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Friday, October 02, 2009
Linda Chavez :: Townhall.com Columnist
Common Sense Not Sex Discrimination
by Linda Chavez
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The Commonwealth of Massachusetts hardly seems a likely setting for rampant sex discrimination in state hiring, but apparently the Obama administration doesn't agree. The Justice Department this week filed suit against the state and its Department of Corrections, alleging they have engaged in a "pattern or practice of discrimination against female applicants for entry-level correctional officer positions."

Arguing with Idiots By Glenn Beck

So what exactly constitutes this discrimination? Apparently, female prison guard applicants have a more difficult time passing a required physical abilities test (PAT) than their male counterparts, which is unacceptable to the Obama Justice Department. "Bringing an end to practices that have a discriminatory impact on the basis of sex," says the press release touting the suit, "is a major priority of the Justice Department and Civil Rights Division."

It wasn't all that long ago that the very idea of hiring women to guard violent men -- even if they were behind bars -- would have been thought unwise if not downright crazy. But we've learned that women can do non-traditional jobs, even excel at them. And we've been reassured by feminists that women would ultimately demonstrate they could perform these jobs just as well as men.

But a funny thing happened on our way to wiping out gender differences. Men, on average, are still bigger and stronger than women. So any job that requires physical strength will find fewer women than men in its ranks. That doesn't mean there aren't some women who outperform some men in physically demanding roles, but it does mean that you're likely to see more men than women pass tests that require high-level physical strength.

Which brings us back to Massachusetts and its Department of Corrections. My colleague at the Center for Equal Opportunity, Roger Clegg, attempted to find out why the Justice Department believes that the PAT "is not job related and consistent with business necessity" and is therefore discriminatory. But no one would talk about the case since it is now in litigation. So he went looking for a description of the offending test and what he found online demonstrates just how topsy-turvy the world of anti-discrimination law has become.

According to a Corrections Department pamphlet describing the PAT, applicants are tested on the skills necessary to respond to a hypothetical prison disturbance that has broken out in a building across the prison compound. They have to show they can run the length of the prison campus, climb flights of stairs to the top floor of the prison, remove fallen prison guards or inmates by pulling them to safety and putting them on stretchers, and, finally, restrain violent inmates.

The actual test includes several steps, including removing a "fallen Officer (weight 185 pounds) from the scene," which is demonstrated by dragging "an 85 pound mannequin and 100 pound box, both placed on a sheet, for a distance of 25 feet on a smooth tile or concrete floor." Another part of the test requires that the applicant lift the 85-pound mannequin from the floor and carry it a distance of 100 feet," the equivalent of lifting and carrying, with the assistance of another officer, a 170-pound body.

In 2007 and 2008, according the Justice Department's press release, 96.3 percent of male applicants for correctional jobs passed the PAT, but only 58.8 percent of female applicants did so. But are the lower pass rates for women the result of discrimination? Hardly. They simply reflect that a higher percentage of men than women are capable of, say, lifting and carrying 85 pounds of dead weight or dragging 185 pounds across the floor, especially after having run a half-mile on a treadmill at 5 mph and spending three minutes on a stair-stepper at a pace of 96 steps per minute.

The Justice Department has no business forcing prisons to hire women (or men) who can't help quell a prison disturbance or come to the aid of their fellow officers. Such hiring seems dangerous at best. It puts lives at risk, including the women hired. It's not sex discrimination but common sense for Massachusetts and other jurisdictions to continue to use such tests.

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About The Author

Linda Chavez is chairman of the Center for Equal Opportunity and author of Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics .

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NO problem with that
I'm both a liberal and a Massachusetts resident, and I have absolutely no problem with the idea that women are generally less likely than men to be able to perform the physical feats required by this assessment. There will be a very small number of women who can do this, so I think the policy should be the common sense one--those who can measure up can get the jobs, regardless of sex, and those who can't, should not, again, regardless of sex.


Gestell
BRAVO!

You've demonstrated again why a lot of conservative posters on this site who know who you are tend to hold you in high regard as far as liberals go (I know, I know, this may be a case of damning you with faint praise).

