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Tuesday, August 05, 2008
Dave Ramsey :: Townhall.com Columnist
Help from Dad? Keep Working?
by Dave Ramsey
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Dear Dave,

My husband works very hard, and he makes $25,000 a year. We’ve got $21,000 in credit card debt, plus ongoing medical bills for our special needs child. Right now, we’re living in an old trailer. My father told us he’s willing to help us pay down some of the debt and get us moved into a house if we’ll attend financial counseling. Do you have any better ideas?

Cheryl

Dear Cheryl,

If the money is going to be loan – in other words, if you’re going to have to make payments to your dad – I wouldn’t do it. The borrower is always slave to the lender, even when it’s your parents. If you want family events to feel really strange, have debt to your parents. It twists you up inside, and since it’s YOUR dad we’re talking about, the whole situation will be especially tough on your husband.

Now, if this is going to be a gift with no expectation of re-payment, that’s a little bit different. But I think your dad is right on target with making the money contingent on you guys getting some financial counseling. If you were my child, I’d definitely expect that much AND for you guys to start saving money for the future. That’s only fair.

You two obviously aren’t spoiled little brats running around spending money like there’s no tomorrow. But having a family and raising kids on $25,000 a year would be hard on anyone – even without the credit card and medical bills.

I’d also suggest that your husband map out a plan for improving his earning potential. It would be great if the two of you could sit down together and do this. Give him some support and boost his confidence. Let him know he’s smart, talented and can be anything he wants to be. Help him decide what he wants to be doing three of four years from now and the steps he can take to make it happen.

He’s a hard-working man, Cheryl. But today’s culture doesn’t always reward just hard work. We’re in a knowledge-based economy right now, one where you need to put the brain in gear on a regular basis to really get things done.

Always remember: You make more money when you PLAN to make more money!

- Dave

Dear Dave,

My wife has been working at the same company for the last 20 years. She makes $40,000 a year, and she can retire in nine years with full benefits. This may sound crazy, but we’re wondering if it would be a good idea for her to quit now and stay at home with our two toddlers. We’re debt-free, and we could save some money and pay the bills on my income. Is this a bad idea?

Sam

Dear Sam,

Is mom staying home with the kids a bad idea? I don’t think so! Go ask those kids which they’d like best – benefits or having mommy around a lot more – and see what they have to say. You already know the answer to that one, don’t you?

We don’t work for retirement and benefits. We work for what benefits and retirement DO for us. Benefits can help us take care of our families, and one of those benefits is money that we can make and save money. Even if she quits, you guys can still do that.

There are all kinds of great work benefits out there, Sam. But if you really want to see some benefits, pour as much time as you can into your kids!

- Dave

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About The Author
Dave Ramsey is a personal money management expert, popular national radio personality and the author of three New York Times bestsellers.
 
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WELCOME!
Welcome aboard Townhall, Dave. I enjoy your books and radio show, and your advice is spot on, so the more outlets you can find to get out the no-debt, live-intentionally message, the better.

zzzzzzzzz

Stay home??
Yes that would be nice.............but a $40,000 pay cut is HUGE!!!!

Sandy
Huge is a very relative word. If measured only in how many lattes or cruises that might buy, many if not most people would choose the money. It all depends of what your priorities are. Hard to put a dollar value on quality time with kids. Eventually, the choice becomes moot and many regret the choice they made. Cat's in the cradle.

This is the 2nd post I have read
from this guy, and I have to say, he pulls no punches and seems to give sound advice. Many financial advisors promise the moon or tell people what they want to hear, I like the straightforwardness of this author.

Ignore Dave on Dad's "loan"
Cheryl: If you have $25,000 in credit card debt on $25,000 annual salary, and a child with special needs you are in deep financial trouble. Normally Dave's advice about borrowing from family would makes sense. Barring Dad insisting on some loan terms more onerous than that credit card company, better to get the money from him and retire that debt.

Will it be a sore spot at Thanksgiving. Perhaps. But Dad is offering and you should take it. I would make the following suggestions.

