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Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Chuck Norris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Time for TEA and a Fair Tax
by Chuck Norris
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Teatime, anyone? I hope you've joined one of the thousands of TEA (Taxed Enough Already) parties or FairTax rallies, which are happening across the country April 15 to protest outrageous government spending, the deepening of our national debt, and the subsequent taxes. This is a nonpartisan time to rally around like-minded citizens and declare that we're tired of the same old political rhetoric and that we want a better way.

I personally encourage all people to voice to their representatives that we need to return to a taxation system similar to the one established by our Founding Fathers. They did not penalize productivity through taxes the way we do today. They had no Internal Revenue Service. They believed in minimal taxation. They did not pay income taxes, which were prohibited by the Constitution. They did not pay export taxes, which also were prohibited by the Constitution. But they did tax imports. The Founders believed in free trade within our own borders and a system of tariffs on imported goods.

That's a system that makes sense to me. It is a system designed to preserve individual liberty and encourage productivity (through no income taxes and no discouragement of domestic production through export taxes) while choosing to keep taxes as painless as possible (through taxes on foreign imports). And it doesn't require an IRS to run it.

The Founders would have been horrified at the bloated federal bureaucracy we have now and the maze of taxes we have to navigate: income taxes, employment taxes, capital gains taxes, estate taxes, corporate taxes, property taxes, Social Security taxes, gas taxes, etc. It was excessive taxation like this that drove the Founders to rebel in the first place.

All of the Founders were opposed to domestic taxes. They regarded high taxes and aggressive tax collectors as tyrannical and always to be guarded against. Patrick Henry warned: "Excisemen may come in multitudes, for the limitation of their numbers no man knows. They may, unless the general government be restrained by a bill of rights or some similar restriction, go into your cellars and rooms and search, ransack and measure everything you eat, drink and wear." (A prophetic statement?)

The IRS wasn't started until nearly 100 years after the Revolutionary War, in 1862 as the Bureau of Internal Revenue. Its creation coincided with the creation of the income tax, which it was designed to collect. Both were the work of President Abraham Lincoln and Congress, who saw them as necessary to pay for Civil War expenses.

It is interesting to note, however, that the income tax law expired 10 years later, was revived in 1894, and then was ruled by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional in 1895. Yet in 1913, it became law through the 16th Amendment. Ever since then, the income tax has deprived families of their rightful earnings, restricted our liberties, and deprived our economy of money that could have been invested in productive enterprises.

Today the IRS is the No. 1 enemy of your pocketbook. Who doesn't fear an IRS audit? It's the only federal agency that considers you guilty until proven innocent. It can't be overhauled or even reformed (Congress' attempts have failed).

The best answer is to abolish the IRS, sweep away the present tax code, and implement FairTax's plan, which lives up to its name. As Mike Huckabee says, "Wouldn't it be nice if April 15 were just another sunny spring day?" (Mike himself will be hosting a FairTax rally in Columbia, S.C.)

FairTax's plan would do away with all taxes and would put in their place a single consumptive (fair) tax, which right now is the closest practical proposal to the taxation system favored by the Founders. With the fair tax, the harder you worked and the more money you made the better off you and our economy would be. You would pay taxes only when you bought something, which means that you could control how much you'd be taxed and that you never would be penalized for working hard.

It's time we had a system through which people didn't have to figure out ways to cheat in order to save their money. Again, as Huckabee says: "The fair tax is a completely transparent tax system. It doesn't increase taxes. It's revenue-neutral. But here's what it will do: It will bring business back to the United States that is leaving our shores because our tax laws make it impossible for an American-based business to compete. … The fair tax was designed by economists from Harvard and Stanford and some of the leading think tanks across the country."

There are also trillions of dollars hiding in offshore accounts. With the fair tax, the people with their money offshore could bring it back to invest here, which would give a huge boost to our economy. It's the biggest stimulation package there is. As the FairTax Web site says, "Think of it as the World's Biggest Economic Jumper Cables."

If the Founding Fathers were here today, I believe they would support the fair tax. As James Madison said, "Taxes on consumption are always least burdensome because they are least felt and are borne, too, by those who are both willing and able to pay them; that of all taxes on consumption, those on foreign commerce are most compatible with the genius and policy of free states."

We don't need more tax reform. We need a tax revolution! And FairTax's plan would provide it. If we all jumped on the bandwagon and demanded our representatives implement such a taxation system, we could restore our nation economically and make the financially impossible become possible again.

Friends, we must keep fighting. Join your nearest TEA party or FairTax rally, and bring your cell phone, too, so that you can call Congress and the president to share why you've gathered together. (The phone number for representatives and senators is 202-224-3121, and the president's is 202-456-1414.)

If you haven't found the nearest location for a TEA party or FairTax rally, go to TeaPartyDay.com or FairTax.org. Invite your friends, too. And don't forget to bring copies of this article or another one that explains the fair tax so others can be educated, as well. Why wait? Forward it now to everyone you know, and let's get the party rolling!

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About The Author
Chuck Norris is a columnist and impossible to kill.
 
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Chuck
I'm going to try to make the one in cleveland. Hopefully the undercover libs wont be there. they have been trying to make republicans look bad by shouting things and doing things to stir up animosity towards us.Whichever one you go to Chuck,if they show up give em' the boot...LITERALLY.

Chuck writes:
The Founders would have been horrified at the bloated federal bureaucracy we have now
======================

Most Americans have no idea how huge it has become.
Huge List of Government Agencies

http://www.akdart.com/gov1.html

Most probably will not even bother to look at this list...
"This compilation is a list of government agencies, offices, commissions, bureaus, foundations, divisions, directorates, departments, bureaus, institutes, administrations and "services"

Destroying on Purpose
Barack Obama is Destroying Our Economy on Purpose. Description: A pair of radical Columbia University professors by the name of Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven wrote an article in the radical magazine known as The Nation. The article was published on May 2, 1966 and laid out what is now known as the "Cloward-Piven Strategy". The plan calls for the destruction of capitalism in America by swelling the welfare rolls to the point of collapsing our economy and then implementing socialism by nationalizing many private institutions.

http://www.worldviewradio.com/episode.php?EpisodeID=10958

talent scout
paranoid, much? there is a lot of good medication out for that, now.

Very paraniod jason
Everywhere one looks today he finds idiots like you

CLOWARD-PIVEN STRATEGY

This is real

First proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.

Inspired by the August 1965 riots in the black district of Watts in Los Angeles (which erupted after police had used batons to subdue a black man suspected of drunk driving), Cloward and Piven published an article titled "The Weight of the Poor: A Strategy to End Poverty" in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation. Following its publication, The Nation sold an unprecedented 30,000 reprints. Activists were abuzz over the so-called "crisis strategy" or "Cloward-Piven Strategy," as it came to be called. Many were eager to put it into effect.

In their 1966 article, Cloward and Piven charged that the ruling classes used welfare to weaken the poor; that by providing a social safety net, the rich doused the fires of rebellion. Poor people can advance only when "the rest of society is afraid of them," Cloward told The New York Times on September 27, 1970. Rather than placating the poor with government hand-outs, wrote Cloward and Piven, activists should work to sabotage and destroy the welfare system; the collapse of the welfare state would ignite a political and financial crisis that would rock the nation; poor people would rise in revolt; only then would "the rest of society" accept their demands.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6 967

Orchestrated Crisis
Who was it that said not to waste a crisis?

Some people with obama, right.
=======================

American Thinker

no one to my knowledge has yet connected all the dots between Barack Obama and the Radical Left. When seen together, the influences on Obama's life comprise a who's who of the radical leftist movement, and it becomes painfully apparent that not only is Obama a willing participant in that movement, he has spent most of his adult life deeply immersed in it.

But even this doesn't fully describe the extreme nature of this candidate. He can be tied directly to a malevolent overarching strategy that has motivated many, if not all, of the most destructive radical leftist organizations in the United States since the 1960s.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy of Orchestrated Crisis

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the _strategy.html

Washington Times
This is real
====================

CHANDLER: The Cloward-Piven strategy
Using the poor to tear down capitalism

By Robert Chandler | Wednesday, October 15, 2008

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/15/the-cloward -piven-strategy/

Jason
Let me apologize for calling you an idiot.

