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Thursday, August 16, 2007
Cliff May :: Townhall.com Columnist
Petraeus's progress getting harder to deny
by Cliff May
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“The only thing this surge will accomplish is a surge of more death and destruction.” That was the prediction of blogger and anti-war activist Arianna Huffington back in December of last year -- one month before the Senate unanimously confirmed Gen. David Petraeus as commander in Iraq.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything.” That was the judgment of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in April -- two months before the reinforcements General Petraeus needed to fully implement his new “surge” strategy had arrived in Iraq.

In mid-June, just as troop strength was reaching the level needed to carry out the revised mission, Senator Reid added: “As many had foreseen, the escalation has failed to produce the intended results."

But now those intended results are being seen – as even some critics of the war, to their credit, are acknowledging. “More American troops have brought more peace to more parts of Iraq. I think that’s a fact,” Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill) told reporters.

“My sense is that the tactical momentum is there with the troops,” Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI) said to PBS’s Charlie Rose.

The debate over the war in Iraq is shifting, though more slowly than is the war in Iraq, thanks to a well-funded and determined anti-war movement and too many in the media for whom good news is no news.

A few days ago, CNN’s Kyra Phillips interviewed Lt. General Raymond Odierno, General Petraeus’ top deputy. She might have asked whether his troops now have both the will and a way to defeat al-Qaeda suicide-bombers and Iranian-backed death squads. Instead, her inquiring mind wanted to know: “Do you think that this job that you've taken on could be career suicide?”

Because of scant media interest, most Americans don’t even realize that the so-called surge is a new and different strategy, implemented by General Petraeus because the approach of his predecessors – not least former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfield – failed.

Rumsfeld wanted a “light footprint” in Iraq, not an intrusive military occupation. He thought more troops would mean more targets for our enemies. He pushed hard for Iraqis to provide their own security as quickly as possible.

Under the Rumsfeld strategy, most American forces spent most of their time in Forward Operating Bases (FOBs). Cut off from the local population, they received little intelligence. And since they were providing security for themselves but not for Iraqis, Iraqis turned to sectarian militias which grew larger, stronger and more violent.

Meanwhile, al-Qaeda in Iraq deployed suicide-bombers to mass-murder civilians as a way to stoke sectarian violence. Al-Qaeda calculated – not unreasonably – that Americans would withdraw rather than remain in the crossfire of a civil war.

General Petraeus, the Army’s top counterinsurgency expert, decided it was time for a different approach. He moved troops out of the FOBs and put them into Iraqi cities and villages where they have been providing security for Iraqis – who have shown their appreciation by providing intelligence that spy satellites can’t retrieve.

He is targeting al-Qaeda, as well as the Shia militias trained, funded and equipped by Tehran – their cells, strongholds and bomb factories. And with added troop strength, he has been able to hold the neighborhoods he has cleared.

It also is true that most traditional Iraqi leaders have been repelled by al-Qaeda’s brutality and extremism. Americans, by contrast, have shown the local sheiks respect, while training and partnering with Iraqis -- making it clear they would like nothing better than to see Iraqis take charge of their own security as soon as they are ready.

On top of all that, U.S. soldiers have been doubling as diplomats: helping to reconcile Sunni and Shia tribal groups, and even bringing insurgents – those not affiliated with al-Qaeda or Tehran – into line with the Iraqi government.

This week, General Odierno launched “Operation Phantom Strike,” a new offensive that aims to pursue the al Qaeda terrorists and Iranian-backed militias displaced from their safe havens by this summer’s earlier actions: Operation Phantom Thunder, and Operation Fard al-Qanoon (the Baghdad Security Plan).

Operation Phantom Strike, if it is successful, will mean more “death and destruction” – mostly for America’s sworn enemies. No doubt, the anti-war crowd will both oppose that and pronounce it a failure even before it’s fully underway. But other Americans – if they learn what is really happening in Iraq -- will support the troops. Most will favor giving them the time and resources they need to complete their mission.

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About The Author

Clifford D. May is the President of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

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Now you've done it Cliff
You've pissed on one of the left's sacred cows - our defeat in Iraq.

Prepare yourself for a whole lot of criticism from a bunch of lefties who've never been to Iraq, don't know squat about war, and know even less about winning the peace.

A Hit Dog Always Howls ....
Wiseone, it appears tanabear and Mr. Small are proving the old addage ... and you predicted it, dead on.

No oh dear
The latest suicide attacks in Iraq, up near Mosul, were the work of al Qaeda in Iraq. They are rightly called the enemy. But the fact that the enemy made a series of suicide attacks does not mean anything in terms of the oveall success of the surge. Throughout World War II in the European theater, German army and SS forces engaged in horrific attacks. It did not mean that they weren't headed to defeat; they were.

Isn't it sick that small minded people like Warren Small delight in every suicide bombing as evidence somehow that we are losing? On behalf of our magnificent military guys in Iraq, which includes my older son who is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving in harm's way as a platoon leader in Iraq, I say screw you to the Warren Small types. We really are winning.

@Ash
"Unfortunately your eldest son's chances of being killed or maimed are higher now than at any other time in the war."

Can you back up this statement with proof?

If not, then kindly keep your mendacity to yourself.

Thanks.

To those above
All your comments are to say the least juvenile for those against the war

There could be no deaths and still not a war in our interests.
There could be many deaths and still not war in our interests.
There could many deaths and the war is in our interests.

So your posts are not worth the paper they are written; that is why I call them juvenile.

The only relevent argument is whether it is in our interests to cintinue or withdraw regardless of causalties. One does not evalaute the rightness or wrongness of a war such as Civil War, WW 2, Korea War etc in terms of causalties. Causalties are alway tragic. So are car crashes tragic; that is no an argument to stop driving cars.

So grow up and go beyond knee jerk responses if you wish any respect. There are intelliegent reasons for pulling out although I dont think much of them, but your posts are drivel.

Killed and injured
Life and war contain risks. Those of us who have not fought have parents who have, and they have told us about war (Daddy has sent me this week his memories of the Battle of the Bulge, as he continues to set down his memoir of World War II for the grandchildren). Most of us know that people get killed in wars.

This week we have also had several children killed and injured because their fathers were towing their inner tubes behind power boats. I have not heard anyone screaming for the banning of power boats, inner tubes, or children near water. Things happen. That is life.

Good news
for America, therefore bad news for the excrement called the left/dem party/stalinists/whatever, they are all the same.

Pretty soon the treasonist creeps will all be declaring how they supported the troops the whole time("so vote for me"), and the media will give them credit and the sheep will lap it up... same old same old.

sigh

oops
treasonist=treasonous

must-have-diet-pepsi

May's conundrum
What difference is a military surge going to have in trying to change the will of people who are NEVER going to dismiss their tightly woven political/religous beliefs for ours?
Its a war that will NEVER end............
Are we winning yet?

How telling

Yesterday I saw pictures of Iraqi sheiks and American officers having lunch together as they discussed how to battle the insurgents. Al Quida has been stupid enough to murder fellow Iraqis who were no threat to them. The "insurgents" violated one of the primary rules of guerrilla warfare. They are poisoning the locals against them.

So is our Military Leftists??
Our own Military internally refers to Afghanistan as "The Good War". Since our Military understands there was reason and value to invading Afghanistan and not Iraq, does that make them treasonous leftists??

My Dad spent 27 years in the Military with 3 Tours in Vietnam and he's absolutely opposed to the fabrication in Iraq...So he's an un American leftist too...I'll tell him he needs to return his Purple Hearts, Silver Star and Bronze Star.

Let's review the facts...Over 100,000 dead, 200,000 injured, $500B spent, substandard Military/VA hospitals filled with U.S. soldiers and INCREASES in Islamic radicalism from Iran to Egypt to Pakistan...AQ stronger than preinvasion...OBL still on the loose...Taliban back in power throughout Afghanistan...

We rail on Amedinjhad in Iran yet the primary reason he was elected in 2005 was the occupation of Iraq! According to our own Government "he was the only candidate for Iranian President that spoke against the United States."




Surge and Mosul
The stated aim of the Surge Forces was to slow the flow of munitions and people with destructive intent into the Baghdad area giving the freely elected government of Iraq more time to get established and time for more Iraqi Army units to train and grow and time for the existing Iraqi Army units to become more effective.

There is steady progress that can be pointed at by the troops in Iraq in accomplishing this goal. I can not speak authoritatively on the Iraqi Govt side, but the Iraqi Army is making significant progress and our Army is reducing the attacks in the Baghdad area as evidenced by the peaceful pilgrimages for several Imams (12th 7th and I think 2nd.) We have also captured and killed many high profile Al-Qaeda individuals and the fact that these individuals were turned in by local Iraqis along with more tips from locals on weapon caches and strong economic infrastructure improvement all point towards improvement.

While the pure evil of the cowards who attack and kill innocent women and children in Mosul is abhorrent it is not an indication of success or failure of the surge. The Mosul attack is however, further reason for us to be here fighting pure evil in the world, and fighting and winning a war every bit as necessary and every bit as proudly as my grandfathers fought in WWII.

