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Friday, March 13, 2009
David Harsanyi :: Townhall.com Columnist
There's More to Life Than Science
by David Harsanyi
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This week, President Barack Obama lifted the ban on federal funding for stem cell research that destroys human embryos, and instantly one of the most intellectually deceitful debates of the past decade was reignited.

The president claimed that from now on, we will "make scientific decisions based on facts, not ideology." Others dropped inane phrases regarding the "proper role of science" and the need to "remove politics from science," as if science existed in a vacuum.

To begin with -- though I disagree with the position -- opposition to embryonic stem cell research is not the equivalent of opposition to "science." Opponents have an ethical position that concerns policy. They are not alone.

Many liberals oppose the expansion of nuclear energy or genetically modified foods, to offer just two examples. Why would they stand in the way of science? Well, I assume, they hold some principled reservations about the repercussions of those activities.

And if scientific decisions -- or "facts" -- should be the sole driver of policy, then why are the proponents of embryonic stem cell research placing any restrictions on the research?

After all, Congress clamps constraints on science all the time. In this case, limits (some coming via the wonderfully named Dickey-Wicker Amendment) ban the use of taxpayer funds to directly fund creation of and experimentation on human embryos within private clinics and also outlaw cloning.

Do you find cloning immoral or just super creepy? What if cloning held the potential to cure some menacing ailment or appreciably enhance our quality of life? Would it be less scary? Less wicked? Would you support it then?

Whatever the answer, those are moral queries, not "factual" ones. So why, then, is Washington selecting which discipline is tolerable and which one isn't? Aren't we simply placing a new morality on science?

For instance, why does Washington ban women from producing embryos for the sole purpose of having them destroyed later in the name of science? Isn't such a prohibition a moral and ideological question, as well? It is a woman's choice, is it not, to destroy her fetus without having to provide any justification? Then why should that same woman be barred from creating an embryo to potentially cure diabetes?

Science doesn't fret over motives. Why does Washington?

Now, even if Obama meant it (and obviously he doesn't), allowing scientists to run policy could bring spectacularly dreadful consequences. We do not forfeit our tax policy to economists. Doctors do not run the health care industry. We don't let climatologists administrate energy policy, or we all would be cycling to community gardens for dinner and using solar panels to shield us from the cold, driving rain at night.

By permitting government to get into the embryonic stem cell funding business -- which, despite what some reports claimed, never was "banned" -- the issue was politicized by the White House. Washington funding, however it is allocated, threatens to generate and promote an industry of embryo creation and destruction in the name of research.

Whether you believe the existence of such an industry is a moral crisis or not is one thing. I don't know. But I do know that whatever promise stem cell research holds, it doesn't erase the fact that embryos aren't merely clusters of cells, but the initial stages of human life. That is about the only scientific "fact" in this debate.

After referring to budgets as "moral documents," some Democrats who support funding embryo destruction research demand hypocritically that their opponents expunge ideology from an issue that actually holds ethical implications.

Worse, they have dismissed anyone who opposes them as an anti-science troglodyte. It's a nifty way to undermine a debate. It's unfortunate, though, because this complex issue deserves more than cheap political posturing.

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No surpise
The AGW crowd has done the same thing to climate "science".

The leftists in Congress use "science" as an excuse for murder or degradation of life. If anyone disagrees with their "science" they are immediately labeled crackpots or deniers even though they have FACTS on their side. If you label someone a crackpot or denier, you don't have to listen to anything they have to say. Then they can say "the debate is over, we won". That's not the science I grew up with.

Methuseia
Your claim that leftists use science as an excuse for murder is ridiculous.

Perhaps you didn't notice that the goal of stem-cell research funding is to eventually cure hundreds of thousands of humans suffering from horrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, blood cancers (e.g., leukemia), and so on.

George W. Bush (a crackpot for sure) set back this research for 6-8 years. As a result, hundreds of thousands of adults will die needlessly during the 6-8 year period before the research is completed.

"Dr."
"Perhaps you didn't notice that the goal of stem-cell research funding is to eventually cure hundreds of thousands of humans suffering from horrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, blood cancers (e.g., leukemia), and so on."

