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Wednesday, March 05, 2008
Walter E. Williams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberty Versus Socialism
by Walter E. Williams
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A fortnight ago, I wrote about Mississippi Legislature House Bill 282 that would have imposed fines or revoked licenses of food establishments that served obese people. Fortunately, the measure died in committee. State Rep. Ted Mayhall, one of the bill's sponsors, justified it by saying that he wanted to bring attention to the fact that "Obesity makes people more susceptible to diabetes, which puts a further strain on the state's financially-challenged Medicaid program."

His sentiments were expressed by quite a few readers who didn't necessarily support such a measure but opined that if a particular behavior or lifestyle imposed costs on others through tax-supported health care, the government had a right to intercede.

Similar justification was used for laws requiring helmets for motorcyclists and bicyclists. After all, if one exercises his liberty to ride without a helmet, and has an accident and becomes a vegetable, society has to bear the expense of taking care of him. The fact that an obese person becomes ill, or a cyclist has an accident, and becomes a burden on taxpayers who must bear the expense of taking care of him, is not a problem of liberty. It's a problem of socialism where one person is forced to take care of another. There is no moral argument that justifies using the coercive powers of government to force one person to bear the expense of taking care of another. If that person is too resolute in his refusal to do so, what is the case for imposing fines, imprisonment or death?

You say, "Death! Aren't you exaggerating, Williams?" Say he tells the agents of Congress that he'll pay his share of the constitutionally mandated functions of government but refuse to pay the health costs of a sick obese person or a cyclist who becomes a vegetable, what do you think the likely course of events will be? First, he'd be threatened with fines, imprisonment or property confiscation. Refusal to give in to these government sanctions would ultimately lead to his being shot by the agents of Congress.

Forcing one person to bear the burden of health care costs for another is not only a moral question but a major threat to personal liberty. Think about all the behaviors and lifestyles that can lead to illness and increase the burden on taxpayers. A daily salt intake exceeding 6 grams can lead to hypertension. A high-fat diet and high alcohol intake can also lead to diabetes. A sedentary lifestyle can lead to several costly diseases such as hypertension, diabetes and heart failure.

There are many other behaviors that lead to a greater health care burden, but my question is how much control over your life you are willing to give government in the name of reducing these costs? Would you want government to regulate how much salt you use? What about government deciding how much fat and alcohol you consume? There are immense beneficial health effects of a daily 30-minute aerobic exercise. Would you support government-mandated exercise?

You might argue that it's none of government's business how much fat, salt or alcohol a person consumes, even if it has adverse health care cost implications. I'd ask: Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to helmet laws and proposed obesity laws? Last year, The Child Nutrition Promotion and School Lunch Protection Act was introduced in Congress. It's a measure to prevent schools from serving "junk foods" such as pizza, burgers and French fries. If the government protects children from "unhealthy" meals at school, would you want government to also protect them from unhealthy meals at home?

When I was 14 or 15 years old, smelling myself, I thought I could take over the house. My mother told me that as long as she was paying the bills, I was going to do what she said. That's great for a parent/child relationship, but do we want the same relationship between government and its citizens?

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About The Author
Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics and is the author of More Liberty Means Less Government: Our Founders Knew This Well.
 
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Excellent Article as Always
Look at the direction the UK seems to be heading. Really, they have no choice, but is this the directions Americans should embark upon?

http://tinyurl.com/2cxhbd

For those who don't want to read the whole article:

"To commemorate the 60th anniversary of the founding of the NHS, Gordon Brown plans to introduce a "constitution" setting out the rights and responsibilities of our healthcare system.

What this seems to amount to in practice are the Government's rights to refuse treatment, and the patient's responsibilities to live up to what the state decides are model standards."

Yep
Another goodun. Keep up the good work Dr. It often seems like those we say such things to just get a blank stare on their faces but, it bears repeating.




Williams asks,
"That's great for a parent/child relationship, but do we want the same relationship between government and its citizens?

Unfortunately, (and obviously) way too many in America today are answering that question with a YES!

On the Money Again
Once again Mr. Williams shows why he is my favorite commentator on Townhall.com.

It is absolutely true that as long as government is paying the bills, they have the right to make decisions in our lives. Each step toward socialism is a step away from liberty. As they say: he who pays the piper calls the tune.

I heartily agree...
...but does it do any good? I hear the talk and read the articles and make comments and write my congress-critters and vote and let my voice be heard. However, it appears nothing (except an increase in my taxes) ever changes. What can we do to force the issues we believe in? That is the real question!

Mississippi Barbecue
Basically, Mississippi state Rep. Ted "I like my barbecue without trans-fat" Mayhall took his cues from the New York state law ban on trans fats.
Everybody and his brother knows that good southern cuisine is immersed in a trans-fatty tradition if you will. It's why we know the difference between southern fried chicken and all other fried chickens or ribs or pork chops.
All you have to say is southern and a specific taste, texture and quality comes to mind.
I'm sorry if the chef at the State government employees cookout slipped some fatback fried bacon on Rep. Mayhall double cheese burger, they were just trying to be Southernly, niceness wrapped in barbecue that's all.

We are steeped in socialism here and
it is getting worse every day. The sheeple have learned to vote themselves bread and circuses and it is only a matter of time before the end.

Socialism has been shown to be a failure and the beginnings of every dictatorship in the 20th century.

Stop the Programs
"Obesity makes people more susceptible to diabetes, which puts a further strain on the state's financially-challenged Medicaid program."

The writer mentions safety helmets and food. How about seat belts and cigarettes? What will be next?

The hypocrites who are constantly dabbling in the business of others have failed to take care of those things which are constitutionally mandated, such as protecting the country from illegal invasion.

Stop the damn Medicaid program! And stop all other such 'take care of your neighbor' giveaways. People can take care of themselves, or not. That is their right.

Blah blah blah
So much talk, so many cheers! But every single one of you finds some way to justify furthering socialism. Every single one of you are talked into it by the media. By the very people writing on this site, by the very "conservative talk show hosts" you listen to. You are told it isn't the same thing, but it is.

Especially 'social conservatives' *SOCIAL* conservatives!! Wow...

Socialism is well embedded in American politics and culture, and most people (including many of you banging your chests against it) are simply too effing stupid to really understand what it looks like.

GREAT ARTICLE
The libsquirts scream "Give us bread and circuses" as the liberal elites work to screw them deeper and harder.

Check the NUMBER ONE BLOG on TH for TWO serious gut punches to the flabby gut of the leftists. Yep, one of them involves Chappaquiddick Teddy and the corrupt and verminous Kennedy Klan.

Enough is enough
Another reason to get me to the voting booth this year. Much as I am disenchanted with all of the candidates, I have to vote against the government mandated health care. This will be the first iteration and, like the other entitlements, it will have to be "tinkered" with trying to get to that utopian version that is unattainable. Once in place, an entitlement never goes away.

This is much like the attack on smoking which started small and now has grown to where it is difficult to find anywhere indoors to light up. Nobody asked the small business owners whether they wanted to join the "smoke free" crowd.

By the by, I haven't heard much from Lilly. Could be my fault since I don't always get much time in the blogosphere. Much as she sends me reaching for my bottle of Lotrel (just blood pressure med) I do find an odd enjoyment in her posts. Hope she is okay.

Yes,Vindex...
...we are too stupid,but fortunetly,we have you too set us straight.What would all of us dummies do without you?

Vindex
I like the United States. Every day is a holiday, every meal is a feast and every paycheck is a fortune.
Lighten up, You are going to force yourself into an early grave.

Thank God for Dr. Williams
Give'em hell I say. I used to use the same analogy re how ultimately even jaywalking laws are backed by force. Death if one resists. Right on, right on. A dose of truth and a breath of fresh air. WHO IS LISTENING THOUGH?

Come to Kanukistan
For those who think a world run by meddling grannies is utopia, come up here to Kanukistan and live. Not visit -- you cannot learn about a country by staying in an American hotel and calling down for every comfort. LIVE here. Have half your paycheque removed by force to fling in handsful out the windows of speeding limousines! Live in 339 square feet that you paid $300,000 for (plus enormous *transfer taxes*) in a highrise jammed next to other highrises! Jam yourself into overcrowded trains, buses and streetcars (which today are not running due to a massive Global Warming snowstorm and a train derailment) or try to drive (the city has run out of road salt with 2 months of winter to go) and when you go to the monopoly stores (Canadians are frightened of choices) buy whatever they have instead of what you want...and if you get sick, prepare to spend 16 hours in the ER because you have not been able to find a family doctor -- and if you have one, prepare to wait three weeks to see him. And walk along with your head down and your shoulders slumped, whining *WHAT CAN YOU DOOOOOOOO?*

If you really want to live in Nanny State Utopia, its right next door. No need to destroy America to get the life sucked out of you. Come to Kanukistan.

Walter
"...I'd ask: Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to helmet laws and proposed obesity laws?"

Years ago Germany had an interesting seatbelt law. If you weren't wearing a seatbelt you footed the whole medical bill, if a "vegatable" all your assets were forefit as I recall. Would this be better?

"It's a measure to prevent schools from serving "junk foods" such as pizza, burgers and French fries. If the government protects children from "unhealthy" meals at school, would you want government to also protect them from unhealthy meals at home?"

It all depends who pays for it. As usual you conservatives want the freedom but not the price.

hal
You wrote: "As usual you conservatives want the freedom but not the price."

I'm not sure how you arrived at that one. I think the conservative position would be you have the freedom, and you pay the price yourself. As opposed to you have the freedom and the government pays the price.

I think part of the problem
with that last statement comes from the fact that so many of today's youth have never really lived with imposed discipline.

Parents often give kids whatever they want, or if they try to impose rules, those rules end up broken and the penalties are never imposed. Hence, young people end up believing there are never really consequences to actions. They think "Well, they may SAY there will be punishment, but I know they don't mean it."

They think government will be the same way.

This is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!

"If the government protects children from "unhealthy" meals at school, would you want government to also protect them from unhealthy meals at home?"

Absolutely, categorically, without question, NO!!!

It should be the school districts that madate "healthy lunches" for school chidren, but if it takes the government... with our tax dollars... to accomplish that, then so be it.