Major R.L.
Camp Victory, Iraq 2nd Deployment here
Kuwait in 94, Bosnia 96 and Kosovo 2000 veteran

Cliff, the left can't stand a US win
in Iraq or anywhere, but don't call them unpatriotic!! The usual defeatists have posted their drivel doing their level best to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Tinsldr2, thank you for your service and continued support for the greatest nation the earth has ever seen.

The political side
The Shia's in the middle east are represented by Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. The Shia's in Iraq voted almost entirely on sectarian lines, empowered religious parties to run the government, and have called for automous states, which enables the Kurds to run their own affairs. This has given them control over the rest of the country. To date, they've shown little inclination to share power with the Sunni's. Rather, they have implemented the Koran as the basis of civil law, and turned over the enforcement to clerics. These laws are opposed by the Sunni's and other minorities. We have a policy of a government of national unity, but the Shia's, to date, have done nothing that would cause us to believe that now that they have power, that they will ever give it up. Indeed, as long as the people of Iraq vote on sectarian lines, they will always have the power.

This is the core of our dilemma. The surge is providing more security, but the goal of national unity is even more distant today, than it was three years ago, as sectarian cleansing which has displaced millions has created even greater animosity than existed at that time.

How long, I wonder, must we stay there pursuing this goal? Iraq is a fantasy drawn on maps over 80 years ago that never previously existed. Like Yugoslavia, it appears that when given the option, the people forced together within these newly minted countries would rather run their own affairs, than work together. Even if we get compromises today, the fact is that at any time the majority can change whatever laws they have agreed to. Under these circumstances, how can we ever ensure the rights of minorities?

It appears to me that we are pursuing a policy that can never be made to work effectively, and, like Yugoslavia, that if we ever wish to leave, then the only other option, however we dislike it, is to separate the Sunni's and Shia's.

A dose of reality
The surge has been effective in routing Al Qaida in Anbar, with the assistance of Sunni tribes in the area. But six months ago those same Sunnis were killing U.S. troops. Now they are our "allies"...not because they believe in Bush's democracy nonsense but because they too see Al Qaida as a threat(just like they see the pro-Shia Maliki government as a threat...you remember Maliki...Bush's man in Iraq?).

I saw a photograph a few days ago where Bush's man in Iraq, Maliki, was walking, hand-in-hand...holding hands...with the chief evildoer in the region, Iran's Ahmadinejad!! Bush's man in Iraq holding hands with the man Bush has deemed to be the very embodiment of evil. I could not believe my eyes, and dropped my glass of Kool-aid.

I agree with my friends on the right, some of whom I seem to irritate, that it would be disastrous for the U.S. to "fail" in Iraq. We must help to bring about some stability there.

But let there be no mistake. It was this president's reckless, utopian, ill-conceived vision to "democratize" Iraq in the first place that has led us to our current state.

The surge may have some short-term success, but in the final analysis it must be the Iraqis themselves who step up to the plate and put aside their ancient tribal blood-feuds and sectarian differences, and I just do't see that happening.

A review of Brainsnotrhetoric's "facts":
I won't debate the numbers but take them at face value.

"Over 100,000 dead"

Is there some number of dead over which a war goes from just to unjust? If so, please provide us with that number. A historical note; 15 Million died in WWI and 55 million died in WWII. Are those #s over what constitutes a war not worth fighting?

"200,000 injured"

Is there some number of injured over which a war goes from just to unjust? It is estimated that over 5 million people were injured in WWII. Did this negate the validity of that war?

"$500B spent."

By some estimates WWII cost roughly $83 TRILLION in today's dollars.

"substandard Military/VA hospitals filled with U.S. soldiers."

THIS is a reason to not pursue a just war? One might argue that it is a reason not to move to nationalized health care but military hospitals have always been of less quality than private hospitals and almost ALWAYS are filled with soldiers ;-)

"INCREASES in Islamic radicalism..."

This is a red herring given that Islamic radicalism has been on the rise since the end of the ME colonial period and really surged once Carter got rid of the Shah of Iran. Indeed, one could argue that the EFFECT of Islamic Jihadism has been curbed internationally and certainly domestically since the liberation of Iraq.

"AQ stronger than preinvasion"

Not since the Surge started taking effect.

OBL still on the loose"

Who cares? If alive he is cowering in some cave some where.

Taliban back in power throughout Afghanistan"

They may gain a foothold here and there but this is the way of things. We'll clean them out. Note: There are still NAZIs today. Was FDR wrong?

Regarding fugitives
Just one more thought on OBL. While it is true he is a fugitive, there are fugitives EVERYWHERE. We still continue the fight in spite of that reality. Heck, we have fugitives from justice in Congress, mostly in the Democrat party (i.e. Harry "land deals for campaign $$" Reid) but that does not prevent us from trying to curb bribery.

The point of this post and my previous post is that citing numbers dead, cost of deployment, the fervor of the enemy or the status of enemy leadership are lame arguments against a war. Better questions for the anti-war crowd should be whether the war is just or not. That is a debate worth having since such a question should always be foremost in our minds.

If any of you anti-war types wish to make an argument based on that premise, please indulge us. Claims about whether we are winning or losing or how much the war is costing are irrelevant if the cause is just. Conversely, even if we had zero casualties and it cost us only $2,000,000 total to fight, if it is UNjust then those low numbers still shouldn't justify the war.

Can we agree that this should be the crux of the debate?

"WE" are Winning......
yet "WE" doesn't include most of us.

My Son Served! Did Yours?

When this is over, I don't want to hear crowing from all the victorious patriots......who participated about as much as
MITT ROMNEY'S SONS!

Brain dead Lefty posters
TH postings sure must be on target...it draws a lot of flak from the walking dead Lefties...just like they can't resist dumping on Rove, or their BDS, or their true blue Socialism, it is increasingly obvious that the Left offers nothing but incomprtence and hypocracy, no solutions, no policies, no good news to encourage their fellow Americans...
IOW the Left is still BANKRUPT!
I hope they don't try to change their rhetoric and just keep saying the SOS, the 08 election will be another Reagan type of sweep into the Presidency and at least the House!

Question for TH'ers
If the surge is working so well, why is the White House writing the words for the report supposed to be given by Petraus? Why do they want to give that report in "private" sessions? What are they trying to hide? Better yet, the true is they're just trying to control the spin. Such a shame, using the deaths of Americans for partisan gain. Much to pay by Repub's in '08.

B dogg
Lay the blame where it belongs , at the feet of the bombers. They did not have to kill women and children.

popyo...
quote: Such a shame, using the deaths of Americans for partisan gain."


Very true, Durbin, Kerry and Reid should be ashamed.

Factions of Islam
Eben should really try to get his facts straight before posting. It is the only way to establish credibility from knee jerk reactions of the "YOU ARE WRONG CAUSE I DONT LIKE YOU CROWD"

The insane crowd of both the left and right take up far to much room.

Eben stated that the majority in Syria is Shia but the fact is:
Sunni Muslims represented approximately 74 percent of the population (approximately 12.6 million persons). Other Muslim groups, including Alawi, Ismailis, and Shi'a, together constituted an estimated 13 percent of the population (approximately 2.2 million persons).

Source: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71432.htm

Almost Everyone in Iraq voted on sectarian lines, and the current Iraqi Gov't IS a coalition of Shia and Kurds with Kurds holding many prominent positions. As to the effectiveness of the current Gov I will leave that to others but please talk with FACTS. Also the Iraqi Gov has not imposed nor voted strict islamic law of the Syria/Saudi/Al-Qaeda type nor the Iranian type. In fact the majority population here rejects the Al-Qaeda enforced religious extremism.

Left is sinister
The left wants 1) economic problems for the US so it can propose tax-funded bailouts for the employed, homeless, bankrupt. and destitute; 2) negative news from Iraq so its anti-war eggs in one basket do not torpedo the entire spectrum, and 2) opportunity to get its destructive hands on the national health care system and wealth-making equities markets, which will sure as hell trigger the biggest recession since the '30s.

What a dreadful pol. movement, to have to constantly glom onto the worst in order to grab and maintain power, at the expense of citzens' personal choices and freedoms, for whereas inflation has boosted most costs since the late '70s from 10-25%, TAXES have risen 200-240%! And the Dems. want to end the Bush tax cuts that have lowered the deficit to 2% of the GNP and set daily records for increased revenues (to the cost of c. $2,500 more perfamily of 4 at $50,000 annually if Bush cuts lapse). Since Jan., the Dem. Cong. has already proposed an extra 1/2 trillion in spending. Who will pay for it? You and I will.

Progress, or not?
I don't want to discuss whether progress is being made, or not since there are so many things that go into that equation.

If you do support the situation currently there, I've got a question for you. Try to be honest and not just parrot the spin doctors.

Most of the US wants us out of Iraq. In order to stay there longer, the administration MUST be able to sell the country that progress is being made.

Getting an UNBIASED report to everyone is critical to selling that idea.

A few months ago (and I may have some of the specifics wrong), a group of 14 Republicans met with the President and told him bluntly that his Iraq policy was going to kill them in the upcoming elections. One of the points that I thought was extremely reasonable, was that the President had to get someone else to be the point person to sell the war. They hammered the point that, when it came to the Iraq war, the President had NO credibility any more. Nada. None.