1. If it is a loan do the terms in writing, including any interest. It will avoid family disagreement and hard feelings later on.

2. Go to debt counseling.

3. Cut that credit card up. Seriously, you cannot even keep one for emergencies will a balance like that.

4. If you are in a hole you cannot crawl out of, there is always the option of bankruptcy--but that should be your last option. You do not want to pull that trigger unless you absolutely have to.

Hubby needs a better (higher paying) Job
If the husband is honestly willing to take a loan from his Father-In-Law, I'm not sure that he will be willing to do this, but $25K is below poverty levels in most states. Owing money to an in-law can be worse than owing a credit card company. Before bankruptcy, I'd stop paying the credit card companies, and negotiate some debt settlement with them (if you haven't already). Dad might be feeling real generous right now, but if you start missing payments to him, he might become your worst enemy.

Join the Army
Whenever I read people like Cheryl's problems as a young married couple I immediately put on my old recruiting commander hat and wonder why they don't join the Military assuming they are qualified?

First all medical bills for the child and wife are covered. My wife was recently diagnosed with MS and we couldnt ask for better medical coverage and medical prescription coverage. The on post housing is free to help the family get on their feet and the salary range is about what he makes now with the possibility of fast advancement huge cash bonuses that could be more then his credit card debt, tax advantages, and college tution coverage along with job skill training.

tinsldr2@yahoo.com

cheryl
Dave always has great advice.

I don't know what your family situation is but I have sat back being the humble daughter and watched my four siblings hold their hands out and take my parents to the cleaners.

Now they all think they are so wise and look what They have accomplished.

I have raised four children with both my husband and I working.

If you have a situation where other siblings are getting help the hell with humility. Take the money! You deserve it.

Again don't know the circumstances but if your Dad wants to help and will not hold it over your head GOD BLESS HIM!!

Mr. Ramsey
You forgot to mention to Cheryl that we are also in an arbitrary government economy right now - one where you need to be in the defense industry, in the military, in the government, a commodity producer, a commodity trader, a farmer, a faith-based charity worker, a faith-based charity recipient, a "green" energy entrepreneur, an outsourcing consultant, or a Sarbanes-Oxley accountant/compliance officer to make money. I was going to add medical professional, but that won't last long.

Bad advice
Sam, you are nine years from full benefits? Keep working. You will regret not doing so if your hubby runs out on you or dies, especially if those benefits include health insurance coverage. Your kids will be fine with you working. Thousands out there are doing fine, too. You are damn lucky to have a job that offers full bennies to retirees. Very rare indeed in today's corporate culture. Take advantage of it. You worked so long already to get there, and to throw it away when so close is not smart.

That Cheryl needs to go get a job, with a husband earning only $25,000 a year. Could someone please tell me how you can owe almost your annual income on credit cards? That is just plain retarded. Her daddy is even more retarded to lend money to a bad risk like this set. I can't see how even one person can live on $25,000, let alone a family of three.

Avoid credit card debt at all costs. At 18% or 21% interest, you are being bled!

I find it hard to believe that
the first example is true. A guy working full time has to be making more than 25K which is barely above minimum wage. If it is true someone else has already said it, he needs another job.

As for the second example, if the wife can retire at full benefits in 9 years, when can she retire with partial benefits, including medical?

Another key question is her age. Most retirement programs do not start kicking in major money to the account until the worker is at age 50 and even then it doesn't get to the max until 55.

There really isn't enough info in either of these cases to make an informed decision.

How Old are Cheryl and her Husband?
That was my first question when I read their story. I am betting they are very young. Apparently they have only the one child, and it depends on what the Special Needs are but I am guessing Cheryl has to look after the child as it is too young to go to school, or they cannot get it into a program. (I say IT because she didnt specify if it is a girl or boy.)

