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Sunday, October 11, 2009
Austin Hill :: Townhall.com Columnist
Note To Catholic Bishops: Obamanomics Is Evil, Too
by Austin Hill
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Breaking news: some of the American Catholic Bishops are in disagreement with President Obama and the Democratically controlled Congress, over their proposals for healthcare legislation. Not surprisingly, the Bishops are concerned because the proposals allow for taxpayer funded abortions.

But is this the only thing that the Catholic Bishops – and other intelligent, rational people of faith – should find appalling with “Obamacare” as it is currently being formulated? In other words, if abortion funding were to be eliminated from the Obamacare plans, would the American Catholic Bishops then decide that Obamacare is great?

Last Thursday, Bishop William Murphy, Cardinal Justin Rigali, and Bishop John Wester published yet another letter urging the Congress to “improve” the current healthcare legislation. They also expressed their “disappointment that progress has not been made on the three priority criteria for healthcare reform” that they had cited in their previous letters.

Among the Bishop’s “priority criteria” for American healthcare are the following points: that no one should be forced to pay for or participate in an abortion, that healthcare should be affordable and available to the poor and vulnerable, and that “the needs of legal immigrants are met.” Taken individually, each of these “criteria” is fine, so far as it goes. But attempting to attach these agenda items to President Obama’s plans for a government take-over of the healthcare industry and the medical profession is, at best, a huge mistake, and at worst, irrational.

As for ensuring that nobody be forced to fund or participate in an abortion, the Bishops should certainly stand their ground on this. And while the Catholic Church (as well as most other Christian churches) officially states its believe in the “sanctity of the unborn” and opposes the slaughter of children, the American Catholic clergy are, nonetheless, quite inconsistent when it comes to upholding their stated “pro life” worldview.

Recall, for example, the flap that erupted last May when President Obama delivered Notre Dame University’s commencement address. Given that Obama is arguably the most ardent abortion-supporting President of record, the University fell under harsh criticism for inviting him to speak.

Yet in defending himself against the criticism, Father John Jenkins, president of the University of Notre Dame, claimed that President Obama had been invited to the university not because of his stance on abortion rights, but because he is an inspiring leader who has “overcome a racial barrier.”

That's a fair assessment of President Obama, so far as it goes; indeed, Obama has overcome a very significant racial barrier, and one could say that he is “inspiring” in this regard.

Yet Jenkins’ implicit message is confounding. His response to the Obama outrage implied that abortion is not a preeminent concern, that it is merely one of several issues in the realm of political leadership and public policy that Catholics are supposed to care about, and not necessarily the MOST IMPORTANT issue.

If abortion is “one of several” public policy concerns for Catholics, then that’s fine. Yet now some of the Bishops seem to be back to the “abortion is preeminent” position. My point here is that American Catholic clergy are frequently “all over the road” on the abortion issue, and this inconsistency weakens their efforts at influencing any public policy at all.

So what are we to make of the Bishops’ concern that “healthcare should be affordable and available to the poor and vulnerable?” By federal law, healthcare is already made available to anybody who enters a hospital in America and requests treatment, regardless of their ability to pay (this is why Obama changed his own rhetoric back in July, dropping his calls for “healthcare reform” and morphing the agenda into “health insurance reform”). And the lack of affordability in healthcare is, in no small part, because of a lack of a truly competitive free market for health insurance, and because those who work for a living and actually pay for their health insurance are also paying for those who don’t work and don’t pay their way.

In short, the Bishops are proposing some lofty ideals, but they seem to be ignoring the economics of it all. They seem to be ignoring the wisdom of Pope John Paul II, who eloquently taught that all of life is connected to economics – and yes, this reality even applies to healthcare.

The Bishops’ own concerns even speak to this economic reality. They are fretting over Americans being coerced by government to pay for abortions - that’s an issue regarding the “sanctity of life,” yes, but it’s also an issue of economics. The two are inextricably attached, just as all of life is attached to economic concerns.

If the Bishops took more seriously the Church’s teaching on the virtue of free markets, and the immorality and devastation brought about by economic redistribution, they would find plenty more to dislike about Obamacare, specifically, but also Obamanomics, generally.

Hopefully the American Catholic laity are seeing things more clearly, even if the Bishops do not.

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About The Author
Austin Hill is a Talk Show Host At Boise, Idaho's 580 KIDO Radio, and a frequent Guest Host on the Fox Newstalk Radio Network. He is the Author of "White House Confidential: The Little Book Of Weird Presidential History," And Co-Author of the forthcoming title "The Virtues Of Capitalism: A Moral Case For Free Markets" (Northfield/Moody Press, 2010).
 
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Harmony


Protestantism is Christianity ultra-light. Those who don't want to put any effort into their beliefs or give to God become one of the many thousands of squabbling Protestant break away churches. Where is it that you go to Church on Sunday or go to hell? Where is it that Protestants and fundamentalists make up stuff???? They don't even follow the bible.

Who helps the poor?
JA: I'm unsure what a 'dekes' is... Sorry.

More substantively, Catholic positions are often deeply rooted in historical experience. This is one of those cases. I've posted an essay answering many of these comments' questions & musings at a humble little blog. Just google 'Dumb Ox Bellowed' or 'Duck Archer', or go to http://dumboxbellowed.blogtownhall.com/ Essay is the same title as this comment.

Cheers.

Parker
"While many may 'feel' it proper and right to coerce one to give money, that is, "... render unto Caesar..." as many love to quote,..."

They might stop doing that if they'd remember that all things belong to God.

Don't Hold Your Breath Austin
I'm not expecting the Bishops, good men as most of them are, to speak out on economics. Like a young person who has never had to earn a paycheck, the priesthood doesn't live in that part of the "real world." But that doesn't mean they shouldn't.

jg and John Acton
Thanks for clarifying my point.

I find it difficult to believe that so-called Catholics can delude themselves into thinking that Capitol Punishment (of a mentally competent person who chose to do evil) can even BEGIN to be compared to taking the life of an unborn baby.

No wonder the world is in the state it's in!

Re: Now that's hard
"Duck Archer?"

Wow! You really must have some great dekes!

Re: I gave at the office
"Why is the church asking the government to take care of the poor? What is their job again?"

Perhaps because the government has already wrongfully taken over that job from the Churchs. Of course, the Churchs do take care of lots of poor around the World, however, as government sucks funds out of the economy to "re-distribute" to their chosen "interest groups" less funds are going into the collection basket.

It would seem that it about time for the churchs to see government for what it really is, a secular competitor for the hearts, minds, and souls of the people.

Perhaps someone should
right a book entitled "Social Justice and the True calling of the Church." Then we could hand them out to all church leaders across the country. Jim Wallis and his goons have had a horrible effect on American Churches.

Why is the church
asking the government to take care of the poor? What is their job again?

Scranton Phoney Rear Echelon Hal !

Bishop Joseph Martino Resigned as Head of The Scranton Diocese . NOBODY FIRED HIM ,YOU LYING PIECE OF GARBAGE .

You had better watch your lying mouth ,you obnoxious Fat Slob.

Mere Conservatism
The fundamental reason we argue over the socio-political issues of our time is because we all have ideas about the way things should be. Everyone believes in something. Everyone has a value-system that impacts how they look at the world. No one is a true relativist, for even the person who touts that all truth is equal has made a distinct truth-claim.

You absolutely MUST take a peek at this blog I found that a young conservative in Chicago is writing to help better clarify and define what conservatism is all about:

http://rjmoeller.com/2009/10/mere-conservatism-the-beginnin g/

Apples & Oranges
Point 1: Fr Jenkins is a priest, not a bishop. What any priest says is irrelevant to what bishops teach, aside from a priest breaking a vow of obedience to the bishop.

