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Thursday, April 23, 2009
Cliff May :: Townhall.com Columnist
Shock Therapy
by Cliff May
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Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind behind the terrorist atrocities of Sept. 11, 2001. If U.S. intelligence operatives had spotted him in a remote area of Pakistan, and killed him with a Predator missile, most people would have said: "That's justice."

Instead, of course, KSM was captured in an urban area of Pakistan by U.S. intelligence operatives who then interrogated him -- including through use of the technique known as waterboarding -- thereby leaving him alive and eliciting from him information about other terrorist plots in which innocent Americans had been targeted. Why are so many people insisting that's an injustice, a scandal and a crime for which intelligence operatives and former government officials ought to be prosecuted?

During a time of asymmetrical war, such questions deserve serious debate. But the current administration doesn't appear to have the patience and much of the mainstream media don't seem to have the interest.

President Obama ordered a review of "enhanced interrogation techniques" (EITs) to determine which he would -- and would not -- authorize. Presumably, he'd want to know which techniques are (A) effective, and (B) not so brutal as to rise to the level of torture. But the President's decision to release -- against the advice of his CIA director and four former CIA directors -- top secret Justice Department memos on the interrogation program have rendered that study moot.

On the same day those memos were released, Obama's national intelligence director, Admiral Dennis Blair, told colleagues in a private memo that the now banned EITs did indeed "produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists."

Over the weekend, the Washington Post ran a front-page piece on "ethicists" alleging that psychologists and physicians who supervised CIA interrogations "broke the law and shame the bedrock ethical traditions of medicine and psychology."

Left unexamined was the likelihood that these health professionals had been tasked with ensuring that interrogations did not cross reasonable legal, medical and ethical boundaries, did not reach the point that they would "shock the conscience" which, as former CIA Director Michael Hayden told Fox News' Chris Wallace, is the "American standard" for torture. Hayden added: "You have to know the totality of circumstances in which something takes place before you can judge whether or not it shocks the conscience."

Among the released memos is one from then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee emphasizing that waterboarding "will be stopped if deemed medically necessary to prevent severe mental or physical harm." Another memo makes clear that supervising physicians were empowered to stop interrogations "if in their professional judgment the detainee may suffer severe physical or mental pain or suffering." What's severe? Again, circumstances matter and judgments may differ. Attempting to criminalize such differences is appallingly unethical -- not least when done by people who call themselves "ethicists."

Former Justice Department attorney David Rivkin has pointed out that the EITs described in the memos had been adapted from a U.S. military training program "used for years on thousands of American service members with the full knowledge of Congress." That meant also that there was a large body of information on which to draw regarding both the effectiveness and the physical/psychological impact of the techniques.

What's more, extraordinary measures were taken to protect even the vilest subjects. Al-Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah was slammed against only a flexible wall, with cushioning around his neck to prevent neck injury. In the end, he provided the intelligence used to capture KSM who in turn "yielded critical information" -- according to one of the released memos -- that helped foil additional terrorist plots including a "Second Wave" with Los Angeles as the target.

Terrorists are not criminal defendants with a "right to remain silent." They are not prisoners of war obligated only to recite only name, rank and serial number. They are "not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention." Those are the words of Eric Holder, Obama's Attorney General (on CNN, January 2002) who added that had Mohamed Atta "survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not."

Reasonable people ought to be able to reach consensus on a few key points: Harsh interrogation methods should be used only as a last resort. They should never be used for revenge, punishment or to force confessions. There should be no torture -- no hot pokers through the eyes, no pulling fingernails out with pliers. But a few nights of sleep deprivation? A few weeks of boredom? Scaring with caterpillars? Such techniques inflict "stress and duress" but they hardly "shock the conscience" -- especially when weighed against what ought to be the much more shocking prospect of letting hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent men, women and children be slaughtered.

By all means, let's have a decent respect for the opinions of others. But let's not sacrifice a single American life to score public relations points in the cafes of Europe. Nor should we delude ourselves into believing that kinder, gentler American interrogations will prevent otherwise peace-loving Muslims from signing up to suicide-bomb kindergartens and saw off the heads of captured infidels.

We should fight this war in as civilized a manner as possible -- understanding that this is a war against an enemy who is utterly ruthless and unscrupulous and who should not be permitted to prevail anytime, anywhere.

