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Tuesday, June 02, 2009
Chuck Norris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Got Your Permit To Study the Bible?
by Chuck Norris
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Recently a California pastor and his wife were required by San Diego County officials to obtain a permit to hold a Bible study in their home.

"What?! Is this a joke?" I wondered as I heard the news for the first time. It was no joke. Rather, it's a First Amendment nightmare and possibly a foreshadowing of what's to come.

Are you prepared for a future in which you hear, "Got your permit to study the Bible?"

*** Special Offer ***

On April 10 (Good Friday), a county code enforcement officer visited the home of David and Mary Jones after receiving a complaint about their Christian gatherings. The Jones' attorney, Dean Broyles, president of The Western Center for Law & Policy, conveyed in disbelief, "The county asked (Mrs. Jones), 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say "amen"?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say "praise the Lord"?' 'Yes.'"

The officer then warned the family to "cease and desist" the "religious gathering" or they would face weekly fines. A few days later, the county delivered a citation claiming that the Joneses were guilty of "unlawful use of land" and mandating them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit."

At first, I thought, "They must have a large congregation meeting in their home to warrant this type of citation and prompt this type of commotion, right?" Actually, according to their lawyer, the Joneses have been hosting weekly Bible studies in their home for about five years, with an average attendance of only about 15 people.

Broyles appropriately responded, "If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?"

Well, this past weekend, barraged by hundreds of complaints after WorldNetDaily broke the news to the international community, San Diego County officials informed the world that they'd backed down from requiring the Joneses to obtain a permit. Despite their retraction (based solely upon public pressure, I might add), however, I am appalled at how far the county's enforcement and encroachment crossed the constitutional line and became a flagrant disregard for Americans' right to exercise their religious faiths. And I'm concerned that we will see far more of these overreaching governmental actions in years to come.

As Mary Jones shared with Fox News: "The implications are great because it's not only us that's involved. There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we're interested in is setting a precedent here -- before it goes any further -- and that we have it settled for the future."

I'm not expecting county officials to be constitutional lawyers, but they should be aware of these basic precepts of America's makeup. For example, prior to the San Diego officials' recanting their position regarding the Joneses' Bible study, Chandra Waller, the general manager of the county's Land Use and Environment Group, declared, "The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area."

"Very gray area"? Is there anything "very gray" about the First Amendment?

I agree again with Broyles, who explained further to Fox News: "The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion. I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."

Part of the genius of America's Founding Fathers was to provide and secure a foundation for our freedom of religious belief. The First Amendment simply reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Could it be any clearer that government may not prohibit "the free exercise thereof"?

Now more than ever, we need to be like the Joneses! Fight for the First Amendment and your freedom to exercise your religion.

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Chuck Norris is a columnist and impossible to kill.
 
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unbelievable
absolutely unbeleivable!!

OBAMA
Who is Obama...Really?

What do we REALLY know about HIM...Really?

What Bible did he use in the Inauguration? Really? What was in the BOX, Really?

So much for "Transparency" everyone, don't you agree? All the interviews during his run for president and the much stuttering answer's, that is if you can call them answers, esp. about abortion, stem cell research which were major issues among a few others, healthcare and social security, economics etc... what in the first 100 days has he done to improve the economic structure of this country and any other POSITIVE PROMISES? Actually Obama has performed quite the OPPOSITE in causing Chaos... for you "Will" this means: a state of which chance is Supreme; also: the inherent upredictability in behavior; in other words: a state of Utter Confusion... That is exactly what OBAMA and all of HIS Camp are about, Utter Confusion... God says I am not of confusion, God has HIS plan and knows exactly what the end will be... There will never be a Government on the face of this earth that will EVER KEEP ME FROM SERVING GOD, GOD OF ABRAHAM, GOD OF ISAAC AND GOD OF JACOB, THE ONLY GOD, TRUE GOD... NOT Mohammad or any other Prophet of ISLAM. I WILL DIE SERVING MY LORD AND SAVIOR AND NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE THAT FROM ME AND WHILE I AM ON THIS EARTH I WILL WITNESS AS I PLEASE TO THOSE THAT WILL LISTEN AND GIVE TESTIMONY THE SAME. I WILL HAVE BIBLE STUDY IN MY HOME AND THE PRESIDENT, CONGRESS OR ANY OTHER REPRESENTATIVES WILL NOT STOP ME, PERIOD! IT IS MY HOPE ALL OF YOU FEEL THE SAME AS YOU WORSHIP, IT ONLY SADDENS ME TO KNOW HELL WILL BE FILLED WITH MANY. NO I AM NOT A RELIGIOUS FREAK AS SOME WOULD PUT IT, I AM JUST RELGIOUS BECAUSE I WILL NEVER DENY: DELCLARE UNTRUE; TO REFUSE TO ADMIT OR ACKNOWLEDGE MY GOD OR HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OR ANYTHING HE STANDS FOR, AND HE DOES NOT STAND FOR MURDER IN ANY CAPACITY OF THE WORD AMONG MANY OTHER MORAL AND ETHICAL ISSUES AT HAND.

FRANN

Parking
You do know this is a parking dispute, right?

Obama says "Freedom to Practice"
June 4, 2009

President Barack Obama's address to Muslims world wide, speaking at Cairo University in Cairo, Egypt, on Thursday. His remarks below are what was prepared for delivery. Source: Office of the White House press secretary.

This is part of his speech:
"Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion."

Amazing!

Aurorawatcher
Yes, it's nice to see religious conservatives standing together for their rights for once. I'm so tired of people saying you can't pray here, you can't put up religious material here, we have to take under God out of the pledge of allegiance, and so many things, it makes me sick. I've even had a guy look at me when I prayed quietly before my meal at a restaurant and say don't you know that's illegal in here?
Not only are they abridging my religious freedom, they're ignorant!

Donjindra misses the point
If this story had not made it onto Worldnet were everyone learned about it and began to pressure the gov't, the pastor would have been forced to get a permit for a constitutionally-protected activity. It does NOT matter that ultimately the county threw in the towel, as you say. What matters is that Christians had to pressure the gov't to do so in order to protect a constitutionally-permitted activity. Congress (i.e., gov't) shall make NO law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Christians (and indeed any other religion) shoudl not have to ask permission to peacefully assemble as a group. Yes, the group should be respectful of the neighbors with regards to parking and noise. But, no, they shouldn't have to get a permit. The Constitution says so. That the gov't demanded a permit (especially seeming to focus on the religious aspect of this meeting) is a violation of the Constitution and should be addressed. The gov't would not have thrown in the towel had Christians not protested. So, yes, harm and foul, stopped because people found out about this abuse of power.

Getting a permit means getting.....
permission. As such if one has to get a permit from a government agency then government can turn you down. No where in Consitittional law or caselaw is there a requirement to get permission to sit down and read the Bible. When they came up to question the preacher about the Bible study perhaps he should have really made it an issue and refuse to answer questions based on the 5th Amendment and tell the zoning weenie that he is trespassing.

The REAL problem is zoning laws
They are a direct assault on the right to own PRIVATE property.

A whole slew of soviet-style regulatory agencies exists, on all levels of govt, in America.

Vote Libertarian.

"CONGRESS shall make no law..."
"Congress"=the House of Representatives and the Senate.

The 1st amendment, along w/2-8, in the BOR's was intended to ONLY apply to the FEDERAL govt.

As distasteful as the actions described in the article were, there is nothing "unconstitutional" about them.

Good, Timely Article!
on't attend many Church Study Groups, etc, but my Wife does and she ABSOLUTELY has every right to do so.. I'm just about fed up with PC and all the other inuendoes that essentially limit my Freedom of Speech..
I'm curious about why my last three postings, today, talking about this matter, have never made it into print..Maybe I'm the new 'WOBBIE'? GEEZ, I hope not..CHEERS

County Codes
It's time for someone to check the county codes to see if such a raid was warranted, and if so,
then do whatever it takes to have that code changed. These are the kinds of things that liberals do without our knowledge. Change needs to begin at precinct levels. Check out American Majority for training in activism and candidating for offices. Join the tea party movement. DO SOMETHING!!! Don't just sit there and let that law stay on the books.

correction
That should read PRAYER group not prater group.

Bruce
No, you are the one that's missed the point. There is no such zoning law in my neck of the woods. As long as the person is not actively using the property as a business, hotel, multifamily dwelling, or other such uses, they cannot be cited. We had a professional band practicing here three -four times a week till 9:00 P.M. every week last year. When we complained about the noise we were told they were not violating the noise ordinance and there was nothing we could do. They were parking six and seven cars on the very narrow street every time, but parking was permitted till 2:00A.M. so that was a moot point as well. The prater group that still comes here every week parks five or six cars every week like clock work, and no problem even though a couple I know of complained. I still submit to you we don't live in the old Soviet Republic!!

Uh, Chuck...
did you get your butt kicked by Bruce Lee?

Why is anyone listening to a word you have to say?

Bruce
I admire your zeal over the implimentation of zoning laws, but please agree to be just as zealous to the groups of 15 or more people that gather weekly for bookclubs, poker, BBQ's, friday night parties... ect. ect.

All I ask is for you to be consistant in your criticism of assembled peoples. Dont give up man! We can still be so much more like China!

You heard it here folks
Zoning laws trump constitutional right to assembly.



why you are wrong on this issue
the issue isn't that they were holding prayer service / bible study in their home. the issue was having scheduled, twice daily, events in their home on a croweded street. If you want to park the street full once in a while, that's one thing. To park it full twice a day, seven days a week? Find some where else. Just because you call it a Christian activity does not give you an excuse to abuse your neighbors constantly.

eastlake joe
You not only belabored the point, you missed it. The issue is not "are we a recognized church or not?", the issue is zoning and land use. It does not matter one iota that you're not a recognized church if what you're doing in your house violates your town's zoning. This was true when Nixon was president, when Reagan was president, and it will be true under the next Republican president. It has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment, it has to do with zoning and land use.