HOWEVER, the government does not... I repeat.. DOES NOT have any right to come into my home and tell me what to and what not to feed my children.

I don't understand what is so difficult to understand. The Constitution guaratees our freedom...




Wrong Answer
Hal, we conservatives want the freedom because we are willing to pay the price. I prefer to take care of my family myself, even if that means I have to resort to hunting and gathering. I prefer to provide for my own health care, even if that means I have to resort to wild herbs to do it.

I personally do not want the government in any way, shape, or form interfering with my life.

"It's a measure to prevent schools from serving "junk foods" such as pizza, burgers and French fries. If the government protects children from "unhealthy" meals at school, would you want government to also protect them from unhealthy meals at home?" - If The Government is providing the health care, then it is in The Government's best interest to control every aspect of our lives, to keep the bills down. Give The Government control of our health care, they take control of our diet, exercise regime, habits.

Hal
To answer your first question, yes. That would be better. Better to bear the cost of your own stupidity than to charge it to someone else.

This all goes back to reverse Darwinism. I believe that we are making ourself as a species dumber and weaker. We value self-esteem rather than accomplishment. We speak disdainfully about "Meritocracy." "Let's keep little Jimmy back so that little Harry can keep up." BS!

If you choose to participate in a hazardous activity, you should bear the costs of the activity. If you choose to drive without a seatbelt, it is your fault. I shouldn't be held financially liable for your stupidity.

Okay! Here we go yet AGAIN!!!
Overweight or old? No medical care for you!!!!!

The doctors in the UK are now saying, "Don't treat the old and unhealthy...."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/0 1/27/nhs127.xml

By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:09am GMT 28/01/2008

"Doctors are calling for NHS treatment to be withheld from patients who are too old or who lead unhealthy lives. Smokers, heavy drinkers, the obese and the elderly should be barred from receiving some operations, according to doctors, with most saying the health service cannot afford to provide free care to everyone."

THIS is supposed to be better health care?

EXACTLY what part of this do the liberal, wanna be socialists, NOT UNDERSTAND???

And the liberal/socialists thinks the Conservatives are mean and hateful!!!


Great Article
Too bad so many Americans disagree. So many want health care, mandatory insurance, random breathalyzer stops, etc. Liberty ? Sorry that's yesterdays news. We don't even have a major candidate promoting such an odd concept of liberty or individual sovereignty.

It's all government - all the time. At least we can still write about it on TownHall - for now.

FrmrSSGT: Actually, it should be up to

the insurance companies, not the government!

Insurance companies can add a "Contributory Negligence" clause to any policy that mandates if, for example, a person sustained injuries because of not wearing a seatbelt, or not wearing a helmet, then the policy is void.

The government has no place in this...

SunThe1
"I'm not sure how you arrived at that one. I think the conservative position would be you have the freedom, and you pay the price yourself. As opposed to you have the freedom and the government pays the price. "

Really? Why are we incurring huge debt with no attempt to even pay for it in Iraq? Who is going to reequipe the military which is being striped of equipment? No, like so many other areas you folks talk the talk but never come close to walking the walk...

Hal
Such a jerk, as always. Yes that's right, let the goverment in on everything, and pretty soon they'll be telling me which socks I must wear for the good of my feet, even if they aren't walking in my shoes.
BTW, Germany has been using three-point seat belts since 1972 and you must be daft. Insurance Companies in Germany had no such laws. Otherwise, why bother to charge people for insurance? It's not logical, Hal. And Euopeans have one thing right. Personal responsibility,period. No frivlous lawsutis like the US to avoid responsibility for being stupid.

Oh Hal!
Between you an dRober with your BDS, I don't know who is more pathetic. Do you have to go there EVERY TIME? Why, yes,how else will you get throught the day if you can't blame Bush. My bad.

Alternative
The present state of the law is that a person presenting himself for treatment at a hospital emergency room must be treated even if he cannot pay for treatment. The cost is then borne indirectly by high fees billed to insured patients, as well as by government reimbursement (using money we all have paid in taxes) to the treating facility.

Re "forcing one person to bear the medical costs of another": If I am understanding Mr Williams, this should not happen; unless a patient can pay for his treatment, he should be refused (and the law would have to be changed to allow this). The problem here is basic in setting social policy: no society will support a law that runs counter to its values. Doubtless some will be quick to say that society is not presently supporting A paying for B's treatment, but in fact this objection is heard chiefly from the right wing of our society; most do not regard taxation as theft, but as the price of living in civilization. Few would condone turning a woman in labor, a child with a broken arm, or an elderly man with pneumonia, out into the street. A few of us are that sadistic, but not all of us. Withholding medical treatment would not be supported by our society.

Vindex
What the hell are you talking about?

Clearly a student of the Robert/Lilly/Hal D. school of argumentation and debate.

Who to vote for?
Great article. If only there was some presidential candidate that agreed with limited government principles. If only there was a candidate that agreed with the substance of this article. If only there was a candidate that considered Walter Williams a good vice-presidential choice. Of course, if there was, Walter Williams probably would have previously said good things about him, like that he was one of only about 3 congressmen that the founders would even talk to.

On a side note, I've begun selling bricks that we can throw at Ron Paul supporters. They have special messages painted on them like "Get out of our party, we don't want your vote!"

Hal
The "progressive" wing of your democrat party (and there are many) believe the defense budget should be cut by another 50%.

http://cpc.lee.house.gov/index.cfm?ContentID=166&ParentID=0 &SectionID=4&SectionTree=4&Ink=b&ItemID=164

http://web.archive.org/web/20020215003619/www.dsausa.org/pc /pc.progag.html

(source credit to MyOpine)

If you really are in favor of "reequip[ing] the military" and "supporting the troops" as you constantly proclaim you are definitely in the wrong party.

Another intereting note for you...The Navy's newest ship (USS New York) was just dedicated om March 1st. Seven-and-a-half tons of steel recovered from New York City's World Trade Center was used to forge the ship's bow stem. The dedication was attended by hundreds of members from the NYPD and NYFD....and every NY state and city legislator received a personal invite. Guess how many of these "we support the troops" NY democrats actually accepted the invitation and attended the dedication? ZERO!!!

WHAT?? How did Iraq get into this???

Iraq has nothing to do with this discussion/debate except to side step the issue at hand...

Oh, wait... maybe there is....

halD is sooooo worried about how we're going to pay for the WOT, but yet he wants to ADD yet ANOTHER cost to the government... Socialized Health Care!

And, the doctors in GB are saying the health service cannot afford to provide free care to everyone. They're already selectively denying health care to groups of individuals (and halD would certainly fit into at least TWO of those categories) and that's what he thinks we should do.


Sometime ago a friend reminded me that the ONLY thing "liberals" and "logic" have in common is the letter "L."






I can see a whole new beauracracy...
rising from this.

The food police. Certain foods would become unavailable except on the black market. Imagine a man being taken down and handcuffed at the Mexican Border because he was found to have 75 pounds of flour tortillas made with **gasp** lard
in a hidden compartment in his pick-up truck. Test kits would be distributed among border agents for testing for fat and sugar content of certain foods. The resulting prosecutions would be interesting as well. During the jury selection process the prosecutor would do his/her best to ensure that no obese persons made it on the jury.

Oh Hal
"Really? Why are we incurring huge debt with no attempt to even pay for it in Iraq?"

So, do you condemn the record setting out of control spending (earmarks) coming from the dem controlled congress as well? Or, do you only condemn reckless spending when it is not your side doing it?

Anne you're wrong!!!!
"Sometime ago a friend reminded me that the ONLY thing "liberals" and "logic" have in common is the letter "L.""

They both have the letter "I" in their name as well!! This unequivocally proves that you are wrong on everything!

disclaimer: this post is not serious

Hal
Shut up about Iraq. How much money goes toward the defense department versus social and other interventionist government programs?

Quit lying, you're a liar...

To Tom the Tinker
You fear that if the government is paying our medical bills it would be empowered to make medical decisions for us and for our doctors. Tom, right now for most of us, private insurance companies are paying the bills and I assure you that they are making medical decisions for us and for our doctors. I don't like that. Do you?

Changes in the way we receive care have come down from insurance companies just in the past few years:

1) Having to report to the hospital the morning of surgery, even major surgery, instead of sleeping there the night before, as used to be the case. I chatted in a surgical waiting room with the family of an elderly woman then undergoing an 8-hour liver surgery. She lived 100 miles from the hospital and had had to get up at 3 AM to get there. The night before she had had to prep by drinking one gallon of Go-Litely laxative. Can you envision that 100-mile 3 AM trip? I call this inhuman treatment, but her insurance would not pay for the extra night in the hospital and at $800 a day she could not afford to pay out of pocket.

2) Discharge of patients the same day they have undergone major surgery (example: total mastectomy---that one made the Evening News). This practice also applied to women who have given birth until state legislatures intervened. No medical professional observes such post-surgical events as bleeding, infection, wound re-opening, or shock when the patient has left the hospital.

3) Prescriptions are changed without the doctor's permission, substituting a less-expensive drug.

4) Physicians are told how much time they may spend with a patient, what diagnostic tests they may order, and what treatment they may pursue.

5) Medications and treatments are routinely refused by insurance companies in spite of persuasive arguments by the physician and hospital. Specialist consultation is denied.


To Hal, Lilly and the like
I'm embarrased FOR you. You must have been the kids in grammar school, with really bad singing voices, who insisted on being the ones to be up singing in front of the whole school assembly.

Woody from Iowa


It's the Insurance Companies Fault!
Boo Hoo Waahh Waaahh...

Play the blame game all you want. You'll lose every time. The insurance companies are reacting to the problem. This has been caused by of a group of people who look to others for their salvation. Leeches and parasites on society have created this and many other problems. They look to us to pay for EVERYTHING. Just like other good socialist myrmidons, they feel they are ENTITLED to our earnings. Who gave them this feeling of entitlement?

Go away.


Lilly:
"Few would condone turning a woman in labor, a child with a broken arm, or an elderly man with pneumonia, out into the street."

Which is why we have private charities in this country. It's also why we have doctors who give away their services for free in order to treat people. I know the concept that people can be kind and benevolent is foreign to socialists, but it does happen.