You may be a liberal, but you're not a MINDLESSLY DOCTRINNAIRE liberal, like all too many liberals who post to this site. If a lot more liberals (and certainly a lot more MASSACHUSETTS liberals like First and Marcia) who post to this site had the kind of common sense you demonstrated in your post, a lot of the conservatives here would hold liberals in considerably more regard than they currently do.

Data also available from military
That a few women, built like (and with stamina of) Chris Evert can outperform raw male recruits. But, through basic-training and its inherent attrition, they CANNOT outperform the same recruit at that time (as the Everts' performance is already at-peak).

GESTELL
I'm in complete agreement on this one.

It's not a bash on women at all. The statistics in the article seem right, and that the test is not discriminatory.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Wendy
"Date: Oct 2, 2009 - 3:00 PM EST
Senate shenanigans
You all need to get on the ball with the following story:...We could be enslaved with socialized medicine as early as Thursday..."

You really are a dram queen like leader limbawl. You don't want healthcare? Why? Please do tell me what you have and why you want people to continue to die because they have no, or the wrong, health insurance. I wait with baited breath


Hal@8:38PM
"You really are a dram queen like leader limbawl. You don't want healthcare? Why? Please do tell me what you have and why you want people to continue to die because they have no, or the wrong, health insurance. I wait with baited breath"

Hal, I think that normal dental hygiene will prevent that "baited breath" afflicting you. If the usual brushing and flossing doesn't do the trick, you may have to get a tongue scraper. If these normal measures fail, you may wish to see medical assistance.

Meanwhile, we'll be waiting with bated breath.

i (10/02/2009 - 10:51 PM)

Great laughs, Donahue
Really made my day, you calling someone a "drama queen" while you post stuff like "you want people to continue to die"

You may not realize this, but in real life (as opposed to lib fantasy) opposing socialized medicine does not mean you want people to die. Or that you're a racist. Or that you support torture. Or that you...

All that it means is that you think socialized medicine is a bad idea. Rational people are supposed to be able to discuss such differences of opinion without sounding like whiney schoolgirls.

Theres and easy solution.

There is an easy solution that is used by many Police and Fire Departments.

LOWER THE STANDARDS.

People will die as a result but Liberals never really care about that.

Equality of result!
not of opportunity! Is lowering the standards an admission of inequality?

Do you remember these cases?
There was an incident about 7 or 8 years ago in which a female courtroom guard in her fifties or sixties was unable to stop a young, violent man from escaping a courtroom; the prisoner killed several people as he fled. [I think her overpowered her and took her gun, and I believe this was the same prisoner who later turned himself in after taking a Christian woman hostage; she prepared a nice meal for him and gently nagged him to make amends with God.]

I also recall a column by Maggie Gallagher noting how many male names were among the dead on 9/11. She then went on to point out that the vast majority of the policemen and firemen killed that day were, in fact, men, and that in the months before the attack, NYC was facing a similar sexual discrimination suit due to their requiring new hires to be physically able to carry injured victims to safety.

The Tests are Discriminatory
And they should be.

What else
What else would you expect from a stupid, lying and dishonest administration?

Worth checking into
Given our nation's history of discriminating in subtle and not-so-subtle ways against women and minorities, I think it's worth checking into the state's requirements to be a prison guard. If this is just one more example of "the good old boys" devising a test that they know women will have a hard time passing, in order to keep them out, that test should be changed. Physical tests like this, as they are in law enforcement or other physically demanding jobs, are sometimes used to keep women away. I'd like to know the stats on how many small men get excluded, due to "physical limitations".

absurd
At first, everything was labeled racist. Next, everything will be labeled sexist. Soon, both accusations will be ignored.

Good. Enough of this absurdity. Maybe Obama and his merry band of idiots really will bring us to a post-racial america. All of the EOE laws will go into the toilet because of their abuses of them.

Reality Time!
As a counselor I have been around the worst of the worst. I have met men who have cut slit throats ear to ear, killed police officers in gunfights, and have raped and permanently disabled women, and have said they would do it again. These are just a couple of examples. The people in there are violent and can erupt with no notice. Prison guards are the first targets in crisis situations. A female guard is too susceptible to being overpowered, beaten and possibly raped. Will the Obama administration file a lawsuit against a bunch of prisoners if that happens? Or will they send Gloria Steinem to the prison to chew the inmates out? Earth to the Obama administration: If it ain't broke don't fix it!

