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Thursday, January 17, 2008
Cliff May :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Spirit of the Oxford Union: How the West Will Be Lost?
by Cliff May
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Seventy-five years ago next month, the Oxford Union debated the following resolution: "That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country." The motion passed 275 votes to 153.

Winston Churchill called that a “disgusting symptom” that would breed “contempt”– not least in Germany where Hitler was already making plans to wipe various European nations off the map. The Manchester Guardian disagreed, noting the mistakes British politicians had made in wars past, and the hypocrisy they exhibited in the present.

The spirit of the Oxford Union lives on, not least on America’s campuses. Professor Ward Churchill’s characterization of the victims of the Sept. 11, 2001 atrocity as “little Eichmanns” is only the most infamous example.

Here’s one more recent: This month, five Iranian swift boats threatened U.S. Navy war ships in the Straits of Hormuz. Juan Cole, a professor at the University of Michigan and former president of the Middle East Studies Association (MESA), was livid: “This episode is just about the most pitiful thing I have seen since Bush came to power, and believe me I've seen plenty,” he wrote. “The Iranian Revolutionary Guards issued their own video and audio of the encounter, which shows a routine identity check. … The Iranian press is suspicious about the timing of the Pentagon videotape, noting that it was released just as Bush was heading to the Middle East to try to convince the Arab allies of the US to make common cause with Israel against Iran.”

Hollywood moguls also have adopted the Oxford Union approach to national security, reheating Pogo’s Big Idea of the 1970s: that we have met the enemy and he is us. Among recent propaganda flicks: “Lions for Lambs” (right-wing politicians selling an unpopular war), “Rendition” (CIA torturers and a sexy suicide bomber), “Redacted” (U.S. Marines raping and murdering children), and even “The Good Shepherd,” a film about the CIA’s early years, features American secret agents letting loose locust plagues on Third World farmers and waterboarding an innocent man. Why would anyone fight for such a country?

But those of you who do – be warned: You may turn into homicidal maniacs! Last Sunday, The New York Times ran a front-page piece headlined "Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles.” The story suggested that military service in Iraq and Afghanistan is transforming nice young men into crazed killing machines.

Just hours after the papers landed on doorsteps, the Powerline blog’s John Hinderaker was asking why the Times had not bothered to compare the murder rate among veterans to the murder rate for young American men generally. Hinderaker and others crunched the numbers themselves and found the murder rate much higher for young men who stayed home. Columnist Ralph Peters estimates that recent war vets are about one-fifth as likely to be implicated in a homicide as the average 18- to 34-year-old man.

In what other hearts does the Oxford Union spirit dwell? A group of Muslim scholars recently wrote a letter to Christian leaders asserting the need for “peace and justice” between these two great religious communities. Good for them. But the Christian leaders responded with a letter asking “forgiveness” for Christian sins against Muslims “in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the ‘war on terror’).” Note the quotes around that last phrase. Note that sins committed by extremist Muslims against Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and moderate Muslims were not mentioned.

At the Oxford Union, there was, at least, respect for freedom of speech. In Canada, today, by contrast, Orwellian “human rights commissioners” are persecuting Mark Steyn, author of “America Alone,” for simply arguing that Western civilization is worth defending and for predicting that, if current trends continue, Europe will soon be Arab- and Islamic-dominated. Such ideas, Steyn’s critics charge, “promote ill will” toward Muslims and must be punished.

Also summoned by government commissioners – commissars? -- was Canadian publisher Ezra Levant who dared to re-print Danish cartoons lampooning Islamist terrorism. Levant stood up to the Grand Inquisitors, saying: “We have a heritage of free speech that we inherited from Great Britain that goes back to the year 1215 and the Magna Carta. We have a heritage of eight hundred years of British common law protection for speech, augmented by 250 years of common law in Canada.”

Yes, but there also is the tradition of the Oxford Union circa 1933. And right now it is not certain which tradition will prevail.

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About The Author

Clifford D. May is the President of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

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Cut And Run Traitors
Thats who these people are. Terrorism is a Muslim problem. It can only be solved by Muslims. Yet Muslims are doing nothing to stop the jihadis.

Until Muslims start cracking down on terrorists we should not allow any more Muslim immigration into the west.