Perhaps you didn't notice that hESC research was not banned by Bush. He banned funding for any NEW lines of embryos. Any existing lines would still be funded and he NEVER banned PRIVATE funding.
While you look up that material simmer in this: adult stem cell research has be proven to be effective whereas embryonic stem cell research has proven ineffective at best. At worst, it has caused multiple brain tumors. Adult stem cells can also be altered to have the same properties as embryonic stem cells without all the problems of embryonic stem cells.
I think I'll stick with the science that doesn't have the morality questions. You can tell yourself all day long, and by your posts, you probably would, that killing an embryo is not murder but you really won't know that for a fact until the day you die. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution. If an embryo did have a soul, and God is real, my conscience will be clear knowing that I never willing murdered anyone. On the other hand, if an embryo has a soul and God is real, what do you think YOUR final destination will be. You choose your own path.

Oh, by the way
Obama is a leftist and he voted against medical treatment for BABIES that were BORN after a botched abortion. If the baby has signs of life then letting it to die is tantamount to murder.
Let me guess, do you believe that since the mother didn't want the baby, it's ok to let it die because once she made the decision to kill it, the baby no longer is human?
I'm not even religious and I can see the moral problems with all this cr@p. It makes me sad to see so many amoral people in this world.

If,
If its anti-science to oppose killing embryonic human beings for research purposes then its anti-science to oppose killing adult human beings for research purposes too.

Once you permit sacrificing the lives of some innocent human beings for the good of others you leave no barrier in place to say that ANY human being should not be sacrificed if others might benefit from his/her death.

If innocent, embryonic humans can be sacrificed for research WHY NOT use convicted murderers for research so that they could be a benefit to society?

If innocent, embryonic humans can be sacrificed for the good of others WHY NOT kill prisoners, the mentally ill, and the severely handicapped so that their useful organs can be transplanted into those who need them?

If your elderly relatives are burning through all their money on hospital bills while their nice house sits empty and suffers from lack of maintenance WHY NOT kill them (mercifully, of course), so that you can use the money productively starting a business and raise your kids in a nice house?

Either a human being has inherent human rights based on nothing but the DNA that shows him/her to be part of the species Homo sapiens sapiens or there is no reason that any human being can't be murdered or enslaved by another other human being who chooses to do so.

reasonable column
Harsanyi, like Chapman, is one of the more reaosnable of conservative columns, so he manages to avoid the mistakes that most of the attacks on Obama's lifting of the ban make. That is he does not offer bad science in making the case for the separation of ethics and science.

What Obama is doing is the right thing. He is having standards set by the government agency that is in the best position to set the standards. But Harsanyi is right that that does not remove either the ethical or political considerations except to the degree that it puts them in the hands of a bureaucracy that is not as open to external political pressure.

There are many issues on which Obama's claim to be putting scientific decisions back in the hands of scientists would make sense. This really isn't one of them since if one ignores the bad faith arguments that embryonic stem cells do not really hold great promise, the issues being debated here are not really the scientific ones.

The honest debate would acknoledge that placing limits on such funding will mean people suffering who would not otherwise have to suffer, and then ask whether morality favors doing the research. In some cases the answer will be no. It seems doubtful in the case of research on discarded embryos.

removing moral values from science
David--Excellent column! Interesting that Obama draws the line, so to speak, at cloning humans. Pray tell, is it a moral aspect of cloning that leads him to do so? Oh, right, it's just to prevent overpopulation!!! So many daily decisions are indeed based on values (buying so-called "fair trade" products, leaving a light on in an unoccupied room, pulling a "weed" from the garden, choosing not to shop at Wal-Mart, etc.), I'd think Obama might be trying to--what's the word? Oh yeah--"hoodwink" us!

Joecr
Making decisions baed on science has a place but it also sounds like the mantra of the communist to justify actions against our moral values. And face is, much of science we are taught to use for decision making are hypothesis based on incomplete science and really science fiction written by ideology. It's fertile ground is in education where young idealistic minds look for cures for a world that tries our souls.

Oppose Power Manipulator BO
OPERATION CREATION
The Eve of Man’s Manipulation

Dying for designer genes
Trying every new pair
Acid washed, custom made
Branded DNA wear

We the people have a greed
A better breed’s the answer
Our self-enhancing power only
Spreading like a cancer

Scientists increase their scope
Scalpels, needles, knives
Off they go down the slope
Crashing into lives

They break into the master plan
And make a master copy
They try to freeze a mortal man
And throw away the floppy

Oh highest tech intellect
Think about the scar
Think before dissecting us
Controlling who we are

You scrub away and scour
And carefully inspect us
With microscopic power
You claim you can perfect us

So slipping down the slope we go
To the deep abyss below
Design a mind, create a face
A polished, finished human race...

