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Thursday, March 20, 2008
Cliff May :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Long War
by Cliff May
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Five years ago this month, American troops liberated Iraq from Saddam Hussein. Then came the hard part.

American intelligence had been wrong about Saddam’s stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction: They were nowhere to be found. Most academic experts had failed to perceive the currents of religious extremism and sectarianism running just beneath Iraq’s secular surface. State Department consultants and U.N. advisors proved unequal to the task of building democratic political institutions quickly from scratch

The media had understated Saddam’s barbarism: It had been too risky to report in depth on the mass graves Saddam filled with dissidents; the tens of thousands of Kurds gassed to death in their villages; the camps where Saddam trained terrorists for assignments abroad. As a consequence, few anticipated how severely Iraqis had been traumatized.

And America’s military, so adept at bringing down a dictator, was unprepared for the “small war” that would follow: terrorist attacks on innocent Iraqis that the “international community” would blame not on the perpetrators -- but on America.

Like most military strategists of the late 20th century, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld envisioned wars of the 21st century as akin to computer games. Advanced technology, more than blood and sweat, was supposed to be decisive. And in a place like Iraq, it was believed, the U.S. “footprint” should be as light as possible because close proximity to American soldiers would surely incite the natives to violence.

The result of so many errors and misjudgments was catastrophic. Three years after the liberation of Iraq from Saddam, much of the country had been taken over by al-Qaeda. Other areas were under the sway of Iranian proxies, in chaos, or close to civil war.

Iraq’s military had been disbanded by the American envoy, L. Paul Bremer. America’s forces were cooped up in heavily guarded Forward Operating Bases (FOBs) waiting for actionable intelligence that seldom arrived. When it did, they would drive their vehicles to battle down roads their enemies had lined with bombs.

Finally, after the 2006 election rebuke to President Bush, a new Defense Secretary, Robert Gates, was assigned to the Pentagon, and a new commander, Gen. David Petraeus, was deployed to the field of battle. American forces set out to liberate Iraq -- for a second time.

The Petraeus strategy was nothing if not counter-intuitive: He gave the enemy more targets and assigned them to more vulnerable positions – outside the well-guarded FOBs and in the shadowy streets. But once the Iraqis understood why the Americans were there – to defend them from terrorists – they provided a wealth of intelligence. Before long, Americans and Iraqis were fighting side by side against their common Islamist enemies.

That was historic. It should have been big news. But the media were not much interested. As one well-known reporter told me: “It doesn’t matter.” The important action, he said, was taking place not in Baghdad but in Washington where politicians were reading the polls and finding Americans discouraged and ready to cut their losses.

What’s more, such groups as MoveOn.org – heavily invested in an American defeat they could blame on Bush, Cheney and the “neo-cons” – had a well-funded plan, “Iraq Summer,” that was to make it politically untenable for members of congress to continue to support the Iraq mission.

What this perspective failed to take into account: The startlingly rapid progress that Petraeus and his troops would make against al-Qaeda and the Iranian backed militias. That was coupled with a battle of ideas on the home front: Tenacious pro-mission groups – e.g. Vets for Freedom, Families United, the American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Move America Forward, Freedom’s Watch -- formed a loose but effective coalition that matched MoveOn.org congressional contact for congressional contact, and told the stories most reporters would not.

One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled.

What one can not say is that regime change in Iraq was unjustified: Not if you know Saddam’s record, his clearly stated intentions, and his ties to international terrorists --including, as a new Pentagon report reveals, a group headed by Ayman al-Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's second-in-command.

Nor can one say that the outcome in Iraq – the heart of the Muslim Middle East – will be inconsequential to the outcome of the wider war being waged by militant, supremacist Islamist movements intent on nothing less than the destruction of America and the West.

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About The Author

Clifford D. May is the President of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

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Understanding the War
Lolo1 writes: "..,if you even understood a modicum of modern history or a modicum of the ME and what their culture is comprised of, you would have understood the light footprint theory."

Town Hall columnist Cliff May in his column of March 20, 2008, also makes reference to "the light footprint theory." And as far as understanding the Middle East and its culture, May also wrote:

"One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled."

The Iraq War, as John McCain has repeatedly stated, was bungled for FOUR YEARS by Donald Rumsfeld, whom Pres. Bush stood by until the end, even as casualties mounted by the hour

How long should it take to learn from "mistakes?" How many of our troops paid with their lives due to Pres. Bush's ill-timed decisions and "Golly Gee" Rumsfeld's blundering?

Cliff forgot about Gathering of Eagles
Cliff,

One factor you omitted from your analysis was the effect of the Gathering of Eagles putting boots on the ground to counter every major moonbat march/protest since March 2007.

In addition GOE members took to the streets to provide a patriotic example and alternative to the 'peace vigils' the moonbats had been holding virtually unopposed.

We were easily the most visible element of the push back to the left wing assault.

Dan Maloney
NY State Coordinator
Gathering of Eagles

Gastell
Thank you for being specific. Now we can debate. You apparently are unaware that the Dems asked SECDEF Gates and Gen. Casey about the qoutation you cited during a subsequent congressional oversight hearing. Guess what? They testified that Gen Abizaid was in agreement with the surge and even helped to plan it. You see, he disagreed with sending more troops under the PREVIOUS strategy. When he was informed about Gen. Petreus NEW strategy, he concurred and helped plan it.

Does that help you out?

Reply to Steve
Here's General Abizaid:

In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, General Abizaid said, “Senator McCain, I met with every divisional commander, General Casey, the corps commander, General Dempsey, we all talked together. And I said, in your professional opinion, if we were to bring in more American Troops now, does it add considerably to our ability to achieve success in Iraq? And they all said no. And the reason is because we want the Iraqis to do more. It is easy for the Iraqis to rely upon to us do this work. I believe that more American forces prevent the Iraqis from doing more, from taking more responsibility for their own future.” [Senate Armed Services Committee Testimony, 11/15/06]

So, now you've gotta parse this to make it come out the way you want. Go to it!

