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Friday, March 07, 2008
David Bellavia :: Townhall.com Columnist
America Will Not be Defeated
by David Bellavia
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Starting out in the infantry, as with any profession or vocation, you learn basic skills. Every infantryman learns the same standardized plays-called "battle drills"-which are trained and retrained relentlessly. There are nine such drills in the infantry handbook, but battle drill number three always confused me: breaking contact. Essentially breaking contact is when you quit. You run away because the enemy fire is unrelenting and there is no hope to survive. The only way out is to retreat, or leave the terrain as quickly as possible-breaking contact. As it is with all infantry tactics, you can't just run away when being shot at. Infantrymen shoot their way out of most situations, good or bad.

I must have rehearsed the break contact drill thousands of times during my six years in the infantry. Sometimes we practiced the standard base-of-fire leapfrog and sometimes I taught the famous Australian Peel. These are just fancy ways of getting off the battlefield as quickly as possible with the least amount of causalities. We would constantly go over the fundamentals of retreating from battle, almost as much as we trained for knocking out a bunker or the other rudiments of close quarter's battle.

Those long days in the field practicing retreat were probably the only wasted training I received in my beloved Army. There must have been at least 10 times in battle during my time in Iraq when, according to doctrine, we should have broken contact; but we all knew the deal. We used every other battle drill during our time at war almost on a weekly basis. Taking out bunkers, clearing enemy held buildings and even navigating a couple mine fields, but never breaking contact. From the lowest ranking private to the commander of the battalion we understood the unspoken oath:

Infantry soldiers, Marines ... Americans don't break contact.

This just doesn't happen. We fight to win. And hold our ground. No matter the odds or consequences. Those are the lessons taught to us by our brave predecessors of Vietnam, Korea and World Wars I and II.

For as long as I have been associated with the military and veteran organizations I have always been proud of the company I've kept. As easy as it is to say "never quit" you learn to appreciate those near you who actually live their lives by this warrior ethos. And you are deliberately and forever changed by those near you who die by that same warrior ethos.

I helped found the largest group of non-partisan servicemen and women who serve our great nation at a time of war. Vets for Freedom (Vetsforreedom.org) is a group of my peers that continually make me proud of my veteran status. No other Long War veteran's group from my generation holds more valor awards from the field of battle or purple hearts as Vets for Freedom. What we stand for is always in concert with what we fight for.

As the lone ambassadors of America's Warrior Class we feel strongly that, as long as there is a debate taking place on the merits of the conflicts in which we continue to fight and bleed, we will not only participate, we will lead that debate. No one is more qualified or more deserving of that distinction than those brave souls who have continued to re-enlist, tour after tour, to defend our freedoms.

This is the main reason why VetsforFreedom.org has created the nation-wide Heroes Tour. A bus full of notable, decorated veterans will travel from city to city and tell our stories and thank each city's local heroes fresh from battle.

New York Times bestseller and American patriot Marcus Luttrell, who received the Navy Cross and fought the epic fight in the mountains of Afghanistan that would pit his Navy SEALS against 150 Taliban guerrillas, is on board.

Steve Russell, the Bronze Star with valor holder and Task Force Commander responsible for finding the spider hole holding Saddam Hussein will be there. Jeremiah Workman, a Marine awarded the Navy Cross for the 24 insurgents he helped destroy in house fighting in Fallujah will be there too. The list continues on and on-all warriors who are committed to victory and the destruction of the Islamist extremism that threatens us at home.

We continue to defend our sacrifices almost five years to the day since we were sent to war in Iraq. Our brothers and sisters in the Afghanistan conflict are approaching year seven. Still we have partisans and defeatists climbing over themselves to define what it is we fight against and why it is important to leave before victory is achieved.

By railing against the surge, by cheapening the success on the ground today in Iraq, these shameful Moveon.org-controlled senators and representatives have bet against our Warrior Class in America. As members of that fraternity, my peers and I again are pushing back against this infectious defeatism.

In the name of partisan election cycle politics, television commercials and campaign talking points are now openly designed to sap the will of the American people. This is an effort to take from veterans the honorable and attainable victory our beloved friends gave their lives in exchange. Like the Islamist threat overseas, this dogma will be met head on. We cannot allow the selfish advancement of political agendas to transcend the blood sacrifices made in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bet on this... we will not be defeated.

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About The Author


David Bellavia is co-founder of Vets for Freedom and author of “House to House: A Soldier’s Memoir” (coming to paperback March 18th).

 
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I don't know mr. Bellavia,
liberals have this way of snatching defeat from the hands of victory. They have a way of losing fights with 90lb. weaklings. But please continue the good fight!

David
I too salute you. Greenhornet, you are so right about propaganda, Gen. Giap said they were ready to surrender within days until the media and other leftist had declared the war lost, and it gave them something to hold on too. The left aided and abetted then and they are doing it now. They need to leave the defense of America to people with a spine, like David and many others.

KC
Msgt USAF (Ret)

David, Thank you for your service...
I hope you become a regular contributor to TH. I look forward to your next colomn. :)

JD's Handsome Son said:
"Forty years ago the nation simply wanted the war to end because they saw that our leaders did not understand how to win."
I must quibble a bit with your statement, heres why:
The cost of lives lost, and the way the press presented that loss led to a gradual weakening of resolve on the part of the people. The turning point was the Life or Look magazine edition that published the high-school yearbook photos of the people lost in one week. It was an entire class of an average sized high school in dead.
You are right, the leadership failed to carry their burden, just as now, but propaganda turned the American psyche, and tipped the political scales enough for RMS to be elected on a pledge to "end the war." Sound familar? BTW RMS didn't end the war in his first term, as I recall.
I agree with every one of your other observations and conclusions. And, I was there.