Copyright Mary Beth Lavin/Lavinia Publishing 2009
http://www.marybethlavin.com

God gave us intelligence
Let's use it.

A stem cell is capable of becoming virtually any other cell in the human body, therefore it's value is that it can be studied. It can become skin, bone, heart tissue, nerve, etc.

Stem cell does not mean brain stem.

Stem cells can become cancer cells and help medical science learn more about treating cancer without harming healthy cells.

They are a by-product of the embryos that are not used by fertility clinics and which are discarded. Is it better to throw them away or use them to help mankind?

When a stem cell dies that is not a person who dies any more than if I cut my finger and my living blood runs out and dies did I die.

At some stage of development, when a fetus dies a person dies. I recognize the debate about when a fetus becomes a person.

When a human cell dies a person doesn't die. The cells in our bodies and on our skin are dying all the time and being replaced by others.

Is stem cell research cloning? Sure. It involves the cloning of cells that can be studied, not people like Frankenstein's Monster.

The cloning of stem cells is a far different issue than the cloning of living, breathing, thinking human beings.

Will the cloning of stem cells take us closer to our ability to clone human beings? Perhaps. And when that day comes mankind will have to search its soul. But that day is not today.

Will we live longer because of stem cell research? We might have that potential but remember that under socialized medicine the government,s present plan is to decide when the cost of your upkeep has become too great and it is time for you to exit this life.

Chuckles


Chuck,
You are wrong.

Embryonic stem cells (one of 3 separate types of stem cell), are "by products" of embryonic human beings who happens to die in the way transplant organs are "by products" of older human beings who happen to die.

Rather, they are obtained by intentionally killing live, embryonic human beings -- just as if doctors were obtaining hearts for transplant by cutting them out of live donor -- who then died from having no heart.

As for the idea of these embryonic human beings being thrown away anyway, ...

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Its nothing short of evil to conceive human life and than destroy it no matter how you try to spin the matter.

Credit To Harsanyi
This is indeed a rational article, which is a bit of a rarity on TH. COmpared to yesterday's completely loony piece by Michael Reagan, this one positively shouts out intelligence and logic.

Still, it ultimately falls flat. For one thing, no one anywhere is suggesting that ethics do not have a place in scientific research. Any research involving human subjects must address a maze of safety and ethical issues: any implication the contrary us simply false.

However, addressing ethical issues does not assure that your particular ethical sensibility will win the day. Many serious religious folks find the development of military hardware and technology to be morally depraved. Do any on the right suggest we stop military R&D efforts because some Quakers disapprove?

None of the commentators point out that current law dictates that embryos are NOT provided the protections due to full fledged human beings. In that context, Obama's decision makes perfect sense.

Harsanyi completely ignores the overall context in which Obama's effort to separate science and ideology takes place. The right wing (it really comes from no where else) wants to infuse creationism in the science class. There is a strong predisposition on the right to ignore entire fields of science, such as astro-physics, astronomy, physics, geology, and the assorted basci sciences that prove the world is over 7,000 years old. The Bush administration hired an oil company executive to literally re-write reports that gave too much credence to global warming research. The Bush admin emphasis on abstinence only sex ed has no scientific basis at all, but is purely an ideological imposition.





The Liberal View - As I see it - Part 1
Mr. Harsanyi Post is one of the better thought out arguments I have read against stem cell. I would like to provide some clarification or counter arguments.

When Obama made the statement; "make scientific decisions based on facts, not ideology." - This was broader statement that goes beyond stem cell research. This was a jab at the Bush administration that made science a political arm. Where science was manipulated if it didn't confirm to their politics. He is vowing to let scientists do science without politics getting in the way. Not to make policy, but give us objective information to make decisions.

Mr. Harsanyi makes a persuassive point that liberals oppose nuclear energy and food genetic engineering. This is akin to being against stem-cells.

I do see a difference. Liberals did not stop the science of nuclear energy or food engineering. This research continues today. They are stopping/opposing the application until we know more and have data or systems in place that says it is safe. It is no different than the FDA getting test results before determining a drug is safe.

