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Tuesday, December 16, 2008
Chuck Norris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Atheists' National Holiday?
by Chuck Norris
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Atheists from England to the West Coast of America are stepping up their efforts this year to make a bigger antagonistic splash on the Christmas scene. From London and Washington, D.C., buses to Colorado billboards, skeptics are skewering religions with little respect to the adherents of the religions.

At the forefront is a group's government-sanctioned posting of a sign by a Nativity scene in the Capitol of Washington state (and now also in Wisconsin and Illinois): "At this season of THE WINTER SOLSTICE may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

I am a patriot, and I believe that atheists are free to believe, speak and post whatever they want. This is America, and that's their First Amendment right. But to do so with harassment and hatred under the guise of free speech is despicable. An anti-religious poster filled with spite is in no way equal to a religious symbol, such as a Nativity scene. Where are the political correctness police when religious followers are the victims?

If such words were written against any social minority group, protests would be ubiquitous. But anti-religious bigotry is in vogue these days. Still, there is absolutely no justification for these atheists' written revile. And if they want to keep using hate-filled language against theists -- particularly Christians -- then they shouldn't be surprised when they meet up with a yuletide (written) roundhouse kick.

Anyone can spew disdain for religion, but is that what America's Founders created our rights for? Just because they post such verbal vomit, does that demonstrate intellectual superiority or the type of moral decency our Founders hoped we would perpetuate?

What profit would there be if I posted a taunt that atheists had no vital part in the founding of our country? As Benjamin Franklin noted in his 1787 pamphlet for those in Europe thinking of relocating to America: "To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated but respected and practiced. Atheism is unknown there."

What profit would there be if I posted a claim that atheists are un-American because they try to suppress theists' freedom of religion by the false notion of separation of church and state?

What profit would there be if I posted the accusation that atheists are imprudent because they exhaust too much time trying to convince everyone else of the absence of a being who doesn't exist?

What profit would there be if I posted a retort that atheists are igmos because they try to replace Christmas with winter solstice celebrations, which are ancient pagan festivals entrenched in polytheistic religions?

What profit would there be if I posted that atheism hides behind a false pretense that it is scientific when eminent scientist Paul Davies -- the renowned British-born physicist, agnostic and professor of cosmology, quantum field theory and astrobiology -- once spoke against the certainty of atheism to Time magazine (in the column "Science, God, and Man"): "Agnosticism -- reserving judgment about divine purpose -- remains as defensible as ever, but atheism -- the confident denial of divine purpose -- becomes trickier. If you admit that we can't peer behind a curtain, how can you be sure there's nothing there?"

What profit would there be if I posted that atheists are totally blind to the pristine beauty and ordered complexity of creation, so they cannot see the hand of a Creator? As the Bible pointed out 2,000 years ago, "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

What profit would there be if I posted the fact that atheists denigrate every religion and prayer that ever has been offered? To say God doesn't exist is to say every religious leader in every age was delusional at best. And it also is to say that not one prayer on any continent in any era of human history has been answered. That premise alone rules atheism preposterous and foolish.

Finally, what profit would there be if I posted that I agree with my friend Mike Huckabee, who said on his book tour via Fox News that atheists shouldn't be fighting for a holiday in December when they already have a holiday: April Fools' Day (a holiday also grounded in sacred Scripture, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no god'")?

We all know I would be labeled as an extremist, irrational and a bigot if I posted any of the preceding ideas. Yet atheists do and get away with First Amendment murder.

I'd like to remind our nation that it was only a short time ago when Ronald Reagan freely spoke for the majority by explicitly and passionately conveying belief in Jesus Christ during his presidential Christmas addresses. Compare the message in his Dec. 23, 1981, speech with that of the present day, when the very term "Christmas" is being erased from every corner of culture.

As long as different displays line the corridors of Washington state's Capitol like Christmas potpourri, let me posit this last idea as a final pre-Christmas posting. At the base of the bust of George Washington (which stands between the atheists' winter solstice sign and the Nativity scene in the Washington state Capitol), I suggest the posting of one more sign, which would contain the wisdom from George Washington's farewell address: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

(Note: In the spirit of Christmas, Chuck is giving away a free chapter of his current New York Times best-seller, "Black Belt Patriotism."

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I understand
that the new building or tour site or whatever it is (where Harry Reid won't get so much as a whiff of the 'great unwashed') in Washington doesn't have our national motto "In God We Trust" anywhere on it, though it does have "E Pluribus Unum".

Will the self-anointed ones next go after Moses and everything else that references Scripture on or in the public buildings of Washington?

Love, ya, Chuck! :) Keep those well-written roundhouse kicks, Yuletide and otherwise, coming!


So Brave
These atheists consider themselves so brave and brazen for disgracing Christian symbols...why don't they head into a local mosque and start posting their displays and propaganda?

Do they only believe there is no Christian god? Or do they just enjoying targeting groups that pose no risk or danger?

NOT YOU TOO MR. NORRIS
Mr. Norris, If an insignificant sign by a marginalized minority (albeit atheists) is your biggest critisism concerning Christmas, perhaps your Christian fervor should migrate from your sleeve to your heart. Christ's gift to us (yes, I am a Christian) has played second fiddle to greed, profit, and out of control consumerism for years.

And the continual claim that Christians are discriminated against in a land in which 85 percent of the population are self identified Christians would be laughable if not so absurd.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

Happy Festivus, everyone!
You are a good enough actor to convince me you had a thicker skin and aren't so quick to play the victim card.

Ummm
You do realize that our motto was originally "E Pluribus Unum" (one out of many) before it was changed to "In God We Trust", right?

Just like "Under God" was added to the Pledge in the 50s and was not originally in the Pledge.

As Americans and as Christians it is important for us to believe in Freedom of Religion and the separation of church and state.

Atheists can have their displays and their holidays if they want to. Heck, they can evangelize their atheism if they want to.

Umm Chuck, "But to do so with harassment and hatred under the guise of free speech is despicable."....isn't this what you and your ilk do to gay people all the time?


Conflicted natures
While I agree with Darice's comments about Christmas taking a..."second fiddle to greed, profit, and out of control consumerism for years", I take issue with his other comments castigating Mr. Norris. The evidence supports both marginalization and increased overt hatred (both institutional and personal)of anything involving Christianity. To trivialize Chuck's comments as not being from the heart presumes that Darice knows Mr. Norris' heart and passion. I see the marginalization and hatred towards anything Christian as fulfillment of Christ's own words to his disciples in Matthew 24 and Paul's letter in 2 Timothy 3.

Darice is misinformed as well about discrimination in the US being laughable. A review of the ACLJ's website (ACLJ.org)shows an increasing number of Christian discrimination cases they defend or bring before both state and federal courts on behalf of Christians. (Prayer at the U.S. Naval Academy, Ill. pharmacists being forced to give "morning after" pills in violation of their Christian beliefs and morals, Washington State discrimination against student of faith by denying him a scholarship, etc, etc)

This obviously does not compare to persecution, abuse and outright murders going on in other countries against men and women professing faith in Christ, (http://www.persecution.com/), but it convincingly points to a troubling trend in the US. A trend, Mr. Norris is warning us about. Not from the sleeve but from the heart.

By the way, I thought the better closing should read JESUS ROCKS. After all didn't Jesus himself say something about that in Matthew 12:30?

Rightguard290


Never knew Norris was a fundamentalist
How about we analyse this sensibly? When an atheist says "there are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell", exactly which part of this can be confidently said to be untrue? Which part of this statement contradicts solid evidence? Indeed what evidence is there at all that gods, devils and angels are any more likely to exist than the tooth fairy or Santa Claus? Would Chuck Norris accuse somebody of "harassment, hatred" and "spite" if they chose not to believe in Apollo, Zeus or Thor? Does Chuck Norris confess to being a "bigot" because he rejects the existence of unicorns? Theists love to dodge questions like this but the questions must be confronted. If theists want atheists to take them seriously then they must be prepared to engage in a serious, intellectually honest conversation.

Now let me answer your "what profit" challenges one by one.

"What profit would there be if I posted a taunt that atheists had no vital part in the founding of our country?"

Well, in fact whether or not atheists had a vital part in the founding of the USA makes no difference to the truth value of atheism v. theism. As it happens, however, one Thomas Jefferson had a few things to say on the matter, including: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

part 2
"What profit would there be if I posted the accusation that atheists are imprudent because they exhaust too much time trying to convince everyone else of the absence of a being who doesn't exist?"

Well, theists are at least as guilty of proselytising as atheists. Ask yourself how many atheists have ever knocked on your door compared to, say, Mormons. And at least the atheists have reason on their side: trying to convince somebody to reject a hypothesis for which there is no evidence is surely more noble than trying to convince somebody to accept it despite the lack of evidence.

You cited one quote from one scientist. I could quote many somewhat more prominent scientists such as Darwin, Einstein, Hawking and Dawkins, but it makes no difference: even if every scientist on the planet was a devout theist, it would not logically follow that theism must be true. Remember there was once a time when every scientist on the planet believed the Earth was flat.

"What profit would there be if I posted that atheists are totally blind to the pristine beauty and ordered complexity of creation, so they cannot see the hand of a Creator?"

Now you're getting silly. Scientists are especially aware of the beauty and complexity of life (it is often the reason they become scientists in the first place), and scientists know perfectly well that its explanation lies in Darwinian natural selection. There isn't a single prominent biologist on Earth who rejects natural selection. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. It is a scientific fact, and to doubt it is tantamount to doubting gravity or electromagnetism. Anybody in the 21st century seriously believing in Creationism is either shockingly ignorant or tragically deluded.

part 3
"And it also is to say that not one prayer on any continent in any era of human history has been answered. That premise alone rules atheism preposterous and foolish."

No atheist that I've ever met has said that. By plain probability, it is almost certain that some prayers have been fulfilled, and thus have the appearance of being "answered". What has never happened, however, is the power of prayer being systematically proven, under appropriate scientific testing conditions, to have any statistically significant effect over and above pure chance.