You probably are just not aware of this, but this explains what is happening now
=====================

From American Thinker, an excerpt summary of Obama’s efforts to help ACORN, which has a very long history with Cloward-Piven believers:

As a community activist for ACORN; as a leadership trainer for ACORN; as a lead organizer for ACORN’s Project Vote; as an attorney representing ACORN’s successful efforts to impose Motor Voter regulations in Illinois; as ACORN’s representative in lobbying for the expansion of high risk housing loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that led to the current crisis; as a recipient of their assistance in his political campaigns — both with money and campaign workers; it is doubtful that he (Obama) was unaware of ACORN’s true goals. It is doubtful he was unaware of the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
http://sharprightturn.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/a-must-read- the-cloward-piven-strategy-and-obamas-role/

talent scout
apology accepted. and thank you for reaching out. i may be very naive, but i am a true believer in "doing the right thing". i may be a liberal, and i don't apologize for that, but i realize that my politics here, renders me invalid, and that is a shame.

So Jason
You suppose this was reaching out?
========================
Jason writes:1:59 AM EST
talent scout
paranoid, much? there is a lot of good medication out for that, now.
======================
You a bible teacher too?
I never said anything about the bible on this thread.

I called you an idiot for acting like one with the above post, for no reason.
Its what an idiot does, Jason.
And you are naive

Please drop the silly name
Consumption tax makes far better sense than production (income) tax. But please leave it to lefties to use question-begging words like "fair". Let us make up our own minds whether a consumption tax is fair, rather try to think for it. If you disagree, do you think the free-speech-destroying "fairness doctrine" to undermine conservative talk radio has anything to do with fairness?

Seperate the two
To me, irresponsible spending and fair taxation are two very separate items and should be with as such. And as much as I hate the tax methodology currently in use, it's the spending and it's ability to destroy this county very quickly that has me most worried. Also, these two items attract very different political audiences and at this point we need to keep as much politics out of the argument and focus more on responsibility of which we are seeing very little. The current rate of spending will destroy this county very quickly and that should be number one for all of us.

Jason.............




...........I'm sure that there are people in bars that laugh their asses off at you, too, sport. Especially with the moronic outlook you have.

Do you LIKE the IRS? Do you LIKE the way we are taxed? Do you have a clue what Chuck's column was even about?

But Chuck, as Dr. Sowell often says ...
... "What happens next?"

You don't want export tariffs but import tariffs are great. The theory, I suppose, is that they will protect American workers from the outsiders' products. But what's next?

Here's what. As a response, other countries will impose import tariffs, thereby raising prices on our goods in their countries and supposedly protecting their workers. What's the difference between export tariffs here and import tariffs there? Either will have the same effect, i.e., trade wars.

As a long-time supporter of the FairTax I'm with you (for the umpteenth time in these spaces) in urging everyone to read the book(s) and join me in sending a monthly contribution to Americans For Fair Taxation.

One United States
The founders wanted the United States to be different than the ruling monarchies of their day.

Today, we have world communism, and we have a president who has told the U.N. that we are now a Cog in the One World Communist Government.

Yes, it is time for some good old fashioned Isolationism. Tax imports. Get rid of governmental agencies and departments that have driven our production facilities offshore. Get rid of the excessive taxes imposed on profits.

It is better to be a Free Country, than to be part of a one-world Global Communist community which is what the One World Government U.N. is proposing. Why do you think that we became involved in NAFTA and CAFTA. These were just more steps into the League of Communist nations.

We need to get out of these agreements, as well as getting out of the United Nations, NATO, WHO, IMF and all the other international leagues that traitors of this country have entered us into. I do not care which party sold us out. It is time that Real Americans take this country back and put it back on the track that it started from. A track that spelled Freedom of the Individual as opposed to being Dictated to by the State. The United States in only a couple of hundred years has gone from a Free Country, free of Monarchs and Dictators, to becoming a nation that has used the Constitution itself to destroy personal freedom and liberty.

The IRS is just one agency that needs to be abolished. It needs to be followed by the U.S. Department of Education, HHS, EPA, FDA, and all the other Bureaucratic Empires that have been built by Politicians and Despots.

Democrat's motivation for Income Tax
The problem with aboloshing the Income Tax is that it removes the Democrat's ability to control people. If taxation were about bringing in more revenue to the Federal Government, then lower tax rates from the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush eras would have deomonstrated to all the onerousness of Income Taxes.

TEA PARTY EVOLUTION
Symbolic, that our ancestors 'dressed up' like Indians and threw tons of Tea into the Boston Harbor in protest.
Today, since our government believes in their 'progressive evolution' of power and control, on April 15th Americans should 'dress up' like politicians and throw piggy banks stuffed with monopoly money into the nearest Ocean, lake, river, mudd puddle or 'sink hole' they can find.

Dems are also robbing the poor
Where is our Robin Hood???

He is destroying us
B.H. Obama is destroying our country. It is time to stop him. He never should have been put in office in the first place.

Jason From Md
Jason, you have now explained why you are a braindead Socialist. You live in Baltimore. I had the mis-fortune or maybe, good fortune, to visit Baltimore several times in the mid 1990's. I got a first hand look at how a Socialist City operates. My friends teenage kids were afraid to get on a public bus because of the lawlessness of thugs who were running rampant all over this cespool of a city. Baltimore, Md. is a perfect examply of how the lawless masses demanded and got a welfare state mentality. In the meantime, the folks who work for a living in Baltimore, are taxed and regulated to death by Marxist Politicians who control their government. But, of course, what would you expect since Baltimore is just an extension of that cespool of a city called Washington DC, where they elect Convicted Crack Head Whore Mongers as Mayor. Case closed Jason.

Seperating the two
I agree with Phillip, there are two issues: out of control spending and equitable taxation. It is obscence that we pay less than 75% of our federal expenses and pass the debt on to our children. The ridiculous amount and on what we spend needs to be controlled, first and foremost.

Even if we get spending under control it must still be paid and we must not borrow to met our obligations. I do not know what is the best method. I do not think a consumption based tax is the correct approach. A person/family can only spend so much. How much, as percentage of his income do you think Bill Gates spends, compared to you and me? Above a certain point the income and wealth just starts to accumulate. One of the current problems is the vast disparity in income/wealth distribution, the L-curve. This wealth starts to stagnate and doesn't do the economy any good.

Is today's progressive tax rates fair? Take two people, one making about 100K and the other about 200K. All other things being equal, they both will be paying the same federal tax rate, however one pays approximately 7% towards "social security" while the other pays 3.5%. Don't give me the argument that you are really just buying some form of pension that both will get the same amount (which is true). Social security has just become part of the general income.


Impeach OBAMA
Let's start an Impeach Obama petition. Then, follow that with Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Boxer, Waters, and all the other communists and thugs that we have allowed to subvert this great country. Then, get around to abolishing the U.S. Department of Mis-Education, the IRS, The HHS Welfare Machinery, the EPA, and all the other Alphabet Soup agencies and departments that have been created by the Communists who infiltrated our system and have eroded our freedoms, our treasury, and our productivity and sovereignty as a nation. Step by step, the communists have taken us over in the way that Kruschev said that they would. He told JFK that the Communists would overthrow the American Government without firing a shot. Kruschev knew that we already had many commuists in government, in our universities, and most especially in the so-called entertainment community, centered in the Great Sociaist State of California, USA. Witness the spawning of Revolutionaries in this country. Where did they start? Does Berkely come to mind? Does Watts come to mind? Does the group Black Panthers come to mind? Does the Symbianese Liberation Army come to mind? Does the term Hollywood come to mind? Yes, the communists have been around for a while. And, the election of Barack Hussein Obama proves that Kruschev was correct. Now, Obama, Pelosi, Tucker, Reid, Waters and the other Communists are Driving the Final Nail into the Coffin of the United States of America, and the Hollywood gang is cheering them on with the evening news, TV shows, movies, and so-called Musical Entertainment. Are we going to wake up in time to stop them???

Impeach OBAMA
Let's start an Impeach Obama petition. Then, follow that with Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Boxer, Waters, and all the other communists and thugs that we have allowed to subvert this great country. Then, get around to abolishing the U.S. Department of Mis-Education, the IRS, The HHS Welfare Machinery, the EPA, and all the other Alphabet Soup agencies and departments that have been created by the Communists who infiltrated our system and have eroded our freedoms, our treasury, and our productivity and sovereignty as a nation. Step by step, the communists have taken us over in the way that Kruschev said that they would. He told JFK that the Communists would overthrow the American Government without firing a shot. Kruschev knew that we already had many commuists in government, in our universities, and most especially in the so-called entertainment community, centered in the Great Sociaist State of California, USA. Witness the spawning of Revolutionaries in this country. Where did they start? Does Berkely come to mind? Does Watts come to mind? Does the group Black Panthers come to mind? Does the Symbianese Liberation Army come to mind? Does the term Hollywood come to mind? Yes, the communists have been around for a while. And, the election of Barack Hussein Obama proves that Kruschev was correct. Now, Obama, Pelosi, Tucker, Reid, Waters and the other Communists are Driving the Final Nail into the Coffin of the United States of America, and the Hollywood gang is cheering them on with the evening news, TV shows, movies, and so-called Musical Entertainment. Are we going to wake up in time to stop them???