POint 2. The fact that about half the bishops were willing to *publicly* condemn Notre Dame's decision is telling. Only 30 years ago we even had a Seattle Bishop who made a big stink about withholding some of his federal taxes in protest of the percentage that went to nuclear weapons. The pope quickly stripped him of most powers by emplacing an auxiliary bishop to both run things and straighten him out. This was the era when American Catholic bishops let pop psychology replace theology, and 'koombaya' replace common sense; in short, this was the era when bishops did the wrong thing with gay priests abusing teens, though they did what the best psychology of the era said to do. Pope John Paul 2nd did much with the little he had after our Pop Psychology Revolution. Benedict 16th should be able to do even more.

Point 3. American Catholicism has a priest shortage, increasing the workload on the bishops who, like all of us, cannot be everywhere at all times. But the seminaries that have closed were the liberal seminaries teaching far more psychology than theology, and cleaving to liberal political theories. Those seminaries are largely history. Meanwhile, authentically Catholic seminaries are now churning out a delightful crop of young priests who are able to preach authentic dogma, provide meaningful counsel, and shoulder the shame thrust on all priests by the bad bishops of a generation ago.

Point 4. If Catholic positions seem to vascillate, it's truly the eye of the Protestant or Secularist beholder who would insist on understanding Catholicism through a 'majority vote rules' prism. Catholicism has never been a democracy.

Cheers.

There are two Catholic churches in...
existence today(metaphorically speaking). There is the traditional branch which holds to the immutable teachings of Christ as handed down through the Apostles, Scared Scripture, and sacred oral tradition...
Then there is the liberal element which gained prominance since Vatican II, and have used that Counc9il as a means to subvert much of the prior thinking rearding social... even moral issues.

As a traditional catholic I am forever writing to correct the intentionally ambiguous and equivocating writings/homilies of many of those liberal "Catholic" clergy/publications. Confusion reigns as feel good platitudes and "tolerance" are Preached as it regards formally recognized sinful behavior. Homosexuality(lifestyle) for example is rarely(if ever)addressed as the grevious sin that scripture(and the Pre-vatican II church)has consistently taught. Instead tolerance and love of homosexuals, regardless of their lifestyle choice, is the preeminent admonishment.

No Caveat regarding the sinful nature of that choice is ever heard today. This dissenting, liberal view carries over into other areas including social issues such as health care.
The distinctions that Austin Hill make, especially father Jennings and the Notre Dame debacle are a prime example of how this new age mentality held by many dissenters within, whom I might add, go unopposed, is weakening the church.

Now let me see...
As a Roman Catholic, faithful to Christ, his teachings and the Church catholic, I find myself arguing/debating on a regular basis with a local deacon who tends to espouse a 'social justice' theory of economics. He loves to quote a variety of his 'favorite' passages which he believes supports his view, and while most are generally out of their proper context, they are almost always, in his interpretive application(s), contradictory to the whole of scripture.

I find myself always reminding him of a very important precept in biblical interpretation even for Roman Catholics: ie, scripture interprets scripture. While many may 'feel' it proper and right to coerce one to give money, that is, "... render unto Caesar..." as many love to quote, they forget, it is not a sin to give your money to a thief. Therefore, is it lawful to render taxes? Yes. On the other hand, is it lawful to steal? No. Is it lawful to covet? No. Is it lawful to judge without authority? No. Is it lawful to withhold a man's wages? No. Is it lawful to take and hold collateral from a poor man? No. Is is lawful to steal a man's labor? No. Is it lawful to exact interest/usury? No. Is it lawful to deal with unjust weights and measures? No.

Get the picture?

Many of the bishops speak in error, just as my friend the deacon, however, that is not to say they speak for the Church particular nor does it mean they speak for the Church Catholic. They speak for themselves and unfortunately, many often speak in error. Perhaps someday Christ will unite his visible church. Until that day, his invisible Church shall always remain holy, catholic and as perfect as her shepherd.

Re: Quid est veritas?
"Try again. It's not in Greek, and would either be 616 or 1316."

So it's Latin. It makes no difference as it still represents Nero. But I thought your prime thesis was that those who wrote the New Testament, did so in Greek. How does that work with 666?

"Also, your translation of Matthew is faulty."

Not if you use the original Aramaic and not Greek as the language used in St. Matthews original manuscript. There is absolutely no proof that St. Matthew wrote in Greek instead of the common language of Jesus, the Christ, and His Apostles and disciples.

Re: Culture of Death
"Good posts. But I thought abortion & genocide, according to Vatican II, brought immediate ex-communication? Is that true of forced starvation?"

Canon 1398 provides that, "a person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication." This is unlike genocide or euthanasia (like starving to death the sick and disabled) which do not mean automatic immediate excommunication. Seeing how these horrors all take innocent human lives as well as does abortion, they too should prompt automatic and prompt latae sententiae excommunication.

Re: Feeding the Poor
"I was thinking about starvation due to poverty, which has become vanishingly rare in the US."

The Biblical example of how we should feed the starving is the reference to the gleaners who were permitted to take from a harvested or unharvested field what they and their families can eat in the field. The idea was not to allow these gleaners to take no more than they and their family could consume, and thus selling any excess in competition to the farmer, who charitable gift they were enjoying. Note that this charity was not absence of effort on the part of recipient, as they had to physical gather the food that they were to enjoy.

"When you reap the harvest of your land, moreover, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field nor gather the gleaning of your harvest; you are to leave them for the needy and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22

John A.
"I suggest you re-read St. John Apocalypse with an open hear and MIND to understand that the Numeric equivalent of "666" is Nero's name in Greek the Greek alphabet."

Try again. It's not in Greek, and would either be 616 or 1316.

Also, your translation of Matthew is faulty.


Yeah Right. So the catholics say....
If the American Catholic Church had actually read the Bible, and more specifically the new testament, they would know that Jesus never said it was the governments job to take care of people, and to make life easier for them.
If they had actually read the holy book, they'd know that it's the church's job to take care of the sick, the infirm, the dying, the widows, and the orphans. But then, if they knew that, then they'd be having to spend money instead of taking it in.

Somewhere, the church has forgotten that God thinks that governments are a bad idea, and that being in debt to a government is even worse.

But then again, the catholic church has forgotten a lot of things about the truth, and in my opinion has fallen away.

John Acton
Good posts. But I thought abortion & genocide, according to Vatican II, brought immediate ex-communication? Is that true of forced starvation?

John Acton
Oh yes, forced starvation is a grave sin, so grave I thought it unthinkable. Missed it.

I was thinking about starvation due to poverty, which has become vanishingly rare in the US.


Re: Bigots of the World Unit
"'Year 2001:Catholic Church Proclaims-Renounce Your Faith or Die!'

http://www.remnantofgod.org/n1010615.htm

"Something to think about!"

Only a Chick Comic Book reading twit such as you would believe such bigoted horse pucky as this crap. If you bothered check, you find that the government of Mexico is more secular than even the Obama Administration, and that it even persecuted the Church as did the Republican Spanish government did in the 1930s. More Catholics died in Hitler's concentration camps and Lenin's and Stalin's gulags, and Mao's China than all the Christian denominations combined. In those great Protestant Christians that made up the membership of the Ku Klux Klan were equal opportunity bigots that would as soon lynch a Catholic as a black.

Take your ugly anti-Catholic bigotry and shove it up your anus, you idiot!

Re: Quid est veritas?
"A well-catechized Catholic knows that abortion is the one and only life issue that matters until and unless it is correctly resolved. Health care, starvation, death penalty, and war of choice are not commensurable, either singly or as a whole, with the right to life of a child."

Using starvation or denying water as means to murdering a disabled person is equally as immoral as taking the life of an unborn innocent child. This, too, is the Doctrine of the Church.

Nowhere does the Church's Doctrine claim that Charity is the province of the State or government. Instead, the Church promotes the "Principle of Subsidiarity" whereby the Charity begins at home, in the family, and then in the community through the Church and the community based private charities. Along with the charity of feeding the starving, housing the homeless, and caring for the ill and infirmed, true charity demands that changing the charity recipient's life so that they can provide for their own care in the future. The government dole does not perform this final charge of charity well if at all. Paying taxes is in no way the moral equivalent of freely giving of oneself and one's property through real charity.

John Acton
Yup.

