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Monday, December 10, 2007
Phyllis Schlafly :: Townhall.com Columnist
To Assimilate or not to Assimilate: That is the Quesion
by Phyllis Schlafly
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Are you tired of anonymous voices on the phone telling you to "Press 1 (or sometimes 2) for English"? The ability to speak and communicate in English is the litmus test of whether immigrants are assimilating into U.S. culture.

To become a naturalized U.S. citizen, the law states that the immigrant must demonstrate "the ability to read, write and speak ordinary English." All public opinion polls confirm by majorities approaching 90 percent that this is what the American people want.

Despite the law, the Pew Hispanic Center just reported that only 52 percent of Hispanic naturalized citizens speak English well or pretty well. Pew also reported that 28 percent of Latino immigrants speak only Spanish on the job.

Even those who seek diversity in politics, in religion, in morals, in lifestyles and in nationalities reject diversity when it comes to speaking English. It's the tie that binds; it's the e pluribus unum of our culture; it's the route to success in education, careers, and the chance to live the American dream.

As President George W. Bush rounds out his second term, pundits will be speculating on his legacy. The Census Bureau just answered that question: his legacy is admitting the staggering number of 10.3 million foreigners into the United States, both legally and illegally, plus many more illegal residents the Census Bureau could not identify.

The jury is still out on whether those 10.3 million will assimilate into the American socioeconomic culture or will remain in neighborhoods where they associate only with each other and fail to communicate and compete with citizens of their adopted country.

One would think that sound government policy should encourage assimilation, but unhappily our government, both the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, has and is retarding assimilation.

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., lifted the lid on one of the government's major campaigns to discourage assimilation when he offered an amendment to the Commerce, Justice, Science Appropriations Bill (H.R. 3093) to prohibit federal funds from being used by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to sue employers for requiring English to be spoken by employees on the job. EEOC filed more than 200 such lawsuits against employers in the past year.

EEOC accuses the Salvation Army at Framingham, Mass., of discriminating against two employees "on the basis of their national origin." The charge is ridiculous because the Salvation Army actually hired the two employees and gave them a year to learn enough English to speak it on the job, which they failed to do.

Since Alexander's amendment reflected extraordinary bipartisan congressional common sense, it passed the Senate 75-19. The amendment was approved by the House 218-186, and headed for the conference committee.

Then the Hispanic caucus had a tantrum, threatened to block passage of every bill until the amendment was removed, and blocked debate on a popular revision to the unpopular Alternative Minimum Tax. Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., trotted out inflammatory accusations of "bigotry and prejudice."

Hispanic Caucus Chair Rep. Joe Baca, D-Calif., yelled that "There ain't going to be a bill" with the Alexander language. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., halted all action on appropriations to fund the FBI, NASA and the Justice Department.

The government also discourages assimilation by printing foreign language ballots, even though only U.S. citizens are supposed to vote. Another way that government programs retard assimilation is by forcing children with Hispanic-sounding names into Spanish-language classes in public schools, often over the opposition of their parents.

One of the most objectionable anti-assimilation policies is former president Clinton's Executive Order 13166, which requires all recipients of federal funds to provide all information and services in any language requested by any recipient of federal funds, such as a private-practice physician who accepts a Medicare or Medicaid patient. Despite the unnecessary costs and unpopularity of this unilateral Clinton action, the Bush administration has continued the policy.

All Republican presidential candidates affirmed in the televised debate from New Hampshire on June 5, under questioning by Wolf Blitzer, that English should be "the official language of the United States." Only John McCain offered a muddled modification about Native Americans using their own languages.

That's why it's unfortunate that the Republican candidates agreed to participate in a Spanish-language debate sponsored by the Spanish-language television channel Univision.

Memo to Republican presidential candidates: English language is as valuable an issue for you as drivers licenses for illegal immigrants, an issue that forced New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer and U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., candidate for president in 2008, to reverse themselves. Go for it, and leave Pelosi and Reid scrambling to deal with the divisions in their own party.

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About The Author

Phyllis Schlafly is a national leader of the pro-family movement, a nationally syndicated columnist and author of Feminist Fantasies.
 
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contihued ...we are becoming divided
Murderculturism is appropriate and it will destroy! History doesn't repeat itself. Man repeats history when too ignorant to learn from it.

Many here today are not here to become Americans but to change America. They are ignorant. They do not realize what truly makes America great and they don't care! They say they want the American Dream...but they really just want to take, take and take at the expense of the hard working Americans who make more money! And if those Americans have to reduce their lifestyle for them to have theirs...so be it!

You see this mentality is not what makes America great! It is not what builds the American Dream!

It is this new mentality along with zero desire to truly be an American that is creating division. Diversity does not work!

The first sign of lawlessness is ignoring immigration laws...then the lawlessness must continue and our wonderful politicians actually reward this lawlessness with more lawlessness! Then the mentality of: I don't have to follow the laws and I will be protected now comes into play!

We could all go on and on about this and never agree! The proof; however, is the pudding and the pudding is getting lumpier and lumpier! Those who continue to engage and empower lawlessness are only contributing to it and the fruits of their labor will come back to haunt them!

Come here legally and contribute to what makes America great and you will be welcomed with open arms! Come here illegally and make demands and arms will cross! We are not a third world country and many lives have been lost to keep this country free and prosperous! We are not a third world country because of the men and women who have fought hard and worked hard to create what is now known as the American Dream! It is not a right to have the American Dream! It is a privilege and it must be earned!

For those of us who love America...hang in there! God will always Bless America! Evil and lawlessness will never prevail.

continued...we are becoming divided
And NO immigration today is not the same as before. For one thing, we are allowing too many legally and illegally into this country far too rapidly! Illegals are being exploited on one hand and pandered to on another so now they EXPECT to be pandered to! Immigrants earlier on came here to become AMERICANS! Many even changed their foreign sounding names for American names! There was no welfare! They didn't come here for what they could take and steal but they came here for what they could contribute and build. They were an asset to a new idea and they wanted to be a part of building on that idea. For an idea is nothing but a thought until acted upon. So they quickly became in agreement and worked together!

There were no handouts and they wanted none! They had to work and work hard to make it! They learned English if they didn't already speak it! They did not expect those already here to pander to them! They were motivated to learn and loved being a part of building America! They became devoted to the American Flag and the American culture! They wanted to follow the rule of law...not change it!

If a country is to survive it must maintain a rule of law first and foremost. Those early settlers understood this! They embraced it and they lived it.


We are becoming divided
and it is for a reason! Our government is pandering to illegal immigrants, expecting Americans to bend over backwards, learn Spanish, pay their healthcare, subsidize their incomes, etc. I live in America, not Mexico or any other country. I should not have to learn Spanish to have a roof put on my house, my nephew and 5 other Americans lost their landscaping jobs and were replaced by Mexicans!

A house divided cannot stand and we are becoming a house divided...not to liberate as many believe but to destroy America from the inside out! Only thing is millions are starting to catch on to the plan and will stop it.

The American Dream is not cheap labor! It is not welfare and free health care funded by hard-working American citizens who are being taxed at every turn! The American Dream takes hard work and the desire to learn and educate yourself and be an American!

continued...

The Toeffel exam
My Chilean girlfriend took the Toeffel English proficiency exam today. She was one of only two Hispanics there out of about 30 exam takers. All the rest were Asian or European. What does that tell you? She certainly noticed and told me so when she got home. She stated rhetorically, "How come there were only a couple of Hispanics there when the largest immigrant group in the USA is Hispanic?" She noted that the other Hispanic was Columbian. She then stated, "60% of immigrants to the USA are from Mexico. Where were they? How come they aren't taking the exam to get into college?"

From a very nice elder man
Lemonade writes: 10:21 PM
Talent Scout
No Phyllis is not a very nice lady. I have known
that since the mid 1960's. I won't say, however,
what I do think of her because I try to be a very
nice lady myself.

---------

Has it ever been necessary to tase you?
Hard to imagine it not have happened at sometime.

Talent Scout
No Phyllis is not a very nice lady. I have known
that since the mid 1960's. I won't say, however,
what I do think of her because I try to be a very
nice lady myself.

Talent Scout
No Phyllis is not a very nice lady. I have known
that since the mid 1960's. I won't say, however,
what I do think of her because I try to be a very
nice lady myself.

BRILLIANT TANCREDO VIDEO ON YOUTUBE
Has anyone seen Tom Tancredo's youtube spoof of the Univision debate Sunday? Check it out. It's pretty darn funny and really blasts the candidates for pandering to illegals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5GUCQAdlxg

Look North
For a good idea of what happens if a country as large as the US doesn't have one specific language, you only need look to our north. In the late 70's Canada adopted bilingualism, mandating all food labels, signs, business forms ect; all be printed in both English and French. This was done to appease French separatists. It has done nothing except alienate the rest of Canada from the province of Quebec. Quebec maintains a language police to make sure that businesses use French, the signs must have French predominately displayed over English (not equally). French is mandated in the Quebec schools while the rest of Canada teaches both English and French (and other languages). A majority of students who graduate high school in Quebec, cannot speak English and even after college it isn't much better. Their future is basically going to be tied into Quebec because if they go elsewhere in Canada, French is not looked upon favorably. English is the international language of business and yes there are other languages that are widely used but English is still the most used. If you speak numerous other languages that is all well and good but English is and should be proclaimed as the official national language for the US. This would eleviate a lot of confusion and unwarranted expense in tax dollars for printing official documents in multiple foreign languages. As an example of the earning value of learning English, look at the careers of ABBA, Celine Deon and other foreign entertainers who made it big after they learned and performed in English. I know for some of our liberal friends it may be hard to admit but being an American and speaking English is a good thing. Be proud of it.

"I raised two American boys."
Thirty years ago we met a family from Poland while we were visiting Vienna. The next year they escaped from Poland, we managed to get them to the US.

When I took the youngest boy to grade school he could maybe say “hello” in English. Within a month he was enjoying all the games at recess, within three months could communicate with the teacher in all subjects, and before he graduated from that class, he was considered fluent in English.

I mentioned this to a Mexican lady who taught “English as a Second Language.” She met the Polish boy and could hardly believe what she was hearing, then said, in the same tone of voice as she would use to accuse me of being a child molester, “But he was motivated!!!”
================
The mother could speak not a word of English when she arrived, but after a month of study, she went to lunch with my Sweetie, and they carried on a conversation.
==============
Just for fun, I will add this story.

A couple of months after the Polish family arrived in California, and after studying English all that time, it was necessary that they get driver’s licenses, so we took mother, father and their son to the DMV.

Mother and son appeared to understand the drivers written test OK, but the father gave up, and headed for the parking lot, so I followed.

He still had the uncompleted exam with him, I took it and quickly answered the questions the best I could. He went back inside, got back in line, “passed” the written test, and then the driving test. He has had no traffic ticket or auto accident problems in the past 25 years. Wonderful citizens and friends.
=======
At the 20th anniversary of their arrival, the mother said, “I did not raise two Polish boys in America, I raised two American boys.” Now that’s the way to do it and to tell it. The whole family is American.

They have visited their parents in Poland more than once, and while there, they can’t wait to get HOME. There is no thought of moving back to Poland.

Akagi, I have questions


If our culture is such that others want to come here, and their culture is such that they want to leave there, why bring their culture with them, or at least why not drop the old and adopt the new?

If they are so good, why is their former home such a cesspool?

If they like their culture so much, why don’t they take what they learn here, and go home and fix it up?

Can you name me one item of culture that you know of in some other country that you would like to import, and what part of our culture would you like to see destroyed?

I mean in addition to illegal immigration.

I like the melting pot, not the fruit salad. And you are as fruity as they come.

du
that many of us have family members who considered it the greatest opportunity to come to america to become americans we find it insulting that congress wants to reward criminals with a fast track to citizenship. The report that they are rewarding a gang member and his illegal family citizenship based totally on their testifying against a teacher that took their son to mexico after having a sexual relationship with the punk. My family came here to escape hitler. They took classes, learned english and became citizens. We were raised to value our citizenship and congress at the bidding of various lib groups want to dishonor our families efforts to convey this precious right on illegals. Concerned americans will hopefully vote out of office any member of congress who votes for this type of proposal. Unfortunately the president has betrayed his oath to defend america and has acted as a leading cheerleader for illegals much to his shame and to guarantee a domestic legacy of failure to do his job. So very sad

further to the point
Akagi, European and Asian immigrants were determined and proud to assimilate and WANTED to learn English as the opportunity arose. Sure, they didn't speak it when they got here. So?
The point is, they didn't especially want to have America accomodate their primary language so that they never learned English.
Arguing over language could destroy this country and since so many people from south of the border cannot be determined legal or not, it will make most Hispanics suspect, and why would we want that?
Our elections could be rigged by those unqualified to vote, making the Presidential office at risk of being determined by a foreign government. California already suffers from this issue. And it gets more corrupted by elected officials with Latino names, especially in Los Angeles, CA where I live.
It's not rocket science. You weren't here when a huge mob of people disrupted traffic and young students marched on the freeway for illegal immigrants, waving the Mexican flag.
That IS offensive behavior unto itself and that's supposed to make me like this situation any better or accept it?

Akagi, you misunderstand
I'm not offended by another's language...I am offended that too much favor and accomodation is given to ONE particular language other than English and other than the many languages other people speak. This country enables those who do not know English to not EVER learn it!
And it's not fair, nor wise, nor workable.
Many of us ARE confronted with Spanish in such a way that it takes a lot longer to accomplish a task than it should, AND in ways no other language is accomodated on signage wherever we go.
And it's impossible to know if someone will be able to understand you as if we weren't in America. The determination to assimilate isn't there. The determination to have strong facility with English isn't there.
And 911 dispatchers and other personnel dealing with emergencies have an EXTREMELY hard time doing their jobs or helping someone who needs them. This IS a Tower of Babel problem within America. And it doesn't nor should it have to be.
Do you have ANY idea how much it's costing the justice system to provide translators, for example?