Our progressive income
tax really isn't. The wealthiest pay a lower tax rate than the middle class. The wealthy pay very little taxes -- it is high income earners who pay the most and very few of these people are wealthy. Tiger Woods may draw a high income Teresa Heinz Kerry does not. Most people being hit hard are small businesses like contractors, doctors, store owners. And the other group being hit hard is tow-income families including couples like a major city teacher and fireman or a nurse and policeman.

We are fast reaching the point where 50% of households will pay no federal income taxes -- these people are then not concerned about government spending or the confiscatory taxes placed on individuals and families who are struggling due to the tax burden. And their certainly not concerned about future generations. It isn't healthy for any society.

Huh
Income staxes have not been raised in 16 years. Obama's plan would still leave the taxes on the wealthy lower than they were when Reagan was in office. As to social programs, which one of you wingnuts is willing to make a pledge that he or she will not accept their social security check and not use their medicare card.

Hypocrate is the operative word that best describes conservatives, railing against socialism but more than willing to partake.

We are also
under the current system fast reaching the point where people who are increasingly burdened by taxes and fees are going to choose to not participate and then where will we be?

Small business owners will choose to earn less meaning they will decide that working harder to expand their busineses (creating jobs) just isn't worth the effort.

I reached my tax limit this weekend. I realized that the extra income my household made in 2008 over 2007 was being taxed at 46% by the federal government and will be taxed at 6% by my state. Keeping 48% of these earnings does not motivate me to work as much this year. I will be working less. I'm also so angry and appalled by the size of the checks I am sending to the fed, state, and local governments that I have decided my household will be making no discretionary purchases for at least the next three months and am hoping this becomes a way of life. I now have a bunker mentality. Every penny the government does not take from me will be hoarded I'm not real concerned about the larger economy let those who want to tax the "rich" feel some pain with reduced incomes and job losses.

If the middle and upper-middle classes would lock down what income they can keep, we could shut this economy down.

frank
Or you could raise taxes on the wealthy to narrow the gap. Clinton surplus to Bush Deficit and the conservative were silent. Now that Obama is in charge wingnuts become deficits hawks again.


grayhawk
Have you torn up your medicare card? Did you return your social security check. I guess a little socialism is OK if your getting something.


JMO51
SS and medicare are a false argument as we have been forced to participate. I know these programs won't be available to me as I am too young but I've always said I plan to take a defibrillator every where I go once I'm eligible so I can hang on as long as possible to get some of this money that was stolen from me back.

And we are taxed too much and it's not just the rich. There are jurisdictions in this country where people are paying real estate taxes of 15, 18 thousand dollars a year on crappy little 1000 sq foot 1970's ramblers and split-levels. We are all paying 15.4% of our income off the tope (no deductions) for SS and medicare. And to add insult to injury many of us will never see a penny of this money again.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
Tourists already pay when they come here. They pay hotel occupany taxes and excise taxes on their tickets.

The biggest problem with the (Un)fair tax is that the poorer you are the most of your income that you consume. So the poor and middle class pay a higher percentage of their income than the wealthy and must higher than the mega wealthy.

Also the American who travels abroad and therefore consumes out of the country will not pay taxes on that part of their income, this will encourage the mega wealthy to purchase vacation properties abroad rather than in the USA.

LuLu
So because you are taxes to finance the socialist system, you plan to take what you can get.


Lulu
What this suggests is that you have a self interest objection to socialism, not an ideological objection. Because if you truely believed this was wrong you would not partake and everyone did that they system would end.

Taxation
I am amused by all these threads. Very insulting to some and also some are very informative. I have to agree that taxes are killing us all. Usually when you are down you have a real hard time to get up. But we are also being taken by false welfare claims, immigrants not paying taxes, and the inability of the goverment to stop the illlegals from sneaking in and taking our jobs. Taxes are bad but only the icing on a really bad cake. So lets rid of the overbearing taxes and then lets work on the reform of welfare and immigration. We were founded by people from other lands, but we were all treated equal then. (Except the indians but thats another story, huh) We need to be that way again. Too many children here in America go to bed humgry and homeless. Lets fix that. Lets heal America for awhile.

No JMO51
since I had huge amounts of money stolen from me at the point of a gun I would like to get some back. I would have a better safer retirement and be able to leave money to my children if I was not having 15.4% of my wages stolen from every paycheck. And as I will get back less than I paid in to the "trust fund" (lol) I don't consider it welfare. I consider it a ponzi scheme that forced participation. I believe the federal government has become a criminal enterprise. But don't fret I'm too young to ever see a penny -- I'll be working til the day I die because I'll be taxed more every year to pay for those who won't work and for Congressmen to buy votes through pork.

If I was left what my husband and I will have paid through 50 years of work to SS and medicare I'd have over a million dollars before earning interest. But your right SS and medicare are excellent programs -- lol.

Popular
Lets face it. Social Security and Medicare are popular programs and without Republican Meddling would have been fixed a long time ago.

Everywing nut who reaches 65 applies just like the rest of us. Because behind the veil of ideology, all wingnut believe in getting what you can from the system. Their principle objection when you peel it all back is that someone else is getting a better deal and that is the real issue. Paying and having someone else benefit. As long as they get the benefit they are OK with Socialism.

Thats why Republicans act so irresponsibily when in office. They cut taxes, which is very popular, not don't cut services especially to the middle class (which is not).

The result is higher debts which are just fine until a Democrat gets into office. They talk about cutting spending but never about cutting services. As if you can have services without spending. Cutting spending sounds painless, cutting services not so much.


I'm going to say it again
if you have any extra money after the government mugs you and you finance your basic needs, don't spend it. Save it in foreign currency, precious metals and other commodities. Hide what you can from the government because they are coming for our savings eventually do not fall into the IRA or 401k traps laid by the government.

And who cares if restaurants, retailers, and other employers have to lay people off these workers were just being oppressed by the greedy corporations and the unfairness that tax payers weren't having more confiscated from them.

Fair Tax vs. Flat Tax
We tried something close to a flat tax in 1986 when we had only three tax brackets and very few items requiring accountants and attorneys to manipulate. You can see how long that lasted before it evolved into the mess we have now.

Of course, the underlying problem is that we allow our representatives to support (with our money) programs which are unconstitutional (illegal). For examples, studying the sex habits of clams and the Federal Department of Education and Indoctrination.

LuLu
Don't believe in socialism don't take the check. And since were on the subject, which members of the Republican leadership are calling for an end to Social Security of Medicare. Not one of them. I wonder why?

Could it be that even in the reddest of red states these programs are popular, which means were are a socialist nation. (At least as far a the boggie man wingnut telling us about the evils of socialism.)

You know the far left nuts who don't believe in a strong military feel forces to pay taxes with a gun to their head too.

The Boston Tea Party was about taxation without representation, but social security, and medicare were created by votes of congress including votes from many Republicans. It was Reagan who set up the commission to save social security so Republicans own the program and your savior RR was behind it. Was Reagan a socialist too?


JMO51
So, you expect me to pay into the Social Security Ponzi Scheme for decades and then refuse to take any money back when I have a chance? Am I supposed to endure all the negatives and just write them off?

No, this is not a popular program. In addition to being unconstitutional (illegal), it provides a pitifully low return on investment--that is, if you can even consider getting money from the next batch of suckers to be a return on investment.

poorgrandchildren.com
Name one Republican elected official who is in favor of ending social security or medicare.

Beleive me if they were really unpopular, Republicans would be taking turn lining up to tell us that they goal was to dismantle these programs.

They all talk vaguely about cutting government spending, but will never ever say they plan to take away granny's medical care. You could not even win an election in Alabama with that platform.


ANYONE IN THE MILITARY
attending a Tea Party would be wise to wear their uniform. Perhaps that would quell the Acorn Army which will be dispatched by the friends and accomplices of the 'one' to cause trouble.

Definitrion of a wingnut
Someone preoccupied with making sure that he or she gets a dollar for dollar return in entitlements for their investment in taxes.

Never Ratified by the States
The sixteenth and seventh amendments were never ratified.