Mr. Bellavia
Thank you for your service, may God bless you, and may he prosper your Vets for Freedom movement.

I think that it will be difficult for your organization to remain nonpartisan. No serious Democratic Presidential candidate supported the war in Iraq. No serious Republican candidate opposed it. There must be a few Democrats on the side of victory, but the only one who comes to mind is Sen. Lieberman -- and the Democrats forced him out of the party for it.

Your last paragraph echoes the Gettysburg Address. From our honored, we are to draw increased devotion to the cause, and by carrying on resolutely to victory, ensure that your "beloved friends" have not died in vain.

I've never been able to fathom how some American's can't understand this point.

wobbie: YOU have no business posting

on this column by David Bellavia.

In fact, every single word you post, you demonstrate just how ignorant and foolish you are.

You are shameful, and a disgrace.


Robert you are
the most disgusting excuse for a human that this earth has ever had the misfortune of spawning. Crawl back to your rock, you miserable excuse for excrement. You are not fit to lick the boots of Mr. Bellavia or his brothers in arms. You need to crawl off to a corner and thank the good Lord in heaven that these brave soldiers are standing between you and those who would cut your head off rather than look at you.

From one vet to another my most sincere thanks to you, David, and all vets everywhere. If freedom is lost it won't be for our lack of trying!

Welcome home soldier !

I am in awe of your honorable service for our country.Permit me to say Thank You for the spineless twits of the loony left who prefer defeat.
I'll donate to your website in support of the tour.

Military Pride
I've been active duty Navy for 25 years now. I've seen huge changes in our military, from the technology and weapons, to new policies, new programs, new tactics, etc. But the biggest change is the people. The younger generation does have a lot of different ideas, different standards. But what hasn't changed, even in the younger generation, is pride. Pride in our country, pride in our military, and pride in their service. When things are slow, they like to gripe and complain, goof off and generally make you wonder what they are thinking. But when it's time to make it count, when it's important, they are right there, ready to do whatever it takes to get the job done.
Others posting here are right, the civilian leadership either doesn't have the guts to do what needs to be done, or they've got some other agenda in mind. And the people, being fed the propaganda they are, are buying into it. One of the two remaining democrat candidates made a statement about the "wasted lives" in Iraq. I don't care if you agree with the war or not, anytime an American servicemember gives his life in defense of our country, to call that life wasted is an unthinkable travesty. Especially from one who aspires to be our next Commander in Chief.

wobbie just gets more irrational and

incoherent with every post.

One of the sure signs of mental and emotional deterioration.

Won't be too long before he's totally lost it.



Simply
Beneath contempt Wobbie. Find your rock.

God bless you!
Thanks for your service to our country,sir.

You are among the people who have ALWAYS made me proud of America.

I think Robbie
just needs a good arse kicking.

Thank you serviceman
Whenever there is debate on policy in our country, it should be done with the recognition that our fighting force is made up of the noblest people on the planet.

And I agree with you that America will not be defeated.

How a linkage was made between Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds and what they do with their lives to the “success” of our troops is something that has yet to be explained.

You did what you were told to do, and now the people in that region must form governments that they support along with the functioning police forces and armies that go along with those governments.

Using our troops to prop up a government involving three groups of people who do not want to live under the same government, and therefore will never form a functioning police force or army, is a waste of time. Nothing “defeatist” about that -- simply recognition of how governments form.

And, JD's Son, wobbie has YET to explain

just how or why a (supposed) Navy Capt., pilot no less, would be doing patrols in Iraq!

Go figure...



JD's Son
Thank you. Absolutly true, must be awful to be so miserable.

I second the motion Anne ...well said!

Robert
you are calling someone immature? Read your posts every last one is nothing but ridicule, insult and put down, and you call him immature. You post here and come off as some little b!tch, you say you were in the military and the way you come off is you were an ace, the next best thing to Patton, Mac Arthur, and Sun Tzu. Walter Mitty may be. I work with a guy who starts his day lying and and doesn't stop until he sleeps, he too claims all this military experience but cannot back it up. You are probably more along the lines of Barney Fife (no insult to Don Knotts) you're just packed so full of shiite you can't find it in yourself to even give the man or anyone else a thumbs up. Are you just that bitter, neglected, unloved, or just so hung up on yourself, the greatest thing since peanuts in shiite right? Why don't you just go away, you are useless. That's right your new name Useless.

POLMsgt
It isn't useless it's a platyhelminth!
(thanks YLG)

America Can Be Bankrupted
Re "America cannot be defeated": Maybe not, but it can sure be bankrupted. The Iraq war is like a tumor that drains the life out of the rest of the body. I do not believe that the American spirit could ever be defeated, but I keep remembering something I learned in a college history course---that the reason the French government so easily fell to the French Revolution was that the king had bankrupted France with wars that he stubbornly insisted on pursuing.

The Iraq War is costing us $10 billion a month. Also, we will have medical expenses to care for just the current crop of war veterans for seventy or eighty years and the longer we stay in Iraq the longer the aftercare will be. And we are nowhere near finished with rebuilding Iraq.

We could reach the point that we can't afford to maintain or replace our infrastructure; can't afford to assist our sick poor, elderly, and disabled; can't properly educate our young. Oooops, we're already there...

Wobbie
What is a gedunk? Tell me, please!

Lilly, Lilly, Lilly
The welfare budget is several times the entire spending on defense, including the Iraq war. The budget this year, thanks to both democrats and republicans is $1,000,000,000,000.00. ONE TRILLION. Quit your bitchin.

Treason doth never prosper.
To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, Americans will be America's author and finisher. If we allow this unchallenged treason and liberalism to continue to infest this nation, we are truly doomed, and the world will lose the best hope for human freedom.