CapeConservative: WELL SAID! Excellent!
Agree 100%






I agree with other posters
that there should be NO MORE (NO MAS) special "caucuses" in the United States of America Congress! NO "black" NO "hispanic" NO "female" NO "homosexual" NO NO NO NOTHING BUT AMERICAN CONGRESSMEN & WOMEN!!!

DIVIDED WE WILL INDEED FALL - and I can remember Nikita Kruschev saying exactly that - that Russia would not have to do us in, we'd do it ourselves. Darned if the "politically correct" among us are giving it their best!

Sloganeering II

Jim:
"And remember, “multiculturalism” is a misprint, it should be spelled “murderculturalism,” as that destroys a culture."

Yup, I'll be sure to remember that pearl of Wisdom.

Jim:
"Multiple cultures within a Border does not improve anything."

This is the veriest nonsense and denial of reality. What is this 'American Culture' that's permeated the whole globe and that drives the greatest, most powerful nation ever to inhabit the Earth, if it is not the sum total of all the best of all the many, many, many different foreign cultures that our heritage of immigrants has brought to our shores over these past two-plus centuries, and melted into America via the 'melting pot'???

We're the greatest nation on Earth because we offer the best opportunity for ambitious, hardworking people to achieve their goals and their happiness. To short-circuit that now, just because the people searching for that better opportunity are just across an imaginary line instead of an ocean, is far, far worse than just shooting oneself in the foot. It's more like shooting oneself in the head!

Sloganeering is poor Excuse for Thought
Jim writes:

"murderculturalism"

Clever. Deep.

Jim:
"A country consists of a Border and a Culture, and a culture includes the language. If you violate our border or our Culture, out you go."

This is the closest you come to coherent thought, and I'd like to respond. I agree that Borders are important to the integrity of a country. However, it's obvious to me that the main reason that our Borders and our Border Laws are so routinely flouted is that all the legal means of crossing our border are irrelevant to the needs of many American citizens and people who wish to come here. Waiting the necessary months and years for legal entry documents is not an option for a peasant whose family has no food, nor will that timeframe serve the American farmer who needs a harvest brought in.

All that is needed to solve the "immigration crisis" is a well-designed and well-run Guest Worker program, which (with significant improvements) could be modeled after the 'Braceros' system that flourished from the 1940s through the early 1960s.

This place is a mess, let’s go to Canada

Akagi writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 10:25 AM
You say a bunch of things - - - - -

=========

They want to come here because we are the best, but then they bring their crappy way of life along, and try to mess up our way of life.

I will say, if these people are so great why is the place they left such a mess? What if Georgie Washington, Tommy Jefferson, and Benny Franklin had said, “This place is a mess, let’s go to Canada.”

If they love their home country so much, after they live here a while, and learn how we live, why don’t they go home and fix up the home place?

I firmly believe that any non-citizen who attends college in the USA, must spend at least 10 years in their home country before they are allowed to reenter the USA. Why leave the rest of the world a mess, just because criminals want to sneak into the US.

I talked to people on Saipan
Akagi writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 5:35 PM
you said,
What facts, Jim? Some fool that told you that?

I say,
No you, “some fool,” YOU, never told me a thing of value.

I told the facts as I know them

I don’t know why the governments involved don’t tell, but even Adm. Nimitz couldn’t understand why it was kept secret so long.

The best story is that she had the plane modified so she could fly over Jap islands, and look at what was going on. Why would you think that the Japs would not be aware of exactly what she was doing, and where she was doing it. You sound like the idiot on this one.

I was there, I talked to people on Saipan, and several US Military, including my brother, a Naval officer who was there at the invasion.

What is your proof, and where did you get your information, from someone who was looking for scam for his book?

Uncle Gene are you mad as in "insane?"
"We have always spoken English here?"

So care to explain the all German-speaking regiments in the Civil War then?

It is Hong Kong and if you want it in Mandarin, it is Xiang Gang, and HK's economic development can be laid at the British feet, not the US, care to explain how HK's development relates to the US or its know how? You are aware that HK is more economically free than the US, right? And since I have made it clear I can't speak Guangdonghua, you should be able to surmise I am not from Hong Kong. What does HK have to do with me?


There are a good number of Chinese speakers in the US, you are aware of that are you not?

Oh and since your post contains a number of errors, complaining about how well people speak or write English is pretty bad form. You know the pot calling the kettle black.

Joke
akagi, your post are a joke. Somehow I think you and your asian as*kissing lot would be the first to line up at Taxpayers hog trough,all the while bad mouthing this great country. I could care less how many languages you speak,that just means you are a bi-lingual lib-loon. So there are some big buildings in hong cong and that proves what? That they are good at copying American know how. (can you say TV,VCR etc.). People like you are a disgrace to our way of life. You want OUR milk and honey but you want it served in a FOREIGN language. This now the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA we have always spoken ENGLISH here and if you don,t like it move to a place where they speak chinese. Problem solved. Same goes for mexicans.

Jim
What facts, Jim? Some fool that told you that? "I've saw her here back in 1942 and la la la." Has there been any records in Japan from the Kempeitai or the IJA or the IJN or any other Japanese agency? If the Americans could find out who killed the POWs on Wake, don't you think they could have found out about her if she was captured? Did a single credible Japanese witness ever come forward to claim this? No! Army intelligence who poured through the Japanese records after the war stated the Japanese had nothing to do with her disappearance.

The claims of Saipan have NEVER been confirmed. The examination on Nikumaroro is much more convincing than these unsupported claims about Japan and Saipan. and Jim as for why people come to the US read my post at 12/11/2007 at 10:25 a.m.




for the record
my wife, who was born Ecuadorean, also is offended by the sense of entitlement of illegal Mexicans, and offended that those who try to enter legally are being pre-empted by those who break the law.

hispanic assimilation
The point of Mrs. S's article is that it is not clear if assimilation will occur with the current hispanic influx.

There are 2 reasons to share her concern:

1) many hispanics - especially Mexicans - have a sense of entitlement regarding the US. They feel they have a right to be here for historical reasons. They don't accept the borders as drawn you might say. Therefore they resist assimilation because they feel at home already without changing their language or traditions.

2) the government has been overcome with multi-culturalism in a way which is historically new, so that tendencies to resist assimilation are reinforced by the US Government. You would think that the US Government would have an interest in changing people's minds about the legitimacy of the nation's borders.

That's why "the jury is still out" on the assimilation of today's hispanic immigrants.

akagi
there is an american culture. It shows itself everytime there is a disaster in another part of the world and americans come to the aid of the distressed. There is the love of country and celebrating holidays particular to america. There is the honoring of the accomplishments of our citizens irrespective of cultural heritage. There is the sense of pride that comes from being an american and living in a free society where we don't have to worry about a repressive govt.

New Rule (Part II)
...And if you're pushing for a pure American culture not contaminated by filthy immigrant practices, you certainly won't want to have a Christmas tree...a custom brought to these shores by Germans. Also check out about half of all popular Christmas carols, likewise German in origin. Santa Claus? Dutch, so get rid of him.

Joke
A Spaniard and a Frenchman were watching a girl ice skate. She fell, and accidentally landed in an immodest position. "Ah, c'est la vie," said the Frenchman. "Yo tambien se la vi," said the Spaniard, "pero no dije nada".

Now, folks, don't you wish you knew some other languages so you could understand the joke?

Travel is broadening.

Newsflash for Pat
Pat is right about little, so quoting him does you no favors. News for Pat--not everyone who came from Europe spoke English. The largest ethnic group in the US is German and while most Germans were Christians (Catholics in the south, Lutherns in the north), many didn't speak English, but their children learned...and that is the case today. Mexican culture is also European-based, or didn't Pat realize that Spain was part of Europe and aren't Catholics Christian still?

While Asians, African and West Indian immigration has increasd since 1965, most today legal abnd illegal come from the Americas--and thus from a European background. I guess Pat forgot to qualify it by using Anglo-Saxon Europeans. I think that is his problem--these "Europeans" aren't the right skin tone.

New Rule
It's official: only pure American culture will now be allowed. Therefore, say goodbye to spaghetti, sushi, bagels, egg rolls, pizza, felafel, gefillte fish, noodle pudding, Schnecken, antipasto, French bread, pumpernickel bread, pita bread, black beans & rice, tamales, tacos, enchiladas, tortas, gyros, moussaka, baklava, saganaki, lutefisk, hummos, tabbouleh, sukiyaki, Peking duck, Feta cheese, gin, ice cream, chocolate in all forms, artichokes, broccoli, frankfurters, braunschweiger liverwurst, bratwurst, polenta, pinto beans, Sauerbraten, chili peppers, okra, bouillabaisse, coleslaw, curry, shish kebab, pierogies, and Weiner Schitzel.

We will get along just fine on a diet of acorns and pumpkins (thanks to our Native American hosts). The question is whether we will accept the homebrewed beer and roast game of our English colonist ancestors, since they, too, came here as immigrants.

I said that, Akagi didn't
should have been a line

==========

Seldom do I read such garbage. Where were you educated, Mexico?

What I have is facts
Akagi writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 2:53 PM

Seldom do I read such garbage. Where were you educated, Mexico?

With your help millions of Americans from Texas to Calif can save their time and money, and not travel to Mexico. All they need to do is drive a few miles and they can see a Mexican Slum and garbage pit.
------------
You said, … …when outside the US demand that their country speak your language, adapt to your customs, etc. and they do because they like your money,

I have visited 70 countries just because I love their country and their culture, at their home, where it belongs.

-------
American culture (if there is even such a thing) would be pretty bland without contributions from other cultures.

I am not talking about cultural item that came to this country centuries ago, or any item brought here by an America who loved that item. I am talking about sloppy cultural items brought here by people too stupid, like you, to adopt our way of life.

If the American Culture (and there is such a thing, the most loved in the world) is not so great, why do the world’s people try to get here, rather than to India, the mid East, and all those other lovely places that sound like your choice?
----------

Wasn’t it the Mexican President who said where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico. Does that make you happy? Move there, if you can find a way to do it.
----------

You said that I
post totally insane things like I was at the prison where AE was held and now this "Multiple cultures within a Border does not improve anything."

When did you last visit Saipan, and who did you talk to? I am sure that few if any people in Saipan today, were alive in WW II. That was awhile ago.

I have all the proof I need that AE was in prison in Saipan. You give me some facts that prove else wise. Tell me who you talk to who knew her and fed her in Saipan. None of this nonsense that we read in books these days.

What I have is facts.

Languages
NB:

"I've glanced at some of your banal little history lessons and I realize that you're really not worth the trouble."

Care to expand on that...my banal history lessons. And if you think I'm not worth the trouble good, one less idiot I have to respond to.

You learn another language. Great...which one just to satisfy my curiousity?

And I never said that all expats didn't learn the language did I, but from my experience that is not typical. And many Mexicans do in fact try to learn English, but perhaps not as fast as you and your "they ain't assimilating" clowns want, but unlike you they are picking grapes and framing houses and other backbreaking jobs.

What level of fluency did you reach anyway and how long did it take? Learning a new language especially when you are doing hard labor for 8-10 hours a day and perhaps aren't the most educated person on earth takes time, something you and PS and others seem to ignore.

“E Pluribus Unum”
RE: Rob do me a favor define American culture.

Maybe this will help. It's by Pat Buchanan:

America was settled by colonists from the British Isles. In 1789, two centuries after
Jamestown and Plymouth Rock, we were 99 percent Protestant. Until the Irish came in 1845,
there was almost no immigration. Even during the Great Wave of 1890-1920, the number of
immigrants was a fraction of the 38 million here today. And all had come from Europe.
By 1960, we were almost 90 percent European and more than 90 percent Christian – of one
nationality, American, one language, English, and one culture.

On the Great Seal of the United States, first suggested by the Continental Congress on
July 4, 1776, there was to be emblazoned a new motto: “E Pluribus Unum” – “Out of many, one.”

Invading Mexicans
Invading Mexicans NEVER INTENDED to obey our laws. You ignore their statements at the peril of our nation when they publically state that they are going to take this land for 'La Raza'. It becomes especially clear when you note that mexican officials have been quickly and quietly building the bases of Mexican government in as many states as they can. They call these places: Mexican consulates, and Hispanic Chamber of Commerces. These are the places that are helping them get fake and stolen IDs and arrange the 'business' deals to defraud the American workers, not to mention our laws. Oh, and they have a lot of agriculture offices too. I assume those are the invaders making the deals with farmers. They have a lot of anger with the American corporations that moved there and won't even pay them living wages even though it is as cheap to live there as you can find in any country.If I were invading a country I would work for peanuts too, and plot my revenge...

akagi
How dare you...

"Like to hear them and are they any different from groups in the past and would you if in their shoes be any different?"

I have been in their shoes and I was different. I wasn't picking grapes in a field but I did learn the language and the culture of a foreign country, not only for necessity but, out of respect for that country and I met many expatriots who conducted themselves in the same way.

You write, "Don't care if you are offended and how can it be a caricature when it is the truth. You and those like you jump up and down and howl at the moon about assimilation and then when outside the US demand that their country speak your language, adapt to your customs, etc and they do because they like your money, but Americans should be the last people on the planet to complain about the lack of assimilation."

Again...how dare you. I'm almost offended but, I've glanced at some of your banal little history lessons and I realize that you're really not worth the trouble.

Assimilation
NB:

I would ask if that stands for no brains, but I'll be nice for a change.

"The world learns English because it benefits it in business and finance."

The same reason stores offer bilingual signs voice mail, etc in the US, because it is good for business.

