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Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Chuck Norris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Thanksgiving - A Violation of Church and State?
by Chuck Norris
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Is the government's observance of Thanksgiving a violation of the separation of church and state?

This past week, a Newsweek/Washington Post editorial labeled presidential Thanksgiving Day proclamations as "cracks in the wall of separation." The author explained, "The problem with these proclamations, it seems to me, is that they pave the way for public acceptance of gross violations of the constitutional separation of church and state." What?!

Forget for a moment that nearly every president since George Washington (and the Continental Congress before him) has given Judeo-Christian proclamations for Thanksgiving (except between 1816 and 1861) and also has declared other national days of fasting and prayer. Secularists, such as the author of the editorial, get almost giddy every time they highlight that Thomas Jefferson rejected the notion of proclaiming Thanksgiving spirituals and prayers. But the truth is Jefferson was far from the modern-day secularist they make him out to be.

Sure, Jefferson was adamant (as we all should be) that there should be no federal subscription to any one form of religious sectarianism. That is largely what the First Amendment is all about -- establishing the free exercise of religion and restricting sectarian supremacy in government, as well as government intrusion in churches.

But secularists make two grave mistakes when it comes to Jefferson and the First Amendment. First, they misconstrue his understanding of separation. Second, they overlook how Jefferson himself endorsed and intermingled religion and politics, even during his two terms as president. Let me explain, as I believe it is a timely reminder, given that we are experiencing a new round of battles in our Christmas culture war, too.

The phrase "separation of church and state" actually comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists. He told them that no particular Christian denomination was going to have a monopoly in government. His words, "a wall of separation between Church & State," were not written to remove all religious practice from government or civic settings, but to prohibit the domination and even legislation of religious sectarianism.

Proof that Jefferson was not trying to rid government of religious (specifically Christian) influence comes from the fact that he endorsed the use of government buildings for church meetings and services, signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians that allotted federal money to support the building of a Catholic church and to pay the salaries of the church's priests, and repeatedly renewed legislation that gave land to the United Brethren to help their missionary activities among the American Indians.

Some might be completely surprised to discover that just two days after Jefferson wrote his famous letter citing the "wall of separation between Church & State," he attended church in the place where he always had as president: the U.S. Capitol. The very seat of our nation's government was used for sacred purposes. As the Library of Congress' Web site notes, "It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church." Does that sound like someone who was trying to create an impenetrable wall of separation between church and state?

Let's face the present Thanksgiving facts. President Bush likely will give the last explicit Judeo-Christian Thanksgiving proclamation that Americans will hear for the next four to eight years, as President-elect Obama likely will coddle a form of godliness in his Thanksgiving addresses (if he indeed gives them) that appeases the masses with a deity that fits every politically correct dress.

But I'm an optimist. And because so much attention is being given right now by the media and the president-elect himself regarding his parallels to and lessons learned from President Abraham Lincoln, I recommend Obama heed Lincoln's Thanksgiving wisdom. Don't mince or water down the God of the Pilgrims, as is being done in public schools across this land through the retelling of the first Thanksgiving.

Obama doesn't even need a speechwriter for Thanksgiving 2009. He simply can recite Lincoln's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, in which Lincoln thanked the Almighty for America's bountiful blessings and providential care despite enduring a war and grave economic hardships. The content seems divinely timed for even such a wintry season as our own:

"No human counsel hath devised, nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the most high God, who while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. … I do, therefore, invite my fellow citizens … to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father, who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that, while offering up the ascriptions justly due to him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged and fervently implore the interposition of the almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the divine purposes, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and union."

Whatever your religious persuasion, don't hesitate this Thanksgiving to bow your head, give thanks to God, and follow Lincoln's advice. And when you do, don't forget to say a prayer for our troops and their families. While they serve us so we can serve our Thanksgiving feasts safely, the least we can do is serve them a little honor and remembrance.

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About The Author
Chuck Norris is a columnist and impossible to kill.
 
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Chuck Norris?
I never thought Chuck was such a fukcing doosh bag.

Someone needs to divide him by zero.

sir aslan- your link
Your link is a perfect example of scientists, or, so called scientists, that permeate their work with their political beliefs.