If this is the case, I would take the help from Dad with the clear understanding that every cent would be paid back. Otherwise this will breed resentment that will never die -- and expctations that Dad will bail out bad decisions in the future. (I suspect this case is not bad decisions, it is youth and the misfortune of having a special needs child.) Put it all in writing. Go to credit counseling and look into night school for Hubby, in a field which he likes that will make him a good income. (Xerox repairman? Bookkeeper? Court reporter?) Meanwhile could he get on in a business that rewards hard work? My oldest boy is a dropout and started work at a pest-control company as a replacement worker for someone on leave. He proved to be so good at the job that now he works 60 hours a week and will have his home paid off in 8 years. (He is 25.)

For Cheryl, I suggest she look into the Salvation Army. They may have a program for her child and she can probably find a program for herself that will upgrade her skills and nourish her spirit. And give her other people to talk to and inspire her. Once they get into that house, I would encourage them to make the best of it and turn it into a real home.

And above all else, do not let the current hardships get you down. Mama and Daddy lived in an old trailer with three kids under age 4 and the money that Daddy could make racing stock cars way before NA$CAR and its millions. In the winter they lived with his mother and younger brothers. They worked their way out of it because they were young and determined. You can do it too.

Vic, not sure what you mean ...
by barely above minimum wage. $25k/year is equal to a guy making $9/hr working about 49 hours/week. $9/hr is a couple dollars above minimum wage. How do you define barely?

I agree with you about the second example. If she's that close to retirement age, I have to wonder what the ages of the children are. They'd have to be older. If they are older, she might try to negotiate working less hours per week so she can be home when the kids are not in school. Some tend to think that when kids get older and are more self-reliant, mom can work more hours. The problem is, there really is never a good time for kids to be left unsupervised, even when they're 16 and 17.

Caligula, I'm not sure you completely understand Dave Ramsey. Yes, he's a finance guy, but his perspective on finances comes from a perspective that you may not be familiar with. It is faith based.

As far as Cheryl getting a job: who's going to care for their special needs child? I applaud them being willing to sacrifice and live on less to be able to care for their child themselves instead of transferring responsibility to the taxpayer. If they attended the church where I attend, once we knew about their problems, we'd do what we could to help. That's what brothers and sisters in Christ do. I'm not talking about the greedy televangelists you see on TV. I'm talking about the face-to-face, real-life faith that people all across America live out on a daily basis.

FROG
I guess we have different definitions of "barely" when talking about wages. Even here in SC which is a low wage State the only people who make that low of a wage are new hires and part time.

As I said, he needs a new job.

Good advice for both.
Sam's wife will enjoy staying home more now during toddler years then later when they are in school. It's a win win situation for both parent and child here. They are also debt free which means they are excellent at planning and also smart with their spending. She can always go back to work when the kids are older or graduated.

Having Cheryl's husband make plans for second job to earn more is also good advice. It may only be temporary in order to nix the credit card debt. Using second job to pay that debt down quickly will help a great deal. A friend of mine had $12000 debt and his second job paid it off in 7 months. His second job took time from home and family for those 7 months but he came out debt free very quickly and learned his lesson about credit cards. Whenever he gets a mailer to get another credit card, he simply remembers when he was working 18 hours a day on two jobs. Good incentive to throw them in the trash.

refreshing response
No company benefit would ever come close to the value of spending more time with your kids.

western bondbeam, excellent point!
One of the worst things that can be done is to remove a great learning opportunity for people. The couple $21k in debt need to learn financial responsibility. It doesn't sound like they'be been frivolous in amassing the debt, but if people are removed from debt without at least a little pain, they may very easily get themselves back into debt without even realizing it.

I've heard many horror stories about people getting equity lines of credit on their homes to consolodate debt and free up the constrictions of numerous payments only to think to themselves, "Now we have enough money for that monthly car payment on the new car we want."

My wife and I paid of $18k in 20 months when we got serious about our financial situation. And that was on an income in the mid $40k's. It can be done, but like Dave teaches in his FPU classes (Financial Peace University), you have to have cheetah mentality.

Dear Cheryl
1. Get a job yourself and contribute to the family finances.