Also, whre's that treason warrant for Pat Buchanan?

reply to BIGSKYER
I'not sure I get your point. These officers expressed skepticism, reservation, or opposition to the surge. Most of them made their comments after they had retired. So, again, what's your point?

Gestell
You stated, "How come a number of retired flag officers, now joined by Admiral Fallon, have expressed serious reservations about various aspects of our Iraq strategy and our general aims in the region?"

Answer: Be specific. You are insinuating that the flag officers you mentioned want to surrender and retreat. What did they actually say? For example, you cited retired Gen. Abizaid. Bull! He helped write the surge strategy with Gen. Petreus! He is on board. I heard the liberals try to twist his words in a congressional oversight meeting once but Gen. Casey assured them that Abizaid is in agreement with the strategy. What exactly did he say that you INTERPRETED to be anti-war? What did Colin Powell and the others say and what do they say now? Please be specific. I think you are mischaracterizing their comments. I have watched the briefings of these fine officers and not once have I heard them say what you are saying that they said.

You claim I used a right-wing slur: "When you make comments like you did you are emboldening the enemy and thus prolonging the fight and costing American lives!" That is not a slur; it's the truth. In WWI and WWII you probably would have been prosecuted for treason (Along with the owner of the New York Times and some leakers in the CIA and Justice Departments.)





Lets have them set an example!
Gestell:

Lets suppose all the Officers you mentioned while in the course of their tenures as Commanders, were subjected to the same treatment they lay at Geo Bush's feet, were to openly critizie them in public by their junior cammanders, and threaten to or actually resign their postions in face of unsavory duty or disagreements with them. Seems to me a mutiny would be the charge. Lets say that during Desert Storm, Gen Schwartkopf gave Powell the middle finger and told him to Pi**off? If these deep thinkers are so opposed to the war and how it is being conducted by Bush, lets see them resign their commissions, and give up their retirement bennies if they feel that strongly. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting tthem to. What say you Gestell?

Jack, part II
Next, you blather on that it is cowardice to not take on all tyrants regardless of the cost to ourselves. That remark doesn't even deserve a response. It's too foolish.

Im regards to the Saudis, I haven't heard what you assert, that the Saudi people want to be liberated. Where did you get that idea? Those people seem more radical than even their monarchy.

I don't think Venezuelans want to be liberated either. They voted for Hugo.

The Palestinians voted for Hamas too. That is the will of the people so we should not topple their elected government.

I'm talking about tyrants that the people reject but cannot depose themselves. Raul Castro might be a good one to go after.

Jack, part 1
Wrong again, Jack. Iraqi expatriates DID ask the US to intercede to depose Saddam. They petitioned the US government emphatically. To say that "We imposed the death and destruction on them because we wanted to" reveals your hate-America-first mindset. You really need to change your attitude. America is the greatest country to ever grace this planet and does not invade countries capriciously as you shamefully assert.

You did ask one great question: "How do we decide if a country wants our help? That is why I said to choose wisely. For example, many people want us to invade Darfur to help out. Should we? I like the idea but only if the African Union and the UN shirk their moral imperative first and only if we are able to do it with acceptable losses/costs. That is a difficult decision. We can't depose all the tyrants all at once. We must prioritize.

Why did we help out in Bosnia, Kuwait, Lebanon and Somalia? Why do we still defend Taiwan and South Korea and much of Europe? How did the USA know that the countries I mentioned wanted our help? Answer that and you'll answer your own question. What about the Rwandan genocide? Was Clinton morally justified to sit that one out? Are you okay with genocide as long as it doesn't bother your tranquil life? Are you a Pat Buchanan isolationist?
Continued...

Done too soon!
I don't understand the differencee between this war, and the War with Japan. While Roosevelt didn't say it in so many words, the outcome would have been the same if Japan had succseded. So we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, and we were attacked on 9/11 by an enemy with the same intent as the Japanese. Did So what's a president to do? Sit back, twiddle his thumbs and do nothing after his country has been attacked?

Oh, I don't give Geo Bush a pass on the many things he did in conjunction with this war, but neither do I give Roosevelt a pass either, as he had lied to Congress in denying thar America wasn't helping the British materially. I and maybe a whole person of one me, is the only one who thiks this way, but the US should be chastised severely, for lightening up to soon on the Iraqi enemy. For instance, why wasn't a Military governor (like in Berlin) installed Unlike that civilian sap Bush installed) and kept in that capacity, ruling the roost, with a Constabulary to maintain the peace with orders to to shoot any Civilian caught waving an AK-47 or carrying an APG or other weapon, in short Martial Law until order had been restored. We did it for Germany and other Countries, why not Iraq?


WELL SAID
Dear Mr. May:

Though not of your political persuasion, I found your column, "The Long War," to be a remarkably candid commentary on the Iraq War, particularly when you write:

"One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled." Well said.

I do, however, take issue with your following statement:

"But once the Iraqis understood why the Americans were there – to defend them from terrorists – they provided a wealth of intelligence."

According to the President in Oct. 2002, we were focused on Iraq because, according to Mr. Bush, Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the United States and that we would go to war to ensure OUR national security and OUR survival.

The bottom line is that toppling Saddam Hussein has not made us any safer and certainly was not worth the lives of 4,000 of our brave military and the maiming of countless others, considering your analysis that "The result of so many errors and misjudgments (by Pres. Bush and his team) was catastrophic."

Isn't it time we hold the Bush bunglers accountable for the seemingly endless Iraq disaster which has undermined our nation and unnecessarily claimed the lives of and inflicted grave injury to too many of our military?

DaveF

reply to Steve


How come a number of retired flag officers, now joined by Admiral Fallon, have expressed serious reservations about various aspects of our Iraq strategy and our general aims in the region? Are they all traitors too? I cite the right-wing slur in your final line: "When you make comments like you did you are emboldening the enemy and thus prolonging the fight and costing American lives!"