You appear to have a very blinkered view on what most atheists are about. There is nothing inherently hostile about atheism as a world view; it is simply the rejection of claims for which there exists no evidence. Chuck Norris is an atheist with respect to Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, ad infinitum. Atheists simply go one god further.

85 percent
Re: Darice's percent

I think just claiming t be Christian doesn't a Christian make one. In fact lots of folks claim to be Christian and believe the fallacy that if they just live a good life and be kind towards others, they'll make it to Heaven! The proof of a person's faith is acknowledgment of their need for a savior and accepting his perfect sacrifice on the cross. What comes from that trust and faith in Christ is Love for God and Love for others.

Rightguard 290

THOMAS, ALLOW ME TO RESPOND.
I never meant to imply that I knew Mr. Norris's heart. He may very well be a devout Christian. I consider him to be a fine man whom I admire very much, but my analysis of his trivial concerns regarding Christianity are rooted in logic.

But I'll deal with your issue. For every lawsuit filed by Christians, an (take your pick) atheist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, agnostic, etc... could file 100. Take the case in Washington. Everyone passed by the nativity scene daily and a peep wasn't heard. But as soon as the atheist sign was erected, all hell broke loose. Now honestly, who is being discriminated against here.

Our Judeo-Christian prevalence is reflected in the election of our politicians who view the dismissal of Judeo-Christian philosophy as political suicide. It's further reinforced by an inability to drive half a mile in any residential area without passing a church affiliated with the Christian faith. As a nation, our Christian adherence is magnified by the likes of T. D. Jakes, Rick Warren, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Jesse Jackson, etc... Maybe you can name politicians clamoring for support from Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Muslim Imams, or Buddist monks.

Finally, in no way am I defending any other religion. I'm simply secure enough in my Christianity to realize that Christians are treated extremely well in this country.

JESUS ROCKS

OLBERMANN ROLLS.

rhe Michael and etc. situation
The realization that Michael on KY is a homosexual atheist stuns no one.

Michael and others like hm hold atheism dear to their hearts. It provides an excuse for their deviant behaviors.

Michal never hesitates to bash Christians, for him they are easy pickings. tolerant, respectful people.

Christians however fail to give Michael what he wants. Christians pray for Michael to find his way, Michael wants Christians to view faith in the context of his own moral relativity.

Unless Christians accept the moral relativism he (and his ilk) define, then Christians become the strawman for all of Michaels hatreds to those who will not legitimize his deviant behavior. Sad. But consistent with atheism.

Abraham Lincoln said an excellent quote:

"I can see how it might be possible for a man to look upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look into the heavens and say there is no God."

Learn Michael.

Show me the Evidence
Blair

You made the of statement that I could not let go of. "Now you're getting silly. Scientists are especially aware of the beauty and complexity of life (it is often the reason they become scientists in the first place), and scientists know perfectly well that its explanation lies in Darwinian natural selection. There isn't a single prominent biologist on Earth who rejects natural selection. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. It is a scientific fact, and to doubt it is tantamount to doubting gravity or electromagnetism."

Sir, when did a "THEORY" become fact? For if you believe in Darwinian natural selection, then you sir have more faith than 50% or more of those who call themselves Christians. Without scientific fact to back up that statement, sir you are believing in the relion of Humanisum, which makes you a relious person.

I cannot show you any scientific fact that there is a God, a devil, angels, heaven and a hell. I take it on Faith, that is what seperates you and I from each other, you want facts I take it on faith. But to date there has not been one single bit of proof that man has evolved for any other creature other than himself. A monkey is a monkey, a whale is a whale, one can not change to become something else entirely different with out becoming exentced. (pardon for the misspelling)

I believe you do have the right to say and write (within the laws) almost anything you would like when ever you like.

A World Without Religion...

The intellectual circles of Europe in the nineteenth century experienced the exhilaration and pride of an aggressive rationalism which trusted in the guiding and saving strength of man's reason. Unaided by divine revelation, and spurning any superstitious faith in God, human intellect could answer the ultimate questions of life and discover the solution to our enduring social problems.

The French Revolution had enthroned the goddess of Reason. Hegel, who had once admired the French Revolution, taught that the culmination of the progress inherent in history would be the "world-mind" - the Absolute.

Feuerbach turned Hegel on his head by teaching that history is the development of matter, not mind (or idea). According to him religion is simply the "dream of the human mind."

Karl Marx was in turn influenced by Feuerbach and advocated an enforced socialism which banished God from consideration. Religion was no better than "the opiate of the masses." Such delusions needed to be eliminated in favor of a rational world where men solve their problems without "Outside" intervention.

Such hostility to religious faith was given practical implementation by the Russian Revolution of 1917. Russia would become history's guinea pig for scientific socialism. The last religious services celebrated within the walls of the Kremlin were conducted in October, 1917.

In 1990 from the political bastion of atheism Mr. Gorbachev contended that "The Soviet Union is suffering from a spiritual decline." Religion could be oppressed, but not vanquished. The spiritual nature and longings of man cannot be removed, even within the most hostile anti-religious political regime of history.

continued on blog...

Darice
I strongly encourage and invite you to read David Limbaugh's book "Persecution". If you're intellectually honest, I can guarantee your opinion will change 180 degrees.

Sigh
Musicman:

I stated that anybody rejecting natural selection was either shockingly ignorant or tragically deluded. You belong in the former category. Take a look at this:

http://www.interacademies.net/Object.File/Master/6/150/Evol ution%20statement.pdf


AWESOME article Mr. Norris!!!!
One of the best rationales against atheist I've seen compiled! Look above that atheists like Blair have nothing to actually say about the content of the column. And your idea, Chuck, about posting sign at Washington bust base is the PERFECT quote. Summarizes everything perfectly!

Looks like atheist e-thugs out in droves
Great to see Chuck's article bring out the atheists on this blog. But why aren't they actually saying anything critical about the content of the column? Because they CAN'T! Just atheist rabbit trails everywhere! LOL!

Chuck
"...As long as different displays line the corridors of Washington state's Capitol like Christmas potpourri,..."

Here is the key chuckie. If you shove religion into politics expect to have your feelings bruised. It is no longer religion at this point but politics. I know you are an actor but even you have to realise that in the real, rough and tumble political world there will be bruised "feelings" and even bodies sadly. So please stop whining and join the fray or get out of the political world. Have a happy holiday season.

Great LINKS at Norris WND version!
Check out LINKS at EXCLUSIVE version of same Norris column at World Net Daily http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=83623

FANTASTIC article today Chuck! One of the best I've read on the subject!

A violation of CHURCH vs. STATE??
Check out column that settles real issue between the so-called separation of Church and State... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php/index.php?pageId=81 804

BLAIR...
Regarding your comments, "Anybody in the 21st century seriously believing in Creationism is either shockingly ignorant or tragically deluded."

Obviously you missed Norris' comment on Paul Davies, who of course must be "ignorant or deluded" according to you amazing intellect! LOL! And you're the professor of ... ? Dribble?? LOL!

Again Norris makes an excellent point, "What profit would there be if I posted that atheism hides behind a false pretense that it is scientific when eminent scientist Paul Davies -- the renowned British-born physicist, agnostic and professor of cosmology, quantum field theory and astrobiology -- once spoke against the certainty of atheism to Time magazine (in the column "Science, God, and Man"): "Agnosticism -- reserving judgment about divine purpose -- remains as defensible as ever, but atheism -- the confident denial of divine purpose -- becomes trickier. If you admit that we can't peer behind a curtain, how can you be sure there's nothing there?"


Dawkins is a panty waste!
Dawkins is so over-rated! THe man is a evolutionary biologist, not a cosmologist, astrophysicist, etc. He doesn't know squat about the universe and its orgins. He has merely extrapolated his bias upon his understanding of natural selection and hyper-imposed them upon the origins of the universe. Evolution does not apply to strings and dark matter!! When are skeptics going to confess to Dawkins' folly??

Blair...your folly follows EVERY point..
Your responses overlook or support nearly every point Norris makes!

(1) "Would Chuck Norris accuse somebody of "harassment, hatred" and "spite" if they chose not to believe in Apollo, Zeus or Thor? Does Chuck Norris confess to being a "bigot" because he rejects the existence of unicorns?"

What pathetic comments. You completely neglected the bigotry in the atheist winter solstice sign that Chuck addressed, "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." Chuck said an atheist or anyone else is free to believe whatever they want.

(2) "What profit would there be if I posted a taunt that atheists had no vital part in the founding of our country?"

Thanks for admitting you agree. As John Adams said, "our republic was intended for nothing but a moral and religious people."

(3) "What profit would there be if I posted the accusation that atheists are imprudent because they exhaust too much time trying to convince everyone else of the absence of a being who doesn't exist?"

Your comment, "Well, theists are at least as guilty of proselytising as atheists." Norris isn't talking about proselytizing, but stupidity in atheists spending time convincing others that God doesn't exist when he doesn't exist!


Part 2 REBUTTAL to Blair...
(4) Your comments, "There isn't a single prominent biologist on Earth who rejects natural selection. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. It is a scientific fact, and to doubt it is tantamount to doubting gravity or electromagnetism. Anybody in the 21st century seriously believing in Creationism is either shockingly ignorant or tragically deluded."

Utterly idiotic due to the fact that here's a link showing hundreds of scientists, biologists and others, who believe in a creator... http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

(5) Regarding Norris comments, "And it also is to say that not one prayer on any continent in any era of human history has been answered. That premise alone rules atheism preposterous and foolish." You said, "No atheist that I've ever met has said that. By plain probability, it is almost certain that some prayers have been fulfilled, and thus have the appearance of being "answered". That's exactly what Norris said you'd say! His point still stands--an atheist has to put down every prayer offered by every religious person throughout all time. NOT one can be answered, otherwise atheism falls. And you're going to say in billions of "appearance of annswered prayers" that not one has ever been real. Not one???! That's ludicrous, as with all your answers.

See Norris' EXPANDED version on atheism
Discusses science and atheism more indepth http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55789

Can't argue with reason
Great article!! It seems Chuck has delivered a sound blow to atheist logic (or lack there of).
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS!
Now get back to work! Millions of illegal immigrants on welfare are depending on you!
Global warming is a HOAX!
Peace Out!