"Aptitude tests". . .
were outlawed becuse of "civil rights" concerns. The new "gatekeeper" is the "college degree". I would like to know how many otherwise qualified people were denied a job merely because they lacked a "degree". In many companies, only a "degree" is required. It does not matter if the "degree" is in the field of expertise that the employer requires. It appears that in many cases, requirements for a "degree" is used to measure "basic skills" competence rather than expertise in the desired field.
Look how many times an employer will pass over a qualified "non-degreed" person only to have that "non-degreed" person "teach" a fresh upstart out of college "the ropes".
Permitting (and sometimes REQUIRING) the use of aptitude tests would be beneficial to both the employer and job-seeker by measuring REAL competence, not the perceived (sometimes false) competence of the individual that a "degree" is supposed to infer.

Hire women who will shoot
Go ahead and hire the women that fail the PAT, just be sure they have no qualms about using deadly force if they feel threatened, and the right to use such force. Isn't the aim of our society to make sure your feelings are respected?

OSHA
Gee, I wonder if removing (or lowering) the PAT requirements would put the Department of Corrections in violation of OSHA? I mean, if a prison riot would put female Corrections officers in grave physical danger because they can't physically do the job, wouldn't that trigger an OSHA investigation?

I can't imagine why ANY woman would want to be a prison guard, but I also don't believe that MALE Corrections Officer should be put in danger to satisfy some stupid feminist rant.

TJ
Clearly you do not have a college degree. I used to hear this same complaint early in my career from people who did not have a college education who were upset because employers started requiring a degree in order to move into management. Well, guess what? There is nothing stopping you from getting a college degree, if that's what it takes to move ahead. In fact, even 30 years ago when I was starting my career, the company would PAY your tuition to go to college at night. And no whining about how going to college at night is impossible. I went to graduate school at night and got an MBA - paid for in large part by my employer.

As long as physical or mental aptitude can be shown to be necessary for the successful performance of a particular job, it is a relevant criteria for employment. And by the way, the reason that the college degree was required, but not a particular major, is because the company believes a degree shows you have the aptitude to LEARN the things necessary for success in a particular position - NOT that you already know these things. Want to prove your aptitude? Do the work necessary to fulfill the entrance requirements!

How ridiculous
A prospective applicant should find out the physical requirements and if necessary, train for it. Lift 85 pounds and drag 185 pounds? That's not really that difficult. Do a little weight training before showing up for the test.

Harder for women to do this than men? Yup. Too bad. Everyone has obstacles to overcome. The answer is not to lower the standards for everyone else, but to raise your own.

Tests
The purpose of a test is to see if someone qualifies for the job - to discriminate between those who qualify and those who don't. Otherwise, just anyone could be a brain surgeon or airline pilot - or...

On Spot
Yes I am a feminist, but if a fire occurs, and I am unconscious, I want a person who has passed the physical to rescue me. I do not want a person who could not pull me out of a tight spot.

Idiocy
This society is filled to the brim with idiots and especially in gov.

PAT and other physical qualifying test
ANY PHYSICAL TEST, would be ok as long as the guards who are working must re qualify for their positions. UNLIKE some military where the guys/gals get as overweight and unable as the general population (in the usa)
Of course, its been like this forever.. IT needs to change and law suits that try to get unqualified applicants a job are not the answer. Re-qualifying those overweighters under breathers (too fat to cut the mustard as the old song goes).

LETS GET REAL... same test should be appllied at random to any guard or fireman if they must pass physicals to get hired!

Hoimie

"Discrimination"
It all just makes me sick to my stomach. The Obama administration is all about getting re-elected and pandering to left-wing women in an attempt to get the votes of all females is their modus operandi for that and everything. Next year can't come too soon.

http://www.periodictablet.com

Politicians enact lawyer employment acts
The federal, and for that matter state and local governments really shouldn't be involved in telling people how to run thier businesses. Governments should restrict themselves to resolving disputes among citizens regarding crimes including fraud. Government has restricted our right to contract with others, resulting in opportunities for lawyers and unhappy people to sue others for what amount to grievances: "I'm not paid as much as he is" or "my working conditions in the field aren't comfortable" or "He won't hire me because I'm black, female, small, not a Christian, not a Muslim, transgendered ...".