Usually you don't trade in the conservative garbage that runs 'if you criticize what we're doing in Iraq, you'rd helping the enemy" Yeah, like Pat Buchanan, who has made his opposition to mot of American foreign policy clear for years? I guess he's a traitor too.

Here are some of the flags who've spoken out:

General Colin Powell
General George Casey
General John Abizaid:
General Joseph Hoar
General Barry R. McCaffrey
Major General Don Shepperd, USAF (Ret.):
General James T. Conway, Commandant of the Marine Corps

I guess these guys have violated their oaths. String 'em up!

Still a Crazy Notion
Steve,

There is soooo much wrong with your idea that its hard to know when to start.

We are NOT offering to help "citizens of other countries get the freedom they desire." No one in Iraq asked us to invade. We imposed the death and destruction on them because WE WANTED TO.

How do we decide if a country wants our help? Do they get to take a vote? IS there a critical mass. If a minority wants us to invade but the majority doesn't, what do we do? The Tamils would love for us to invade Sri Lanka? Is that good? The Basques would be delighted if we invaded Spain so they could set up their own nation. Hell, the Catholics in Northern Ireland would have greeted us as liberators if we had invaded in 1975.

Actually, the areas you say we have no mandate to invade would be the ones where we DO. The Saudi people are thoroughly repressed and would love to freed from the Royals. It woudl be easy too, because we would be fighting right alongside of Al Quaeda forces who also want to free saudi Arabia.

And then you think America has a moral imperative to invade if we can do so at an acceptable cost. You definitely don't understand what a moral imperative is. Your idea is the pinnacle of cowardice. We will be moral as long as we don't get hurt in the process? And what about the cost to the nation we invade, does that count?

Your idea is an absolute recipe for disaster on a worldwide scale.




Jack
You didn't read my entire post, Jack. At the end I said, "We are not superimposing our values; we are offering to help the citizens of other countries to get the freedom that THEY desire. Riots in Tibet, Burma, the old USSR, huge voter turnouts in Iraq and many other countries testify that the PEOPLE want to be free but their repressive governments (and the Jihadists) are willing to violently suppress freedom."

I am NOT saying we should just invade countries that don't want our help. If the people are being oppressed by tyrants and want help, then America does have a moral imperative to help them IF WE CAN DO SO AT AN ACCEPTAPLE COST. Some countries are simply too powerful so we have to choose wisely. In fact, the nations of the world share that moral imperative whether they think they do or not. African nations should be doing much more in the Sudan. Burma needs help from Asian countries.

As far as I can tell, Libyans do not want help. Neither do Egyptians, Saudis, or the UAE. But how about millions of Chinese? Tibetans? Taiwanese? Somalis? Ethiopians? Congonese? Lebanese? Iranians? Sure, they don't want to be invaded and bombed but they would probably like to have their corrupt governments overthrown and true democratic ones installed. There are ways to overthrow governments with minimal casualties.

Jack
Why would Iran be undermining the Iraqi government's progress if they they are okay with a free and democratic Iraq? That makes no sense. Our national intelligence reports, Bush, SECDEF Gates, the generals all say that Iran is interferring because a democratic Iraq hurts their nefarious plans. Success in Iraq will lead to the downfall of other tyrannical regimes or at the very least their suppression as in Libya. The Iraqi people and Turkey will spread the gospel of freedom if we and our Iraqi partners are successful. I agree that the process is slow and painful but the democratization of the region will have far-reaching positive consequences if we just hang in there.

Can you give some example of rights that have been lost under the new Iraqi constitution? I may be off-base here, but I'm not aware of any.

Biggest Crock I've Read in Ages
Steve, what are you thinking? "The USA has a MORAL responsibility to defend those too weak to defend themselves WHERE WE ARE ABLE TO DO SO"

Seriously. We have a moral mandate to invade and remake any nation we can. We get to be the ultimate determinant of right and wrong on earth?

So why no actions against Saudi Arabia? Why no liberation of Sudan. Chad? WHy no liberation of Kuwait. Bahrain? UAE? Why no attack on Egypt?

Your mindset is a recipe for massive disaster the world over.

No Steve. Jack Right
As I wrote: "they voted for a fundamentalist Sharia based Constitution."

This is perfectly true: The langauge in disopute was whetehr Haria woudl be listed as "THE" source for the law or as "A" source for the law. They opted for A source, but that still makes the COnstitution Sharia based.

I should not have said "Under Sharia they will have none of this.". But I can say that under the Constitution they will have less freedom in many ways than they had under Hussein, and that is particularly true of women.

Your analysis of what Iran wants is off base. They will be quite happy with a stable, Democratic Iraq, because it will the thier client state. In terms of the insurgency, Iran wins no matter what. If insurgents tie up American forces. Great. If thigns get stable and America leaves, Shia take over.


Jack
Wrong Jack. The Iraqi constitution is based on Islam but it stops short of calling for Sharia law. Plus, the constitution was written by the government. I referred to the Iraqi PEOPLE wanting freedom. They will get it with the help of the USA over time. That's why Bush warned us that this conflict will be a long one and unlike any other conflict that has gone before. Freedom is happening before the world's eyes.

You asserted that Sharia law is the law in Iraq now. That is false except for some isolated areas. The constitution does not call for Sharia law! That is one big reason Iran wants to thwart America's aims in Iraq. They want to recreate the ancient Islamic Shia caliphate which used to exist in the region. Since Iraq is dominated by Shias, it is the logical first target to try to spread their brand of Islam. They want Shia hegemony in the whole Middle East eventually. Getting the bomb is critical to that end.

Apollospeaks
You wrote: "History is proving that the Iraq invasion was the right thing to do. But history now demands that we stop benefiting and enabling the mullahs, that we get out of Iraq and move on to Tehran and put an end to their reign before they go nuclear."

Why don't we do both? I have heard the generals say that we could lauch a massive attack on Iran if called upon to do so right now. We have the ability to wage war in Afghanistan, Iraq and in Iran simultaneously if needed. However, we don't need to invade Iran... Yet. There is still time for diplomacy to work.