Yes there are extreme left-wingers that will always be against nuclear or food genetic engineering no matter what, but they are the extreme minority.

Opponents to stem cell want to stop the science before we have the data to determine its safety and use. To me this is an extreme view akin the left-wingers I mention above.

The Liberal View - As I see it - Part 2
There is another liberal view. Conservatives in generally are viewed as anti-science when it conflicts with their ideology.

Being anti-stem cell is just another in a long line of other anti-science theories such as evolution and global warming.

Conservatives are viewed as rigid and will not change or reconsider their positions when science conflicts with their philosophy and beliefs. They would rather attack science and scientists as atheists or immoral. After all Conservatives do not attack the theory of gravity, string theory, quantum mechanics, or relativity because there is no impact to their politics and beliefs.


Second - There is no credibility on being pro-life. Being anti-abortion and stem cell is all about protecting life before birth. It is a cheap position to take becasue it costs the government no money.

But once a child is born, there is very little in conservative philosophy to help children and people improve the overall quality of life. US Infant mortality is very high, health care for children, education, homlessness anf of course the death penality. This is becasue it is complex to fix and it costs the government money. So they take the easy way out and claim personal responsibility or it is your fault your poor.


chuck
"Two wrongs don't make a right" - chuck

You would be correct if you assume the "faith based" assumption that abortion is "wrong." Wrong means incorrect, so I assume you are using the word as in "morally" wrong, which only proves Obama's point about accepting facts over religious ideology.

You can't prove or disprove there is a God anymore than you can prove when exactly a life begins. Some believe it begins at conception some believe it begins much later. Their is no soul detector that can scientifically validate when exactly life begins or that there is a soul at all. We can scientifically prove that when a breathing human stops breathing, the brain stops firing signals and when there is no longer a heart beat (from a developed heart)they are deceased. The problem is when you equate that to the beginning of a life, all of those things happen in different stages of development. So, without agreement or proof, it is merely speculation. If we dismiss scientific progress because of a religious belief, we impede on the American right to choose our own faith and thus, allow one faith to force its view on the rest. Even if having no faith is your faith. I am a Christian that believes in science and American Rights as well as God. The price of freedom will always be paid for with a tolerance for other peoples’ beliefs. Even when we find them intolerable.

The difference
Science dictates whether we can, morals dictate whether we should.

Sorry chuck
My last post was for Mother of 4 - my bad
I don't want to misquote you.

Wade
"I am a Christian that believes in science and American Rights as well as God. The price of freedom will always be paid for with a tolerance for other peoples’ beliefs. Even when we find them intolerable."

Very interested in knowing what makes you a Christian?

Wade
"The price of freedom will always be paid for with a tolerance for other peoples’ beliefs. Even when we find them intolerable."

The price of freedom will always be paid for with a tolerance for other peoples’ beliefs. Even when we find them intolerable.”

Are you for real? Are you saying that we could have paid for freedom by tolerating Hitler, Mengele’s “beliefs” which led to their murderous and heimous atrocities?

“Even when we find them intolerable/” means that anyone with an ounce of integrity or backbone does not tolerate the intolerable.

Intolerable – meaning that you can’t , you won’t tolerate the intolerable.

Chritian faith
Overall, I believe in a Christian God but I respect the fact that I don't have all the answers. Nor will I dismiss another persons faith because we can find answers in many different ways. I know that puts me at odds with some Christians but I feel only ignorant people consider their wisdom absolute. There is room to debate and I think we were given our superior brains and free will to exercise them as much as we can. Blindly excepting things is to ignore those God given gifts.

4US - Your missing the point
Hitler wasn't protected by the constitution which makes that point out of context and stupid. Also, murder/death as I explained, is a universal no-brainer being that science can prove it exists. I'm talking about the theology behind the creation of life. We as humans differ on just when that happens and because their is no absolute proof that we all except, it is up for debate. So using American law to settle a religious debate is theology over fact, making it a matter of faith which is a thing we must, as Americans Tolerate. Some find other religions as a whole intolerable. By your reasoning we should not tolerate the beliefs of other people making your patriotism a joke. I'm I correct in that assumption? Oh and by the way, Hitler decided that he could no longer tolerate the Jews making them intolerable. Are you saying that Hitler had "integrity" and "backbone"?