100's of scientists who are theists
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

I am an Athiest
and I understand the resentment Christians feel when confronted with anti religious speil during the celebration of their savior's birth.

I understand because those of us who do not believe in deities have alwayas been ridiculed for our 'non faith" and have had to endure the same resentment from all faiths,in particular Christians. In this great country where there is room for all beliefs there doesn't seem to be any room for non-belief.

Why is that?







Solstice is a Pagan Holiday,
The Winter Solstice is a Pagan holiday and so in claiming that the atheists are contradicting their own claims.

I will stand with any Wiccan, goddess worshiper, Druid, or other pagan who celebrates solstice if they choose to protest the attack on their holy season.

ALL believers -- even those whose theology is incompatible as Evangelican Christian and Wiccan, as Muslim and Jew -- need to support each other in asserting our First Amendment right to believe against those who would impose their atheist vision on all of society.

YouTube Reagan Christmas speech
Here is a YouTube link for the Reagan Christmas presidential address mentioned in Norris' column... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU0tuah-x7M

FREE Chapter from Chuck Norris
Link isn't working at end of column. But I found the link at http://www.ChuckNorrisOffer.com

Reagan Christmas presidential address
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU0tuah-x7M

Obvious
All the anti-God people are without excuse. The Majesty of this earth is truly amazing - even from space. I find it interesting that the line is being drawn so clearly. God will be fully justified when He moves in Judgement. But even then, it will be Christians who help when people are in need.

I never understood
Why atheist just don't chuckle at all of the religous symbolism and walk away. No one is forcing an atheist to look at nativity scene or any other emblem. What's the big deal?

Athiests Doth Protest too Much
Why waste your time attacking what does not exist? Atheists spend so much time and effort attacking those who believe in God not to convince believers, it's to convince themselves.

Chuck ...
you know as well as I do, that the people who are the least capable of self-defence are the most beligerant and bellicose when using government as hammer and megaphone.
Beyond that, if the people can't see from this where the hearts of their elected officials are and rationalize the inevitable dismissal of them as mere wards of 'the God State'; then we are lost.
If I were a citizen of small town America I would in everyway possible look to disassociate myself from the smarmy folks on the coasts and in the big cities. Something wrong with a person who sees their only significance as being a mall rat of consumer of mass media.

Holiday
Atheists already have a holiday. It is April first!

John
"Date: Dec 16, 2008 - 8:41 AM EST I never understood
Why atheist just don't chuckle at all of the religous symbolism and walk away..."

It has to do with all the religious extremism from bombings and shootings to plain hate and intimidation not just in the US but all over the world. It cannot be a laughing matter. I am not an atheist either but thought you should have an answer

"... No one is forcing an atheist to look at nativity scene or any other emblem. What's the big deal?"

see above

Atheists should never accept
gifts at Christmas, should insist on working through the federal holiday on the 25th of Dec., should never share an Easter dinner, should have the guts to lobby school boards and colleges not to give breaks at the end of Dec., should protest carol programming on radio stations, should lobby tv not to show *A Wonderful Life* or *A Christmsa Carol* every Dec., and otherwise stick to their principles, if they really have any.
Truth is atheists partake of all the holiday generosity and spirit while smugly proclaiming their anti-Chritian (they really don't care about dengrating Hinduism or Taoism) stance in a hypocritical extreme.
I see Chuck hit a nerve as all the trolls who probably aren't considered intellectually gifted enough for the lefty sites are out to glom on this thread.
Merry Christmas to all and God bless us, everyone.

From the Blog: For the Athiests
And it came to pass in those days that the Democrat Party and George Soros sent out a decree that the whole nation should be taxed.

Stanley and Barack Sr. traveled to Kenya, because there was no room for them at the inn.

There, a bright star was born unto Stanley. He would be visited by three wise guys that declared him the savior. Their names were Alinsky, Frank Marshall Davis and Marx. They traveled many miles to embrace the east from whence comes Al Qaeda.

And there were victims, abiding in America, giving watch over liberty and justice. And they were sore afraid!

And suddenly, there was with the idol, a multitude of the great unwashed, praising Obama and saying: "Glory to Change, Glory to Hope, Barry will save us!"

'Peace at any price!' And he shall name his chief of staff Emanuel! Rahm with us.

And they wrapped the idol in Tephlon suits, and laid him out of danger.

And Lo, the missives of the Main Stream Media declared him without blemish, and pure as the driven snow. And he would raise himself an army, disarm the bitter clingers, and side with the Muslims, as is written in his audacious book.

And his kingdom will know no end, and his reign will be perpetual.

And all were filled with wonder. Wondering how he had risen to power to rule the nations.

Darice
"And the continual claim that Christians are discriminated against in a land in which 85 percent of the population are self identified Christians would be laughable if not so absurd."

What people claim and what they actually practice are two different things. since your post is anger personified I suggest you get to the practicing part because you sure could use it.

silly debate all around
I think that atheist sign is pointless provocation. But the responses to it tend to make them look good by comparison. Maybe that is actually their point and their critics are doing their work for it.

For one thing, how can someone call himself a Christian and also think that a roundhouse kick is an appropriate response to an insult?

And how can people not realize that the point of the first amendment is precisely to protect minority viewpoints?

Does calling peoples views myths really compare as an affront to saying that peoples views make them damnded and deserving of an eternity in hell? When it comes to insulting people of different viewpoints Christians still ahve the athiests beat by a long shot.

Atheists
continue to ride the coat tails and profit of religion, but do not want the rules that go with it. They have never created anything of any value on their own.

I suggest we kick them off of our coat tails.

Icedog
These messages were not put in churches, they were put on public property. The issue here is who seems to think they should be able to use public property to proslytize. If Christians didn't seem to think their religion was in need of government welfare in this form, it is doubtful that they would be the focus of this campaign. In fact it isn't even clear how they could be.

What Profit Would There Be
If I suggested the state made the wrong decision in allowing the nativity scene in the first place? Especially in a place where state congressmen walk by every day? Legally, if you open a public space as an arena for free speech, you have to allow EVERYONE the same access. There is plenty of private property to post nativity scenes on, this whole debacle could have been easily avoided. Maybe that's why the atheist sign was harsh, to provoke a reaction that would get the state out of the business of providing public property for private displays.

Hal donothaveabrain
Talking about being ignorant...Can you cite an example of Christian bombing in this country? Who's your daddy, you scumbag? Karl Marx..?

You know...
I happen to agree with Barry Goldwater.

"Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy."

Most religious folks I know are fine individuals, whom with I have excellent personal and professional relationships.

Most of them also don't know that though I happen to be a conservative, I also happen to be an atheist.

I am often baffled why people don't understand that it is 100% an illegal endorsement of a particular religion to have things like the Ten Commandments posted in the public square, (or famously, on a judges wall) or a Nativity scene in front of a state capital. The constitution expressly forbids favoring one religion over another.

Some ask, "Well, whats your problem with the Ten Commandments? Don't kill! Don't steal! What's wrong with that?" Nothing of course, is wrong with those particular instructions, but of course the 1st Commandment, the one that outweighs them all is "Don't worship any other god"! So, one can imagine how fair I think my trial is, if I walk into a court chamber as a non believing defendant staring at instructions to worship a specific deity.

I wouldn't even touch Chucks hidden premise that somehow an Atheist is less moral or patriotic than a religious person with a ten foot pole, but suffice it to say I am a 15 year Navy veteran on the tail end of what I hope to be a 20 year career, love my country, and my family, have never committed a crime, and don't believe in any way shape or form.

We're all atheists about almost every religion that exists, or has existed in the history of mankind. My atheism just goes one religion further.

Mrs. Paddy...Thanks!
That was a terrific take off. How can you be so sharp this early in the morning?

kick
That was definitely a round-house kick article.

Save for the occasional outbreak
in Ireland between Prostestant and Catholic, Christians are not bombing anyone anywhere. Christians did not at their inception form armies and physically enforce conversion--those practices developed a 1000 years after Christ and in repsponse to constant aggression from other forces.

Christianity brought an end to Western slavery, gave the world the idea of the individual, conceived of a country that guarantees *life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,* and now has representatives all over the world practicing charity--like drilling wells in Africa and supplying support to dissidents in China.

It is from *the meek shall inherit the earth* and *charity for all* that leftist ideas of *social justice* arise. Pagans did not care for the poor or alienated of society, becsuse the gods had abandoned the failures and smiled on the successful.

The journalist who threw a shoe at Pres. Bush is expressing a freedom his Islamic nation did not afford him under Saddam Hussein but which he benefits from because of the Western idea of *redress* now available in his liberated country.

Those who complain the loudest about religion all daily enjoy the conditions of freedom and liberty the religions of the Founders embedded in US law and social contract.

Celebrating Christmas
By the way, I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Like many atheists I have no problem celebrating Christmas, although I tend not to go out of my way to participate, it IS kind of ubiquitous this time of year. It's easy to celebrate because the Christian elements are pretty minor and easily left out, and no one assumes you're a pagan if you leave the pagan elements in. It wasn't atheists who paganized and commercialized Christmas, and we didn't make it into a federal holiday. Even if we wanted to work on Christmas, most businesses would be closed down. If Christmas had been left a religous holiday like Easter, maybe it wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

And Winter Solstice is an astronomical event that marks the season, mentioning it doesn't imply an embrace of paganism.

again
Once again, from the posts by atheists here, I'm convinced atheists are emotional two-year olds. Not a single rational argument.

John M Cain
"Date: Dec 16, 2008 - 9:45 AM EST Hal ...
Talking about being ignorant...Can you cite an example of Christian bombing in this country? ..."

Rudolph, Atlanta

stonesean
"Date: Dec 16, 2008 - 9:51 AM EST Subject: You know...
I happen to agree with Barry Goldwater..."

Thank you for your service and very well said!