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About The Author

Clifford D. May is the President of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

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Bush must be a sadist?!
The raging debate centers around two issues:
Did the enhanced questioning constitute a torture, and whether this type of questioning worked. The first is a matter of debate between two differing points of view, which have polarized the two sides as no other issue, not even the matter of abortion.

With respect to the effectiveness of such questioning, that is a matter of cold facts. It either provided us with additional useful information or it didn't. Though there is a great deal of speculation, suggesting that such methods produced nothing, are useless, or even counterproductive, the cold facts indicate that there was indeed a lot of actionable intelligence gained that way.

If these methods were not expected to produce anything of value, than, the people involved were not trying to save us from further carnage, but rather sought some sort of sadistic retribution against the terrorists. In other words, the right, and especially anyone associated with GWB must not be allowed the slightest benefit of doubt - they are sadists.

To err is human. In case of national security I would expect that our government would choose to err on the side of safety. To have acted otherwise would have been irresponsible in the extreme.

Neil
Your way of thinking dooms you, which I personally feel you have every right to do. Leaders of groups of people (a nation of 300+ millions) need to avert danger for their constituents. Morality and international agreements don't supersede the right of a leader to safeguard those who give him his office and trust him with their lives. Obviously you are dead wrong. You can’t fight a man with a deadly intent with humane compassion because YOU are dead! What’s so hard to understand about that? You can go ahead and scream your hate for the Bush administration, and come up with all kinds of theorems, but in practice, I am glad that it was not one of you (even if you appear to represent the majority), who made decisions over me and my family’s life these past seven years.
Your last paragraphs, make you the epitome of a traitor. Airing "dirty laundry" makes for a superpower? Where? In the land of Oz, not in the real world! Get your head out of where-ever you stuck it, and smell reality!

Tortured
I read many rationalizations in this discussion for the torture of this man. None of them matter a whit, the US is a signatory to international agreements against those types of actions. That the Bush administration found a way to "legalize" waterboarding through legal opinions from their inhouse goons is only a symptom of their corruption. Those who found a way to employ these torture techniques aren't brave patriots working hard to protect us but cowardly thugs only interested in compromising our national principles and subverting our laws and international agreements. I'm not necessarily for charging those Bush administration officials who found a way to torture our enemies but I'm not against it either. We need to air our dirty laundry for all the world to see so that we can again take our place as the world's leading superpower in all ways.

By the way, what do you think was learned from the 183rd waterboarding of KSM that wasn't learned from the 1st, the 3rd or the 121st?

Waterboarding: It seems to have worked
Some people who should know say it worked. Some say it didn't. It did give us the information that saved the Brooklyn Bridge and an attack on LA.
We don't have two good choices. Waterboarding isn't torture in my opinion, but it is very coercive (and don't tell me dropping a caterpillar on someone is torture, either) Nontheless, it is wrong. However, knowing that someone has information that can save thousands of lives and not using the most extreme legal means to obtain it is also wrong. We don't have the choice between a good thing and a bad thing here, but a choice between two lousy alternatives. You know, sort of like most of the choices we make in life. It is also immoral to know that a terrorist has information that can save lives and not make every step possible to get it.

NEConservative
Do you think that there is something inconistent with the idea that some roadblocks were erected under Clinton and others under Bush? I am not sure why you think that what you said contradicted what I said.

According to an advisor to Condaleeza Rice who was involved in these discussions, one of the bad effects of the torture was that the information through torture was kept separate from the information obtained by the FBI since the FBI did not want to infect its own court cases. This has been confirmed by a questioner from the FBI who was present for the successful questioning of Zubaydeh without torture, but was pulled out when the decision to torture was made.

Except that IT IS NOT TORTURE
The problem with the national discussion, and it has infected the comments here, is that the DEFINITION IS BEING CHANGED. The question is not should we allow torture. The question is why have we CHANGED the definition of torture to include things that ARE NOT TORTURE.

Now, are liberals simply stupid? Or do they know they are lying and twisting the truth? I say the latter. They know they are deceiving.

Cliff May has set forth why these techinques do not meet the definition of torture. That is the issue.

Torture??
Weren't the poor souls jumping to their death from a burning building on September 11th tortured?

Wasn't Danny Pearl tortured when he was murdered and beheaded?

I'm not sure why we, as Americans, should be kissing the backsides of the terrorists that were responsible for these acts of torture.