F. William Engdahl who authored that link is well known. He despises the religious right, Sarah Palin, the USA in general,and he lives in Germany.

This man writes to an audience best described as global ativists who view the USA and the west as the root of all problems.

Even his wikipedia entry neutality is disputed.

The man has written for the last 30 years. He is a remaining 1960s radical in the Ton Hayden, Bill Ayers model. Became legitimate, but never stopped his radical teachings.

Bottom line, your link is junk. Some truth, mostly junk and assumptions rather than facts.


Chuck, check out this link....

Jim
Correction to your little Akagi lesson. The Akagi didn't sink, it was scuttled. After being hit by one or two (the number is debated) bombs from SBDs from the Enterprise, the bombs exploded in the hanger deck and set AV fuel and ordinance a blaze. The fires were unable to be controlled. Later in the day a near-miss made it impossible to steer. It burned through the night of June 4 and in the early morning of June 5 it was ordered scuttled by Yamamoto. Four Kagero-class destroyers fired torpedoes into her causing her to sink. Her wreckage has never been found nor the Hiryu or Soryu's. The Yorktown and Kaga have been found. To be precise none of the Japanese CVs at Midway were sunk by the Americans--all were scuttled after battle damage was too severe for the ships to be saved.


Jim
"You selected that name only because it fits your opinion and memory of members of the US Military being killed, fighting some of the worst monsters the world has ever known."

While the Akagi no doubt did cause deaths of Americans, you can give credit to the Hiryu for most of them in regards to Japanese CVs and CVLs as it was a Nakajima B5N that dropped the bomb that killed the Arizona and over 1100 of its crew. And as I stated before, its commander was Tamon Yamaguchi who was Japan's most gifted carrier commander and should have been the one to lead the atatck on 12-7 instead of Nagumo. He was aggressive and astute--all the things that Nagumo was not. He was though a tad wreckless and perhaps could have escaped with the Hiryu intact at the end of Midway rather than pursuing an attack that was doomed to failure. Ah the drawbacks of Bushido. Before he died at Midway he was seen as a possible replacement for Yamamoto as the commander of the combined fleet. After Midway, if he had lived, who knows, do you want a Japanese naval version of John B. Hood as your overall commander? But for Pearl, having a commander that was conservative, did not believe in carrier warfare and it seems a tad timid was not the best choice in my view. Nagumo was the wrong commander for that mission--the refusal to launch a third wave to target the tank farms and dry docks is amazing. yes he was worried about the US carriers that weren't in port and the subs and he was low on AV fuel and weaponary and he didn't want to get caught by American carriers deep in American waters or lose a carrier from an American sub. The conservative approach would to see 12-7 as a great success and return home, but on that day Japan would have been served better by a more aggressive commander like Yamaguchi.



45--One last thing Part II
My attitude toward the US is mostly one of apathy or benign indifference, but dealing with uber patriots like Jim and those that seem to have an almost Nazi-like desire to procliam the US as the greatest, best in all things country that has ever existed or will ever exist sometimes does drive me toward a dislike of at least THOSE Americans.

However, if you'd take off your super patriot glasses for a second you'd find my posts are hardly anti-American. Apathy and dislike aren't the same emotion.

Also as Jim has pointed out, the name is AKAGI just like the carrier. I know the underline distorts the g to look like a q, but it is a g.

45--one more thing--Part I
Japan was indeed trying to build an empire--the state was actually called then as now the Empire of Japan. Though what it was doing in Asia in the late 30s was building what it called a "co-prosperity sphere." But Japan was hardly alone, Russia, Germany, the Netherlands, The British Empire, France and the United States were building their own empires in Asia. What the US did in the Philippines during the Filipino-American War while on a smaller scale was little different from what Japan had been doing in China. Japan's stated goal (which was not the same as its real, primary goal) was to expel the western colonial powers from Asia and that was the effect of the war. 15 years after the war, few colonial holdings were left that before the war were in the hands of the Americans and Europeans. I doubt though this was the type of de-colonization Japan had in mind in say 1938.