2. Tell your husband to get a second job, and a third job if necessary.

3. Do not purchase anything (absolutely nothing) unless you can't possibly live without it.

4. If items 1, 2, and 3 are unacceptable or too difficult, accept your father's help. You have no chance otherwise.

Dear Sam
Yes, quitting now is a bad idea. Dave is a fool. How did he ever get this column? Follow his advice and you will end up on welfare.

I see
why this nation is so debt riddled and screwed up judging from most of the posts.

This country has based their happiness on their wealth and the pursuit of money.

Dave's advice was spot on.

western bondbeam
Sam's wife has already worked for the company for 20 years, so she is likely at least 40. The idea that she can quit now and go back to work after the kids are older or graduated is highly unlikely. Jobs for women in their mid-50s who have been out of the work force for 10 years or more are pretty much limited to minimum wage.

my father'
raise a family on $25,000....what are you thinking????

my father's advice to me
raise a family on $25,000....what are you thinking????

Charles
No risk, no reward.

She can play it safe, stay at the job and miss her kids growing up into teenagers and live with regret that she missed those younger years with her kids for the rest of her life. Or she stays home now and risks that minimum wage job later in life. To steal a phrase from one of those credit card ads(sorry Dave), "There are some things money can't buy".

Maybe a compromise might be finding a position in the company as "part time" where she works some days, and stays home others with the option of going back full time later on to meet retirement. Sometimes, good companies know that good employees are important to keep and are willing to make the situation work for both parties.

Charles
"Yes, quitting now is a bad idea. Dave is a fool. How did he ever get this column? Follow his advice and you will end up on welfare"
-------------
Do you rule your money or does it rule you?

You did read the part about being debt free right. This means they own their home, car etc...outright. Zero debt means they have been very responsible in spending their money. I doubt her not working is going to put them into welfare. They will adjust and survive quite well is my guess.

25,000 dollars is minimum wage.??.
.
I admit to being retired and to living outside the U.S., but VIc, $25,000. doesn't sound like washing dishes at McDonald's. Sounds more like asst mgr at McDonald's or better still.

Many jobs are paying less. Ramsey is right, the young man could improve his position and salary possibly. We don't know his limitations or habits, but it really sounds like there are bad habits in the family of young people.

$25,000 isn't the same in small town America or any farming area as it would be in Charleston or any prosperous city.
.
.

Help from Dad
I've been on both ends of this quandary. Just out of college with a wife and child, we were starting out. Dad said he would help with a down payment. With his assets I would not presume that it would be gift.
Twenty-five years later, my son, just out of the service, and his wife, approached me with a similar situation.
I would not make them a gift. Having gone through the same set of circumstances I asked them to hire a financial adviser. They refused and so did I. My solution was multiple jobs and and an austere budget. This is more than they would go for so to this day my wife and I are held in the sub-scrooge category. That was twenty-five years ago.

western bondbeam
Obviously, both couples in this story have the right to make whatever personal and financial choices they prefer. That is their right in a free society. However, with those rights come the responsibility to provide for not only the present, but for their future, including retirement.

If Sam's wife wants to drop out now to stay home with the kids, Sam had better save enough to provide for retirement that might last 30+ years, without much or all of his wife's pension. He should be prepared to pay not only for food and housing, but also for his own medical care, property taxes, etc., without complaining that he has a "fixed" income and needs someone else to pay for his failure to work hard and save when he had the ability.

Sam and his wife might also consider the benefits that her income might provide to the children, including the ability to send them to quality universities instead of the local community college, again without complaining about the high cost and demanding that others pay for their convenience.

Again, it's their choice so long as they don't cry poverty and expect others to subsidize their lifestyle.

westerm bondbeam
You make a tremendous leap when you assume what they mean by "debt-free." They may refer only to credit card debt. Plus there is no reference to any significant savings. My guess is that this couple, likely already 40+, is substantially behind where they need to be in retirement savings. The last thing they can afford is to lose both current income and retirement income.

As to whether I rule my money or it rules me, my situation is not relevant. However, I will say that having financial security improves ones outlook on many things, including relationships with children. Once a person works and saves to achieve financial security, he is no longer ruled by money. These folks in the story have not arrived yet.