Let these "moderates" demonstrate moderation on the islamofascists. Until then let the "moderates" live in the stink holes they share with the fellow followers of the "religion of peace".

I have a solution for this:
quote
" Seventy-five years ago next month, the Oxford Union debated the following resolution: "That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country." The motion passed 275 votes to 153."

-------
Let us gather all the ones who now hate freedom of speech, and will not fight for it and force them to live in Saudi Arabia.

They can live up to the religion they want protected from any criticism this way.
Which would make them examples they know whats best for all once they adapt to islam.


Freedom is being lost
because the people seek security from mommy first. Only an independent minded nation can retain its freedoms. The more responsibility that is given to the government, the more we will lose freedom.

Check out my website, joeolivaforpresident.org for a much more complete discussion of these ideas. You will not be disappointed. Thanks, Joe

ex-Wyomingite
“…it has failed to engender one single mass protest even remotely reminiscent of those of the 1960s.”


Maybe there is a simple answer: They think they have become the establishment now. (in some ways they would be correct)

“there is absolutely no anti-war movement anywhere in the nation to speak of.”

The power of perception is a consideration. They made a point to make an example of Lieberman. (in public stocks if you will) You can disagree with the affects, but no less it is influence. Then again, we saw general b-tray-us ads to intimidate their members in congress. Hillary with her abmonision to the general that his report “requires the willing suspension of disbelief”.

They believe it is everywhere though, and one metaphor for that is the Pinkettes who pop up...

There've been no mass
war protests, and as a matter of fact, leftists sometimes have to hire shills to fill their protest ranks. The problem is partly there is no draft, young people tend to be less anti-military (as it sponsors many college scholarships), Vietnam and other vets show up and oppose them, and altho' the extreme lefties are still motivated, the general masses are not.

The Hollywood movies
Rendition
Redaction
Valley of Elah
Lions for Lambs
Kingdom (made $60 mill. but cost $80 mill)

have all bombed. People don't want to see the military castigated or humiliated while its in harm's way.

The MSM has tried its hardest to re-create 1972 and anti-Vietnam hysteria but has generally been a failure. It can't now deny improvement in Iraq, so it is now weeping and wailing over Pakistan and the US econ. The left is crazy for military defeat, econ. recession, and horrors like Katrina. What wonderful people, and they have three Dem. candidates who suit them to a tee.

We need a political exchange program
Love Hugo Chavez? Go stay in Venezuela, with the stipulation that you can MOVE ABOUT FREELY, for one month. Think the Islamic jihadists are simply misunderstood peace-lovers who feel oppressed by the west? Do a Nicholas Berg and go stay with a Muslim family who supports jihad against the west for a month. Think we should emulate Europe's NHS? Go to Europe next time you need critical medical intervention; or better, Cuba.

An African acquaintance of mine thinks we should send American black long-term welfare dependents to stay in her old village (in Gabon, I think it is) for one month. She maintains they'll come back "thin and grateful".


oldsocialworker ...

You would create gratitude, and then happiness.

If you sent Welfare children to a poor foreign village... they'd find true friends and happiness.

After a few months... these kids wouldn't want to come back to the Democrat ghettos.

And how could we blame them.


America alone may sound patriotic
but at the heart of statements like "the western civilization must be defended against..." made by Steyne, is the premise that only caucasians are capable of building a great civilization. This premise is what most non-caucasians find to be arrogant and misguided considering some of the great minds lived in Egypt (Africa) and Asia, parts of the world that are historically non-caucasion. Europe is definitely loosing its old civilization standards that included only caucasian/european cultures and it's beginning to reflect a more global culture that includes middle easterners, asians and africans. There is nothing wrong with this new civilization and statements like "defending the western civilization" imply that there is something wrong. Jihadism - should not be linked to the new civilization because it is a different problem that is normally linked to "people who hate america and Israel" and wants these two countries destroyed. Unlike most european residents in the new civiliation from asia, africa and middle-easterners who are okay with america.

That makes some sense, Carlos
Life for girls can difficult in third world countries. Then again, the "protective" services here tend to protect perpetrators rather than children. At least being sexually abused in Africa won't result in ending up with a psychiatric diagnosis on top of it all.

You are quite right about the Democrat ghettos. The response of the younger social workers coming onto the scene is a terrifying demand for MORE of what created what we have today. Hillary Clinton wants what has created the Democrat ghettos on a grand scale- and people cheer!

oldsocialworker

Yes, our dear Social Programs fail children.