Types of Atheists

1) Angry Atheists - those who either consciously or sub-consciously blame God for personal tragedies or human tragedy in general (death, wars, suffering, hunger etc.) which is proof positive to them that there is NO God.

2) Amused Atheists - those who consider themselves 'Enlightened' and transcend other humans who exhibit 'Faith' and consider them simpletons, while considering themselves intellectually and morally superior.

3) Behavioral Atheists - a prime example are homosexuals, who find themselves in contradiction to natural law and blame their deviancy on God or anything other than chosen behavior.

4) 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' Atheists - those that hold something is false only because it hasn't been proved true (God), or that something is true only because it has not been proved false (Big Bang).

5) Atheistic Contrarians - those humans who are always against anything that is commonly held, if 99% of humans were Atheists - they would believe in God.

6) Marxist Atheists et al - those who believe that Government by humans and for humans, must have the highest allegiance and anything else (God) must be secondary and therefore inferior or non-existent by definition.

7) Amoralistic Egoism or 'Individualist Atheist' - those who believe their freedom to do anything 'freely chosen', supersedes any guideline, creed, commandments or moral restrictions, placed on them by God.

8) Narcissistic Atheists - those who believe that anything they do not know or are capable of knowing is therefore false and patently intellectually dishonest.

Atheists generally use ridicule, or 'ad hominem attacks' (religious behavior) to refute any ideas posited against them, which actually gives credence to those ideas, because the attackers have NO real answers or refutations.

Free of Humanism/Atheism since 1972 - Praise God!

Rational Argument
We only have the one argument: it's unconstitutional for government to endorse a religion. The FFRF didn't put the sign at a church, they put it on public property being used to display a nativity scene. I wouldn't have chosen those words, maybe something more like 'To our religious friends, while you're celebrating your holidays don't forget to love one another'. I personally believe there would have been an outcry no matter how innocuous the message, so no need to criticize to make the point that you shouldn't use the public space if you're not prepared to share it.

Two mistakes of Lon
Lon , first of all a merry Christmas and happy Chanukah to you.

Two error in your postings. First your write:
" For one thing, how can someone call himself a Christian and also think that a roundhouse kick is an appropriate response to an insult?"

notice by careful reading that Mr Norris called for a WRITTEN equivalent of a roundhouse kick and did NOT advocate VIOLENCE. That replying to evil with teaching of God's truth would be very much in keeping with the teaching of scripture.

Then Lon is wrong when he say's "Does calling peoples views myths really compare as an affront to saying that peoples views make them damnded and deserving of an eternity in hell? When it comes to insulting people of different viewpoints Christians still ahve the athiests beat by a long shot. "

Well I am not a Christian but I totally disagree with LON. Everyone has a right to free speech but there is a time and place for everything. The Lunatic church that disrupted the funerals of service men was dead wrong for doing so. Just as an atheist or Jew or Muslim would be wrong for disrupting a Christian Celebration of Christmas.

It is the placement and timing of the Atheist post that I don't like. They have the freedom to say or do what they want but they intentionally send a message that is meant to antagonize others during a happy time. While the message of the nativity scene is hope for the future and good will towards man. if you dont like the nativity ignore it and it is non offensive.

Bottom line is the Atheist screed was put up with an intentional message of meanness and INTENT to cause a disruption. The nativity scenes and menorah's are a Celebration of peoples happiness with no effect intentional or otherwise with those who disagree with them.

Individual Citizen is the Minority

Lon wrote: "...And how can people not realize that the point of the first amendment is precisely to protect minority viewpoints?..."

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." 1st Amendment

Contrary to commonly held 'Feelings' of Liberals - the 1st Amendment protects 'All Citizens'.

The individual Citizen IS the minority in America.

There is
no such thing as a true atheist.
If there was, they would insist that there be no services when they died.
They would insist on being "shoved" aside so people would not have to smell their remains.

If an 'atheist' insists on their remains be cremated & their ashes spread in a place of their choosing, that alone, shows FAITH.

RGeek-Lolo-MrsPaddy-Tinsldr2
What is it with these Liberal Dimwits that they spend SO MUCH TIME attacking something that they claim DOES NOT EXIST?!?!?! Typical, Drug Addled, Liberal, Dysfunctional, Victim Mentality.

John M Cain
"Talking about being ignorant...Can you cite an example of Christian bombing in this country?"

Here's a list for you just with regards to violence at abortion clinics:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

It doesn't include the years of terrorist acts of the Ku Klux Klan.

LD35 and burial
LD 35 I am not an atheist but how does burial rights or cremation in any way reflect a belief in an afterlife?

cemetaries and other ceremonies are for the living and not for the dead. A grave site and funeral services is a place where living can go and reflect and get closure on a person to whom they were close.

In fact the opposite of what LD35 wrote is true. If you were a true believer in a major Religion like Christianity then your faith while alive determines what happens to you after death, not where other people ultimatly decide to dispose of your remains.

While my beliefs are different from those of an Atheist, an Atheist burial service that brings closure for a loss to those love ones still living does not make them less an atheist.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Hitting a Nerve w/around house kick
As with most of those who comment against God, there is little if any fact offered to compell their argument. Villifying the messenger, denagrating those with faith, prove to be their ony claim to justify "there is no God". Not to mention the ideological theme of what the seperation of church and state is.
But take the tale of 2 churches in America. One has spewed hate from the pulpit, and literally blasphemed everything good about America: Obama's church in Chicago; its messages of such totally ignored by the MSM. The other church in a small town, which preached the Love and forgiveness of Christ was villified and denagrated for its message. Swarmed by the MSM for that message and recently firebombed, probably for that same message. Would that leave us to believe that Love is actually hated? AH, but hate is tolerated, even loved?
As jesus himself said before the crusifiction, "they will hate you because they hated Me first"; that said of those who either thought they knew God in the image they created, or knew not of any God, other than the ones they created. Man must realize that God is not a respecter of man, what he creates or acheives , but of where his heart is.

Icedog
"These atheists consider themselves so brave and brazen for disgracing Christian symbols...why don't they head into a local mosque and start posting their displays and propaganda?"

If you had ever taken the time to read the writings of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and other prominent atheists you would not make such an ignorant statement. They do not spare islam anything more or less that they give christianity. If fact, if you read the sign posted by the atheists in Washington it make no reference to christianity. You see it as a slight to christianity because the nativity scene was in the government building. If there was a mulism or jewish or hindu display the sign would have still been the same.

Its true that they did not go into a mosque, but neither did they go into a church. They posted a sign that contained some of their beliefs in a public forum.

LD 35
I am an Atheist and in my will I have a military funeral. (Cremation followed by internment of the ashes)

I also have specific instructions that there are to be no religious readings or services of any kind, and no religious symbol on the marker. Simply my name, and service dates.

More than anything, I have chosen the military burial for two reasons, one because for a career of service, I've earned a marker that commemorates such. Two, it puts ZERO cost on my family.

Burial and cremation serve a sanitary purpose far beyond any religious meaning. You can't have corpses simply lying around. Otherwise, it's Cholera time!

Tinsldr2
While you are right the timing is meant to antagonize or spoil the celebration, that does not automatically place a limit on their free speech rights. There is no right to NOT be offended outside breaking an existing law (ie. pornographic displays, public vulgarity in front of a minor etc).

While the atheist signs are crude and full of negative opinion meant to stir the pot, the best move for Christians is to ignore the displays they find offensive. Protesting only encourages more signs.

Worse is when the displays get removed altogether in order to avoid offending people. (political correctness).

I am glad these people are coming
out of the closet and showing America who they really are. It is an ugly sight. Parents show your children this billboard. Explain to your children about bad manners. Again every parent should make sure their children understand the evil atheists have accomplished in this world.

renny,
I've issues the following challenge on 4 columns now and have yet to get one atheist to take it up.

It's time for atheists to back up their words with actions:

First, refuse to take days off work for religious holidays. If your place of employment is closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas bring home the backlog of stuff that's gathered on your desk and spend your usual 8 hours working diligently just as if you were in the office.

Second, refuse all invitations to holiday celebrations including family gatherings. Hold onto your secular principles and insist that you'll gather with family for purely sentimental reasons on a randomly chosen date that has NO religious connotations of any kind. Find your own day to claim. BE as secular as you say you are and if you think Winter wants celebrating throw a party on February 9th.

Third, as part of your commitment to act on your secular principles give no Christmas gifts and accept no Christmas gifts. Yes, your kids will be upset that their friends have a ton of new stuff, but that's where the sacrifice part comes in. Don't forget to send back everything anyone gives you unopened with a note explaining your principles. That includes giving back the Christmas bonus, turkey, ham, etc. that your fellow employees are getting.

I won't hold my breath waiting to hear of even one atheist willing to do it. My experience is that those who scream against God during the holidays want the goodies even as the reject the God whom those holidays honor.

Atheists question
Scientists have determined that the whole known universe is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed. Where is it going, and what is it going towards? If there is nothing out there, is it heading towards atheism or an atheist?

MikeH
Real Christians don't regard those who perform bombings at abortion clinics to be "Christian", since this is not condoned by Christ. They may call themselves Christians but that is because they have freedom of speech. They have the ability to lie just like atheists and God-haters do.

Poor Silly Atheists
Let the atheists post their ridiculous signs. How sad for them. What a narrow and limited and incurious view of life they have! What arrogance! What foolishness! They do not appear at all intellectual- just narrow-minded, conceited, and without much possibility or even probability.

Bigots Chuck
Anyone can spew disdain for religion, but is that what America's Founders created our rights for? -- Chuck Norris

================

No Chuck it's not. The last part of the first amendment says:

...or the right of the people *peaceably* to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

PEACEFUL assembly, means peaceful expression of one's religion.

It is not peaceful to insult other religions. And ironically it's be taboo under "hate speech" that the left adores. It is religious intolerance. Atheists are clearly bigots.

Why not just say "Happy Solstice" and leave out the Christian insults?

Religion and government
[Good points Lon and Stonesean] Theists and atheists alike are fully entitled to place point-of-view displays on private property with the owner's permission.