When government intervenes in private consensual matters, it makes us all poorer, and generally makes those it's saying it's helping (like the disabled) worse off. On the other hand, it makes politicians richer thanks to political contributions from lawyers, and it makes lawyers like John Edwards rich.

I believe people should be free to discrimate for whatever reason they want (not that I support racism, sexism, etc.) I think it's wise to choose responsibly (i.e. discriminate based on skills, character, etc) and decisions based on racism and other isms are usually at a personal price.

reply to standhisground
Thanks. Much appreciated. It would probably help clarify political debate in this country--and perhaps even discourage some of the whack jobs on the extremes--if conservatives understood that there are deep differences between liberals and those on the far left. As a generalization, liberals think that American society is better to the extent that needless barriers to individual achievement are reduced or eliminated. Such barriers are established by retention of traditions of racial and gender discrimination (which are generally supported by conservatives). We think there is a great difference between what a person is and what he or she does. If someone says "Mr. Smith is gay--therefore he shouldn't be allowed to enlist in the US military," we ask: "What does his sexual orientation have to do with his potential for serving his country in the military?" Or, when someone says "Women are less successful than men in the physical sciences," we ask: "Does that mean girls should be prevented from studying the sciences in school?" We think of our position as genuinely 'American,' and do not find any need to give our loyalties to enemies of this country. [Conservatives think that anyone who holds the positions we do simply IS an enemy of this country.]

People on the far left mindlessly reject the possibility that there is anything good in American society and will take the side of America's enemies reflexively. From a liberal standpoint, such leftists are almost always murky, overly abstract ideologues who are never really able to explain what kind of society they prefer.

Biology is Real
The more we learn about human biology the more we learn that the feminists are wrong -- biology is REAL and there is no getting around it.

The People's Republic of Taxachusetts (where I once lived), seems an unlikely place to take a stand on this idea but if sane people there are ready to draw a firm line on the concept that some jobs have physical requirements that MUST NEVER be compromised then I say Go Mass!

In justice department
I have never seen or heard of a female ss agent (secret service) that is assigned to protect the president(s), past or present or ex.

Are they discriminated against?
Are there tests that are male advantaged?

I think the just-
ice department should look into this oversight/predjudice.

adios,
ab
lancaster, taxifornia
push 1 for english in america you gringo dummies

gitmo
are there military female guards at guantanamo?
Justice Department: You lie.

adios,
ab
lancaster, prop8ifornia
push 1 for english in the good ol usa

GESTELL
Kudos on the common sense commentary; and thanks! Though I am a man, I am to be considered too old, and too fat; to pass that PAT. Maybe, I can sue for a job I don't have the physical wherewithal to perform. Or, maybe I'll just save lives, and support those who can.

I do, however, take exception to your characterization of "conservatives". First, there is no monolithic conservative population. Second, I don't know any conservatives, who support traditions that foster racial, or gender discrimination. Most of us distrust extremists, (on any side of an issue); and obviously not everyone agrees on that which constitutes extremism.

To me, a primary liberal/conservative divide; is one of personal responsibility. Sensible liberals (those I have known and loved) object to people suffering disadvantages for reasons outside their control. They want the disadvantaged to get assistance. Nothing wrong with that. Sensible conservatives (those I have known and loved) believe in the power of free will, of personal choice. They want people not to morph poor decision making into disadvantage; thereby minimizing the need for most assistance. Nothing wrong with that.

As a one time liberal, I remember and know what it's like to see someone in a bad way, and wonder, "Why doesn't the government help that them?" "Why doesn't somebody do something?" As the conservative I have become, I am now aware that historically, government assistance has often proven more destructive than helpful. It should always be temporary. Also, assistance is useless, destructive and enabling; when the recipient has not corrected their method of making choices. As a man, I cannot speak much do gender discrimination. I would not want to do most of those things anyway! As a Black man, I cannot think of a time when my race was a primary determinant in my success, or failure.

You seem cool. I hope we can talk more on the issues.

GESTELL
I much appreciate the common sense of recognizing the clear, natural, and normal physical strength and endurance differences between men and women. Thank you for those wise words.