Examples Govt controlled Health care
England been trying to make socialized medicine work since 1948. All these articles except 1 are from last year. The exception is from 2006. There are many many more if you care to look.

IT HAS TAKEN THEM 60 years to achieve this level of competency.

"One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jun/08/health.politi cs

"UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/may/10/cancercare.he alth

"Specialist stroke care 'lottery'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6634837.stm

"5,000 elderly 'killed each year' by lack of care beds"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&g rid=P8&xml=/health/2006/06/26/nold25.xml

We should trash our imperfect system that still works for the vast majority of our population for Socialized Medicine, a system that promises a hole host of new problems and no improvement in care.

BRILLIANT!!!!!

lilly again:
"Changes in the way we receive care have come down from insurance companies just in the past few years:"

These changes came from the side effects of previous government intervention, not the insurance companies. Why can't you see the vicious cycle of lawsuits and regulations that created this mess? Or do you simply refuse to see the cycle?

BRAVISSIMO!
Once again Mr. Williams, your summarization of such relevant yet profound matters is superlative!!

Yack spit, more collectivist meddling
Mr. Williams is correct. The Socialists are wrong. America needs to pull out of this collectivist death spiral but history will repeat itself and people will always learn the hard way. Pain is a harsh teacher and everyone deserves a chance to learn.
I welcome the collectivist overlords and applaud there head long, blind charge down the self destructive dead end of slavery. This will only make the following conflict that much more destructive and deeply ingrain into peoples souls just why our ancestors built this great nation in the first place.
The socialist dimwits are going to force civil war on this nation.

Big Brother
Excellent article. Seems almost everyone agrees that less government is better…me included.

Your subject is closely related to another issue dominating TH boards. Question: Should McCain be voted into power to limit the damage Obama (or Clinton) and a dominated democratic congress can do? Or should the conservative base (like some advocate) pull the plug to send a message to the GOP?

Your essay is relevant, in that those who vote the former believe we cannot undue big brother’s programs that will enviably come. Folks supporting the latter think we can recover.

I live in Italy where they have socialized medicine. Most people here have grownup under the system, so they have no reference. I can assure everyone, the socialized medicine genie will not go back into the bottle. I can think of no similar healthcare system that has returned to privatization following enactment. However, you can get quality healthcare here without waiting, but you have to pay Guido directly.

LILLY

.....What ruined the doctor patient relationship was government regulation and medical insurance ...

.....I know you are old enough to remember the old days ...when I was five I was quarantined at home with the mumps ...our doctor made house calls to treat me ...the cost? ...$10 dollars ...there was a "free" clinic where doctors and dentists donated their time a few times a week to treat the poor ...I got most of my dental work done there ...the cost? ...$3 per filling ...

.....Now I know why my grandfather used to talk about the good old days .....COLOSSUS

I don't know Hal
Hal, although I believe I'm a strong democrat, I totally agree with the other party on this issue and I believe Williams points are valid.
Here, in Illinois, for example, I've argued for the longest that once we allowed our local government to mandate seatbelts, they would add more laws constricting owners of homes and vehicles to laws that they feel protect us.

However, as much as our democratic leaders say they're protecting us, they are actually making arguments for medical agencies that contribute to their campaign. Now, years after the seatbelt law, Illinois lawmakers have outlawed driving with cell phones, smoking in restaraunts, and other assorted and privilege-invading laws. Instead of using taxpayers money to move our country toward socialism, our government should spend more time creating jobs so more American citizens can provide for themselves in times of need.

Lilly's 8:57
If they knew that there was a 100 mile trip prior to the surgery, why didn't they go the day before and overnight at a hotel? The room cost is approximately 1/3 what a hospital bed costs.

And under Canada's health care system we had a woman last year who was in labour who had to be flown over 1000 miles (from Vancouver to Edmonton) because of a shortage of beds and/or maternity professionals shortage. How often does that happen under the US system? The Canadian system is OK for emergency care (my dad's heart condition was operated on within a week of it being discovered) but not so good on longer term stuff (there was a 3 1/2 month waiting list for the follow up beyond the date the doctor gave him for when the follow-up shunt replacement was needed).

William's head in the sand again
or, "Oh no, not the motocycle helmet arguement again."

Some adults have never grown up, you know. Why do women marry the wrong man?

I'm not sure, but aren't we really talking insurance companies here, so let's forget medicaid. Don't the privatized insurance companies make us all pay for people who don't wear motorcycle helmets, figure that into their prices so tht they don't lose money?

And wht about a conflict with family values? Suppose the person who won't wear a motorcycle helmet has children, a wife, a mother and father, an employer who depends upon him.

Isn't the very bottom right of a nation the right to preserve itself (see Bill Buckley on that) and if wearing a mototcycle helmet by law is part of preserving a country then so be it?

Thought about privatizing people who don't wear motocycle helmets: Let's not make it a law tht one has to wear a helmet, but permit individuals, such as a wife, children and parents to sue the person who didn't wear the helmet for damages, if he's still alive, that is.

The bottom line is that there are ripple effects for many behaviors and Williams refuses to consider the ripples.

Elywillis
SHHHHHHHH, don't talk about people that give money to charities to help the poor, that means GASP! Christians, booooooooooooo

and Heaven**** knows that the liberals don't want us evil Christians taking over.

I hope I am saying this properly as I believe Dr. Williams said this once, paraphrasing,

"give me all my money I ever paid into Social Security and never take it from me in the future and if I die in the street at 65, its my own damn fault"

I believe the great Dr. is now in his 70's, just think how wealthy he and we all could be if the government would just leave us alone!

Socialism's
is to have as many people dependent on the government as possible. Socialist want and need a victim class. It is also a recipe for tyranny. The more things you ask or want goverenment to do for you the more control it has over you.

Knight Who Said NI
"So, do you condemn the record setting out of control spending (earmarks) coming from the dem controlled congress as well? Or, do you only condemn reckless spending when it is not your side doing it? "

PAYGO works for me too bad it doesn't for you deadbeat spendthrifts. Pay for the Iraq War now! Hmmm Maybe a special income tax on only red states?

POLMsgt
Williams would say that just as government shouldn't be involved in the decision by an individual to be fat because that causes consequences for the rest of us, Williams would also say that people should be free to ask the government for things regardless of the consequences for themselves or for other people. This would be consistent for Williams.

analogy of kids and citizens
Nice article as always.
I was taken by what you wrote.-----"That's great for a parent/child relationship, but do we want the same relationship between government and its citizens?". If you're asking me as a citizen (adult) I would say no. No one presumably wants to be told what to do whether they be 1 or 101 years old. The question seems to be in the maturity of that person. As youngsters become more responsible their partents give them more rights. Maybe the crux of the arguement is that the "citizens" need to become more responsible before they can expect to take back their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness from the people they unresponsibly gave it away to in the first place.

Hat tip to Boortz
If you squandered every opportunity for an education to end up an unemployable semi-literate loser, that's your problem, not mine. If you've destroyed your health with cigarettes and fast food ... then by what right do you demand that people who lived their lives more responsibly than you cover the cost of your medical care. You cry about your "right" to health care. You dare to claim a right to the services of another human being to correct problems you created for yourself? Further, if it is more important for you to spend your money on a cell phone, flat-screen televisions, the best new car, meals at expensive restaurants and fancy vacations than it is to spend your money on a health insurance policy .. then you should be on your own. Don't beg the government to steal from someone else so that you don't have to change your lifestyle.


Logic defeats liberalism every single time.

Obesity
"Obesity makes people more susceptible to diabetes, which puts a further strain on the state's financially-challenged Medicaid program."

Why do the public schools discourage kids from walking to school? Isn't that a good place to start?

mybrotherskeeper
"Here, in Illinois, for example, I've argued for the longest that once we allowed our local government to mandate seatbelts, they would add more laws constricting owners of homes and vehicles to laws that they feel protect us. "

See my problem is that why should I have to pay for your injuries which you wouldn't have if you wore a seat belt, didn't smoke etc... The question is where do you draw the line. The extreme left and right would regulate everything you eat or sleep with or enjoy. Where do we draw the line and how? Like if I want to buy a car with poor brakes should I be allowed to? Or if I want to ingest poison should I be allowed to? heavy questions involving serious discussion not slogans and cheap answers.

"However, as much as our democratic leaders say they're protecting us, they are actually making arguments for medical agencies that contribute to their campaign."

Actually that would be the Republicans. Inefficient healthcare helps them like medicare must pay retail for drugs etc

" Now, years after the seatbelt law, Illinois lawmakers have outlawed driving with cell phones, smoking in restaraunts, and other assorted and privilege-invading laws."

Read above. It is your neighbors not "the government"

"Instead of using taxpayers money to move our country toward socialism, our government should spend more time creating jobs so more American citizens can provide for themselves in times of need. "

Ahhh see that is exactly what the Democrats do they are the party of small business creation etc The Rs are the big business helpers

slovak/Elywillis
"give me all my money I ever paid into Social Security and never take it from me in the future and if I die in the street at 65, its my own damn fault"

See nice but you just won't quietly die in the street; you will steal rather than starve; you will elimminate your wastes in public areas; you will generally be a pest not to mention spreading sickness and disease which you will pick up as your health and resistence fail. Then when you die someone will have to clean up the filth. Now are you suggesting prison camps?? We already put many of our problems, like many mentally ill, in jail... The above is really what you and Walter are advocating

Hal's faux Concern over spending
There is a word for people like you, Hypocrite. You are quite selective in your outrage over spending. Seems you have totally ignored the out of control spending from the dem controlled congress.

"PAYGO works for me too bad it doesn't for you deadbeat spendthrifts. Pay for the Iraq War now! Hmmm Maybe a special income tax on only red states?"

They should do it for all the programs the dems have created as well? I imagine you don't mean that though, do ya. We have spent far more on those programs since there creation than we have on the war. But, of course PAYGO wouldn't apply to them would they.

We are socialist already
Why is there always someone in the crowd saying America shouldn't head in direction of some other socialist country in the world.

Where have these people been?
Do they not realize every government program is another experiment in socialism.(State run schools, a socialist program.)

We are and have been embracing socialism for many many years in America.

This is why the dollar is becoming worthless, this is why America is the largest debtor nation in the world.