Politicians year after year ignore the constitution by not ratifying or stopping taxation. Do not tell me one who cares when they do not correct the wrongs.

They all have stamped their approval illegals. Not just those that cross the border, but taxation.

JMO51
You mean our SS "contributions" aren't in a trust fund?

JMO51
why do you assume I'm a republican. I notice on this site -- the liberals always assume everone is old, evangelical Christian, white, and Republican.

I'm Caucasian but the rest...

I'm not a Republican I'm a pissed off taxpayer who is sick to death of working only to have most of my income taken through taxes and fees at every level of government to pay for the lazy non-taxpayers and corrupt politicians. I'm mad as heck.

JMO51
#35
A poor person, working or not would receive higher compensation. The extra pay would come from Companies not having to pay out billions & billions for lawyers and accountants.
Also, the poor person will always pay a greater portion of there income no matter what tax system is used.

And people going out of the Country would pay the consumption tax via travel costs(airfare). And any property bought anywhere would fall under the consumption tax.

JMO51
SS and medicare are not popular with people under 40 because they are the future victims of this ponzi scheme when this all blows up.

The problem is old people vote more than young people and politicians are cowards.

Most politicians know where these programs are heading and it's not pretty, but they don't want to do the unpopular thing and tell the truth. The truth is they are unsustainable without raising taxes to rates almost inconceivable to most people, cutting promised benefits, and dedicating the majority of our GDP to servicing these programs. We are all headed to a lower standard of living and a no economic growth economy. But the average American is more concerned about their favorite sports team and American Idol. Not to mention they can't balance their own checkbook and zone out when anything more complex than: the rich people are bad and need to pay more is said concerning our fisca policies.

sunny spring day
That would be nice, except it is snowing here in Spokane on April 14th. Must be because of Gorbal warming. I guess we better cap and trade our selves out of existence or shoot sulfur into the atmosphere, because the cold we are experiencing is a sure sign that the earth will warm in 10 or 20 years. See you tomorrow at 4:30 in downtown Spokane, Washington.

Argonaut... [ jasen ]



Jason
Location: MD
Reply # 10
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 2:27 AM EST talent scout
you have got it all wrong. i have a wonderful life that i thank God for everyday. I hate hypocrites and i despise people, like you, who ascribe to, and then trash, the Bible. YOU are either a liar or a phony. take your pick while you lay down tonight. my guess is alone, once more.

~~~

JASSON, YOU ARE A RETARD.

Talent Scout is at least a hundred times more intelligent than you.

He researches everything he says, and backs up everything he posts with facts.

You, on the other hand are merely a dumocrap voter, who despises everyone who earns money that you, are then awarded by the creeps you elect.

That makes you a leech. A parasite. And, No, 'Parasite' does not make you an elite 'parisian'.

It makes you a scum. A bedbug. A bloodsucker. An arachnid. A mite. A scabie. A chigger ( Look that one up, as you fit perfectly. )

Other than that, jesion du jour, you have a mission. It is called the Alamo. you can go out front and beg for forgiveness.

The others will kill a few thousand of the enema, and eventually die. This was at about 20 to one kill ratio. Dang those patriots!


Tim
Read and respond to the article or STFU.

JMO51
You are correct that the Republicans in Congress only give lip service to cutting expenses and never mention the sacred cow of the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. They have lost much of their base by being so spineless, and third parties are getting stronger as they fill the vacuum.

LD35
Gee, sorry, can you fill me in on the rest of the rules you've made up?

Greyhawk
You have NO IDEA how right you are about Baltimore. I live in North Central MD and REFUSE to go into Baltimore for ANY REASON!

The Fair Tax would create an AVALANCHE of cash for the Government as EVERYONE, be they Bill Gates or Bill Gates’ Groundskeeper, buys things on an almost daily basis.

Rte66ZenMaster, anti jasen...



Jason
Location: MD
Reply # 10
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 2:27 AM EST talent scout
you have got it all wrong... [sic]

~~~

Oh! I would guess that 'Talent Scout' has an I. Q. of around 130 to 140.

I would guess jasen's i. q. at about 13 to 14.

I respectfully await any successful refutation.

I am still waiting... Well, I see this is NOT going to happen.


Sorry jassin, you lose...



However, if anyone would care to discuss the difference, I could come back later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Rte66ZenMaster
Location: MO
Reply # 15
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 5:02 AM EST Jason.............

Hay, jasone...


...........I'm sure that there are people in bars that laugh their asses off at you, too, sport. Especially with the moronic outlook you have.

Do you LIKE the IRS? Do you LIKE the way we are taxed? Do you have a clue what Chuck's column was even about?

Of course not! you get money from the give-ment to avoid having to work. this is the prefect life for you.

Sadly, we, who have to pay for your crap, do not like it. Therefore, you feel free to hate us.

Fine. Perhaps within your lifetime, you will see the error of your ways.