I used to think it was all anti-liberal politics when posters on TH complained about how the public schools had left Americans incapable of reasoning and comprehension--now I know the complaints were from their own experience of their inability to reason and comprehend.

Jim,
Why should they have to? We don't live in the old soviet union. I have people right next door that have church meetings in their basement and I don't care in the least. I would rather have that than a band practicing next door and I have had that, too. If I was having these meetings and the police broke them up I would take it to court and make them look so bad it would not be funny.

Another thought
Raker
Location: OK
Reply # 35
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 7:41 AM EST Jim
I can't believe you equate church, bar, and car repair on the same level.
I guess you are so tuned in to getting a permit for every thing that "There must be a permit for that too".
Do you still raise your hand when you have to go?


>I am only using things that would bring in strangers from outside the neighborhood. Such as the difference between having a weekend garage sale against the idea of your next door neighbor having a weekly garage sale. In time you would find having all these strangers parking in front of your home irritating. If these people want to get together for Bible study ... what is wrong with using a room in their local church? Most churches that I have been affiliated with, would have no problem with such a gathering.<

we have a permit
Yes we have a permit to study the Bible. It's called the Second Amenment. The First Amendment protects freedon of religion. The Second Amendment potects our ability to deal with those who would violate our rights.

There are other ways
Bulldog74
Location: MA
Reply # 34
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 7:41 AM EST Jim at 7:03 am

Nice try -- and your argument would be valid had San Diego County decided to crack down on Super Bowl parties ("this is a neighborhood, not a sports bar!") or some guy changing a radiator hose in his driveway ("this is a neighborhood, not a Pep Boys!").

But no, they simply decided to play Gestapo/KGB, probably in response to a complaint from some pathetic get-a-life atheist who went apoplectic because he heard someone say "Amen."

No wonder California is down the tubes.


>I suppose that would be a valid point if they held superbowl parties 52 weeks out of the year but I am guessing they only occur 1 weekend out of the year.

Just as their is a difference between changing a radiator hose for yourself as opposed to having cars lined up and down a residential block to have their radiators worked on.

So would anyone had complained had these people rotated these Bible studies among all their homes in that it would have only been in this neighborhood once every other month?<

Bruce
I have enough family in town to have a family get together every Saturday or Sunday morning or both. If during that time I want to have a discussion on the bible and pray our heads off, as long as we aren't bothering the neighborhood, they can't legally touch us. Know the difference? We aren't a recognized church taking a tax exemption. A prayer group getting together in ones home is not a church. A few of the choir getting together to practice is not a church. Need I belabor the point any further?

Land Use Permit
Does that mean that the city of Pearland can't require Shadycrest Baptist Church to get a rezoning permit to expand our church building onto residential property that we purchased a few years ago?

It Won't Be Long...

Before the "progressives" will be coming to your churches and synagogues to monitor what your pastors are saying. If the government finds him preaching "hate" passages from the Scripture, he will be taken away in handcuffs.

Islamic mosques will remain exempt.

How much are we going to put up with?
What will be the straw that breaks the camel's back?
The purpose of socialist healthcare is to use public monies to pay for abortions. And to cut back on healthcare for the elderly. This will kill several birds with one stone. We will decrease the surplus population (Scrooge). The elderly are the biggest drag on the healthcare system if we can be rid of some of them we will save money and eliminate many that are collecting social security.

Will we stand by like sheep and watch as we did when the Supreme Court legalized abortion illegally. Or will we stand up and fight these pond scums.(pond scums are evolved atheistic/humanists that originated in primordial goo)

Dear God....
Oops, I probably shoudn't say that!
In these times when totalitarian governments are (seemingly) opening up by allowing freedoms previously unknown to their masses, the U.S. is tightening up the noose on religious and so-called fanatical right wing extremist or if you prefer as I do "Patriots for a cause". That cause being the Constitution and he Bill of Rights. Under the New World Order, life will be played on a level playing field unless of course you have the money and the political pull to sit in the stands and watch the game.
This is just the beginning of the re-write of the Documents that our Forefathers fought and died for. After all, it's only fair that everyone through-out the world share in the pains of freedom of religion and freedom of speech as long as Big Brother deems it permissible. Semper Fidelis

Got Your Permit
If this were a group of Islamic Jihadists studying the Quaran we wouldn't be having this discussion. There is no way that the authorities would want to upset the practitioners of the Religion of Peace.

Dan Jenkins Knew You, David
There's a great bit in Dan Jenkins' classic book "Dead Solid Perfect" about some guys who play golf at the fictional Goat Hills Golf Club in Texas. One guy can't hit his 3 iron, and after yet another bad shot, he drives along in his golf cart, puts the club head on the asphalt cart path and then pushes down on the shaft with his foot, putting pressure on the clubhead as he drives along. The sparks fly out from under the club as it is dragged along the asphalt, and he says to the club, voice dripping with sarcasm "How does that FEEL? How do you like it when I treat you bad, huh?"

That captures you quite well, David. You're making mistakes and blaming others, striving to do it sadistically, violently, with misused force. Must suck to be you.

David--More Errors
So, not content to just be wrong, you've decided to be crude, violent, and wrong.

And you claim to be affronted by people not thinking conservatives aren't very bright?

You claim I "attend a wussie church."

You say "Your church is the handmaiden of the state, and your "elders" are wimps and fairies. Come to think of it, to judge by the things you've posted, no surprise there. The girly stuff is the stuff for you."

People with masculinity issues often try to overcompensate with these displays of yours--it doesn't work--it's your masculinity comb-over.

Keeping up your error streak, you step in it again--"And a church the size of what you described sounds like a mega-church -- you know, one of those post-modernist amusement parks that offend no one and believe everything, and where the manly stuff is missing and the "message" lacks the vigor of even soft ice cream. You know, a compromising, effeminate church. Sewing circles a big thing over there with you "guys"?" I go to the old brick church in my neighborhood, built in 1926, Scout troop, etc.

"Go ahead and keep doing what you are doing: curtsying to those who rape you." What's with your excessive sexual obsessions?

"The more I learn about you, the more disgust I feel." Well, with you sex obsessed violent guys, it is all about feelings, right?

David - Wrong Again
This is a habit with you, isn't it?

Someone disagrees with you, shows you where you're wrong, and instead of just learning, you threaten violence and question their masculinity. Would that be something that would make people think conservatives aren't very bright? You're just lucky the posters here on TH don't knkow you and me personally--then they'd know you weren't very bright.

"Am I to infer, then, that lefty/libbie/statist/"progressives" ARE very bright?" You could if you weren't very bright.

"You wouldn't be thinking, say, of that huge-eared, stick-figure moon-unit with the teleprompter monkey-on-his-back that your dumba$$ed state produced via Chicago and stuck us with in the Oval Office, now would you?" Do you seriously wonder why people think conservatives aren't very bright?

"Just wondering. Because that lad is hardly the class valedictorian, if you catch my meaning." Columbia BA, Harvard Law, President of the Law Review, taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago--catch my meaning?

"Anyway, what did you mean, then, when you said before that you don't consider yourself better than anyone, regardless of political leanings, or however the fig you put it?" You couldn't catch my meaning? Not good at stick and ball sports?

"Now you're going to pull that condescending bit out of your G-string and give the lie to what you said before?" Not my style, but they say J Edgar Hoover looked great in pink chiffon.

Illinois Bruce, if what you say is true
… then you attend a wussie church.

Your church is the handmaiden of the state, and your "elders" are wimps and fairies. Come to think of it, to judge by the things you've posted, no surprise there. The girly stuff is the stuff for you.

Let's call your "church" what it is: A Three-Self Patriotic wannabe. You sissies do the Chinese Commies proud, I am sure.

And a church the size of what you described sounds like a mega-church -- you know, one of those post-modernist amusement parks that offend no one and believe everything, and where the manly stuff is missing and the "message" lacks the vigor of even soft ice cream. You know, a compromising, effeminate church. Sewing circles a big thing over there with you "guys"?

Go ahead and keep doing what you are doing: curtsying to those who rape you.

The more I learn about you, the more disgust I feel.

Illinois Bruce says:
"It's Easy to See Why People
...think conservatives aren't very bright."


-- I take that as a personal affront.

But before I beat your a$$ right here in front of everyone, let me ask YOU this, Bright Boy:

Am I to infer, then, that lefty/libbie/statist/"progressives" ARE very bright? That what you mean?

You wouldn't be thinking, say, of that huge-eared, stick-figure moon-unit with the teleprompter monkey-on-his-back that your dumba$$ed state produced via Chicago and stuck us with in the Oval Office, now would you?

Just wondering. Because that lad is hardly the class valedictorian, if you catch my meaning.

And neither are you. Or any other lefty I can think of. If you had any brains, you would be on the right. But you don't, and you're not.

Anyway, what did you mean, then, when you said before that you don't consider yourself better than anyone, regardless of political leanings, or however the fig you put it?

Now you're going to pull that condescending bit out of your G-string and give the lie to what you said before?

David, You Win the Naive Contest
If you think "it's none of the government's stench-ridden business" how many people are in your home at your invitation, then you are the born-in-Kenya king of naive. At our church congregation, large gatherings are held at the church (which has a permit) so that we don't bother anyone's neighbors with lots of cars. It's not that we're worried about the jack boot of the state--we're not interested in some psycho version of what's not happening--we do it to be polite to our neighbors.

But, you're not just naive, you take top "He's an Arab!" honors in the fear-monger derby when you think that zoning issues are just a lie we tell so we can persecute Christians.

The basis for zoning laws are reasonable and help to make sure that everyone can enjoy his or her property rights without having that enjoyment trampled by some yutz next door or down the block who decides to open a bodega in their house or to run a motorcycle repair shop out of their garage or to start a church on the down low in their house. No one can claim that zoning laws are never abused--I've said now 3 times that it may be that they were in this case--but all the rest of this is just trumped up fizz to justify a Fox News piece and to fill Chuck's obligatory column to excite the mouth breathers.