This nation was not created to appease its enemies. It was not created to provide retirement or education or medicine at the expense of the productive. In the protraction of our national interests we must be pro-active in this world, not stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best.

We do not live in a world like Star Trek, where everybody of all nationalities and ethnicities get along in peace. Those of you who disparage our nation in this war on terror and the men and women who fight and die on your behalf do not realize that the very freedom you abuse to make your political points are not enjoyed elsewhere, and if the tyrants and thugs you seem to respect more than your own nation gain more and more control over this world, you will cease to enjoy that freedom. Indeed, often it is the likes of you, the willing dupes, who will be first to be lined up against the wall, because a jilted lover is a dangerous enemy that no tyrant can ever turn his back on.

3wire
If you go to the HHS budget FY2009 you will see an explanation of what you seem not to understand---that this budget covers much more than "welfare".

If you go to the DOD budget FY2009 you will see a peculiar absence: the cost of the Iraq War. Ask yourself why.

Mr. Bellavia
What a terrific column! I am extremely proud of what you have written here and I thank you for your service to our country. I am honored and grateful for all of the brave men and women who put themselves in harm's way every day to defend and secure the many freedoms we enjoy in this country. I will be supporting your Vets for Freedom movement and I look forward to reading more from you. God bless you and God bless America!


Dissenters need not apply...
How dare anyone question Big Brother, I mean the U.S. government! Send them to Room 101 immediately! Alert the Thought Police at once! Traitorous scum!! Remember boys and girls, Big Brother, oops, I mean the U.S. government is keeping us safe. A good Party member never forgets: War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. I guess we can add the following now: Freedom isn't free. Here we have the epitome of Orewellian doublethink to further dumb down -- if that is really possible -- the masses into further acquiescence into total tyranny. Both the fascist neocons and the fabian -socialists liberals are agents of the true enemy: the New World Order.

David
Thank you for your service. I am proud of you and our great military.

A word of Advice
I know I am probably spitting into the wind, but, please ignore the trolls. Your computer mouse has a scroll wheel. Use it. Maybe if we ignore the idiots they'll go away. They certainly don't deserve a response. Just my cut at it.

Retreat or Cut and Run
I've never served in the military and I hold those who serve now and did serve in the highest regard. America has retreated in past wars, or as a marine general put it in Korea, "attacked in a different direction". The American military cannot be defeated in a conventional (non-nuclear) war, but since Viet Nam the liberals in this country have accomplished politically what our enemies could not do on the battlefield.

As long as we have brave men and women who fight in any direction, this country has a chance to survive in the 21st century. The fruitcakes in our country who believe we should only fight on our soil would be the first to surrender when we are attacked, while our soldiers would not retreat and inch.

God bless our military and their families, they are America's only true heroes.

David
"In the name of partisan election cycle politics, television commercials and campaign talking points are now openly designed to sap the will of the American people."

Who provides your funding? How many veterans are members of your organization? Are veterans who think the war in Iraq was a mistake and greatly mismanaged traitors?

" This is an effort to take from veterans the honorable and attainable victory our beloved friends gave their lives in exchange. "

After almost our entire military being tied down in Iraq for over five years please define victory? How do you and your members feel about Osama still thriving and now threatening both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

For the record we have retreated many times. Your bravado is commendable even if your education is lacking. We retreated and then accepted a stalemate in Korea. We retreated from Vietnam. But I am quick to add that those retreats resulted in our Cold War victory and the defeat of the Soviet Union without a shot. Reagan retreated from Lebanon in the early 80's.

Thank you for your service but your article is a misguided political piece

Hoooaah
David, God bless you and your organization. You're the real American heroes !!!! I'm constantly amazed by the defeatists in our congress and our country. Whatever happened to the descendents of those who fought world wars and defeated the mighty war machines of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan???? To think that our elected officials would let our America be defeated by gangs of a few thousand Islamist thugs in Iraq and Afganistan turns my stomach.

Keep up the good fight !!!

From a Proud Vietnam Vet. I salute you.

David Bellavia
I want to express my gratitude for serving our nation and defended my freedom, it is because of people like you that our nation still enjoys the blessing of liberty.

I wish the NY Times..
and the MSM would spend as much time covering the heros of this war as they do portraying it's veterans as either victims or seriously flawed individuals. I happen to be a veteran of both the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts and it sickens me to see how we are portrayed in the MSM.

One view
Sadly, the end game in Iraq will not come down to the actions of the military - it will come down to the actions of the Iraqi's themselves. The principal premise of this administration was that it believed that it could have an impact on the underlying reasons that terror existed, which is that the Middle East was ruled by non-democratic governments who were oppressive - and that had led to the rise of an opposition to those governments that was supported and fueled by Islamic clerics who believed that the only option was to establish Islamic states. When the author says we will not be defeated, he is right only in the context that our forces will not be defeated by any enemy on the ground. However, he can do nothing about the political and cultural realities in the Middle East. He was originally fighting for the establishment of a secular democracy governed by secular courts guided by a written constitution that would be an example to all other Middle Eastern Countries - and would, hopefully, start the process of change. He is now fighting for a quasi-democracy ruled by clerical parties who have implemented the Koran as the basis of civil law, which supercedes the constitution that was written. In such a system, Christians, other religions, and women are second class citizens. Further, the leadership of these parties, and the government, has allied itself with the Palestinians and Hezbollah, against the Israelis, and has repeatedly interceded on behalf of Iran, with whom they have far stronger ties than they do with us. Iraq, as such, has adopted a system that is far closer to the Iranian system, than to ours. He is right to point out the 5 years of sacrifice, and, he is right to insist that we do not simply abandon Iraq to a worse fate - which would be that of a failed state.