"I could rant on about the reasons I'm offended by the attitudes and the refusals of many of our recent immigrants to assimilate in the most fundamental ways."

Like to hear them and are they any different from groups in the past and would you if in their shoes be any different?

"I'm also offended by your caricature of the ugly American who couldn't learn a foreign language if need be."

Don't care if you are offended and how can it be a caricature when it is the truth. You and those like you jump up and down and howl at the moon about assimilation and then when outside the US demand that their country speak your language, adapt to your customs, etc and they do because they like your money, but Americans should be the last people on the planet to complain about the lack of assimilation.

I do have a life and at this point in time I am content to post retorts to modern-day Know Nothings.

Culture
cbgaloot:

Had trees cut down a few years ago. Hired a company--the cheapest that was also bonded, etc.

Those that showed up to do the job were all Hispanic--only the crew chief as I'll call him could speak English. All the trees got to the ground and nothing was crushed and no one got killed or injuried and the trees got hauled away.

The warehouse sorters worked there for a good while without any problems, so it seems to me that English wasn't all that important for them to do their jobs.

And Jim:

I know you might be senile or something so this is why you post totally insane things like I was at the prison where AE was held and now this "Multiple cultures within a Border does not improve anything."

Like me to list just some of the things that other cultures have brought you? The language you speak is mostly French-based, you write on something invented by the Chinese, on July 4th, you watch things explode in the air something again produced by the Chinese, the compass, yep, the Chinese again, and wrought Iron too and the printing press and so on and so on. In the book, "Zhong Guo ke yi shuo bu (the China that can say no" the authors stated that China should charge you royalities for its use--not so sure how far they'd get with that though.

Few foods in the US can be considered purely American, the language is a mixture of words for all over--where did the term gung ho come from or Kow tow? Or Ketchup--which was also invented by the Chinese and since we are on the subject noodles which are a stable of Italian food such as Spaghetti--yep, Chinese again.

American culture (if there is even such a thing) would be pretty bland without contributions from other cultures.



akagi
The world bends over backwards for you--what are you talking about?????

The world doesn't do anything for "you". The world learns English because it benefits it in business and finance.

I could rant on about the reasons I'm offended by the attitudes and the refusals of many of our recent immigrants to assimilate in the most fundamental ways.

I'm also offended by your caricature of the ugly American who couldn't learn a foreign language if need be.

But I have to go to work and I don't have time to address all the liberal cliches that you've spewed forth today...you certainly have spent a lot of time here...don't you have a life?

Englis IS the official language.
Quote from another poster

sorting clothes in a warehouse I don't see how English is that key to the job performance really.

End Quote.

Supervisor; Put the winter clothes in one pile and the summer clothes in another pile.

Worker; No hablan Englaise Senior.

Looks like it could be a problem to me.

English IS the official language in The United States. It may not be written on a piece of parchment anywhere, but it is the official language.

It's the language all our important documents have been written in from the Mayflower Compact to the Declaration of Independence, to the Constitution. It is the language our lawmakers use in Congress and the language the laws are written in. It's the language of the market place and the work place.

It's the official language. Get over it.

Assimilation
For all that is being made about the hispanic population, we have already bent over backwards to make those who came here legally as comfortable as though they had never left the old country. Spanish is every where and english is something you have to ask for, TV, newspapers, books, phones, business. Why assimilate if your never going to have to speak english? The politicians are just pandering like hell to this never assimilate attitude, all you have to do is vote for the one's who want to keep their office and to hell with the country's primary language. Who needs ingleas, Gringo's?

murderculturalism
A country consists of a Border and a Culture, and a culture includes the language. If you violate our border or our Culture, out you go.

And remember, “multiculturalism” is a misprint, it should be spelled “murderculturalism,” as that destroys a culture. Multiple cultures within a Border does not improve anything.

Akagi
Thanks for you very informative posts.

YLG is right, do that blog please.

It was a pleasure to employ Chinese restaurant workers.

Every one learned English, and were dedicated capitalists.

We all stay in touch. It is such fun to hear about their continued sucess.

What They All Said!

I didn't plow through all the comments t this column, but I'm happy to see that many people besides myself realize that immigrants are assimilating these days just as much as they ever did, and that the assimilation or 'melting pot' process has always worked by a timeframe measured in generations, not months or years.

Blogs
Yeah I guess I should get around to doing that at some point.

And Du:

Ni hui shuo liang ge yuyan ma? Tai hao le!

I speak two and a few words of another three.

But does this "There is no, nor should there be ANY requirement that an American learn another language or be confronted constantly by another language in their public accomodation. It is confusing and takes up space needed for another purpose" include the border patrol? And the last part, does that mean you should have the right not to hear another language? If you do not have the right not to be offended, what gives you the right not to be exposed to other languages. I'd like to see where this right derives from.





Americans are so adept at languages too
"Of course, if the situation were reversed and it was massive migration of Americans to other countries, would we have to learn the language spoken there? Would we have to conform to their culture? Of COURSE!"

My experience is that this isn't true. Few lao wai I met in Taiwan can speak Taiwanese or Chinese for that matter. There is a Ph.D. there I know, his wife, Taiwanese, he works as an adjunct professor teaching in ENGLISH. When he was asked did he know any Chinese, his response was--a little, but it is too hard. Actually while harder than Spanish or French, it is not that difficult of a language. I've known people who have lived in Taiwan for decades and not been able to say much more than "wo yao pijiu (I want beer).

English street signs abound, restaurant staff, etc can speak English...oh and our Ph.D. friend? As long as you have a international driver's license, you can get a ROC one--no test at all--no ability to speak or read Chinese required. He legally drives through the streets of Taipei.

The world bends over backwards for you--what are you talking about?????

And if the BFOQ requires you to learn another language to get the job, then best learn that language. There a number of people in places like Japan and Taiwan and elsewhere that are required to learn English in their jobs too.

Yes, NumbersUSA that fantasy website that thinks they'll ever get the number of immigrants down to 250,000 at some point and where is Tom Tancredo in the polls? Has he got above 5% yet? He will soon be leaving Congress too. Yeah, one trick ponies usually don't have much of a shelf life.


Akagi
Have you thought about starting a blog?

You have a unique perspective, and a blog would make it easier on you to impart the info. I would be a regular!!

Dialects
China as I said claims they are dialects, but yes, they are really different languages, but if you can read and write Chinese, you can still communicate because the Chinese in written form is the same no matter what dialect you use with this exception--in China, Malaysia and Singapore they use simplified Chinese--a form of written Chinese produced by the communists to "make it easier to learn to read and write Chinese." I have a different theory and one that claims their motives were more sinister.

Taiwan, Hong Kong and overseas Chinese in places like the US still use the tradition forms. I can't read most of the simplified forms known as jianti in Chinese. The term used for these dialects usually is "hua" meaning speech, but I know in Taiwan Minnanhua is usually spoken as Taiyu in Mandarin and yu means language. In China, Taiyu is called Minnanhua (basically speech of the Southern Min--meaning those in southern Fujian) and in Taiwan, it is Taiyu (the language of Taiwan) or course in China, Mandarin is called putonghua (the common speech) and in Taiwan, Guoyu (the national language), but depending on your politics, more are calling Guoyu, putonghua, because to them, Guoyu isn't the national language--although formally it is, Taiyu is.




good for one, not for all
Je parle troi langues...c'est bon pour u, mais pas ce bon pour l'Etas Unis.

Hablo tres linguas, este bueno por uno, pero no bueno por los Estados Unidos.

I speak three languages, it's good for one, but not so good for the United States.
I'm sure no one here is at issue with the ability to speak more than one language.
However, America's government documents and business language IS English. To go to school and attend to one's professional life require that EVERYONE knows that they can be understood.
In a private social situation, by all means have at whatever language in which you are comfortable. There have been many tragedies and civil lawsuits brought against people in THIS country because they didn't know or understand the language of people from somewhere else. This isn't fair.
Those who are here, VOLUNTEER for the privilege of living or working in this country. If you can't be so bothered to learn this country's first language SHAME on you.
Especially if you are a permanent resident.
There is no, nor should there be ANY requirement that an American learn another language or be confronted constantly by another language in their public accomodation. It is confusing and takes up space needed for another purpose.
And the favor given to Spanish speakers is also unfair to those whose first language is something else. I speak other languages because I want to. And speak it to others as a courtesy. However, I've made more foreign born friends from those determined to speak English.

Oh, and may I add, Wildwest.
The fact Mrs Clinton's mouth can formulate Ebonics can be credited to her years of marriage to wild Billy, and no doubt his, er, shall we say "under the desk" tutelage...harumph harumph.

I wonder....
how many Americans have been denied job opportunities IN America because they do not speak a foreign language. Oh, wait...I know of one...ME! Of course, if the situation were reversed and it was massive migration of Americans to other countries, would we have to learn the language spoken there? Would we have to conform to their culture? Of COURSE! Can you imagine the outcry if we didn't?? Yet no outrage over the intentional displacement of our own citizens in our own country due to massive influx of peoples that refuse to assimilate. Well, that isn't completely true, either. There IS an outrage that is boiling over in America from our own citizens. Now, if only our government listened....

Btw, NumbersUSA.com has assessed all the presidential candidates in both parties on this issue. Only ONE is consistently graded Excellent....Tom Tancredo!

Greetings, Wildfella.
Ebonics? Darn it, I think you've got me there. My mouth just can't deform itself enough to formulate such gutteral sounds. But that's just an accident of birth. Hehehehe...

Akagi
The script was phonetically written for her by Mandarin-speaking crewmembers. As I said, it was eye-opening for me, finding out these weren't dialects at all, but different languages!!

Languages
My ATM has a choice of English, Chinese (traditional form), Russian and Spanish. I am unsure how many WaMU branches there are out there, but that seems pretty common to me. I bet if you were to go to northern Maine, you'd find some ATMs and other services offered in French as well.

And this statement by you "If it was possible to outlaw this practice by making English the only language permitted for commercial transactions, I would definitely support it" seems to be the complete opposite of this statement "Frankly, I don't care what language you speak in a bank, store or any other place or, would any other person who believes in the First Amendment."

Official documents are in the primary language of the country, when did I say there should be things like bilingual passports?

And wildwest, I think you miss PS' point. In her opening salvo she said this "Are you tired of anonymous voices on the phone telling you to "Press 1 (or sometimes 2) for English"?".

She also said this "Pew also reported that 28 percent of Latino immigrants speak only Spanish on the job." She seems to care a great deal about what language people speak or what languages a business may offer and a good number of people at TH do as well it seems.


motely
until you can match the missus clinton and speak fluent ebonics I refuse to be impressed with your language skills.

Wo hu cang long
She is a Chinese Malay and speaks English, Malay and Cantonese (Guangdonghua) a good number of people from Hong Kong and Guangdong as well as overseas Chinese whose parents, grand parents, etc came from Guangdong can't speak Mandarin.

She may could have been able to read the script if it was written in Chinese and she can read, but the way it is spoken is totally different--such as Happy New Year is Gong hay fat choy in Cantonese but In Mandarin Gong xi fa cai and since the movie was supposed to take place in northern China someplace (and except for Xinjiang that is where it was filmed--northern China), you'd have to it in Mandarin, not Cantonese. However, it is said she can't read Chinese either.

Her co-star though Chow Yun Fat (Zhou Runfa), although born in Hong Kong, can speak Mandarin fluently as well as Cantonese and English.


To :Akagi; From: Matt; Re: Deference
To: Akagi From: Matt

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Frankly, I don't care what language you speak in a bank, store or any other place or, would any other person who believes in the First Amendment. But, I fail to see how a common language for business transactions abridges the freedom of speech of any individual. Do we issue drivers licenses or other official documents in any language that the recipient feels comfortable with? The last time I looked, I don't think so. We issue official documents in English. And as to your assertion that it is simply untrue about other ethnic groups. When was the last time you saw a computer screen in common usage that offered a choice for German, Italian or French languages so those immigrants could also communicate a business transaction in their native language? If you have seen one in common usage, I'd sure like to know where.

Regards,

Matt

Good morrow, YLG, mon petite fleur.
English is my first language, but, as I've just demonstrated, I speak many languages fluently: American, Australian, New Zealand, etc. I'm a product of a well-rounded education, if I do say so myself. Harumph, harumph.

So how are you, m'dear?

Tinsldr2, Akagi
Good morning!

As a Puertorican who came to the mainland knowing four words of English, I can speak about the assimilation process. All my dad had to say was, "You have a year to learn English, or you go live with your grandmother." While I loved my grandmother very much, she was NOT the fun grandparent, and I was motivated to learn English in less than nine months! It was SO COOL to know more than one language!!!

I agree that the First Amendment should be observed, and you can't in good conscience force people to speak only one language. When it comes to gov't issues, however, only one language should be used, and I don't mean French. And the borders SHOULD BE CLOSED IMMEDIATELY, PERIOD.

BTW, Akagi, I remember the making of the film, "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", and Michelle Yeoh had to have her script done phonetically in Mandarin, since she didn't speak the language! It was eye-opening for me!

Language is only part of the problem....
"The jury is still out on whether those 10.3 million will assimilate into the American socioeconomic culture or will remain in neighborhoods where they associate only with each other and fail to communicate and compete with citizens of their adopted country."

This is the real danger posed by those who resist assimilating into our country. Just ask the French how well their "diversity" ignorance is working out with their Muslim population.


On this we agree
"As to ILLEGAL immigration that is another story. We must close our borders to criminals, and not because they speak another language but because they are illegal."

Nothing to add.

The Balkans
Language differences didn't cause the Balkans--most people in the former Yugoslavia did have a common language. The breakup was due mostly to economics and political divisions. The rich republics of Croatia and Slovenia which got tons of cash from tourism from rich western Europeans didn't want to continue to send its wealth to Serbia and resented the political power the Serbs had inside the nation (created out of whole cloth by British Imperialists).