No, Karen,
I am really no more surprised than you are.

Only repelled.


You wrote:
"Dumb and dumber...that's where we're headed. But we'll be DIVERSE!!!"


-- Yes, indeed. Consider: Sonia Sodomizer is going to bring just that kind of "diversity" to the Supreme Court, I'm told. Isn't that a joy? We'll have our "first Puerto-Rican" on the Court! I can't wait!! Can you?

I've read a few of Judge Sodomizer's writings, and I have to say that she is vastly underwhelming. An intellectual force this South Bronx Jenny From the Block is decidedly NOT. But she IS "diverse." Yay!!

I'm reminded of the time Harry The Body Odor Reid made his jackass statement disparaging the intelligence of Justice Thomas.

Setting aside the irony of such a gaspingly stupid man as Reid saying such a thing, I'll be interested to see if this intellectual pygmy, Judge Sodomizer, is more Reid's speed.

Dumb and dumber. You got that right.

Illinois Bruce is naive
He writes:
"[T]he issue is how many people are at the house, how often, and how much impact do the meetings have on the neighborhood."


-- I say the issue is: It's none of the government's stench-ridden business how many people are in MY home at MY invitation.

That is an important message for the Obama Generation to get through its thick, "progressive" skull.


Bruce writes:
"If enough to require a permit, then it doesn't matter what the discussion is about."


-- It matters to me. It would matter to you, too, if you were not a statist Stepford Wife.


Bruce writes:
"It's not a religious or 1st Amendment issue, it's a zoning issue."


-- You are naive, son. That is exactly the kind of lie that tyrants in China and other repressive states employ to persecute and harass their Christian citizens.

And it is no surprise that we are dealing here with the People's Republic of California.


To DAVID S in NY
Please, David, say you aren't really surprised at widespread ignorance in our country. It's been so disastrously dumbed down in recent years. And now that soon everyone will be able to go to college, expect college courses to be incredibly dumbed down and diluted in coming years. Pretty soon a college degree will amount to what used to be a high school diploma. Dumb and dumber...that's where we're headed. But we'll be DIVERSE!!! Everywhere, and in all areas of expertise...except there will no longer be any expertise.

Waller, get your head outta that 'area'
Chandra Waller, that San Diego land-use bureaucrat, says Bible studies are "probably in a very gray area."

I say Chandra Waller's head is in a very gray area.

What a pathetic little dingbat.

How revolting for her to be a public official and at the same time so appallingly ignorant of basic First Amendment principles. I bet she's an expert on "climate change" and junk-science, tree-hugging "green" mandates. Idiot. Her type makes me barf.

I want to hear the low-IQ trolls on this site yelp yet again about how the government has no interest in interfering with "religious" people, how the real problem is our "intolerance," and how everything that is wrong with the world is our fault.

They are even stupider than Waller is.

Bruce of IL said...
**I'm not angry and spoiling for a fight--but I am annoyed at how much people see eager to take bland examples of everyday life and twist them into morality tales to demonize people they don't like.**

Pot. Kettle. Black.

SATANIC MEETINGS OKAY
Since this happened in California, I'm sure it would have been okay if the group meeting in their home was a Satanic cult, rather than a Bible study. Then, since Californians don't like to cause discomfort to any weirdos, they would never have insisted on a permit!! Case dismissed!

FAITH Beliefs
I don't know about you but if anyone came to my house and said I could not study my BIBLE , that person would have a hard time walking back to his car.

madsol
I'm not suggesting that zoning is the be all and end all of the issue. You admit your "$10 million permit" example is absurd--correctly so. If that were the case--which it's not, just to be clear for those who are eager to mislead--then I'm sure it would be declared an "undue burden" and ruled unconstitutional.

I'm not angry and spoiling for a fight--but I am annoyed at how much people see eager to take bland examples of everyday life and twist them into morality tales to demonize people they don't like. There's an entire Hate Industry devoted to this, people much angrier than I and paid handsomely to create fights--mostly based on false grounds ("He's an Arab!") for political or personal gain. It's not good for us as people, or for us as a country. I'm not surpised it happens--I am surprised how much it happens and how eager people are to make it happen.

Bruce
I don't think my examples are meaningless. You seemed to suggest that zoning is the be-all, end-all, and I pointed out that zoning must be content neutral. Seems pretty basic to me.

You sure seem angry and ready to fight. That's too bad. I know Illinois is quite a distance from San Diego, but maybe the Joneses have a spot for you in their Bible study. Just be careful where you park you car. Good day to you, sir.

madsol
You might be enjoyable to debate if you didn't dream up meaningless examples that shed no light on the issue, and if you didn't make up personality issues to ascribe to other posters because you feel inferior.

I'm not better than you, regardless of our political leanings. My argument is better than yours, because it's more factual and logical. If that makes you feel inferior and compells you to mistakenly claim that I feel superior to you, that's your mistake and your problem.

Sedonaman
You're making the mistake Chuck wants you to make--you're awfully obedient, but not very bright.

The issue isn't studying the Bible ("bad") vs. Book of the Month ("OK")--the issue is how many people are at the house, how often, and how much impact do the meetings have on the neighborhood. If very little, no problem. If enough to require a permit, then it doesn't matter what the discussion is about.

It's not a religious or 1st Amendment issue, it's a zoning issue.

Bruce
Moreover, you confuse the place of zoning regulations viz a vis the Constitution. You seem to think that zoning trumps everything. For instance, a municipality most certainly could not pass a zoning ordinance that required a house of worship to get a permit that cost $10 million. That's an absurd example, I realize, but zoning has to be consistent with the Constitution, not the other way around.

And you would be much more enjoyable to debate if you left the sniping "I'm better than you because I'm a liberal" comments out of your posts.

Bruce
The flaw in your argument is that the code enforcement officer did not question them about the cars but rather the subject matter of their meeting. That's where, IMHO, it runs afoul of the First Amendment. I agree with you that a municipality has the power to limit certain activities in certain places but those limitations must be content neutral, meaning they must apply equally across the board. The example that has been brought up over and over again about the Super Bowl is the perfect example. You can't allow people to congregate to watch the Super Bowl or for a birthday party without requiring a permit but then force people to get a permit to hold a Bible study.

One big caveat: My knowledge about this case does not extend beyond this article. If the code enforcement officer did not question the homeowners in the way it was presented in the article, then my thinking would most likely be different.

I suppose ...
... the county would have no problem if, instead of the Bible, they met to discuss the latest Book-of-the-Month Club novel.

David
I didn't say that zoning applies to every SuperBowl party or birthday party--you've been watching Fox News too much and think it's OK to just make stuff up about people you've been told not to like.

You're wrong that "The city can not dictate how many people you can have over to your house." They can, and they do--if your use of your property violates zoning restrictions or local laws. It may well be that the county made a mistake in this case, especially if no one is being inconvenienced or harmed or put at risk. The issue isn't "are they running a business (profit or non-profit)"--the issue is land use, and the impact of their actions on others and their enjoyment of their property. The fact that no money is changing hands wouldn't protect a church from zoning restrictions and needing a permit if their use of the property fit the county legal definition.

I thought you guys liked to claim "rule of law"--another dirty secret uncovered...

Louis, The Lord Won't Chastise You
He wouldn't bother with someone like you, a liar, and of no consequence.

Obama isn't a Muslim, despite how much you've been told not to like him.

He didn't lie about where he was born--you may wish he wasn't born in Hawaii, but those of us in the reality-based community aren't so troubled by the fact that he was.

Come to think of it, He may chastise you for being so far away from His teachings.

Bruce
It's easy to see why people think liberals aren't very bright.

I can follow your rationale on the zoning theory, but then apply it to every superbowl party, birthday party, etc! The city can not dictate how many people you can have over to your house. They are not running a business which is essentially what every church is, although they are non-profit.

It's Easy to See Why People
...think conservatives aren't very bright.

This story is easy to understand if you think for oh, maybe 2 or 3 seconds. And yes, there is a gray area about it.

Every church in every town in America has a permit hold public meetings--regular gatherings for church services--because there are zoning and land use issues--traffic, parking, safe occupancy limits to the building, etc--that have nothing to do with religion or the 1st Amendment.

By the same set of rules, most cities and towns have zoning rules that prevent people from runing businesses--or churches--out of their homes. Rightly or wrongly, the rules are intended to prevent harm to surrounding homes, prevent noise, traffic & parking issues, ensure the safety of people who might live nearby or patronize that business--or attend religious services in someone's home.

Now, to kill the story where Chuck (and every conservative who's more interested in disliking "liberals" than they are the truth) would like it to live--this has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment or freedom of religion. It's basically a zoning issue. THEY COULD HAVE THEIR BIBLE CLASS AS BEFORE IF THEY GOT A PERMIT--same as every church has to receive.

The gray area is how big does the group have to be, and how frequently does it have to meet--before the family would need a permit. Did the county go too far in asking the Jones to get a permit for weekly Bible study? It seems so, although we don't know if the neighbors complained or other possibly relevant facts.

What we can tell for certain is that the Founding Fathers would roll over in their graves to read a story like this from Chuck and think that a group of Americans would eagerly confuse a zoning misunderstanding with a violation of someone's 1st Amendment rights.

It's not so far-fetched as many may thin
Did any american think that 2 years ago we would have a muslim for a president? Did they think that he would attempt to divide the catholic church as he has done in Notre Dame, although he didn't need so much help when he had the catholics doing it themselves.
Did any body think they would elect a man who believes whole
heartedly in abortion as to KILL any babies born alive after an attempted abortion. Did they think that for the first time in our history, we elected a man who is running a giant corporation and
making the taxpayers pay for it. Did they think they would elect a man that lied about where he was born. Did they think they would elect a man who bows to a muslim leader, something that is forbidden in the Constitution and has been followed for the past 200 years by every president since. Well, I've news for you.
This is not something that has happened by chance. I believe that God is orchestrating what this man is doing and for good reason.
He has been offended long enough, and He will not be offended any
longer. Whom God loves, He chastises.
By the way, Janet Napolitano, I Am a right wing extremist, who loves this country with a passion. God Bless America, when He gets through with it.