Re: Quid est veritas?
"For the Catholic laity, abortion is not the only 'life' issue; and so, for the Catholic laity, Democrats are as acceptable as Republicans."

Based on the actual doctrine of the Catholic Church, participation in abortion is not even close to the participation in a just war or capital punishment. The Church's itself may argue as to what is or what is not a "just war," however, soldier's who behaves correctly in performing their military duties as soldiers in a war are not guilty of committing sin, just as penal officers who participate in carrying out a properly adjudicated death sentence are not guilty of sinful behavior.

I am afraid that any so-called practicing Catholic who considers a candidate's opposition to capital punishment or to war as the moral equivalent to promotion of another candidate's pro-life stance regarding the murder of unborn INNOCENT babies is morally wrong and theologically and logically challenged.

Georgia Gal: Catholics and abortion

Thank you for:
"For the Catholic laity, abortion is not the only "life" issue; and so, for the Catholic laity, Democrats are as acceptable as Republicans."

Acceptable to poorly catechized Catholics. These unfortunates do not know the tenets of their faith, so they make this and similar false claims.

A well-catechized Catholic knows that abortion is the one and only life issue that matters until and unless it is correctly resolved. Health care, starvation, death penalty, and war of choice are not commensurable, either singly or as a whole, with the right to life of a child.

So your “Go Obama” is a helpful indicator. And I am pleased to reply, "Go away, Obama," for reasons given in the Catechism and earlier in this thread.


Anything
that is strictly theological without human rationale in the mix cannot be legitimized. And the opposite is true as well: anything based strictly on human rationale without considering the Greater Power or our Creator is just as much foolishness. We are discovering the world around us in more or less synchronicity with the greater meaning of the Creator's message for the human role in His Creation. Individual need is the responsibility of the individual, as any group’s need should be the responsibility of the group. For the survival and strength of our nation, choices must be made by the government for the benefit of the whole nation. Health care is the need of the individual and provisions (as imperfect as they may be) are already in place where no one in our nation dies because of lack of health care. Our healthcare system is as close to perfection as humanly possible, and tempering with it for the sake of equality is as foolish as the Communists propaganda of wealth distribution. We are born equal only in the sense as being human beings. What the individual outcome is, is as vastly diverse as we are. Our healthcare system reflects this truism. Some have more than they need and some have very little. To try to take away from those who have more than they need to give to those who don’t have as much, is unfair to both. As things stand, the burdens of the have-nots are already being shared by those that have a lot. Why try to ruin it with unachievable idealism? Taking into consideration all consequences it can only be made worse rather than better.

The "Catholic"hierarchy . . .
and the "Catholic" laity are two different entities.
The Catholic hierarchy are the (mostly left-wing) political part of the Catholic church who will sell out Catholic doctrine for "funding". Just look at the so-called "liberation theology" doctrine which has taken hold in much of the world.
True Catholicism can only be practiced by the laity (lay persons). Those who embrace Catholic doctrine on life, care for the poor and live a decent life are the only TRUE CATHOLICS.
People confuse "ritual" with "dogma". The requirement for Catholics to attend Mass on Sundays or avoiding meat on Fridays is part of "ritual". Catholic "dogma" requires a Catholic to respect life and live a decent life.

Then there's this...!
"Year 2001:Catholic Church Proclaims-Renounce Your Faith or Die!"

http://www.remnantofgod.org/n1010615.htm

Something to think about!

The problem is
The problem here in Georgia is that individuals with chronic ailments; who cannot buy health insurance at any price (because health insurance companies will not sell insurance to individuals with chronic ailments); and who earn over $16,800/year, or who live in a household with income of over $16,800/year, are required to pay out of pocket for any and all care they receive, including from "Urgent Care" facilities. When cancer treatments cost thousands of dollars; when anti-seizure medications are $2,000/month; when asthma inhalers are $400; individuals are really stuck in a bad place, where they can only get healthcare when their lives are in immediate danger. How much better it will be when individuals can buy health insurance regardless of whether or not they have a "pre-existing condition"; and especially how much better it will be when everyone pays the same price for health insurance.
Go Obama!

Response about Catholics
from above: "The Catholic Church STILL teaches against abortion so why don't the people who don't believe what the church teaches go find a church that is pro-abortion, instead of continuing to call themselves catholics? "
As regards to politics: most Catholic voters, like most voters, are not single-issue voters. When it comes to the pro-life issue, both parties have pro-life and anti-life elements. Democrats are pro-life in the following ways: having as a goal, universal access to healthcare; having as a goal, no starvation regardless of job status (see: food stamps); opposition to the death penalty; and less willing to engage in "war of choice". Republicans are pro-life in the following way: opposition to abortion. For the Catholic laity, abortion is not the only "life" issue; and so, for the Catholic laity, Democrats are as acceptable as Republicans.

GeorgiaGal: That's as it SHOULD BE.

".. if triage determines that the person is in the midst of a life-threatening emergency, that person is cared for."

That's the key... if it's life-threatening, everyone gets care!

Hospital ERs are not primary care facilities.

Hospital ERs were never intended to be primary care facilities.

Most areas have "Urgent Care" facilities... which are intended and designed to handle situations that one would normally see his/her physician for...

People.. insured or not, use hospital ERs when they shouldn't be.


Not True!
from the article: "By federal law, healthcare is already made available to anybody who enters a hospital in America and requests treatment, regardless of their ability to pay" This is not true! Here in Georgia, the process goes like this: someone enters a hospital; this person goes directly to triage; if triage determines that the person is in the midst of a life-threatening emergency, that person is cared for. However, if triage determines that the person can survive the next 24 hours without significant health consequences, the next step for that person is to go to the Cashier. If the person has insurance, the insurance company is contacted, and insurance verified; if the person does not have insurance, payment is requested. If the person does not have the funds to pay for treatment, that person is turned away from the hospital, usually with phone numbers of Social Service Agencies.
Here in Georgia, people who have chronic ailments better have health insurance or money; otherwise, they will receive treatment ONLY when their condition results in a life-threatening condition; and not before.
Go Obama!!!!

Martino was toast.. just like doofuss...

who is ALSO toast...

But doof has one up on Martino... doof is BURNT TOAST! lol


Bill you forgot to mention that ...
"Date: Oct 11, 2009 - 12:19 PM EST
Carlos !

Whether The Jew , Burt Prelutsky or The Catholic , Joseph Martino ,The Bishop of Scranton ,there is an effort to silence Conservative voices..."

Martino was FIRED by the Vatican as a huge failure who severely damaged his diocese. Burt was old and tired. Why did you not mention that Martino was toast?

Re: Whose Property is it, anyway?
"Yes, we are guaranteed the PURSUIT of happiness, but we are not guaranteed happiness."

Actually, the Creator (not government) Endowed Unalienable Right to the Pursuit of Happiness is the general right of accumulating property. Man's pursuit of happiness, is their right to the "fruits" of the "sweat of their brow." This right provides for the protection of ones rightfully owned property. In the "State of Nature" this right as the right of self-defense and the defense of ones property with physical violence if necessary. In an organized society under a limited government, this right is defended by the Law, and by constables appointed to uphold the Law.

Socialism, in any of its forms is diametrically opposed to the "Pursuit of Happiness" because it uses the coercive authority of government to deprive one member of a society of their property to award it to another. This totally contrary to the "laws of nature and nature's God," as well as the Principles upon which our Nation was based.

Re: Obama v. Limited Government
"STATISM: Generally, a program or viewpoint that looks to the state for resolution of social and moral problems, rather than to individual effort. Specifically, a condition where the nongovernmental institutions of a society develop an overextended and unhealthy reliance upon political structures for the solution of problems. Statism stands in direct violation of the principle of subsidiarity (see Subsidiarity, The Principle of) and sphere sovereignty (see Sphere Sovereignty). Statists believe that the resolution to social problems should be obtained through legislative measures.

"TYRANNY: A form of government where a single ruler is vested with absolute power. The defective version of monarchy (see Monarchy, Statism, and Totalitarianism). Any absolute and oppressive power. Infamous tyrants include Mao Tse-Tung*, Adolf Hitler*, and Joseph Stalin*.