Caligula
Are you and I the only readers of this column that have any understanding of finances? Everyone else seems to suggest being a full-time soccer mom and trusting in God to provide. Good luck to them.

This is MY way to live

When I was in the Army at age 18, making maybe $50 a month, each payday I got a haircut, and paid for two more. I bought a couple of movie tickets. I looked at my bus pass, and if there were not enough rides for a roundtrip each day, I bought more. I went to the PX and bought shaving needs, and a few candy bars.

Within a few days men were trying to borrow money from me, but not a cent, ever.

I didn’t go to town each day, but I could have. I never ran out of money, and could do this or that all month.

We got married after I was recalled into the Army for the Korean War. I supplemented my $100 a month income with a job popping popcorn at a local hot rod race track.

I do remember one time we had to return a six-pack of coke bottles to buy a loaf of bread, but that was embarrassing, and never happened again.

As a result of my good jobs in the computer Business, we got into the apartment rental business, bought and sold, converted to Condo, etc., and I retired from the Computer Business at age 50.

We then traveled the world, including 1,000 nights in Europe, most of them in our RV that we drove 87,000 miles in 29 countries over 25 years. Over 100 nights on ships, including a freighter trip to Siapan, and more.

Our credit card is dated 1967, and has been used for everything, even a quart of milk, and we paid interest a couple of months back in the ‘60s, never again. Most likely over $1,500,000 total.

Of course we had many mortgages on all the building we owned, and one time, a few years ago, they asked for our credit history. The banker was shocked to see we had last paid interest for a couple of months, for our new ‘65 Olds.

One thing that I can not assign a number to, is that with the thousands of meals at home and in restaurants, we spent not one cent on any alcohol drink, even once. Wonder how much money that saved us.

As I have often said, “Plan ahead, you could use one.”


Credit Cards
Credit cards are a great way to track your spending, and should be used by responsible people instead of cash. But never charge anything on a credit card that you cannot pay for immediately. In other words, don't buy if you don't have the money.

Credit cards should be paid in full every month. If you carrry any balance, no matter how small, then your finances are out of control.

Charles
If you knew anything at all regarding Dave Ramsey, you would know that when a caller calls his radio show and says they are debt free, they literally mean they are 100% debt free. No house debt, no credit card, no loans etc. He has a whole stint on where callers can call in their most creative "debt free" chants to celebrate it so I am not stretching it at all by suggesting they are indeed 100% debt free.

Admittingly there is a lot of assuming going on regarding their status. Certainly though noone can accuse Sam and his wife of being financially irresponsible so that track record should speak for their future as well. They are not some free loaders expecting others to pay their bills so I give them some benifit here.

Also your assumptions regarding credit cards are not quite on track. Tracking spending is all good as long as the person keeps track at each point of sale (which few do when using a credit card).

A debit card is better because it gets recorded like a checkbook so the sale is always in front of them.

Credit cards show no record until the bill comes and you have a long list to pay for. It is much easier to outspend your earnings with a credit card because there is no easy way to keep track throughout the spending period. Unless they are very disciplined, keep track of each sale in a ledger (like a checkbook), their chances of going over their spending budget increases greatly with a credit card.

They may pay it off every month, however they will sometimes have to dip into savings to do so because they overspent.

I agree with Dave:
I had the opportunity to run a business and make millions - or work for someone else and spend time with my kids. I chose the kids and have never been sorry.

Not long ago, my son and his wife were divorced. He got custody of their son. He made one comment that was reward enough for not being rich: "She was trying to raise our son as she was raised. And she was in constant trouble just as her brother and sisters are. I want to raise the boy as you raised me. I can't see any problems with how we were raised."

Each and every day


western bondbeam Location: MI
Reply # 33
Date: Aug 6, 2008 - 2:27 PM EST
outspend your earnings with a credit card because there is no easy way to keep track throughout the spending period.

=========

Come on Westbeam, what is that thing you have your fingers on right now? What are you reading from? It’s called a computer, and you are connected to the internet.