Perhaps not.


~~~~~~~~~~


Now, Now, Rte66ZenMaster, You rotter... ( Me too! )

You know that Jason is an innocent.

We should not make fun of the illiterate, the ignorant, the foolish, the morons, and others of their ilk...

But! Dammit. It is just such fun!

WhooHah!



keep teabaggin' losers..and georgetwin
are you teabaggin' to protest the bailouts or the budget? or the fact that you lost to liberals (badly) and the country seems to be shifting towards a much more liberal and secular future?
does it really bother you that the economy seems to have hit a turning point and is now showing signs of growth?
you know what is better than deregulation of industry (capitalism)? regulation.
i'll bet the poll that shows only 53% of americans believe capitalism is an effective economic system has you crapping your pants. haha.

-georgetwin: are you also showing more signs of growth?

poorgrandchildren.com
I must give you credit for consistent view on this issue. Of course, I do not see it as you do and believe social security and medicare are the most important entitlement programs and should be strengthed not weakend. I am also in favor of universal healthcare. But that me.

LuLu
I am not assuming that you are old. I did assume you were a Republican. As to the lockbox, no Social Security has always been a pay as you go system with some funds in reserve. This has meant that some people have gotton more out of the system than they paid in largely because of cost of living increases.

No one knows for sure what the birthrates will be 30 or forty years from know. We do know that the baby boomers represent a bubble, but eventually they will die off and a small number of people will be collecting.

I think in the short term, we should eliminate the cap, and increase the SS slightly. This would stabilze the system at least until most of the baby boomers have passes on and then the cap can be reinstated.


Fair tax is regressive
The problem with the fair tax which is a consumption tax is that it is regressive. But that can be remedied by providing a refundable tax credit to those whose income are below a certain level. Otherwise I like the idea of a fair tax is is simplier and it is more difficult for people to beat the system. That said we would still need some kind of IRS to monitor the collection and transmission of the taxes. But at least no more tax preparation for consumers, estimated taxes for small businesses, etc.

Of course, the level of taxation is a different matter from the method of levy. If we had a Fair Tax wouldn't the same cast of characters be holding a tea party to complain about the fair tax rates and wasteful government spending (Not Services?)

is JMO51 serious?
"So because you are taxes to finance the socialist system, you plan to take what you can get."

YES!!!! That is exactly right. Why would any sane person expect anything less?

Am I to assume that you would be just as harsh on someone who was NOT taxed "taking what they can get"?..or is that no big deal?

..."Because if you truely believed this was wrong you would not partake and everyone did that they system would end."

I guess you tell your boss that you only want to be paid enough to cover the essentials for your family right??? You take a pass when raise time comes around right? Because if you truly believed socialism was right you would partake (by not making more than you need) so that everyone else could have their fair share.

Here's the problem with your arguments. They are not based in any sort of sound logical reasoning or principles. You have no core values to work from...therefore your arguments are weak. You sound like the newbies I work with that come right out of college knowing the answers in the back of the book without actually reading the book.

FYI - The financial problems of this country were not created by Republicans or Democrats. They were created by power hungry politicians disguised as do-gooders with no regard for the future or basic economic principles.

Now..as far as the Fairtax goes. It is true that spending needs to be controlled as well as taxation. However, the current tax structure enables rampant spending by both parties. The politicians know that if they need money for program X all they need to do is just tweak this taxcode line or that line or add this fee or add 10 more pages....after all what's 10 more pages out of 60,000? This allows pols to spend first and ask questions later. I believe that a drastic simplification of the tax structure would make it much harder for pols to exploit it (and the citizens of this country) to fund their ridiculous spending habits.

Reagan's Rates Were Higher
Why didn't conservatives organize tax protests against Ronald Reagan's government, since his rates of taxation then were higher than the ones Obama is proposing? (Dead silence on the part of conservatives.)

Last night on TV it was pointed out that while Sean Hannity has been raving about "skyrocketing taxes" in fact, our rate of taxation has been stable for sixteen years.

The facts don't support any of this teabag nonsense. Conservatives are boiling over with vague rage about matters not financial but social---about the President being black, about gays getting married, and about a more liberal policy toward abortion and stem-cell research.

Nothing new there. What I find most troublesome is the rhetoric encouraging violence and armed insurrection against an elected government---terrorism disguised as patriotism. That is about as un-American as you can get.

DREAMS OF SUGAR PLUM FARIES

.....CHUCK ...

.....The only way the tax code is going to get changed is if enraged citizens march on the Capitol and physically shut down government ...

.....Tax payers who look upon a tax refund as free money from the government are incapable of understanding the FAIR TAX so why should they support it ...much less get worked up over it? ...

.....You might have a better shot convincing people that a FLAT TAX would be better than the present system but until the voters put fear into the hearts of the politicians ...nothing is going to change .....COLOSSUS

Lulu
Ponzi scheme..you are so right. My husband and I retired, we were forced into that system, we weren't given the free choice that American's should have by their birthright but FDR and hs commie friends pushed this theft through. Then LBJ added to it, medicare..and then our thieving
Congress from both parties have raided the so called Trust Fund so that now it's on the brink.
I HATE having been forced to pay into something so that the elected thieves could squander it to pay off their buddies. I don't want my kids and grandkids having to pay into this con game, like we had to, I want them to have the right to
personal accounts..but then the thugs we elect won't be able to touch it..o wait a minute, maybe now they can since they have dear leader making all the rules.
And now, did ya hear the latest, the DHS is labeling anyone who protests this theft of freedom by the marxist rulers as right wing extremism and they are going to be watching us.
I am sure they will engineer a good crisis so they won't waste their tyannical objectives.
WACO and Elian Gonzalez were just practice runs.

And what do we hear from the self imposed minority party..........chirp chirp..crickets.

Easy Solution Here, Folks
OK, I've read through this whole thread, now I understand the situation, and I've got a solution. Try this: 1) Divide the entire country into people younger than 50 and those older than 50. 2) Assume that the younger folks don't want Social Security or Medicare. Let them take their payments into SS and M and invest them personally and privately in the stock market. 3) Ooooops, bad couple of weeks on Wall Street---money's all gone, too bad. 4) Younger generation moves in with its elderly parents, who are steadily chugging along on a plan less dramatic than Wall Street but, oh, so reliable.

BTW, do you kids really think you can count on Corporate America? I had an email last night from a young friend who is making $150,000 a year in a very good job with that outfit. She just got a notice from her employer that their policy of paying a year's salary as severance pay in the event of lay-off is now history---they will now pay only between 10 and 20 weeks' salary---and it's rumored that big lay-offs are coming. But by all means get rid of Unemployment Compensation---that's evil Socialism.

JMOwhatever
Your arguments are bogus. Anyone who espouses that it is right to steal from the wealthiest to give to the parasites is just as greedy as the self aggrandizing politicians who have protected their income, their pensions.. What business is it of yours what anyone earns?
If you are that envious, why not come up with something that will increase your own wealth.
I just love that greedy mantra..TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH and who are the ones calling it that?
Why the likes of Teddy Kennedy, John I was in Vietnam Kerry, Nazi Pelosi, Obama (athe Chitown
Machines boy wonder; etc...All of them RICH..
So, why would people who ARE rich want to TAX themselves..ya think they have it squirreled away..like Teddy so that he only pays a pittance in taxes on his millions? Hmmmm????
What about Jay Rockefellar..filthy rich, ya think he's gonna part with his brass easily?
If you believe they are honest, there's a bridge for sale somewhere around Brooklyn.
Anyone buying that baldface lie is stuck on stupid and there's no cure for stupid.

Who do you think creates jobs? Not the thieves running this country..but citizens with the smarts and ambition to get out there and work
their butts off building businesses so that
nincompoops like you can have a job, unless you are one of the parasites that want us to
support you.

TransexualReprobate
So how long were you locked up for pedophilia this time?

Re: lilly
I guess you believe that you are entitled to "free bees" from the government. Where do you think the funds come from? If everyone believed as you do, no one would be contributing (taxed) to the funds and eventually it would run out!

Excessive Taxes Is Tyranny
Show up to the Tea Parties and send tea bags to the White House - and will someone let Obama and his team know that the U.S. Constitution states that excessive taxation is tyranny and grounds for impeachment, I would think.

lilly
I'll gladly support your solution lilly. Because as I've said many times I could set the money on fire keeping one dollar out and still make out better than SS as someone my age will never see a penny but is going to continually asked to pay more for others.

btw, no one said where you have to inest your money. Honestly you could put it in a passbook savings account, your mattress, or your beanie babies collection just so we are clear that no one owes anyone a paid retirement.

And I am not a lover of large corporations anymore than I love large government -- bureacracy is by its nature evil. But how in the world is a company supposed to afford to pay someone a year's salary that is no longer working for them? Your company does not owe you a job and they do not have to pay you any severance. You do not owe that company your loyalty or your labor you are free to leave at any time and should do so if you have a better option.

JMO51
Social Security is pay as you go???

So......when it started and 17 people were putting in for every 1 supported....it was pay as you go?

So..now with 4 people paying in for every one supported....its pay as you go??

Wow......you sir.....need to hit the bong pipe again!!!

User Fee, Part 2
Joel-De Oppresso Liber (is that liberal?)

What facts do you have that show that a 1 percent tax would be enough to keep the government running? The proponents of the fair tax suggest a 17 percent rate. It does not matter what your income level is, when you purchase something, you pay a 17 percent tax. By the way, so would people who make their money dishonestly. Seems like a win-win!

Lily
I would be ecstatic with the government giving me my SS money back......no government can spend as wisely as I can

Was it not your beloved Mr Gore that started spouting off about private lock boxes because the public was questioning where the money was??

Another issue that needs to be addressed
is public sector pensions. They should be done away with for all new hires at the local, state, an federal levels. It is completely unjust that taxpayers who do not have pensions are paying ever increasing taxes to support the early retirements of government employees. Working for 20 to 30 years for a government entity should not entitle you to a full retirement funded by the taxpayer.

As I live in VA I know many federal government employees, I do not have one friend or acquaintance who makes less than 100k as a federal employee -- surely this amount of income with lifetime job security should enable these people to fund their own retirements as we expect private sector employees with no job security and lower salaries to do so.

lily
The other thing to remember is that the current state of economic affairs was brought upon the US by liberalised loan policies and lending practices for mortgages............Left alone to its own devices and banks lending to those QUALIFIED, the NYSE would be nowhere near where it is now.

So....SS vs my own investing??? I'll take my own investing 100 times out of 100.


Joel-De Oppresso Liber
GDP for the US last year was around $10 trillion, give or take. 1% of that would be $100 billion. Even if you took 10% out (from 10 levels of B2B costs) that's still only $1 trillion. That's not one-fourth of the current budget. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Ah yes
...and the red states don't even understand that they are sucking off the teet of blue states.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3nYNnA8A8cA/SVADW1HgraI/AAAAAAAAA Kc/jt17iXRg-nY/s400/red-state-socialism.jpg

I think you are confusing tyranny with losing.

Lulu
You seem to have a real burn on for anything government. Why shouldn't Public Employees have pensions. Employees of most large corps have pensions. What I think should be changed is that those plans should match most corporate plans which are defined contribution rather than defined benefit plans.