Spending sprees on socialism by our liberal politicians, isn't going to solve any problems in America, in fact it will only create more problems, that will leave us weaker and further from becoming a lendor nation.

Government's survival always depends upon the next "crisis" or program that expands government just as the prior socialist program starts to crumble, therefore extending government's reach yet for another day with little or no accountability for previous and continued failures.



If we privatized education
We would have more than enough money for social security

Hal Doofus
And punitive taxation helps create small business?
How does this work in your fantasy world?

"Democrats are the party of small business creation" ha ha That has to be the most ridiculous thing I have read on any blog in years! And I destroy 'truthers' and NWO lunatics daily.

You do realize that the individual investing his own money creates jobs and prosperity. How does higher taxation from dumbocrats help make this possible?

Short answer:

You lose.....again.

Who pays the bills
"My mother told me that as long as she was paying the bills, I was going to do what she said."

We should try this. After all, we the taxpayers, pay the bills. Maybe the government should listen to us for a change.

Of course the only way to do this is to go to the polls and put the bums on unemployment.

Knight Who Said NI
"Hal's faux Concern over spending
There is a word for people like you, Hypocrite. "

LMAO looking in the mirror

"You are quite selective in your outrage over spending. Seems you have totally ignored the out of control spending from the dem controlled congress."

A mere shade of the R Congress and no I have not. They should have forced the Bush Regime to raise funds to pay for his Iraq War.

"They should do it for all the programs the dems have created as well? I imagine you don't mean that though, do ya."

Actually I do mean that

" We have spent far more on those programs since there creation than we have on the war. But, of course PAYGO wouldn't apply to them would they. "

Don't be too sure but are you alright being a dead and not paying for the Bush Regime's Iraq War? Skipping out on the debt. Who is going to pay to rebuild the military? You folks have become the very definition of deadbeats

Face it - both Dems and GOP are to blame
Federal and state governments have been growing like a cancer since FDR, and neither party has done much to stop it. Even the great Reagan could do little to slow the rising tide of the Nanny State. Today, we have the perfect storm of socialism. The Sheeple have been brainwashed to think that the government is their mother, and will take care of them regardless of their amoral, immoral and stupid choices. The Politicians know that the key to re-election is to buy votes through special interest spending and the creation of new programs (i.e., promising to take care of the sheeple regardless of their amoral, immoral and stupid choices).

The only way to reverse course (assuming it is not too late) is to: 1. restore traditional families and traditional (read Judeo-Christian) morality; 2. consume less, save more; and 3. figure out how to control greed/pride in our politicians.

Good luck . . .

We have fascism now
Socialism doesn't look too bad, and liberty would look even better.

davy c rockett
"..We are socialist already .."

You rightwing sheeple make me laugh. Do you have a clue what socialism is? Look it up. You throw around words making up meanings and sound so irrate. You used to be dangerous but now you are just laughable

"This is why the dollar is becoming worthless, this is why America is the largest debtor nation in the world."

Not so! A huge reason is runaway debt from the R controlled Congress and the Bush Regime's war in Iraq (at least two Trillion dollars with a T). You spend money and don't raise it your money is worthless...


THRadio
Chriastian values didn't build this country people wanting space, freedom and a new start did. Those folks often fled countries with your "traditional" values

Hal is less than honest.
I agree that the war in Iraq is a huge drain on our resources, and I think it is time to wind-down operations in that god-forsaken place. But do you agree that social issues are also a huge part of the problem? Take AIDS for example. There are now over 1 million HIV infected patients in the US. Another 50,000 are added each year. Annual medical costs for an AIDS patient range from $15,000 to $35,000. That translates to $15 to $35 billion annually, primarily because homosexual men insist on the "right" to engage in reckless sodomy. Unable to avoid the consequences of their stupid choices, they then demand that the nanny state pay for (or at least subsidize) their medical care and drug costs.

Hal
Poor Hal, now that the dems have power and have started showing their true colors in congress. Your only answer is to turn a blind eye to it and hope no one else notices.

So you think they should do PAYGO for all their programs hhmmm. Just like when the dems said they would put an end to earmarks and out of control spending as well?

Ha Wrote:
"They should have forced the Bush Regime to raise funds to pay for his Iraq War."

So, they failed there too. Yet you will continue to support them no matter how much they spend and lie.

Seems the dems have their fair share of Hypocrites and liars as well, along with their mind numb followers like you who will vote for them and defend them no matter how much they lie to you.


Flexible vs. Inflexible
Liberal = INFLEXIBLE. Conservative = Flexible. Life and living is about adaptability in a state of constant change/flux. The universe has an ordered chaos about it. Liberals attempt to impose order on the chaos of life, thereby negating the very essence of life, i.e., the constant struggle for meaning, beauty, individual accomplishment, freedom and individual reward. In this futile effort, the liberal begs for certitude. Laws, regulations, mandates: All attempts to remove the unknown. In this lifestyle and worldview, the liberal shows himself to be nothing more than a cringing, wretched coward. Liberals/socialists/communists desire nothing less than a return to their only experience of absolute security in an insecure world-the womb. That's their nanny-state, (womb-state) utopia. CONSERVATIVES: Wake up each day knowing the challenges ahead. We embrace them and actually challenge life back. We shout, "Bring it on!" "Give it your best shot baby!" "I might not win today's go-round, but I'll not be beaten!" Conservatives thrive on finding answers to unknowns. We don't quit. And when we find those answers that benefit us and ours, they become beneficial to all. Simply, Conservatives aren't cowards seeking to crawl back into the womb.

THRadio
"I agree that the war in Iraq is a huge drain on our resources, and I think it is time to wind-down operations in that god-forsaken place. "

It is THE major drain on our resources and devalues or currency which directly raises the price of oil which...

"But do you agree that social issues are also a huge part of the problem?"

Depends which some can actually be a huge boost ala' the WWII GI bill

"Take AIDS for example. There are now over 1 million HIV infected patients in the US. Another 50,000 are added each year. Annual medical costs for an AIDS patient range from $15,000 to $35,000."

I can't say if your numbers are correct but accepting they are what would you suggest is the alternative? Not addressing the issue spreads the disease. It is endemic in much of Africa for zero treatment

"That translates to $15 to $35 billion annually, primarily because homosexual men insist on the "right" to engage in reckless sodomy. Unable to avoid the consequences of their stupid choices, they then demand that the nanny state pay for (or at least subsidize) their medical care and drug costs. "

See you are so out of touch...the fastest growing segment is older hetrosexuals and mmost HIV transmission is thru needles. In Africa AIDS is a hetrosexual disease. What do you suggest be done


Knight Who Said NI
"..Your only answer is to turn a blind eye to it and hope no one else notices."

Not at all but to keep the pressure on them. Conservatives have shown themselves unfit to lead

"So you think they should do PAYGO for all their programs hhmmm. Just like when the dems said they would put an end to earmarks and out of control spending as well?"

They are making progress and startuing changes even with R resistence

"So, they failed there too. Yet you will continue to support them no matter how much they spend and lie."

No I will support whoever shows they can lead. The perfect can be the enemy of the good like when you idiots screamed about amnesty so nothing changed...

"Seems the dems have their fair share of Hypocrites and liars as well, along with their mind numb followers like you who will vote for them and defend them no matter how much they lie to you. "

In a less than perfect world we make change a bit at a time


Liberal Sheeple and their terrible ideas
Anyone who thinks they are being held hostage by Private Insurance is an idiot, pure and simple.

Health Insurance is a fairly competitive market. The only thing keeping it from being a truly free and competitive is the GOVERNMENT. The gross stupidity of the LEFT-WING TOTALITARIANS has left us with a tax system that actively penalizes anyone who does not use employer-based health care. In that respect employees are coerced into using a single care provider or paying a penalty for their health care - thanks to the GOVERNMENT.

If Citizens rather than Employers got the same tax breaks on purchasing insurance things would be a lot better.

Also, I love the cricket-chirping from the leftists every time someone mentions charity. Just remember, private charity has done more to combat AIDS in Africa than all the governments of the world combined. It works. Socialists just despise the idea that people can work privately to achieve good without being beholden to the government - especially organized religions.

Hal One-Note
Listen, Mr. Code Pink...

The amount of money spent by our government to fund the DoD is but a small fraction of the total budget. Until you admit that our government spends WAY too much money on handouts and other USELESS programs, there's ABSOLUTELY no way you're gonna persuade me that they're being irresponsible with the Defense budget

...The surge is working...That's why there's no news coming out of Iraq...

Hal
How is possible for one person to be so ignorant on such a range of issues?

On just this one article alone we get these gems of wisdom from you:

- The dems (many who want to cut the military budget by 50%) will rebuild our military

- Increasing taxes on businesses will help them succeed

- Pilgrims fled to America to escape Christianity

- Our Republican-controlled Congress has out-of-control spending

- Conservatives are the "deadbeats" in this country

- We put our mentally ill in jails to control them

- Conservatives aren't willing to pay the price for freedom



My apologies for not being civil, but you sir are either someone who just enjoys posting ridiculous and contradictory comments to get a rise out of people....or you are just a complete f'ing idiot.

Plan A vs. Plan G
Unlike anything mandated by the govt, in a free market, if you don't like plan A, then you have the freedom to look elsewhere for plan B. Granted some conditions make this impossible to change. On the other hand, if plan G is our only option, then if you aren't satisfied, and Lord knows most likely you won't be, then too bad, so sad. Oh Lily, last I checked, hotel rooms don't cost $800 a night.

Incredulous
"..Life and living is about adaptability in a state of constant change/flux. The universe has an ordered chaos about it."

A very definition of conservative is resistant to change LOL

"....In this lifestyle and worldview, the liberal shows himself to be nothing more than a cringing, wretched coward. "

You need a good book on philosphy.. you really do have your liberal/conservative definitions confused. From what you wrote above you are a liberal.

"Liberals/socialists/communists desire nothing less than a return to their only experience of absolute security in an insecure world-the womb."

See confusion of terms again. Are you uneducated or very young?

"...Simply, Conservatives aren't cowards seeking to crawl back into the womb. "

See confusion - conservatives resist all change and anything new or different usually because of fear. Check it out

Another one for Hal
How about the social and economic costs of illegitimacy? Nationally, 35% of all children are now born to a single parent. Black illegitimacy rates exceed 70% and Latino rates exceed 40%. In 1960, the national rate was 5%.