In comes General Petraeus. Although I feel he could easily be pressured by the President, for obvious reasons, I felt that I was willing to go along with what he had to say.

In this morning's Chicago Tribune, they are reporting that the White House has already been putting the report together. General Petraeus is not the lead person, the White House is. Additionally, Condi Rice and Sec. Gates are going to present the report, NOT General Petraeus.

I realize that the report hasn't come out yet.

Now for my questions.

Doesn't this bother you? Bush sets Petraeus up as the honest, unbiased person and then reins him in right before his biggest report ever is to be presented.

Now the BIG question.

Given what Bush has been told about his credibility, don't you feel he's going to have an extremely hard time selling whatever rosy picture he paints in this report?

Tnsldr2
Perhaps you should learn to read a little more carefully. I did not say that a majority of Syrians were Shia. However, they are considered politically Shia because the ruling party there are Shia Baathists, which is one reason they support Hamas and Hezbollah.

As far as the rest of your post, it is a projection of your own based upon the fact that the Shia's have enacted a law that makes the Koran the basis of civil law, and empowered the Shia clerics to interpret and enforce it.

What does that have to do with your comments on
Saudi Arabia, Al Queida, or the rest?

Nothing.

Tinsldr2
Thanks for the facts. However, there are many on here that don't want or need facts because it does not suit their purposes.

I wonder if Eben realizes that Syria is actually controlled by the smallest minority? Probably not.

Any info you could forward about Iraqi govt. would be greatly appreciated.

As lastly but certainly not least, thankyou for your service in defense not only of this nation but for human rights in general. Have a great day!!!!

Funny Stuff
Why is it that some people are so willing to grab onto any and all negative news coming from Iraq, but when the slightest positive stuff comes out they go right into denial??

Phylo
So let me get this straight.

Biden who is an absolute hate-monkey when it comes to this administration "declares" the white house's presentation plan unacceptable and you go all squishy in the knees over it?

Yeah, I'd say there's some spin going on there alright and it's coming from the democrats.

Why don't they just come out and say that any progress in Iraq is bad for them and they won't accept it??

Phylo, you ARE out. Out of your tree...

The Surge is Working
The Iraqi government is not!

This is from the more liberal Brookings Institute:
http://www.brookings.edu/fp/research/projects/iraq/war.htm

These guys are both intelligent, and show balance, unlike many of their peers.

America's Left
Needs the effort in Iraq to fail, and will spin every single piece of news from their to fit their template of anti America, anti Capitalism hatred. They are totally invested in our defeat and will accept and in their delusions acknowledge only that. The rest of America wants to win, and will, with God's grace.

I'm interested to know....
Those of you who don't/haven't supported this war, what did you think hitting the twin towers was all about?

Moreover, what did you think this war was about to begin with?

Terror is...
"The "surge" is working in one area and the worst civilian killing occurs a day or two ago. It's whack-a-mole."

Not sure if you understand what this target was all about, but this bombing was carried out by al-k-duh on an innocent area just outside of Syria(who continues to allow al-k-duh to move back/forth)with whom they've had religious "disagreements" for decades and have intended this pogrom for centuries perhaps.

Your polemic is slightly misleading.

Try this a different way
Phylo is essentially making the same point that I did, albeit in a different way from my post at 10:05.

I'll ask again.

If 14 Republicans, bluntly, told the President that he had NO CREDIBILITY when it came to Iraq and that someone else had to be the lead person, why would any reasonable person believe what is now starting to evolve?

Petraeus is being put in the shadows and Rice and Gates are taking the lead.

Forget Biden.

I might believe Gates and Petraeus. RICE? Sorry, but her credibility was gone a LONG time ago.

Even Harder
To separate fact from democrat spin also.

people tend to see only what they want, be it republican or democrat.

I'm sure that the good in Patreaus' report will be highlighted by the republicans and the good will be downplayed or just rejected by the democrats.

It will be impossible to glean the truth from this no matter in which forum it's presented.

Perhaps a peek at Michael Yon's website will go a lot farther towards the truth than any political presentation, even if it comes from a general...

Hemi_Cuda
Separating the spin?

That's part of being an educated person.

At the same time, as I said, it's the REPUBLICANS who are telling the President that he's not going to be able to sell his BS any more. Any credibility that might have come out of this report has just gone down the tubes.

Tinsldr2
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!
God Bless You and Keep You!

dogjudge
It is definitely up to the individual to separate spin.

But democrats don't corner the market on being educated, and republicans don't corner the market on spin.

Something is Up!
The TH Liberal Screechers (Phylo, Vandumb, Big Blowhard) and The Liberal Blogosphere (Moron.org, PeterPuffington, The DailyCommunist) are turning up the volume (www.VictoryCaucus.com) and Fairy Reid, Dickless Durbin, Hitlery Clintonista, Granny Nanny, etc. are turning down the volume.

The Worm is Turning :)!

Hemi_Cuda
See we liberals and conservatives CAN agree on things.

Now if I can get you off of the Hemi Cuda thing, I know we'd REALLY be making progress.

I own an '81 Triumph TR8. Came engines that Triumph bought from Buick. All aluminum 215s. Mine is highly modified. Fun to drive when it isn't raining, which has been a lot lately in the Chicago area.

Aiding the ones who want to hurt us.

It still boggles my mind - that so many of our elected politicians AND our citizens actually want us to loose the war against radical Islam... simply for political gain or ideology.

And then they have the gall to demand, "Don't you even dare to question our patriotism."

Something beyond shameful.

dogjudge
Sounds like a sweet machine, but I'll take my beast over the little tinker toy anyday...

Another Chance to Spin
Gee, if things are going so well, why do you suppose the White House is trying to keep Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker from testifying publicly next month?

A PASSPORT
From here forward you will need a "PASSPORT", in order to know the TRUTH about this war!The war will be made smaller,not by activity,but by reporting.If everyday AMERICANS; want to be helpful,we should "CEASE" to put press on the President and his Generals,by just letting them execute this war.Paying attention to our "PENSIONS" may prove to be more Profitable and Prudent.

scooternyc

I'm interested to know....
Those of you who don't/haven't supported this war, what did you think hitting the twin towers was all about?

Moreover, what did you think this war was about to begin with?
--------

To begin with, this war was about catching the killers who attacked us, then things changed. The neocons had this idea, before bush was even elected, to show the world our "will," and that means taking Iraq, and now maybe, Iran.. leading us off to Iraq was a dismal thing to do...

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"

Bigg Dogg.

What...?!?

Progress
Today, Maliki and Talibani formed a new alliance between the mainstream Shia and Kurdish parties in order to govern. The Sunni's are not currently involved, and nothing was said of Sadr nor the Secular parties, both of whose ministers have also been boycotting the cabinet.

I find this positive because it indicates that a possible "party" system is coming together in which you have the majority and the opposition - which is how all democracy's operate. Currently, we've tried to get everyone inside of one tent, and then imposed a 2/3's rule on all important legislation. Needless to say, even mature democracy's wouldn't get much done with such a 2/3's rule. Imagine trying to get many on this board to join a "unity" government with the democrats. (Fat Chance)

The Kurds and Shia's have always had signifcant areas of agreement. Automonomous states and effective self rule were written into the consitution at the outset due to their insistence.

This may be the end of "national unity" and "gridlock", and the beginning of government. We may not agree with the end result, or even like it, but that's their decision in the end - not ours. Most of us would simply settle for some form of effective government.

It remains to be seen if Maliki goes ahead and kicks everyone out of the minsterial posts who constently undermine him (which is what we do over here), and whether or not he and the Kurds have decided to simply move ahead and implement their original plan - with or without our blessing.

Here's hoping.

does a picture tell a thousand words?
I have heard the Whitehouse plans to write the Petraeus speech on Iraq.

Is this true? Maybe the Whitehouse only means to provide some "context" in this matter. Cough.

I must concede I was deeply moved by the photograph of Bush's man in Iraq, Maliki, holding hands with the very man Bush has deemed to be the epitome of evil, Ahmadinejad.

Were others as deeply touched by this photo as me?


Eben
I agree.

Their "solution" may be radically different from Bush's utopian democracy vision, but given how much the Iraqis have suffered since the invasion, I hope they can come up with some system that works for them.

religious factionalism
Eben wrote:
The Shia's in the middle east are represented by Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. And this is a false statement.

The Syrian Ruling Party are Ba'athists which is a secular branch, however the leaders are of Sunni NOT Shia affiliation. The Ba'athists party that Saddam was in before we defeated him and his Army, was also secular Sunni, but often at odds with Syria. The Syrian Ba'athists until very recently outlawed political groups that pushed for extreme Muslim law of the type that is imposed in other countries in the area such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. The secular Ba'athists are opposed to the religious extremists such as the Sunni based Al-Qaeda, or the Jash al mahdi (spelled wrong) militia which is Shia and backed by Iran.

They all unite in hatred of America and Israel and will all co-operate to some extent towards the destruction of America.

However all this has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the Surge it is just background on the key players in the regional approach. The Surge of forces like I said in an earlier post was to focus on a specific area and in that area where i am now i see great improvement (but far FAR from perfection or readiness for Iraq Govt and Army to stand on their own).