I do, however take exception with the characterization of conservatives as this monolithic body who all think alike. Like any other group, conservatives would need serious discussion to decide what to order on a pizza. We do not all think alike. Furthermore, I, as a conservative, don't know anyone who supports the traditions of racial and gender discrimination "generally supported by conservatives". I also don't know many who would consider you "un-American", by simple virtue of your liberal belief structure. I think you have been hanging out with the "wrong conservatives".

Sensible liberals (the ones I have known and loved)simply want disadvantaged people to get assistance. Nothing wrong with that. Sensible conservatives (the ones I have known and loved) simply want people not to morph their poor decisions into a disadvantage, which then require assistance.

All men are created equal. All effort, all preparation is not. Equalizing outcomes, is not. It's not even fair!

You seem cool. Enjoyed reading your comments.

Joseph of TN
Great job - great insights. When politicians and citizens in general argue with stereotypes,you know they are missing the boat and you will have a hard time getting on it. I would suggest that the average liberal and moderate conservative are way closer than the average liberal and the average left winger who gets too much air and print time. Then, the vast moderate conspiracy is left without a spokesperson because we aren't news.

clarification for Wayne
If it ain't broke, don't break it.

There's an old saying...
That (unfortunately) I can't place the author's name. It goes "Common sense isn't common and doesn't make much sense". "Common Sense" as a title of the pamphlets written supporting the constitution in 18th century America was a great title. Virtually everyone involved had a common frame of reference. If you remember that the malcontents responsible for bringing us to the point that something which is logical and necessary for job performance (and safety) can be considered antithetical to the goal of removing all "barriers" to women performing masculine jobs (which 40 to 60 percent are patently incapable of)have consciously rejected the frame of reference which over 80 percent of the US populace. They con't care about reality. They only care about their socialistic/fascistic utopian ideals.

reply to Joseph
Thank you. I seldom get replies like this on TH. My generalizations about conservatives are based on two considerations: (1) I am familiar with most serious American conservative political writing of the past half-century or so. I know that most of the intellectual founding fathers of American conservatism were extremely hostile to any liberal program that was aimed at reducing discrimination or addressing any barriers facing any group. the big guns of the intellectual Right were dead-set against any and all civil rights legislation, for instance. (2) I also read TH daily, as well as a number of conservative columnists. This gives me an idea of what today's non-intellectual conservatives are saying, and they're no better than the old-timers. It is very, very difficult for conservatives to find in their own ideology any principles that even allow them to recognize the kinds of problems to which liberals draw attention. (3) Conservatives, unless they are to be idle dreamers, believe that some earlier condition of American society is preferable to the way things are now, and seek to recover as much of that earlier golden age as they can. I contend that, if they take this task seriously, conservatives must wind up defending racial and gender barriers as parts of American tradition.

If PAT is not relevant, then...
By the same token, we should not reject students who apply to Harvard on the basis of bad grade at high schools or bad SAT tests. Grades and test scores are no more relevant to beiong a good students in Elite university than physical fitness were to prison guards!

Some thoughts and question
Whenever I see female prison guards or police officers or military personnel, I wonder;

Are they really going to protect us?

There are some female security guards in the company I work for, so sighting them is not uncommon. But everytime I see them, I wonder, if something happens, do we (civilian men) need to protect these women instead? For example, if female officer was confronting intruders or criminals, and looks like on the verge of being overpowered, should I as a man show some chavinistic side and step in to help this hapless woman? If the officer was man, I don't have to ask this question to myself.

Also, if criminals attack female police officer, would it come with a heavier sentence since in addition to attacking officer, he is committing "violence against women", a crime which could carry another hefty sentences? or the fact that the attacked officer was woman elicit enough sympathy for her and anger towards the attacker to punish him with heavier sentence?

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE TASK
This is simply another case of the Obama Administration not knowing what they are doing. To make a civil rights case out of people of any gender not being able to perform a physical test for job placement is ridiculous. Our local police department has a physical test requirement which excludes men from time to time who are drasitcally overweight and cannot perform the task. It also does the same for women who cannot perform the same task.

If the MA test excludes men who can't do it as well as women then it's a fair test. The fact that more women applicants than men can't pass is not a matter of discrimintation at all. Maybe the Obama Administration will require more wimpy little men apply so the failure rate will be the same between men and women. Perhaps that would make everyone happy.
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