I don’t know what credit card you use, but I check the record on the internet each and every day, not to check what I have spent, but to make sure that no one else has spent anything on my card.

I check my bank account and credit account daily. That’s what the internet is best used for.

jim
"I don’t know what credit card you use,"
-----------
I don't own a credit card. A debit card works just fine for me.

Obviously there is a huge credit card debt issue in this country (probably the next bailout for our ever beloved nannystate) so even though the method is there to check it daily, few are disciplined and actually do it. Even responsible people don't always take the time to check it. They just wait for the bill to come.

Those that do, good for them. Those that don't had better watch out or may find themselves overspending their income.


western bondbeam
I submit that a debit card is a disaster because it provides none of the legal protection afforded by a credit card. If used by someone else, you are out of luck up to the balance in your checking account.

Dave Ramsey sounds like a financial cheerleader for small time losers, not serious financial advice.

I would be interested in your opinion as to how much in savings a couple needs for retirement. Is it $10K or $100K or $500K or $1MM or $2MM or more?

western bondbeam
By the way, you can check your credit card charges on-line anytime. Shows how little you know.

western bondbeam
Just curious, but how would you rent a car without a credit card?

Charles
Hertz and Enterprise both accept debit cards for rentals provided there is a reasonable balance in the account. There might be some more restrictions involved but nothing that can't be overcome.I have never rented a car though so honestly never have tried it.

You might want to check with your bank or Visa regarding debit card protections. They can ease your fear somewhat. I have gotten rid of mine a long time ago.

If not, just keep a tight balance in there. You don't even need a computer or internet to do that. I can even do it without a calculator believe it or not.

responsibility counts


western bondbeam Location: MI
Reply # 36
Date: Aug 6, 2008 - 3:06 PM EST
Subject: jim
"I don’t know what credit card you use,"
-----------
I don't own a credit card. A debit card works just fine for me.

========

These days checking accounts don’t pay enough interest to matter, but I used to make a month’s interest on all I spent on my credit card, and that could be $10 or $15 interest a month. That’s why I would not use a debit card.

What counts is the users responsibility, not what card he uses.


western bondbeam
Never rented a car? Are you a hermit? Further, Enterprise is best only for local rentals and Hertz is the highest cost car rental company. Neither is a good choice for personal travel.

Any protection you receive on a debit card is subject to the policies of the bank, and can change at any time. The banks want you to use a debit card because you then assume the risk for fraudulent use. Credit cards are protected by law. I prefer to be safe.

Anyone with a significant income and expenses cannot easily keep a "tight" balance in a checking account. The minute a paycheck hits the account, the balance is far from "tight", and subject to theft via a debit card.

I will concede to you that your approach might be best for low income individuals with limited financial savvy (the Dave Ramsey fans), but probably not for people with real financial power.

Jim
Use a credit card (like Discover) that gives 1% back on all purchases, and occasionally more (up to 5%) for a limited time on specific purchases like gasoline.

Charles
Small time loser, hermit Bondbeam here. Just your average low income individual with limited financial savvy waiting for Mr. Ramsey's next cheer.

I figured one such as yourself with great income and financial savvy would have understood my "tight" balance reference was poking fun but that's okay, I wouldn't expect you to lower yourself to such mediocracy. After all, people with high incomes always make smart decisions and are too good for the likes of Dave Ramsey. They seldom file bankruptcy or lose their homes. They seldom fall into finacial ruin due to poor choices. That kind of thing is just never heard of.

I guess us hermit gullables will just have to stick with Ramsey and his idiotic "borrower is slave to the lender" stance.

jim
Responsibility is always important.

My stance is that credit cards make it easier to spend money we don't always have. A debit card limits you because of the account balance and forces you to be disciplined.

A person that uses a credit card should be very disciplined in it's use. Not just paying the bill at the end of the month but monitering it's daily use so as to not overspend the 60% income coming in (assuming a person or couple is saving 40% of their current earnings for emergency/retirement). If they overspend that 60% then that starts to bite into their savings. It happens without them realizing it unless they check it on a daily or at minimum weekly.

western bondbeam
You completely misunderstand me. I am a strong believer in zero debt. But zero debt is not enough if you are living month-to-month and do not have significant savings and investments.