So what happens to all of these illegitimate kids? They are more likely to need welfare benefits in their early years. They are less likely to get a good education. Without sufficient education, they are less likely to get a decent job and become productive members of society. They are more likely to end up in the judicial system. (One study found that 70% of kids in the juvi system came from one-parent homes.)

So is the total cost of the so-called "sexual revolution" that removed the stigma of illegitimacy and encourages sexual activity 24/7? When you add up the health and welfare costs, the business productivity losses, and the criminal system costs, it is BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars every year.

I have a proposal for you. You write your Congressmen and Senators and tell them to reverse decades of anti-family, pro-nanny state legislation, and I will write mine and tell them to get the H*LL out of Iraq. If they listen to you, the cost savings will dwarf what we save by pulling our military out of Iraq.

A.J.
"The amount of money spent by our government to fund the DoD is but a small fraction of the total budget."

What fraction is it, including the Iraq War funding? Oh yes better put reequiping the military also

" Until you admit that our government spends WAY too much money on handouts and other USELESS programs, there's ABSOLUTELY no way you're gonna persuade me that they're being irresponsible with the Defense budget"

LMAO either/or??? LMAO

"...The surge is working...That's why there's no news coming out of Iraq... "

Yes and for another 1,000 years according to McCain. Now how are you going to pay for Bush's war? When? Deadbeat

Hal
Cradle to grave government care and feeding at the expense of the working class is not "new" or "different".....pick up a history book.


whatever happened to
not feeding the trolls?

Don't wrestle the pig in the mud folks, not only for the usual reasons but because it makes it think itself is important, rather than impotent.

hal and lilly
hal- Throughout the history of our nation, debts were incurred to fight wars. They were then retired during peace time. The ever increasing debt and deficit spending is a direct result of liberal social programs that began in the 30's but really took off during the 60's. The socialistic policies of FDR and LBJ will eventually be overturned... either by a wise electorate or a societal collapse... I suspect the latter.

lilly- the income tax is theft when it is used as a means of wealth transfer from those who earn it to those who refuse to earn it. Truth is not a matter of popular opinion... in this case it is nothing more than a matter of word definitions.

Proud Hal and Lib
There is a ripple effect to everything. It happens in life. By the way, how many bills have you gotten personally to pay for someone else's bad decisions? Also, anyone is free to ask the government for anything, including Williams. However, asking doesn't imply granting. I will kindly ask you to donate 1 million dollars to my retirement fund. I believe liberals think that asking demands compliance. Do you feel obligated to comply with my request?

Icedog
"- The dems (many who want to cut the military budget by 50%) will rebuild our military"

We better hope they rebuild it because you guys broke it and have no funds to pay for rebuilding.

"- Increasing taxes on businesses will help them succeed"

Who said this? Not I

"- Pilgrims fled to America to escape Christianity"

See here you go again telling lies by half truths (Rush taught you well). I said traditional. The Pilgrams version of Christianity was not traditional and they had to flee to America where they soon forgot that and started prosecuting others for thier beliefs

"- Our Republican-controlled Congress has out-of-control spending"

The Bush Regime R congress had massive and unrestricted out of control spending - Bush only noticed when the people said enough and elected a D controlled Congress

"- Conservatives are the "deadbeats" in this country"

The very definition of deadbeats -- use things up and not even pay to replace and/or repair them. Our military is a classic example.

"- We put our mentally ill in jails to control them"

Again not what I said at all I said that right now we put out mentally ill in jails rather than treat them. Do you disagree on the percentage of mentally ill in our prisons or that we have a HUGE prison population versus the rest of the world?

"- Conservatives aren't willing to pay the price for freedom"

Are you and the Bush Regime conducting wars everywhere and jnot paying a dime or better yet sending soldiers back time after time to combat because you are too weak to make the sacrifices to replace them?

Truth hurts huh?

Cost of the military
is less than 20% of the national budget last time I checked. The Welfare state is over 70% and growing virtually out of control... and no politician has the courage to talk about it since virtually every voter has their own teet.

Maladroit Hal
So clumsy Hal. In the classical sense of liberalism yes. However, in todays usage liberal refers to every position I stated. If you'd prefer to substitute the word "Progressive" feel free. We've (CONSERVATIVES) exposed liberals for what they represent and offer, and we've found it to be repugnent to a FREE people. Liberals keep tyring to change the stripes on their zebra don't they Mr. "Progressive?"

Hal is right
About the spread of AIDS in Africa-it is a mostly heterosexual problem. This is because many African gummints won't acknowledge the problem or allow much to be done. Once again, gummint is the problem, not the solution. There must be a lot of oil in Africa for Bush to be concerned about this most backwards and corrupt of continents! Hal is also right about the financing of the Iraq war- it should be done in today's dollars, not passing the buck to our children. Hal is completely wrong about the veracity of today's D-led congress- they have not only increased earmarks but have, on several occasions, attempted to rename the earmarks and create ways to slip them in completely undetected. So it appears that when they promised to reduce or eliminate earmarks, that is what they intended to do-rename them or hide them better. The Republicrats turned into borrow and spend idiots just as bad as the tax and spend Dems; we, however, cast them out, just as we cast out those guilty of crimes. How long did Gerry Studds stay in Congress? Is "Cold Cash" Jefferson still serving? Yessir, you Dems sure do tend to your own flocks and keep things honest from within. Fool.

sjt18/lilly
"..Throughout the history of our nation, debts were incurred to fight wars. They were then retired during peace time. "

This is the FIRST war where we did not raise funding to fight a war and yes it took years still to pay it all

"The ever increasing debt and deficit spending is a direct result of liberal social programs that began in the 30's but really took off during the 60's."

Not true just one the WWII GI bill paid for itself many, many times over. Was it perfect? no; did it work? heck yes

"The socialistic policies of FDR and LBJ will eventually be overturned... either by a wise electorate or a societal collapse... I suspect the latter.'

LMAO that was generations ago if we collapse it will be because of you idiots using everything and not replacing it


Hal
Anything that is subsidized you get more of... anything subjected to financial penalty you get less of.

Dems since the 60's have insisted on subsidizing single parenthood. Now that plague effects over 50% of black children... and liberals attempt to blame that on conservatives.

Liberals in the name of "fairness" have long punished wealth growth and view private property as state property... though the growth of national wealth and investment is precisely the best prescription for poverty... as JFK said, "A rising tide lifts all boats".

Liberals have been selling gov't dependency for decades... surprise, surprise we have masses of spoiled brats demanding that someone else fix and pay for the problems in their lives... by and large caused by their own choices.

It is the fundamental philosophies of liberalism and its emphasis on "group rights" rather than individual rights that is directly causing the deterioration of our society.

You can handwave all you want but just look at various democratic socialist states... most are unhappy and unhopeful as a people. Their economy is anemic. The opportunities for personal advancement or climbing the ladder of society are almost non-existent.

If that is the country you want... please, please... move to one of them.

Hal
I think you are using an interesting definition of "paid" when you say the GI Bill paid for itself many times over.

The GI Bill brought in nary a dime, so it is entirely loss.

If you say the increased wealth from education raised more taxes, and paid for the GI bill, you make a bit more sense, but I disagree.

First, by greatly increasing the number of people eligible for college, it also inspired colleges to dumb down to a degree. It is one of the reasons a BS or BA is worth about what a pre-40's HS diploma was. Everyone has a BS/BA and it means very little. That is because we have forced so many through colleges that the level of education declined to allow in those who would not have previously qualified. (Colleges play at being "above material concerns" but are greedy businesses like any other. When the gov't threw money at them, they reduced standards to cash in.)

Also, you seem to propose those people would not have gone to college but for the GI Bil. Many, yes, but not all.

To attribute all growth since the 1940's on the GI BIll, or even a significant portion, is just silly.

There is no way to know whether the GI Bill "paid for itself" in your terms or not. In strictly economic terms, it in no way paid for itself. It was simply money stolen by the gov't and transferred to colleges. It never paid for itself at all.

THRadio
"How about the social and economic costs of illegitimacy? Nationally, 35% of all children are now born to a single parent. Black illegitimacy rates exceed 70% and Latino rates exceed 40%. In 1960, the national rate was 5%."

A national disgrace...Caused by you folks yet again. Where is education? Where is healthcare and birth control? Why is it only the US that has this huge liability. Another example of the tattered social net and a complete unwillingness to invest in our people. Is that all your fault? Not at all the libs are at fault too. The result is we abandoned our poor and keep them that way.

"So is the total cost of the so-called "sexual revolution" that removed the stigma of illegitimacy and encourages sexual activity 24/7?"

Wrong question. Right question: What is the total cost of not maintaining the social programs established by the greatest generation and writing off whole segments of our society?

"... If they listen to you, the cost savings will dwarf what we save by pulling our military out of Iraq. "

Not true three TRILLION is a lot of money over 10 years

Hal
You know exatly what conservatism stands for yet continue to make weak attempts to confuse the issue. Conservatism is not defined by the "desire to resist all change and return us to the 1950's" as liberals would have people believe. We are for limited government, decreased taxation, elimination of the welfare state, self-sufficiency, state's rights, personal freedom, a Constitutionally-limited Federal govt, etc. and ad nauseum. You can't be such a large moron that you come here every day and not have an intimate knowledge of what conservatism is about. The fact that you seem unable to acknowledge the truth and use that as a basis for any argument is a tipoff that you are only here to "spice it up" and push buttons. If you had a real desire for intelligent conversation, you would not resort to falsehoods and half-truths. Why are liberal schemes always mandatory? Why do you people hate individual choice?

Hal
Laugh all you want... but you'll look blindly insane. Medicare, medicaid, and various other welfare entitlements have their roots in the 30's and 60's. Are you that ignorant of history? Those programs are still in place and have been expanded by Dems since. They have grown far beyond the bounds originally projected.

Not surprisingly, all those programs have done is make people dependent. We still have the poor. They are even less likely to climb out of poverty. Families are far more broken amongst the poor and especially poor blacks than in the 60's. Crime is worse. Gangs are worse. Education is worse. Community economics are worse.