BARACK HUSSEIN ALLENDE

Barack Hussein Obama rode on the back of the antiwar movement into presidential history. No toppling of Saddam Hussein, no President B. Hussein Obama. The man with the middle name “Hussein” opposed the forceful ousting of Saddam by U.S. forces believing that he could have been stopped, tamed and contained-a completely wrongheaded view as the man's terrorist activities were uncontainable and dangerously growing. But I wonder, is it mere happenstance that Obama shares the same name as the ill starred dictator, the name "Hussein?" Is his own middle name a warning to Obama about the fate he could suffer if he goes too far in his transformational project to Europeanize, collectivize and restructure capitalist America?

When comparing both men I noticed that Obama shares one very troubling trait with Saddam: recklessness. Indeed, like Saddam no catastrophe is too big or disaster too great to bring Obama to his senses and stop him.

Click my name and read the rest of The Man With Hussein for his Middle Name, or Barack Hussein Allende

ApolloSpeaks
Mr. ApolloSpeaks seems to think that 90,000 dead people by the hand of the U.S. because of a mistake can be justified by the hanging of a dictator. I do not. Also, do you think every guy named John is a saint like Saint John or a killer like John Wayne Gacy? Maybe their name is just John and in control of their own destiny. You are a Moron!

stedes - On parsing conservatives
--
As stedes probably knows, when I say "conservative," I specify true American conservatives - people like H.L. Mencken, Robert Heinlein, Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, Henry Hazlitt, Presidents Jefferson and Cleveland - who, together with Europeans like Cobden and Bright and Bastiat and Adam Smith were what the 19th Century came to call liberals.

Defenders of the rights of the individual human being against the tyrannies of civil government.

Now we have to say "classic liberals" because the term "Liberal" has been morphed by progressives and other malignant statists into meaning "milk-and-water socialist."


Unfortunately, the 70-year-war against Soviet Socialism (the blood-and-vitriol form of socialism) engaged under the conservative banner all sorts of sordid sonsofbitches who are in NO way to be considered true American conservatives, including the "court party" Rockefeller Republicans, the imperialist neo-con ex-Democrats, and the damnfool fellahin of the traditionalist/ religious/ "social" pseudoconservatives, the Christers.

You know. The same @ssholes who made that gaudy spectacle in and around Dayton, Tennessee, during the Scopes "monkey" trial.


Thus when stedes writes:

"Conservatives are viewed as rigid and will not change or reconsider their positions when science conflicts with their philosophy and beliefs."

...he is confusing real American conservatives for these masquerading mamzers, the religious whackjobs in whom "beliefs" trump the function of the reasoning mind.


These critters are not true conservatives. Never were. Indeed, if you strike them upon the one topic that American conservatives defend to the death - the individual's right to a property in his (or her) own person - they fold like cheap tissue paper.

And blow away.

They're state-sucking tyrants with an odor of sanctimony about 'em, and nothing more.

--

Apollospeaks
I would rather a Barack Obama Allende than a Dick Cheney Pinochet. Follow you history buddy, your shallow critiques expose a deep well of ignorance.

Mr Douglas
"Perhaps you didn't notice that the goal of stem-cell research funding is to eventually cure hundreds of thousands of humans suffering from horrible diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, blood cancers (e.g., leukemia), and so on."

You are more ignorant than I though - better stick to emotions and leave real science to the adults. Perhaps you didn't notice that embryonic stem cells have shown ZERO promise and tend to go wild. Perhaps you didn't notice that adult cells have a demonstrated history of success. Perhaps you didn't notice that enjecting embyronic stem cells has caused tumors in the patients. Cells from skin also come with a cancer risk.

"George W. Bush (a crackpot for sure) set back this research for 6-8 years. As a result, hundreds of thousands of adults will die needlessly during the 6-8 year period before the research is completed."

Hand-wringing ad hominem liberal stupidity with NOTHING to back it up. Obama is the most anti-life president ever, and had just politicized a debate that should be about ethics. This is about money and greed, not life. What cave do you live in?

Wade
"You can't prove or disprove there is a God anymore than you can prove when exactly a life begins."

This is the most stupid, unscientific statement that I have seen in a long time. God is irrelevant - it is scientifically clear that the fertilization of an egg of any species produces a new and unique life. Just watch one under a microscope if you don't believe it. Why don't you debate honestly?