I don't think that anyone should spread the idea that we are incapable of attacking Iran while in Iraq. That only emboldens them. Of course, the more troops we have available the easier it would be but let's not put the cart before the horse.

Don't forget about Israel either. They could take care of business in Iran without us and I'm sure they will if they think Iran is about to get the bomb.

I wouldn't worry too much about Hezbollah and Hamas causing trouble either. They would have debilitating supply issues without Iran and Syria being able to resupply them sufficiently during a protracted Iranian war.

I wonder if any other countries in the world would be willing to help out against Iran? I would think a coalition of the willing could be formed again further decreasing the load on America.

gg-az
Wonderful post! The nattering nay-bobs of negativity continue to squeel about the mistakes that have been made without acknowledging progress is being made. They seem to be so focused on hating George Bush and the GOP that they miss the big picture every time.

Please... Stop playing politics with a war going on. Let us pull together and win this war.

Gestell
You stated, "What we should never have committed to was 'bringing democracy' to Iraq. It's not going to work, period. The surge, while it has had some effect, will fail once American troop strength in Iraq is reduced. The al-Qaeda forces will simply ramp up again."

Democracy is already working in Iraq. The Iraquis turned out in droves to vote several times UNDER FIRE! They have a congress debating the issues now. How can you declare that democracy isn't working in Iraq? It's slow, laborious and very contencious - just like the USA! We can't even reform the entitlement programs even though they threaten our financial solvency! What about immigration?

The only way we can lose in Iraq is to come home too early. Al-Qaeda can't 'ramp up again' if a sufficient security force is maintained. The Iraqi forces get stronger every day. American forces are already beginning to withdraw as the Iraqi forces take over but we need to let the enemy know that we will come back if needed in a flash. Be patient!

When you make comments like you did you are emboldening the enemy and thus prolonging the fight and costing American lives!

will
You stated, "The U.S. simply does not have a moral right to superimpose our vision of democracy onto muslim nations (it's one thing to depose a dictator that goes contrary to U.S. interests; it is quite another thing altogether to occupy a country & try to remake it over in our image, all the while having a president who says "all people everywhere yearn to be free")."

I hardly know where to begin... Which American values do you disagree with? Are you seriously saying that democracy is NOT superior to monarchies and dictatorships? You would allow tyrants to remain unmolested as long as they don't bother you? Perhaps you think that defending women from horrible torture, rape, stoning, and violent suppression of civil rights that you take for granted is not justified because those are just American morals that don't apply in other countries? Are you okay with tyrants invading weaker countries to take whatever they want as long as it doesn't bother you?

The USA has a MORAL responsibility to defend those too weak to defend themselves WHERE WE ARE ABLE TO DO SO. We can't stop China right now and we couldn't stop the old USSR but we can do a few at a time where the people WANT OUR HELP. Look at the friendships America has in the world due to our willingness to do come to their defense. America is a moral beacon.

We are not superimposing our values; we are offering to help the citizens of other countries to get the freedom that THEY desire. Riots in Tibet, Burma, the old USSR, huge voter turnouts in Iraq and many other countries testify that the PEOPLE want to be free but their repressive governments (and the Jihadists) are willing to violently suppress freedom.

Can't Believe the Lunacy Here
The understnading of Islam exhibited here is pathetic. Jim writes: "By empowering the historically more peace loving Iraqi Shiites we did more for the Muslim world than is ever given credit for." What?

The Sunni have historicaly been the most rational, least aggressive Islamic sect. The Shiia, (You know the one in Iran who now control Iraq) have been teh most aggressive! Get your basic facts straight! The Whabbist Sunni group is anti-Shia and opposed to secular Sunni's as well.

Then Steve writes "They (Iraqis) can see the difference and they want freedom at a visceral level." He ignores the fact that they voted for a fundamentalist Sharia based Constitution. It was under Saddam that they had radio, TV, etc. Under Sharia they will have none of this. Under Saddam, women were largely liberated and educated(they could even drive). All that is over now.

You people are amazingly ignorant of the facts on the ground

MDoggg
Only a real America hater could blame Saddam's evil acts on America. Your post is offensive and you should be ashamed of yourself.

We backed Saddam against Iran because Iran was holding Americans hostage for over a year. That was it. There are always unintended consequences. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

People like you would rather America not fight back because you hate America and want it to be defeated. Get lost.

jerabaub
You asked, "Bush apparently believes Islam to be compatible with the values inherent in free societies, in democratic societies. He has staked his entire presidency upon that belief.
But is it?"

Great question. I think the Moslems have already begun answering that question in the affirmative although they still have a ways to go.

Iraquis came out to vote several times in droves under great personal threat. I think the people want a representative form of goverment. They are sick and tired of corrupt tyrants intimidating them into submission. They know freedom works because they can see free countries prospering via television, radio, books, magazines and the testimonies of those returning from visiting those free countries. They can see the difference and they want freedom at a visceral level.

Don't be fooled by public professions; the majority still live under threat and can't risk reprisals or excommunication from their clans/tribes or communities. Most are too poor to survive if that were to happen.
Women are especially being awakened in Muslim societies. As they continue to find out that freedom is possible, they will fight (and die) for it.

The question for me is whether the cries for freedom from the majority will be enough to drown out the radicalized elements. That's one big reason why Iraq is important. Victory would embolden the people to rise up against the Jihadists. Withdrawal would embolden the radicals and thus set back the freedom movement.

The bright side
The bright side
The obvious win is that the Sunni feeling of inevitability was broken. Al Qaeda and Saudi Arabia were promoting Wahabism and on a roll. Allah was with them obviously. Now, not so much. By empowering the historically more peace loving Iraqi Shiites we did more for the Muslim world than is ever given credit for. Saddam was their biggest enemy and a barrier for the Sunnis. Now he is gone and the Sunnis and Shiites can continue their longstanding historical enmity with more even odds. A beautiful strategic win for the US and all the West!