Lilly...
and Duh 1 are masters of the straw man argument - put up a straw man that no one has ever heard of, knock it down and then think you're brilliant!

I'm just glad that I won't need
a permit that allows me NOT to study the bible.

Furthermore, I thank the founders of our constitution daily for their foresight in not making this a so-called 'christian' country. Count me as an Atheist, proud and patriotic to the core.

meetings
the only hope for this country is a civil war and sweepp the fascist left wing intelligensia from the world.

soonn the green battallions of the armed civilian miltia that the new god OBAMA has declared is neede

County code should be removed
The county had overstepped the constitution by creating this code. I would feel the same if the Joneses were Muslims, Jews, Christians or Atheists. I would like the county to press it's claims for the legality of the code , so that it can be tossed out by a court and removed from the books as an enforceable code.

Silly Willy said....
**You may not like Tiller's actions BUT THEY WERE LEGAL. He was not breaking any laws. **

Not quite true, Will. From investigative reporter, Jack Cashill:

"On Friday afternoon, March 27, it took a Wichita jury just 45 minutes to acquit Dr. George Tiller of 19 misdemeanor charges relating to his prolific late-term abortion business.

Tiller needed help. And for those paying attention, the real help came not in the courtroom but in the proverbial back room where, some three years earlier, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius engineered the deal that would keep Tiller's practice alive.

Sebelius persuaded Paul Morrison, the popular Republican district attorney of the state's most affluent county, to switch parties and run against sitting Attorney General Phill Kline.

Kline had proved deadly serious in bringing Tiller to justice, a move that had the potential to throw a major wrench in the Democratic fundraising apparatus.

With Tiller's massive financial support behind him, Morrison ousted Kline. Before leaving office, however, Kline had filed 30 counts against Tiller for performing illegal late-term abortions.

In other words, Tiller stood accused of taking the life of 15 fully viable unborn babies whose mothers were equally healthy, in utter disregard of Kansas law.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=93586

Stand Up and Fight
We all know that this situation is ridiculous and sadly syptomatic of a greater ill that is taking place in this culture. It is time to take our power back. We are the majority religion in the country and in the world yet we allow ourselves to be bullied and it has got to stop. Speak up and take it back!

What rights do we have?
First, let me say how outrageous this story is. It's sad to think that something like this can happen in America. Of course, I don't know all the details behind it. There is the slim chance that there was a legitimate reason for requiring a permit, but I haven't heard it yet. Kudos to the Joneses.

But as I read this article, an important consideration came to mind. The First Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Note that it says "Congress shall ..." It says nothing about state or local governments. For those strict originalists and those who want more state and local authority rather than federal authority, wouldn't a straightforward reading of the Constitution give state and local governments the power over these issues? I think that would be ludicrous, but that's a literal interpretation. Anyone who claims freedom of speech, press, religion, etc. is "interpreting" the Constitution. What say you? Any opinions on this?

Valiant for Truth said...
**That’s the part that is lost in the intelligent design debate: Design implies purpose. When design is suppressed, then purpose has no meaning and every man becomes a law unto himself.**

Simply brilliant. You said it in so few words but every word is spot on.

Thank you, I copied your whole post to share with others!



As I've said before
Christians must never lie down for this sort of thing.

I would not care what the law said, I would continue to have my Bible studies, and if the county (or any other government entity) wanted to haul me off to jail, so be it.

It would take many thousands of Christians being taken to jail for this same offense to get the message across that our government no longer respects the Constitution and is dictatorial in nature.

"Americans Constitutional right to park?
I can't believe the county would not infringe on the Jone's 1st amendment right to protect the communities constitutional right to parking, oh wait there isn't one! Well we need one after all freedom of speech, religion and the right to assemble peacefully is no where near as important as parking. Imagine the how dangerous it will be if a right to parking isn't added to the constitution, the government will take control of everything. Parking? What a stupid argument.

Shameful
If you have a problem with cars then deal with the cars.

Having the government moving in saying you need to cough up money to get a permit or cease having a Bible study is impermissible. Freedom of religion can not be abridged by the imposition of taxes, tariffs, and duties. Our Founders clearly had this in mind as similar conduct in the British Empire at the time was at the heart of the quest for religious freedom in the America. They also clearly proclaimed that, "the power to tax is the power to destroy."

This government overreaching
began, in part, because local governments have required permits for people to assemble. Do you want to have a peaceful rally? You must get a permit. Do you want to march on city hall? You must get a permit.

Governments give all sorts of lame reasons for why they require permits. Traffic control, crowd control etc., but it all boils down to one thing. The government wants to control any sort of protest that people might wage. If the government says “permit denied” then people have had their right to assemble “abridged” and that is unconstitutional.

Because so many people have simply accepted the fact that they must go hat-in-hand to government and obtain a permit for something that is a Constitutional right, this has emboldened government to carry this notion to its next logical extreme.

This is what always inevitably happens whenever the people cede any ground at all involving their Constitutional rights.

To "Just a thinker"
So the Joneses "not respecting others property" justified the county officials barrading their religious rights?? Are you kidding? Sounds like a parent, "I wouldn't have slapped your face if you were a good boy." The Jones might not have respected others "automobilie space," but the county mowed their First Amendment rights as Norris concluded. It's not "either or" but "both and."

vizier

you straightened Dean out. Congratulations!!!

Dean needs to realize that anyone who supports keeping abortion legal are accomplices in the murders of the innocent pre-born babies.

Yepper, if Dean supports keeping abortion legal than he is an accomplice in the murders of all children aborted since he reached the age of 18, at which point he became a controlling member of society.

Dean may not like it, but if he wants to know how many murders he has aided he can multiply the number of years he has been 18 and over by about 1.5 million innocent pre-born children who are murdered by abortionists each year.

Dean can deny culpability for these murders, but when you act to keep evil occurring or when you fail to act to prevent evil from occurring you have earned a share in the evil and its consequences.

What Is The Issue
What is the issue, what is at stake. The issue is our individual freedoms. What is at stake is how much individual freedom we want, and how much individual freedom we will actually get.

Dean
I never advocated going after anyone. You said that, not me. But yes the women who brought their children to the slaughter are just as responsible as he is.
And if you are one of those who support "reproductive rights", then you, too, are guilty, and that, monsieur, is not rhetoric, it's the truth.
Why do you even bother to post on Townhall? Do you just enjoy insulting people? Go to the Daily Kos, where you belong. Better yet...why don't you and Lilly get a room and bore each other to death?

The part of the story missing here:
This is something that got out of control because the the Jones' didn't respect neighbors property. The 15 cars parked all over the place. I would be unhappy too if this were my neighbor, whether they were having Monday night football, Tupperware, or whatever.

I think the Jones' should have been respectful of other peoples property and maybe had their participants carpool or park in a parking lot nearby and walk in.

This could have been avoided by the Jones', but maybe this is what they wanted ! That I don't know for sure, but it is suspicious to me.

Justin
"Religious supporters didn't want to pay taxes like other organizations " What other charitable organizations pay taxes? I'm just curious, because I don't know of any.

Norris is Chicken Little
As usual, making a mountain out of a molehill.

Are we really surprised when a public official oversteps his bounds? It happens every day. But let some Christian somewhere get is toe stepped on and suddenly there are the typical alarmist cries of "discrimination" -- but it's really no more than special interest politics in the guise of outrage. Come on, people. No harm done. The city threw in the towel. They would have lost in court anyway and everyone knows it. However, if that gathering had been Wiccan, or worse, Dionysian swingers, not a peep would have been heard from Norris.

Loss of purpose not without consequences

Could it be any clearer that government may not prohibit "the free exercise thereof"? –Chuck Norris


The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are only clear in the context of their origin. The consensus from Biblical Christianity that rights are derived from the commands of the sovereign God and Creator of all things has been lost to a godless and vain philosophy that all that exists is self created and self sustained without design and therefore without purpose.

That’s the part that is lost in the intelligent design debate: Design implies purpose. When design is suppressed, then purpose has no meaning and every man becomes a law unto himself.

What is the purpose of man? The old catechism says it best: The chief end of man is to love God and to enjoy Him forever. He has given us the Law and the Gospel that we might find our purpose.

When men suppress this truth and give up the Christian world view, then rights also lose their meaning. No longer are they derived from the self-revealed God giving them a reference to the absolute, but they become arbitrary as derived from the autonomous reason of man.

The rule of law is meaningless to the culture of lawlessness, personified in Obamanomics.

permit for bible study
thanks to chuck norris & his wife for standing up for our rights . the devil is working overtime & we all need to help out with our prayers for the ones who think you need a permit to hold a bible study in our homes.

lilly
As a teacher, I would fail both students, and tell the parents exactly why. If they don't like my reasoning, then they can go to the administration, and be told the same thing.

California is nuts.
Can we secede from California?

To Dean
Count up how many doctors have unplugged a hospital respirator with the intention that the patient will soon die, off life support. Do you consider those doctors to be murderers?

And BTW what YOU consider is irrelevant. Your opinion does not constitute the law. Even Bill O'Reilly said last night that Dr Tiller's actions were within Kansas law. People who interrupt the practice of legal actions because they personally disagree with those actions are called "terrorists".

Regularity of Occurrence
In my experience neighbors do not complain about a lot of extra cars parked unless it's a regular occurrence. People are nice if you have everyone at your house after a funeral and there are a lot extra cars on the street. Or on the day of your daughter's wedding. They are less nice if this happens every Wednesday night. That is when the municipality's legal definiton of what constitutes a church comes into play. Remember that when an actual church is going to be constructed (or any other building to which large numbers of people with cars will be attracted) the issue of parking and traffic flow ALWAYS comes up and usually causes trouble and bad feeling.