Only a liberal would consider that an indication of an intelligent idea worthy of continued funding and expansion of scope.

Use things without repairing them? I haven't used public housing complexes that have had to be condemned because those staying there for free did precisely what a rational person would expect... they destroyed the places.

At least FDR's programs were broad based like Social Security. I'm no fan but at least it was made available to all. The war on poverty and great society ideals of LBJ are far more heinous and destructive.

Hal
and his one celled brain!
He gets the idiot award--beating Lilly with ease.

Moral standards?
Here's what a socialist-American healthcare system would mandate:

• Abortions fully funded.
• Smoking cigarettes outlawed, but drug needle swaps allowed.
• Massive beef recall, with subsidized tofurkey farms.
• Having foreign doctors who'd rather drive SUVs into airports than heal people.
• Govt. thugs knee-capping you because you don't have the mandated health insurance.
• Govt. take-over of gyms for Americas 30-minute morning exercise regimen

Can't wait!

Hal
"Where is education? Where is healthcare and birth control?"

We have them all over the place, but it's still not solving the problem.

andrews
"If you say the increased wealth from education raised more taxes, and paid for the GI bill, you make a bit more sense, but I disagree."

I suspect even an economist of Walter's ilk would agree with me not you. The GI bill was one of key components in our success throughout the era. Read almost any textbook

"First, by greatly increasing the number of people eligible for college, it also inspired colleges to dumb down to a degree. It is one of the reasons a BS or BA is worth about what a pre-40's HS diploma was."

Apples/oranges. The degree was not really devalued until the Vietnam War when exemptions were given for being in college. You are right many US college degrees are equivalent to HS diplomas elsewhere

"Also, you seem to propose those people would not have gone to college but for the GI Bil. Many, yes, but not all."

Not all but by far most

"To attribute all growth since the 1940's on the GI BIll, or even a significant portion, is just silly."

No it is not


Hal
I know that you read Sowell and Williams because you comment on their threads. So you know that America's poor have the greatest chance for mobility into the upper quintiles than anywhere else in the world. Simply put- in this country, the poor do not stay poor. It may require, gasp, hard work and sacrifice (I know-dirty words for a liberal)(and probably racist, to boot) but it is possible. Further, the federal poverty level is higher than the average income level for much of the world. The social problems you quack about have been brought about by FDR and Johnson- removing the unwed mother's reliance on the father of the child (and putting the burden on the taxpayer) eventually led to the destigmatization of unwed pregnancy. And now it is expected and rewarded. There is no need to seek support from the fathers of the little bastards since my tax dollars are ripe for the picking. Your solution is what? Throw more money at it? Ha, Ha, Ha.

Incredible idiocy
It was the social programs of the "greatest generation" that halted the advancement of blacks as a community and individuals and directly subsidized the worst of the sexual liberation movement's effects on society.

The left was wrong about the need for a father... remember Quayle was mocked by liberals for saying single motherhood was a problem not that long ago?

The left was wrong about the impact and extent of their undoubtedly sincere efforts to help the poor through the great society type programs.

The left as they are apt to do misdiagnosed the fundamental problem. It wasn't education. It wasn't material. It was fundamentally a moral/ethical/spiritual problem.

They took away some of the best incentives that the poor had to change.

I currently know some parents with a healthy 24 year old daughter. The daughter has engaged in all sorts of undesirable behaviors from crime to drug use to illicit sex... these parents continue to pay her bills to include giving her money that they know goes to cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, etc. They directly pay her utilities and rent.

She married a drug dealer she was living with because the terms of her probation wouldn't allow co-habitation. Now, without a job, without insurance, with a criminal record and a husband with one... she's pregnant.

That is a microcosm of what the gov't liberalism is doing to millions. They are facilitating and directly growing bad choices that are destructive to individuals and society at large.

There is no such thing as freedom without responsibility. Liberals have stripped those who most need to be personally responsible of their incentive to do so.

Benefits
One solution may be a variation of what the military does. If you are in an MVA and were not wearing your seatbelt they will not pay the bill. It can be like that for medicare, etc. If you choose to drive without your seatbelt or ride with no helmet, then you are free to choose that. You will get 100% of the bill should something untowards happen. Very simple. Take precautions or face the consequences.

CVN65
"...Why are liberal schemes always mandatory? Why do you people hate individual choice? "

Wait a minute you just gave me a lecture on conservatism and you claim not to know that we moderates are pro-choice?

Hal
Actually, I think Williams, Sowell, et al would agree with me, but to debate what they would say is silly.

Also, referring to textbooks as arbiters of truth is foolish. Texts can be biased and are hardly the pinnacle of accuracy.

But ignoring all that, why is it "apples/oranges" to compare diplomas before and after the GI Bill. That one has less value seems to be the logical outcome of forcing so many more bodies into the universities. Of necessity it reduced selectivity, and thus made the colleges dumb down to keep the money flowing in form the GIs, as the more people you have, the less selective you can be.

(So no one gets offended, not saying GIs are dumber than anyone else, just that when you accept only 100 students you can be more selective than when you accept 10,000. And if you hope to keep those 10,000 for 4 years, you necessarily lower standards somewhat.)

What is "apples/oranges" about that?

Hal
Pro-choice only applies to removing a fetus.

No "moderate"/"progressive"/whatever the word du jour is for lib is pro-choice about taxation, guns, free speech, freedom of association, etc.

You support university speech codes and hate speech laws(anti free speech), affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws(anti-freedom of association), and gun control.

How do any of those increase choice?

It seems the only choice your side supports is that of removing a fetus, otherwise you are very happy to allow no choice.

Hal, Hal,Hal
Walter's Ilk??? Um, how many books have you written and been paid for? You really are full of aplomb for yourself. You must live in a hall of mirrors so as to infatuate yourself with self.

Deliverance in Vermont
Talk about Lefties out of control, I think it is time to invest in aluminium foil hats:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush .ap/index.html

A town council in Brattleboro Vermont is voting on a proposal to issue an arrest warrent for President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney should they ever come into town.

This bizarre behavior of elected officials can only make one scratch one's head.

I picture a modern-day version of the the movie "Deliverance," ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance ) in which the country's highest elected officials are on a hunting trip in the woods of Vermont, and they are set upon by wild-eyed Leftie yahoos who hold them for imagined crimes.

The things that the Left consider worthwhile for legislatures never ceases to astonish, from controlling what goes into one's mouth, to making up laws and arresting the President of the United States.

The mental illness that seems to infect the activist Left should have a clinical name, but sadly, I doubt the syndrome will ever be studied.

You see, most of the psychiatric provession suffer from the same disease.

Anne
"Sometime ago a friend reminded me that the ONLY thing "liberals" and "logic" have in common is the letter "L.""

I've got a series of essays aimed to highlight some of the liberals glaring inconsistencies. Stop on by. Part two is already up.


Amen, Andrews
Amen, man, A-men!

CalVRWC
“Here's what a socialist-American healthcare system would mandate:
Abortions fully funded.”

Abortions would be mandatory for at-risk-babies in order to keep health care costs down. That’s the “Pro-Choice” party for you!

Pro-Choice, unless you choose not to pay for someone else’s healthcare, food, housing, etc, etc.

Pro-Choice?
What if I want to choose not to subsidize irresponsible short-sightedness through the Soc Security program? What if I choose not to subsidize people like my sister-in-law who burned herself out on drugs then used it to get full disability under SSI? What if I choose not to subsidize a public school system that teaches philosophical viewpoints and encourages behaviors contrary to my religious convictions?

What if I want to choose not to employee homosexuals or rent dwellings to them? Or cohabitating heterosexuals for that matter?

What if I don't want to fund pork barrel projects in Sen Byrd's WV?

The ONLY issues liberals seem to be "pro-choice" on are that a woman should be able to irresponsibly get pregnant then kill someone else for it... and that their preferred groups should have a choice of privileges whose costs are picked up by the rest of us.

They are only "pro-choice" when the "choice" is divided from the incumbent responsibility.

Confusion of the Left
Lefties have a confused and disturbed relationship to the simple "do's and don'ts" of life.

The word "should" will normally send a member of the Left into a tizzy: nobody is allowed to tell them what to do. They want to be free and unfettered to follow any licencious behavior that blows up their skirt.

Astonishingly, this does not stop them from trying to create laws that restrict govern other people right down to the very minutia of life.

Lefties often remind me of the proverbial enfant terrible, who are stuck in toddlerhood, and thrive on being contrary. They wish to dominate and control all around them, and in spite of the fact the possess little power, they behave as if they are the rulars of all they survey.

I wonder if the Lefties in the Mississippi legislature would consider issuing a similar edict to restrict the sexual behavior of their citizens in order to prevent the spread of AIDS?

I can imagine their hysterical response to such a suggestion.

Nee
Long time no comments on my blog! Got used to your daily responses.

Of course, I did manage to write nothing this weekend, so guess that had something to do with it.

Got featured on the TH blog page again. Except for that first one on reforming primaries, they seem to always feature quickie essays I toss off while chatting with my wife or playing with my son. Anything I spend a long time thinking through gets ignored.

Seems I should probably think a lot less, and maybe I could be famous.

Hal
Moderate? Are you kidding me? Compared to who? Castro? Sean Penn? Michael Moore? Yet another example of a half-truth. You may be left of center (in your mind) but won't even admit it. I fully admit to being a staunch conservative.

andrews
Bingo. They are all about liberty, when it comes to allowing any and all forms of immorality. But if you want to build an addition onto your house you had better damn well have a building permit that you have to pay for or else some liberal will come along and stop you. They are all about free speech, as long as it's some idiot anti-war protester spouting inanities while simaltaneously demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of practical reality. However, let a republican speak up on a college campus somewhere and he/she is a facsist. The fact that these people are hypocrites is about as newsworthy as the fact that the media is biased. But I know you know that.

Government Notice:
None of these postings are healthy for any of you!

For that reason, there are to be no further postings on this site!

Stop now or your local government policing agencies will be out to arrest you for increasing your heart rate in an unhealthy manor.

Instead, everyone hold hands and sing “We are the World”.

You can think of all sorts of reasons
to maintain our shameful health care system
if you want, but it all boils down to - I'm only
going to pay for my own, thank you.