The Croats and Slovenians are Catholic mostly, the Serbs Orthodox. If you want to use the Balkans as an example, then the lesson would be that the US should have a single religion. Religion seems to be the root cause of most conflicts, not language. Different language speakers in India seem to get along just fine, it is when people of different faiths get mixed in that you have blood on the floor.

China has hundreds and hundreds of languages (which for political reasons China calls dialects, but are so distinct from each other a speaker of one in most cases will not understand the speak of another. To say you don't want something in Mandarin is "bu yao" but in Taiwanese it is "bo ai."

There are few conflicts in China based on what dialect you speak and in Taiwan, there are three major dialects spoken--Guoyu (Mandarin), Taiyu or Minnanhua (Taiwanese) and Kejiahua (Hakka)--and any problems over language was due to Mandarin being forced down everyone throats starting in 1945 by the Chiang regime--which is a similar road many like PS seem to want to follow.


Immigration vs 1st Amendment
This is one of the rare instances of me agreeing with Lilly and Akagi.

The 1st amendment guarantees freedom of speech. That means you can speak in any language or no language. I do agree Gov business should be done in English as official language but individuals can speak any language for private or business reasons. It is that simple. I love my country because of our constitution and freedoms. The freedom of speech applies to every legal person be they tourist, resident alien (legal), Naturalized citizen, or born a citizen.

As to ILLEGAL immigration that is another story. We must close our borders to criminals, and not because they speak another language but because they are illegal.

The golden age of immigration myth
"The number one priority of the immigrants coming here in the flood of the early 20th centrury was to learn English. This is no longer the case."

Immigrants learn English today just as always did. The myth of a golden era of immigration where all the immigrants got down and learned English the second that got off the boat is just that a myth. Some learned it to various degrees of fluency, others never did--same as today.

The number one priority of immigrants was to find employment to feed, house and cloth themselves and their family...and just like today, not all these immigrants did so lawfully.

akagi
you still miss the point. What people do with their private lives and in the comfort of their homes or at social gatherings is their buysiness. But the public forumn still needs to use one language. My wife works in a hospital and they tried to get the employees to learn to speak spanish to deal with the increasing numbers of hispanics seeking treatment. They abandoned the plan to avoid the risk of mis-communication and possible mis-diagnosis and instead hired people fluent in english and spanish. And of course this added to the overall expense of running the hospital. There seems to be something wrong when persons coming to this country either legally or as we have in ariz large numbers of illegals, and fail to have adequate skills to communicate while in this country. Why must americans continue to bear the burden of adjusting their lives to accomodate these vast numbers of both legal and illegal immigrants. BTW I have friends in canada who don't like the idea that they must learn french merely to accomodate those living in quebec.

Because
"If we are such an evil place why are millions clamoring to come here."

1) The US has the largest economy on Earth. (Which if current trends continue won't be the case in the middle decades of this century)

2) Although not as open as others, has a fairly liberal immigration policy

3) Higher HDI countries often have more restrictive immigration policies, so even if a person would rather go to say Sweden than the US, that choice is not always an option.

4) If you look at country of origins of most immigrants today they come from places such as China, Mexico, India, etc--where would you as a ordinary Chinese rather live...in the US or Changsha someplace?

Read the report:
"Nearly all Hispanic adults born in the United States of immigrant parents report they are fluent in English. By contrast, only a small minority of their parents describe themselves as skilled English speakers. This finding of a dramatic increase in English-language ability from one generation of Hispanics to the next emerges from a new analysis of six Pew Hispanic Center surveys conducted this decade among a total of more than 14,000 Latino adults. The surveys show that fewer than one-in-four (23%) Latino immigrants reports being able to speak English very well. However, fully 88% of their U.S.-born adult children report that they speak English very well. Among later generations of Hispanic adults, the figure rises to 94%. Reading ability in English shows a similar trend.

As fluency in English increases across generations, so, too, does the regular use of English by Hispanics, both at home and at work. For most immigrants, English is not the primary language they use in either setting. But for their grown children, it is."

http://ednews.org/articles/20352/1/English-Usage-Among-Hisp anics-in-the-United-States/Page1.html

Most Advanced?
Depends how you define your terms. Using the Human Development Index, the US is not #1, I think it is #7 or 8 or so. Still very advanced though.

And Lily, don't bother with TS unless you like humor. He has called me among other things a enemy of the US--I loved that one.

Yes Duff that First Amendment is a pesky thing isn't it? You know freedom of expression and association, those nasty little things.

I propose you start a movement to repeal the First Amendment as soon as possible.

I could (if I so desired) get Chinese broadcasts via DirectTV, would you ban that? I can rent Chinese language DVDs--even at--gasp!--Blockbuster. Letters from Iwo Jima was in--oh my god--Japanese...oh the humanity!

Many DVDs also have French and Spanish..ban those? The DVD for Lawrence of Arabia has Chinese subtitles. I got a DVD the other day with some of the greatest American movies including Casablanca and African Queen--Chinese subtitles. Want to ban that? Should films like Ba wang bie ji (Farewll my Concubine) or Yin Shi Nan Nu (Eat, Drink, Man Woman) be forced to be shown in English inside the US?

What others parts of the Constitution would you like to destroy so we will know.


Rob
do me a favor define American culture.


Anti-freedom nuts
"If it was possible to outlaw this practice by making English the only language permitted for commercial transactions, I would definitely support it."

So Matt, you are against the First Amendment, good to know--what other parts of the Constitution do you hate as well so we will know.

Amd why should you care what language I use on my ATM or speak inside a bank?

"No other ethic group had a choice in languages."

Basically untrue.

What does this even mean
TS:

Care to translate this "No other nation in the world demands their own citizens beg to speak their native tongue."


Independence from more than England
The US is losing its greatness because the rugged indivualism and entepreneurship that allowed a person to "pick himself up by his own bootstraps" has been replaced by myriads of government intrusions and regulation on anyone trying to start their own business, by anti-descrimination laws that prevents them from hiring those who have the same values and work ethic, by minimum wage laws that impede start-ups. (When Microsoft was first starting out, many of the originals received stock-options in the company that had no market value in lieu of paychecks, violating minimum wage laws.)

We were independent. Now we live in a nanny state because mommy is out working to pay for the nanny, rather than staying home and doing it herself. (Almost all home-school kids are taught by mom, not dad BTW, and seem to have cornered all the spelling bee contests along the way I might add).

The US is not a bi-lingual nation
The reason this nation flourished was that English was the common language. Where you spoke German, Russian, Polish, Gaelic, Hebrew, any of the dozen dialects of Chinese, or Spanish, Portuguese, Swahili, or whatever, the only way such a melting pot could perform work and commerce and grow the national ecomony was to use English. Only recently has the press 1 for english, phenomenon at the ATM become de rigour, and to be politcally correct, braille is also present on the drive-up ATM's as well!

At my Catholic grade school in inner-city Chicago, we constantly received students from other countries that didn't speak English. We didn't have bilingual teachers (even though the priests spoke Latin) or bilingual classes. We took the smartest kids in that class (who were bored anyway) and the new arrival, put their desks in the hallway, had them go down to the Kindegarten and get the "A is for Apple" books, and the next day the "See Dick and Jane" books from the first grade, several days later the second grade english books" . We didn't bother with math because 2 + 2 = 4 in every language and english wasn't necessary. But within a few weeks to a few months if they were in the upper grades when they arrived, all were up to speed, and despite heavy accents could get decent grades in class and play. The hardest part was to explain the rules of baseball!

Surprisingly, the bright kids learned very little if any of the foreign language during the process, but did learn how to teach. Try doing this in a government school run by a teacher's union, where the bright kids would be considered scabs.

Qestion for Lilly (2)
Question 2): At one time, we were the best in every category you describe. What changed was the liberalization (I rather call it sissyfication if that is a real word) of our nation. We let mommy go to work and school under the guise of woman's liberation and they abandoned the children that a billion years of Darwinian evolution had designed the female of our race to bear, nuture, and raise. THe children are then to fend for themselves in government run schools that now spend half their time teaching Jose to read and write in Spanish so he only gets half the English he needs, and the other children are deprived of tax dollars towards their English only education. We became so politically correct that we hamstring any effort to identify the real causes of bigotry which is sterotyping. If your behavor as a culture mimickes the stereotype, you only serve to reinforce it not eliminate from our culture.

Call me a sexist, but then Darwin and evolution are sexist too, not just Christian conservatives.

As much as the man's comments are often just as savage as his stage name, borders, language and culture are the glue that put together this country and allowed it to achieve its greatest faster and farther than any other nation in history.

We fall behind now because we have abandoned our borders, our language and our culture.

Questions for Lilly (1)
You remarked " We (America) don't have the best-educated kids. We don't have the best health care system. We don't have the best figures for infant mortality. We don't have the best social services. We don't have the best public transportation. We don't have the tallest building. We don't have the fanciest shopping mall. We don't have the fastest cars. We used to be the gold standard in medical research, but thanks to conservative priorities, this is no longer true. Our currency is dropping like a rock. We can't even pay our national bills and have gone deeply in debt to a few of those countries you think aren't as advanced as we are.

Question 1): If our country is so miserable, why do we have millions sneaking in under the fence to liver hear? Why don't they go to Switzerland (multi-lingual), or Iceland (best economy), or Indonesia (tallest building), or Canada (national health care) or any part of the EU where our dollar is dropping like a rock, or Venezuela where the national debt is just written off by the World Bank?


Semperfi/par
I know what you mean.

I lived in Miami for almost 20 years, having left it in 1997. It has a good bit of excitement, and some attractive features.

BUT, as an American I sometimes felt I was in a foreign nation, with strange customs. And I began to deeply resent that.

I believe Miami is much less hospitable to English than New York City, for Miami rightly regards itself as the capital of Latin America, while NYC regards itself as the capital of the world(in many respects).

And since much of the world transacts alot of its business in English, be it science, transportation(pilots, air traffic controllers), commerce, etc., English profiency is highly valued if not essential...more so in NYC than in Miami, overall.

Miami
Just visit Miami and travel down 8th street if you want to see diversity at its best. Most people in Miami look at you like you are nuts if you don't speak Spanish. They all smile and say you should learn Spanish if you live in Miami.
There is no cultural diversity in Miami. Its all Hispanic. The funny thing is there is plenty of racism with in the many Hispanic cultures because they all do not come from the same Country. I use to make them angry by saying Spanish is not a race, it's a language. Your ancestors came here from Europe just like the English only their former colonies are somewhat better off than the former Spanish colonies.

read this..become more enlightened.
We need to radically alter the "mix" of immigrants.

Stop discriminating against immigrants from the "developed" world in favor of immigrants from less developed areas of the globe.

"Anchor babies" must not automatically gain U.S. citizenship.

More importantly, we must structure the infusion of immigrants so as to benefit OUR nation.

Our nation does not exist in order to absorb all of the world's poverty stricken.

To that end, we must radically reduce, if not eliminate, the numbers of immigrants who possess no or little education, and no skills.

And we must increase the numbers of immigrants with college degrees, especially in the hard sciences, and those immigrants with skills in the trades...electricians, etc...regardless of country of origin.

akagi
Most of us who want English as the offical language in the U.S. also what SAP and full spanish language T.V. off the air! How are imigrants going to learn English if they keep watching T.V. and listening to radio station in spanish? They can't. So do offer it.

cornpone
the issue is not whether these illegals are friendly, or hardworking or pocessing certain values. It is the mere fact they are here illegally. We have a right to know who has entered our country and for what purpose. But probably we would have been far more successful in invading mexico than in invading iraq and had a far easier task removing the oligarchy that victimizes mexicans rather than the blood cult we are facing in the m/e. It would be to everyone's advantage to have a prosporous southern neighbor than the third world toliet we are facing. Why wasn't mexico given the chance to grow their economy the way china has. I can't believe the ignorant masses in mexico are any less motivated than their equally downtrodden equals in china. Bolstering mexico's economy would have been far more desirous than aiding and abetting the chicoms but the leftists under the clinton's were open to chinese money bribes that the mexicans were not able to deliver. And still the leftists/dims maintain the clintons act on principle. Of course they do but that is on the principle of the balance in their bank accounts.

lilly 3
I see your other hero, the liar clinton is actively campaigning to see he gets another shot at running the country. Your continued fantasy that he was a victim pursued by the oversexed monica isn't getting much play. By his own admission bubba molested 200 plus women but since he is a liberal you conveniently overlook his boorish behavior. Your real regret probably focuses along the line you are far too old to have had a similar monica moment

lilly 2
i forgot to mention our great debt of gratitude we owe to your hero, your fellow mass lib swimmer kennedy who you hail as a lion in the senate and how yoiu dismiss his part in killing a young girl as akin to a college prank. Thanks to your hero kennedy we have a very coarse political dialogue and who as a spoiled rich boy only understands hiding his wealth in safe off shore accounts to limit the tax liability he has no problem passing on the average americans while he has worked for the passage of spending billions to further fund the failed govt programs all you socialists favor. But it probably fits into your past career as a school teacher. I doubt you advocated personal responsibility but instead believed and taught that the govt is ultimately responsible to fund all failures. BTW have yiou and your fellow morons found a growing majority to favor your other great plan that the govt should bail out everyone who suffers from natural disasters

lilly
your basic hatred of the things america stands for continues to come forward. We have more opportunities than any place on earth but libs like you always make excuses for the losers that refuse to take responsibilities for their own lives. If we are such an evil place why are millions clamoring to come here. But simpletons like you always blame america for others failures. But all you pathetic old hippies whoi mlonged for all the glories of failed socialism cling to the hope that your last chance at destroying america lies with the missus clinton. If we are in fact so backwards in everything where is the reverse immigration. Where are all you and your so called sensible fellows telling others there is a better place to live. With estimates of 40 million illegals infesting our borders it would seem this is the place people want to be. But if you are so concerned over the debt explain the 11 trillion dollars the dims have pushed to be spent on failed govt programs to end the effects of poverty. Liberal policies have bankrupted america and still you and the rest of your ilk continue to throw money at failed programs that have only entitled a segment of this country to remain destituteand ill prepared to take responsibilities for their own failures. In your world you would rather punish success and reward failure.

lilly writes:
Let us focus instead on your racism in referring to Akagi's "betters". Can you explain why you chose to use that word?
------

ts:
Let us focus on your wild eyed accusations lilly, and your need to see evil in conservatives.