It is typical of the Religious Right to distort everything into a "Christians Are Persecuted" scenario. Another example: 12th grade history teacher assigns research paper "Choose any one of the 13 original colonies and write a 10-page footnoted paper showing how the economy of that colony contributed to the success of the Revolutionary War". That's a lot of work and some kids find a way out of doing it. The kid from a liberal home will present instead a short story or a sequence of poems and if you say "that isn't acceptable because it wasn't the assignment" the liberal parents will come roaring in charging that you are discouraging creativity. But the Christian Right kid will hand in a paper on the meaning of Jesus in her life, and if you don't accept that the parents (and probably their minister) will come in charging that you won't allow the student to observe her religion.

Bulldog74
True that, Bulldog.

When I'm off work I'm going to try to track down that ordinance. I've got to go be twice as productive now to make up for spending too much time on the intertoobz.

Dean
I suppose it's asking too much, but all of this could be avoided if people would show a little consideration beforehand and ask themselves "now is this going to bug the neighbors?"

In the past, when I've known I have a bunch of people coming over, I usually go up the street to let people know, ask them if there's going to be any problem if a car parks in front of their house, and let them know that we plan on being done by a certain time.

In almost all cases, this courtesy has gone a long way. Of course, I'm sure there will always be somebody who's going to complain no matter what.

So much for the Constitution
"Right of the people to peacably assemble" Yep... that means nothing to radical liberals.

They aren't going to stop until they destroy what's left of the US Constitution together with their Looter in Chief, plundering and destroying wealth like some form of perversed modern day Robin Hood.

Justin
"If you want a free exercise, stop asking for government to do ANYTHING special for religious organizations, including special tax protections."

Fine with me, after all "render to Caesar what is Caesar's."

But fair's fair -- if we take away deductions/exemptions for charitable religious groups, then we should also take them away from colleges & universities, hospitals, United Way, American Cancer Society, etc.

Flat tax for everybody.

Bible study
What scares me a lot is that no one in the county offices had the courage to stand up and say "NO ABSOLUTELY NO" to this infringement on our constitutional right to free speech, right of peaceable assembly and freedom of religion.
We are our own worst enemy....

Andrew and Bulldog74
I think I'm on board with you on this...according to the article it was a 'county code enforcement officer' who asked the problematic questions, which implies the answers were relevant to a county ordinance, presumably one requiring a permit to operate a church. I don't agree with such requirements personally, but the same kind of thing is required of a lot of activities in residential areas. I would be more disturbed if I found the ordinance prohibited mere Bible studies or quiet prayer gatherings.

Still, as another poster has pointed out, if so many of us didn't use government as a proxy to control other people's activities, we wouldn't be at this point today. It's past time to re-evaluate these thousands of local ordinances in light of the Constitution, common sense, and whether they benefit one special interest at the expense of others.

Dean
I agree that if they were being too loud they should be quieted. But that is not the assertion that was made. There was not a noise complaint but a complaint about too many cars in the street. Also, a police officer, when investigating a noise complaint, generally states, "We've gotten some complaints of loud noises coming from this residence." Then they may ask what is going on in the residence (not specific things that are being said but they type of event, party, prayer group, etc.) and they will ask the person to keep it down and will either issue a citation or not. The police have been to my house for a noise complaint when I was in college and they did not try to confirm anything except that there was noise and that it was loud.

Not exactly new
Our government has actively violated the first since the IRS showed up. Do you know the official definition the Federal Government provides of an actual religion? It's if they're given tax exemption. Yup, the Feds have already made law respecting the establishment of religion by requiring them to get vetted through our taxing authority.

Just one of those wonderful unintended consequences. Religious supporters didn't want to pay taxes like other organizations and couldn't stand being just another not-for-profit and asked for special codes. We've allowed government to decide what is a religion or not, now they can move into this stuff.

If you want a free exercise, stop asking for government to do ANYTHING special for religious organizations, including special tax protections.

Ordinance
Does anyone have the relevant text of the ordinance? Is it the county's position that you have to have a permit to operate a church, or do they actually prohibit having any religous meetings at all?

Dean
Good points all (I got a chuckle out of your Pentecostal anecdote).

If this whole story is REALLY about people being inconsiderate jerks, blocking driveways, denting someone's car, violating noise ordinances, etc., then I have no sympathy for them whether they're Christians, sports fans or whatever. (I've been a Christian for many years now, and believe me, I have no illusions about my fellow believers--some of us CAN be jerks).

The thing that makes me suspicious is the County official's alleged line of questioning. If he was actually asking something like "who parked this car here," then this whole thing is a non-story. But if it unfolded the way the column says it did, then it's very disturbing.

Lilly
I also have looked at this because I am always skeptical when people put on their victim hat. If the enforcement officer had merely said that the family needed a permit to park that many cars on the street, then it would never have become the big deal that it is now. As soon as the officer questioned whether they were praying or saying "praise the Lord," it was no longer just about a traffic violation. What do the questions about their religious practices have to do with too many cars on the street? Additionally, they live in a cul-de-sac. They aren't exactly blocking an expressway or major intersection. Also, there is no mention of the family having a homeowners agreement. Therefore, your covenant arguement is contrived and irrelevant. And even if there was a homeowners association, if it has unconstitutional provisions it is null and void. Contracts do not supercede Constitutional rights. It is the opposite. I agree with another poster who said that a police officer should have been called and citations issued. Then the private parties and insurance companies and courts could have handled the fender bender.

San Deago
The officer most certainly showed the world and his bosses that he is an atheaist. He deffiantly exceeded his authority.

Should be removed from his position, mayby nobomas enforcer?

Do you pray?
Say 'praise the lord', etc.

I took this as confirming the neighbor's complaint about what he or she was hearing from the 'bible meeting', in other words, confirmation that they were being so loud everyone could hear what they were saying. There's a difference between saying 'amen' and shouting 'AMEN!'. Grownups should know to use their indoor voices in someone's home.

In other words, these people were not having bible studies, but something more like a full-blown church service or prayer meeting. I don't agree with ordinances that categorically disallow homes to be used for religous meetings or small businesses, in my mind they should just have been required to keep it down and find some alternative parking, but that doesn't mean they weren't in violation of the county ordinance, which should be enforced even-handedly or changed.

Bible study in San Deago
If the complaint was only from neighbers about the amount of cars taking up other homeowners spaces, the City of San Diago should immediatly fire the officer for making the City of San Deago the laughing stock of America.

Bad judgement call from his supperiors.

Perhaps the muslims are on the force in San Diago?

Joel-De Oppresso
I apologize. I read your quoting of another post as your post. Thanks for being a patriot!

lilly
I think that everyone can agree that there are people that get carried away and don't use common sense when they exercise their rights, as this person was clearly over the top.

One can encounter street preachers in almost every city and while they are often loud, I have no problem with them. Further, I live about a mile from a Mormon church, so I get young "missionaries" doing their work of spreading their religion knocking on my door at least once per month. It is a minor annoyance, but they are always well dressed, polite, respectful and non-confrontational and since I love talking to young people and because they will be leading our country one day, I always talk with them.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber and lilly
You're missing the point! What should have just been registered as a parking complaint in a residential area was turned into a religious crusade BY THE COUNTY! Read the quotes said by county officials in Norris' post. This is not right-wing fantasy!

Bulldog74
"The question to ask is would the county have reacted similarly if one of the residents was having 15 friends over every weekend to watch the Chargers or Padres...I have a feeling the answer would be no."

I hope you're wrong about that...that if one of the hypothetical fans dented someone's car and a complaint was filed about the 15 cars (maybe more people than that)and alleged that the cheering and booing could be heard all over the neighborhood, that the host would be told to knock it off by the authorities, as at that point they are disturbing the peace of the neighborhood and arguably creating a traffic hazard. I have a feeling the answer would be yes. I hope I'm right about that, because if I'm wrong, for some reason the local authorities want to clamp down on bible study meetings, which would be weird as well as wrong. I'm an atheist and have no problem with my neighbors having bible studies, provided they don't turn into loud church services and don't block my driveway. No skin off my nose.

I was raised Pentecostal, and a Pentecostal church with 15 members is likely to have a three-piece band and a soloist with everyone else clapping, so I don't underestimate the noise-making ability of small groups. :)

Neighbors Complained About Parking
"The complaint was made by a neighbor whose car was dented by one of the visiting cars. Parking for 15 extra cars once a week was seen as a problem."

Traffic congestion is a legitimate complaint, but it doesn't trump the Constitution. The proper means of solving any parking problems that the Joneses' meetings created would have been to deal with those problems directly -- say, by asking the drivers to park in certain places, asking the Joneses to suggest carpooling, having policemen write tickets for attendees who block driveways, and so on. The proper means of dealing with that lone fender-bender would have been not to summon a code-enforcement goon, but to have a uniformed peace officer cite the driver at fault, then let the parties, their insurance companies, their attorneys, and the courts sort everything out as if the incident had occurred anywhere else.

The reason that the extra cars were in that neighborhood is nobody's bloody business. But when I reread the column, I get the clear impression that it was precisely, perhaps exclusively, what the investigating official was interested in. "Do you pray?" has nothing in the world to do with parking or scratched paint and quite a bit to do with targeting people because of their beliefs.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber


Joel-De Oppresso Liber
Location: NV
Reply # 27
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 6:00 AM EST First Amendment
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

This Amendment covers 2 issues: Religion, and Opposition to the Government. The Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses serve as bookends to ensure that there cannot be a “Church of The United States of America”, with the President as High Priest; and to ensure that the govt cannot interfere with ANY expression of Faith, private or PUBLIC.

The Rights of Speech, Press, Assembly, and Petition all combine to guarantee the Citizen’s ability to criticize the govt. There is NO Right to interfere with the activities of any Citizen or Private institution, or to slander a Citizen.