Maybe, instead of waterboarding known terrorists in order to obtain important information on future targets... we should be very nice to them and make them feel more comfortable (that seems to be what the liberals want). Then, when they blow something else up and kill more people, we can say... "Oh sh*t, maybe we should have used waterboarding."

TWO NIGHTS AGO ON THE 11 PM NEWS...
ON CBS out of Charleston, SC--I saw a horrific video of terrible torture of a truck driver whom the King of the country (somewhere near Afganistan--couldn't catch where) decided he'd cheated the Gov't. The man was beaten, punched, forced to swallow sand, and paddled with a 1X4 with a nail in it--then ran over with an SUV. The KING ORDERED IT AND LOOKED ON! This king is being cowtowed to by BO; the video was smuggled out by a man seeking asylum in the US. It was AWFUL! WHY no coverage of this by the other media? WHY no more on CBS?? This king is one we are supposedly supporting with our tax dollars!
Can we find out more??

You librats
would have an entirely different attitude if one of your loved ones was killed by these cowards! I know that I wouldn't hesitate to kick the bejesus out of one of these pukes in they killed one of mine!

You are dealing with religious zealots who have one mantra, to kill infidels (defined as every non-muslim person). They understand and rightly fear torture because every civilization in history has used it for various means.

I find it very sickening that there wasn't same outrage over guys being tortured in VietNam. It doesn't matter why they were tortured, either.

International law has forbidden torture under rules of war since WWII, but the countries that we fight never honor it, so I say WE SHOULDN'T EITHER!

And Hal, crawl back in you rat hole, you freaking coward! I dare say that you would have cracked under just the threat of torture!

2fer deal
Yes, absolutely correct NEconservative.

I have a great idea for libs/terrorists: We send a terrorist to each liberals' house to live in their basement. On the first night, the terrorist lops off the head of the stupid liberal, then, we take out the terrorist in a self defense deal. It's a good 2fer deal.
The USA gets cleaned up quickly at a 2 to 1 rate and decent conservatives can then live in peace.

Red Cross email soliciting help for v
The White House planned a bold and insensitive move on that very day .Obama was making his way back through the Capitol corridors after his swearing in it..

http://www.idolreplicas.com/breitling-replica-watches.html
http://www.idolreplicas.com/chopard-replica-watches.html
http://www.idolreplicas.com/patek-philippe-replica-watches. html
http://www.idolreplicas.com/iwc-replica-watches.html

Lon said.
"And that having tortured wound up screwing up the flow of evidence between various agencies."

Bill Clinton "screwed up" the flow of evidence between agencies. He instituted the roadblocks there. George Bush's team brought down the roadblocks. That was discovered in the whole fight about FISA warrants. Typical liberal, blame everything on Bush. Have you all successfully nailed Bush down as the grassy knoll shooter?

Obama is a traitor
Hey let's face it, he's an appeaser of muslim extremists and communists, case closed.
I wonder if, as the column started, KSM was killed by the predator drone and could never have been water boarded into telling about the Brooklin Bridge plot or the LA terror plot, or the U.S. terrorist cell and the acts happened, would these allegience-challenged liberals feel the same way? When they do happen Don't put a tin can in front of me at a red light or send me a Red Cross email soliciting help for victims of the next terrorist attack. Especially since it's going to happen in a liberal city. It's practically etched in stone. You'll all have YOUR president to thank for it and your Congress. And I don't want to see you losers standing on the steps of the Capitol singing God Bless America either.

Taft
Thanks for that.

My point exactly.

Former FBI agent



It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.

Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh’s capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May. ...

You want me on that wall....
"You have weakened a country today Caffey".

Have you ever stood a post, son?


Meaningful Discussions?
So now we have the hordes wanting "Meaning Discussions".

Say, can someone name the last time we had a "meaningful discussion" that actually solved anything?

And what exactly would be resolved if we had a "meaningful discussion" about physical interrogations of prisoners?

We have a side to this argument that simply wants to make the claim that the United States tortures. And when they could not find any real instances of torture to support their claim, they resorted to labeling water-boarding as torture -- so as to have some. And the purpose for their wanting the notion of "torture" out there, was just another in their efforts to defeat President Bush in the War on Terror.