The very nice lady Phyllis
Comes and points out something that offends many Americans, with no attacks on any person, not any name calling.
The lower life forms who come and call her names is calling their better their own family names as far as I am concerned, like Akagi.
---------

Quote Phyllis:

To Assimilate or not to Assimilate: That is the Quesion
By Phyllis Schlafly
Monday, December 10, 2007

Are you tired of anonymous voices on the phone telling you to "Press 1 (or sometimes 2) for English"? The ability to speak and communicate in English is the litmus test of whether immigrants
are assimilating into U.S. culture.

------
quote Akagi come to call her names with bad Englsih and spelling:

Akagi writes: 12:33 PM
Assimilation
Immigrants do assimilate. ...-if I dropped ole dig bat into Tainan County, how fast do you think she'd learn Mandarin or Taiwanese
-----

And silly lily says
-----

lilly writes: 7 1:07 AM
To talent scout
Your 7:46 post is quoted here verbatim:
----

Not even close lilly

You see what you want to see lilly
lilly writes: 1:07 AM
To talent scout
Your 7:46 post is quoted here verbatim: "Akagi had any sense he would compare apples to apples. Instead he writes slander to his betters."
------
ts:
No lilly, you took a small part of that post, and seek to see all evil in the world cause I said 'betters'.
And mean it too.
------
lilly writes:

I will say little about your several errors of English construction, usage, and punctuation except to point out that you made them (while defending the English language against all foreign invaders).
------
ts:
As I said lilly, you see what you want to see is all.
The bad English & spelling, (not that it matters) came from Akagi as I quoted him with a copy and paste.

Have you ever thought about asking a person what they have in mind before you leap off into a wild eyed accusation like this at me?

You see what you want to see as you LOVE to see evil with Americans of the conservative mind set.
You absolutely LOVE IT!
I know how you are lilly, not healing for ya, so we just leave you to see what you love to see in your fellow Americans, and never see any evil but in them, smile.

Phyllis Schlafly is Akagi's better
Much better too





Let us focus instead on your racism in referring to Akagi's "betters". Can you explain why you chose to use that word?

To talent scout
Your 7:46 post is quoted here verbatim: "Akagi had any sense he would compare apples to apples. Instead he writes slander to his betters."

I will say little about your several errors of English construction, usage, and punctuation except to point out that you made them (while defending the English language against all foreign invaders). Let us focus instead on your racism in referring to Akagi's "betters". Can you explain why you chose to use that word?

Wildwest
How do you know that America (I think you mean the United States) is the most advanced country in the world? We don't have the best-educated kids. We don't have the best health care system. We don't have the best figures for infant mortality. We don't have the best social services. We don't have the best public transportation. We don't have the tallest building. We don't have the fanciest shopping mall. We don't have the fastest cars. We used to be the gold standard in medical research, but thanks to conservative priorities, this is no longer true. Our currency is dropping like a rock. We can't even pay our national bills and have gone deeply in debt to a few of those countries you think aren't as advanced as we are. So on what do your base your statement?

Yes lilly, his betters
lilly writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 12:27 AM
Talent Scout
Well, well, what have we here? "Akagi writes slander toward his betters". His what? His betters? On what basis are we deciding that somebody else is BETTERS and Akagi is inferior? From his posts he appears to be Asian and to speak at least one Asian language. And, my God, but Akagi is uppity, daring to criticize his BETTERS (your inference is, this Asian is criticizing Anglos). Or maybe we are in Victorian England, where the lower classes aren't meant to get ideas above their station? Or possibly we are in India during the Raj, bearing the White Man's Burden? Your post comes across as 100% racist. Or maybe you would care to explain what you mean by Akagi's "BETTERS"
-------


I put in my post exactly what I meant and why.
Only you see all this bs in it

To Akagi
My experience says that your instincts are on target. I am an American of Anglo heritage with ancestors on this soil since the 1630's, and I speak Spanish. As a child I lived abroad because my father's work took us there: I learned Spanish. Some anecdotes: 1) When I returned to the States to go to college I was met at the ship by an aunt. She heard me speaking Spanish with fellow travelers as we said goodbye, then she took me aside and warned me, "Don't ever let anyone hear you speak Spanish because they might think you are Mexican." 2) I take every opportunity to speak Spanish now, to keep it up. When overheard chatting in Spanish with a building employee, I have several times been offered employment as a cleaning lady by a fellow resident who did not know me. 3) When speaking Spanish with the Mexican woman who was cutting my hair, I was reprimanded by the salon manager who told me no Spanish is allowed there (this rule was later successfully challenged in court). 4) An Argentine friend and I were speaking Spanish on the bus. She has been in the States (legally) over fifteen years, and is a retired physician and the mother of two more physicians, all practicing in the States. The woman in the next seat told us to speak English or go back to our country.

This xenophobic attitude has nothing to do with protecting our borders. It is all about exerting social control. It is also about being a provincial yahoo.

lilly
I agree with you. When I first moved to Los Angeles I had no friends and no family here. My first year was tough, and having to work through the holidays I couldn't make it home (or even afford it then)...

My Hispanic neighbors saw me on Christmas walking my dog and invited me over for tamales that evening.

I was so touched being part of their family that evening, the generosity and warmth they shared with me was amazing.

Grandma didn't speak English, but she smiled and filled my plate with food. Auntie taught me how to make the red sauce, and the guys were quick not to let my hand be empty of a cold Corona.

Two years ago in Pittsburgh, I was having Christmas with my own family and they insisted on wanting tamales as well! It's now a little tradition of our own, and my boyfriend (originally from Mexico) thinks it's hilarious.

That's why I love the USA. You can explore so many cultures and traditions without even leaving the states. I love it here.

PS. My boyfriend has his own favorite he picked up from my side of the family. He makes his own Pirogies (my Aunt Linda's recipe)!

Pride goes forth on horse...
Honestly cut and paste any of your postings in MS Word and I bet at least 75% will have some form of grammatical, syntax or spelling errors! Cut and mail the postings to Oxford, 90% will get a response “Please write to us in English”! lol that is the sad state of English fluency and expertise here in our country. Why don’t we fix that first before asking the immigrants to speak English!

Even if we want them to lean English, “which” English you advocate to them?

This one? "Yo G, you frontin me?"
Which means "Excuse me, my peer, are you attempting to influence me to engage in a violent action with you?"

Or this one? "You gots to git those Benjamins so you cin git dat bling-bling fo yo ride"
Which I think it means: "You need to get money so that you can get expensive accessories for your car."

How about this one? “Plim-plizzle, my nizzle, don' foget bouts tha six-fo, chuch, dawg up in da hood, chilly my grilly. fo sho.”

I don’t what that above clause (or phrase, who knows what) means but I think it would sound better than most of the postings (and your arrogant unchristian heart) here! lol

Pride goes forth on horse, comes back walking & begging!

Talent Scout
Well, well, what have we here? "Akagi writes slander toward his betters". His what? His betters? On what basis are we deciding that somebody else is BETTERS and Akagi is inferior? From his posts he appears to be Asian and to speak at least one Asian language. And, my God, but Akagi is uppity, daring to criticize his BETTERS (your inference is, this Asian is criticizing Anglos). Or maybe we are in Victorian England, where the lower classes aren't meant to get ideas above their station? Or possibly we are in India during the Raj, bearing the White Man's Burden? Your post comes across as 100% racist. Or maybe you would care to explain what you mean by Akagi's "BETTERS".

Matt
You can't have it both ways. You conservatives believe that "Market is Never Wrong" and that "Business Rules". Well, business wants the business of people who don't speak English. Why not just let the free market have this one?

And aren't you being kind of petty to object to hitting one word on the touch-screen of an ATM or pressing one key on your telephone? This can't about the time it takes you, and it isn't really about language: what you want is confirmation that English speakers are "superior", to borrow a word from other posters.

Do you happen to be fluent in any language other than English?

Define "Superior"
A couple of posts tonight have, again, said that the culture of the United States is "superior" and "that is why they come here". Don't you think there might be a difference between "a country where you can make more money than you can at home" and "superior culture"? Many immigrants come here with a stronger orientation and commitment to family, and a much more fierce work ethic, than we see in a lot of Americans. The very things that conservatives love to hate---sexy clothes on children, putting two year-olds in preschool, leaving kids alone so Mom can go to the gym, having abortions, never going to church---these are not usually a part of Mexican culture, but they are often a part of the US culture. And the immigrants I talk to (Mexican, Guatemalan, Colombian, Croatian, Polish) absolutely do NOT want their children joining up with certain aspects of US culture. Their teenagers sometimes fight with the parents about this.

I see Hispanic families going on Sunday picnics at the beach or in the park; they take everybody, including the old grandma who has to be carried from the car and set up with chairs and a sunshade etc. I don't see Anglo families doing this. So, think about what "superior culture" means. Does it mean having three cars, five bathrooms, and a $4000 TV set? Or does it mean something a little deeper?

Spanish lanuage deferences
I agree wholeheartedly with Mrs. Schlafly on this issue of the selection of English or Spanish on just about every commercial computer screen, especially in banks and Super Markets. I try to not choose a language by proceeding as if it wasn't there, but some screens won't let you complete a transaction without choosing English or Spanish. Super Markets can be bypassed by just scanning your discount card directly thereby ignoring the selection of a language. But Banks are unyielding. You must select a language to proceed and finish a transaction.
If it was possible to outlaw this practice by making English the only language permitted for commercial transactions, I would definitely support it.
Spanish-speaking immigrants should not be coddled because commercial businesses want their bucks. It appears that many businesses are greedy at the expense of having immigrants who are gradually becoming more American rather than staying an ethnic minority within the general population. Immigrants should be learning the language so that they become Americans just as other ethnic groups did as part of the process of assimilation. No other ethic group had a choice in languages and beside, the general population should not have to choose a language just to make a transaction.
I have never seen any type of survey by a business as to whether I, as a customer, would prefer to have to choose a language prior to making a transaction. I guess they think I agree with their money-grubbing practice or that I'm in agreement with the politically correct weanies who continue to support these practices.

Regards,

Matt

Went to Laredo, Texas
over Thanksgiving. Went to several mainstream eating establishments and the employees could not speak English. As a matter of fact, Spanish is a pre-requisite is you want to get a job. Of course, crime and drugs are rampant as well. This is what is moving our way and it isn't pretty.

Why Are You Here?????!!!!
This is something each of these 'illegals' need to ask themeselves first and foremost. If you're country was so great, then why did you leave it to come here to only try and make it like the country you had left behind?
One can leave their home country, come here LEGALLY and be welcomed, assimulate to the United States culture, and honor one's own heritage. My wife is one such person as are all of her friends who came here from 'a country in Asia', got their citizenship legally, but continue to perform 'cultural' dances from their birth home to audiences in schools, businesses, and nursing homes. Illegal is illegal, there is no gray area there. Honor the laws of the United States or things will only get worse as this crisis starts coming to minds of 'the average' American.

English and Food Service
On Saturdays I work a day bartending shift at a resturant on a city owned golf course. The resturant owners pay very little so we have high staff turnover. Last Saturday, despite the computer slip that printed at the Chef's station saying 'Chicken Wrap' the chef, spamish speaking, knows very little english made 'Chicken Wings', when he showed me the slip it was obivous that he only saw the 'w' and made wings. It was left to me top expalin the well spoken gentleman (who happened to be Japanense (sp?)) that one of their dishes would be delayed because the chef could not read english. Which was okay with them when I mentioned that there would not be any charge for the free wings. So we have a cooks inability to understand english making for a poor dining experience for the cutomer, a loss to the resturant due to giving away the wings free and embarsement on my part. These customers are regulars so they are used to the poor service. Actually it really comes down to the resturant owner being addicted to banguets to the exclusion of a regluar cliental.


Re: Illegals
A guy whose father owns an apple orchard told me that the Mexicans are eager to have a job, any job. The "white guys," he said, don't want to do any of the hard work, they just want to drive the trucks....think the picking and any of the hard work is beneath them. I do think that we have a real problem when it comes to thinking we can fill the void so easily with "Legals." Appears that we will, in fact, have to allow for processed workers on some kind of temporary workers' permit. Most of our politicians just talk out of both sides of their mouths about getting the present mess straightened around. Appears as if there won't be much help from Huckabee, if he is elected.

Re: Illegals
A guy whose father owns an apple orchard told me that the Mexicans are eager to have a job, any job. The "white guys," he said, don't want to do any of the hard work, they just want to drive the trucks....think the picking and any of the hard work is beneath them. I do think that we have a real problem when it comes to thinking we can fill the void so easily with "Legals." Appears that we will, in fact, have to allow for processed workers on some kind of temporary workers' permit. Most of our politicians just talk out of both sides of their mouths about getting the present mess straightened around. Appears as if there won't be much help from Huckabee, if he is elected.

Language & Immigration
First of all, this thread had gotten twisted.

English as our common and official language is a good thing. The quicker LEGAL immigrants learn to speak proper English, the faster they will have the opportunity to truly pursue the American dream.