"MONARCHY: Literally government by a monarch or sovereign, such as a king or emperor, who has supreme power over a realm. Key contemporary advocates include Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn.

"TOTALITARIANISM: This is the view that any institutional separation between the state and nongovernmental organizations (such as churches, private hospitals, civic groups, charities, etc.) must be eliminated. Totalitarians insist that all the major institutions of society should be directed by the state (see Statism). Key political movements include Italian Fascism, Nazism, and Communism." * = RIP From: Dictionary of Terms for Free and Virtuous Society

The Church's doctrine promotes "Limited Government." Anyone supposedly on behalf of the Church that promotes "Statism" is no truly representing Church teachings.

Re: Obama v. Limited Government
"LIMITED GOVERNMENT: The idea that government is not all-competent. Government is one social institution among others having its own distinct sphere of responsibility and authority. The tendency of government is to assert regulatory authority beyond its proper bounds. Limited government was an essential idea undergirding the founding of the American republic. The framers of the Constitution, who had experienced first-hand the tyranny (see Tyranny) of the British monarchy, reckoned that it was imprudent to endow one branch of government with supreme power. They reasoned that unless authority was distributed equally among different branches of government, fallen human nature would eventually cause leaders to become tyrants. As Lord Acton wrote nearly a century later, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Key thinkers include John Jay*, James Madison*, Alexander Hamilton*, Thomas Jefferson*, and John Adams*.

"SPHERE SOVEREIGNTY: A principle of Reformed Christian social ethics, usually associated with the thought of Dutch Prime Minister Abraham Kuyper*, that identifies a number of God- ordained creational spheres, which include the family, the state, culture, and the church. These spheres each have their own organizing and ruling ordinances, and each maintains a measure of authority relative to the others. Just social and political structures, therefore, should be ordered so that the authority of each sphere is preserved (see Limited Government and Subsidiarity, The Principle of)."

Re: Culture of Death Morality
"The Catholic Church STILL teaches against abortion so why don't the people who don't believe what the church teaches go find a church that is pro-abortion, instead of continuing to call themselves catholics?"

Perhaps because they think that they are really members of the Episcopal Church.

Re: Obama v. Limited Government
The Catholic "Principle of Subsidiarity" was exactly the philosophy that undergirded the foundation of the Nation of the United States of America, and also the institution of its government under our Constitution.

"SUBSIDIARITY, THE PRINCIPLE OF: A principle from Catholic Social Teaching but with correspondences to American federalism (see Limited Government) and the Dutch Calvinist concept of sphere sovereignty (see Sphere Sovereignty) which views society as comprised of various networks of natural mediating institutions (such as family, neighborhoods, churches, voluntary organizations, the free press, among others). Each of these institutions has natural functions, responsibilities, and obligations. For example, families raise children, churches provide moral and spiritual guidance, and so on.

"Subsidiarity teaches that the higher or more complex social structures (such as government) should not interfere unnecessarily in the affairs of the lower social structures (such as the family). Unnecessary interference from the higher structures robs the lower structures of their natural functions. Over time this interference can cause the breakdown of the mediating institutions in a society. If breakdown occurs politics will replace private association as the infrastructure of society.

"Subsidiarity does allow for the interference of higher institutions in the affairs of lower ones in situations of crisis, emergency, or when they are not capable of being self-sufficient. However, when such interference occurs it should be specifically focused, limited, temporary, and seek to reestablish the institution's self-sufficiency."

According to the Wash. Post . . .
"Catholics voted for Mr. Obama over Mr. McCain by a nine-point margin (54 percent versus 45 percent). . ."

"Their votes came despite the warnings from 89 bishops who issued a blizzard of statements in the closing weeks of the election, warning against voting for a pro-choice candidate."

"Mr. Obama did especially well among Hispanics, who are overwhelmingly Catholic. Two-thirds of them voted for him compared with white Catholics, who voted for Mr. McCain 52 to 47 percent over Mr. Obama."

Even the lowest percentage voting for the pro-abortion candidate was 47%!

Things have really changed since I was a member of the church.

The Catholic Church STILL teaches against abortion so why don't the people who don't believe what the church teaches go find a church that is pro-abortion, instead of continuing to call themselves catholics?

Re: Bible for Theologically Challenged
"I've been saying that the Catholic Church is the church of the anti-christ as described in Revelation."

You ignorant bigot! The Antichrist of St. John was Nero, the Roman Caesar who was then persecuting the 7 Catholic Churches in Asia-Minor established by St. John and to who he address his epistle of encouragement. I suggest you re-read St. John Apocalypse with an open hear and MIND to understand that the Numeric equivalent of "666" is Nero's name in Greek the Greek alphabet. You might also find that St. John's vision of Jesus, the Christ, "a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek" ministering at the Heavenly Mass that represents exactly the Mass which is celebrated every day in every Catholic Church around the World.

Your bigoted un-Scriptural nonsense is quite disgussing.

Re: Bible for Theologically Challenged
"No man on earth has the ability, or the authority to intervene between a person created by God, and His message to us inspired through the Holy Spirit, as we study the Bible with sincerity."

Please provide the Book, Chapter, and Verse where one might find that your "Sola Scriptura" doctrine is "biblical." As for authority to intervene on behalf of man on Earth before God in Heaven, just how are you inspired" to interpret this passage of the Holy Word?

"'I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven'." Matthew 16:18-19

"The more that I study the Bible, the more that Catholisism appears to be deviant of the true message of the Scriptures. Too many things added, and too many omissions; precisely what God warns against."

In what respect does the true Doctrines of the Church created by Jesus, the Christ, with St. Peter as its Earthly head, and His Apostles as its administration, differ from the Bible. After all, just who was responsible for giving us the Holy Bible and establishing its Canon, if not the Roman Catholic Church? BTW, when was the Bible finally written? Just what was the faithful suppose to do for this "Message" before then? And why did Jesus, the Christ, instruct his Apostles and disciples that this "Good News of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations" instead of instructing to scribe the "Good News" and pass it out to be "read by the whole World?"

Note to Catholic Bishops, Obamanomics
No man on earth has the ability, or the authority to intervene between a person created by God, and His message to us inspired through the Holy Spirit, as we study the Bible with sincerity.

The more that I study the Bible, the more that Catholisism appears to be deviant of the true message of the Scriptures. Too many things added, and too many omissions; precisely what God warns against.

The Constitution of this Country is recognized by many, as the greatest basis of governing Law ever written, and in my mind, was inspired by God.

However, when it comes to our Representatives in Congress,legislating in a Constitutional manner, the greater majority don't make a passing grade. Political party affiliations just seem to make the matters worse; the only allegience that needs to exist in any legislation, is to the Constitution alone. Our Forefathers new what they were doing when they designed our Founding Documents; but evidently we as a Nation have not employed their wisdom very well down through the years.

2010 is the critical point in the future of this country. I for one will only vote for a representative who is a advocate of the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers; as that is the only way that this Country will even have a future.

"What???!!"
"The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer was effected within the Roman Catholic Citadel on June 29,1963."
Investigate for yourselves what Malachi Martin was exposing about the Catholic Church. He wrote "Windswept House" as Fiction,but you can find online the key to these supposedly "fictional" characters.
I've been saying that the Catholic Church is the church of the anti-christ as described in Revelation.This backs it up even further.
For anyone who wants to understand what's happening in the world today,and why,and where we're headed,one must search biblical prophecy.

The Big Mick

It is refreshing to hear one speak of Freedom!

Our Dear Joe Wilson stood up ... Shocking the Democrat Thieves, and unnerving the Old Guard Republicans.

One day that voice will possess an echo,

And that echo will grow,

And we will return our destiny,

To it's rightful owners,


We The People!


Pursuit Not Trivial

Yes, we are guaranteed the PURSUIT of happiness, but we are not guaranteed happiness.