Troops deserve a qualified CIC
Our volunteer troops deserve a qualified Commander in Chief for the Global War on Terror. There is no "waiting until 2012" issue here.

Our Military will not survive an Obama or Hillary.

http://Vets4McCain.com


The reason we are in Iraq
On March 18, in Washington, D.C. three official representatives of the Obama, Clinton and McCain campaigns came before Jewish leaders and promised their candidate’s complete subservience to Israel. The three representatives that spoke were Lawrence Eagleburger for McCain, Ann Lewis for Clinton, and Daniel Kurtzer, former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, for Obama.
The Washington Post (Audacity of Chutzpah, Dana Milbank, March 18, 2008) quotes Ann Lewis as saying:
“The role of the President of the United States is to support the decisions that are made by the people of Israel.”


p.s. lodestar : excellent comment on your your part .

tax cuts in a time of war
so long as I get to hang on to my precious tax cut, I am willing to soldier on, surrounded by enemy terrorists, as never before, in this War on Terror.

Hal Donahue:
“Did you ever serve in the military? If yes you know the above are lies if no”

My son is a Marine, but I can’t talk about it, and don’t need to talk about it to make my case. I clearly know the difference of the US before and after cultural Marxism. I also know the difference between a volunteer military and a draft. Your antiwar arguments only make sense if there is a draft. Your argument would be valid during Vietnam, but during the Iraq war we have a volunteer military, and everybody who is there has chosen to be, and continue to re-up every time they finish their tour. They want to fight this war and win this war and they want you cowards to get out of the way and stop thinking you speak for them.

“Actually it is you who seems the fearful coward and likely NRA member huddled in your bunker stroking your guns... there, there little fellow we moderates will protect you as we always have.”

My point is, if you would have actually read it, I’m not the one you have to fear, huddled in my bunker. It’s your own kids, who think nobody has the right to tell them what to do, (cultural-Marxism) who have been striped of everything that gives meaning to life. They form street gangs with all their own rules, and have spectacular suicides taking as many students down as they can with them.

So you don’t like me slamming the ACLU. What are you going to do, sue me? :)

AlphaOmega:
I have been fighting Cultural Marxism all my life. It is a lot bigger and more influential than you could ever imagine. If an Amish guy was running for president I would campaign against him because his irrational belief in nonviolence would make it impossible for him to carry out his responsibilities as Commander in Chief. Obama's antiwar position is an irrational belief in cultural Marxism, that it evil to use the military and that God is against those who are powerful, and for those that are weak or victims. It must be a campaign issue and he must never be above the position of Secretary of State.

Re: AlphaOmega and Hal Donahue
My only training is to understand and define people's beliefs, apologetics, describe it in a concise manner to them to provide prospective, then give them a ten step bridge to where they should be, and offer to take them one step at a time without offending their ideas of what is sensible. Take it or leave it.

folks
good nite and be well

chas = lies
"The only people, who oppose this war, are Cultural Marxists, who have an irrational and unbiblical belief that everybody in the world should have equal power, and that any use of force is evil, they spit on our military and called our police pigs, and they will not give our military, or any other military credit for their victory, or for success. "

LMAO do you want to come and tell that to the eight Iraqi War vets half of whom expect to return ti Iraq in the Fall? everything above is utter nonsense and fallen star limbaughisms. Did you ever serve in the military? If yes you know the above are lies if no, you are just another misguided extremist


"... In reality Christianity has always been imposed behind the barn to the backside of kids by a loving father."

was that before or after the were sexually abused by the "loving father"

"They are a subculture that is in despair, and no longer willing to impose or defend their way of life, or recognize anyone else's right to impose or defend their way of life."

Actually it is you who seems the fearful coward and likely NRA member huddled in your bunker stroking your guns... there, there little fellow we moderates will protect you as we always have.


"The ACLU is their KGB. They honor perverts instead of holy men. They honor the lazy instead of the productive. Cultural Marxists should never have a position in our government higher than secretary of state. "

LMAO the ACLU who defended Ollie North?? Holy men like Haggert and perhaps you? Hmmm "they" are the ones who won WWII and landed on the moon.

To Chas


Thank you , Chas, you just wrote a marvellous stew of a rant. You threw in everything that obviously bothers you, mixing slogans from way back in the Sixties (calling the police pigs), to today. I recognize all the traditional complaints of someone who doesn't know what to make of the society around him, but he knows that he doesn't like it.
Let me clue you in to some things, in the friendliest way possible. You shouldn't believe everything they feed you, even if they are conservatives, or the President or generals.
Also, people have a right to oppose the mindless militarism of someone like Bush, who had no idea what he was doing, going into Iraq, and still doesn't. That doesn't make them Cultyral Marxists or devils or anti-American or anything. It is our duty as American patriots to oppose the president when he harms our country.

I just have one question; you don't like Cultural Marxists as Sec. of state and above. Does that mean that it's OK for any position below, say Sec. of Agriculture?


To GG-AZ
All the examples that you mentionede are history, and we know the outcome and what constituted victory in each case.

When you say that the only exit strategy is VICTORY, can you tell us, in some detail, what we should consider VICTORY in the case of Iraq?

Antiwar suicide
The only people, who oppose this war, are Cultural Marxists, who have an irrational and unbiblical belief that everybody in the world should have equal power, and that any use of force is evil, they spit on our military and called our police pigs, and they will not give our military, or any other military credit for their victory, or for success. These were done by a despair subculture to cripple every part of our society, weaken our economy and to abrogate every legitimate authority and use or force in our society. Some have confused this with Christianity; by only emphasizing turn the other cheek verses. In reality Christianity has always been imposed behind the barn to the backside of kids by a loving father. They are a subculture that is in despair, and no longer willing to impose or defend their way of life, or recognize anyone else's right to impose or defend their way of life. They popularize cowardice. They are committing national suicide and want to bring everybody else down with them. Cultural Marxists only give credit to diplomacy in solving differences between groups of people. They fear “the man” has too much power so they insist love is all you need. This directly causes everybody's kids to irrationally believe nobody has the right to tell me what to do. This cuts off the process of passing traditional family, traditional religion, traditional morality, patriotism, obeying laws, etc… to the next generation. Instead, kids form street gangs that make up all their own rules. They honor victims instead of military heroes. The ACLU is their KGB. They honor perverts instead of holy men. They honor the lazy instead of the productive. Cultural Marxists should never have a position in our government higher than secretary of state.