Cont'd
However, winning on the ground does not mean that we will have achieved the foreign policy objectve that was the underlying principal of the war. That, in large measure, was lost during the three years that we failed to provide the forces necessary to secure the country, and therefore, to control the process of establishing the type of a government that was what that objectives required. In the end, we will have spent thousands of lives, injured tens of thousands of our own forces, and trillions of our dollars to remove a dictator and re-establish a relativelys stable government. However, the actual impact on the so-called war on terror will have been minimal - as the underlying premises of terror still exist in a dozen other middle eastern countries - and we have neither the forces nor money to engage in a decade or more of nation building in each of those states. And, the principal architect of 9/11 still lives, and still leads.


David... An apology is in order...

Unfortunately, some people come to TH for NO OTHER REASON than to insult and denigrate the host, TH, and the other posters and writers, and in this case, you, the "Guest of Honor."

Although TH has asked these party crashers to leave because their behavior is totally unacceptable, they KEEP COMING BACK!

At some point the guests have had enough and push back.

Most of us at TH are very protective of our troops, and don't take kindly to anyone contradicting, insulting, and talking down to the very people who are putting their lives on the line for us...

Thank you.







To All You Oh So Cleaver Naysayers
Pukes et al.

Prehaps I just haven't heard of you but where are your columns? Who publishes what you write? Have you ever been paid for writing?

Good thing you live in a free nation, defended by people such as David, so you don't have to look over your shoulder before you express your opinion.

To those who spew hate and lie about your aledged accomplishments, this is what I have to say:
Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings. Shut your festering gob you twit(sic)! Your type really make me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, perverts!

You can leave now.

Stupid git.

Trapper Frank
Check the archives of my blog (click on my name) and you'll read about a large number of them that the MSM never HEARD of. GySgt Gibson's story is there, a GREAT story that the MSM totally ignored.

This is not "nonpartisan"
And I do resent people who lie to my internet interface knowing that they are lieing.

The author denigrates the motives of people who's internal thoughts and feelings he cannot know.

Apparently he does not know that he does not know.

Being a skillful soldier means just this: You are a skillful soldier. Nothing else.

Would you go to a brain surgeon if you needed a good politician?

Sir:
Others here have said it better, but I also want to thank you for your service, all the more difficult when rendered in the context of noise and propaganda.

Please know that there are so many of us here who understand and support your mission, and who will go to our graves eternally grateful for what our soldiers have given.

Soon, we'll elect a new Commander in Chief. My top priority in doing so is that my vote will NEVER go to someone who doesn't respect our military.

Oh, and I forgot
That is why our founding fathers believed in the Rule of Law. That murder should be punished, but also first investigated has been a requirement of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta was signed.

Why was there NO criminal investigation requiring that evidence be presented and witnesses be heard after 9-11? Why are all the security tapes still kept top-secret? Why did all the steel from the WTC, all pre-cut to 30ft lengths with slag around the cuts, all get carted off overseas in GPS tracked trucks?

Without the Rule of Law you can not have democracy.

But you can have Rule of the Bully. The bully, with the most muscles or the biggest automatic weapon and tanks, the bully doesn't need no stinking Rules.

Thank You
Thank you for all that you do Mr. Bellavia. And to all other soldiers on these threads: While others may try to degrade your honor, loyalty, bravery, and patriotism many more of us hold you in a place of admiration. Thank you for standing in the gap between civilization and chaos.

From the proud daughter of a family of Marines.

wrong war against wrong Islamics
I am the son of a career Air Force officer who was nominated for the Medal Of Honor in Nam by the Green Berets, who made him a Green Beret. His brother died over Germany in a B-17 shortly before D-day. Our family has done its duty when called upon, but we have learned to question the motives of the calling sometimes. Viet Nam was a total misguided tragedy. The war in Iraq is worse still in a way.

Taking out Iraq was not really about fighting terror, nor did it have anything to do with 9/11, though Americans were led to think so. It was REALLY about taking out Iraq with the result being permanent bases there to provide a security buffer for Israel. This is why the facile excuses given for the ruse so soon rang hollow. The perps of the thing then holding Presidente Jorge's leash had called for it back in '96 and tried to sell Clinton on it in '98.

Secretly, Perle, Wolfy, Libby and Feith were delighted that 9/11 gave them their cause celebre to spring the thing. Then, they simply had to snooker the Times and Congress with phony fears of WMD's, and we were off to spend a good $2 TRILLION over there. Much of that cost is in the 18 permanent bases we have been constructing-- it has little to do with "fighting terror" per se. Meanwhile, we have largely further alienated > 1 billion Islamics by demonstrating that we are a pawn for Israel, which is what 90% of them believe fundamentally.

Seriously, where was the clamoring "to free the Iraqi people" or spread democracy until the other vacuous tripe proved to be lies. By then, the progenitors had already slunk away from the W.H. leaving Jorge with the egg on his face-- and WE get the staggering tab, while the bad dudes who really did 9/11 remain elsewhere. Such a deal!


trughes
"Yours is but to do AND Die."

You do a great disservice to the military. We, all the military family, bleed real blood and think real thoughts. You are correct that we cannot should not be allowed into the political arena while serving. We have every right to take an active political role in the future of our country. Do you know that over 20 general officer left the service to speak out. Countless others officer and enlisted have also. I applaud them even ones like David for at least speaking out and putting their name on the line.

Our military is so successful because we ask why and why not.



comment
Re "America cannot be defeated": Maybe not, but it can sure be bankrupted. The Iraq war is like a tumor that drains the life out of the rest of the body.

Moron, the war costs 3 percent of our GDP. Entitlements are 63 percent. Your democratic pals want to add 8 times the cost of the war per year to the budget. Get a grip.