My prediction
After four years of gov funded embryonic stem cell research not producing any good results, the left will simply say either that not enough money has been spent on it, or they will claim it a success because they exhausted that avenue.

stedes
You are quite ignorant.

"But once a child is born, there is very little in conservative philosophy to help children and people improve the overall quality of life."

Conservatives give more and do more to help than do big-mouth liberals. Read the stats.

rich d
You’re right, God is irrelevant in this context, that is my whole point. My post was in response to the post written by “Mother of 4.”


“Two wrongs don't make a right.
Its nothing short of evil to conceive human life and than destroy it no matter how you try to spin the matter.” - Mother of 4

If you assign “evil” to the argument then right or wrong comes to in play and science based interpretations are not the main focus anymore. However, the national argument in opposition to stem cell research, as you know, is not science based either and that also was my point.

In response to your “microscope” view, if you assign the same things that are required to sustain life or take away life and translate them to creating life your assessment doesn’t work. Why then wouldn’t life begin on the same rational as when it ends. Heartbeats and breathing to name a few. My point is simple, we can not agree when life begins, period. Without a definite right who can designate wrong? Only those with reasons of morality proclaim absolute clarity.

Rich D
Excellent posts!

I hope someone points out to wade et al. that the CYCLE of life begins at conception. At that point life begins. Once we are conceived, all that is left is the framework of the body to be developed, born, live and die.

Life begins and ends. Life begins at conception,ends at death. Everything in between is a stage or phase for a human.

Trying to assign a point where life begins can not be done. It began at conception, not before, not after.

Obama Don't Know What he Signs

Obama Signs Law Banning Federal
Embryo Research Two Days After
Signing Executive Order to OK It
CNS News, by Terence P. Jeffrey

"On Wednesday, only two days after he lifted President Bush’s executive order banning federal funding of stem cell research that requires the destruction of human embryos, President Barack Obama signed a law that explicitly bans federal funding of any ''research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death.''

The provision was buried in the 465-page omnibus appropriations bill that Obama signed Wednesday."

RetGeek - Ooh, good pick-up
--
Remarks Retired Geek on our Merry Marvelous Marxist Moolie Messiah's amazing public contortionist act (i.e., stuffing his own head up his presidential @ss) as he:

"...signed a law that explicitly bans federal funding of any 'research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death.'"


Gotta thank you for that one, RetGeek. The MSM root weevils certainly haven't remarked on it (and doubtless will keep this on the Barry-worshipping down-low).

Goes to show you what some crafty congresscritters can slip past even a slick sonofabitch like Hussein the Hubshi.





=====
"It is impossible to introduce into society a greater change and a greater evil than this: the conversion of the law into an instrument of plunder."

-- Frederic Bastiat

Wade
"If you assign “evil” to the argument then right or wrong comes to in play and science based interpretations are not the main focus anymore. However, the national argument in opposition to stem cell research, as you know, is not science based either and that also was my point."

Of course! Are you going to argue that science should be divorced from ethics? Do you have no sense of right and wrong, or are laws just arbitrary to you?

"In response to your “microscope” view, if you assign the same things that are required to sustain life or take away life and translate them to creating life your assessment doesn’t work. Why then wouldn’t life begin on the same rational [sic - rationale?] as when it ends."

These two sentences don't make any sense to me. How does life begin on a rationale? What are you arguing?

moral authority?
Is Obama declaring himself to be the untimate moral authority? He will decide when there is or is not a moral contradiction between scientific experimentation and ethical human considerations. He will politically stamp his approval or withhold it based on his own moral values, but the American people, the majority of which do not necessarily agree with his morals, can have no say in the matter.

fact or myth
it is a statistically proved fact in a large random survey that a larger proportion of women that have ungone an abortion in the past feel a strong revulsion and regret for their decision than those that are ok with it.

and gee if we could eliminate all the greenhouse gas and carbon dioxide the science of life says: plants cannot survive with out carbon dioxide. planet earth would be an ice ball and lose its water and atmosphere as mars did in the past millenium. science fact.