Separating Speech or Press out of the group is done by the ungodly to claim Rights that do not exist. There is no God-given, Constitutionally guaranteed right to obscenity. No one can grant himself Rights.

~~~

Joel,

Dang your hide. You can be a fun spoiler at times.

I knew that "Right to Assembly" was in the "Bill of Rights".

I purposely put the question mark there, in hopes Aurora would look it up to prove me wrong.

I also know the reasons it was put there.



lilly:
Your anecdotes mean nothing here. You are using one right, the nearly unlimited right to contract, to diminish other rights, e.g., property, assembly. Respect for all human rights is important, and the preservation of those rights is essential to peaceful coexistence.

Got my permit
It's called the 1st Amendment.Enough said.

Vizier
"Tiller was directly, personally, responsible for killing 60,000 people. I'd say that makes him worse than Hitler. Hitler sent others to kill. And no one cried when Hitler died."

Unless you also advocate going after the tens of thousands of women who hired him to do it, I have to consider this mere rhetoric.


Waco Attack
When the Koresh group was attacked at Waco, it was pointed out that this was a religious group.

The government replied that they did not have the right to do anything to a religious group ... but they did have the right to come down hard on "cults". And they also had the right to decide what was a religion and what was a cult.

I guess they have now decided that Christianity is a cult.

From my blog
Based on Tina Turner's version of Proud Mary

Proud Barry
A Paddy Whack©

Y' know, every now and again
We'd like to hear some hard facts from Obama
Lies are easy
But truth's one thing we will never ever hear from him
Lies are easy
He'll always lie because the truth is tough
So I'm gonna take the beginning of this song
And prove it easy
Then I'm gonna end it tough
This is the way I do Proud Barry.

And we're rolling, rolling, rolling down the river
Listen to the story

I lost a good job in the city
Watching Barry's plan every night and day
And I never saw the Socialism creeping
When Obama bailed out the banks and G.M.

Big Deals keep emerging
Proud Barry keeps on splurging
And we're rolling, rolling, rolling down the river.

Seems Obama hates Resistance
Pumped out his disdain for the Parties for TEA
But he'll never see we aren't so Itty-bitty
Til we march again with a new head of steam!

Big Deals keep emerging
Proud Barry keeps on splurging
And we're rolling, rolling, rolling down the river.

If you take his 'stand and deliver'
I bet you're gonna find that's no way to live
Barry's in a hurry to strip you of your money
But when we're in the tank tell me who's left to give?

Big Deals Keep Emerging
Proud Barry Keeps on Splurging
And we're rolling, rolling, rolling down the river.

And we're rolling, rolling, rolling down the river
and he's polling, tolling, trolling for more givers....

lilly
Since you've researched this more throughly than I have, was the San Diego community in question a "protected neighborhood" like you would find in a condo complex or, for example, in the historic Beacon Hill area here in Boston?

If it is, and the people agreed to "no large gatherings" when they moved in, then yes they should be bound by that. But I think this wasn't the case, or the whole episode would not have gone farther than the homeowners' association.

The question to ask is would the county have reacted similarly if one of the residents was having 15 friends over every weekend to watch the Chargers or Padres...I have a feeling the answer would be no.

Lilly
lilly "I have lived in both suburban communities with protective covenants and homeowners' associations and in city high-rise condo buildings with condo boards of directors, for over 40 years and am very, very familiar with these situations. A covenant will say you can't hang out laundry but must use a dryer; everybody signs this agreement when they move in; inevitably somebody insists he has the right to hang out laundry. There is always somebody who wants to keep an exotic pet or park a trailer in front of his house or paint his front door red when all the others are not-red. Or conduct large religious meetings on a regular basis; we had one of those in an apartment building I lived in and it was stopped. Large meetings require large parking. Sometimes religious meetings include loud singing. Communities have rights as well as individuals. The solution is simple: don't move into a protected community. Don't be there in the first place, and don't sign paper agreeing to do what you don't intend to do."

__________________________________________________________________
another brain dead heard from no one person or group may make a law or regulation that violates the constitution period.

And Yet Another
Once in a city apartment high-rise building the condo above us had been rented out to a group of Korean music students at a nearby college who practiced all the time on various instruments, all of which we could clearly hear. They must have had a Sunday morning gig at some church because every Sunday we were awakened at 7 AM by a rousing rendition of "What A Friend We Have in Jesus". The building had a rule that you couldn't do noisy things before 9 AM (eg play loud music, run a vacuum cleaner etc). We did not complain to building management; actually we thought the situation was funny and we knew the students would soon be on their way---but if we had complained, presumably they could have protested that we were interfering with their freedom of religion as they were singing hymns of praise.

Jim from CO
read the constitution dumby certain laws are not allowed next they will tell us we can't have guns in our homes to protect property values. How stupid are you!

Another Example
I once lived in a city condo building where one resident not only held regular large noisy religious meetings in his apartment but did street preaching in front of the restaurant right across the street from our building. He had amazing amplifiers so that his sermons, which were lengthy, drowned out conversation at the restaurant and kept awake residents of the building who worked nights and were trying to sleep. He had a permit for the street preaching so the restaurant diners and the tired nurses had to endure his loud voice by the hour. His defense was "religious freedom".

Call out the Bunko Squad!
When our homes may not be used for any kind of peaceable assembly we are no longer the USA.

Forget Poker night, forget Bunko night, forget Bridge, Mah Jong, Stitch & Bi#ch, Bible Study, book clubs, Tea Party Organizers and all other activities that folks regularly assemble together to enjoy.

I know a family that always met with friends to watch Survivor together! For Shame! Where's the permit???

This is frightening and anyone who thinks otherwise is either living in a dream world or are part of the problem.

What is it about Guaranteed Rights Ennumerated in the Constitution that is a grey area?

Short of assembling to plot the assassination of government officials or other illegal activities, people have the right to conduct whatever social gathering they want in their homes.

Why doesn't this fall under unreasonable search and seizure? Why was it a complaint in the first place other than to harass Christians?

Where are the right to privacy groups now?

Neighbors Complained About Parking
I tried something apparently unheard of on townhall, I looked for details by googling the words "permit required bible study home". The complaint was made by a neighbor whose car was dented by one of the visiting cars. Parking for 15 extra cars once a week was seen as a problem. The issue was turned into an anti-religion event by the usual victimhood-hungry gang.

Parallel a few years ago: a couple of people knelt to pray in the middle of a busy intersection and refused to move when they impeded rush-hour traffic. Their expected arrest was carefully photographed and recorded by right-wing media that had accompanied them for that purpose. The event was then advertised as "Arrested for praying!".

I have lived in both suburban communities with protective covenants and homeowners' associations and in city high-rise condo buildings with condo boards of directors, for over 40 years and am very, very familiar with these situations. A covenant will say you can't hang out laundry but must use a dryer; everybody signs this agreement when they move in; inevitably somebody insists he has the right to hang out laundry. There is always somebody who wants to keep an exotic pet or park a trailer in front of his house or paint his front door red when all the others are not-red. Or conduct large religious meetings on a regular basis; we had one of those in an apartment building I lived in and it was stopped. Large meetings require large parking. Sometimes religious meetings include loud singing. Communities have rights as well as individuals. The solution is simple: don't move into a protected community. Don't be there in the first place, and don't sign paper agreeing to do what you don't intend to do.

Jim from CO
YOU are missing the point completely. It does not matter WHAT the SD County law is, it cannot be used to stop bible studies. PERIOD> The 1st amendment to the constitution GUARANTEES "FREE EXERCISE" of religion. That is a clear, black and white statement, and no gov't entity can violate it. PERIOD.

If God Is not real........
Then there is no Good or Evil on this planet....they are just opinion. Why would people even remotely live their lives being "good", if God does not exsist?


ADDED materials by Chuck at WND
Repeated for emphasis:

Chuck adds even MORE MATERIAL in his EXCLUSIVE version of same article at World Net Daily http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=99738

“We’ve butchered and bastardized the First Amendment until it doesn’t resemble what our Founders intended. Even when Thomas Jefferson penned that legendary commentary on “a wall of separation between Church and State,” in his letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802), he was only concerned with prohibiting the domination and legislation of religious sectarianism in government, as it was back in England and even in some early colonies like Virginia. However, he was not trying to rid government or civic settings of religious influence and practice. (That’s a timely reminder, especially when so many graduation ceremonies across the land are http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=349183 even now being banned from incorporating religious discussion and invocations by student participants.)

“In 1789, during the same time when the First Amendment was written, then President George Washington signed into law the Northwest Ordinance, which states, ‘Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.’

“From Miss California Carrie Prejean (who also lives in San Diego) and her fight for freedom of speech, to this pastor and his wife and their fight for free exercise of religion, America’s First Amendment rights are progressively being trampled and even flushed down the cultural toilet. Will California really lead the way in obliterating such basic human rights?”

You reap as you sow.
Religious freedom is not the issue. Property rights is the issue. Why are so many unable to see that a government that can prevent someone from taking in laundry at their residence can also prevent someone from having a pray meeting in their residence?

Democracy is a threat to peaceful coexistence. You may have the votes today to intimidate the opponents of religious freedom, but things change.

I want complete religious freedom in this country. To have religious freedom I must give up my inclination to control the lives and property of others. If I vote to deprive another of his alcohol, or I vote to regulate his business, or I use the power of government to compromise his property rights, I open the door for him to vote to take my bible, or restrict my religious practices.

Liberals are not necessarily the enemy of conservatives, and conservatives are not necessarily the enemy of liberals. The enemy here is the misuse of the power of government. If one side misuses the power of the state, the other side must retaliate by misusing the power of the state to correct the injustice. The push and push back cycle never ends. That is where we are today. That is why both sides seem so angry with the other side.