Since today is the Chicago marathon, let's look at the marathoners for example. A runner may decide to wear next to nothing in freezing temperatures because he wishes to PURSUE his goal of finishing, and perhaps winning, a marathon. It is his decision. He has trained for the occasion. He is entitled to pursue his happiness. The runner epitomizes the Founders of this country. They had a dream of a country where freedom allowed people to pursue their dreams and attain their goals. Now, if we were to fall in line with those who espouse social justice, then there would be no marathon. Why? Because some cannot run. Some haven't the energy. Some haven't the desire. Some do not wish to train. Some want to be given goodies without working for them. Some want the benefits without the sacrifice. Some believe that they are owed the trophies because of some long ago injustice. In utopia, all would be given the same rewards whether they ran the race or not. Unfortunately, the reward of finishing, and perhaps winning, would be lost forever since those who didn't even leave the sofa and warmth of their homes would be given the same reward that those who did receive.

That is Socialism, my friends. Socialism zaps desire. Socialism kills initiative. Socialism creates a disincentive. Socialism seeks to equalize rewards even though the efforts of people are disparate. Socialism in not concerned with the pursuit, which is actually more important than the pot of gold at the end of the traveled rainbow. Socialism is only concerned with forcing most to be equal. If that equality is shared misery, then so be it they will tell you. "We aren't interested in happiness. We only strive to force people to be equal regardless of the state in which they must live", they will say.

Happiness is meaningless without the pursuit and pursuit is the road less traveled in Socialism.

The American Catholic Church Hierarchy
Other posters have pointed out that the Am-Church bishops and too many priests were "educated" (intellectually malformed) and came of age in the 1960s. The debacle of Vatican II made it possible for a certain element -- deviants working to remake the Church in its own (gay, pro-gay,radical feminist, neo-marxist, possibly card-carrying Communist) likeness and image. These moles infiltrated the seminaries back then, and their depredations were well-chronicled by W.S. Rose's book "Goodbye Good Men." They indoctrinated the current, thankfully aging and soon-to-retire Am-Church hierarchy. (A few good ones --Bruskowitz, Chaput and probably a handful of others-- have transcended the effects of that corruption, but unfortunately for every one of them there are a dozen Roger Mahoneys.) They blather on about "Social Justice" (redistribution of wealth by governent, open borders) while invoking "The Spirit of Vatican II" (A hideous poltergeist, IMONHO) to justify everything from degraded liturgy to the abandonment of authentic Christian moral teaching.

There is a HUGE difference between true Catholics and the Jenkins types. Thank God the younger priests are shaping up a lot more conservative. Many catholics are counting the months until their current bishops retire. We pray for orthodox replacements.

Carlos 12:40
Up the Revolution Man!
Our current FORM of Government, the the Constitutional Entities but there bastid offspring monsters, HAS become “destructive to these ends.”
I advocate American Revolution v3.0, and await its John and Sam Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, and MOST important Ethan Allen.
I hope someone will point them out to me when these people arise, as they MUST if the Republic is to be saved. I predict Civil War 2 will be necessary.
It is time to start having an honest discussion about what that would look like and how it could be accomplished. To continue to regard and label a consideration of this option in theory as “extremist” or “irrational” is a kind of denial that, itself, borders on irrationality. History tell us that SOMETIMES, one can argue, historically, ALWAYS, the Revolution option is the ONLY way to secure a people’s Sacred Liberties. SOME folks, SOME time have to be willing to consider it if Freedom is to endure. It’s way past time to start asking the question: “If not this, what? If not now, when?”

The Big Mick

It is immoral to coerce sharing
FORCING someone, even by the Tyranny of the one over 50% driving Government Coercion,
to pay for someone else is simply Theft writ large and immoral and unethical. It has NO Christian VIRTUE and, in actuality, makes it MORE DIFFICULT, due to cooption of resources for individuals to engage in the CHRISTIAN Virtue of VOLUNTARY sharing.
There is no Theological Justification for STATE redistribution of wealth, and NO Christian Virtue in it. Those who advocate it are not only in Theological and Scriptural ERROR, call it heterodoxy bordering on HERESY, they are actually advocating, aiding and abetting the SIN of THEFT and ENABLING acts whose actual EFFECTS Institutionalize Poverty.
It is actually Redistributionism that “grinds the faces of the poor.”
There is great EVIL in this and it should be resisted by Christians at every turn.
We should be giving HALF or ALL of OUR OWN STUFF to the poor (but NEVER to the parasitical) but RESISTING with all the means at our disposal the THEFT of wealth from OTHERS by ANYBODY and EVERYBODY.

Mick

balanced (or not)
"You can find just as many biblical quotes that prove Jesus was a liberal, and where God commanded that we take care of the poor among us.

Yes you can. (oh, sorry about choosing that phrase!)

My contract with God is an individual one. If I adopt and live by his spirit and laws, I will individually make the choice to help individuals or groups as I choose, driven by HIS spirit.

If government makes me contribute to the society as a whole by coercion, you get a situation like Islamic forced conversion. Yes, the Koran does permit that.

If I force you to give money to charity, I am stealing something from you. That is a sin. Simple, no explanation required.

I am not a Catholic so I am not going to get in the intricacies of church policy, so don't go there.

Anne !

Hal entered Marge's name and then wore a blond wig and gold strapless gown to the Playboy interview.He had on smeary lipstick and false eyelashes and got a full body hair wax,including a bikini hair wax ,had his toe nails sanded down with an autobody sander and strapped on a pair of open toed high heals.

( excuse me,I just made myself throw up in my mouth )

more later..... I need some air !

Political Christianity
I hear atheists condemn religion and Christianity in particular for the so much evil in the past. They have a point as so many tyrants throughout history have used religious levers to justify their quest for power.
It is incumbent upon individual Christians to vigorously challenge 'political Christians' at all times when they advocate for more power for themselves instead of following Christ's words and deeds by persuasion, not coercion.

Bill & Carlos: Off topic a bit...

doofuss is probably going to start getting a little uppity. Apparently Marge is going to be on the next Playboy cover.

Bet he's so proud!


YAAAAAA Y Carlos !

You Da Man !

We Will Write "The Contract From America " and Hold Elected Officials to It's Tenets.

http://www.contractfromamerica.com/Idea.aspx


Continuing From Mary !

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person -every person -needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Deus Caritas Est #28)

Bill

Yes! Yes! I am a Rebel.

Time to upend the Statist Thieves!

Interesting,Mary From Florida !

I. The Principle of Subsidiarity: Preamble to the Work of Reform
This notion that health care ought to be determined at the lowest level rather than at the higher strata of society, has been promoted by the Church as “subsidiarity.” " SUBSIDIARITY " is that principle by which we respect the inherent dignity and freedom of the individual by never doing for others what they can do for themselves and thus enabling individuals to have the most possible discretion in the affairs of their lives. (See: Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, ## 185ff.; Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 1883)
And Pope Benedict writes:

re: The Ruse!!!!
Here is a question cubbies, How can the Vatican endorse the ClownBamaCare when there is tax money being channeled to Abortions???? Come church, Stand up and fight for what is right and stand aginst this you when time is over and you stand before the God of creation and say yes Lord I was for killing the unborn-say hello to Pergatory!! If you can't pull the no lever in 2010 and 2012 then your are part of the problem

Carlos !

Whether The Jew , Burt Prelutsky or The Catholic , Joseph Martino ,The Bishop of Scranton ,there is an effort to silence Conservative voices.

So , We Tea Party Rebels Are In Rebellion !

Help Us to Write "The Contract From America "

http://www.contractfromamerica.com/Idea.aspx



I TOO AM A CATHOLIC
And I applaud Mr. Hill in his appraisal of the statement by the Catholic bishops.
They really do have it only partially right.
They need someone with the ability to truly dissect Obamacare and see it like it is.
An evil attempt to take over and destroy the best healthcare system in the world.

The Bishop’s message on Notre Dame
implies that you can look at a person’s attributes in a vacuum by embracing those qualities that are admirable and simply ignoring the ones that are reprehensible. Would the Bishop’s have invited Hitler to speak by saying that he was not invited because of his stance on Jews but because of the way he had organized the economy in Germany?