To 4US
If the President of the United States is not called upon to make decisions with moral authority, then why are the American people so interested, during a Presidential campaign, in his religious beliefs and moral positions on a variety of issues? During the past debate, we had televised debates organized by the clergy for the specific purpose of exposing the candidates' views and beliefs on subjects touching on morality. Our form of government does indeed expect the President to make decisions, many and major, that influence life for all of us. We do not conduct a popular election on every issue or refer every issue to the Congress for legislation: sometimes the President makes an Executive decision. So, yes, sometimes our President does act as the ultimate moral authority. Bush certainly did this when he stopped federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research: now Obama is doing the same when he reinstates it. Bush acted as the ultimate moral authority when he stopped US funding of overseas health agencies that permit abortion: now Obama does the same by reinstating that funding. Sounds as if you object to "moral authority" only when you disagree with it.

To lilly
Bush stopped funding for embryonic stem cell research at the behest of millions of Americans who asked him to intervene. Never was research forbidden or stopped, there were lines of embyonic cells available and, if there had been any indication that this research was indeed sound and showed probability of “break-through” discoveries in healing and or treatment, there would have been sufficient money from private sources to keep it going. Private research has found that adult stem cells are giving good results, and no life has to sacrificed in the process.

Bush never made himself the final authority as Obama evidently wants to be. Obama has said plainly enough that it doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks, there will be no discussion of the matter. Nothing will get in the way of what he considers to be “sound science.”

Bush only stopped funding. The money flow. Obama has stopped the democratic process. The idea flow.

Blastocysts
Would Moses have recognized a blastocyst as an object of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" when he came up with that commandment? Would a member of an indigenous, uncontacted tribe that has a sanction against murder include a blastocyst in that sanction? It took science to identify a blastocyst for what it is.

As it has been for as long as science has produced devices and processes that can be used for good or bad, society will evaluate and control use of the results of embryonic stem cell research.

Carry on science!

garryg24
Garryg24 said, “As it has been for as long as science has produced devices and processes that can be used for good or bad, society will evaluate and control use of the results of embryonic stem cell research.”

You have stated the process that Obama is trying to squelch: society will evaluate and control use of the results of embryonic stem cell research.

You must have heard him. Science will not be subject to any political processes. How else can society evaluate and control anything except through the political process? Oh, sure, after destruction of life and the cheapening of all life as a result, the “market” can either buy it or reject it?

We are not necessarily a free market system any longer. Nor a democracy.



Retired Geek said
"On Wednesday, only two days after he lifted President Bush’s executive order banning federal funding of stem cell research that requires the destruction of human embryos, President Barack Obama signed a law that explicitly bans federal funding of any ''research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death.''

This would be good news except for the fact that the Dems may have support of some supposedly "pro-life" Reps to repeal the Dickey-Wicker amendment that has stopped federal funding for 8 years now.


Good posts. Thank you.

Papal Encyclical
Our Holy Father's long delay in issuing his next "letter" may have this reason: He's waiting to see Obama's approach to the life issue. Well, Father, we've seen it.

Re: Morality and ethics..
"embryos aren't merely clusters of cells, but the initial stages of human life"
So is every single sperm and ovum, yet we "destroy" them, or they self-destruct, without a second thought. "Potential human life" is such a vague and idiotic terminology that it boggles the mind. A human life, while in its earliest stages of development, leads a parasitic existence. It is up to the host, whether that life-form should or should not conclude to becoming a "human being". I consider a "human" life, "human" (with all the rights bestowed on them by the Constitution"), once it is able to exist outside a womb, even if it needs a life support system. My definition is closer to reason than all these debates of "do-gooders", and self-proclaimed defenders of life put together. It's none of anyone's business what my "free will" decides to do with the "earliest stages of human life" of my progenitors. I am endowed by MY Creator to exercise MY free will, as long as I don't hurt anyone's life with it!!
As far as embryos in test tubes are concerned, no one "robs" them form their "parents". They are given up by the parents. What their destiny is, it should not be anyone's business. All this "morality" and "ethics" debaters should exercise their morality and ethics on themselves, not anyone else!

rich d
My argument is simple, some think life begins at conception. Those that practice birth control do not. Both may have arguments against abortion but only one may take issue with stem cell research. My second point you questioned was written to illustrate that we can all agree, being for reasons of science, religion or law, just when life ends. We all can’t agree when it begins. Remember that when people believe different things with moral overtones both think they are right. We have a lot of people in this country that believe in both. Which is wrong and which is right? I think because we can’t agree is evidence that a “right” has not been proven. I’m sure you have seen the anti-abortion stickers on cars that read “abortion stops a beating heart” right? Even though there is debate on that issue, if we take the position that the stickers are right and it does stop a beating heart. What about the lungs? Lungs take much longer to develop and yet are just as important as a heart to sustain life. Both have to stop working to be pronounced dead. Why does that not translate to pronounce life?