Obviously, trughes ranks among those

such as halD/wobbie and the others who simply sit back, fat, dumb and dumb, and enjoy the freedoms that people such as David Bellavia put their lives on the line to protect.

Another clue about these people is that they're incapable of writing a coherent, intelligent post, and certainly cannot post without the usual insults...




Never On The Battle Field
We have never been defeated on the battle field. The reason we lost in Vietnam will be the same reason we loose in Iraq. Cut and run traitors like Obama, code pink, etc.

You see, they love our enemies and hate anyone who fights our enemies. Why do you think Obama has palled around with terrorist weathermen and offered to talk directly with other terrorist leaders. Ultimately their goals are the same. Destroying America with socialism and welfare.

I fear only a very bloody revolution, with a million dead liberal socialists, will eventually save our nation.

Vets For Freedom are liars
I love these VFF guys. Hegseth and Bellavia run around talking about their service and how honorable their group is. I bet you Bellavia has never fired a round in Iraq. yet he feels the need to write a book and give us HIS opinion. Who doe these cowards think they are? This is a bum war being fought by good kids. Unfortunatley so many losers like VFF are eager to profit off it.

There is one group that represents the true will of the veteran today and that is Vote Vets. Bellavia and Hegseth could learn alot from REAL soldiers.

Ho chi Minh
JDs Handsome Son, Ho died in 1969 so he did not say anything after the war was over. I do not beleive Ho made the quote "You Americans will kill ten or a hundred of us for every one of you that we kill, but we will still defeat you" at the beginning of the war. Hhe may ahve said it in 1968 or 69 after hearing Cronkite's reporting and seeing the anti-crowd swell because of the lies he told us.

The Vietnam War was lost because Johnson and McNamara tied the hands of our military and Walter Cronkite and his ilk lied to the American People about Tet '68. He reported defeat when our military absolutely decimated the Viet Cong at the time and soundly defeated the NVA at Hue. The Viet Cong was never a force after that. Those lies jacked up the anti war crowd and led to the "Peace" movement.

Our leaders failure to stop the war material entering North Vietnam and failure to bomb the supposedly manned Russian anti-aircraft positions in the North was criminal.

The surge in Iraq is working. Let's not let the Obama, clinton, Dean, Reid, Kennedyh, Pelosi crowd and the MSM do this to our military again.

Thank you for your service.

Well, I see the usual trolls have blessed us with their BS. Got to go back and read their BS to get my blood pressure up.

Bye!!!



Hal
"Do you know that over 20 general officer left the service to speak out. Countless others officer and enlisted have also."

Did you get that information from the same source that told you Teddy Roosevelt protested World War I?

Robert AKA Hal Dorkahue
HAHA! You got BUSTED OUT like a punk on the George Will thread last night!
-----------------------
Hal Donahue writes: Thursday, March, 06, 2008 9:24 PM
Robert
"...The pressure to do this will grow because I doubt there is goign to be an serious momenteum one way or the other toward the super delegates going in large numbers to one side or the other."

After the PA vo te if no movement then I suspect the "elders" will get a solution... We shall see

"...I really dont see an ending for this that is well good. Unless someone starts winning or losing take your pick."

I suspect Hil is going to do the winning; we shall see. The cash is flowing in. But realy the issue is how do we end this well. I think it can and will be done. In the mean time, I suspect the McCain (McSame seems to be sticking btw) crowd will be shut out

Robert
-----------------------------
You signed off as ROBERT!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! Tell again that it was a cut and paste error. HAHA. Just like the "flying" error where Wally spanked you like a little girl.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/Column.aspx?UrlTitle=in_ search_of_the_peace-loving_muslims_--_again&Comments=true&n s=AustinHill&dt=09/30/2007&submitted=trueeca7853d-17a5-4002 -81a9-5618b36d45cb&submitted=true59eb6b83-fdb9-4b5f-b84d-4d bdcb9c1022

keep posting snot nose, we're getting some good laughs in.

BTW, how was your "libations" with the only 100 Dhimmicrat vets in America?

You're so stupid it's no longer funny.



Good morning Anne
My lawn needs to be mowed, so i gotta go, but i wanted to say good morning to you, and once more express my thanks to the warriors who have defended liberty, defended America, the world's best hope. Don't worry about the trolls. When it comes to the crunch, only those in touch with reality make a difference. Nothing is more real than a punch in the nose or an empty stomache. Until one is familiar with the pros/cons of both, discussion is mere sophistry.

reply to: truu
Questionable priorities and motives...

According to the CBO, we will easily spend $2 TRILLION in Iraq. That would be > $25,000 per typical household/family of 4 in America, or looked at another way, $400,000 per Israeli citizen. For that, we are further alienating > 1 billion Islamics, and many of the REAL perpetrators of 9/11 are still at large. Hmmm.

Your trying to relate the profligate cost of the war in Iraq to entitlements misses a HUGE point... at least the "entitlements" are mostly spent on Americans... oops, I forgot 20 million+ ILLEGAL aliens, who are the REAL threat to our socio-economic and cultural well-being.

It is pointless to fight abroad for alleged security at home when militant Islamics can waltz across the border posing as Mexicans, which is what the FBI says is precisely what they are doing. Security begins at home, but Presidente Jorge is too dense to appreciate that as he willfully leaves the border open while welcoming his amigos. Jorge promised them down in Mexico last year in Espanol to work for THEM, Mexicans, to assure Scamnesty in America. Say it ain't so, Jorge!

HalD aka Frobusto
Maybe you can help me with this. You say you're for the troops but then worked on Hanoi John Fonda Kerry's campaign. Did you know that he back stabbed the POW/MIA's or just not care?