And by the end of the war, yes, the Japanese defenders were fighting to protect their homes--Iwo Jima, Okinawa, the Kurils and if not for the Soviets (mostly) Kyushu and perhaps the Kanto Plain of Honshu.

You think the average defender of Okinawa or Iwo was thinking about building the Empire? Or defending home and hearth? Think the Texans fighting at Allatoona Pass, Georgia (it was your buddy John Hood that sent them there) in October of 1864 were thinking about saving slavery? Also, it is imperial and not empirial.


45
"WE ATTACKED THEM FIRST!"

They have a valid point. And who exactly is "we" anyway? You kicking around in 1941 were you?

The US in the summer of 1941 cut off all oil supplies to Japan (the US being basically Japan's sole supplier of oil, gasoline and AV fuel) and froze Japanese assets in the US and began supplying the ROC (which Japan had been in a bitter war with since at least 1937) with economic and military aid. Yes this was in response to Japan's incursion into Indo-China and to a lesser degree its actions in China (though the US basically did nothing about Japan's actions in China including Nanjing until Japan decided to start attacking western interests outside of stopping AV fuel over 87 octane in 1938).

If the US had a total oil embargo against it, how long do you think the US would wait before it would do something to get the oil turned back on? Didn't Nixon start making plans to take the Saudi oil fields back in 1973?

Japan has a valid claim that the US starting waging war against it months before Pearl Harbor. You can counter US actions were just in regards to what the IJA did in China and the move into Indochina and threats on the NEI, but Pat Buchanan I would gather would argue was it the US business to get involved in a conflict between China and Japan or the fact that one colonial power (Japan) was now attacking another colonial power (France) and threatening to attack yet another (Netherlands) was the concern of the US? My bet he would say what Japan was doing in China and Indochina was between Japan and China and between Japan and France and not any concern of the US. Isn't he one of TH's Uber Americans?

Terry
"We have no idea about history, because it's history."

100% false. However, history is not static meaning that you don't know everything about an event and often as new data comes out--new records found, archives opened, archaeological discoveries, etc., then what was once known as "fact" gets challenged, revised, etc. While the blind here will fight this to the grave (this means you Jim), new evidence over the last few years indicates that the Soviet invasion of Manchukuo had more to do with Japan's surrender than the atomic bombs. So the "fact" of the atomic bombs ending the war is now an open debate among historians and that is how history works. Some witnesses to the bomb hitting the Arizona at Pearl for example said the bomb that killed it went down its smoke stack, but NPS divers examining the wreck proved this not the be the case.

Also, we'd know if the Pilgrims were fat too. Burials tell many stories including how fat and healthy a population was. I am sorry to report that history as a discipline doesn't work as you claim it does.

Jim
First, you have no idea why I selected Akagi. And while the IJA engaged in some pretty monsterous acts and the Kempeitai were a very nasty lot and in many respects little different from the worst the Nazis produced, the IJN fought with honor and could hardly be called monsters.

Second, as for my name I suppose I should have picked Isuzu or Nisshin over Akagi as these have a greater connection to the initial reason for my choice of the name. However, I do enjoy how it sets off the more Jingoistic types on TH such as yourself. Most would think Isuzu was a car and be clueless in regards to Nisshin, so for the rile up the flag-wavers effect, Akagi is a much better choice.

Why should I pick Stalin? He was on your side during the war and the US pushed hard for him to enter the war (in violation of the non-aggression pact he had singed with Japan) until Trinity when Truman felt Stalin would no longer be needed. Why should I pick someone that stabbed Japan in the back? Again, he was your pal. Hitler, well, Japan allied with Hitler the same reason they allied with the British Empire in WWI. Thought Hitler was going to win the war and Japan would be in a position to pick up the Asian European colonies. While it was a popular move in the army, it wasn't such in the navy. Yamamoto stating that Japan was acting like a "presumptuous schoolboy" by joining Germany and Italy. Such criticisms were not welcomed by many including those in the army and put his life at risk which lead the high command to send him to sea as commander of the combined fleet in order to make it more difficult to assassinate him.

Read "Men In Black"!!!
Mark Levin (aka The Great One) made it VERY clear that there is NO such doctrine as "separation of Church and state". At least not as the god haters see it.