Anyway I am off to smoke a Vegas 5 cigar. ya'all have a good night!

Ok before i sent this Eben also wrote about the Shia and Kurd getting together in Govt which is what i said earlier in a post so at least we agree on that.... now i am really going ........

Poorly written post
The only thing Cliff’s article lacks is any shred of evidence to support his claim.

Eben
How is it good that the sunnis are left out of the government? They are, ya know, the ones who are the insurgents, and the reason for the surge and more people dying. Its a disaster.

Excellent timing!
This article comes on the heels of 500 killed in Iraq, and the White House's own admission that they themselves will be writing the September Report, not Petreus.

I swear, you folks defy parody!

Tinsldr2
They all cooperate to some extent? AQ been said to have roasted tribal sunnis's kids in front of them. I don't believe it. I think Michael Totten wrote about it.

Cliff, shipmate
You underestimate the Deniers on Autopilot, for whom everything is evidence that the surge is failing and we are losing.

In fairness, we must acknowledge that the criteria for defining our end-state in the Iraq campaign -- while they HAVE been laid out -- are less distinctive and singular than the Allies' criteria for the end-state in WWII. The Third Reich and Imperial Japan surrendering satisfied our WWII objectives; there is no parallel SIMPLICITY of event that can satisfy us in Iraq, or the GWOT as a whole. It's not stupid or illogical to point that out.

(For our end-state objectives in Iraq, see this link:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html

But it can be disingenuous to insist that the lack of distinctive singularity in end-state is the only thing that matters. When the enemy consists of decentralized groupings of terrorists and guerrillas, the end-state will simply not be the same as it is when the enemy heads a nation-state with a uniformed army.

Our real problem here is dealing with a new paradigm around the question of what constitutes a threat and what it takes to justify military action. It doesn't make people either cowards or warmongers to reach different conclusions on that. But the very different conclusions infuse everything else, like our interim assessments of success or failure.

It's fair to say of many in the anti-war camp that they have already assumed away any possibility of armed force producing a useful, advantageous outcome in Iraq. This doesn't distinguish them from a lot of folks on the other side of the debate, but it does make their comments predictable, and render them as likely as anyone else's to be the product of bias and pessimism rather than analysis.

To some of those posting here,
you know the ones who couldn't wait to write their negative comments, a few casualties and they want to run in defeat regardless of the consequnces. The world knows about the democrats propensity to run. That knowledge is the terrorists strength against us.

My comments about a few casualties will cause some to immediately write in order to tell me how even a few are too many. This, of course, lets me know how compassionate they are and how heartless am I. Someone will also write to challenge my right to say what I said because I am not in the military. All of this passes as compelling arguements against this war.

Taft
At some point some power has to decide to govern. This group contains the two major Kurdish Parties, and the SIC and Maliki's Dawa. The unity government was in deadlock. They could not get 2/3's of anyone to agree on anything - thus, no progress. From the outset our invasion liberated the Shia's and the Kurds.

Sometimes we have to accept that 1/2 loaf. The Shia's and Kurds were never going to agree to many of the demands being made - even if it kept the civil war in play. They were not going to stand down Hakim's Badr militia/organization (which is a force in Southern Iraq), they were not going to back off on Kirkutz, and they were not going to accept Baathists back into the government. They've said this many times. Our idealism is wonderful - but if Saddam and the Baathists had crushed my religion and family for 30 years, and killed some, you could never convince me - or most Americans - to compromise or trust them a few years later.

There has never been an easy fix to Iraq. Saddam was a brutal thug. We want political fixes that ignore the brutality. Most of the Shia leaders were exiles. Their families were driven and some were killed.

What do we really want over here?

If the final war is the one of the Kurds and Shia's against the Sunni's, then do it now. We've already got over 4 million displaced people, we might as well finish the job and add another 1.5 million Sunni's now- and then, redraw the map.

What else is there, after all.

loco
You're right in a way. The terrorist hoped we would come to Afghanistan to be slaughtered like the Soviets, but that didn't work. The US and allies didn't get into a quagmire, but then when hope was lost Bush says lets invade Iraq. Bin Laden laughed for days.

At this point loco, what would you call a victory, and just how many dead troops are worth that victory?

Eben
What do we want over there?

Simple answer is a stable governemnt that's ready and willing to stand against radical isamists.

Unfortunately it's not accomplished simply, for all the reasons you list. I saw someone post here a while back that maybe Iraq should be divided into "states" for the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnis with all of them sharing in the oil money.

Nice theory, but how to get them to agree to anything is beyond me.

Also
I can understand the people that don't want anymore of our troops to get killed over there. While I can't imagine what it must be like to lose a loved in this conflict, I can sympathize.

However, those of us that use the deaths of soldiers as a reason to get out are not thinking with a clear head and, quite frankly, are playing right into the hands of the insurgents/terrorists.

They (the terrorists) predicted we wouldn't have the stomach to stay and fight. That the sight of dead American soldiers would weaken our resolve and that when the protesting started back home our country would be torn apart politically.

So far the terrorists have been right. They've predicted the exact pattern of American behavior during difficult times. I think we should stop proving them right, and resolve ourselves to the fact we are in this for the long haul, that they can't beat us on any level.

Until they turn on CNN and see pro-America rallies, I'm afraid that they will be emboldened by people like Sean Penn and Danny Glover.

While I think they're fine actors, I also think their behavior is despicable and should be condemned by Americans.

The light is on
and all the liberal cockroaches are beginning to scurry. I predict several will be stepped on before they make it to cover. The defeatists have a lot to answer for, and their day of reckoning will soon be at hand. Unfortunately, the media will not hold them accountable as they are themselves complicit. It will be up to us.

Petraus Report
I keep hearing that the Bush admin is writing the Petraus report. I know this was reported in the LA Times (hardly a reputable source). Are there any other sources for this?

"The simple facts..."
”To begin with, this war was about catching the killers who attacked us, then things changed. The neocons had this idea, before bush was even elected, to show the world our "will," and that means taking Iraq, and now maybe, Iran.. leading us off to Iraq was a dismal thing to do...”

Yes, indeed, the war in Afghanistan was about getting the killers(bin laden) but the taking care of the Iraq situation was on the table in the 2000 election, Bush and Cheney on several occasions spoke to the humanity issue that needed to be taken care of. (Much like people are speaking about Darfur(sp))

Additionally, I will point you toward Public Law 105-338, which Clinton signed on October 28, 1998(if I recall correctly) which clearly states the issues surrounding Iraq and the need for intervention. It also states that we need to support their regime change, however their people decide that.

Finally, U.N. Resolution 1441 clearly states why we made the decision to go into Iraq. While WMD was ONE of the issues, the other transgressions of Iraq are clearly outlined within Resolution 1441 (genocide of its people, harboring terrorists, creating wmd, etc.)

I’m not really sure why the opposition keeps going down this road.

The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

As I have implored the religious to scientifically explore their religion to unmask it for what it is; as I have implored the “tree huggers” to explore as much of the scientific data which disputes global warming hysteria, I now implore you to look these things up for yourself, do the research and make the conclusions for yourself.

“Don’t take refuge in false security of consensus”. – Christopher Hitchens.

Wow
Big Dogg, is there a reason you're being so combative and rude?

Hemi_Cuda
Lets be clear what our enemies goals are.

Al Qaeda Strikes Back
Bruce Riedel
From Foreign Affairs, May/June 2007

"Bin Laden's goals remain the same, as does his basic strategy. He seeks to, as he puts it, "provoke and bait" the United States into "bleeding wars" throughout the Islamic world; he wants to bankrupt the country much as he helped bankrupt, he claims, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s. The demoralized "far enemy" would then go home, allowing al Qaeda to focus on destroying its "near enemies," Israel and the "corrupt" regimes of Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. The U.S. occupation of Iraq helped move his plan along, and bin Laden has worked hard to turn it into a trap for Washington. Now he may be scheming to extend his strategy by exploiting or even triggering a war between the United States and Iran."

I mean
I can understand that tempers flare and emotions run high on this topic, but is it really necessary to treat fellow Americans this way??

Aren't we supposed to bridge some sort of gap with civil communication here?

scooternyc
Thats about the most impressive response I've ever gotten. I will take into account your facts and thank you. I haven't exactly followed the MSM's take on the war, not that you said that. I'm currently reading The Sorrows of Empire. Amazon usually has good reviews of books if your interested.

Taft
That is a very intriguing post.

To be honest I knew the reasons for going to war in Iraq, but I thought the timing was all wrong. I felt that we should've finished up in Afghanistan before opening up another front in that region.

Consider this: What if war with Iran was inevitable? They've been continuing their nuclear program regardless of what's been happening in Iraq. I doubt Bin Laden could orchestrate that.

Also, Someone pointed out that we should be aware of Russia and China. A weakened USA is good for them, no?

But you make a pretty compelling argument. The question is then, how to leave without shame and leave with an intact Iraqi government in place.

taft
I just googled Bruce Riedel. Very impressive resume.

I guess if anyone would know what they were talking about, it would be that guy!

scooternyc
That is an excellent post.