To which I have to re-iterate - don't be too
sure about that.

sjt18
"What if I want to choose not to subsidize irresponsible short-sightedness through the Soc Security program?"

You make a great point. We pay the government to protect us via Social Security. If we don't want the protection, we can get into serious trouble.

They call this a "safety net"? I call it a protection racket!

viruddh
If you think our health care system is so shameful than why don't you move to Canada or Cuba where they have so-called "universal health care"?

But Wait
You are already paying for someone else's health
care. Everytime you buy a health insurance
policy you are paying for everyone's health care
also in the rates you pay.

But oh maybe you don't buy your insurance policy,
your boss or your organizaion pays for that.
Well, aren't you the lucky one!

andrews
"Also, referring to textbooks as arbiters of truth is foolish. Texts can be biased and are hardly the pinnacle of accuracy."

Read other than tracts then

"But ignoring all that, why is it "apples/oranges" to compare diplomas before and after the GI Bill."

Because there was little devaluing during that time frame. It was only after the draft that the devaluation really began.

"That one has less value seems to be the logical outcome of forcing so many more bodies into the universities. Of necessity it reduced selectivity, and thus made the colleges dumb down to keep the money flowing in form the GIs, as the more people you have, the less selective you can be."

That didn't happen because there was a finite number of veterans a surge if you will and the program was not just college it was machinists, truck drivers, mechanics, etc

"...And if you hope to keep those 10,000 for 4 years, you necessarily lower standards somewhat.)"

Sure but it only happened once the draft started. It was not even economics as much as if I don't accept this student or this work I may well be causing this guys death.


Viruddh
If you are ashamed, I am not stopping you from going out and paying for health care for others. Go ahead and do it, just don't force me to do so.


HankReaden
Why don't I move? Because the U.S. my home.

I would rather improve America. But thanks for
the suggestion.

P.S. I spend several weeks a year in Europe,
usually France. Boy are things tough there.
What poor wretches.

A Few Suggestions
Get the Feds out of feeding our students. It is really none of thier buisness. Most schools that invite concessionaires into thier cafeterias use USDA grants to subsidize school lunches.

End the tax breaks Corporations get for providing health care in lieu of pay. On average, the Fortune Corporations foot about $12000 per married employee per year for Health Insurance. This should end.

If the Liberals are really interested in "curing" dangerous behavior, perhaps they should look at gays. Sodomy is not only unsanitary, but it is also deadly (AIDS,STDs) to the populace at large. Perhaps Hal would like to comment.

Hal
You are wrong,t he devaluation did not start with efforts to help draft dodging in the 60's, that is liberal garbage. Especially as draft deferments ended, the draft ended and devaluation continued and got worse.

Why can you not accept that as you increase the number of students selectivity goes down, and so the standards drop. It is the same reason selective private schools are much better than public schools which must accept everyone.

The same forces work when we push lots of people into college, either via the GI Bill or student loans. We offer too much money for the colleges to ignore, they lower standards, and cash the checks. And we are left with a mandatory 4 additional years of schooling, greater costs, and a worse outcome.

Yes, great plan. I can just see how it "paid for itself many times over" as you originally claimed.


Note
I say mandatory 4 years of schooling, as the BA/BS is so devalued that we need a BA/BS to get jobs once requiring a HS diploma.

I think I covered that somewhere else in this set of comments, but I can't recall where. Since Hal seems to miss my point sometimes I think I did not say something, when in reality he just ignored it.


Andrews
Wow, everyone has got such good advice before -
you know, the kind I haven't heard before.

Sorry, but I am into the sharing thing. Nice try
though.

Viruddh: But Wait! There's More!
*** "viruddh writes: Wednesday, March, 05, 2008 2:25 PM
But Wait
You are already paying for someone else's health
care. Everytime you buy a health insurance
policy you are paying for everyone's health care
also in the rates you pay
" ***

Yes, but Blue Cross Blue Shield can't arrest me if I don't choose to participate with them.

Ken
It's more like a ponzi scheme but you pretty well nailed it. Know this, liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent. That is not my quote it comes from Jim Quinn, but it is true nonetheless. Social Security is a great example of this as you so deftly illustrate. There are endless others. Let's take taxation, for example. In the liberal worldview, it is necessary to keep taxes high in order to increase revenue to the government. Higher taxes depress the entreprenerial spirit and lead to actually less being produced, fewer people being hired, less disposable income that would otherwise be spent within the economy, and invariably a spike in actual revenue to the treasury. Tell a liberal this and it's blasphemy, but then again the art of liberalism is standing on your head and telling the rest of the world it's upside down (another Quinnism).

Viruddh
So, unless you can force everyone to help pay for the poor, you won't do it either?

I thought you said you were ashamed? Strange shame which doesn't allow you to act unless you can bully everyone into going along with you.

Folks
YOu are not paying for your own healthcare now. You are paying a bit for every non payer out there. We pay far too much and get far too little for our healthcare dollar. But I forget like immigration it is about doing nothing but talking lots...

And all this why don't you move nonsense;let's flip for a second. The US you folks want to create already exists many places. Much of the third world is already organised like that. Pay for only what you use. Why don't you folks go there hmm Nigeria is an excellent place to see the type country you advocate.

viruddh
Well I'm glad you love the country, it is refreshing to hear that from a liberal. How exactly does taking market forces out of healthcare and replacing it with bueracratic malfeasence improving America? If you want to emulate France, I tell you what, I'll meet you half way; we should be using nuclear power all over the place. But the libs won't let us, which means we can't increase energy, so that way the same people can complain about energy dependence.

Sorry to pile on Hal, but
Regarding illegitimacy, you said:

"A national disgrace...Caused by you folks yet again. Where is education? Where is healthcare and birth control? Why is it only the US that has this huge liability. Another example of the tattered social net and a complete unwillingness to invest in our people. Is that all your fault? Not at all the libs are at fault too. The result is we abandoned our poor and keep them that way."

Are we on the same planet? How are we supposed to "educate" about illegitimacy when traditional morality has been banned from the classroom? We can't even suggest our creation by God, who is the source of our Judeo-Christian moral code. Instead, kids learn that they are related to apes and therefore are free to swing and "hang out" in a la la land of moral relativism.

As for the poor, the truth is simple. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life. Liberals are all about giving out fish (courtesy of the American taxpayer). Conservatives would rather teach fishing. And here is the best fishing syllabus that money can buy: Don't have kids until you are married and ready for the responsibility of raising them. Teach your kids to lead a moral life, through your own words and deeds. Teach your kids to love education and to get as much as they possibly can. Teach your kids to be self-reliant, charitable, accountable and ethical. Repeat for each generation.

Hal
Silly statement. One of the reasons we pay for others who are uninsured is the mandatory care required by the gov't (hospitals cannot refuse "emergency" care, regardless of how trivial the condition really is) and the easy bankruptcy laws, and generous treatment of those who default on payments. By making it difficult to collect, yes those debts are shared around, but there is no logical necessity that thing are handled that way. It is simply the way the gov't has chosen to handle such things.

In other words, leftie generosity to the "poor" created the situation then they gripe about it.

Also, Nigeria is hardly a bastion of the free market. The first requirement of a free economy is a consistent, stable set of laws. So, even if the "third world" is "pay a s you go" it is not the sort of country "we folks" want.

Try again Hal, you are beginning to make even less sense than usual, which is quite a feat.

virrudh
Please don't mistake rejection of a socialistic health care scam with approval of the perverse system that gov't, big business, and big labor have created.

What business do employers have in one's health insurance? About as much as they have in your home or auto insurance.

Why can't I co-op on group insurance with anyone I please?

Why can't premiums be based on behavior based risks?

Why is gov't already involved in price setting and the like?

Why can't I establish a medical savings account that isn't subject to taxation on the interests?

The BEST solution is to get gov't AND business out of it. Insurance should be personal ONLY.

A good insurance plan would go like this: newly employed 23 year old can pay for a catastrophic plan then put money into a fully tax exempt medical savings/investment account. During his/her healthy years, that account swells. As he ages, those savings can be used to pay for the higher catastrophic premiums and also expenses.

Even a contribution of $50 per month would build an account that would cover nearly all medical needs for that individual in retirement.

Why wouldn't a liberal like this plan? They can't control people and it makes people responsible for themselves... IOW's, liberal nannies aren't needed.

THRadio
Actually, your fishing quote needs a third clause, most forget.

"Build a cannery next door and he'll teach himself to fish."

I don't want to give or teach.

Hal Donahue
Hold it, we're trying to stop people like you from radically changing the health care system because we would like it to continue to exist! You are the people who always want to emulate failed practices of other countries, the rest of us just want to live here. We happen to have the greatest nation ever to exist in world history and there are two basic reasons for it: freedom and capitalism. Now I know saying that to people like you is like showing Dracula the cross but it is nonetheless true. What we are trying to do is keep you people from screwing it all up, and National, Socialized, universal, whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it healthcare puts us on the fast track to destroy both.

viruddh
You are obviously not an employer. I look at the costs of each employee, considering salary, payroll taxes, retirement and health care costs each year. Health care costs, while appearing to be paid by the employer, represent money that the employee does not receive in direct payment for services rendered. Same as social security (BOTH ends). There are no free lunches. Businesses just pass the tax burden onto their customers. More government IS the problem.

Hal
"We pay far too much and get far too little for our healthcare dollar."

So you think the solution is to put it all in the nice, safe, efficient hands of -- THE GOVERNMENT???

That bridge in Brooklyn is still for sale.

HankRearden
"...Let's take taxation, for example....but then again the art of liberalism is standing on your head and telling the rest of the world it's upside down (another Quinnism). "

LOL again, even Ronnie raised taxes when required. Again third world countries generally have no way to collect taxes so they should be booming. Why aren't they?

Interesting add on to my last post
If the 50 million or so liberals in America would contribute an average of $1000 to a charity to provide every graduating HS Sr with the beginnings of a personal healthcare plan... each kid would start out with $5000 in their account which would be more than sufficient to cover their catastrophic plan and incidental healthcare expenses during college if they chose to go.

If liberals means tested this to the lowest 20% then they could give them $25K each... or reduce their own contributions significantly.