And so now, this same side wants to pretend as if they want an honest investigation. But what they really want, is to investigate, ask questions and basically - fish - to hopefully land something they can use against Rumsfeld, Cheney or Bush. They are the ultimate targets - not some lawyers who gave their opinions.

"Meaningful discussions"...my behind!

Bush's mistake
Bush's mistake was in not letting the FBI do their job. In 2002, the FBI walked out, saying they would not do interrogations Bush's way.

Keep in mind that the FBI is comprised of interrogation experts. It's one of the things we absolutely specialize in. On the other hand, it's not what the CIA specializes in; it's not what the military specializes in.

In retrospect, who was right? Bush & Cheney with their illegal torture methods, or the FBI? Personally, I can tell you that the FBI would have been best for the job.

LIBS HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WITH ME
The are outraged and weep at the discomfort of the most evil of the world while championing the killing of the innocent unborn. Perhaps lead poisoning is more humane? I hope our republic can hang on for another year and a half. Checks and balances are not existant and the house is being led by the president of San Francisco. By the way, Miss California is not Miss USA, but Miss United States of America in my view.

Christian conscience
Yes, let's shock the terrorist’s conscience. These jokers think...no! Let’s rephrase it: "know" it's OK to kill the infidels. I have no doubt; I've read their Koran. Lawmakers listen up! If you truly love those around you, show some decency and shock these Cretans to the core. Get them to agree, somehow, "They are killing people." Once that happens, give them a hug.

ONLY LIBERALS WEEP FOR THE TERRORIST
WE WILL NEVER FORGET 911,GOD BLESS OUR BRAVE TROOPS AND PRESIDENT BUSH.

ONLY LIBERALS WEEP FOR THE EVIL DUDES
THE REST OF US SUPPORT THE CIA AND OUR BRAVE TROOPS.AND WE WEEP FOR THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES ON 911.

Curious
Why did May quote out of context a comment by Blair from an argument that our torture policy did far more harm than good to our cause? The likely answer is because it is hard to find serious people who say anything better in support of torture.

If one read May's article as if he was making a serious argument, the natural conclusion would be that there should be some kind of investigation of what occurred. Many of the red lines he draws are ones that it appears were crossed. So is it likely that he supports such an investigation? Of course not.

His adaptation of the Nazi defense of their enhanced interrogation techniques is meant to blow smoke not light.

He repeats the idea that torture in 2003 enabled us to foil a plot in 2002. He ignores the evidence coming out that we got most of our information from Zubaydah before we began torturing him.

In fact there is now evidence, including from an FBI interrogator who was there, that the CIA did not really want the torture, that was pushed on them by contractors and the Bush administration. And that having tortured wound up screwing up the flow of evidence between various agencies.

But if May is serious then I would certainly join him in wanting to get as much information out as possible so that a meaningful discussion can take place. (Although oddly while calling for this discussion he objects to the release of information that has enabled us to discuss it. This is true even though the memos in question are no longer operative and so do not tell al qaeda anything about what they would be subject to if captured).

HAL
"Weak people losing a war use torture."

That is easily the most asinine combination of words I have heard this week (along with what you were trying to convey by saying it). I believe the only thing that could have made that statememt more inane is by preceding it with "Confucius say...".

I don't typically agree with a thing Taft says, but I do here. The only real problem with this is that the folks having the debate (both sides) don't really have all of the pertinent facts at hand. This is yet another thing that is being handled by politicians (again, both sides) that lost touch with the people long ago.

9/11 Terror and torture
We need to review the films of 9/11.
We need to remember the people jumping from the burning buildings. -The horror of those with their skin melting off in the elevators. -Those with their throats slit on the airplanes and the others doomed to death at the hands of these terrorists.

Then we can talk about "torture." The methods used to stop this from happening again-


May
Weak people losing a war use torture.

May
We execute criminals in the US too, but we don't torture them. You see, the difference is that when we do kill terrorists, with drones or bullets, its to stop them, not to be sadistic. Our country will not become a torture nation, no matter how the right tries to spin it. We are not the Gestapo or the KGB, we are Americans!

Miranda Rights
Let's just read the Miranda rights to every captured Islamic Jihadist, bring them home, expose them to our dopey lawyers and after convicting them we have them lined up in front of a firing squad, ostensibly dipping the ammo in pigs blood and executing them on live TV.
It worked in Indonesia, the Jihadists disappeared for over 20 years.
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