The insistence on inserting religious displays on government property is far less defensible, and is akin to the Russians dropping a flag under the North Pole. Why insist on placing religious displays on public property unless the motive is to be provocative? The "atheist" response and religious counter-response (etc) was predictable.

This illustrates why private solutions are usually far preferable to government solutions. Theists can put religious displays on their property and atheists could put anti-religious displays on their property. Private property principles determine the proper division with a minimum of conflict.

Dean and Rational Arguement
Dean you start off with two valid points but I disagree with your conclusion.

First you state: "We only have the one argument: it's unconstitutional for government to endorse a religion."
And you are right but in the case of allowing an expression of symbolism on Public Land the state was not ENDORSING any religion. They were allowing the FREE expression of that religion.

Then You were right in your sentiment when your wrote about the Atheist response "I wouldn't have chosen those words,...."

Now there are very very few people who would call themselves conservatives that Don't believe in free speech. But like you stated the words chosen matter.

What people of faith are upset about is the wording, timing and placement of the message. The message itself is certainly constitutional but is put up with an intention of causing strife and disharmony. Exactly the opposite of what the religious messages proclaim.

While the people who posted the rude signs have the right to be rude, that doesn't mean it was the correct thing for them to do. Also like Mr Norris wrote, they shouldnt be suprised if they recieve the "virtual non-violent" equivalent of a roundhouse kick for their rudeness. Namely the freedom of speech of others in condeming them in media, boycotting their businesses and peacefully protesting against their rudeness.

dean goes on to posit that no matter what message the atheist posted they would have been attacked. I disagree. If the message had not directly sought to antagonize and been worded as such it would not have had nearly the response it did. The Atheist did what they did to draw maxim attention and they succeeded.

Darise
It's a Federal Holiday. The atheist signs were, at the very least, inappropriate, and deliberately designed to be provocative to your supposed faith.

What part of that don't you understand?

btw, Olberman could use a dose of humility.

Atheists
The word 'atheist' means against God. If God does not exist , then I guess you are against nothing. Interesting conundrum.

RE: Types of Atheist
Retired Greek has brought definition by way of behaviour and ideaology, much of which points out why those who "Hate GOD" do.
Virtually every point has the same basis in truth though, that which comes to the core of their argument, without every being exposed as what is their defense refuses to acknowlage.
We are ALL born with a sinful nature, one that separates us from God. We, because of this sinful nature fear a justice beholding to our crimes against God. And, how could anyone forgive what sin we have formed in our heart?; its original birth place. We sin when we allow ourselves to be led into thoughts contrary to Love. The heart usually follows the mind, or the physical gratification that follows the thought.
Knowing this, and that man could not face his own decadent desires truthfully; a way of Forgivness was formed, by sacrifice through and by Love. Faith and belief then become the point unto which our souls are set free from sin. Freewill, personal choice, and an open heart then becomes our path to Hope and Peace.

Duckhunter
I invite you to read up on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/notruescotsman.html

I could just as easily say that no true Christian would celebrate Christmas since it is not condoned by Christ.


correction to duckhunter
Atheist does not mean someone who is Against God but it means someone who does not believe in God. there is a difference.

Education makes us all better in our arguments for truth.

From the online dictionary:
a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

from webster on line:
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism


MikeH
Your argument about Scotsmen is an idiotic argument against my point. Every Christian faith group and denomination I know of strongly condemns those who would commit violence in His name.
Can you say that about church burners (hateful atheists) and muslims?

Duckhunter
Atheism is not against God directly but the idea of a higher being. Just as religion and the belief in God are ideas, the belief that no higher power exists is an idea as well.

That is atheism.

They are opposites of each other but not in the sense that Christians love God and atheists hate god. Instead, one groups believes that God exists and the other group does not.




Tinsel
If I disbelieve or deny the existence of legitimate government, does that make me against government?
I believe it does, so it applies to atheists in my book.
If I don't believe in gravity, I think that means I believe in anti-gravity.
Everyone believes in something, so I believe I'll let unbelievers continue with their unbelief.
You've been warned. No excuses!

Atheists
Atheists are not the real problem Christians have these days. They are just a convenient whipping post.

No, the real problem with Christians these days is their behavior.

Namely, a redefinition of what Hell would:

Hell, n: Spending eternity with Christians.

Christians like Chuck Norris, Hugh Hewitt, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the list is endless are angry, dispicable, small-minded people who no one would care to spend dinner with. No one who themselves is not a Christian, that is.

Christians and Ugly American are interchangeable. Obnoxious is another word.

But rather than look in the mirror as to why society is turning more secular, Christians would rather take their frustrations out on so called atheists.

If actions speak louder than words and a person never acts on a God or religious belief, do they believe in God?

Tis the season to hate atheists and publicly demonstrate to the rest of the world why becoming Christian is unattractive.



To Daric
"insignificant sign"

Yep, progressives would consider it likewise 'insignificant' if the sign said "Atheism is deceit... it is merely a folly that hardens hearts and enslaves minds", right?

You see, the definition of 'insignificant' seems to depend upon which specific group is being given offense. As long as the folks whose beliefs or ways are being deliberately attacked are primarily Christians, the sign is 'insignificant'. Let the attack be launched upon homosexuals, for instance, and then progressives (and atheists) would be singing a different tune.


Duckhunter
"Your argument about Scotsmen is an idiotic argument against my point. Every Christian faith group and denomination I know of strongly condemns those who would commit violence in His name."

Just because you don't understand something doesn't necessarily make it idiotic. You asked for examples of bombings by Christians. When provided those examples you claim that they were not true Christians because true Christians wouldn't commit a bombing. Its a type of circular and ad hoc reasoning.

"Can you say that about...muslims?"

Yes. No true muslim would commit a terrorist act.

Atheists and non-believers:
There will come a time when EVERYONE will believe in God.
Scripture states in Philipians 2 that "at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

So.... say what you will today, atheists, you WILL be believers on day. Unfortunately, if you choose to go to your death denying God, your first realization upon death will be that you were horrible wrong, and will spend an eternity separated from God. By then, it will be too late.

Walker: Texas Religious Cop
Your points are valid, however, religion can not do what we atheists do. I wish you would though. I wish you would post a sign that instead of saying: "At this season of THE WINTER SOLSTICE may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" but instead says: "Believe in the guy in the sky who is never seen, believe our beliefs which are founded on others beliefs, believe the world will end so that way, we can enslave your minds for the rest of time." - this would be a more effective way to convert people to logical thinking, so feel free to hang your brainwash signs.

Kathy..
Besides one book, demonstratably false in many ways, what evidence do you have of this?

To Vampire's Reflection
"If actions speak louder than words and a person never acts on a God or religious belief, do they believe in God?"

Intellectually, perhaps. But being devoted to God, following God... absolutely not.

"Christians and Ugly American are interchangeable. Obnoxious is another word."

Here you depart from wisdom. You have not known every Christian, yet you stereotype them. Here's an idea... find a good community church -- you know, one of the ones with laughing, happy families going in and out of the doors every Sunday -- and try going there for a few weeks and getting to know the people.

If you think there are no such churches, then you need to go look. I have never lived anywhere were such congregations couldn't be found (of course, I have never lived in a major inner city).

If you honestly look and still can't find one of those churches, and you are ever nearby, come to mine: Taylor's Valley Baptist Church, Belton, TX. We'd love to have you visit. Or try First Baptist Church in Gurdon, AR. Or try Gentian Baptist Church in Columbus, GA. The wonderful folks at either of those churches would be glad of your visit, as well.



Nate
I have yet to meet a person calling him or herself an "atheist" who was not, at heart, a God-hater masquerading as a philosopher.

If you are one, you would be the first.

Real False Belief
Christians get their panties in a bunch because they look at the wonder of the world and are flummoxed that anyone could not believe in God.

I mean come on, the evidence is right in front of everyone's face.

But in reality, the real evidence that is right in front of everyone's face is that Christian societies are no different than any other society. And more importantly, consequently no more attractive. We should start a game show, "Who Wants To Be A Christian." We'll take cameras around to churches and say to the would be participants, "Look, you'll get to spend eternity with these people and their, uhh, interesting taste in interior decorating."


Uhh, that's right. If Christianity were everything and a bag of chips as proclaimed by its believers, then societies that follow Christianity would be less "sinful" to use their words.

But they are not. Which blows a hole wide open in their theory that somehow Christians make better people.

It also blows a hole in the entire argument that "without God there would be no morality" because Christians act no more moral than anyone else, including atheists.

Quite the opposite actually, atheists, by and large represent a smaller percentage of the prison population than their respective percentage of the entire population.

But alas, being atheist has nothing to do with that statistic, because when education is factored out of the equation, the atheist population reaches parity.

All which only goes to prove that belief in God, or not, is irrelevant to human behavior. Worshipping Odin, will not make one wit of difference in the end.

Just education.

Vampire's Reflection
VR, you are a hypocrite for claiming there is no God, but then demanding that people behave as though there is.


Duckhunter no excuse for close mind
I believe in God the creator of the Universe.

I simply point out to your close mind that your definition is wrong.

I also point out that I do NOT believe in the Boogey man that hides under a childs bed. This does not infer any hatred or antogonism towards the boogey man. You can not rightfully claim I am "against the boogey man", I just don't believe there is one.

There are several folks here making rational comments that are worth discussing and your making up of definitions is not rational and certainly in no way advances the cause of truth.

Be informed
In reply to many of the comments, let me say that if belief in God wasn't so threatening to so many non-believers, we wouldn't have such a great furor. Why are non-believers so terrified of Christians and their God? As philosophers in the past have said repeatedly, if Christianity is simply a "fad", leave it alone and it will die on its own. If it's true, it will flourish. Well?
To Blair and Carol both, I'd like to suggest this web-site: http://www.reasons.org
This might be a web-site of interest to others who are open to seeking scholarly evidence for the proof of a designer/creator...
Too, I would suggest that those siting evidence of our founding fathers "aetheism" to search original documents/letters. Contrary to present day rewritten history, you will find nearly all, including Thomas Jefferson to be sincere Christian believers.