Christian, Thou shalt not kill

Some arguments from posters border on ridiculous considering science and the pro-abortion camp concede that life begins at conception. Dr.Fritz Baumgartner states the evidence succinctly:

“There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate.”

The following Scripture may be meaningless to non-believers, but to those of Christian or Orthodox Jewish faith this confirms that there is an individual life in the womb from the time of conception.

Psalm 139:13-16
“You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body
and knit me together in my mother’s womb.
Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.
You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,
as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.”

It appears that those posters who continue to try to justify embryonic stem cell reasearch and abortion by claiming that “blastocysts” or fetuses in some early stage of development are not really human life are trying to convince themselves that it is alright. If they claim to be Christian, they do have a problem as do the so-called Christian politicians who advocate “choice.” How diffidult is it for one to understand that taking an innocent life is murder?

Christian, God said, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Get real...
Anyone who has a semi-functioning BS detector handy should hear it sounding loud and clear when someone says "I value all life."

It is a lovely sentiment, like saying "my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world" or "my kids are the smartest kids on the planet." But let's get real: how often do you think about the child soldiers in Sierra Leone? Does Operation Murambatsvina keep you up at night? Please.

The truth is, we ALL prioritize. Maybe an embryo is a close enough relative to human life for you to care about it, but how can it hold a candle to a living, breathing, person with friends and relatives and a lifetime of experiences who can speak and tell you he is suffering from a disease? How can you brush this PERSON aside for a CELL? In a perfect world we could save the cell and the person, and we'd never have any moral conflicts, but in this world we have to butter our bread on one side.

This is, of course, assuming that embryos are essential for research with high potential for curing diseases, which experts say that it is. If you have an INFORMED opinion on the subject and disagree, that's a separate issue.

Best post of the DAY!
"twomay"

Keep them coming!

Hypocrisy scholar
President Obama is a Hypocrisy scholar, but does he care? No, because he’s too intelligent not to know when he’s being hypocritical, so he chooses to be anyway. He obviously thinks most people are too stupid to notice. Are you?

I guess I am John T.
I like Obama. I think it is impossible to be President and not be hypocrital. New challenges sometimes go against previous statements, especially when a “candidate” gets into that Whitehouse with all its power an knowledge. I do not envy the President and the job he has to perform and the decisions he has to make.

@stedes (reply #14)
Bravo!

Indeed, it's easier to champion a position that requires little to no investment. Seriously, I don't see the pro-lifers turning out to help the poor kids that they (lifers) helped make. Seems these kids are only a talking point while still in the womb.

Oh yea, I remember now....leave it up to the liberals to take care of them then....

Oh, and to "truth must be told", it's pro-choice, NOT pro-abortion.

Wade
"We all can’t agree when [life] begins."

That is a lie. Biologically, the evidence is clear and indisputable. What we can't agree on is its worth in the earliest stages, calling it position dependent.

"My argument is simple..."

I agree - too simple.

Kevin
Truth must be told was right.

It is pro-abortion.

twomay - Bzzzzt! (sound of BS detector)
"Maybe an embryo is a close enough relative to human life for you to care about it, but how can it hold a candle to a living, breathing, person with friends and relatives and a lifetime of experiences who can speak and tell you he is suffering from a disease?"

That person was exactly an embryo that you would sacrifice. So, life becomes more valuable to you as a function of time? Well, when you mother can no longer speak or take care of yourself and reverts to her preborn state on incontinence, I assume that you will pull the plug.

"How can you brush this PERSON aside for a CELL? In a perfect world we could save the cell and the person, and we'd never have any moral conflicts, but in this world we have to butter our bread on one side."

This is informed opinion and rigorous logic? Why would that world be more perfect? What moral standard of perfection do you use?

"This is, of course, assuming that embryos are essential for research with high potential for curing diseases, which experts say that it is. If you have an INFORMED opinion on the subject and disagree, that's a separate issue."

That is false. The potential and resluts have been shown for adult stem cells. When are you going to inform your opinion?
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