If you want religious freedom, government must be restrained. If you want personal freedom, government must be restrained. Accomplishing this requires ending our experiment with democracy, and restoring our republic.

Jack
It is not "playing the victim" to stand up for one's constitutional rights. Our constitution says that there are to be NO LAWS prohibiting the our exercise of our religious beliefs. If a governmental organization, at any level, tries to use zoning laws or any other laws to that end their actions are ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

We had better get a backbone
Bravo Chuck, Great article.
All I can add is we had better get a backbone and being afraid of offending someone. We need to start calling sin sin, wrong wrong and stand up for what is right in this country! If not, we have no one to blame for what a mess it has becoming.

Jack
"Honestly, if people needed a permit to study the Quran, would you be writing about it?"

You're missing a salient point: in the United States in 2009, you _don't_ need a permit to study the Quran. On the contrary, in some parts of this country you have to fight various government authorities to keep the Quran out of public-school curricula, to withhold public subsidies from madrassas, to stop the sprawl of sharia, or just to prevent muezzins from blasting you out of your chair. It seems unlikely that San Diego would've had an official problem with Quranic studies at the same address. Had the city tried to interfere with the free exercise of Islam, a national flap would've resulted almost immediately.

"Regardless of this stupid ordinance, Christians still have more power, influence, and prestige than any other religion in this country. That doesn't mean they're right, but it does mean they have far fewer excuses to play the victim. So when they do it's all the more egregious."

Well, we agree that it's a stupid ordinance. But you seem to say that only the downtrodden should be allowed to seek relief from stupid ordinances. I see nothing in the Constitution to support this double standard.

Further, you seem willing to apportion the right to redress of grievances on the basis of group membership. Yes, Christians as a whole are more numerous, more powerful, and more influential in this country than are Hindus, Baha'is, or even Muslims. But in this case, _these_Christians clearly don't benefit much from belonging to that privileged class. In fact, they may have run afoul of the law precisely because they're Christian. I maintain that it's both legally permissible and socially acceptable for individuals to resist victimization when they actually _are_ victims.

Careful, sir. That slope is covered in Teflon.

AliveInHim
I realize there are conservative and liberal churches in most denominations. I was talking about that one particular church.
But thank you for the information. I had never heard of the Wisconsin Lutheran Church--only the Missouri Synod and I thought all Lutherans were under this organization and ranged from liberal to conseervative.

Raker
The "permit" mentality is actually nothing new in California...when I was growing up out there in the 1960s, I decided when I was about 8 or 9 years old that it would be really cool to open up a lemonade stand. My folks had to tell me no because to do so would have required a permit from the city health department.

In any sensible state, everyone would agree that if you spend a dime on a cup of lemonade made by a kid who was probably catching lizards an hour before, you do so at your own risk.

Jim
I can't believe you equate church, bar, and car repair on the same level.
I guess you are so tuned in to getting a permit for every thing that "There must be a permit for that too".
Do you still raise your hand when you have to go?

Jim at 7:03 am
"And as usual, you miss the point of the law, it is not to stop Bible study but to instead protect residential neighborhoods from being turned into commercial districts. Would you not complain if these same people turned their home into a bar every Sat. nite with cars parked in front of your house? It is called a residential neighborhood for a reason ... "

Nice try -- and your argument would be valid had San Diego County decided to crack down on Super Bowl parties ("this is a neighborhood, not a sports bar!") or some guy changing a radiator hose in his driveway ("this is a neighborhood, not a Pep Boys!").

But no, they simply decided to play Gestapo/KGB, probably in response to a complaint from some pathetic get-a-life atheist who went apoplectic because he heard someone say "Amen."

No wonder California is down the tubes.

Pistol
I haven't seen you around for a while. Welcome back.

The Implications
I understand your reasoning, Chuck. The constitution is very clear. The government may not in any way, shape, or form prohibit the free exercise of religion. This story is laughable, but I stop and wonder if people would make a big deal about it if it wasn't the bible. Honestly, if people needed a permit to study the Quran, would you be writing about it? Or what about the Maharbarta? Or the Satanic Bible (it is a real book)?

As an atheist, I have respect for all religions, but I don't have as much respect for those religions that play the victims. Regardless of this stupid ordinance, Christians still have more power, influence, and prestige than any other religion in this country. That doesn't mean they're right, but it does mean they have far fewer excuses to play the victim. So when they do it's all the more egregious.

Old news, but still bad news
To cite just one item from this country, the Rev. Danny Marrow held Bible-study meetings in his house until the City of Virginia Beach shut them down and arrested him. That was back in 1978, as I recall. The official rationalization in that case, a zoning ordinance, was innovative at the time. But suppression of disfavored religious groups, or of religion in general, had already been around for ages.

Vizier writes
Reformation Lutheran Church must be at best a social club and at worst Propaganists for Lord Obama.

Well, there are Lutherans, and then there are the Lutheran-lites. But since there are over 50 different Lutheran bodies, people can't be blamed for simply lumping all together.

My own Synod, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, is what might be called a fundamentalist Lutheran body. We accept the inerrancy of Scripture, and are pro-life at every level. The Wisconsin Synod is also conservative.

The church that Tiller belonged to is likely part of the liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, or ELCA. There you will find female pastors, 'pro-abortion' sympathizers, and all sorts of social justice types.

Goverment control of our lives.
Our Constitution is what has allowed this Nation to become the most free and productive country in the world. No nation has ever achieved the level of standard of living and prosperity as the USA has. Our poor live better than 80% of the world population. Now government officials hired or appointed by our elected leaders are deciding what the Constitution says. A gathering of 15 people in a house to read the bible is not a church, bar or repair shop.

To Joel-De Oppresso Liber. With your reasoning you better not have a birthday party for your children, nor celebrate Cinco de mayo with 15 friends as you will have to get a permit or license. Do you have your extended family over to you house on a regular basis? And do you say a prayer or in someway bless the gifts given to your family? If so get a license.

Not to Worry
Don't worry - many freedom of speech and freedom of assembly issues remain untouched, such as:

If you are a member of the Dr. Tiller-The-Baby-Killer Praise & Adoration Group you will be able to worship this mass baby-murderer without government interference.

Advocates of the Perez Hilton "What's A Felcher Club?" will be unmolested by authorities.

ACORN groups plotting the destruction of the country will continue as always, without any government interference in their activities.

Of course, illegal aliens will not be confronted, questioned, identified, detained or deported. They can continue to congregate 15-20 in a house while waiting an opportunity to obtain free health care at the local hospital.

La Razza, the Bill Ayers Bomb America League and the Jeremiah Wright Anti-Whitey Screed Association are all off-limits to government officials.

However, you clinging to your Bibles and guns folks, well, unfortunately, you're fair game!

As a side note, oBUMa is doubling the tax on aspirin - it is white and it works!

There are reasons for this law
Joel-De Oppresso Liber
Location: NV
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 6:03 AM EST Boycott San Diego
I used to vacation in San Diego as it is a beautiful place, with lots of fun, touristy attractions. Also, it was the last bastion of conservatism in CA. I will NEVER vacation there again. Any govt that thinks as they do will not get a dime from me other than by force.

>And as usual, you miss the point of the law, it is not to stop Bible study but to instead protect residential neighborhoods from being turned into commercial districts. Would you not complain if these same people turned their home into a bar every Sat. nite with cars parked in front of your house? It is called a residential neighborhood for a reason ... you can not just open a church, bar or car repair shop without a proper permit. Unless you want to see your property values go to hell.<

Boycott
I'm with Joel-de, boycott in any and every way the whole state of California.

Dag
It's Gladys Kravitz--Gladys Kravitz from across the street in Bewitched. I remember well because my cousin had a pet chicken named "Gladys Kravitz From Across the Street"--seriously!

All joking aside--this really is very upsetting. People like Will who hates evangelicals and unborn children, will find it easy in Obama's new world to report and round up Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians.

Tiller was directly, personally, responsible for killing 60,000 people. I'd say that makes him worse than Hitler. Hitler sent others to kill. And no one cried when Hitler died.

And I just have to wonder.. what kind of church would support this animal who killed children?
No wonder the Joneses have resorted to meeting with other Christians in their home. Slowly, but surely, the churches are being controlled by the government. The government wants us all in churches where we can hear what they want us to hear. Reformation Lutheran Church must be at best a social club and at worst Propaganists for Lord Obama.

Aurorawatcher of 3:20
Obama has more than once refused to support a bill that would mandate medical attention for babies that have survived botched abortions. These babies, alive and breathing, separate from their mothers, have been refused attention and left to die. Newborns can not survive without food and care. This is murder by depraved indifference. By his actions, Obama and those who prevent such a law are guilty as accessories before and after the fact. Those who condone such incomprehensible contempt for innocent life are not much better. Even NOW does not support this deliberate murder.

aurorawatcher


aurorawatcher
Location: AK
Reply # 23
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 3:31 AM EST Ratas y Ratones
I thought maybe you were, but because I live in the state that I live in, I wanted to be sure.

You see, Alaska is a lot like the colonies were when England was in charge. We're pretty much only noticed when the Lower 48 wants our resources or Priscilla Feral wants to stage a "howl-in". We have some interesting ways of looking at things that the rest of the country (we discovered since Palin ran for VP) doesn't often appreciate. So, when folks like yourself say statements like you did, I'm not altogether certain taht you might not have laws on the books that don't allow 3 people to chat on a street corner. I'd feel sad for you if you did, but it wouldn't surprise me.