If an individual practices and advances acts against humanity that are murderous, then paying homage to that person, for any reason, is endorsing those same acts.

The Bishop’s hands are covered with the blood of millions of slaughtered babies. Maybe they can ignore it, but God certainly won’t.

The Bishops need to read Henry Hazlitt
The error or fallacy in economic understanding is not looking at the consequence of a policy over all individuals (and groups) over a long term. Any government solution will make the problem worse for more people over time. The solution is less government and more liberty and freedom for individuals. The market would resolve the malinvestments if ever given the opportunity. Prices are higher and supplies are lower since 1965 because of the governments interference.

Government is not the solution. Government is the problem. SSDD.

Hal

The Catholic Bishops also approve of Live Birth.

How do you reconcile your giddiness at Fetal Slaughter with that of Christian Doctrine?


Warped Sicko.

doofuss! Now who's the drama queen?

HA! YOU got the unanimous vote for that title!

Congratulation! You are wearing your crown to all public events, aren't you?



He Warns Us ...

"Together with the victory of the revolution, though, Marx's fundamental error also became evident. He showed precisely how to overthrow the existing order, but he did not say how matters should proceed thereafter. He simply presumed that with the expropriation of the ruling class, with the fall of political power and the socialization of means of production, the new Jerusalem would be realized. Then, indeed, all contradictions would be resolved, man and the world would finally sort themselves out. Then everything would be able to proceed by itself along the right path, because everything would belong to everyone and all would desire the best for one another. Thus, having accomplished the revolution, Lenin must have realized that the writings of the master gave no indication as to how to proceed. True, Marx had spoken of the interim phase of the dictatorship of the proletariat as a necessity which in time would automatically become redundant. This “intermediate phase” we know all too well, and we also know how it then developed, not ushering in a perfect world, but leaving behind a trail of appalling destruction."

BENEDICT XVI (the Pope)

Secular press
non Catholics and Catholics who only read secular press know only what they want you to know. You ONLY hear about the bishops(or mostly anyway) who support Obama and his socialist agenda. Non Catholics think they know how Catholic people are living their lives but they only see what they WANT to see. A friend once said she didn't really believe I was a Christian because I didn't preach to her about Christ. She thought she knew. She didn't know. She didn't know because I didn't go around saying OH LOOK WHAT I DID!!! LOOK HOW WONDERFULL I AM!!
Knowbody knows the heart and mind of anyone else. Those who judge them will be judged as harshly.

Austin
Gosh what a lying drama queen. It appears the Catholic Bishops disagree with your anti-human approach to Catholicism

Bill ... Quit making Sense!

'Former' Townhall columnist Burt Prelutsky (a Jew) ratted out the Liberal Jewish groups, and exposed the Muslim Imams.

Townhall sent him packing - without explanation!

But for some reason, Catholics are fair game???

Well, at least we know Townhall is not Fox News:

Fair and Balanced.

marjon
"Anyone ever hear a sermon based upon 1 Samuel 8:10-21 where God explains what a king will do?" I gave a sermon every year on this section of the Bible. When I fill in for vacationing pastors, I still do. Samuel warns the assembled people what having a king and a regular government would mean. They choose a king because they think it will give them prestige and increased military power. Israel was originally governed by judges, people recognized for their fairness and wisdom, who would convene court to judge any lawbreaking or private dispute and resolve it on the spot. When they weren't judging, they didn't have any authority.

Duh Stux !

U-3 Unemployment under OVooDoo !

February : 8.1 Percent

March : 8.5 Percent

April : 8.9 Percent

May : 9.4 Percent

June : 9.5 Percent

July : 9.4 Percent

August : 9.7 Percent

September : 9.8 Percent

The U-6 Unemployment is now 17 Percent and Climbing ,as well.

Stats don't lie
It has been shown statistically that Christians,even those that are themselves poor, give more to charities than non
christians.

Vincent
I have never been to Europe, but my observation is that in general, they are more socially "progressive" than the U.S. which is accomodated by the ever-compromising priests and bishops who fail to clearly articulate the tenets of gospel. It is hard to be passionate about nothing in particular.

However, there are many areas of the world where the Church is growing rapidly - in predominantly non-christian countries, no less.

Styx: No, he was warning about YOU and

people LIKE YOU coming to their door next year.


No Stux !

They're Hiring Public School Teachers !

Vincent
" Free Market Capitalism has proven to be the best system for increasing the welfare of the common man.


Yes, I visited a parking lot yesterday that was filled with once middle-class families now living out of their cars and begging for money. I wish you could have been there to remind them how unbridled capitalism has improved their lives.

another example of evil government
ep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) is warning Americans to look out for the "rapists and child molesters" he says will be coming to their doors next year thanks to the U.S. government.

Oh, wait, is he saying that the government is hiring Catholic Priests as census takers?

Thou shall not steal.
I have never understood how any Christian can support state redistribution of wealth.
Christ told the rich man he had to voluntarily give up his wealth and follow Him.
Anyone ever hear a sermon based upon 1 Samuel 8:10-21 where God explains what a king will do?

Thou shall not steal.
I have never understood how any Christian can support state redistribution of wealth.
Christ told the rich man he had to voluntarily give up his wealth and follow Him.
Anyone ever hear a sermon based upon 1 Samuel 8:10-21 where God explains what a king will do?

Church likes the downtrodden
And wants to keep them that way, just like the Democrats. They want a dependent constituency, in this case spirtual dependence, but keeping them poor helps. So they support socialist economic policies. Ironically enough, just like with our Democratic legislators, the Church leaders live in luxury (though only the males - nuns must work for their entire lives) and are supported by the poor.

The difference between the Democrats and the Church, is that participation and contributions to the church are voluntary. Taxes are not voluntary.


Pope Benedict Ain't A Liberal !

The current Pope, Benedict XVI, has long been known as an opponent of certain types of liberation theology, and issued several condemnations of tendencies within it while head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith .

An apology
I just looked over what I wrote, and I just wanted to apologize to anyone I might have offended. I definitely painted with too broad a brush in saying, "American bishops are a disgrace to the Catholic faith." And it could easily have been taken out of context.

What I'm referring to is the perception that SOME OF THEM are compromising their principles to pander to a tyrannical leftist agenda. My question was more focused on that perception. Of course I know good Catholic bishops, and should have chosen my words with a little more care.

Carlos !

They ripped The Catholic Church on Illegal Invaders from Mexico ,but said nothing about the 20 Jewish Groups who backed Amnesty and coddling The Illegals.

They tore up The Catholic Church for The Sex Abuse Scandal ,yet won't go after the ongoing and many times greater Sex Abuse in The American Public School System.

They must think that American Catholics don't see the selective agenda and double standard.

Quick Revision
I need to retract the use of the word "moderate." It is not moderate to support statist policies, as they have historically been shown to lead to universal misery and tyranny. Free Market Capitalism has proven to be the best system for increasing the welfare of the common man.

Taking the average between a good and bad system is not being "moderate," it is being foolish.

Lulu or anyone else willing to answer
If you're still here I have a question:

You say that American priests/bishops are a disgrace to the Catholic Church. I can believe that; the philosophy of the current pope seems to contradict their pandering... though this is just my impression, I don't know enough about the subject to debate it, other then what I see in the news.

Anyway, if they are a disgrace to the Catholic faith, that does raise a question. I don't know if this is true with Catholicism specifically, but general church attendance is significantly lower in Europe then America. What do you think accounts for this difference? Are the bishops in Europe more dogmatic, and if so, do you think this significantly affects attendance?

Clearly in my case, their moderate positions have made me unwilling to participate in the church... but what do you think of the overall trend?