Hillary's village has tried to "get it right" for 40 years. And hundreds of Billions of dollars later, they still cannot raise one single child.

Another 40 years, and liberals will finally come up with a Great Idea... "Have a husband and wife raise children" :)






Sarah' comments
Here we go again! Its all our fault because Western Civilization is irredeemably racist! Sarah presents no logic trail that leads to the assertion that a call to defend Western Civilization must be based on racist motives nor did anyone even suggest that "cultures of color" have made no contributions to "global culture". However, there definitely is something wrong when Shakesphere and Michelangelo are dismissed as merely "dead white men".

Carlos, it ALMOST happened yesterday!
I was at a meeting that was to mainly deal with the issue of teen pregnancy. Much discussion ensued, and it turns out that teens who invest in their own futures with the support of parenting/mentoring, and have job opportunities so that they can enjoy exercising competence and service for personal profit, end up being less likely to knock up or become knocked up.

WOW! My suggestion was to make cities business friendly through low tax rates and incentives to establish home bases in depressed areas. Some other dolt suggested that we "force" businesses into depressed areas by dislallowing personal choice in where to open... Well, we'll see.

Mark Steyn
Mark Steyn ROCKS. I suggest you all read "America Alone" if you haven't already.

The most common boy name in GB is now Mohammed. I'd say Europe is already finished. He is really into demographics. I also agree with his premise that it is the weaknesses of our enemies that are the greatest threat to us.

America is that last man standing, but not strongly. Frankly I am not optomistic. I see dark days ahead.

I don`t ...
know what happened at Oxford 75 yrs ago but neither does Mr. May. We do know that multitudes of British youth fought and died in a robust defense of their nation, thanks largely to the leadership of Winston Churchill. We have no such leader.

Instead we are led by an isolated patrician boob who`s idea of patriotism is "Let`s you and him fight". Those of us who are sickened by this war and its human and financial costs are not "cut and run traitors". We believe that the US has lost virtually all credibility as a world leader and a voice for truth by its constant assertion throughout the world that we know best and we`ll kill you to prove it.

The last constitutionally declared war was WWII, and since then all US military conflicts have been illegal. We have done so much of this illegal conquest that we now have a worldwide empire that we can neither manage nor afford.

We are morally and financially bankrupt much like Rome and we`re headed for their same fate.

Apathetic America
Even the antiwar crowd would rather let someone else handle the commitment required to protest against the war. They are content to sit at home and gripe to other people living in the same 'bubble' they, themselves occupy, and let the rest of the world take care of itself, as long as there is no direct, immediate effect on their own little world. By the way, after reading in an editorial how the main reason for high oil prices is, supposedly, rising demand for oil in China, and other emerging economies(largely because of US buying so many products from them, instead of from Americans), It occurred to me that, if we pulled our heads out of our butts, and quit buying so many foreign products, these emerging economies would not need so much oil, and the oil supply would not have so much demand. That was the longest sentence I ever even read, much less wrote. Now I gotta go throw up.

Don't Forget . . .
Oxford and Cambridge alumni constituted the writing/performing combo of "Monty Python's Flying Circus" - who performed several sketches both on their TV show and in their movies slamming the military and (on the face of it) promoting and glorifying would-be Ehren Watadas. One of the most infamous examples was the sketch where a young soldier (Eric Idle) goes to his recruiting colonel's (Graham Chapman) office and announces his intention to leave the Army because "it's dangerous." You can bet that the MoveOn.org/Code Pink(o)/Daily Kos/Huff-and-Puff Post crowd consider this sketch among their favorites (not because it's funny - it isn't - but because they agree with the sentiment of Idle's character). In short, another manifestation of the spirit of the Oxford Union in 1933.

salty
"I don`t know what happened at Oxford 75 yrs ago but neither does Mr. May."

Are you saying that that incident didn't happen? I've read about it in other places.

Since you are so wise, what is your solution for Darfur?

Also, your claim that we have lost all credibility as a world leader is just newspaper talk, and leftist newspaper talk at that. The "Economist" recently published a survey of people in Nigeria, and it found that 90% of the Christians there have a favorable view of the U.S.