Words without reality?
Ideologues like Cliff May claim the "surge" is working because they want to continue to occupy Iraq. This isn't hard to understand. It is always possible to find "good things" happening in Iraq, so just emphasize the good and then claim the surge is working.

However, Cliff May, and others, never bother to explain how we will know the surge has worked. What needs to happen? What's the clincher? He never says. And he never will. He will always argue there is more work to be done because the Neocon agenda has always been to permanently occupy Iraq in hopes of redrawing the geopolitical map of the Middle East. The rubes will be easily duped by their favorite Neocon columnists or talk radio host and believe that all the failings in Iraq are due to the efforts of the liberal media. I just wonder how much longer this charade can continue.

Ira

Hemi_Cuda
Thanks for your comments. My beagle is demanding his walk, so off I am.

Iraq: nothing to win nothing to lose
The war in Iraq is not and has never been in our national interest. The war was an error from the start. Since this war has no bearing on our national interest it implies there is nothing for us to win in Iraq if we stay, and nothing to lose if we leave.

Let's assume the violence in Iraq subsides and the Maliki government pulls of a long shot and not only survives but reunites Iraq. So what? The government will still be follow the fatwas of the Ayatollahs, and support Hezbollah, Iran, and other terrorist states. If the Maliki government doesn't survive then Iraq will experience a protracted conflict until the various religious and ethnic enclaves self segregate. After this, Iran will influence the region.

It is meaningless to use the terms "win" or "lose" in Iraq that isn't in our interest. So we won't lose a thing if we leave, and we aren't going to win a thing if we stay. Therefore, we should withdrawal from Iraq immediately.

Red Tooth
You make some interesting points. So you could care less about what happens to the Iraqis should Iran rule the region?

Or what happens to the Iraqis caught in the middle of the protracted conflict?

I disagree, I think it's definitely in our best interests to have a stable government that fights AQ in the region.

The war was started in error because Afghanistan wasn't finished, and Saddam was a toothless tiger (except to his own people, just look at the mass graves sprinkled all over Iraq).

I think Saddam did have to go, but not when it happened.

Not sure
"never bother to explain how we will know the surge has worked. What needs to happen? What's the clincher? He never says. And he never will. He will always argue there is more work to be done because the Neocon agenda has always been to permanently occupy Iraq in hopes of redrawing the geopolitical map of the Middle East."

The surge works when you can see that the daily IED's and/or deaths are declining; additionally, when the safety of the country is in place(as is to be seen moving towards) then their government can reach the resolutions it needs to in order to form their government.

You have quite a bit of what is apparently inflammatory statements which have no data or evidence to support, from which you have posted.

A stable Middle East is very important, additionally some research on your part will reveal that Democracies typically are more educated and have less propensity toward war and other atrocities.

I would pose the question to you: do you think it important that all human beings be given at the very least, the opportunity to have freedom and democracy as we know how much better that government foundation is in comparison to others like socialism, authoritarianism,etc.?

Good for Petraeus
He literally wrote the book on counterinsurgency (you can find the link for it if you look up David Petraeus on Wikipedia in the Links section). It's mystifying that we didn't make him our commander before.

It's hard to argue with the success of Anbar, the calming of Diyala, and the securing of Baghdad's neighborhoods.

The thing we should be clear on is what our objectives are:

Overthrow Saddam - Check
Obtain a voter-approved constitution - Check
Obtain a voter-approved Iraqi government - Check
Obtain civil order - In Progress

Keep up the good work, General Petraeus, and my compliments to Cliff for an article that also explains the surge also involves a change in strategy, and at least some basics on what are included in those changes.

Interesting
That those who just flat out oppose the war deny even the tiniest of hints that there is any progress or good news.

And deny it vehemently. Just look at Big Dogg and Red Tooth. Why the mental block? Is just political? Do they hate this administration so much that they can't accept that maybe something's going right in Iraq?

All about being objective people. If you go into a situation looking for negativity, then that's all you will see.

Big Dogg
I understand retaliation, but you can't drop bombs on people here and expect any coherent response.

Also, to assume that you know right and wrong better than anyone is a little narcisistic, don't you think?

I mean, ever consider that you yourself could be wrong?

Bigg Dogg writes:
Several? In iraq yesterday, 250 people died and 350 were wounded due to Suicide bombers - and all that death and pain is laid at OUR feet, because we popped the cork out of the bottle and now we can't contain the evil that escaped. I love how flip the right-wing is about the death of OTHER people - can you imagine a suicide bomber taking out 600 people at the Yankees game -
oh, well, things happen - that is life...

War Pigs...

Ok Bigg Dogg I guess when Sadam Hussien and his sons gassed 5000 people at a pop it was OK? Using your logic Lincoln popped the cork when he invaded the Confederacy and lead to the deaths of 600,000 Americans. Was that worth it? The same bunch of Bush hating Clinton loving military loathers raised a stink because Bush 41 didn't fininsh the job and handed it off to their nanny 'n' chief. The fact is Clinton didn't do a thing about terrorism but lob a missle here or there when his own missle got him in trouble. GWB to his credit or discredit decided to do something rather than hand it off to his successor. Everyone talked about how bad Saddam was & how much of a threat he was until GWB decided to take action. And don't start the nonsense about the sanctions working. The sanctions against Iraq were not working partly due to the handwringing from the Bush haters but also from the Euro-trash who was doing busines with Saddam under the table. No wonder they were all against the war. I have one question; if we cut and run out of Iraq like you wish how many deaths will it take in Afghanistan before you call for a "strategic withdrawl"? Or am I to believe that is where you are willing to make some valliant last stand? Inquiring minds want to know.

Big Dogg
You just need to calm down. I understand what you're saying, but you're just not thinking straight.

Saddam was on the hit list since the first Bush (why he didn't finish it, I'll never understand). Clinton did have a policy of regime change, but I don't recall ever seeing that it was only to be decided by the Iraqis. if so, that was a foolish and empty policy.

Saddam was harboring terrorists. He was paying the families of suicide bombers, they were training in Iraq (remember those fuselages they found?).

Saddam was pursuing yellowcake, ie WMD materials. There were also thousands of tons of chemical weapons precursors sold to Saddam by dozens of countries. (Thank you Oil for Food).

So they aren't really lies, at least not to the degree you believe they are. And what you call fear I call a healthy concern for a rogue nation and dictator that wish us ill.

I do understand your concerns, but your delivery needs some polishing. Maybe if you calm down we can find some common ground.

Big Dogg
"And do you LOVE this administration so much that you deny what's before your very eyes? Just imagine this war - but with Bill Clinton leading the charge - then tell me how much patience and understanding you'd show..."

That's a yes.

I would certainly not be screeching about impeachment, nor would I come to site like this and throw around insults like I were some enlightened being that knew right from wrong better than everyone.

If Clinton believed we needed to invade, I would support our POTUS. I would have questions and concerns like I do now, but you let your emotions cloud your judgement. Your belief system is nothing more than your personal preferences and prejudices.

Be a little more objective in your views, understanding both sides of an issue is the key to common ground, brother.

Also
Admitting that your problem with Bush is what drives your denial of any progress in Iraq is a good start.

Maybe you can admit to yourself that you could be wrong on some things too?

Hemi
"So you could care less about what happens to the Iraqis should Iran rule the region?"

It's not that I don't care about the Iraqis. The point is that the U.S. military doesn't belong in Iraq, cannot heal the sectarian divides, and isn't welcome. Our presence in Iraq has created many problems, and hasn't made anything better. Why assume things will change for the better now?


Red Tooth
"Our presence in Iraq has created many problems, and hasn't made anything better. Why assume things will change for the better now?"

Actually the murders committed by Saddam and his sons have decreased dramatically....

And it's not an assumption that things are getting better, there is evidence that it indeed is improving over there. See, this is where your problem with Bush is keeping you from being rational about this.

You're obviously a smart fellow, but you need to let go of your personal preferences and prejudices like Big Dogg. I'm sure you'll see that what you believe isn't nearly as dire as you think it is.

Just look at the Balkans
as an example of how conservatives lined up behind Clinton when he took us into war. There was nary a complaint about how the Serb-Croat conflict was not in our national interest. The only folks who make this scurrilous claim are the left, who use it as a smokescreen to cover their complete, total and utter lack of patriotism. As if the world has been changed by dissenters.

Loyal Conservative
The Balkans are a great example. Clinton did indeed stick our noses into a civil war over there.

But I expect you'll be getting a reply shortly stating that the Balkan didn't cost us 4000 soldiers.

I thought we were right to go into the Balkans then, I think we should've gotten rid of Saddam in Iraq, just maybe after we finished with Afghanistan.

Either way, our soldiers are volunteers and they signed the papers. To suggest that we leave based solely on the fact that they might have to fight doesn't do anybody any good. These are brave, tough, highly trained people. I have every confidence in them.

Bigg Dogg
Haven't seen a response from you yet, you still around?

News Report
It's interesting that ten minutes before I sat down here at the computer, while eating a late lunch, I was watching a TV news program report the opposite of what's in this article. According to national polls---I think PEW but I wasn't paying very close attention---a majority of the American people do not trust either the Pentagon or the White House or General Petraeus to tell them the truth, and they say that their feelings about the war will not be altered by what they expect to be spin.