LuLu
I agree with most of your comments. However, young workers have been worried for over 40 years that there would not be any soc sec benefits for them. If the government would stop transferring social security funds to the general fund (they issue an IOU) the fund would be solvent. The original bill on soc sec stated that the moneys collected are to be used for the stated purposes only, to assist the people with their retirement so no US worker that retired needs to be living in poverty. Although the ratio of worker to benefit receiver is lower, if left alone, there would have been plenty for many generations to come. But, the good ol' government that says they look out for us really screwed things up, didn't they?

Granite Eagle
All of those people looking at those 401K statements are saying sure glad those Republicans did not give my Social Security to Wall Street to invest.

JMO51
No most private sector employees work for small businesses and have nothing. The rest of us have 401k's where we save our own money. Pensions are a different thing entirely. Union workers in the private sector have pensions and loo how that is working out for GM et. al.

My complaint with government workers is they make large salaries with lifetime job security and pensions on the backs of taxpayers who have none of these things. There is nothing more offensive to me than a federal employee retiring at 55 with a pension that is subsidized by the 70 year old waiting tables at Denny's, or the single mother trying to earn enough to giver her children a better future.

I believe government employees at all levels should live with the same realities the rest of us do and this includes Congress with their gold-plated healthcare and over-the-top pensions.

Lulu
Most corporations pay into employess 401Ks. Whats wrong with government workers getting the same.

sdf
You can't even spell teat.

JMO51
They do in their thrift savings plans and they also get pensions. They are entirely different things. Ask any pensioner if they'd give up their pension for a couple percent of salary in a 401k. Pensions are an excellent thing -- unfortunately the majority of Americans will never have that option but are being asked through their taxes to fund the pensions of local, state, and federal employees. I call that unfair.

Lilly in Il.
Your comment that taxes were higher under Pres. Reagan shows your age and your ignorance of history. President Reagan is famous for cutting Taxes. He was a true Conservative unlike the politicians that cal themselves conservative today. The economy was booming under Reagan there was low unemployment, jobs were secure, or so we thought at the time, in short he did what was necessary for the country to recover from the socialist Carter years, which were of course disasterus. Ever time there is a Dimocrap elected they attack the economy like it was the enemy. The one exception might be Clinton but you would have to excuse him because he had a Republican congress and the amount of damage he could cause was restricted to Presidential decrees.

I agree its time for
a teaparty and maybe more than that. I dont agree with the "Fair Tax" as currently defined. Taxes are way to high today and too high in the fair tax. Taxes need to be rolled back and the federal government needs to get out of the Social Engineering business. Taxes today are so high the term is incorrect they should be called extortion even GOD only wanted 10%

It Won't Work
These ideas like the Fair Tax plan are good ideas, except for one big problem. In the long run it will not work. Just think about how the income tax was designed during the Roosevelt years and you would know why I say that. It was simplicity in itself. But Presidents and Congresscritters simply cannot leave it alone, and over the years the income tax has become more and more complicated, and it certainly cannot be any easier then it was when the current system was created. That is the problem in the nutshell. Any new tax system will start out as simple as our current income tax system was at the start, but how can anyone believe it would stay that way.

want to see the real problem
http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=228
http://www.data360.org/pdf_graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id= 402
Summary 140 million workers 20 million in government. 20/120= 16.66% of all workers work for government guess who pays for that. In order to maintain or increase that number they have to expand or add programs.

Obama will continue to tax
Thank you for the wonderful explanation of the fair tax.
It would be fantastic if rather than paying all these ridiculous taxes, we were able to save that money instead.
Unfortunately I don't foresee this happening as long as Mr. Obama-taxnation is in the White House.
Isn't it interesting that he is lifting the sanctions on sending our American money into Cuba instead of dealing with the tax crisis here!

Heard an explanation of GM bailout
They are going into bankruptcy. Coming out with 2 parts. Part one is the profitable one. Part 2 is the one with all the debits. The majority of which are the GM pension plan. Thats what all you taxpayers are going to do fund the GM unions pension fund. Where is John Gault when you need him?

JMO51

Social Security was forced on me and I paid into it for fifty years - money that I was not able to invest in my own retiremnet. You're damned right I'm getting back as much of that money that was confiscated against my will as possible.

As for medicare, at 65 I'm forced to pay $1200 a year over and above my medical and dental insurance premiums) for that farce even though I have my own medical insurance and don't want Medicare.

Government efficiency? LOL!!

ALL
In the news today: Obama is sending his ACORN thugs to disrupt "TEA PARTY" goers.

ACORN LT.,Brian Kettenring said he really didn't know where the THUGS would go....boy, what liar he is.

If they show up, their pictures must be taken so as to identify them and see what kind of thugs Obama recruits.

LD35

"If they show up, their pictures must be taken so as to identify them and see what kind of thugs Obama recruits."

Believe me, I'l be there with professional video and digital still cameras to record tomorrow's tea party here in central massachusetts.

The results will be posted on my website and sent to the media.

a

Oh, poor a. Izzu gonna cry because Obama is not univerally loved? Here's a tissue. Touch up your makeup.

The Strategy of Manufactured Crisis.
Early on this thread,
Talent Scout posted links to information
that could open the eyes of many Americans
who really need to know what is going on.

Since then, the trolls Lilly and Jam-0
have tried very hard, and succeeded,
in turning the discussion away from those facts.
That’s what the trolls are really here for.
That’s what they get paid for.

Leave them behind.
Check out the links Talent Scout posted.
Follow them where they lead.
Discuss them if you dare.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the _strategy.html

"Fair Tax" = Socialism
Think of the "Fair Tax" as a straight line. The equation for a line is: y=mx+b.

The "x" is how much you spend.
The "m" is the tax rate.
The "b" is the "prebate."
The "y" is the total tax you actually pay.

Suppose that "we" force the congress to use this system. Who will set the tax rate (m) and prebate level (b)? Congress!

Suppose they set b=0 and m=.15 -- we have a flat tax. Not so bad.
Suppose they set b=-2000.0 and m=.15 -- we have income redistribution: socialism.

Each month every person in the US would get a check from the government for 2000/12 dollars. Every person would pay a 15% sales tax.

What will a bunch of socialists actually do with a system like this? The will make the prebate very large (b=-48000.0) which will produce a massive income redistribution scheme.

Look at this simple equation and think.

If we have y = 0.15x-48000, this means that every person over 18 would get a $4,000.00 check each month from the government!

If you can't follow the math, get some help. The "Fair Tax" is socialism. I can't believe the socialists didn't think of it, or maybe they did.

a you havent a clue
its the congress that spends money there are 525 representatives they are ALL guilty porkers. Democrats, Republicans, and Independent's all need to get the message Stop the spending Stop the Extortion

a
"I just find it humorous that this is being portrayed as a non-partisan event with scores of democrat and independent voters showing up."

I'm an independent voter and I'm showing up.

But who gives a crap? You act as if Obama and his crowd are totally honest and fair and above reproach. BS. Every other time Obama opens his mouth, he lies.

You go ahead and put up with it if you love him that much. But I'm sick and tired of politicians campaigning one way and then sticking it to us when they get into office. This unbelievably asinine spending and taxing spree is the last straw for me.


Chuck hates free global markets
"They did not pay income taxes, which were prohibited by the Constitution. They did not pay export taxes, which also were prohibited by the Constitution. But they did tax imports."

Why do you hate the Free Market chuck?

TEA Party in Friendswood TX
At 1700 hours CST, I'll be attending a TEA Party in Friendswood TX (south of Houston).

I won't be there to protest taxes so much as to protest the current socialist/federal government.

I'm not worried that ACORN thugs will start any trouble; I am worried that the DHS Memo about "right wing extremists" will be "reasonable suspicion" for law enforcement to disrupt and silence any dissent.

Obama has tried to stifle the voices of the right since he was nominated. He and his surrogates attacked Rush Limbaugh for voicing dissent. Obama belittled Sean Hannity for DARING to criticize "The One". Now DHS has officially declared that anyone to the right of John McCain might be a "extremist".

Hey, we've got the socialists right where we want them: scared!

On A Few Ideas
I agree with Chuck. We are overtaxed and over-regulated. What bothers me is that this issue was never addressed during the Bush years and it appears hypocritical to protest it now. The same structural problems still exist withing our federal government and one of the few candidates who attacked them head on was Ron Paul and he was marginalized by the party. The timing of this protest is definitely suspect.

a
I doubt Rush said those exact words since you Socialist voters tend to lie a little bit.

President Bush wouldn't have waited 5 days like Jug Ears. And the Socialist State run Media would most certainly acused him of murdering innocents.

Reply to your earlier response, Obama's LT did say: "we will be out but we don't know where"
One day before "we will be out" and he says we don't know where??? c'mon you can do better than that.

IS SECCESSION THE FINAL OPTION?

.....The Governor of my State (RICK PERRY) has called the Federal Government oppressive and says he is going to hold them to the Tenth Amendment ...

.....Can talk of succession be far behind? ...will the power of the Federal Government be brought to bear to force TEXAS back into line? .....

.....To paraphrase LESLIE HOWARD in GONE WITH THE WIND ..."if TEXAS votes to secceed I will stand with her" .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc you have it backward
The new government has secede from the constitution to create the United Socialist States of America its not 1984 but close. How can I cross all that indian territory to get to Texas? How do I get to the Alamo?

Nothing Fair about Fair Tax
The only real advantage of it is that it reduces administrative pass through costs on companies having to constantly keep up with the tax code. It still leans heavily on end-consumers and still engages in wealth redistribution utilizing the tax code. Readjusting the means of obtaining the tax doesn't change the fact we're still having 30%+ of our annual incomes stolen to pay for things that have no business existing.

America should only function on excise taxes and universal (ie, not specified by industry or nation) tarriffs. Fair Tax just replaces our income tax with a 30% sales tax (sorry, if I spend $130 for a $100 item, that's a 30% tax) and still means I need to pay our Government a tribute for the privelege of engaging in private commerce.

Getting rid of the IRS is a good start. What we need to replace it with is nothing, just start cutting all the programs that can't be paid with the taxes our government already collects that don't originate with incomes.

a

Forgive my hyperbole, but Obama lied about taking public campaign financing after agreeing to do it if McCain did and therefore screwed McCain, helied about lobbyists in his administration, lied about raising taxes on anyone making less than $250,000, lied about getting out of Iraq, lied about Kennedy bringing his father from Kenya, he lied about being born in Hawaii (there is no record of him being born in any hospital in Hawaii and he refuses to turn over his birth certificate), he lied about not using the Patriot Act, He lied about the stimulus bill having no pork ("This stimulus bill has no pork and not a single earmark.") Want more? I can give you much more, but there's a 2000 character limit.

How many times do you liberals have to be lied to before you don't trust someone? Or is it that honesty doesn't apply to you liberals? Funny I don't hear the chant "Obama lied and more Americans died!"

Taxation
Taxation leads to slavery BUT all who renounce being taxed (as I do) must be ready to take on the responsibility to chart one's destiny that includes providing for one's family with all the necessities of life, including health care, food, shelter, education, and security (both physical and financial). Unfortunately, 98% of people don't have the fortitude to face up to that challenge.