By the way, marxbrothers has it 100% right. Not all cultures are created equal. American culture is superior and that is not denigrating anyone else so don't take it there.

The second issue in this article is legal versus illegal immigration. I am for legal immigration. I believe we need to break the economic incentives for people to be here illegally in combination with real border and enforcement of immigration laws. Once the money is gone, the illegals will self deport.

We have not even talked about voter fraud and how many illegals can vote in the US.




Former liberal (sort of)
I used to think myself a liberal when it came to immigration issues; my position has not changed, but liberals sure did.

The old idea hardworking, ambitious people who bravely left everything behind to make a new life in America, The Land of Opportunity is objectionable to liberals. It characterizes America as being superior to the immigrant's homeland, which flies in the face of cultural relativism.

I believe that the American culture IS better than Mexican, Arab, and Chinese cultures, and want immigrants who believe the same. We have a real economy, don't mutilate our daughters, and allow people to have as many children as they see fit. We also allow crazy things like freedom of religion, association, and expression. I believe that this is why so many immigrants vote with their feet for America, and we don't need liberals discouraging their integration into our great society (not a reference to LBJ).

This is the government...
...that the majority of voters want. The majority of voters want the confusion and general decay of our culture.

Politicians are voted in by those who believe the former will represent their values and beliefs. Do any of you vote for those who will simply enforce and follow the laws of the country, or vote for those bend the rules for some who just want to sponge off taxpayers or remake the country for their convenience?

There shouldn't be a problem with demanding new citizens learn the language and rules of their new country, but there obviously is. Then again, a majority has spoken.

and now for my complaint...
Whose brilliant idea was it for the Univision debate?

This is pandering of the worst sort.

Congratulations Republican candidates, you have just made total fools of yourselves with a group of long time solid conservative Hispanics.

News flash: they do not want illegals either.

If you feel the need to suck up to a large illegal population do it in Creole.

AKAGI writes
"I mean there are plnety of Chinese medicine shops around and how many of you lao wai want to go inside and get some of that medicine which can best be described as something akin to what Appalachian root doctor would give you?"

I used those shops instead of traditional medicsl providers for over 20 years.

Worked every time! I downed some really gawdawful tasting stuff,but my "don't ask, please don't tell me" policy cured me of some minor and some fairly major problems.

If you know of any such shops in South Floriduh, pleas,please let me know!

Assimilation versus none
I have read the entire thread. I believe the issue boils down to whether people WISH to assimilate into the United States of America or not. Those who genuinely want to assimilate, to live in America and be a contributing part of this country, manifest the effort. They come the legal way. They try to learn the language as best they can. They wait it out and apply for citizenship. And, they don't cause all the illegal problems that so many current illegal aliens are causing (such as those described by Wildwest in Phoenix). They behave themselves as much as possible, whenever possible. They may not succeed at everything; they may not do all of these things well or completely -- but they TRY, and their efforts ARE obvious.

I know 3 people who are awaiting their chances to apply for citizenship -- and they all STRIVE to behave like model U.S. citizens.

Those who don't want to assimilate do what illegal aliens coming over the Mexican border do: They sneak over, they disregard laws, they shun the American language, they suck up American services, often they commit crimes, then they want to take their American earnings back to Mexico. And they make no effort to respect American laws or to fit in.

This issue is FAR more extensive than "English as the official language." This issue is "stanch the invasion of illegals." There are plenty of people today, right now, who would be thrilled with U.S. citizenship. Why in heaven's name should this country clown around even paying attention to these low-life illegals. Dry up the jobs and they will leave of their own accord.

If old dingbat
Akagi had any sense he would compare apples to apples.
Instead he writes slander toward his betters.

-----------


Akagi writes: 12:33 PM
Assimilation
Immigrants do assimilate. ...-if I dropped ole dig bat into Tainan County, how fast do you think she'd learn Mandarin or Taiwanese?
------
Read what she said dingbat

quote:
"Are you tired of anonymous voices on the phone telling you to "Press 1 (or sometimes 2) for English"? The ability to speak and communicate in English is the litmus test of whether immigrants are assimilating into U.S. culture."
-----
No other nation in the world demands their own citizens beg to speak their native tongue.
Just this twisted nation by allowing idiots like you in here.


The Largest Economies
So China and India will have the largest economies and of course largest must be the best -- right? Of course that largeness is mostly a function of insanely high demograpics. Is that what we want? If these countries want merely to be the largest because of exploding populations then let them "achieve" this distinction. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

It's pretty scary when you have people in this country (Akagi) looking to China and India as a model to be copied -- populations in the hundreds of millions in desperately poor conditions living and speaking in their own tribal ways. This is where America is heading with our insane immigration system.

grandpa never learned english
The ability to speak and communicate in English is the litmus test of whether second generation immigrants are assimilating into U.S. culture. First generation immigrants have always and will always failthis test, they come here like my grandfather did, not to assimilate themselves, but to provide a future their children.

My house
A mixture of English and Mandarin mostly with some Taiwanese mixed in.

I don't think people demand it so much as business know where money is thus Chinese banks and dual signage at HomeDepot. If there is money for Chinese language radio, there will be Chinese language radio.

And yes, you should accomodate them because it makes good business sense--same reasons hotels in Taipei have staff that can speak Japanese or English (well the upscale ones anyway--if you room in a two floor hotel above a KTV someplace, expect it to be a Chinese/Taiwanese only speaking staff).


Shanghai
The tallest building on earth was in Taipei (which I have been to the top) known as Taipei 101, it will no longer be though.

Shanghai does have more than NYC, but many also sit without tenants as the Chinese build in many cases for the sake of building and not because people really need them. Not unlike condo and other developers in the Atlanta area. There is a 40 month supply of lots but they are still clearing land left and right.

And learning Chinese would be good.


IMMIGRATION
Where a few legal immigrants at a time are admitted from specific destinations, they are obliged by circumstance to associate with, and therefore assimilate with, the wider community.

Where vast amounts of immigrants, both legal and illegal, arrive, the assimilative mechanisms of the community are swamped. This means immigrants have no incentive to assimilate, forming instead outposts of foreign culture that stubbornly and intractibly resist assimilation for as long as possible.

This is in line with the leftist doctrine of multiculturalism. Leftists are not nationalists, but internationalists. Their agenda is to undermine national consensus by according each import culture a co-equal place in the public square. Instead of seeing themselves as Americans, immigrants are encouraged to regard themselves as "Mexicans who happen to live in America," "Moslems who happen to live in America" etc.

If nobody can agree on a common national identity or set of governing ideas, who will fight to defend them when commie subversives both in the UN and within the USA trash the nation state and usher in international socialism on its corpse?

akagi
using foreign examples brings nothing to the discussion. Our heritage is based on people speaking and doing business in english. This bi-lingualism is relatively new to our system. My family comes from hungary. They never insisted the community they moved into stop speaking english to accomodate them. Instead they took english classes to learn the language and never spoke anything but english around our house. In schools everyone spoke english without exception. Yoiu fail to bring a coherent argument that we should be making adjustments to accomodate foreigners or why it is our interest to do so. India also had a tribal history that is not within our experience. Accomodating existing laguages is one thing, accomodating an intrusive language is something else again. You need a better argument

Not the Same Thing
Please note that two points 1) secure national borders and 2) languages other than English have, once again, been lumped together on townhall. Saying that you don't want undocumented dark-skinned strangers sneaking into the country is NOT the same as saying that the sound of the Spanish language makes you sick.

The first point makes sense. To a far-off Anglo eye, a Mexican seeking work and a Syrian seeking an airplane might look alike, and none of us wants terrorists entering our country undetected. The second point is stupid. Really, really stupid. I spent much of my youth in a place where most people spoke four or five languages and everybody spoke two. The American attitude toward foreign language very often is one of announcing superiority. We hear it in the States ("let them speak English here") but we also hear it when Americans travel abroad ("that waiter can understand English perfectly well---he is just giving me a hard time" or "if they want my money, let them learn English". Americans often want to be acknowledged as the biggest, best, richest, most powerful---and they expect everyone in the world to defer to them in language.

I read the other day that Shanghai has twice as many skyscrapers as New York, and I saw in the paper yesterday that the tallest building on earth is going up in Dubai...maybe we should all be learning Chinese or Arabic.

Language
Wildwest:

Okay India then that is smaller than the US has 3 times the population and 15 official languages. or China, about the same size as the US and has hundreds and hundreds of what most would call languages but China calls dialects, but they are so distinct most can't be understood by a non-speaker of that dialect.

In Taiwanese, saying I don't want something is "bo ai" in standard Chinese it is "bu yao."

Neither country seems to be falling apart at the moment--two countries predicted to have the largest economies on earth by the middle of this century (2050 or so).


lilly
again you continue to parade your stupidity. Switzerland is smaller than just about every one of our states. They could in no way absorb thousands of illegals. But america is the most advanced country in the world. Exactly how can we absorb millions who can't comprehend or speak english. When did american taxpayers vote to give illegals the right to steal our social services. Why must we pay increased amounts for insurance and taxes only to fund those who have already broken our laws to get here. It's bad enough we are already paying for the millions of citizens born here who refuse to pull their own weight. Why are we funding another group of an underclass who might, that is might assimilate in two or three future generations. As for me I can cut my own grass and paint my own house without resorting to the lure of hiring illegals who will gladly work for $3.00 an hour

You don't want my money
I've never seen a place of business that didn't have some English on it in the US in any event--but his claim is that there is none so he has no idea what kind of store it is. My response would be well 1) I doubt you'd spend money there even if it did have English 2) The store is obviously not marketed to you, so why should you care.

I mean there are plnety of Chinese medicine shops around and how many of you lao wai want to go inside and get some of that medicine which can best be described as something akin to what Appalachian root doctor would give you?




akagi
your arguments are contrary to what other economists have alledged concerning the problems of the illegals facing this country. Statistics can be read in any number of ways but the notion that we can easily absorb the millions of illegals doesn't pass the smell test. When estimatyes of illegals range from 10 million to 45 million I don't thnk anyone fully understands the problem and it's long term effects. Nafta did not create the basic problem of how poorly the mexican economy truly is. But it appears that many of those countries exporting their illegals is getting rid of their problems and dumping them on our shores. We can probably absorb a certain number of those entering legally. It has not been fully explained how our economy can easily absorb millions of poorly educated illegals. We have many problems with the illegals here in phoenix and confrontations are becoming more frequent. It is almost impossible to pass any home improvemnt store or old shooping center where dozens of hipanics are lined up in numbers looking for any employment which is paid in cash which also avoids any contributions to the tax system which is underwriting the services being used by the illegals. Overcrowding at the public schools and use of medical services without paying any costs is also a huge drain on the local economies. Arizona has passed some legislation that puts severe penalties on employers who use illegals but that is still being contested in the legal system. There is no easy answer but our laws must be enforced and these illegals have to understand there are consequences to breaking our laws and they really have no right to help themselves to the services american taxpayers are funding. Assimilation 2-3 generations is not a viable solution to this illegal immigrant problem which I don't find the least comforting.

Johninoregon
We MUST have a common language for political discourse and commerce? Why MUST we? This subject comes up all the time. Find a Swiss and tell him what you just posted. He will tell you that Switzerland, a nation infinitely more civilized than ours, has three official languages and that civil servants must be able to read, write, and speak at least two of them because official papers are multi-lingual. It's assumed that an educated person will be multilingual, in fact that's pretty much true across Europe.

Or just take a run up to Quebec, where signage must be both in English and French. So what? Reading signs in both language is a great way to learn new words.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks on townhall don't get around much.

Agaki:
Assimilation occurs at a slow rate, but only if the majority speaks only English. Flooding the country will millions of spanish only speaking illegal immigrants who are mostly illiterate and poorly skilled or educated (otherwise they could make a decent living even in Mexico) and accomdating them in their native languages removed the incentive to assimilate into an American culture. The waves of Poles and Germans into our largest cities may have allowed them to have a German only or Polish newspaper, but at the time, Chicago had 3 major English only papers, all of whom had circulations that dwarfed the foreign print daily's.

There were one, perhaps two at most, foreign language radio stations, many which only operated until dark when they had to sign off to allow the big AM stations clear channels.

Today, in CHicago, their are almost as many spanish radio stations (AM) as english, and they own about a third of the FM band as well. The same for local television boradcasting, where they are now 25% of the channels, and the majors all broadcast the most popular shows with SAP spanish translations. Again, we are removing any need to learn the language, let alone learn it well.

Interestingly, Telemundo the spanish version of AMC, broadcasts spanish dubbed blockbuster movies in spanish, but when I try to use the SAP button to hear the english (original) language of the movie, I still hear only spanish. Why is that?

A couple of things
"but we MUST have a common language for education, commerce, political discourse, etc"

So someone shouldn't be allowed to conduct commerece in another language. I was wrong by the way--the languages on my ATM are--English, Spanish, Chinese (traditional Hanzi) and Russian.

Also Tampa Dave, seen pictures of Chinatown, SF or NY--those same type of signs have been there since the mid-to late 19th century. Guess they didn't assimilate either. Seems most ABCs I know can speak English fluently.

Tampa Dave
Since I doubt you'd shop there anyway even if there were English on the signs, please send us a link for these alleged "Korean Only signs" since most places require at least the name to be in English for emergency services to find them. In my experience in Chinese is that the Chinese and English rarely agree. In Chinese it'll say like Cheng Du or something and in English it'll say "Happy China."

Plan to buy Kim Chee in the near future or something?

Tampa Dave
By refusing to spend money in immigrant businesses you are hurting your own cause of assimilation. Those folks want the money to move from urban ethnic enclaves into nice suburban homes: this is their dearest wish. They want their kids in good suburban schools. They want to send them to college and then for the MBA, the JD, the MD, the DDS.