President Bush understood
President Bush fully understood these lessons of history -- and fully explained them on September 20, 2001:

"Americans are asking, 'How will we fight and win this war?'

We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the destruction and to the defeat of the global terror network.

Now, this war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success.

We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

The American people and the Congress overwhelmingly supported President Bush in this declaration. It's a shame -- or worse -- that so many have turned their backs on him and their duty.

Churchill
We need to learn from Churchill:

"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds are against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves."

"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events."

"We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. You ask, what is our policy? I say it is to wage war by land, sea and air--war with all our might and with all the strength God has given us--and to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy."

“You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory, however long and hard the road may be."

Give the President a break
President Bush isn't a Biblical prophet. You can't expect him to see the future. Even our greatest leaders never have:

(1) The Founders had no plan to defeat the British, and no idea how long the war would last. The ultimate victory was unexpected, after dreadful losses and defeats. But they pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to victory, and kept that pledge.

(2) Pres. Lincoln had no plan to win the Civil War at first. His first major action -- calling for 75,000 volunteers -- drove Virginia and most of the other border states out of the Union. The initial invasion of the South was repelled ignominiously at Bull Run (1st Manassas). Gen. Lee beat up the Army of the Potomac for years. The Democrats ran on a peace platform, and almost snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. Ultimately, Pres. Lincoln -- with Gens. Grant and Sherman -- persevered to victory.

(3) Neither Pres. Wilson, nor any of the Allied leaders, had any plan for winning WWI. They just kept on fighting until Germany -- unexpectedly -- collapsed and surrendered.

(4) Pres. Roosevelt had no plan at the outset of WWII, and hadn't even decided whether to focus on the European or Pacific theatre. The Normandy invasion had to be postponed a year, from 1943 to 1944. Our daylight bombing of Germany was a disaster before long-range fighter cover, though the bombers were supposed to be able to defend themselves. After Normandy and the break-out, we thought Germany would collapse by the end of 1944 -- and then were surprised at the Battle of the Bulge. Nevertheless, we persevered to victory.

The only exit strategy is VICTORY.

Please, Please Read These Articles
Google: "There Is No Such Thing As A War For Free". It's online via chicagotribune.com. This long article by Joseph Stiglitz (Nobel Prize in Economics) and Linda Bilmes (faculty Harvard, Kennedy School of Government) is LOADED with figures. It calculates the eventual cost of the Iraq war, which the authors estimate at $3 trillion, in comparison with Bush's original estimate of $50 to $60 billion.

Anyone even faintly interested in either the war or the present state of our economy should read this. And if you don't like the article because it is critical of the war and you think that's too liberal a position, a conservative rebuttal (by Amy Shlaes, Council on Foreign Relations) appears on the same page of the Tribune 3-30-08 and can be googled by title "$3 Trillion Tag Doesn't Add Up". Do read these original sources and make up your own mind. But, either way, we are talking about a Godalmighty lot of money; the first article is excerpted from the authors' book "The Three Trillion Dollar War".

A little humor
The outcome was uncertain because it was up to the Iraqis, moron. The only way the outcome would have been certain, would have been to Force them all to convert to Southern Baptist, and adopt our Constitution, and become the 51st state. Okay one another way the outcome would have been certain, would have been to install another strong arm dictator. It was a big gamble to let the Iraqi people determine their own destiny. So many of them have come to the US; so many of them want to come to the US. They don’t seem to have a problem with freedom when they live here in the US. Based on that it is not a big stretch to think they can, with a little freedom, with a little time, form a government of their own. :)

There are two other stories on the edge out there that my dark humor finds funny. They have to be funny at least from a Muslim’s perspective.

First, Ahamagenocide from Iran keeps trying to get everybody to catch his humor in this one for years, and so far it has gone over everybody’s head. Its “Iran doesn’t have nuclear weapons,” like Israel doesn’t have nuclear weapons. Wink wink. :)

Second, Bin Ladin’s latest speech, he is accusing the Pope of the cartoonists writers being a crusade. If you think of the hide whipping the Muslims got from the Catholics over the centuries when they were knights that were defenders of the faith, like Vlad the Impaler. Think now of this Vatican that wants no more wars ever, and wants dialogue with everybody, and would be unable to defend their way of life, if the Muslim hordes started leveling churches and building mosques in the Vatican. Here’s the dark humor; the only army the Pope can muster to attack the Muslims, is a few cartoonists. The Catholics are pathetically weak. The Muslims who want to fight another crusade are unfulfilled. :)

I hope someone else sees the humor.

Iraq and 9-11
This latest report is old news. The Bush administration long ago conceded that Iraq had no connection with 9-11. Certainly many Americans really believed, and really wanted to believe, that our government, just like cops on TV, had found the perps, and was going to take 'em down, before the last commercial.

But, everyone should remember how the rationale for the war kept changing; it was always a moving target. First it was...sort of...9-11, then it was the WMDs, then it blurred into some Wilsonian nation-building, democratizing scheme, and now, I guess, we're there because we need to train Iraqi security forces.

The Bushite confusion (and misdirection) about the war aims of our lengthy involvement persuade many of us liberals that talk about "winning" the war is meaningless, because if you don't have a clear war aim, how do you know when you've won? Nobody's going to go through a big surrender ceremony, like signing the treaty on the U.S.S. Missouri. There's nobody to sign for the other side. Will 'winnning' be when the death toll from insurgent attacks and suicide bombings drops to some acceptable level? What level might that be? Will it be when the Iraqis become a parliamentary democracy? The next Ice Age will come before that far-off dream materializes.