The Anglican Church WAS an official Church. It was the Church of England. Calvinists, Jews, Catholics, and everyone else was TAXED to support it whether they prayed there or not. THAT is what Jefferson wanted to avoid. Remember the free expression of religion aspect.

YOU PEOPLE like to chop that off every year when ACLU stormtroopers march into some small town that can't afford the legal battle because some atheist turd was "offended" by a creche or menorah.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Chucks old & took too many kicks head
More Us v Them culture bull.

Chuck you're a true American, not like other scum Americans. We DO have separation of Church and state that is clear. Stop it.

You are pushing 80? After all the botox and plastic surgery you look OK, but your brain is OLD, too many kicks to the head. Stop writing about politics. NO ONE CARES what a D-list actor/marshal arts competitor from 50 yrs ago says. You found Christ. Congrats. I found Christ 42 years ago.

BTW marshal arts is for communist, NOT American. Chuck is a worshiper of far east NOT american culture. He's a commie pinko Nazi! (My point, dividing america into US verses THEM is stupid.)


YOU & BILLO ON FOX MAKE IT A BIG DEAL TO PANDER TO OLD PEOPLE & THE STUPID, FEAR MONGERING!

GOOD OPEN THE DOOR TO MUSLIMS & ISLAMIC LAW. IDIOTS! GOP's unholy and sacrilegious union with haters like the late Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and James Dobson have hurt America and religion. When some politishian wants to swear on the Quaran, don't whine about it.

You take a little issue about a Christmas Tree at the court house or Airport and turn it into some all out attack on God.

If your faith is that weak you need to see your preacher and study your bible more. Christmas is a secular holiday which has a deeper meaning to believers, like my self but AT HOME and AT MY CHURCH, not the shopping mall.

STOP IT. Leave the atheist alone. That is why they are mad, all this overt religious rhetoric in politics AND WHY THE FOUNDING FATHERS SEPERATED GOV & GOD.

You can't take God out of the PEOPLE. That is true but leave God out of Gov.

The GOV is not Church with religious dogma or theology. Heck how many Churches do we have? Christians can't agree and you want that in Gov?

Gay Marriage, Terry Schiavo, abstinents only no birth control sex-ed for kids and stem cell research? STOP IT! Debate with logic, common sense not religious dogma.

Akagi
Yes, we can read where they wrote "we ate potato pie". No problem with that at all. But then someone will speculate that they must have eaten potato pie because they had a penchant for potatoes, which would then mean that their diet was heavy in starch, thus meaning they were probably overweight, which led to health problems...responsible for their early deaths.

That speculation then grows legs and after a period of time it becomes a fact that: The Pilgrims were obese and died early deaths!

Then years later someone comes along and wants to ban potatoes. Citing the downfall of the Pilgrims and reminding us that we should "learn from history" so as not to "repeat the mistakes of the past".

And how did this all happen? Because someone read that the Pilgrims "ate potatoe pie" and starting speculating as to why. When the truth; unknown to the speculator, was that they really couldn't stand potato pie...they were just trying to be polite to their host.

We have no idea about history, because it's history. We can better predict the future than we can account for the past.

Get lost

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 184
Date: Nov 26, 2008 - 10:12 AM EST

As I have pointed out before to you, Akagi is not simply the name of a carrier.
============

But why didn't you adopt a more well known name, and one that fits you even better, such as Hitler, Stalin, Nazi?

You selected that name only because it fits your opinion and memory of members of the US Military being killed, fighting some of the worst monsters the world has ever known.


Jim:
In 1995, fifty years after Japan surrendered, someone made a check in Japan about the war and how it was taught.

Interestingly enough, over half the population of Japan were convinced, because of what was taught in schools, that the U.S. STARTED THE WAR! WE ATTACKED THEM FIRST! Therefore, they were only defending themselves from OUR Emperial attacks and were NOT the ones who were trying to build an Empire.

Akaqi is evidently one of them from what I've seen of his writing. And for someone who dislikes the U.S. as much as he seems to do from his comments, I'm surprised he hasn't gone back to Japan.