What barriers did BHO overcome?
I disagree with Hill's statement that Barack Hussein overcame a racial barrier. He's never faced a barrier in his life. He's had more opportunity that I have, and I'm a middle class white kid. Now, you could make the case that someone like Malcom X overcame the hurdles of racism. But not BHO. In fact, his background fits the pattern for most Leftists in this country. Most Leftists didn't come from poor backgrounds, lacking access to opportunity, but rather, came from comfortable homes, where one or either parents worked, were able to go to school and enjoy the benefits of a free market. That underscores the irony of their position-they hate the very society that provided them the opportunity to hate it in the first place (see Michael Moore's movie, if you can stand it, for another example of this phenomenon).

Bill

Townhall doesn't allow the dissing of Islam. That ended with the removal of Burt Prelutsky.

And as far as Pro-Obama Rabbis ... Good Point!


Binc, Appreciate
your clarification. Too many - Catholics included, make uneducated, arrogant pronouncements about the Church. In my opinion, to know the Church (Body of Christ) is to love it.

It's Called Subsidiarity
The principle of subsidiarity- "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good." In short,the Church teaches that excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative, and should be guarded against. There are many American Bishops, priests, religious and laity who understand and promote this Catholic Church teaching. Many others have been deluded by arguments for "social justice". It must be understood that the Catholic Church is made up of people who are subject to the same misunderstandings concerning her teachings as is anyone else. We are also subject to the same temptations as is anyone else. My only bit of advice to anyone, Catholic, ex-Catholic and non-Catholic who would challenge the Church about anything is to first learn what the Church actually teaches, rather than rely on scurrilous rumor and innuendo. President Obama has proven to be quite adept at pitting Catholics against each other, and others against the Catholic Church.

Jesus cared
He was anti-establishment, when the poor suffered. He was faithful to the intent of Jewish Law, but disgusted with hypocritical use of it.
He was against theft, not legitimate taxes.
It seems all of the ten commandments are very relevant to our present problems. People who write this off need to re-read them.
His kingdom was not of this world.
The Founding Fathers were, more than not, personally acquainted and respectful of Him, regardless of generations of re-writing of our history.
Where to start fixing things? Look in the mirror.

One Pope, Two Churches

It's kinda like the Republican Party.

We have a gaggle of phonies: Elitist, Social-Justice, Pro-Abortion, Pro-Homosexual, Atheists.

And then we have those of True Faith.

And just like America as a whole, the first group is a small minority, who have connived their way to the offices of authority, stepping on and cheating the good-hearted along the way.

Simple enough, eh?


Step one is already accomplished .....
charitable deductions will be non-deductible.
Step two .... no tax exempt organizations. Let the church pay its fair share to aid the emperor
in his goal of social justice through financial manipulation.
That will take some of the zeal from the fuits and nuts in the church.

Hey Austin Baby !

Some more Agenda Driven Selective Indignation again at The Catholic Church.

Let's See Ya Work Out On Rabbis and Imans ,Ya Punk !

Respect
Hally, I said "many if not most" and I do have a great deal of respect for all who actually live their beliefs. I'm not a Catholic but do certainly recognize the Churches moral stance and am disappointed when it caves to liberalism. However, I don't respect hypocrisy and that includes those evangelicals that are caught with their pants down so to speak along with those that I consider to be cafeteria Catholics.

Bishop for Kennedy, Palosi...Policies
As a catholic, I watched as the bishops supported Kennedy, Kerry, Polosi, Dodd....
Kennedy annulments..

They support ILLEGAL aliens and other liberal policies that hollywood embrace.
I don't know where their moral compass is anymore.

Excommunicate Pelosi/ Kerry for starters
The Bishops should move to excommunicate all Catholic legislators that support abortion in this sham of a bill, also designed to kill off seniors by denying/rationing care by decimating Medicare--PERIOD. The likes of her highness Pelosi and the obnoxious Kerry should be the first to suffer that humiliation. They are phony Catholics who use their "religion" for political purposes only. They both believe the Church is wrong about abortion--how arrogant is that?

FINAL WORD ON BO'S NOBEL PRIZE
What would have been more shocking than President Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize is what the Nobel Committee would have done if he had lost the election to McCain.

Click my name and read this very probable and shocking scenario for yourself.

Slavery
Forcing A to pay B's medical bills is involuntary servitude or permanent part-time slavery. Voluntary charity is also far more effective in helping the poor people that liberals maintain they care about while passing laws that create so many problems for them.

Capitalism
is the best system for doing God's work. Wealth is good when used for good. Socialism is a system that forces justice by being unjust to those who produce. A system that redistributes wealth stifles production which results in less profit to be shared with those in need - whether the sharing is forced (taxes) or voluntary (charity). Jesus gave us, not Caesar, the responsibility of caring for the poor.

balanced is off balance...and silly, too
Balanced says, "None of them, however, had a problem with George Bush proclaimed that he was chosen by God to lead us into Iraq and murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people (far more than Saddam ever did)."

Hope you're getting paid for all those strawmen you keep building........

People on the right, LIKE people on the left, overwhelmingly supported our entry into Iraq because virtually everyone thought there were WMDs.

This is why the Democratic Congress voted unanimously to go into Iraq.

No one did this light-heartedly.

When it was discovered that there were no WMDs,a split took place. One side wanted to bail and leave the folks to the aftermath.Another side felt that we needed to stay in order to prevent another "kiling fields" to take place. Others fell in the middle.

Your comments are simply juvenile and silly and are more a reflection of the ugliness of your thought-world.

Mr. Hill didn't do his homework this tim
Here is an exerpt from 2 Catholic Bishops
"...No Catholic in good conscience can disregard these fundamental moral principles, although there can and likely will be vigorous debate about their proper application.
I. The Principle of Subsidiarity: Preamble to the Work of Reform
This notion that health care ought to be determined at the lowest level rather than at the higher strata of society, has been promoted by the Church as “subsidiarity.” Subsidiarity is that principle by which we respect the inherent dignity and freedom of the individual by never doing for others what they can do for themselves and thus enabling individuals to have the most possible discretion in the affairs of their lives. (See: Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, ## 185ff.; Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 1883)
And Pope Benedict writes:

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person -every person -needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Deus Caritas Est #28)

II. Principle of the Life and Dignity of the Human Person: Driving Force for Care, and Constitutive Ground of Human Justice...

Most Reverend Joseph F. Naumann
Most Reverend Robert W. Finn
"

government charity
One hears about Government as an instrument of Christian charity from secular liberals all the time, but unfortunately from Priests as well. So Peter and Paul traveled to Rome to foster more bread and circuses?

binc
if all the Catholics you know are hypocrites, then I suggest you elevate your standards of association. All Catholics are human - from the Pope, down. The fact that the integrity of the Church has remained constant for 2000 years despite the foibles and intereference of human frailty suggests that a Higher Power is running the show. There are many devout Catholics, and there are holy priests and bishops - unfortunately, the media is only interested in the dissenters who condone their liberal (evil) agenda. The Catechism - completely compatible with Scripture - explains the Church that Christ established.

Jesus was a liberal?
This changes everything for me. Now I can be sexually liberated and lie about stuff I can now be free to engage in, like using the government to steal from my fellow man and not feel guilty about it. I feel sooo free. Does this mean that some ancient conservative put all that stuff about judgment and hell in His mouth in the bible ? sounds like a good enough explanation to me. A very liberating one. Seriously: read The Church and the Market by Woods, Faith and Liberty by Chafuen, The Victory of Reason by Stark for an easy to read overview of actual catholic economic history.

TeeHall
People like Ted Kennedy, Catholics for choice and the like. I wish they would leave the Catholic Church and start their own.
It is very confusing, I know, but you are confusing The Church with the people. The Church is the Presence of Jesus Christ. The rest is as nothing.
The people of the Church disagree as they do in any organization.
The goals are the same but how to get there is different. Also the secular media has convinced many that to vote their conscience in wrong. The old "I don't believe it's right but I have no right to push my religion on someone else." If they truely believed that it was a baby being killed in the case of abortion they couldn't do it. Otherwise they would be no better than the Germans who stood by and did nothing while millions of Jews were murdered.

Unbalanced
The idiot claims "Falwell produces porn?"

Where is your evidence? That should be taken off this thread, because it is libelous.

Putz.