As I tell my political science students, in that part of the world, the warlord with the most gunmen standing gets to be president. That's what we'll have to settle for, and I don't think that was worth thousands of American lives.

the neoCONS are nervous!
Cliff May, Bill Kristol, Prager, Prelutsky, Barone, Gaffney, and Krauthammer who all appear on TH (a neoCON front, really) are ALL neoCONS. Barack scares the heil out of them because he has said what a clear majority of America now knows-- Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11, the immense costs have NOT been worth it, and we ought not stay there forever as dupe Amnesty John suggests. What if America simply decides to stop the bleeding and waste as it did in Nam?

Simple-thinking Presidente Jorge (and America) got snookered into the abyss/quagmire by Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith and Libby, who have all since slinked off, their mischief done and those permanent bases established. They had made their agenda clear way back in 1996 (PNAC)-- 9/11 simply gave them their cause celebre. It takes a bit or reading to fully comprehend the intrigue, but their own words and deeds reveal it, which cannot be artfully dismissed as "conspiracy theory."

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.h tml
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editoria ls/articles/2007/11/04/a_lazy_simplistic_analogy/
http://tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html

May is Close
May ignores a few critical factors. First, in claiming an evident need to depose Hussein, May forgets that Hussein was our ally and that we did NOTHING when he was massacred his own people. May forgets that we encouraged and supported Hussein's war against Iran. And he ignored that we did have an official policy favoring regime change in Iraq, just not a military solution.

He also ignores that Petraeus and his strategy were ignored for years by this administration. It is nothign new: Petraeus advocated it sicne the start fo teh conflict. Took them a damn long time at the cost of a lot of people and money to pay any attention!

And the outcome of the Iraq war, vis-a-vis the "long" war, is already determined. First, Iran, a nation ruled by fundamentalists is the big winner. And second, a bunch of no name citizen soldiers with makeshift bombs, light wepaons, no armor or air power, and no surveillance can hold down the vaunted American military for years on end.

Cut and Run
I see the moonbats are out in force.

Barack Obama said he was the only person in the presidentiual race who was afgainst the war from ther start. Please note the following quote from this liar:

“There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage.” [re: Iraq War, Chicago Tribune, 07/27/04]

What say ye now?

Another lie from Barack Hussein Obama.

But the media were not much interested.
I just love that. In fact there are a total of about 6 major media conglomerates, all because of de-regulation started by a man named Reagan.

Those media conglomerates are all totally supportive of the right-wing agenda and the military industrial complex which has profited so immensely from this war. And they are supportive of Israel. No surprise.

Everything that has happened was predicted by us, liberals, who opposed the war from the beginning. How can that be? I for one, have never served in the military. How is it I know 10 times as much about military failure and the impossibility of "winning" a war of occupation. How can I, oft called a Commie, know 10 times what all the cons here know about the "economy"?

That is because the cons believe the myths. They believe: 1. that there is such a thing as a free economy. 2. that government can stand out of the way of sensible, hardworking business men. And many more lies.

There is in fact no such thing as a free economy without the control by government or quasi government (ever hear of the FED?) Do you know what small businessmen and women would do to eachother without the COURT SYSTEM?

Or are such things excluded from the Con understanding, because the media perpetuate the lies.

If this last week isn't proof that the "market economy" is a failure ... just wait. It will probably get worse.

Sometimes certain news stories never
make it to the Townhall website. Here is another story, breaking today, that might not be reported here:

SCOOTER LIBBY DISBARRED

"The Washington DC local court of appeals today finally disbarred Scotter Libby, Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff."

In a brief order, the court said the local bar association had investigated Libby's conviction and determined the crimes of which he was found guilty included obstruction of justice and perjury, and crimes of 'moral turpitude'."

" 'When a member of the Bar is convicted of an offense involving moral turpitude, disbarment is mandatory', the court said today."

PENTAGON STUDY (which was to have been
released last week): SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD NO TIES TO AL-QAEDA

"A U.S. military study acknowledged for the first time Wednesday (3/12/08) that Saddam Hussein had no direct ties to al-Qaeda, directly undercutting the Bush administration's case for war with Iraq."

"The Pentagon study, based on more than 600,000 documents recovered after U.S. & U.K. troops toppled Hussein in 2003, discovered "no 'smoking gun' (ie, direct connection) between Saddam's Iraq and al-Qaeda", its authors wrote."

"Wary of embarrassing press coverage that the new study debunks those claims, the U.S. Defense Department attempted to bury the release of the report Wednesday."

"The Pentagon cancelled a planned briefing on the study and scrapped plans to post its findings on the internet, ABC News reported."

"Another Pentagon official told ABC that initial press reports on the study made it 'too politically sensitive'".

---------------------------------------------

This was a report that was to have been posted on the Joint Forces Command website last week. It is a study the Bush administration, in fact, commissioned. When the report results were revealed, the Bush administration pressured the Pentagon to cancel plans making the report available to the press and online.

Isn't this called censorship in other countries?

Deficits.
For what it's worth, since 2001, the actual deficit, including the 2009 budget, will have increased by $4.35 trillion. The Heritage Foundation did the study, and the administration did not dispute it. Budgets are often little more than hot air piled on top of more hot air. They are passed in pieces. The war is funded, then a supplemental budget is brought in six months late for additional war funding, for example. As far as the cost of the war, there are actually several numbers. You have the increase in the general defense budget, the direct funding for the Iraq/Afghanistan wars which is separated out, the increases in the CIA budget for additional intelligence and in country support personnel, the increase in the VA budget to care for the injured vets, and you then have pieces of funding for infrastructure and nation building actions in Iraq that show up in the State Department budget, as well as other departments also involved. And then, you have the unfunded but necessary elements, such as the fact that we have allowed the Guard and Army's equipment to deteriorate, so that much will have to be replaced. To date, we're well over $1 trillion and counting. Which is why the CBO and several other studies expect the actual cost, assuming most troops are out in a few years, to exceed $2 trillion.