You don't hear about that in our newspapers, of course, because they like to tell about only those who disapprove of us. The result is that one gets the impression that everyone disapproves of us when they don't.

Sarah
"Europe is definitely loosing its old civilization standards that included only caucasian/european cultures and it's beginning to reflect a more global culture that includes middle easterners, asians and africans. There is nothing wrong with this new civilization...."

I suggest you go live in Saudi Arabia for a year so that you understand what could go wrong with the new civilization you are promoting. Obviously, the biggest worry is that women will end up as second-class citizens. Just tell me, please, how this will be avoided, given that every critic of this new civilization is immediately denounced as "Islamophobic?"

The Oxford Union's 428
"275 votes to 153"

It would be interesting if a historian were to seek out the fates of those students and see how their lives turned out. Notably, it would be interesting to find out how those 428 souls — both those who voted for and those who voted against — spent the years 1939 to 1945. (Did they enlist? Were they drafted? Did they serve on the home front? Was any awarded a medal for bravery? Etc…)

Monty Python on American Imperialism
As for Monty Python, artists may naturally have a leftist bent (especially Eric Idle, I believe), however I would point out that one of the best defenses ever of American foreign policy (intentionally or otherwise) or the British Empire, if you prefer, comes from the group's "Life of Brian":

Monty Python on American Imperialism
http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/07/monty-python-on-amer ican-imperialism.html" target="_blank">http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/07/monty-python-on-amer ican-imperialism.html

In one scene, the members of one of the most patriotic, determined, extremist, and intransigent resistance groups fighting against the Roman occupier have gathered in a dark room for a secret meeting.

http://static.flickr.com/34/72471793_42896802ed.jpg?v=0

Furious about the Roman Empire's occupation of their land, Reg (John Cleese) spits out: “They bled us white, the bastards! They’ve taken everything we have.” He continues raving and ranting about how they took everything from their “fathers” and their “fathers' fathers”, before ending with a majestic rhetorical question. “And what have they ever given us in return?” With that, he stops, and crosses his arms, feeling very satisfied. He realizes that he has made one of the best speeches of his career.

Just then, a shy masked commando raises a finger. “The aqueduct…”

“What?” asks Reg.

“The aqueduct”, repeats the man.

“Oh yeah yeah they did give us that, uh-huh that’s true…”

Another commando, as masked as his colleague, chimes in. “And the sanitation…”

…Murmurs of agreement rise from the commandos in the room.

The meeting is not at all going in the direction Reg expected it to, and he's starting to lose patience: “Yeah, all right, I’ll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things the Romans *have* done…”

Another terrorist interrupts him: “And the roads…”


The rest of the scene here:

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/07/monty-python-on-amer ican-imperialism.html" target="_blank">http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2004/07/monty-python-on-amer ican-imperialism.html

The more things change....
Here are some factoids:

In 1938, the Gallup Poll showed that most Americans approved of Chamberlain's giveaway of the Sudetenland to Hitler.

The Gallup Poll showed that Americans were antiwar and appeasement-oriented right up till around 1940, when the German blitz of London began. That seemed to change Americans' opinions. Before that, we were actually more antiwar then than we are now.

Here are some headlines from the NY Times of that era. Note the dates:

1,000 U.S. CLERGYMEN SIGN ANTI-WAR PLEDGE:Protestant Ministers Deplore
'Threatened Belligerency'
June 16, 1941

ANTI-WAR GROUP ASSAILS PRESIDENT
May 13, 1941
WASHINGTON, May 30 -- More than 2,500 opponents of America's entry into
the European war packed the Turner Arena tonight, cheered Charles A.
Lindbergh's name for 35 seconds, booed and hissed the names of Anthony
Eden and Viscount Halifax, and gave only mild catcalls when Hitler or
nazism were mentioned by speakers at a rally of the Keep America Out of
War Congress.

COLLEGE YOUTHS TO HOLD PEACE RALLIES TODAY
April 23, 1941

HUGE RALLIES MARK STUDENT PEACE DAY: 20,000 on Campuses of City Mass in
Anti-War 'Strikes,' With Almost No Disorder
April 23,1937

Volunteers needed
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"--Edmund Burke

Terrorism is a Muslim problem. But until such time as the Muslims arise to fix this problem we must go after the terrorists where they are. This is no longer a world where your main concern is a suicide bomber in a shopping mall or a pizza parlor. That suicide bomber packs a more lethal arsenal than any in history. There are weapons of mass destruction in the wrong hands and there are those who intend to use them.