Certainly we must get rid of this bloated, useless, and even harmful government bureaucracy but we must be realistic that we will have to take up the slack in our lives to compensate for the nanny state’s dole provided in an insanely inefficient, wasteful, and humiliating manner. The answer lies in an extra lean government that focuses on delivery of optimal services versus the one we have now that just wants to control all aspects of citizens’ lives with mediocre services (if any).

"Fair Tax" = Socialism
Harold States:

"Fair Tax" = Socialism

Harold, your assumpions are that the our in-glorious Congress will tinker with the FAIR TAX as it stands with the Rate and the PREBATE. Us Fair tax supporters beleive that is a very real possibility, however; in the very next election cycle the "opponents" to those who did tinker with the Rate or Prepate level, would have one hell of a election issue, against the imcumbant. This should force our Congress to be more fiscally sound. My advice is read the books.

On another topic--The citizens are used to government providing service without a doubt and this has to be paid for through some form of taxation. The Fair Tax has nothing to say about how the taxes are spent. That is a different argument.The FAIR TAX is transparent and therefore easy to understand not like our present tax codes it wants to replace.

Another topic--This tread states it will cause vast sums to accumulate to the wealthy. This is wrong. Even the trust and foundations must spend the money they receive and then it will be taxed when spent. All the heirs of vast sums will spend it somehow and then it is taxed. If you read the books, visit the web site, you will see it is a no-brainer. The only ones who are against it are those who are receiving tax breaks now, tax attorneys and tax preparers, lobbies, and Congressmen. If you always ask anyone running for ANY office in your local they will sooner or later tell the higher ups in the party that they are getting more and more talk about the FAIR TAX, this is the way grass root ideas start and build. Beleive me it is building and the more who talk about it with their local politicians the quicker it will come. It is not Republican or a Democrate. It is just a good IDEA..

JMO51
Are you just dense or are you just a liberal? Sorry. I repeat myself. You keep saying over and over that conservatives are hypocrites for partaking in SS and Medicare despite being told numerous times that the money is stolen from us (and you) under the weight of govmint regulation all through our productive working lives. So it is not a matter of getting what we can from the system, it is getting back all that we can of what was forcibly taken from us. Perhaps you don't worry so much about being productive or taking care of you family with the sweat of your labors? You like to pay the "man"?

If I had all of the money I've paid in taxes, SS, FICA, etc., I wouldn't need any of those programs. But the pols want you to be subservient to them - it's what gives them their power. Apparently that's too tough a concept for you.

And as far as entitlements - where is any of that outlined in the Constitution? And don't feed me the general welfare cr@ppola cuz there's no way the Framers even considered anything like today's socialism entitlements.

If you had any brains you'd be asking yourself: if this is so good why does Congress keep themselves out of these programs and in completely different ones?

But when you're dense you can only see as far as the tip of your nose and spew again and again "libs good, cons bad" to explain everything. You probably hate Reagan but he once said the worst words you ever want to hear are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". And he was right.

One day perhaps you libdolts will realize government is the problem not the solution. we may differ on any other solution but more govmint definitely ain't it. I won't hold my breath for that though.

You guys a re pathetic. Wake up.

bobbit
You make good points, but I hate Reagan because he never made good on any of his promises (no, he didn't lower taxes, just fiddled with tax brackets and hiked our social security taxes, gas taxes, etc) and took credit for Carter initiated dregulation without putting forward any of his own.

But, yes, I agree with taking as much as I can from these "programs" because I'm just recovering stolen money. Our police forces don't try to give stolen property back to the guy that broke into your house when you complain about the thief. I'd just rather not have my property stolen in the first place.

I guess government is just special beacause it's a professional thief hired by a voting majority of the population.

Transaction tax----------Please no------
Joel-De Oppresso Liber

Sir your transaction tax would tax the same thing over and over and over again and again.

Transaction tax----------Please no------
Joel-De Oppresso Liber

Sir it would also not tax "services" hardly at all..

true reform
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the only ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects it, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
You cannot convince a person or corporation to start a new business or expand an existing business, increase jobs, and hire new employees, when you tax away the capitol he is using to operate his PRESENT business
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.

TEA-BAGGER'S FISCAL POLICY:

SPENDING $1 trillion US tax dollars to building roads, bridges, factories and to provide health care, education and security for the people of Iraq is "Sound economic policy".

Doing the same for the people of the USA is "socialism".

Insane wackos
Prohibition was the “Idiocy of the Twentieth Century”.

Obama Administration members are proposing the “Insanity of the Twenty-First Century”: Eliminating oil, natural gas, and coal, spending $100 trillion of monopoly money to shoot tons of pollution into the upper atmosphere, to cool a planet that has been cooling for a decade. Coal is required to make steel for rockets.

Launching thousands of rockets will add thousands of cubic miles of rocket exhaust to the atmosphere, to dump tons of pollution into the atmosphere, with thousands of rockets falling back to earth and igniting fires, which will burn up thousands of cubic miles of oxygen which we breathe.

Winds will move the pollution around Earth. How many times will they have to launch thousands of rockets to dump tons of pollution, start many fires, burn many cubic miles of oxygen, until the planet is covered? This brings up the other question: Since none of the other countries has Obama voters, would they want their atmospheres polluted?

How soon will the pollution fall to earth and turn the air into toxic gas which kills everybody that inhales it?

Can’t the Messiah make the planet perfect with a gesture?

sdf
tell ya what meat. How about the red states stop growing food and raising beef for y'all in the blue states? Please tell me what exactly the blue states produce again?

Chuck
Just wondering, will you be at one of the tea parties, and if so which one?

I'll be at the Denver tea party, along with many other angry folks tired of the new taxes our administration is and will incorporate.

Just a question
If I'm a racist for disiagreeing with and not liking the Obamessiah... What would that make liberals for the last 8 years?


Please liberals answer this.....

Reducing the FairTax Rate
I strongly support the FairTax. With the dramatic shift of power away from politicians and lobbyists that its implementation would bring, "we the people" would have greater influence, I think, on the Congress as they decide each session what the appropriate retail consumption tax rate should be.

I think the pressure on the consumption tax rate would be downward.

Remember, the rate proposed as an initial rate under the first implementation of the FairTax is simply reflective of a prediction about what is required of it to bring in the same revenue as is currently collected.

Visibility of the consumption tax, plus the inability of the politicians and their lobbyist handlers to manipulate the current income tax code (abolished), should result in action to reduce spending in order to reduce the consumption tax rate (and vice versa), I think.

Reply to bobbit in Ca
Bobbit old buddy, you are wasting your time trying to educate JMO51. He is a die-hard hater who loves Socialism and the promise that Obama made to them: "We are going to take from those who produce more than they deserve and give it those who do no work." LBJ started this mess with his so-called Great Society programs that started the national movement of socialism. So far, the so-called "war on poverty" has spent in excess of 8 trillion dollars, and in the process, it has destroyed families, an educational system, and the work ethic in some families that has now spanned 4 generations. The entitlement mentality has been spawned and nurtured, and all a person has to do to get the votes of these deadbeats is to promise to give them even more by contributing little or nothing to society. The Democrats have been doing this since the days of FDR, and of course, with the coming of JFK and then LBJ, the democrats have had the deadbeat vote ever since. And, this is why Obama and the other communists who now run our government are so gung ho about pushing the Illegal Immigrant Bill that will make another 30 to 40 million illegals become eligible to vote, and that is why we are spending about 50 billion a year giving illegals health care, welfare, food stamps, educations, and other benefits that our homegrown deadbeats were already getting. The Dems want Absolute Power for the long term, and they are using the Taxes that they forcibly seize from hardworking Americans, business owners and property owners. Our entire system of Free Enterprise and Freedom is under attack.

Take Back the Government!

Tell Congress to STOP the Spending
It's time to tell Congress we've had enough.

Folllow the link and send your members of Congress a personalized message telling them to STOP the Spending!

http://www.conservativeoutpost.com/campaign/cta/stop_spendi ng

Why its all good for us
To place everyone in debt through extortion.

quote:


Why Supplanting the Dollar Would Be Good for America
By Justin Fox Thursday, Apr. 09, 2009

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1890380-1, 00.html

I had to laugh at Obama
today when he said,when talking about the tea parties, "tell them to calm down we have it under control." RIGHT!!!!

TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA TEA
The Liberal people I know are saying this movement is funded and organized by "Rich People"...

They are angry and frustrated that we just do not go along by the nose with the other OBAMA SHEEPLINGS

REBEL, PAY YOUR TAXES, BUT REBEL BY CHANGING THE TAX LAWS AND LET US KICK THE REPRESENTATIVES THAT OPPOSE US

OUT INTO THE MUDDY DITCH THEY CRAWLED UP FROM!

ROWDY BOOTS

NEW LIBERAL FANTASY: "I AM FAIR"
Dear Obama Administration:

Please take all of my money so I can feel better about being myself.

I am sooo upset to actually be making a living.

I am really ready to concede that it is better to be poor and righteous rather then rich and A BIG MEANY.

UH...ACTUALLY, I GAVE MORE MONEY TO CHARITIES THE BLOW-HARD BIDEN.

I AM WELL LIKED WHEREEVER I GO.

OOPS! MY MISTAKE...I AM REALLY A BAD BAD PERSON SO MAKING MORE MONEY THEN MOST PEOPLE.

PLEASE HELP ME OBAMA...I AM READY TO BE HEALED.

CAN YOU DIRECT ME TO THE GLOBAL WARMTH?

I DON'T SEEM TO BE GETTING MUCH WARMTH FROM YOUR ADMINISTRATION.

ROWDY BOOTS

It's Tea Time
Heard today that the brown coats (a.k.a. Acorn) will be out tomorrow trying to stir up trouble as they are trying to make this grass roots movement appear radical. I will be out there, even though this is out of my comfort zone, but it's time to get out and let the numbers speak for themselves. I really do think it's a show of unity among all people who are fed up with what's going on in Washington. Now we've seen the change that Obama talked about and that is what is radical.

Ditto Susan and Rowdy
What the leftist thugs out there who belong to ACORN and other Anti-American terrorists ought to understand is that the So-Called Rich are the ones funding them. ACORN and other Left Wing Subversive groups just got 4 billion in so called Stimulus Money from the Obama Administration to fund Their So-Called Volunteers who are being paid by our Tax Dollars to go out and Terrorize folks and to Register Illegal Democrat Voters. The Obama Admininstration and the Liberal Congress is using our Tax Dollars to Buy Power and they pay these Terrorist Groups such as ACORN with the monies they extract from hardworking Americans, Land Owners and From the Greedy Rich.

We need to have Anti-ACORN protests and demand that our government stop taking our tax dollars to fund Terrorists. These ACORN thugs are lazy, non-working, welfare deadbeats for the most part, and they are able to Organize Volunteers who are being paid With Our Tax Dollars to show up and Protest. Do not be intimidated by these Thugs if they show up at a Tea Party, and be sure and have your own video cameras rolling since one of the tactics these Terrorist ACORNers use is to incite riots, and then claim the other side did it. Get out in large numbers that outnumber the Paid ACORN Thugs, and they will keep their cowardly mouths shut. Remember that every Terroist that runs in Gangs such as the ACORN thugs, are all cowards and will never challenge groups that outnumber them. Gangstas and Thugs such as what ACORN recruits using our taxdollars are all Deadbeats and Cowards. That is all you need to remember. Stand tall and be counted Patriots.

It must be a real beach...
to be so Lobamamized.....

LuLu...


LuLu
Location: VA
Reply # 49
Date: Apr 14, 2009 - 9:33 AM EST JMO51
why do you assume I'm a republican. I notice on this site -- the liberals always assume everone is old, evangelical Christian, white, and Republican.

I'm Caucasian but the rest...

I'm not a Republican I'm a pissed off taxpayer who is sick to death of working only to have most of my income taken through taxes and fees at every level of government to pay for the lazy non-taxpayers and corrupt politicians. I'm mad as heck.