A Leftist Liberal Spy?
Will writes:

"...our own Pentagon issued a report saying that the U.S. is worse off, that the invasion and 'war on terror' has not made us any safer..."

"...We are now at the beginning of what most economic experts are predicting, conservatively, will be a 2 to 3 year recession."

1) I would love to see this aleged "report". I have absolute zero doubt in my mind that you, Will, are guilty of the crime of context-dropping with your assertion.

2) You have made it clear that you know NOTHING about economics. But you sure know how to play the part of Sheeple, and try to kill people's minds with your fear. "Most" economic experts are NOT coming anywhere close to your personally-imagined gloom and doom about what would be, dimwit, far and away the longest U.S. recession in post-Depression history--and I can tell you right now we are NOT on the verge of any such thing, and NOBODY will even know if we've had any true recession whatsoever until the end of June.

What's more, if we do have any recession at all (and recessions are not "unnatural"), it has not been caused by War spending. Since 2002, the U.S. deficit has risen by $2.3 trillion. How much has the U.S. spent on the war efforts, including in Afghanistan, to this point? $600 billion.

Care to guess what that other $1.7 trillion has consisted of? Mostly those entitlement programs that the Lefties can't live without.

sorry libs
but Clinton's cut n' run in Mogadishu is why we got 9/11. Osama said so himself. Islamic see appeasement for what it is....cowardice.

what's right and what's wrong
I had hoped that May's title, "The Long War," might try to rehabilitate that phrase, used by the Bush administration, and appearing in the opening line of the The 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review Report (QDRR) by DOD. The war in Iraq is part of, but not identical with, the "long war." If anything, the "long war" is more than the "war on terror," since, as lots of people have pointed out, "terrorism" is a tactic, and not the object of a war.

The "long war," as I see it, is the protracted conflict between militant Islam (jihadism) and the West in general. Rumsfeld thought it might last decades, as do I.

What we should never have committed to was 'bringing democracy' to Iraq. It's not going to work, period. The surge, while it has had some effect, will fail once American troop strength in Iraq is reduced. The al-Qaeda forces will simply ramp up again.

Americans don't like the whole idea of generations-long conflicts; most deny the very possibility of such conflicts. I think they (and we) are dangerously wrong in this. Unfortunately, I don't think either of the Democratic candidates is up to facing this, nor is McCain.

Also, a real slap in the face
to all americans is that there are no SOBER, critical voices left in our generals on the ground. Many, many generals now are against this occupation, this drive for "democracy", whatever reason you want to tack on now as to why we're still there. If a general or high-ranking mlitary officer disagrees with this administration, they are fired (or forced to resign) and other, complying administration yes-men are brought in.

Bush has consistently tamped down dissent in his own military, the voices of reason & sanity. That is why the neo-cons can point to current generals & say "We must take the advise of our military men"; all voices that do not hew the company line have been systematically removed.

Just Imagine
It is sobering to imagine Bush campaigning in 2000 by promising to do what he actually did after he was elected. And please don't bother responding that Bush could not have anticipated the 9-11 attack: the point here lies in the nature of his response to that attack.

McCain, who has shown little interest in any issue but war, has already demonstrated his confusion (I refer to the incident in Jordan when he recently confused, several times, Al Quaeda with the Shiites and had to be corrected by Senator Lieberman with a whisper in the ear, an incident about which the media have been very polite). Another ill-informed president who is heigh-ho for war? We can't afford that. Add to this that the GOP feeds on war because it keeps the party in power, power it requires so it can activate its economic philosophy, one that has NOT made us prosper....

There is much more to be scared of in this election than that Barack Obama will attend church.

I think this chapter in american history
has tought us a valuable lesson. The U.S. simply does not have a moral right to superimpose our vision of democracy onto muslim nations (it's one thing to depose a dictator that goes contrary to U.S. interests; it is quite another thing altogether to occupy a country & try to remake it over in our image, all the while having a president who says "all people everywhere yearn to be free").

What is really frustrating is our own Pentagon issued a report saying that the U.S. is worse off, that the invsaion & "war on terror" has not made us any safer, and our own president takes this report (as he has with countless previous reports) and SPINS the results completely. He looks into the television camera without blushing, and he disregards any & all facts that do not suit his purpose.

Folks, this is anti-american at the deepest level. Our president is figuratively giving important, established U.S. civilian & military institutions the finger. And we all cower under the chants of U.S. security.

We are now at the beginning of what most economic experts are predicting, conservatively, will be a 2 to 3 year recession. Are we still willing to pump hundreds of billions of dollars (not to mention american lives) into an unwinnable "war"? Do we really have huge amounts of money to throw into Iraq, only to make our situation worse?

The best outcome is: Iraq stabilizes & the people eventually come back - where they hold free & fair elections only to vote in groups like Hamas & Hezbollah & Al Qaeda & the Taliban, just like Lebanon & Palestine & other countries in the region. What a freaking mess. And our president tries to superimpose a MORALITY veneer onto it: making it God's will & another ultimate contest of "good vs. evil" all that.

critique of media.
I can't get too worked up about the supposed lack of coverage by media on the benefits of the surge, when it was that same media back in late 2002 and most of 2003 that failed to critique the reasons the administration presented for invading Iraq. Media back then applauded the administration, including the "New York Times".

If media is deficient now in reporting on the benefits of the surge, it must also have been equally deficient in failing to hold to account the many arguments presented by this administration for invading Iraq(most of which by now have been judged to have been erroneous).

So, Mr. May, spare me the sanctimonious outrage of media on the surge.

HOWEVER, Mr. May goes goes along way toward redeeming himself with the following quotation:

"One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled".

I think that is fair.

Bush apparently believes Islam to be compatible with the values inherent in free societies, in democratic societies.

He has staked his entire presidency upon that belief.

But is it?


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