~~~


I believe "The Right To Assembly" is in the
"Bill Of Rights" ?


Ratas y Ratones
I thought maybe you were, but because I live in the state that I live in, I wanted to be sure.

You see, Alaska is a lot like the colonies were when England was in charge. We're pretty much only noticed when the Lower 48 wants our resources or Priscilla Feral wants to stage a "howl-in". We have some interesting ways of looking at things that the rest of the country (we discovered since Palin ran for VP) doesn't often appreciate. So, when folks like yourself say statements like you did, I'm not altogether certain taht you might not have laws on the books that don't allow 3 people to chat on a street corner. I'd feel sad for you if you did, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What a jackbooted thug society
We're turning into fuddy duddies everywhere. In this city there used to be Friday and Saturday night parties every weekend weather permitting, in local city homes. You couldn't miss the cars or the music.
Then we had the public go insane over drunk driving and kids and drugs and designated drivers and we wound up with the FED GOVERNMENT commercial where the cop opens the door to the vehicle and out pours the beer that's up to chest heighth inside - with the warning " You WILL BE CAUGHT !"
Now since they've moved past the young adult parties, they need some other thing to jackdown on. This time it's Bible study, next week it will be tupperware and ball games, football, or backyard croquet and barbequeing.
I am SO SICK of Alice Kravitz and she is everwhere nowadays.
They even force people more and more to chop down trees and bushes here and everywhere in this city so all the cops and Alice Kravitz' can have their eyes up everyone's rear end all day and dusk.
Strip everything away, no privacy, everyone's afraid of a mugger or a stray wild dog or something...
Now they peer into evey car to make sure a seatbelt is on, and a cellphone isn't being used.
Next an open soda will be illegal in a car, some places it already is.
GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR FACES YOU OLD FOGIES! YOU OLD FUDDY DUDDIE PARTY POOPING CITIZEN JACKBOOTS.
Everyone in the village watches all the children "for any signs" that they might need to alert someone.
I AM SO SICK OF THIS SOCIETY OF ALICE KRAVITZ.

Will
Again, would you have had the abolitionists of the 1840-50s shut up and not talk about the crime/sin of slavery? It was legal after all.

aurorawatcher




aurorawatcher
Location: AK
Reply # 13
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 2:41 AM EST Ratas y Ratones
I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I have a question. Do you mean in Indiana or California? You see, in Alaska, unless the group started throwing rocks or something, there's no unlawful assembly. In fact, neighbors gather on my block all the time to chat in the middle of the street. As long as they move when a car comes by, not even the cop up the street objects. Sometimes he's one of them.

And, I would also note that if you may have only one person over to your house at a time or it's considered unlawful assembly, a lot of people are breaking the law on a regular basis.

~~~

Kind person, I was being sarcastic.

This is one of the things we fought our Revolutionary war over.

Unlawful Assembly was more than 2 or 3 people.

That was one of the laws The British imposed upon us.

If they can stop a religious meeting, then they can defile everything in our Constitution.


' Precept ' means concept or idea. That is, the concept, that Mr. Norris was opposing.

I am in complete opposition to government interference in the lives of citizens, unless they are committing crimes.


USMC Lt.
Would you care to explain your comments, because I would never want to be in a position of agreeing with will on -- well, almost anything -- and I have to admit that your statements were a bit over the top unless you can explain them. Who was Mr. Obama murdered? Or what specific actions has he taken that has led to murder?

Will

No one is condoning the murder of Tiller. The murder suspect is in jail and awaiting prosecution.


We have a huge problem with the 60,000 abortions that Tiller performed, especially for the late term abortions.

In 2003, Tiller performed 250 near term abortions, according to his own records.

He earned a million dollars or more a year doing, in some part, what is illegal under the laws of Kansas. The law specifies extremely limited situations where an abortion after 21 weeks can occur. Tiller perverted the law.

Wow. So now the president
of the United States is a "murderer"?

Some of you posters are NUTS. I'm reading some of your incredible posts and trying to figure out which person among you will be the next one to bomb an abortion clinic or shoot the president.


I always thought some of you guys were anti-american (You want God's Law instead of the Constitution), but this webiste seems to be overflowing with potential future terrorists, "culture warriors", who are willing to kill and bomb and maim and murder.

And DON'T bring up abortionists. Abortion is LEGAL. If you have a problem with the laws, CHANGE THEM. Don't gun down people in church to fulfill your political agenda.

Will, ever hear of John Brown?
Yeah, he was an abolitionist terrorist who killed slave-holders because the institution of slavery really bothered him. I'm thinking he was probably "encouraged" by the sermons of the abolitionists. Not that they were saying to go out and kill slaveholders, but that was his interpretation of what was needed in the situation.

So, should the abolitionists have just sat down and shut up and accepted the "law of the land"? Should they have been held responsible for John Brown's actions? Maybe we should all just be living in a country that still accepts slavery as a way of life. John Brown was wrong to do what he did, the slave holders were wrong to do what they did. John Brown's murder of them didn't absolve them of any of their sin. Tiller was still a mass murderer, even if the laws of our country don't recognize that yet.


will
You're stating your opinion. Please, by all means, try proving that God is not real. God's provided ME with plenty of proof of His existence. I suspect He provided you with plenty as well, but you've chosen to ignore it. And, will, doing away with my relationship with the Lord might be a bit problematic, at least as difficult as trying to live without my heart or blood. That you don't understand the statements I'm making doesn't necessarily evidence that I don't know what I'm talking about. It does, however, evidence that you don't have the same relationship with God as I do. I feel sorry for you and I am extremely grateful to my Savior that I do not live in the same ignorance that you embrace. And, yes, I did once, so I do know what I'd be missing.

From my perspective, God outranks the United States government and the federal and state Constitutions. This was clearly evident when the US gov't was okay with slavery and evangelicals (they weren't called that back then, but they were that) helped to change the law to align with God's law rather than man's. This is no different. Man's law is WRONG. God's law is right. God's people have a moral and civil duty to stand up for what is right, even if people like you don't like it.

Hey Will,
When you make a statement condemning the murderer currently living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W., THEN you'll have the credibility to comment on this article or Jillian Bandes article.

The MURDERER at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, whom you defend and praise here on a daily basis is responsible for the deaths of probably THOUSANDS of unborn babies by his support of abortion.

BUT EVEN WORSE THAN THAT, he is guilty of the murder(by legislating into law the MANDATORY NEGLECT to give medical care or human comfort) of hundreds of babies who had the AUDACITY to survive the abortion meant to kill them.

If you want to criticize someone for murder start at the top. Start with the Murderer in Chief of the United States.

Ratas y Ratones
I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I have a question. Do you mean in Indiana or California? You see, in Alaska, unless the group started throwing rocks or something, there's no unlawful assembly. In fact, neighbors gather on my block all the time to chat in the middle of the street. As long as they move when a car comes by, not even the cop up the street objects. Sometimes he's one of them.

And, I would also note that if you may have only one person over to your house at a time or it's considered unlawful assembly, a lot of people are breaking the law on a regular basis.

Now for the actual subject
This hits me where I live, literally, because we have a neighbor who makes an annual effort to make Nativity scenes illegal in our neighborhood. She's got no problem, apparently, with my across-the-street neighbor's 8-foot glowing Santa Claus, but Mary, Joseph and Jesus must go. They're violating her right not to think about Christmas in religious terms.

So, I could imagine her trying to close down a Bible study. And, some should be closed -- or, really, moved. I have a friend who lives next door to someone who has some sort of large gathering every Friday night and they block the driveways for the entire block. That's just plain rude and the hosts should consider another venue. OTOH, I have a huge driveway -- the guy who owned my house before us had a lot of toys; we don't -- and could host 15 people and their cars without the neighbors noticing much less being inconvenienced. The thing that concerns me is not the meeting itself, but that the county seemed to think that the religious nature of the meeting warranted special attention. It is a First Amendment issue and Christians should continue to fight to maintain religious freedom and diversity in this country. Just because my neighbor doesn't like my beliefs doesn't mean she has the right to suppress them. That cuts both ways. Although her annual petition annoys me and I refuse to sign it, I've never made any attempt to stop it. Of course, I recognize that Alaska State law is pretty clear about private property, and Alaskans tend to have a 'just don't look if you don't like it' attitude, and so her petition isn't going anywhere. Government jack-boots showing up at my door, however, concerns me a bit more.

Awesome column Chuck!
You hit it again right on the nose! Our rights are being stripped away one by one.

Chuck...



To carry the precept one step further,

Two people on the street talking, is OK.

But, If a third person stops to chat,

IT IS UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY !



Get FREE chapter of Chuck's book!
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Chuck and Gena Norris recent interview
Chuck AND GENA Norris' most recent interview

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ADDED materials by Chuck at WND
Chuck adds even MORE MATERIAL in his EXCLUSIVE version of same article at World Net Daily http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=99738

“We’ve butchered and bastardized the First Amendment until it doesn’t resemble what our Founders intended. Even when Thomas Jefferson penned that legendary commentary on “a wall of separation between Church and State,” in his letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802), he was only concerned with prohibiting the domination and legislation of religious sectarianism in government, as it was back in England and even in some early colonies like Virginia. However, he was not trying to rid government or civic settings of religious influence and practice. (That’s a timely reminder, especially when so many graduation ceremonies across the land are http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=349183 even now being banned from incorporating religious discussion and invocations by student participants.)

“In 1789, during the same time when the First Amendment was written, then President George Washington signed into law the Northwest Ordinance, which states, ‘Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.’

“From Miss California Carrie Prejean (who also lives in San Diego) and her fight for freedom of speech, to this pastor and his wife and their fight for free exercise of religion, America’s First Amendment rights are progressively being trampled and even flushed down the cultural toilet. Will California really lead the way in obliterating such basic human rights?”

Will
You mischaracterize the article by Jillian Bandes and the commenters. I went to check it out. There were some very intolerant statements, but most of them were made by some pro-abortion supporters spoiling to fight with anyone who thinks that it's as wrong to murder babies in the womb as it is to murder them after they've been born. By all means, go and count the comments. About 2:1 nasty by the pro-abortion crowd. The pro-life crowd got a little peeved at you and your friends and perhaps shouldn't have been so tart in their comments about you, but you started it. Most of the pro-life commenters condemned the act of murder whether it was by Tiller or his assailant. Fact is, murder is murder and it's wrong no matter what. Why do you have trouble with that?

Will
Why are you such an @$$hat? Do you actually have anything to say about the article, or more importantly that basic first amendment rights were trampled on?

California always leads the way with this kind of garbage, its a preview of whats coming.

Holy Cow!
This story is absolutely unbelievable!

What a disgusting abuse of power by the county of San Diego!

Thank, Chuck Norris, for writing this article. I don't watch fox news or read worldnet, so even thought I'm just an hour to the north, I never would have known.

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