Atheist sign
If there is no GOD, then we have no rights. We have been given our rights by our Creator. There is no way to logically define Creator other than Deity.

Christians should be using this atheist sign to witness the Gospel of Christ Jesus to all they can. It is a perfect setup for many divine appointments.

If the sign is hateful, then so what. But the truth is, for all atheists there is no GOD.... ever. Scripture assures us that God will provide for all His chosen children to hear and respond to the Gospel by faith. He will not lose one.

Heaven is a free gift
We don't earn it or deserve it.
Man is a sinner.
We can not save our selves.
God is merciful and does not want to punish us.
But God is also just and declares He will punish all sin.
We have a problem because " No one is righteous, no, not one!".
God solves it in the person of Jesus Christ, who is both Man and GOD.
Jesus died on the cross and payed the penalty for our sin and rose from the dead to purchase a place in heaven for all those who believe this. " He that believe th in Me has eternal life" He also gives us His perfect life which he lived for us so we would be acceptable to a Holy being.
This gift is received by faith. Faith is truthful knowledge combined with TRUST. If you trust that Jesus substituted himself to be punished for your sins, then you are born again of the Spirit, and adopted by the Father and come under His protection. You are now free to go to Him and receive forgiveness for your sins instead of Wrath. Believe, then repent and you will be saved.

Amen.

re: Tallil2lon
Right back at you.

Chuck Norris is making sweeping generalizations about people he's never met.

So are most of the Christian posters on this site.

Sam Harris has the right of it. The word atheist should not exist. For it to truly have any meaning then it would have to mean a particular God, not just any God, because religions vary widely in their take on the God principle.

But back to Sam Harris, lack of belief in something, whether Odin or the Easter Bunny, has never, ever been demonstrated to promote common human behavior. Atheists have nothing in common. Just like people who do not believe in Santa Claus have nothing in common.

Christians, on the other hand, have a dogmatic Bible with rules and proscriptions about their behavior so it is fair to generalize about them, to the extent they practice that religion anyway.

An to even cast some glib statement out their that Christians in the public square are different when they are in the church is laughable.

Christians posting here on Town Hall are NO different than the Christians in your church.

Zippo.

I've met plenty of practicing Christians in my day, and I steer clear of them except to make the case to them that their holier than though arrogance is obnoxious and mostly responsible for the world going more secular.

But Christians partaking in real self-reflection and real self-examination is about as easy to find as a Vampire's Reflection.

Chuck
I don't hate God but then, I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist. I believe that if God does exist, there's a pretty darn good chance he/she is not anything close to what religious scholars would lead us all to believe. I think most Atheists don't hate God either. Rather, I think that most hate the things done using God as a justification. You would also have to look at line of reasoning that brought a person to become an atheist(or a Christian for that matter). I'm sure some formerly religious people became atheists out of sheer anger at God for "wrongs" they believe were done to them by God. It may be at that these are the most vocal.

One thing is certain. If you're an atheist, there is no shortage of religious material in one form or another that you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. If I was an atheist, and even currently with my being an agnostic, I can see why that would be infuriating. I see religion being used to persecute and discriminate against homosexuals, to dictate what a woman can do with her own body, and even to justify wars. It's a little infuriating just as I'm sure it is for a religious person who reads about the man who wants to remove "under God" from the pledge.

Atheists and religious people are in opposition to each other but neither exists only to oppose the other. They're beliefs just often lead to clashes and disagreements. Neither side has a monopoly on respectful behavior and tact.

stonesean
The constitution expressly forbids favoring one religion over another. -- stonesean

==========================

Not exactly.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ...

Establishing a religion means there will be no ONE religion for all people, it doesn't mean that the majority would not be a majority of one religion.

The federalist papers clearly indicate that our founders at the time were dealing with *Christian* denominations for a federal religion. This is why Jefferson replied to the Danbury Baptist Church - (wall of separation) they had written Jefferson a letter hinting that Christian religion (their Baptist religion) ought to be the new federal religion.

Our forefathers intended mans God of choice to guide the individual, they never dreamt we'd be Godless.

To Vampire's Reflection
"Chuck Norris is making sweeping generalizations about people he's never met."

Touche, you are demonstrably correct. Is that a justification for you to do the same? It certainly isn't for me.

"So are most of the Christian posters on this site."

Yet not all, which disproves your stereotype in the first place.

"Christians, on the other hand, have a dogmatic Bible with rules...about their behavior so it is fair to generalize about them, to the extent they practice..."

True. To the extent that Christians practice their religion, they give to the poor, have compassion on others, denounce sin yet emphasize mercy and forgiveness... 'He that loves me obeys my commandements,' remember?

"An to even cast some glib statement out their that Christians in the public square are different when they are in the church is laughable."

People living quiet, dedicated lives don't tend to shout from soapboxes. However, some of us DO act in public exactly as we act in church.

"Christians posting here on Town Hall are NO different than the Christians in your church."

And you know this how? Again, you assume that you know that which you cannot know. Indeed, you make your assertion on the basis of *faith*.

"I've met plenty of practicing Christians in my day, and I steer clear of them except to make the case to them that their holier than though arrogance is obnoxious..."

'Holier than thou' is not the attitude that Christ taught us. Perhaps you should first find those who truly exhibit the teachings of Christ, and see how they sound.

"But Christians partaking in real self-reflection and real self-examination is about as easy to find as a Vampire's Reflection."

Especially if you are looking in the wrong place, such as the soapbox in the public square.

The invitation stands, neighbor.

harassment and hatred
If you believe in "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you", why does it surprise you that people whose beliefs you disdain should disdain your beliefs as well.

If Christians (or any other group) expect to be treated with respect by others, they ought to treat others with the same respect they desire for themselves.

Atheists have deep seated beliefs about the non-existence of God, just as deep as Christians have for the existence of God. Atheists saying that God does not exist should be no more objectionable to you than your saying God does exist should be to them.

You know you won't stop talking about God in front of them. So accept their talking about no God in front of you.

Hail Satan
or Lucifer.

Bigot
"Christians and Ugly American are interchangeable. Obnoxious is another word." vampires reflection

===============================

I'd wager vampires reflection doesn't see the bigotry in this sentence.



Chuck Norris
Merry Christ-Mass.
May God Bless You Sir.
Happy Birthday Jesus!

I have Pagan friends, and It isn't my place to put them down or tell them they are wrong. I share my faith when they show an interest in knowing any detail of what I believe. That is my part of being Christian. It even says so in the bible. I am obligated to speak out, but not to force.

And for all you Christial Gamers out there!!!
JESUS SAVES... (everyone else takes damage)

Amen

Jo,
Thanks for the thoughtful answer, but if I understand it, what you are saying is that the founders intended us to simply choose between which denomination of Christianity we would follow, and nothing more?

It reminds me of a line from "The Blues Brothers". Jake asks a club owner what kind of music they play, and the club owner happily replies: "Oh, we've got both kinds of music, Country AND Western!"

Because the technology did not exist at the time to travel the earth in a matter of hours, or communicate across the earth in a matter of seconds, I would agree that the Founders never envisioned the plurality of society that we have now. They may not have thought to defend the rights of non-Christian Americans because they may not have predicted the occurance of non Christian Americans. I use this as a hypothetical only because I KNOW there were Agnostic and Atheist Americans among the founders, but for now we will leave them out.

But the founders ignorance (and I mean ignorance in the true definition of the word, and in no way to imply stupidity) of the future plurality of America should not limit the way we legislate today.

Second to Vampire's Reflection
"If Christianity were everything and a bag of chips as proclaimed by its believers, then societies that follow Christianity would be less "sinful" to use their words. But they are not. Which blows a hole wide open in their theory that somehow Christians make better people."

I would suggest that giving to the poor and loving one's neighbor as oneself, being merciful, helpful, a peacemaker -- these DO make people better and less sinful. The problem with following Christ -- Christianity -- is not that it fails, but that we actually TRY it so rarely.

dear historian
it takes less guts to invade a nation with no military and steal its resources and fatten the pockets of your corporate buddies. It takes even less guts to slaughter thousands of Iraqi civilians and rob them of their lively hood. What is the real crime here? Throwing a pair of shoes, or completely destroying a nation leaving it completely unlivable for the next twenty years while murdering thousands of its civilians including women and children, and leaving millions as refugees and orphans. your a pig, look in the mirror.

The sign offends more than Christians
The sign goes beyond insulting Christians by being placed during the Christmas season next to a Nativity Scene. It claims that there is only the natural world, denying the existance of any spiritual world. That calls into question the spritual beliefs of almost every single culture and civilization of the world.

To be against any sort of sprituality is to desire a world in which all are amoral, doing for others only what is profitable for oneself. If I held the belief of the atheist and took it on faith that there is no deity, then why should I bother to follow the laws of man? Why should I not only look to my own desires to direct all of my actions? Why should I not lie, cheat and steal if I think I can get away with it?

If there is no afterlife, no punishment, no reward, no judgement, what profit is there in showing kindness for my fellow man?

To Ric
"If Christians (or any other group) expect to be treated with respect by others, they ought to treat others with the same respect they desire for themselves."

True, yet stating in a civil fashion "You are in error" is not itself disrespectful. Would that all those professing Christ would restrain themselves to such civility! But very many do. I try, though I don't suppose I always succeed.

That is also why I think Christians should emphasize what we believe, and why, rather than criticisizing what others believe, or don't believe. Criticizing the belief of others is exactly what the authors of the sign did, and if we don't like it we shouldn't do the same.

I'm curious, though: where are the people who habitually denounce Christians for attacking the beliefs of others? Have they abandoned their principle just because it is the beliefs of theists being attacked? If so, had they no true dedication to principle to start with?

Blair - Your logic is excellent
The only reason to believe in the existence of God is faith. I don't know why christians can't just accept that premise.

As regards the signs in Washington, what difference does it make? Nobody is being hurt. An opinion is being expressed. Why the umbrage?


stonesean
I essentially agree with you.

The 'free exercise of" means the freedom to practice any religion - absolutely, no doubt about it.