Progress Assessment
There are further reports that Bush proposed that Patraeus and Crocker give only a private, closed doors assessment, and that Gates and Rice were to give the public hearing assessment in front of the defense and state committees. As you can imagine, Levin and Biden weren't too accomodating. Further, the reports now seem to be saying that Petraeus will give input, but the White house will write the report. This contradicts what has been routinely stated for a while now, which is that Patraeus will produce a report for Congress.

In any case, since Patraeus is the most credible spokesman they have on the war, I would think that trying to substitute Rice may be a mistake. Patraeus is both liked and respected. Rice is a little tarnished.

Odd situation. Unless Patraeus is a little more of a straight shooter than the politicians like to see.

tanabear
"Which terrorists? He tried to capture Zarqawi on several different occasions. The camp that you are referring to, Salman Pak, was anti-terrorist training camp."

Hezbollah, Hamas, and they were most certainly not anti-terrorist training camps. What is your evidence of this?

"No , he wasn't. This claim came from the Uranium-Niger documents. It later turned out that they were forgeries."

Where's your evidence of this? Do you dispute the thousands of tons of chemical weapons precursors he bought with UN money? Do you dispute that Saddam wished us ill, that he plotted to assassinate our president? That he was responsible for murdering thousands upon thousands of his own people?

You can't possibly mount a credible defense of Saddam on any level. The man had to go. I just have a problem with the timing.

Really?
"Actually the murders committed by Saddam and his sons have decreased dramatically...."

That's because they're dead. But how is Iraq better off? Let's see: since our invasion we have 1) triggered a civil war 2) spread the Iranian revolution to Iraq by encouraging democracy 3) sparked the third largest global refugee crisis and 4) started a conflict with Shiite militias who had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11.


Double Mindedness
There is enough to go around. I voted Bush twice, donated a bunch and was in favor of Iraq. But here we are now, and I've changed.
Sure hit me with ALL the cliche's. They are tired and worn out people. I know the consequences of failure. I do not favor walking away abruptly. But, crowing about successes is utterly absurd, and complaining about media highlighting problems is also silly. Sure I hate media lies, but when they report a bomb and its death toll I see my fellow conservatives and Republicans acting as if that should not be reported.
I do not believe we are creating more trouble by being there except the trouble that is right there. Anyone not blinded by party loyalty can see that when we squeeze the balloon one place it bulges elsewhere. Now the Kurds, once stable and peaceful with their own set of problems, are involved more and more.
Those fellow conservatives who say they would not have complained if Clinton did this are full of it. I certainly would have complained...a lot...thats called intellectual honesty folks...try it.


To apopletic
CNN reported the same thing today, and said also that an association of news reporters has requested its own meeting with Petraeus so they won't just get the White House version (which surely could be written this afternoon, since its message is surely decided already). It's laughable that anyone is expected to believe a report from Bush on whether or not Bush's war has been successful.

The Pentagon and the White House have been caught red-handed covering up truth and substituting favorable PR fabrications. Therefore, by definition, they lie. Once you have lied, you are a liar. So it's not surprising that both P and WH have a credibility problem.

The mirror (part 1)
“is an out and out lie”

No it is not and you can find it for yourself on the web.

Yes, President Bush did speak directly to the issue regarding wmd. There were many such accounts, first hand knowledge, of such weaponry – you need only read Saddam’s Secrets or The Bomb in My Garden to get you started. But it wasn't the only reason, it happens to be the one you and others have placed your focus because it completes your polemic of the President.

I need only provide you with this link which clearly shows the NY Times casting aspersions on our government for providing information by which to build a bomb - from the documentation gathered in Iraq:

http://tks.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTJjYzYzYmMwNjY3N2YwNWE5NDQ3ZTQzZDczZWU5N2Y=


Further, Saddam may have not had the wmd caches as was outlined in Powell’s speech to the U.N. but he did continue to employ all the experts and scientists along with his continued threats and rhetoric to the U.S. and other nations, about such weaponry.


Now, you’re then positing to us all that we should NOT have invaded Iraq given all the factual and circumstantial evidence I have presented here and this is only what I have to offer.

You’re also suggesting that all the nations then who signed onto this, who saw the same intelligence reports, which both houses of congress and the senate, were all privy to, we’re themselves lying.

If you are suggesting that the evidence was bogus, then to whom do we lay the responsibility of each Congressional person and Senatorial person to have researched the evidence and it’s validity.

If you blame the President, then you must also hold responsible every Senator and Congressperson who voted for the war, all of them were privy to the same evidence.

(part 2 coming)

The mirror (part 2)
...You can say, "well they trusted him". Did they? Given their behavior at the 2000 election and all their rhetoric afterwards was it still not THEIR individual responsibility to research it for themselves? This doesn't negate responsibility.

Now, given that we had gone through this game with Saddam for over 10 years and about 12 resolutions of bringing him into compliance, all the while he was killing his people, etc. when do you think we should have done something?

Are you suggesting that the United States be isolationists and not take up the responsibility of supporting the global nations on democratizing or at the very least, given humans the freedom of choice for which you so grandly enjoy?

Finally, to what end of the criteria are you considering that we would dismiss such information?

Which evidence do we dismiss?

Based on what criteria should we dismiss it?

Whom do we discredit?

Based on what criteria do we discredit them?

What are the costs in lives if we do and something occurs?

What are the long term results if we don’t?


Do you apply this same standard to say, global warming?

Certainly these are questions that undoubtedly you’ve asked about your stance on global warming?

Or have you?

Perhaps then all the evidence for global warming in predicated on selling it to everyone based on fear.

Bigg Dogg
"I think that's a cop out on your part - I back up everything I post with source material - I do get excited - but that's because the right blames Americans for their defeats - they blamed the protesters and the media for 'Nam - just as they do with this failed effort - they smear good Americans like Murtha and Kerry as cowards and traitors, they use terms like surrender monkeys or imply that the left wants the terrorists to win - they use fear mongering tactics like "they'll follow us home," they advocate nuclear war with third-world countries that never laid a finger on America! It's hard not to get angry..."

Not a cop out at all. just pointing out that you may not be thinking with a clear head on some of this stuff. Wouldn't you agree that you lash out rather than civily exchanging views? Also, you should let up on the superiority thing. You don't corner the market on knowledge.

Now You can't dispute that Nam's defeat was a politically motivated defeat, right? You know that our military won every major engagement, right?

I have a problem with Kerry and Murtha. These 2 gentlemen both desparaged our military. Kerry did it during Nam and was proven to be either exagerrating his claims or just plain falsifying them. Murtha just flat out hates this administration, I question whether or not he has the country's best interests in mind.

You have it in your head that we've already been defeated in Iraq. Just stop and think rationally for a second. This is just not true, we're still there and the news coming out is good for once.

Again, at the risk of sounding like Yoda, let go of your feelings, let go of your hate for Bush. Just give it a shot, try and see things from the other point of view. Think common ground...

Red Tooth
"That's because they're dead. But how is Iraq better off? Let's see: since our invasion we have 1) triggered a civil war 2) spread the Iranian revolution to Iraq by encouraging democracy 3) sparked the third largest global refugee crisis and 4) started a conflict with Shiite militias who had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11."

Stop being so hysterical, you're right, it was a bad idea at that time. I still believe that eventually we needed to get rid of Saddam.

Iraq is better off in one regard. They don't have to worry about Saddam and his sons murdering them. The rest? Well we have to finish what we started. Leaving now because you feel there's nothing in it for us isn't the right thing to do now, don't you agree? If not, then just admit that you could care less how many Iraqis get killed.

And that's OK too if that's how you look at it. I'm just saying that I don't look at it that way.

Hemi
We owe them security. They owe us some progress on the political front so we can make that security work for somebody. That's my trade-off.

The real question becomes - how long do we wait for that political progress? And what do we do if we find ourselves still waiting next spring when it comes time to send the surge troops home for a rest?

I'll bet that's your dilemma - just like it's mine. It's not enough for American's to tell our troops that they "support" the war. The Iraqi clergy and politicians must also show them that they support the effort.

I hope that what transpired today will lead to decisions of some sort - even if they're not popular with all the sects in Iraq.

Frankly, I don't need much help being skeptical over the likely end result of the war. So if these people actually want freedom - however that translates - then they need to reach for it.

Rob

"Give it up. The anti Bush crowd is a woulda-coulda-shoulda group. They constantly harp on all the things Bush shouldn't have done, they harp on what they would have done and they wonder what could have been done. They have no answers for what we need to do now (except cut and run) and they do not care that we are killing those that want to kill us and they will NEVER N-E-V-E-R acknowledge good news from Iraq and say they are pleased we are making progress and talking to Iran. They will pile negatives on top of negatives, but will never give Bush or America credt for anything over there. NEVER"
---------
That really is distorting same basic facts. The surge was the result of the great "decider's" rebuke of a plan, the ISG. It should have been taken into consideration considering nobody trust this leader anymore, and may have given our vain struggle a bi-partisan flavor. The dems need to plan a new ISG pronto because Bush has as much said, I'm looking at what Petraeus has to say and I say its a go. All b.s. and all the could be expected coming from the Rove mind. sad really.