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0408,schanberg,51276,1.htm l

Kinda hypocritical of you but then hypocrisy is the lib's buzzword.

Also, knowing that you have chronic BDS, how does it make you feel to know that Bush endorsed yor "master and commander" McShamnesty?

haha.

I salute you, David
God bless you, David Bellavia, and all of your fellow servicemen who are not ashamed of your country or its military! Know that, regardless of what our country's traitorous media lyingly reports to the American people, there are many more millions of us behind you than you are told. I apologize to you and your fellow servicemen for the attitudes of some of those who have posted their leftist drivel on your article; out of simple decency, I refuse to even mention their names, we and they know perfectly well who they are.

Standshisground
Ditto!

The war is over, and over and over
How many times does a war have to be over before the soldiers get to have a victory. The actual invasion was from mar. 20, 03-apr 15, 03 and the army won. Then on May 1 03 it was mission accomplished, then from Apr. 20, 03- jun 28, 04 it was the new iraqi govt. America won. July 3 04, new insurgents GWB says "bring em on", dec 03 saddam captured, America won. Now the army is reduced to being security guards for nation builders. No, the army is trained to kill people and break stuff. This war has been over alot of times and they just won't let them come home hero's and I don't know why. 1.9 trillion dollars later and they won't let them come home hero's and I don't like it. I hate the media and liberals for their cowardice and treason, the nation building apologists as much for enabling this U.N humanitarian tragedy with the armed forces of the U.S.

Robert

You did not finish reading the article.

David said, "Infantry soldiers, Marines ... Americans don't break contact.
This just doesn't happen. We fight to win. And hold our ground. No matter the odds or consequences. Those are the lessons taught to us by our brave predecessors of Vietnam, Korea and World Wars I and II."

You brought up the retreat in the Phillipines. One of the lessons learned in the Phillipines was the Bataan march. Why quit if that is to be your reward? The concept of breaking contact is ensure that you will fight another day.

David did not mean that the drills were worthless, only that the drills were never used in his experience.

But you knew that didn't you? BTW, thanks for your expertise anyway.

Lilly

In all the Constitution, there is no, none, nada, zip, zero provisions for the government to hand out foreign or domestic welfare in any form, whether health care, social security, loans, grants, et al.

There is a specific responsiblility and provision listed for the government to provide for the common defense.

What would our debt be today if government past did not start all the give-away programs with which we are plagued?

Robert AKA Hal Dorkahue
Hey, you never answered me about that history debate. You were pretty drunk on the Will thread but I challenged you to a history debate, you name the time and place (after April when I get back) but you suddenly found somewhere else to be.

Oh yeah, I also figured we could combine it into a shooting match so you can show off those sniper skills you were chatting about.

And maybe a small 1000.00 bet? Whattya say? You beat me out of some mercenary bucks if you can find your balls.

RA
"The reason we lost in Vietnam will be the same reason we loose in Iraq. Cut and run traitors like Obama, code pink, etc."

Oh stop the revisionist nonsense. We liost in Vietnam because our government lied to us. Plain and simple. TET was a military victory but a political disaster that is when the American People realised they were being lied to and lost all confidence in the government.

"I fear only a very bloody revolution, with a million dead liberal socialists, will eventually save our nation. "

See you rightwing extremist have proven over and over again that you are cowards. Instead of sitting home and slowly stroking those nice long rifle barrels, why not join the military or do something useful? Sitting in your dark little bunkers, dreaming your Walter Mitty dreams slowly and slowly stroking those barrels does little...

Suntheone
The important point is that the military respect the Commander in Chief. Wouldn't you say that those who urge the military not to respect the commander in chief are traitors to America? Wouldn't the same be true for those who attempt to UNDERMINE respect for someone who may be commander in chief BEFORE THE ELECTION? That's traitorous. Suppose the military buys the propaganda that neither Hillary or Obama are up to the job of commander and chief and one of them becomes president. Suppose the military comes into that presidency with doubts about the judgment of the new president and that doubt - no doubt buttresses by conservative talk radio- affects the morale, commitment and ability of the military to do its job.

This talk, sir, is treasonous.

GunnyG
If he wasn't a figment of his own imagination he would take you up on that challange.

Ideology over America
It occurs to me that conservatives love their ideology better than they do America.

Anne
When you're not trashing somebody, are you able to speak at all?

You offered nothing to this thread except shrivelled, bitter name calling of others - the fact is, that's all you ever offer to any thread. Have you noticed that the only posters who respond favorably to you are those that are as corrosive, dark and soured as yourself?

I can feel sorry for you because I don't have to breathe the same air as you do - fortunately, you are not a real part of my life and all I have to do is walk away.


Robert
In case you've never read U.S. history, it has not been uncommon in war for senior military leaders to be at odds over strategy. During World War 2, for example, Eisenhower and Montgomery seldom agreed, and General MacArthur frequently found himself at odds with Admirals King, Nimitz, and Halsey. Disagreements among top commanders are as old as war itself. In every war, you'll always find some dissent no matter what the policy or strategy is. So the fact that there is some dissent in the military to the current administration's strategy says nothing to me, and the fact that there may be some commanders openly supporting Clinton or Obama doesn't, either; military commanders can be as political as anyone else, as Wesley Clark demonstrates.