Winter Solstice clearly isn't a religion it is a cultural, seasonal, celestial, celebration.

However, even not a religion. I'm all for atheists to wish each other a Happy Winter Solstice. Have their celebration.

I just don't think Atheists should claim there are no angles, devil, god, heaven etc... It's disrespectful to other religions.

To Deornwolf
The sign was deliberately provoking, of course. It would have been easy to state "At this season of the winter solstice, may reason prevail; There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell; There is only our natural world;" then follow up with an encouragement to do good to one another, etc. The writers, however, decided to deliberately attack religion by using words which could be expected to antagonize, such as 'enslaved'.

However, what of this? If it is true that many of the more vocal atheists are better described as 'anti-theists', if it is true that some people who claim not to believe in God are more accurately described as hating the thought of him, then what should we expect from them? Certainly no better than Christ said to expect.

If the writers intended to antagonize, how better to show the difference between Christ and their philosophy than by forgiving them the insult and offering something better?

That is my conclusion, anyway. The whole thing offended me at first, but I reckon there is a better way of looking at the incident.

Vampire's reflection writes
But Christians partaking in real self-reflection and real self-examination is about as easy to find as a Vampire's Reflection.

Oh? Who died and made you the judge of mens' hearts?

Jesus simply being Jesus offended people as well, if I read my Bible correctly. Is He as well responsible for your unbelief, since He too didn't and does not give everyone what they think proper?

Blaming everyone else for your unbelief reveals that you, like Adam, are perfectly willing to pass the buck so as not to face up to your own responsibility for your refusal to believe. You will not be asked at your death to account for so-and-so's adulterous or thieving or murderous acts, you will be asked why *you* refused to believe-and will have to bear all responsibility for your answer if you continue to reject the One Who bought you at the cost of His very life.

People will always disappoint. Even men of God did and do reprehensible deeds. That's part and parcel of being fallen-none can escape and all sin much and daily. Get over it, you are not above anyone in your assumed superiority except in your own mind. Christ alone is the focus of our faith, and the sooner you grasp that the closer you'll be to the truth.

Mr Chuck Norris,
It is a wonderful thing to be able to write to you on such an important issue. I feel strongly that you are completely wrong in your feelings over the Atheists sign posted at the nativity scene. There is no doubt that most Atheists feel exactly as this sign dictates. Yet every year all over the world, Atheists sit quietly by as their family and friends celebrate their religous holidays such as Christmas, Hanukah, Easter, Ramadan, etc. Atheists go to Christian Baptisms with gifts and wishes of well being. While doing this most Atheists will not argue against the religion or holiday, or the myths that created them, but will enjoy the time spent with family and friends.

Do not disparage all Atheists simply because a few are willing to stand up and speak their minds. It will do you no good. We are the silent majority, and we will prevail because as history has proven time anf again,logic and reason will eventually win out over myth and superstition.

Tnsldr2
I'm glad we could agree on some points. The reason I believe there would be a furor over an innocuous message is based on the reaction to 'Imagine No Religion' signs in other parts of the country. It could be it would have been different with the sign in Olympia. I'm not a member of the FFRF, if they were trying to make the point that certain Christians sued the state to allow the nativity scene on free speech grounds, but Christians wouldn't be happy if free speech that dissented from theirs was displayed in the same public forum, I think the point could have been made more gently, but perhaps you're right and the point needed to be made bluntly in order to bring awareness to the issue.

If the point isn't seeking government endorsement, why do Christians want their displays on government property so badly? Don't they have lawns?

re: Talli2long
"Yet not all, which disproves your stereotype in the first place."

Uhh, no. Generalizations are taken to mean a bell curve where more then 50% of the stereotypical curve conform. More than 50% of the Christians posting here are making negative generalizations about atheists: stereotype applicable.

"To the extent that Christians practice their religion, they give to the poor, have compassion on others, denounce sin yet emphasize mercy and forgiveness... 'He that loves me obeys my commandements,' remember?"

This is pretzel logic if ever there was. I'm not the one who has to remember, it's the follower of Christianity who need to "remember". I'm an observer. I should be able to observe that Christians emphasize mercy and forgiveness. I defy you to parse through all the postings on this entire site and find any emphasis on mercy and forgiveness. Christians get no free pass simply because their doctrine says something desirable, but that in effect never materializes in worldy behavior. Christians as a whole are no more merciful than any other culture and the onus is on Christians to prove otherwise. To date, all scientific attempts to prove so have failed.


"The problem with following Christ -- Christianity -- is not that it fails, but that we actually TRY it so rarely. "
That is such a cop out. Or perhaps we should rephrase to God out. That statement is so singularly ridiculous that every Christian should be penalized anytime any Christian utters this silly statement or its siblings. The Reductio ad Absurdum argument then is that Christians who cannot live their own doctrine are so sure in their incompetence that they insist that those who are not following their incompetent example must live by their un-implementable doctrine. If the angry, spiteful, nasty Christians posting on this site are not Christians then Christianity means nothing.






renny
Date: Dec 16, 2008 - 9:55 AM EST Save for the occasional outbreak
in Ireland between Prostestant and Catholic, Christians are not bombing anyone anywhere. "

You don't count Africa? What about not that long ago in former Yugoslavia where christians raped and forced impregnated Muslim women not to mention executing Muslim men? Glad you weren't around during the IRA terrorist attacks during Maggie's time. I love the way you make light of terrorism that suites your purpose

The enlightenment NOT religion was the main basis for our laws and constitution

Jo....
We agree that "free excercise of" means ANY religion. Worship what you want. Even if it's to worship nothing at all.

I also don't think it's too far a stretch to recognize that the statement "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." means that one cant, either tacitly or directly, endorse ANY religion. This means we can't have a nativity on the grounds of a Government building. Nor the ten commandments or what have you. I vigorously defend the rights of a church or a private citizen to display whatever religious iconography they wish on their own private property. However, it's got to stay away from government buildings, or land owned by the government for public use. Those are the rules.

you didn't quote HIM, did you?
someone wrote:
"when Ronald Reagan freely spoke for the majority by explicitly and passionately conveying belief in Jesus Christ during his presidential Christmas addresses."

We're talking about the same Reagan, the divorcee who attended church maybe a dozen times between 1930 and 1980? The guy who 'found God' only when his pollsters told him it was the only way he could carry the South?

re: 'Holier than thou'
This is such trite, tired and hackneyed excuse by Christians.

The "true" Christians are not here, but just round the corner...come..if you follow me, a little farther, just around this corner.

Please.

I will never meet more than a small sample of human population so this argument is ridiculous at best and, more important, you'll never get Christians to agree on who is truly indicative of a Christian.

I see Christian behavior displayed in the public square daily. This notion that somehow what goes on here and what goes on elsewhere with these "quiet" people has a description: denial.

I put the challenge right back on you. Instead of dragging me to see a group of people you claim are true Christians, I challenge these true Christians to post on Town Hall and demonstrate their emphasis on mercy and forgiveness. I defy you. Here's what I predict. It's impossible and it will never happen because these invisible people are no more real than your invisible God.

It is arrogant for you, by your own religious standards, to judge your fellow Christians posting on here and state that their behavior here is not indicative of common Christian behavior.

You are so in denial.

You belief in the invisible Christian who emphasizes mercy and forgiveness is just as much an article of faith as is your belief in God.

In the real world, where most of us live, Christians posting here on Town Hall exhibit the same behavior as Christians we meet in every other walk of life.

So get over your denial already.

Christians are just as obnoxious as everyone else.




To Vampire's Reflection
As you will.

Remember, Taylor's Valley Baptist Church, Belton, TX. If you're ever in the neighborhood.

Alan-MA #16: You missed a basic point!

The atheist’s sign wasn’t even a “celebration” of The Winter Solstice… It was CLEARLY an attempt to denigrate religion, and in particular Christianity.

If they had a sign that said, "At this season of THE WINTER SOLSTICE may reason prevail” that would have been one thing. BUT NO, they HAD to put on their sign of hate, “There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Norris makes an excellent point… “What profit would there be if…….”

Or, how about just next to the Nativity, the Christians put up a sign that said:

* Atheists had no vital part in the founding of our country!

* Atheists are un-American because they try to suppress theists' freedom of religion by the false notion of separation of church and state!

* Atheists are imprudent because they exhaust too much time trying to convince everyone else of the absence of a being who doesn't exist!

* Atheists are igmos because they try to replace Christmas with winter solstice celebrations, which are ancient pagan festivals entrenched in polytheistic religions!

* Atheism hides behind a false pretense that it is scientific when eminent scientist!

* Atheists are totally blind to the pristine beauty and ordered complexity of creation, so they cannot see the hand of a Creator!

* Atheists denigrate every religion and prayer that ever has been offered!


Bettin' you wouldn't like that much, now would you?

Norris was only partially right when he said “protests would be ubiquitous.” No doubt the riots would be ubiquitous!

Vampire's Reflection
"More than 50% of the Christians posting here are making negative generalizations about atheists: stereotype applicable."
--------------
So are you stereotyping just the Christians on this one thread or ALL Christians everywhere based upon comments from Christians on this one thread? Which is it?

ROFLOL!
"JESUS SAVES... (everyone else takes damage)"

Good one!

re: AliveInHim
"Oh? Who died and made you the judge of mens' hearts? "

You should take your paycheck and go buy a sense of humor. It's called satire. But hey, I understand if you won't believe me.

If you don't believe me, go to Ann Coulter's latest column, a Christian most Extraordinaire, and critize one her "died and made her judge of men's hearts" comments. I guarantee you a chorus of "it's satire and we think it is funny" will greet you from your peers. And you can believe them.

"You will not be asked at your death to account for so-and-so's adulterous or thieving or murderous acts, you will be asked why *you* refused to believe-and will have to bear all responsibility for your answer if you continue to reject the One Who bought you at the cost of His very life. "

Thank God! I will so reject something going by that description outright if I get assurances that all the Popes in history, Jerry Falwell, and a few choice other obnoxious Christians are in fact, in Heaven.

Nothing would be more depressing than going to Hell and finding the likes of Pat Robertson.