Meanwhile, you deny yourself the delights of ethnic restaurants, grocery stores, bakeries, shopping malls.


Speaka da good English
Here is a rare instance where I can come part way with conservatives. Certainly people have every right to speak their native language with family and friends, but we MUST have a common language for education, commerce, political discourse, etc.

Unfortunately, there are many people born and raised in this country who have never learned to speak grammatically or enunciate clearly. Such people should not be placed before the public or in a call center before undergoing some English "boot camp" training. ("Pick up that "R" you just dropped and put it back where it belongs!")

NAFTA
Wildwest:

I have no problems against the US enforcing its immigration laws as does every country on earth.

Hispanic dropout rate is actually 24%. One reason this is so high is because many of these never attended school in the US at all. Since 1972, the rate of Hispanic dropout has fallen 10%, so that undermines your claim of them not assimilating. If you adjusted it for just American-born Hispanics, the numbers would be even lower. And this article wasn't against just illegals, but the claim that immigrants--legal and illegal don't assimilate and that simply is untrue, but PS has been saying a number of things that are untrue for years so why should I be suprised.

And yes, syler, NAFTA basically destroyed the peasant economy in Mexico and has been one of the great agents for illegal immigration into the US from Mexico. But NAFTA has enriched many Mexican elites as well--NAFTA hurt the same groups on both sides of the border--the poor.

English on the Job?
Half an hour ago I walked past a crew of city workers re-surfacing a street. Guys were running a big truck that spews out blacktop while other guys spread the blacktop out with shovels and another guy was running a rolling machine. As they worked they were shouting back and forth to each other. All of the shouting was in Spanish. The men looked Hispanic. Does somebody seriously propose that these men should be required to speak English only on the job? How is that going to be enforced? This is going to be legislated? With muggers, burglars, murderers, rapists, and child molesters running around, not to mention Corporate America's swindlers and embezzlers, don't we have more urgent priorities?

Assimilation
Korean shops in several plazas in Fairfax County, Virginia, have their business signs and advertisements in Korean only. No English subtitles at all. My reaction? I don't want to spend 10 cents in a single shop like that. They obviously do not want my money through their refusal to offer an English translation. In the Washington, DC, metropolitan area, the state of assimilation by current immigrants is dismal, at best. Call this area "Mosaic America", not "The Melting Pot".

Akagi, you're 100% correct
My wife is a 3rd gen American, from Mexico. Her grandparents spoke no english. Her parents speak very good english and spanish. My wife speaks perfect english and almost no spanish.

Overtime, people assimilate. Period.

The real issue here is not assimilation, but how the US's foreign policies have not allowed less-developed countries to prosper. NAFTA, CAFTA, IMF, etc have done good things for the US economy, but have caused more harm for other countries.

akagi
the argument is against illegals not tyhose who have immigrateed illegally. My pasrents escaped hitler and got intyo america due to being sponsored by another relative already here. But they entered legally, took classes, learned english and took the oath of citizenship. This notion that illegals are somehow entitled defies all understanding. But if these illegals refuse to assimilate and learn the basics of language why do we continue to accomodate them. The fact that the average illegal from south of the border has less than a 7tyh grade education and lacks the ability to use the most basic of english indicates they are not here to join our great society and way of life. We simply do not need any more who are essentially parasites leaching off our systyem. Statistics indicate that hispanics havce excess of a 50% high school drop out rate which tells that the second generation is doing no better at assimilating than the parents. Giving illegals any prteferential treatment is an insult to all who have entered illegally. Exactly what debt is owed to illegals who have already briken our laws toi enter and contin ue to violate our system by remaining. Why must lawful american citizens pay increased medical costs, car insurance and taxes to pay for the benefits that the illegals are essentially stealing from the rest of us. Living in the sw we see daily damage to our society. Exactly how do these huge numbers of poorly educated illegals benefit our society. How will you justify to future generations that the huge costs of allowing millions of illegals who cost society far more than they contribute when our children and grandchildren suffer because of the free ride the illegals are getting

Ethnocentric
"The ROman empire fell because it tolerated too much that was not Roman both internally (gay sex, hedonism, bestiality,) and externally by hiring merceneries to do their fighting who revolted when they didn't get paid."

Actually the Romans at their height was a pretty multicultural place. Chang An was a very cosmopolitian place as the Tang Capital--a time when China was at the height of its power.

The reason for Rome's fall has been blamed on many things--there are probably as many reasons for its fall as there are people from lead in the pipes to Chinese pushing barbaric tribes westward. And as they say, univarate analysis is the hallmarks of a neophyte scholar. And Yes, the US didn't get the bomb until July 1945 and Hilter's regime fell in May, but his anti-Jewish policies hurt his war effort on two fronts--driving people out who could have helped the regime--especially those in the sciences and the resources used to carry out the extermination program could have been better used to kill Russians and Americans. Not sure how the timing of the bomb undermines his point really, would you not argue that if the Jews has worked for the regime, it would not have been helped and driving them out hurt the regime?


For Flagwaver @ 00:25
You wrote: "It's mighty funny to me that the language of air travel, spoken by every pilot of every nation that flies internationally is English".

In the 1980's, this was also not recognised at one international airport in North America--MIRABEL, where there was insistence on pilots asking instructions in French (which wasn't/isn't even practiced at CDG airport in Paris). Of course, this led to a decline from already-low traffic to that airport--and eventually to its shutting down (after foisting a large bill on Western Canada and Ontario).

I know the difference
The largest immigrant group in the US are the Germans. I didn't know German was a version of English (although it shares the same language family). Why should you care what government form is used, if you complain about the cost, charge a language surcharge then. If the BFOQ requires an employee to know another language, then he should know another language.

Care to tell me where Spanish is the official language in the US outside of Puerto Rico?

Oh and as I have said before, the term Third World is about as valid in 2007 as the term Ottoman Empire. Since the Second World imploded in 1991. The term now would be LDC or LEDC for Less Developed Country or Less Economically Developed Country or taken as a whole the Developing World. Mexico even using the old terms of Third World would not be considered a part of it but a NIC--Newly Industralized Country not unlike Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong in the 1970s. Some other NICS include China, Malaysia, the Philippines, South Africa, Brazil, etc.

sorry pandm
Ther is a portion of the US that these people believe should go back to Mexico. In fact there is both a map and a video tape showing that. I have one of the tapes.
___________________________________________

Ok, I figured out what you meant after reading this again. Sorry about that.

ca
Sorry, i only know english!

Immigration
Sammy:

There were also contacts to the homeland in the 19th century as well--a number of major German newspapers, etc. Election campaigns in these towns were in German, I don't doubt there were even ballots in German.

"China should be a better place to live than Monaco or Switzerland since they have higher rates of growth and a higher GDP -- right?"

When did I make this claim or are you against growth? And who knows in 70 years China may be a better place to live than the US, better brush up on your Mandarin, Tong Zhi.

"Except they still consume more than they take. No one doubts that they contribute something but this of course must be balanced by what they take."

This is unclear actually. If you read real studies and not those put out by pressure groups like CIS (who is being burned at the stake by professional demographers over the most recent so-called study). Some studies show a net gain and others a net loss. And as for social services, immigrants actually use far less that the native born.

And CA, he was talking about groups said to be in the US that want the Southwest to be returned to Mexico. I am sure there are and I am sure they are and I am sure they also have about as much popular support as the LOS does in say Atlanta.

CHECK OUT TANCREDO'S VIDEO ON DEBATE
Assimilation is a big problem. Check out Tom Tancredo's video about last night's debate. It's funny and scary. Kind of a spoof of the Univision debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5GUCQAdlxg

Uber's rewriting history again...
"Empires who chose ethnocentrism at their own peril."

The ROman empire fell because it tolerated too much that was not Roman both internally (gay sex, hedonism, bestiality,) and externally by hiring merceneries to do their fighting who revolted when they didn't get paid.

Then you claim "tolerance is an economic and cultural engine." Universal tolerance is the hallmark of a society that stands for nothing.

"If Germany had been tolerant of Jews, they may well have won the war. But their intolerance sent the worlds best minds fleeing to America"

Those best minds may have created the atomic bomb, but Hitler fell before the US had one.

1 or 2 is not the question
Akagi you seem to be more a part of the problem than part of the solution. You apparently don't know the difference between an immigrant and a illegal Mexican. The 1 or 2 business is peanuts compared to the multiple governmental forms printed in more languages than English, government employee positions that require multiple languages, schools taught in Spanish as the first language. But most of all having more than English as the official language contributes to the Balkanization of America. Your ideas about the history of immigration in America is mostly based on the myth we are a nation of immigrants. We might be a nation of immigrants but 90% of us just moved from Europe to America, spoke a common version of English and are not from south of the border, first as civil offenders, then as thieves of personal identity or forged documents and as felony criminals(both amnesty bills forgave 32 felon crimes so these wonderful people could step out of the shadows). The world's language is English not some third world version of 1 or 2.

Spanish
Many Illegals are mostly peasants with little formal education and are barely literate in Spanish let along English. But, their children do learn English--yes, in their communities, they can get by with knowing no English, just as an American in Taipei can get along without knowing Chinese. As for schools, it is not ESL you mean but bilingualism.

ESL you learn in English, in bilingualism, you learn in your native language mostly and learn a little English along the way. I think bilingualism is a bad idea.

Go and find a high school student that has been living in the US for 10+ years and see if they don't have a good command of English--you won't find one.

Also some immigrants do in fact go back. I know a couple from Taipei that once their children have left college, will return back.

And pandm there is a group in the South that wants the South to leave the Union again known as the League of the South--which the Southern Poverty Law Center has labeled a neo-Confederate hate group, if I see someone with a Confederate flag, should I be worried? Meaning do all Mexicans in the US--legal or not want the southwest back in Mexico? I'd like to see some polling data on that question.

and pandm, I'm an illegal, sent by the PLA to undermine the US by spreading pro-immigration propaganda on conservative websites. You've found me out. Drats!


Akagi

I didn't mean to imply that the new immigrants didn't also feel a love for the US while still seeing the US as part of "them" instead of part of "we." What I meant is after years of social-cultural and political education, you don't just drop those bonds that easily.

--------------------------------

I knew what you meant, I just wanted to preemptively respond to the common idea that I see on TH that a person can only be patriotic to one country at a time (ie if you're an immigrant in America, you're allegiance better be only for America, not your homeland).

pandm
Ther is a portion of the US that these people believe should go back to Mexico. In fact there is both a map and a video tape showing that. I have one of the tapes.
It takes political power to obtain this.
I read a paper indicating that their headquarters are in Del Rio, Texas.
--------------------------------------------

I haven't the vaguest idea what you mean by the above quote.

To tolerate or not to tolerate
The question is not whether others should assimilate. Assimilation is an unavoidable consequence of contact with other cultures. The question is rather, will we tolerate difference and take advantage of diversity, or will we join the ranks of failed Empires who chose ethnocentrism at their own peril.

The facts are that tolerance is an economic and cultural engine.

If Germany had been tolerant of Jews, they may well have won the war. But their intolerance sent the worlds best minds fleeing to America

If we adopt the same policies, we will suffer the same type of brain drain.

Already conservative policy makers are advocating for unfolding education, if they also advocate for intolerance towards those educated in other nations, they will be responsible for the death of America as we have known it.

Idiotic Statements
Since we are examining idiotic statements today I thought I would add a few that I have seen...

"This is no different from the way it was in the 1920s, the 1880s, the 1840s and before that." Yeah, absolutely nothing is different or has changed since these times.

Let's ignore the welfare state, ethnic identity politics, mass media that extends the umbilical chord to the homeland, bilingual ballots, bilingual education, Press 2 for Spanish, immigration rights attorneys, etc. etc. Yeah everything is absolutely the same as it was during the last waves of mass immigration.


"The US economy will continue to grow far into the next century and much of this growth cas be attributed to new immigrants."

I don't doubt that this is true, but will this growth be reflective of the production of more starter homes, toilet paper, schools, clothes, or other consumables and commodities or will it be reflective of real per capita growth in new technologies and industries that improves the lives of citizens in real terms? So China should be a better place to live than Monaco or Switzerland since they have higher rates of growth and a higher GDP -- right?



"...you can think those immigrant workers whose payroll taxes are supporting your monthy check."

Except they still consume more than they take. No one doubts that they contribute something but this of course must be balanced by what they take. Check out Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation for the answer. Social Security'sproblems will not be solved by throwing a mass of humanity along the bottom rungs of the Social Secuirty Pyramid scheme.

Wei Ji Ni Ya Ai Guo Ren
Va. Patriot:

Curious, do you have these post saved someplace that you post over and over again or do you type them in by hand over and over again. Just curious.


Agaki has a point
Someone who leaves their country and journeys thousands of miles across a vast ocean to another shore (as apparently your parents did) has an inborn motivation to assimilate or to see their children do so. Your fluency in english is a testamonial to how quickly you have done so.

But for those living in Mexico, who come here illegally, and can live their entire lives in barios, shopping at Mexican supermercado's and send their kids to the public schools where they are placed in ESL (English as a second language) classes never need to learn English, nor have any incentive for their children to. This is especially the case where the border is just a few miles drive.

Those waves of immigrant from distant shores all assimilated much quicker because they didn't want to go back, nor could they afford to if they wanted.

Incidentally, most children of spanish-only speaking parents from south of the border have trouble passing Spanish in high school! They can speak it, but no one in their home is literate in Spanish, let alone English.

Akagi/ca
You either have your head in the sand or you are a part of the illegal group. I suspect the latter.
Ther is a portion of the US that these people believe should go back to Mexico. In fact there is both a map and a video tape showing that. I have one of the tapes.
It takes political power to obtain this.
I read a paper indicating that their headquarters are in Del Rio, Texas.
Lift your head out of the sand.