GunnyG
Stats:
5' 4"
257 lbs with brob & FUPA (urban dictionary)
Drives '82 Chev Cavalier 2door, with chrome colored spray paint, looks like jetfighter in fog if you squint
Has 6 pack in fridge and 1 pack on body
Lives in basement bedroom, mom's house
Has been in many 3 ways.........chats online
Education, U.W...........University of Wikipedia
Has BLPD.........Border Line Personality Disorder
Often uses alcohol in place of meds

open to additions

The valor of our soldiers...
...is wasted on this abominable war in Iraq. Iraq was not involved in 9/11 (most of the perpetrators were actually Saudis). Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction." Iraq posed no credible military threat to the US. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was anti-Iran. Now the Shiite government is naturally aligned with Iran. The whole region is destabilized, with Turks attacking from the north, Pakistan in turmoil. Our invasion and occupation of Iraq serves as a poster boy for recruiting terrorists. And for these results we've lost 4000 killed, 30,000 wounded, a trillion dollars in treasure--so far!

Getting out of Iraq is not about losing. Nobody over there can stand against us. Suicide bombings are the weapons of the weak. Getting out of Iraq is about having the common sense to stop doing what isn't in our interests to do. It's about having the decency to stop doing what we had no business doing--invading and occupying Iraq--in the first place.

All those soldiers killed and wounded on a false mission. All those grieving families. And all those misguided soldiers and ex-soldiers like David Bellavia who still don't even realize how they and their comrades have been misused. What a tragedy.

This column
Is swollen with emotional and stirring sentiment, which I often see posters confusing with hard reason, but the truth is, it is more of a poem than an analysis.

Leaving Iraq is not a defeat - we defeated Saddam 5 years ago, created a huge mess by doing so, but now it's time to leave. Nobody is pursuing us except a bunch of religious partisans whom we have to pay to stop shooting at us, which they have.

For that matter, why is bribing an enemy to stop attacking any less than a retreat of sorts? Do any of you really, truly believe that the combatants who are on our payrole have plan to wash up on the shores of manhattan to take over our country?

Our economy is tanking quickly, we've barely seen the worst of it, yet we are pouring billions into a country that doesn't want us there. Sometimes, doing the smart thing means having to choose among different options - in this case, my option is one that will benefit Americans in practical ways, it's not some illusion that was inspired by a Thomas Kinkade painting at the mall.

Proud Liberal
What you believe is how you will act. Conservatives use ideology as the frame for their lives to give them temperance to how they act with opposing ideas. Liberals use ideology as the club for rid themselves of any ideological debate so as to not ever be on the losing end of such a debate.

Doc W
A lot of those who are serving in Iraq right now volunteered for the Army AFTER the Iraq war began, so they knew very well what they were getting themselves in for and decided that they believed in this fight. You must be one of those who echo the sentiments of John Kerry and his ilk that only losers these days join the military. And when did George Bush ever claim that Iraq WAS responsible for 9/11? Even left-winger Christopher Hitchens, who is hardly part of the VRWC, has stated that this current war wasn't to avenge 9/11, it was to help prevent the next one. Care to comment?

Anne, if you are planning to
respond, which I doubt, don't bother.

Nastiness, mean-spiritedness and hatred seem to drip from your heart like acid from a corroded battery and I don't want to be contaminated.

Subordination of Victory
The very notion of victory is a concept that is so alien to modern liberals that it is simply not contained in their lexicon of progressive virtues. Not even in their very institutional being!

Think about it -- they could not construct a selection process whereby their candidate for POTUS -- their "leader" emerged victorious from the primary process! They tinkered with it so much along the way -- such as by "de-certifying" the Florida and Michigan delegations -- that now no one can win based on democratic selection.

Neither one can reach the finish line!

Thus, neither one of the remaining two can "win" the nomination on the basis of a straight forward democratic selection process. Can't be done. Of necessity, each one must now resort to some form of backroom deal, by surrendering to an entirely anti-democratic impulse . . . using "superdelegates," to carry the day.

But they want to run the country! Their prime motive in that regard has become to "finish" the war!

And to that end, they will "break contact," regardless of the consequences to us all, and to our future. This cannot stand.

Robert
Rumsfeld's counterpart in World War II would have been Henry Stimson, not FDR.

Standshisground
"..In every war, you'll always find some dissent no matter what the policy or strategy is. So the fact that there is some dissent in the military to the current administration's strategy says nothing to me,"

Well actually it should. Democracy have "tension" in their ranks that actually is why they win - blind obedience seldom serves higher command well in wartime. But leaving the military which as I understand it McArthur did not do until canned is somewhat extraordinary and for large numbers to do it is a warning...

"... and the fact that there may be some commanders openly supporting Clinton or Obama doesn't, either; military commanders can be as political as anyone else, as Wesley Clark demonstrates. "

But and here is a HUGE but those generals and other officers spent there whole life in the military. They go against all their training to support the political "opposition" if you will. Their presence matters and matters well. You may attack Wes and Joe Sestek you folks do that well but...yet they serve

GunnyG
Where is your challenged?
Me thinks he's not real.

Dee thinker
"Conservatives use ideology as the frame for their lives to give them temperance to how they act with opposing ideas.

I think that for conservatives, ideology is a rigid, immutable frame which they don't want shaken or questioned by circumstance or the unpredictability of time and change. I see it all the time on TH, and I think that it is the rigidity and inflexibility that most defines conservatives. I truly believe that they are genetically construed to experience great anxiety and discomfort when confronted with any situation that is not black and white, that requires, as they say, nuance.

conservatives think that liberals have no standards or morals, or that their standards only exist in "grey" areas, but I think that for liberals the standards are more adaptive to unpredictability and unforeseen circumstances.

My Grandmother always used to say, "no matter how much control you think you have, life turns on a dime, and it's your job to be ready for it."

Standshisground
What's it like to be taged teamed by the same entity?

Robert
"I can never imagine FDR doign what Bush has done"

You imagine yourself as a Navy captain, so I assume you can imagine just about anything.

touj.
"I think that for conservatives, ideology is a rigid, immutable frame which they don't want shaken or questioned by circumstance or the unpredictability of time and change."