I pray every night, "Dear God, save me from your followers." Funny that, the only time he may grant my wish is when I reject him! ha ha!


Fundamental Abstraction

Fundamentally, humans use abstraction to understand complex systems and problems.

I was raised in a family which Humanist/Atheism went back several generations.

When trying to understand the 'Singularity of the Big Bang' (age 32) my abstraction required that several 'Things' be in place.

Those 'Things' were:
--------------------
Energy
Space
Motion
Time
Materials

I found NO scientific evidence for the Origin of any those 'Things' and determined any explanation was philosophic.

I determined four possible explanations.
========================================
1) None of those 'Things' actually existed then or now.
2) All of those 'Things' are eternal without any origin.
3) All of those 'Things' happened by accident from 'Nothing' to something.
4) All of those 'Things' were created by intelligence.

I have asked acquaintances and others for many years to cite a fifth example without combining any of the four I listed.

No one has been able to do that.

Origins is a philosophy - NOT a science!


2)


Still Waiting,
I'm still waiting to hear from an atheist who has the courage of his (lack of), convictions and thus is willing to embrace my challenge.

Surely there is one atheist somewhere who isn't a hypocrite?

Anne - There is a difference between...
Fact and opinion. many of yours (and Chucks) assertions are factually incorrect and can be proven so via objective research. We allow opinion in this country. It is called Free Speech.

An old joke but in need of repeating.
An old woman stepped on her porch every morning and prayed at the top of her lungs " Thank you Jesus for this day"

An atheist moved in next door and upon hearing this day in and out for weeks decided to do his own version.

After hearing her, he would yell from his porch. "There is no Jesus"

This went on for a few more weeks. One day the woman prayed from her porch."Jesus, I am without food this week but I know you will provide for me."

The next moring there were several bags of groceries sitting there on the porch. She prayed loudly "Thank you Jesus for providing my needs."

The atheist neighbor yelled out "Come on...Jesus didn't provide those groceries, I paid for them."

The woman continued her prayer " Thank you again Jesus for these groceries, and for making the devil pay for them."

Robert MN
As regards the signs in Washington, what difference does it make? Nobody is being hurt. An opinion is being expressed. Why the umbrage? Robert

============

Who is being hurt? Many Christians are hurt buy this. It is bad manners, that's why the umbrage.

Would you support Christians placing a sign saying atheists are evil, unholy, and going to hell?

I wouldn't.

If Christians did this you'd all be howling about them "pushing' their Christian religion on you.

Hypocrites.

Their real "god"
This is the way we are setting the scene for mankind’s encounter with the planet. The opposition between the two ideologies that have dominated the 20th century has collapsed, forming their own vacuum and leaving nothing but crass materialism.

It is a law of Nature that any vacuum will be filled and therefore eliminated unless this is physically prevented. “Nature,” as the saying goes, “abhors a vacuum.” And people, as children of Nature, can only feel uncomfortable, even though they may not recognize that they are living in a vacuum. How then is the vacuum to be eliminated?

It would seem that humans need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together in the vacuum; such a motivation must be found to bring the divided nations together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one invented for the purpose.

New enemies therefore have to be identified.
New strategies imagined, new weapons devised.

The common enemy of humanity is man.

In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself.

The old democracies have functioned reasonably well over the last 200 years, but they appear now to be in a phase of complacent stagnation with little evidence of real leadership and innovation

Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely. Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected representatives to make competent decisions at the right time.”


You know Chuck.....
This is simply the cultural war heating up.....

re: western bondbeam
Actually I was just making a point that a sample size of one does not invalidate a stereotype.

But on the aggregate, I've never had the stereotype of Christians are more interested in using their Religion to control others they don't like rather than practicing said religion for self-improvement invalidated. Not ever.

And Christians are so full-of-it they somehow think I'm a bigot because the truth is unacceptable.

Religion is far more often used as an instrument of control over the non-religious than it is used as an instrument of self-discipline. Thus, Christians today are perfectly ok with getting divorce but not gay marrige, but divorce is forbidden by their own God in far more demonstrable and forceful places in the Bible than gay relationships. But hey divorce is legal and gay marriage is not.

Reality, here is a stereotype you can take to the bank: religion is primarily used to oppress those the religious don't approve of and is rarely if ever about the improvement of those who practice the religion.



Hey Mother....
It's time for atheists to back up their words with actions:

take your work home......

::::::::Well, I work in the Pentagon, what I work with is classified, so if I brought it home, I'd go to prison. Sorry. No can do. I guess you win this round! Curses! (twirls moustache)::::::::::

Hold onto your secular principles and insist that you'll gather with family for purely sentimental reasons on a randomly chosen date that has NO religious connotations of any kind.

:::::::: Actually, this one is a false premise. Christmas Trees and Santa Claus and his Reindeer are directly related to Christmas and have as much to do with Christ as the Easter Bunny does. You don't get my conceit on this one. It's really easy to celebrate Christmas without a single whiff of religion. :::::::::::::

Third, as part of your commitment to act on your secular principles give no Christmas gifts and accept no Christmas gifts. ......

::::::See above, plus I have no kids....no widdle childwen to make sad....:::::::

Final Score:
Motherof4 - 1
Stonesean - 2

Challange met, and bested.

Thanks!


stonesean
I also don't think it's too far a stretch to recognize that the statement "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." means that one cant, either tacitly or directly, endorse ANY religion. This means we can't have a nativity on the grounds of a Government building. Nor the ten commandments or what have you. stonesean
======================

This is where we will disagree.

Establishment was a carefully chosen word. Establishment means congress can not PICK a religion and make it law. It doesn't mean we can't have religious symbols on public land - after all technically the public owns the land. Jews and Christians have over all shared this holiday quite well.

In addition America has celebrated Christmas as a federal Holiday since 1870. Christmas has become a part of our American heritage.

To eliminate Christmas is to eliminate American tradition.

Regardless of faith/non-faith isn't it nice to see people celebrating together during the Holidays in OUR shared American tradition?

Freedom means never having to "practice" a religion to share in the celebration of one.

Mother of 4 "challenge"
Your "challenge" is ridiculous. Like everyone else, atheists take off on legal HOLIDAYS as opposed to "religious" HOLY DAYS. Atheists don't take off on Muharram, Candlemas, or Shavuot.

Why don't you accept a mirror-image challenge and refuse to allow your family to participate in any Winter holidays since they were lifted from the pagan Roman Saturnalia. You should be eager to do this since most biblical scholars believe Jesus' actual birth took place in the Spring.

As to gifts and goodies, forget it. The religious ideal is to sacrifice, weep, and repent. Goodies strictly forbidden. Instead you and your kids can remain true to your religious beliefs by rejecting crass commercialism and spending the secular Xmas holidays doing penance and reflecting on your inherent sinfulness. :-)

To Vampire's Reflection
On second thought, I really have to ask this question:
What is your definition of 'Christian'?

Conservatives are hypocrites
What hypocrites.

When an atheist complains about the 10 Commandments on gov property, what do conservatives say? "Too bad! You don't have a right not to be offended. Don't look at it if you don't like it!"

Hey, conservatives! Don't like the FFRF sign? Too bad!! You don't have a right not to be offended!!

Norris sounds like whiny wimp. Someone get him a tissue. Hey, Chuck, don't like the sign? DON'T LOOK AT IT!!!

Have to disagree on one point
Regarding your comment "Anyone can spew disdain for religion, but is that what America's Founders created our rights for", I must disagree. Our rights do not extend from our government. Our founding fathers never operated under the assumption that it was governments that created rights but instead that they protected them and enforced the free exercise thereof. Hence the opening words of the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

They understood that those rights which are called "unalienable" and later encapsulated in the Bill of Rights are given to us by God - The freedom to worship, to speak freely, to protect ourselves, etc, and that elected officials have a responsibility to protect those rights on our behalf.

Part of the problem of our government now is that it has subtly shifted to the stance that IT grants, rather than the guards, our rights.

That being said, there is indeed a more militant, anti-Christian (notice that they haven't done something similar on the Holy Days of other religions, like, say, Islam) unbelief in our society. However, the most effective way to win the so-called "culture wars" is not simply having this person in office or that judge on the bench or some law passed or overturned. No, the only way to truly transform our society is not to just talk about it but to be about it.

Jo-Bad Manners are not illegal
I could care less if anybody posted a sign saying atheists are evil, unholy, and going to hell. My guess is that atheists don't believe in Hell :)

Aren't we supposed to consider the source and respond accordingly? You know, water off a duck's back? Sticks and Stones, etc.?

Their New Religion
The acceleration of critical trends and cross-impacts among them indicates that the ‘window of opportunity’ for pulling out of the present global crisis and breaking through to a more peaceful and sustainable world is likely to be no more than four to five years from the end of 2008. This is close in time to the Mayan 2012 prophecy for the end of the current world. The period around the end of 2012 is likely to be a turbulent one for this and other reasons. Predictions coming from the physical sciences foresee disturbances in the geomagnetic, electromagnetic and related fields that embed the planet causing significant damage to telecommunications and impacting many aspects of human activity and health. For the esoteric traditions the end of 2012 will be the end of the known world, although the more optimistic intepretations speak of a new world taking the place of the old.”
This may seem very strange, many leading global warming activists openly advocate earth-reverence and other New Age philosophies. Gaia, Global Warming, and Global Governance are intricately entwined, if one truly believes in Gaia, and that she is being fatally harmed by the current system, then a new system of global governance and control would appear to be the only answer. Global Warming provides the ideal 'enemy' to bring about this objective. It is easy for these global elitists to talk about sacrifice, wrenching transformation, population reduction and eliminating the use of fossil fuels but the implications are truely horrendous.

Even if you think this is all nonsense I would ask you to at least read these quotes and excerpts, and think about the implications of their agenda. As Al Gore said in the closing sentence of his statement after he won the Nobel Peace Prize ... "This is just the beginning."

As always, the "freedom from religion"

people are clueless....

http://www.faithofourfathers.net/index.html

"America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

"All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to kn