A credit card that is paid in full every month is not really credit, but a convenience that can pay a dividend. My point is simply that banks market debit cards to customers who do not fully realize their exposure relative to credit cards.

I did not intend to sound like a super-high-income individual. However, when someone cannot earn more than $25K per year, their future is bleak and no advice will help much. They really have no choice but to earn themselves out of the hole.

Debit Cards
Beware of debit cards. They are simply not worth the risk.

From the pirg.org:

Debit Cards: Much greater liability risk than credit cards:

-- Legally, your ultimate liability for fraudulent use of a credit card is generally only $50. And, when a credit card is fraudulently used, you are also only disputing whether you owe the bank money.

-- Unlike a credit card, if your debit card is used fraudulently, the thief robs your checking account. Potentially, all your money is drained out of your checking account. It could take the bank 10 days or more to investigate and refund your money. In the meantime--you could bounce checks to your landlord, credit card company, or mortgage company.

-- Worse, unlike a credit card, under the law, your debit card liability could be as much as $500, if you notify the bank more than 48 hours after you learn of the problem or even up to all the money in your checking account plus your maximum overdraft line of credit if you fail to notify the bank within 60 days (See Fed excerpt below). Under pressure from the state PIRGs, banks claim to have voluntarily limited debit card liability to $50. PIRG has received complaints from consumers whose banks have not honored the well-publicized alleged voluntary $50 limit. Let us know (uspirg@pirg.org) if you have lost more than $50 in a debit card dispute with a bank, savings and loan or credit union.


Even worse, you are fighting to recover your own money back into your own checking account. It is true that some banks may eventually honor the voluntary $50 limit, but consumers face horrific problems because while the bank is conducting its internal investigation, consumers are dealing with other checks that may bounce, and consumers face enormous hassles explaining what happened to the bounced checks they wrote to their other creditors, since the fraudster drained their account.

Charles
If I mistunderstood these statements from you, I apologize.

"Small time loser", "hermit","low income individual" "limited financial savvy", "not for people with real financial power"

"They really have no choice but to earn themselves out of the hole."
------------
Careful there Charles that last comment sounds a lot like Dave Ramsey.

I have no beef with responsible credit card users however my point about overspending one's income to expenses/savings ratio is not without merit. A credit card makes it easier to spend one's money. It's that simple.

Why do you think there is such a HUGE debt carried by credit card holders? The last statistic I saw was upwards of $9000 average debt on a credit card. Thats average. I havn't checked recently however it's probably higher than that now. This credit card thing is way out of hand. They are next on the list for government bailouts.

I am off for the night.

More of the same

Charles Location: PA
Reply # 43
Date: Aug 6, 2008 - 4:56 PM EST
Jim
Use a credit card (like Discover) that gives 1%
-
My original B of A card does the same.
======
Never rented a car? Are you a hermit?

western bondbeam said he never rented a car. Well, I have rented a car at least 800 times in 35 states, several places in Europe, and several Islands in the Pacific, including Siapan, and Majuro, for example. In addition to driving an RV 87,000 miles in about 29 countries in Europe, RVs and cars thousands of miles in 48 states, and Canada coast to coast, I’ve never had a scratch, and never needed to fight for insurance protection.

Talk about luck, or is that just excellent driving. I find that hard to believe, but it is true.

western bondbeam and jim
Use of a credit card just requires that the user be responsible. If someone is so irrespposible and lacking in impulse control that they cannot be trusted with a credit card, then their situation is pretty hopeless.

I can also see the calls for government bailout of people in serious credit card debt, particularly if Obama wins. My opinion is that these people should be allowed to sink, just like those who overspent on houses.

Jim raises another interesting question. For car rentals, does a debit card give the same free insurance coverage as a "gold or platinum" credit card, or do you need to purchase the exorbitant insurance or take the risk.

The notable lack of commentary on this column says all that is needed about the quality of the advice.
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