Just as innocent people get caught in the crossfire in drug infested neighborhoods, innocent Muslims will be caught in the crossfire when terrorists are confronted.

"Illegal War", "Undeclared War" ? Who do you declare war against ? What nation? We have a radical group of a particular religion that has a world wide reach. They have no uniforms, no nation. They are camouflaged and blend with the people.

What is so great about Western civilization ? It is the only one so far that espouses freedom and liberty for the individual, and tries to live up to that creed. We make our mistakes. We are human. We don't always get it right. So if you want perfection then ask God if there is an opening upstairs or volunteer to talk to Osama. I'm sure he'll listen.

Tibby


Undeclared War ...
is raging in Iraq, who did nothing which should incite invasion. However, if in our wisdom, we think they did, all we have to do to is follow the constitution. You remember, that document upon which the nation is founded and which all elected officials swear to uphold. If the pols in DC are so eager (like most of you) for blood, they can at least stand up and vote.

As for Darfur or Iraq or Taiwan or Pakistan or eastern Europe or..., where do we get the idea that we must "do something"? In our on-going dispute with Cuba, would it ruffle your feathers if China decided they must "do something"? We have convinced the world by numerous example that the Ugly American is a valid stereotype. We invade and bomb and bribe and promote dictatorship around the world. We have thousands of bases in over 100 countries. Other people have the crazy idea that they want to be left alone by the world`s policeman and the Muslims are doing more than whining about it.

The argument is moot at this point because we`ll be coming home soon from all those places. We are financially bankrupt and cannot afford these activities any longer. Our comeuppance is at hand.

salty
"Other people have the crazy idea that they want to be left alone by the world`s policeman."

Sure, they say that, then change their minds when one of their neighbors threatens them.

Plus, there were plenty of Iraqis who wanted us to "invade." Your viewpoint simplistically ignores them.

As for your idea that we needn't do anything about Darfur, I hope that you better not be one of those who blames us for Rwanda.

Against All Enemies
Of those enemies both foreign and domestic, the Oxford Union types are the domestic variety to the extent that they threaten our national security by actively working to undermine our military and help enemies of the United States.

I believe that there are still enough of us who have sworn to uphold the US Constitution--especially the Second Amendment--that we will prevail.

JFP
Ok, my arguments are that our activities are:
-morally wrong
-illegal by any interpretation of the Constitution
-highly unpopular worldwide
-financially crippling to our own treasury

And your argument is some Iraquis wanted us to come in.

Is that all you have to offer?

Thank you for the article
History is loaded with example after example of
how appeaseres, pacifists, cowards,girlie-mwn,
and craven grovelers are, sooner or later,
set upon by the forces of history that always turn their cowardice into assaults upon their flesh. It is one thing to sing kumbaya and "We Are The World", when there are no foreigners
sticking metal into their flesh, it becomes another thing altogether when there are.
In the end the Multiculturalist-Economic-Globalist project [and that's what we're really talking about here]is going to stand or fall on
the question of how physically violent the situation becomes throughout the democracies.
If the physical violence remains at the level where it can be controlled as a police matter,
then the M-E-G project will NEVER be stopped.
Many believe the nations of Europe, for example,will not remain
peaceful in the face of the coming Islamic takeover of their countries.Time alone will give us the answer to that.

Thank you for the article
History is loaded with example after example of
how appeaseres, pacifists, cowards,girlie-mwn,
and craven grovelers are, sooner or later,
set upon by the forces of history that always turn their cowardice into assaults upon their flesh. It is one thing to sing kumbaya and "We Are The World", when there are no foreigners
sticking metal into their flesh, it becomes another thing altogether when there are.
In the end the Multiculturalist-Economic-Globalist project [and that's what we're really talking about here]is going to stand or fall on
the question of how physically violent the situation becomes throughout the democracies.
If the physical violence remains at the level where it can be controlled as a police matter,
then the M-E-G project will NEVER be stopped.
Many believe the nations of Europe, for example,will not remain
peaceful in the face of the coming Islamic takeover of their countries.Time alone will give us the answer to that.
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