Poverty
Well unlike you, I have been through the process a few times. One of my favorite memories of INS was sitting in an INS waiting room (as it was called then) in a room label "customer service" and as with most government employees, they were slow. A customer--aka--immigrant--went and asked one of the officers a question or tried to--told he had to take a number and sit down, yelling at the poor man--yes, that's customer service alright.

So yes every legal immigrant has to either have those assets or someone inside the US that does to sponsor them. I am unsure when he brought his family over, but requirements became law as part of the 1996 Welfare reforms and part of the Contract with (on?) America. Before that sponsorship was just a moral obligation, in 1996, they became a legal one.

So go off and play on your fantasy NumbersUSA website and think you'll ever get the legal number back to 250,000.


Si se puede (yes we can)
What the illegal aliens chant at their marches

Si se puede (Yes We Can)
Yes we can:
Ignore your laws.
Enter your country any time we feel like it.
Collect benefits to which we are not entitled.
Tell you what your immigration policies should be.
File thousands of lawsuits to prevent you from enforcing your laws.
Vote in your elections fradulently.
Take your country.

Save Your Country

Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the laws. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

If the GOP thinks they can continue to import cheap labor for their donors at the expense of the citizens, they will. I will not vote for that again. If we continue to play the game of "the other guy is worse", we will lose our country. Sorry, but I will not participate in that game any longer. The GOP power brokers think we will vote for "anybody but a Democrat" so they can continue to ignore securing the borders and enforcing the laws. I'm hoping GOP primary voters give the party elites some surprises in the primaries. The levers of power and the money in the GOP are all in the hands of the cheap labor express. They do not want Duncan Hunter as the candidate. He WOULD enforce the laws and secure the border. WE have to make him the nominee by voting in the primaries. We have to talk to our friends and neighbors about him. He is not going to get media coverage. It's going to have to be a grass roots effort. I WANT to vote for a GOP candidate in Nov.'08, I WILL NOT vote for any of the amnesty supporters. If it takes crushing the GOP so a new party representing American citizens can arise, so be it.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Tokyo
Or the one in Tokyo for that matter, CA.

I didn't mean to imply that the new immigrants didn't also feel a love for the US while still seeing the US as part of "them" instead of part of "we." What I meant is after years of social-cultural and political education, you don't just drop those bonds that easily.

If Sammy here and the rest of the super patriots moved to Taiwan, how many would feel that Taiwan was their home and country over the US. If the US played Taiwan in the LLWS, would they cheer for Taiwan or the US team? If Taiwan played the US team in the World Baseball Cup (I think they call it that now since baseball is out of the Olympics now), would they cheer for Taiwan or the US team? Would they read Chinese or English language publications, watch Chinese language movies or American movies? Eat Hamburgers or mantou, suanlatang and chou doufu?

We know the answer to this already.




Akagi
Glad to see you're lifting up the level of discourse today Akagi with such examined proclamations of idiocy.

I am not an expert on legal immigration, but there are so many programs and exceptions that it is pure sophistry to try and say that all legal immigrants have to have resources 200% of poverty level. Do I need to pull out the Pablo Baltazar link again. Tell me how this amnestied illegal working the fields ever got to bring over hundreds of kin legally if your benchmarks were so absolute? He is far from alone as a real world example.

Where did I say that legal immigration should be cut by 95%? I only said that we could winnow down the pool of potential immigrants by 95% (and that's just some number I estimated out of thin air) by incorporating a strict set of filters that would effectively screen out those that offer us the least. Perhaps many of today's legal immigrants do have skills (I have no idea if that is true or not), but do they also slip past the other filters (English proficiency, Country of Origin, money, and others not named)? I don't know. I just think that our country should run a system that adds people in the same way that a business adds people. Is that idiotic? Tell me why?


Billions
One more thing...while on a theoretical basis, billions would want to come to the US, in real terms this isn't the case. You may ask a rural farmer in Hubei, do you want to live in the US...sure he'd answer, is he ever going to come to the US...no.

The US admits 1 million legal immigrants with a few million waiting to get visas and the wait can be decades long for some. Then you have 2-3 million illegals that enter each year.

Far from anything like a billion. Oh and Sammy, when you are both old and foolish instead of now when you are simply foolish, you can think those immigrant workers whose payroll taxes are supporting your monthy check.

The US economy will continue to grow far into the next century and much of this growth cas be attributed to new immigrants. See where Japan is in 70 years--I can tell you it won't be a good place. Rural Japan is already feeling the pain of the population crash.


Akagi
Thank you for this. I will only add that just because the first generation might still view their old country as their home, it doesn't mean they feel no love or patriotism for their new country and home:

While many illegals may never assimilate, their children will. Yes, first generation will no doubt always view their old country as their home and still use the pronouns of us, my country, we to describe it and use them, you, and your country to describe the US, but the second generation views the US as their country and the country of their parents as the country of their parents. This is no different from the way it was in the 1920s, the 1880s, the 1840s and before that.

wildwest
A recent trrip to disneyland was a real eye opener. The overwhelming conversations were in spanish. Standing in line waiting to order food had many occurances where an interpreter was necessary before the hispanic could be taken care of.
____________________________________________

A major U.S. tourist attraction somewhat near an international border with a Spanish speaking neighbor draws Spanish speaking customers? Shocking! I'm sure the French have never encountered Americans that held up the ticket line at Versailles because they only spoke English, just for one example.

Legal
Sammy you're an idiot.

The legal immigrants aren't desperately poor since you have to have a level of resources 200% of poverty or have a sponsor that has assets at that level. Also, the vast majority of legal immigrants aren't unskilled either.

What you are describing does cover by in large the illegal immigrants, but whose fault is that? Oh, that incompetent government that can't even issue passports on time that's who.

As for cutting US legal immigration by 95%--only in your drug induced dreams. Never going to happen.


Immigrants
Well since my house is full of immigrants and the off-spring of immigrants, as well as having a good deal of contact with the Taiwanese community here, that would be false.

Disneyland, also attracts a good number of tourists, no? I was in Tennessee the other day and there was a bunch of mainlanders--suprise--they spoke Mandarin and had to have an interpreter to help them (also known as tour guide).

So should everyone that goes to Disneyland be fluent in English, is that what you are saying?

While many illegals may never assimilate, their children will. Yes, first generation will no doubt always view their old country as their home and still use the pronouns of us, my country, we to describe it and use them, you, and your country to describe the US, but the second generation views the US as their country and the country of their parents as the country of their parents. This is no different from the way it was in the 1920s, the 1880s, the 1840s and before that.


Run It Like a Business
There are literally billions of people that would like to become permanent residents of our country. Despite Jorge and the liberals best efforts, it is impossible and suicidal to accomodate them all. Our current process takes almost no accord of the benefits that these potential immigrants would provide our country -- it's all about "fairness", and diversity, and family connections. Basically, our immigration system doesn't serve the needs of our country and is little more than a welfare program for the world's desperately poor and a pork project subsidizing businesses that employ unskilled labor.

With many more candidates then we could ever "hire" we should employ the same tactics as a company looking to fill some highly valued openings in the company. In other words place some filters on the resumes that have overwhelmed your office. Can't speak English -- into the reject pile! Islamic country of origin -- reject! No assets -- goodbye! No skills or education -- see you later! After you have filtered the application forms down to the best and the brightest then you finally get down to the nitty gritty of trying to figure out who to admit -- but with 95% of them already rejected it is much more manageable and practical.

This is the 21st century. We don't need massive numbers of unassimilated unskilled desperately poor immigrants. We solve the problem of assimilation by only taking in those that are essentially already assimilated and can contribute from the moment they arrive. Is this "fair"? I don't know but who really cares? Let's do what is best for our country for a change.

akagi
you sound like someone who has spent little or no time amongst immigrants some legal but most probably illegal. A recent trrip to disneyland was a real eye opener. The overwhelming conversations were in spanish. Standing in line waiting to order food had many occurances where an interpreter was necessary before the hispanic could be taken care of. But these pc types who continue to insist that these illegals will learn english and assimilate are living in some other dimension. If is reported that only 12% of those pardoned by reagan became citizens. The fact you have neglected to cover is that a common language is one of the areas that binds society. That those in the hispanic community freguently spew about the sw being stolen from them and how they have the right to reclaim the territory they stole from the native peoples is also disturbing. Here in phoenix there are frequent rallies defending the right of illegals to invade our shores and steal the social services they rest of us pay for. Assimilation requires identifying with the culture of the country you have adopted as their home. Hispanics have yet to prove they value anything more than their countries of origin and everything they try and force on the rest of us as though they have the right to maintain their"culture" and how we should adapt to accomodate them

It's the economy stupid
No, pressing one for English and 2 for Spanish is put forward by business who understand that their customers might not all understand or desire to conduct business in English--these are private actors making private decisions and has little to do with deviant progressives or George Bush.

Also, while there are exceptions, usually most automative phone systems be default go to English and say in Spanish if you rather hear this message in Spanish press 2. If you rather hear the message in Chinese, you are usually out of luck.


Deviant progressives
This policy of pressing 1 for english is one by deviant progressives to fracture our country. Yes, Bush is a deviant progressive in many asppects.

One more thing
How does being able to do my banking in Chinese keep me from fully taking part in American society. The ATMs at my bank are in English, Spanish, French, Chinese and what I think is Polish for some odd reason. Does it really harm my ability to function in the US to withdraw my money using Chinese rather than English?

Not at all
Even people who are fluent in English often prefer to do business and other activities in their native tongue. If you moved to say Taiwan and you have the option, would you conduct your business such as banking in Chinese or Taiwanese or English?

Banks such as Summitt have people that can speak Spanish, English, Taiwanese, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Korean, and Mandarin. It just makes good business sense. You go to a five star hotel in places like Taipei the staff can speak Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese and English. What's the problem? Again, making English official is basically a useless jesture put forward by xenophobes--who probably think incorrectly that once that happens they won't have to be seeing them dern ferners signs and hearing dem ferners speak dem damn ferner languages.

I had one poor soul tell me that he didn't like to hear people speak in other languages because they might be talking about him. He is though a total racist and yes...I am 100% accurate in this. He has told me that blacks should be all loaded into ships and towed out to sea and then sank.

Immigrants
But immigrants have always assimilated. It is a myth that that is no longer the case. Find me a second generation immigrant (a person born in the US of parents who were born elsewhere) that can't speak English, who doesn't watch MTV or American movies or eat at McDonalds and doesn't watch football, etc.

In the past there were plenty of immigrants who never assimilated or assimilated slowly just as it is the case today?

In the 19th century there were a number of local major German newspapers published in the US. Are there any of these left today? In the civil war you had German-speaking regiments who were given commands only in German on the battlefield...is this the case today? Chinatown in SF has existed since the 1850s, the one in Virginia City dated to the 1860s and the one in NYC to the 1880s.

PS's complaints are the same as the 1790s against the Germans, the 1840s against the Irish by the Know Nothings, the 1880s against the Chinese, and the 1920s by the Klan against the Italians and Jews.

Akagi - 1:00PM post
If nearly everybody in the country was functional in English, why would businesses choose to alienate potential customers who do not speak the fringe language? Your idea is flawed.

The idea behind encouraging English officially and unofficially is to move people as quickly as possible out of the fringe.

The unintended (hopefully unintended) consequence of making things easy for non-English speakers to keep them as fringe special interests and unable to fully take advantage of life in America.

Akagi
Those are some good points.

From my point of view, it is very important to encourage all new Americans to integrate so we continue to have a unified nation. Integration is usually not painless… a person who integrates into a country or organization must give up some old habits and practices while adopting new habits and practices. Before the age of diversity, society naturally pushed immigrants to assimilate. Immigrants naturally kept the most important parts of the culture from their homeland, and shed the parts that were incompatible. Natural processes made the immigrants and native citizens better off.

The faster any group joins the mainstream, the faster they will be productive and have a level of prosperity and independence.

Another point a poster brought up… it is odd that wherever you travel in the world, people want to learn English. There are private English schools full of students in poor and rich countries (Mexico, Japan, China, Malaysia, Germany, etc etc etc). People in these countries hold being able to speak English as a point of pride. It seems only in America are the politicians, government entities, and special interest groups are resisting English.

If immigrants are not encouraged to join American society, many of them will remain outsiders.

I grew up in south Florida. Before “diversity” got traction things seemed pretty cordial and peaceful between Hispanics and whites. The Cubans took pride in adopting English and assimilating. After diversity reared its ugly head, I noticed a marked change. Cubans started refusing to speak English and taking pride in being part of a clique. Things became much less cordial.

We do not need more special interest groups… we need more people to be Americans.

“United we Stand, and Diversity we Fall”

Official Language
And what would making English the offical language actually do? It wouldn't remove most of what ding bat objects to--you'd still be pushing one for English, still seeing Univision on your cable listings, still seeing billboards in Spanish, still seeing businesses with other languages on their signs, still seeing people doing business in languages other than English.

I guess all government forms would be in English and everyone would have to vote in English. Big deal, and news for the ding bat, not all naturalized citizens must know English--there is no requirement for those over 65 who are long term permanent residents to learn English to become US citizens.

And again, who cares about the ballots. If you don't know a word of English, and the ballot is in English, you can bring someone into the booth to help you vote. Making English the official language is about at critical and as useful as naming grits the official processed food of Georgia as grits.


Not a flag waver
Well, because being a member of a flight crew, English is part of the BFOQ--sorting clothes in a warehouse I don't see how English is that key to the job performance really.

And seems to me English is still the primary language in the US. Who cares if a business owner wants to put up a business sign or billboard in Spanish or Korean? I have't seen too many stop signs or traffic signs in Chinese for example, what makes you think English isn't the primary language in the US?