Rob
Terrorists also love failed states and iraq fills that bill. The only better thing would be if we could destabilize another huge ME country, like Iran, that would really make their day. The plan Cheney the war expert has is to bomb all of Iran, not really worrying about the nuclear sites, in the way, so I suppose, the Iranians will rise up and become a stable democracy. Scary

Rob
I miss-read you sorry, I agree.

funky
Give it up man. There was no lie about WMD. Even if sadaam had no WMD (he did, but assume for the sake of argument), no one knew he didn't have WMD. Was WMD the sole reason we invaded. Of course not. Is it relevant now? Of course not. This was about forcing change in the middle east. Was then, is now. Get used to it.

Again Lilly...
Who would you have me believe: the liberal, defeatist, left wing media, who in concert with the Democrap minions are plotting to take away our arms, nationalize health care and will ultimately result in you wearing a burkha (because they didn't succeed in giving surrendering to Germany or the USSR)? Or our shining president and his trusted cabinet, who no doubt stay awake night and day thinking of ways to keep the Homeland safe? It is obvious to everyone but the most treasonous liberal out there (or am I being redundant?) that the Bush team has carefully researched every scenario, and that the surge is part of the ultimate roadmap to victory. So let's all cut the "patriotic dissent" gobbledygook and root team Bush to the win!

Hemi
"The rest? Well we have to finish what we started. Leaving now because you feel there's nothing in it for us isn't the right thing to do now, don't you agree? If not, then just admit that you could care less how many Iraqis get killed."

Iraqis are getting killed right now due to the presence of US troops. What happens if we withdraw? Perhaps more Iraqis will be killed or perhaps less. No one knows. What we do know is that Americans are being killed now; Iraq isn't a strategic concern of the United States and trying to make Iraq work isn't a role for the US military.

"And that's OK too if that's how you look at it. I'm just saying that I don't look at it that way."

Caring really doesn't have anything to do with it. Those who favor a continued occupation of Iraq are acting of some altruistic concern for the Iraqi people. It's politics and saving face. If we leave Bush will be seen as a failure and they don't want to look at the cold reality: they supported a misbegotten war. People who counsel us to stay in Iraq are just too stubborn to admit they were wrong.

I wonder why this compassion only extends to the Iraqi people, and not the people of Darfur or others? Because Bush's poll numbers are connected to the outcome in Iraq. It's politics.

Meanwhile, on the homefront....
Read this...
http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987

And be sure to watch the newscast, whose link is on the left hand side of the web page above.

After you do that, you may want to peruse a few of the latest Executive Orders:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

Such as the one issued July 17 and the one issued August 2.

The, take a look at Presidential Directive 51:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

Hhmmm.... Anyone see a problem here?

Democrats and other leftists....
have invested in defeat of the US Military. If this crowd was around during WWII they would have lobbied for peace and we would have lost that war. The violence will not cease if we leave Iraq prior to victory. They will come after us

Thighmaster is missing
Anybody seen him? I think he was taken out by one of the PC Police. RIP Brother!

Catch you on the rebound?

dogjudge writes:
Thursday, August, 16, 2007 10:05 AM
"Progress, or not?
..."Most of the US wants us out of Iraq..."
================

I beg to differ. No one has asked me...and I refuse to take the word of a pollster who can word any question so that the answer will result in what they want it to! What is the saying? Numbers don't lie, but liars know numbers?

Any student in a statistics class understands immediately how you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say!




Brujo Blanco writes:
Thursday, August, 16, 2007 8:03 PM
"Democrats and other leftists....
have invested in defeat of the US Military. If this crowd was around during WWII they would have lobbied for peace and we would have lost that war. The violence will not cease if we leave Iraq prior to victory. They will come after us"
======================
As noted in above post, not "everyone" or not even a "majority" of Americans wants us out before victory. This is just one more scam the Democrats and mainstream media are trying to pull. Thank heavens the silent majority is learning to be less "silent"

tinsldr2
Please keep posting - you give us a view we would not have otherwise! And thank you for your service to our country! Your sacrifices are appreciated more than you will ever know. I'm sure it must be hard to hear all the negative news from the msm and from various members of Congress...but please know that you are in the hearts and prayers of many more Americans who don't have a similar platform from which to speak.

Thank heaven for TH and other sites for giving the ordinary citizen the opportunity to express our thoughts and THANKS!

Thanks, Cliff
for keeping us up to date on this very important matter. It will be interesting to see all the "spin" between now and the actual report.

CapeConservative writes:
"Thank heavens the silent majority is learning to be less "silent"

Funny you should say that, "nolongersilent" was my previous handle.

I do agree though, the squeeky wheel syndrom has just about run it's course in this country. Examples of professional, minority whiners covered a lot of ground in the NAACP, the last 6 years we've seen some remarkable results out of CAIR, now the Mexicans want their piece of the pie with La Raza. I say enough already.

The Shame Card
It has become the favorite tactic of the left. Devoid of any arguments, accusations of hate, shame, xenophobia, racism and sanctimonous rantings intended to make people feel bad. Reminds me of a parent, "Now aren't you ashamed of yourself?" NOBODY cares anymore about the feeble attempts of superiority! This rhethoric has been so overused it has become trite and trivial. Quit wasting your breath and go tell someone who gives a flying fig.

The whole premise of the Constitution is limited government. The whole premise of the left is huge and expanding govt, therefore anti-Constitutional! I am former Dem who left when the party went left and fell on the edge.

ApolloSpeaks
That's one thing EVERYONE (except you and me, apparently) have conveniently forgotten! Can you imagine how emboldened he would be if he were still in power today, after TWICE being left off the hook for his transgressions? And his two sons, have we forgotten about them? No doubt about it, as bad as things are today, things would be much worse if we had sat on our hands and done nothing (again).


funky P: Not ONE word of truth in your

post...

Typical of all the lunatic liberal posts on this thread.

Amazing!





funky p
Did you know the moon is made of cheese? No really, I read that somewhere, weird huh?

funky p
Feel free to share that with your friends

Boromir's Horn: Good call! :-) LOL
.

Boromir's Hor
I've heard of Iraqis, who had family members killed by saddam, say that if they could have him back they'd kiss his feet. Sadly, rwers forget that sanctions had worked, no WMD. I

Taft: Oh pa-lease! You've heard?

Cut us all a break!


Anne
I found a site with the quote I mentioned.

"I am Shiite," Ali said. "My uncles and cousins were murdered by Saddam's regime. I wanted desperately to get rid of him. But today, if Saddam's feet appeared in front of me, I would fall to my knees and kiss them!"
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=34601

Its hard to believe, yes. Maybe this a fake, I guess its possible, but after reading what life is like there not hard for me to believe. When you still have thousands of people leaving their homes for the great unknown, you know somethings wrong.

Watch Out
Hey you lefty loons; on September 15, 2007, President Bush is going to declare marshall law and suspend the constitution; suspend all civil rights, lock "little Puppy", "funky P", "tannabare", etal. in a dungeon and throw away the keys.

He will arrest all the democrat congressmen, excuse me, congresspersons, and some of the republicans such as Snow, Spector, Stephens, etc.

He will then use our atomic arsenal to bomb Iran, China, Russia, and invade Saudia Arabia (it's the oil you see!).

Next he will annex Mexico and Canada and establish the Amero to replace the US dollar. And, declare that all US citizens are illegals and all illegals are now citizens. This guy is dangerous.

If you don't believe me you have your head where the sun don't shine.

This makes as much sense as 90% of the garbage on this thread.

Did most of you ever get through the 6th grade? The mentality exhibited here is frightening!

Please note that May presents no facts
to support his claim that the surge is working. He chronicles the opinions of a couple of politicians, contrasts and compares Rumsfeld and Patreaus, invokes changes in attitude in Anbar that have are not the result of the surge, outlines future campaign and expresses assurance that they will succeed.

And where is the discussion of the political, economic, and sectarianism that are at the core of true success in Iraq? Absent these essential considerations, this piece marks May as a political hack of the worse kind in my book.


Bryce2
To present what you seem to expect would be a major position paper; not an opinion piece which is what May's article is. It might be wise to hold judgement until the release of the General's report next month before calling him a hack.

How many pages would it take to thoroughly address even one aspect of your concerns, such as the economic situation?

I do find it unfortunate that people who post their thoughts seem to think that they must insult the president and anyone they disagree with. It has ever been thus as Lincoln will testify when you meet him in the next life.

Tenore2
Even an opinion paper succeeds or fails based on the basic rules of debate, present an arguement, support your arguement. I have reread this piece and nowhere does he present a standard by which one could reasonably deny progress was being made.

As to his omissions, a paragraph citing some improvement on the the ground in these crucial arenas would have been sufficient to make his case, and would hardly have been restrictive in terms of space. Heck, he could have omitted the silly bit about the biased questions from reporters.

More importantly, the success of the surge must by design be conflagated with the larger issues of sectarianism etc...because they are the foundation the surge was intended to facillitate.