Hal et al... please explain why you are insistent on doing good only with other people's money?

PS- our Hollywood liberal types could probably fund such a program out of their own finances if they weren't selfish hypocrites.

Ken
"So you think the solution is to put it all in the nice, safe, efficient hands of -- THE GOVERNMENT??? "

No I do not

Hal
The lack of effective taxing methods has nothing to do with the failure of 3rd world countries. They fail because their populace is largely lawless and irresponsible. IOW's, they aren't self governing... which is exactly where the policies and philosophies of liberalism are taking the US.


Hal Donnahue
Thanks for repeating my words, even though you don't get them. Let me ax you this, in these same third world countries that do not collect taxes (which is hard to imagine), are the people of those countries free or are they ruled by a tyrant/dictator/liberal? In other words, can you name for me a country where freedom and capitalism are present with low taxes and the economy is poor?

CVN65/viruddh
"..Health care costs, while appearing to be paid by the employer, represent money that the employee does not receive in direct payment for services rendered. Same as social security (BOTH ends). "

This is an endless battle and I have found it almost impossible to get employees to recognise that healthcare, etc are compensation. But even with "low" salaries they want to work for a company "with benefits". That said when I had a large company I could beat up little companies who had to pay far more than I did for employee healthcare coverage. But why should a business HAVE to be in the healthcare business? Internationally it is a huge competitive disadvantage

"There are no free lunches. Businesses just pass the tax burden onto their customers. More government IS the problem. "

If you are honest you know that isn't true. Almost every time you have to eat a piece too

CVN missed one
In your 2:56 post you forgot that once the employer costs and the minimum wage have risen to a level that is more than the employer can get out of an unskilled worker, the employer won't hire them for that wage. The "minimum wage" is just the step function: the true minimum wage is 0.

If the employer wants to break the law and pay someone under the table then they can afford to hire more unskilled workers AT THE RATE THAT THE WORKER'S WORK IS TRUELY VALUED. If they are already breaking the law, then why not hire illegal workers? For the folks in Rio Linda, that means that if you want less illegals in your community either drop payroll taxes or lower the minimum wage. Those workers who have value won't be affected, as there are already other companies who would hire them.

Hal
If businesses don't pass the cost along to their customers, then they take it out of what they would have paid shareholders.

So either you stiff the customer or retirees and pension holders.

Great way to fund the gov't by "soaking the rich". Sorry, corporate taxation very rarely hits the rich to the degree it hits the poor (customers) and the middle class (shareholders).

And before you guffaw, over 3/5 of stocks are held by middle class owners, per the last numbers I saw (admittedly a few years ago), so taxing shareholders does not hurt the rich.

And, if not the customers and shareholders, who pays corporate taxes? The corporation doesn't really exist, you know. Some human ends up paying.


Valid Point, however.....
As usual Professor Williams makes valid points, however in the spirit of bi-partisanship, maybe we can strike a compromise. The media could then get all warm & fuzzy in the afterglow of all this feeling of good will.
If we allow the government to impose on us, maybe we could impose on them. For example, we get could take control over Ted Kennedy's health care and cut off all liquor intake and put him on a low fat diet. We could even make "chubbs" walk instead of ride in a "enviornmentally deficient" (ie. car) vehicle. After all, if I am going to be forced to pay his health care, I have the right to dictate what and how the butterball Senator eats, drinks and exercises. Furthermore if I have to pay for someone's abortion, do I not then have the right to control these people's sexual adventures?
Hmm, maybe there is something to this, central planning stuff?

Hal pt2
And if we aren,t talking about corporations, but sole proprietors and partnerships, then you are saying you want to tax small businesses, very few of which are rich as well.

So, yes, you are right that companies cannot pass 100% of tax along to customers, but the rest is either taken as a hit by the owner, or passed along to shareholders.

Do any other those sound like good ideas to you?

Taxes
The consumer or value adder (usually a laborer) eventually pay ALL TAXES.

The only question should be "What is the most efficient and painless way to gather revenue?"

For our type of economy that has to be a single tax against retail sales.

A sales tax DOES NOT tax an individual. It taxes the whole economic transaction from the producer to the consumer.

If they were truthful, statists would acknowledge that the primary benefit of the income tax is not revenue but control and ability to get votes.

andrews
You left a couple of possibilities out. A company can reduce compensation to employees or squeeze more out of vendors.

sjt18
Exactly right. Raising taxes is never about generating more revenue, because it doesn't. It is about control, especially when you are forced by the point of a gun to report your income. Somehow in the liberal worldview this is compassion.

sjt18
I was assuming the company was operating in a generally competitive labor market, making reducing wages a self-defeating proposition, as you would eliminate your most profitable employees first, making marginal cost of labor rise dramatically.

I made the same assumptions about non-employee costs, that they were generally competitively priced and that the company had taken advantage of any leverage it had.

But, yes, those options exist under certain circumstance. They could also spend up accumulated capital, speed up depreciation schedules to defer the tax burden, and a few other strategies that don't come to mind.

However, in general, assuming the market is a competitive one for labor and goods, taxes either come out of the pockets of the customers or the owners/shareholders.

As long as the micromanaging
Gladys Kravitz do-gooders are inserting themselves in the lives and finances of others, why not make birth control mandatory for those on public assistance? That's a gov't intrusion which could truly serve to greatly reduce poverty and decrease costs at all levels.

Snow reported in hell
3:10 PM sports a post by Hal Donahue that contains virtually nothing I disagree with. Yes, health benefits are compensation. And yes, most employers eat part of new government programs. I don't see how this argues in favor of new government programs, however.

Re: third world nations and taxation: Nigeria gives us a relevant example. Nearly 100% of the government's revenue comes from the sale of oil. Consequently, the government has no need of direct taxes on the people. Sound appealing?

The problem is, since the government has no need of taxes, the government doesn't give a damn what happens to the people. They're dictators, and the public has no sway. So the nation languishes in poverty, while the dictators grow rich... but there are no taxes.

Enlightened self-government and a rotating leadership (like the American or British systems) would solve this.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

HankRearden
"...Let me ax you this, in these same third world countries that do not collect taxes (which is hard to imagine),.."

No it isn't if you think about it but are way to inefficient to be successful. Of course you have to hire your own security detail etc..

"are the people of those countries free or are they ruled by a tyrant/dictator/liberal?"

Actually most third world citizens are extremely free. They can do almost anything their neighbors let them do or they can force on them. It is all about brute force. If you are truly good you can even be your own equivalent of a war lord. Might makes right remember

"In other words, can you name for me a country where freedom and capitalism are present with low taxes and the economy is poor? "

Sure the US

Hal's TOO BOORISH!
I refuse to engage in any further explainations of the far superior principles of conservativism v.liberalism with Hal the Boor. He continues to exhibit imbicilic behavior in his completely illogical rejoinders to example after example of failed and damaging liberal policy decisions. He is being intentionally obtuse simply to get a rise from his intellectual and much more honest betters. Good bye Hal. I do still pray for you and your ilk.

Great Article Dr. Williams!!!
Are you available for a VP spot? I think McCain needs some help in the economics area. With your education and wisdom, that ticket would be hard to beat!!! Yes, the "nanny" welfare state has increasingly destroyed the fabric of our country. We are no longer the "Kennedy" people of asking not from our country. Many have become more ungrateful, ignorant, lazy, and demanding our government do everything, short of wiping our asses everyday and unfortuantely, many are already at that stage as well.

Hal
The US has a poor economy? By what conceivable standard?

Except for near-terminal BDS what could make one describe the US economy as "poor"?

Poor economy?
I guess the "poor" US economy explains all those people sneaking over the border into Mexico.

Hal Doofus Writes w/o Thinking
"There are no free lunches. Businesses just pass the tax burden onto their customers. More government IS the problem. "

If you are honest you know that isn't true. Almost every time you have to eat a piece too

What part is not true government being the problem, or the fact that corporate taxes are ultimately paid by the consumers. For God's sake, Hal, read a basic economics text.

andrews
"..If businesses don't pass the cost along to their customers, then they take it out of what they would have paid shareholders."

That is correct reduced profit.

"So either you stiff the customer or retirees and pension holders."

Stiff? Why is that stiff?

"Great way to fund the gov't by "soaking the rich". Sorry, corporate taxation very rarely hits the rich to the degree it hits the poor (customers) and the middle class (shareholders)."

Hey pay for what you use. If corps. are an entity under the law (which has many advantages and protections) shouldn't "they" be taxed for the public goods and services they consume?

Oh for the record I quite like the rich LOL

Incredulous
Hal is getting so confused that he's even contradicting himself. I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to feel sorry for him. I hope he's in a good nursing home, or has someone to take care of him.

Our economy is "poor", Hal?
When I lose my frivolous job, when plasma screen TV sales drop, when cell phone sales diminish, when kids who can scarely read cease to attract scholarship dollars to colleges, when I'm not asked to waste thousands of dollars by the end of each fiscal year, etc... maybe then I'll think the economy is so awful.

private health insur. vs govt.health ins
I'm not convinced that either is good. What if I shopped for my own health insurance like auto or house or life insurance. What if I paid out of my own pocket. What if doctors didn't have to pay outrageous amounts for their education or even carry liability insurance. What if in case they don't reach the mark or make too many mistakes they loose their licenses. What if ambulance chasers had to actually work for a living. What if people stopped going to the doctor for runny noses. We don't need socialized medicine we need solutions to the problems we have created for ourselves.

Incredulous
"...I refuse to engage in any further explainations of the far superior principles of conservativism v.liberalism with Hal the Boor. "

Thanks I love it this makes my day always

Joycey
I am with you. Health insurance became an employer provided service during WWII, when wage caps required competition be done in "perks". Then tax benefits institutionalized this bad idea.

You are right, health care would become a lot more price competitive if more paid out of pocket. That is why, if we must have gov't interference in health care, I would prefer they favor health savings accts rather than any insurance scheme.

Of course, I would really prefer they get out altogether, stop favoring business health insurance via taxation, and let the market and private choices figure this out instead.

andrews
"The US has a poor economy? By what conceivable standard?"

Stagflation work? Housing bubble work? Record numbers of unemployed people Not seeking work? A dollar weaker than it has been for years and years, do you think the US economy is strong?