Circumventing God's laws
Having grown up literally surrounded by Catholics, I've noticed that many, if not most, do what's in their best interests regardless of what their church says. I believe that it has something to do with confessing to a man wearing black robes that absolves them of their sins. Talk about a handy loophole.

The Bishops' main thrust...
...should be in protecting their hospitals.They will not permit abortion to be performed in any of their hospitals,to the point of shutting them down before they do so.The country would be hard pressed in medical care if some judge somewhere forces Catholic hospitals to do so.

Can you say LONG waiting lines to get routine care?

Not Just Abortion
Not just abortion: infanticide.

That's where Odumbo's Hospital in Chicago deliberately allowed infants - which had been chemically forced into early delivery by oxytocin - were left to die. In some cases, alone and in a dark, dirty room.

Now that's change you can believe in!

His wife, Michelle Odumbo, is no innocent party in all this: she was out championing partial birth abortion, claiming only "right-wing Republicans" opposed the suctioning of a baby's brain from it's living skull.

She is just as much a wretch as Odumbo, and the Catholic wimping and waffling over these two monsters means yet another accomodation of evil at it's most obvious.

Perhaps the theme of the movie "The Mission" describes it best?

Encyclical
sorry

Does It Have A Position?
For a non-Catholic it is difficult to appreciate the position of the Catholic church and its leaders. As a group it says one thing and the leaders do another. How can anyone rationally explain the position of the Church and its leaders and Ted Kennedy? A life-long friend of a Bishop or two, or three, while pushing legislation that is for abortion? Has that been explained to church-goers by priests? Do priests advise their money-paying flocks to oppose pro-abortion legislation?

To those who left the Church
If you left the Church for any reason other than you stopped believing in true presence of Christ in the Eucharist I'm so sorry for you.
I don't follow the priests and bishops. I look to the writings of my Pope and the catechism of the church. Were do the protestants go when they disagree? They splinter off and make a new church.
I believe in the Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.
I would not leave my Lord for a bunch of bickering bishops.

Subsidairity
Lulu
It's called Subsidairity: Matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least-centralized competent authority and that we respect the inherent dignity and freedom of the individual by never doing for others what they can do for themselves and thus enabling individuals to have the most possible discretion in the affairs of their lives. Subsidairity is a concept that traces back to St. Augustine in the fifth century but was first articulated by Pope Pius XI in 1931. Envyvlical Quadragesimo Anno.

RANDY
You can find just as many biblical quotes that prove Jesus was a liberal, and where God commanded that we take care of the poor among us.

And, as I listen to the Christian right rail against all handouts and against gov't interference, I rarely hear them consider the possiblity that God is working through politicians who would like to help the poor.

None of them, however, had a problem with George Bush proclaimed that he was chosen by God to lead us into Iraq and murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people (far more than Saddam ever did).

Interesting, to say the least.

Another Catholic's response
"Universal health care" and "providing good wages for the poor" are not as important to the Catholic Church, historically, as fighting against abortion. The Didache, one of the earliest writings of the Catholic Church, opposed abortion because it is murder. Likewise, Father Jeremias Dreschel's HELIOTROPIUM argues that "because the sound man trusts in his health, the wise in his widom, and because the poor man hopes to be supported by the rich, and the weak by the powerful, therefore, God, in the perfection of His wisdom, frequently removes all these, that, when the props on which we used to rest are gone, we may learn to rest on God alone." He also wrote that "Labour stimulates the best of men. Whatever object of beauty we anywhere behold was laboroiusly fashioned by those who were ill-supplied with money, and who therefore were obliged to sell their labours."

Hill
"If the Bishops took more seriously the Church’s teaching on the virtue of free markets, and the immorality and devastation brought about by economic redistribution, they would find plenty more to dislike about Obamacare, specifically, but also Obamanomics, generally."

Mr. Hill, I suggest you read the following. Heck you only need to read the first paragraph:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124697677067906001.html

"ROME -- Pope Benedict XVI issued a rare papal critique of the global economic crisis Tuesday, calling for a "true world political authority" charged with exercising greater oversight of financial markets."

By and large, the Catholic church does NOT care about markets or the pursuit of material wealth or worldly possessions. They exist to pursue God's kingdom by ensuring everyone is treated justly and performs their moral duties. Their position on abortion certainly gives them a natural inclination to lean towards the GOP, but that does not mean that they will buy into a right-wing economic philosophy. They do prohibit theft through the Ten Commandments, but they say nearly nothing about governmental redistribution of wealth, with the exception of John Paul II, who is hardly the same thing as Biblical evidence.

Note to Catholic Bishops:
One cannot speak of Catholic Bishops and not recognize that most of them are of an age to have been educated when education had been taken over by dunces like Bill Ayers. They ,the bishops, are not responsible adults. Anything that smacks of 60s liberalism is Gospel for them. They are a sorry lot.

Warping and bending Church teaching is what they excel at.

They consider Obama, an "inspiring leader who has overcome a racial barrier". I should think it would be quite plain just who had overcome a racial barrier, that would be the millions of white Americans who voted for Obama.

Money is too important
I am a practicing Catholic with a degree from a Catholic College. Unfortunately, college education is too concerned about money and great physical facilities and outstanding salaries and perks. Too many Bishops want good material items for themselves also. It would be nice if Catholic Leaders would focus on scripture and theological teachings more than the win lose record of the basketball team or how nice their office is.

Vincent
the Bishops are not the Church. There are fabulous priests, nuns, and laity. American Bishops are the shame of the Church worldwide.

Most should be removed at the very least.

And PB look it up Church teaching is against such things as socialism. I can't remember what it is called but essentially the teaching is that there must be localism not distant centralized governance -- which explains how the American Bishops and many Cardinals get a way with being so bad.

For the other questioners the Church was horribly corrupted in the 1960's and certain orders of priests and even diocese are still corrupted they subscribe to liberation theology and other philosophies that are darn close to heresy. Seek conservative parishes, diocese, and a priest under 40 and the Church will not remotely be similar to what the Bishops do and say.

American Bishops are a worldwide embarrasment to the Church.

I left
the Catholic Church when my Diocese didn't see a problem with what Madalyn Murray O'Hair was doing...after all, it was only the KJV that was being read in schools.

economic concerns
"If the Bishops took more seriously the Church’s teaching on the virtue of free markets, and the immorality and devastation brought about by economic redistribution...."

Huh? In 12 years of Catholic schooling, I never heard any reference made to 'the virtue of free markets' in a religion class.

I was with Hill until he hit that note. Agreed, the bishops and Notre Dame have acted shamefully vis-a-vis abortion. But as I recall John Paul II was 'eloquently' appalled by the materialism and the 'culture of death' in the West. Economics was not his chief concern. Nor should it be the bishops'.

Priests = moral compass?
The way I understand it, I have been granted by GOD with inalienable rights. Where do these "priests" imagine they have the authority to collude with the government to strip me of my economic freedom?

Obama is willing to murder infants in a deranged pursuit of "social justice" between the sexes. The fact that such a degenerate low-life would be invited to speak at Notre Dame only strengthens my hesitation to be confirmed as a Catholic. There is now way in h*ll I'll go through with it now; associating myself with these cowards would be a disgrace.

Harmony
"Are these people really that stupid?"

Through the centuries, is it accurate to say that bishops, archbishops and cardinals have determined rules for the laity? Where did it originate that Catholics must attend Mass on all Sundays and Holydays (which differ depending on the country)? Or else, they will go to hell, just to mention one requirement.

The Catholic bishops who demand that Americans must pay the expenses of illegals who break our laws, just by crossing our borders, encourage socialism. America's greatness was never based on socialism and it will be our downfall.

Although I was baptized and attended Catholic schools for twelve years, I've questioned it's credibility for a number of years.

I realize I may be very wrong.




AS A ROMAN CATHOLIC
I am constantly appalled by the statements of Catholic Bishops. Are these people really that stupid? A government cannot do "charitable works". Only individuals can extend charity to others. It is the efforts of individuals that reflect God's presence in this world.
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