~~~~

YES ! YOU ARE MY VOICE!

I could not agree with you more !

I used to agree with 'republicrans', but when they became rinos, I would happily drown every one of them.

I am not a republican, I AM A CONSERVATIVE !




'Fair' Tax? Huckabee? Get a clue Chuck!
The main thing that needs to be done is to CUT GOVT. Who wants a 'fair' tax of 20-30%? Sure, it'd be an improvement IF the income tax were repealed (giving ANOTHER taxing power to govt w/o taking other taxing powers away is insane), but it wouldn't change the fact that we pay WAY too much in taxes already.


Didja see that twunt Roesgen?
The fatuous twit from CNN went on and on about the parties being driven by "right wing news outlet" Fox and all but claimed they were financed by billionaires.

I guess billionaires are OK when they fund the DemonRAT Underworld, Daily Kos or MoveOn.org? I guess "Big Daddy Warbucks" Soros is the "good kind" of billionaire?

The idea that so many people could be motivated to react so strongly to the debacle the Democrats got us all into STARTING with the CRA back in 1977 with good ol' Jimma Cotta and his merry band of economic nitwits right up to the expansion of its moronic provisions by Clinton aided and abetted by Janet "dykeminister" Reno is alien to them?

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria !!

Oh, and Huckabee is HORRIBLE.
The guy is a socialist fraud!

Stop giving him props, Chuck!


The real NRA...the frauds!
I can think of a multitude of reasons not to join the NRA. One among the top reasons, is that they are not a '2nd Amendment Rights' organization. The NRA has been behind most of the gun control legislation.

Wow, that's incredible and hard to believe you say. Surely that man must be nuts. Well, if you enjoy firearms history like I do, please do some reading.

The NRA has 'covertly' worked in the past to take away 2nd Amendment Rights. That's a cold hard fact.

The NRA helped craft the 1934 NFA act, the 1968 Gun Control Act just to name a few. These laws help restrict the 2nd Amendment.

The NRA tried unsuccessfully to scuttle a rare 2nd Amendment victory -- U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled that D.C.’s gun ban violates the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


http://www.patriotpages.net/nrafraud.htm

There was ONE MAN courageous enough
...to--during the GOP debates--propose ELIMINATING the IRS and income tax: RON PAUL!

We saw how most 'conservatives' treated HIM, didn't we?

The idiots chose Big Govt 'Conservatives' like McCain, Romney, and Huckabee!




Re: The real NRA...the frauds!
I do not think that that is true. and here's why, the 1968 Gun Control Act was put in as a safty messure if you would read it you would see.

It limmits the moving of arms across boarders (exept by licenced manufacurers) as to prevent terriorist and such be able to bring wepons cashes with them every time they move or have commited a crime.

Any one who has commited a federal offense can't own or opperate a fire arm. this is fair because if a cop killer or murderer is living down the street I wouldn't want to know they are allowed to have guns.

Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States. once again that 9-11 terriorists, etc.

Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions. to be discharged you have to have F*^#$D up pretty bad do be dishournerable discharged.

check your facts



July 4th
The next tea party Im hearing will be on the 4th of july. If you havent heard ask around about it. I agree ACORN is nothing but thugs, and I heard that they get paid with our tax dollars. Its outrageous. Something else with this group is their participation next year in the census. I think that needs to be protested about as well.
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