Perhaps you can explain why liberals still support tax-and-spend policies that have proven to be failures?

reply to: calm.Touj & Doc W
Very well expressed, folks.

We should stand behind our troops always, BUT part of supporting them is helping to assure they are not wasted by remaining vigilant about where our pols lead us, and REALLY why... and how much of our money and lifeblood they waste.

Iraq is good money after bad now... declare victory, cut our losses, and leave. This would not be what the neoCONS wanted, but then none of those Chicken Hawks went over there to fight either-- see Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, and Libby then in the W.H. inner circle-- and their supporting media brayers: Barone, May, Kristol, Krauthammer, Prager, Prelutsky, Gaffney, Medved, Diana West, Dick Morris, etc., ad nauseam.

Robert
I don't recall having mentioned FDR in my post that you responded to, so what is your point? It doesn't invalidate my point that in any war, you'll always have disagreements in the military chain of command - some of whom in that command more willing than others to take their disagreements public (like MacArthur did in the Korean War). If the American people were as sick of the Iraq war as the left claimed in 2004, it had the opportunity then to cashier the current Commander-In-Chief. Why didn't they? And the people who voted for George Bush in 2004 were voting for someone who had made no bones about the fact that he was planning to stay the course in Iraq. I was in favor of the Iraq War for reasons that actually had little to do with WMD's. If you want to rage at someone for the war, why don't you rage at the two-facers like Hillary Clinton, who voted for the war without even bothering the National Intelligence Estimate related to it, because the war was politically popular at the time. At least Howard Dean and Barack Obama were willing to buck the prevailing tide by opposing the war from the outset, so I actually don't hold against them and those such as them their opposition to the war, because they took a position from the get-go and have stayed with it ever since, the public mood swings on the war notwithstanding. And in case you didn't notice, Donald Rumsfeld is gone from the Pentagon. Again, something else typical in war: changing commanders and strategists in mid-fight.

largecaliber
My response is "BRING IT ON!"

Robert
"That is one reason this recession is going to be one of the deepest in modern history."

It will have to go a long way to match the Carter administration. Of course, the Democrats just might win. In that case, I can see it happening.

Standshisground
You handle yourself well, better than I could do.

Your posts are concise and logical.

Stands his ground
" It doesn't invalidate my point that in any war, you'll always have disagreements in the military chain of command"

I think you're absolutely right, and I also think it follows that chain all the way to the ground, like lightening.

A Close friend of mine who had served in Korea many years ago told me that frequently, a junior officer, often from the National Guard, would be sent fresh from his job as Super-market manager to take command of a squad that had been fighting for weeks. In the newly-assigned soldiers eagerness to make good, they frequently volunteered for the most dangerous missions and were spinning with dreams of medals and glory.

My friend said that when this happened, a couple of guys would ask to speak to them privately, they would go off into the dark, and the next thing you would hear is a single shot.

that would be the end of the conflict.

Standshisground/Doc W
"A lot of those who are serving in Iraq right now volunteered for the Army AFTER the Iraq war began, so they knew very well what they were getting themselves in for and decided that they believed in this fight. "

So that means it is ok to keep using them and then throw them away? Are they and different than police and fireman who serve and protect? Yet, if they were police or firmen, they would be kept in the worst neighborhoods working 24 hours a day with no relief. You approve of this treatment? Wait you are an anti worker conservative aren't you? So I guess the answer is yes...

"..And when did George Bush ever claim that Iraq WAS responsible for 9/11? Even left-winger Christopher Hitchens, who is hardly part of the VRWC, has stated that this current war wasn't to avenge 9/11, it was to help prevent the next one. Care to comment? "

It was to capture and remove WMDs that Cheney said we knew exactly where they were. All else is rubbish.

To Hal Donahue
You are correct. I believe our military has been successful in the past because of our belief in Education and in the Enlightenment principles which guide this nation. And those priciples embue some of the lowest and some of the highest positioned in that service.

But the trouble with the military is it's very nature: Like all large organizations it is risk averse. It does not want failure so it is prone to believing the worst case scenario. And, as I mentioned, it has top down, control that is famously absolute.

I am sure that many who have joined the military actually "love" that latter aspect. There is not doubt about anything. Everything is easy. Follow orders.

But that is not how this country was set up to operate. And if our country goes any further in that direction, as our founding father knew very well, there will be a mad man to come along and manipulate those structures and the greatest form of government known to man, the only government created out of whole cloth with the full knowlege of philosophy (with some compromises, unfortunately, specifically to the institution of slavery) that form of government will come to an end.

calm.Touj
If a standard changes, is it really a standard? Rigidity defines the standard, otherwise the standard is nothing more than a nice-to-have. Conservatives don't change easily, I'll give you that, but we're not as rigid as Liberals would have people believe. But, look at the vitriol a Liberal gets from other Liberals when he does change, and that should tell you about the Liberal standard.

largecaliber
About threee weeks ago, Frobusto (Fraud Roberto) aka Hal Donohue was bloviating about his .203 caliber rifle and sniper tactics, blah, blah, blah.

I called him on it, challenged him to a shooting match, his .203 claiber rifle and me with my 03A3. He split w/o a word.

Then, a few days ago, the pompus a** pontificator was yammering about history, w/o a shred of coherency and I challenged him to a public debate on US mil history at a forum of his choosing after I get back from Iraq in April.

He, of course, suddenly found somewhere else to be ASAP.

He's a liar and a fraud, he cuts and pastes articles on HuffyPuffy, and I dog him simply because he's a p.o.s.

On a thread about 5 months ago, the skivvie stain was yapping about flying when Wally, a real pilot, shredded him. Roberto/HalD split faster than Bubba Klintoon after a fat intern.