Our History
The colonies declared their independence 4 July 1776 and the war ended 3 September 1783. When did the United States of America establish the Constitution under which we operate now? Does anyone know? It was not until New Hampshire ratified it on 21 June 1788 making the required ninth state for initiation. The Federal Government officially started operating under the Constitution on 4 March 1789, which was before North Carolina and Rhode Island ratified it.

It took this country almost 6 years to establish our current Government. Even then, the Constitution contain several compromised that needed to be worked, some of which required a war costing the country 110,000 killed in action, 360,000 total dead, 275,200 wounded from the North and 93,000 killed in action, 258,000 total dead 137,000+ wounded from the Confederacy. That is over 1,030,000 casualties.
We have amended the Constitution a total of 27 times. There have been Over 10,000 Constitutional amendments have been introduced in Congress since 1789; in a typical Congressional year in the last several decades, between 100 and 200 are offered.
It is unjust, inconceivable and unrealistic given our history and the continued problems that we have under our Constitution to expect an instant paradise coming out of Iraq. They are doing exactly what we and every other successful constitutionally limited government have done. Only time will tell if they are successful. The Judgment of Time has yet to pass it’s final verdict on OUR country, and yet, those with limited foresight and intelligence have declared Iraq a failure.

DVangura
Its good to be optimistic, but reality comes first. Our founding fathers had a long tradition of government and rights before there creation. The Iraqi government was assembled by Bremer and is shackled by our presence. We don't understand their culture or try to and by reading many posts on blogs, most rwers appear to hate the Muslim's religion.

Taft
With a name like Taft, one would presume that you may have an inkling of historical knowledge; but, I somehow don't get that feeling.

Our founding fathers were not a unified group of people who had a long tradition of government. Who were the founding fathers? How many were slave holders? How many were peasants? how many were men of letters? How many were men honor? How many sought the common good as opposed to regional objectives? How many compromises were made to get enough signatures to sign the constitution? How was the question of future slavery resolved?

I could go on and on; but I think this illustrates, at least, to some extent, some of my reasoning.

DVangura is right! We cannot expect sudden cooperation among a very diverse group such as founf in America, much less as found in Iraq. The one thing that I believe is common to all mankind is an inherent desire for individual freedom; it may be suppressed, but is there nevertheless.

I find it amazing that so few Americans know so little about the founding of this nation. In fact, it appears that if we had had pollsters available duriong that time, the majority would have been AGAINST THE REVOLUTION! There were many King worshippers, especially in the northern areas.

How many Americans have ever read the writng of Lincoln and understand his approach to the Union versus Freedom? How many, actually, have read the constituion? Who is the CIC? It is not the General!

Comments????

Tenore
Just so I understand your position. You think, with time, Maliki's government will come together and be a functioning democracy, and not just a joke? I'd like to see it happen, but waiting around for a miracle, while our troops are slaughtered and billions are spent, where things like bridges here are falling, should make us think long and hard.

Taft
Let me think a minute! What does a functioning democracy have to do with anything? The US is not a functioning democracy, it's a Representative form of government. I emphasize the need to study the constitution.

Now:

Maybe you would prefer to leave Iraq ASAP (like on January 1, 2008) and let Iran, etal., walk in and take over. They can then execute all former supporters of the US efforts, and install a Shiite dictatorship. They can then atomize Israel and anyone else in that region who opposes them. (They will get the bomb by invading Pakistan if they don't already have it.)

Nrxt they will cut off the world's major source of oil since we here in the US must save the cariboo in the north oil rich areas. But we can turn all our farmlands into fuel producing crops so Al Gore can fly his jets and the masses can starve since there will be no food.

We won't have to spend billions because we won't have billions to spend, we will all be gone along with the dinosaurs.

I cannot understand what you are trying to say. Yes we have a bridge that fell; well under your scenario, we will not need bridges.

Do you honestly believe that the terrorists will not use an atom bomb here if thay can? If you do, I pity my 21 grandchildren and anyone else under the age of 76!

Tenore
21 grandchildren! That's great.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. Iran, isn't the boogyman its made out to be. You like history, read up on Iran and 1953. Also, did you know, for a middle east country, women have it pretty good there? Over 50% of college students are female. I'll let you have the last response, and thanks for the dialogue.

Taft: You are kidding again, right???
"Iran, isn't the boogyman its made out to be."

Umm, does the name Ahmadinejad ring a bell???

How about "Death to America?" Remember that one?

And how about the al qaeda crossing the Iranian - Iraqi border and killing Iraqis and American troops? Of course you MUST have read about that?

Please tell all of us that you're just kidding!





Some facts are not facts at all
We left Vietnam when the Democratic Congress would not give Nixon anymore money for the war.

After we left the area somewhere around 4million people are estimated to have died in Vietnam and the countries around it.

The people that were bombed in Iraq the other day are considered infidels like us by Muslims. Hence the reason for the attack and there is almost no security in that area due to no presence of terrorists previously.

Joe Wilson lied, his wife did suggest he go to Niger, the email was published the other day but you won't see that in the MSM. And the foreign minister of Niger did tell Wilson that Iran and Iraq both asked to meet with them. To do what get some tea?

Congress is the one that ran up the spending and then also shoved the Homeland Security Dept down Bush's throat.

Ask Murtha about earmarks he seems to know a great deal about those. Will he ever apologize to the guys he called murderers and have now been exonerated?

Yes our deaths are up, we left the bases to go fight like we should be. What you are not hearing about are the military victories over there. But we are also not hearing about as many attacks in Bagdad any more are we?

It's a war and we need to finish what we started regardless of how we got there. If we leave to soon we leave a state that radical Islamists will take over and kill lots of people.

Hey funky, you need to go to ejectejecteject.com and get rid of some of those conspiracy theories riding around in your brain tormenting you.

Taft, Anne
Well I agree that we will probably not agree! And

ANNE: Good reply!

Now, I have learned the hard way that too often we are in danger of becoming somewhat arrogant. One of the reasons that has been given to prove that we are wasting our time and money trying to help those poor beknighted souls in Iraq is that they can't possibly govern themselves; they don't have proper background.

May I remind you that more than 500,000 lives were lost and untold cost to preserve the union so that the blacks could be freed. (Be careful, many people do not know the true motives that Lincoln had in his determination to preserve the union; he know that slavery could only be ended if it could be contained, and it could only be contained if the union could be preserved.)

So, the very excuse used to say that we need to get out of Iraq is the same that could have been said about the blacks. Not only that, but how many years of democratic tradition did Japan or Germany have? ZERO!!!The same could be said about Iran, except for the Shah who Carter betrayed leading to the Islamic dictatorship.

Recently, a woman was stoned in Iran because of a honor killing. So, I would heitate to hold up Iran as a model of democracy.

I appreciate the dialogue, but I wish that people would try to seek truth and leave the left wing emotion(s) out. There is so much to learn; and I personally believe that all mankind have God like attributes, but evil lurks and tries to restrain our better selves.

By the way, I lived some of the history; I was in the army during the Korean war, 1953.

God bless this nation.

Anne
How about "death to America"? I read a pretty good book called 444 days all about it, and the narrative of 25 or so of the hostages. You may be interested in their story and the circumstances around the take over. One thing to consider, Iran is a friend of our good allies Maliki and Kharzai. You don't really give me much debate to work with here, except incredibility. The "wipe Israel off the map," thing isn't what it sounds like. Ahmadejad wants a new regime not genocide. You know there are more Jews in Iran than anywhere in the ME, except Israel. Iran has a member in its parliament, and see this link.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2007/MFA+launches+Persian-language+website+08-Jul-2007.htm

And thank you for none of the moonbat, libtard, meme.

God Bless the Nation too

Taft
It's too late to give a serious reply to the above; if you are still around tomorrow, I'll spend a little time with you if you wish. You seem like a nice "person" (I hate to assume your gender, but it's probably male; if not forgive me. I'm definitely male.)

Nothing would please me more than to believe that Iran was not a serious threat; I just can't buy that based on what I know at this time. Note that I left the door open; "at this time."

I don't know if you are a believer in the Bible, but if you are, I'd be interested in your comments about Isaiah 19:18-25. (Remember, Assyria is Iraq as we know it today.)

ANNE: Same question; or to any one else who is interested.

By the way; I am also Tenore from another e-mail address. I sang opera as a tenor.

Tenore2

Thanks Tenore for the compliment. This is totally off thread but I think the Korean War is much too forgotten in our history. I'm reading the River and the Gauntlet and find it fascinating. Can't figure out who Sigman Rhead is??

Taft
Sigman Rhee was the UN Secretary General at that time.

The Korean war was terrible; I was fortunate in being sent to Germany but one of my cousins was killed there. One of my best friends, who is 75, spent several years on the front lines. I'm no hero, but he definitely was. Of course we all went where we were sent. I served in the First Infantry Division, The Big Red One; Ist MP Company. Not that that's of much interest, it just goes to show how fast time goes by.

Did you check out Isaiah?

They voted several times to stop funding
Go see what really happened, yes Nixon was pulling out troops but they pulled funding for troops in a couple of countries and then finally Vietnam.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070506/14vietnam.htm
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