Jim
As I have pointed out before to you, Akagi is not simply the name of a carrier. If you are really interested I have many of the other contexts listed at my blog.

Also Yamashita wasn't in the Philippines until the very end of the war there--he had nothing to do with Bataan. He was known as the Tiger of Malaya for defeating the British forces in Singapore (the city they said could never be taken). He called the residents "Citizens of Japan" but those with higher paygrades had different ideas and he was basically exiled to the Kwantung Army and Manchukuo for the rest of the war until 1944. He arrived in the Philippines just weeks before the Americans did, he had little control over the troops he was in charge of as the Americans destroyed his command and control ability. He had nothing to do with the crimes committed in the Philippines during his tenure. He was hardly the worst army officer Japan had. His execution was a crass example of victor's justice. Homma is a more complicated case in regards to warcrimes, but as for Yamashita there is no question. His execution was not justified.

As for trying to kill your brother, that was their job. And for starting the war, while Japan was mostly to blame in this regard, the US was hardly innocent or blameless.

Reply #127
I did quote his letter, if you think I did not then perhaps you could post the "right" one.

Ignorance is a terrible thing, to bad there is so much of it in these rooms.

Sorry about the type font
on the earlier reply. That was obviously a cut and paste, so I don’t know what it was. Here is a better one.

jim Location: CA
Reply # 180
Date: Nov 25, 2008 - 11:32 PM EST

Akagi, a 34,364-ton aircraft carrier, was flagship of the carrier striking force during the Battle of Midway. On 4 June 1942, while operating northward of Midway, Akagi was hit by dive bombers from USS Enterprise (CV-6) and set afire, and sank.


An one more

The following is from my Brother-in-laws Autobiography.

I was there (Philippines) when the war was ended, and I was there too when Japanese General Yomasheitia was still there - he was one of the Japanese generals in charge of the 8th Army, and was one of the Japanese generals who conducted the Bataan Death March. It was my pleasure, along with some of the rest, to bring him down out of the hills as a captive.

Later on I had the good fortune of being at General Homma's and General Yomasheitia's trials. I saw them both convicted of war crimes, and saw General Homma be convicted to death by the firing squad. Yomasheitia was convicted, and executed by hanging. General Yomasheitia was called The Malayan Tiger. He was one of the worst of the Japanese generals, and was in charge of the Bataan Death March. That was the reason Yomasheitia was hung. The most shameful death for a Japanese to die. Took away all the honor they ever had at home.

To A k a g i, the sunken ship

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 172
Date: Nov 25, 2008 - 9:26 PM EST

You don’t like it when I use the word Japs, but you think it is OK for you to say you wanted my brother to be killed.

The slimy Japs started the war, we didn’t. A few hundred Japs bombed Pearl Harbor, so did we declare war on those few hundred? No way, we declared war on their mothers, their grandmothers, their sisters, and every one of their type, until they all gave up. Maybe I should say that we missed a few. Needed more Atomic bombs, and sooner.

If all these years after the war, you are someone who wants to use a name of a ship that was used to kill Americans during WW II, I don’t see why you aren’t banned from TH, and from the USA for the rest of your life.

---
T h e A k a g i w a s a n a i r c r a f t c a r r i e r s e r v i n g w i t h t h e I m p e r i a l J a p a n e s e N a v y d u r i n g W o r l d W a r I I . A k a g i p l a y e d a m a j o r p a r t i n t h e A t t a c k o n P e a r l H a r b o r , b u t w a s s u n k a l o n g w i t h t h r e e o t h e r l a r g e c a r r i e r s b y d i v e b o m b e r s f r o m U S c a r r i e r s E n t e r p r i s e a n d Y o r k t o w n i n t h e B a t t l e o f M i d w a y .
---


Thanks For Respect
For now we have a new President-elect.In the spirit of reaching across the aisle.We owe it to the Democrats to show their President the exact same kind of RESPECT and LOYALTY That they have shown our recent Repuplican President.

Support is crucial.
You do NOT commit forces in a pitched battle unless you are prepared to support them as needed. The senior Japanese commanders seemed to have a fatalistic approach to warfare which is incomprehensible to me.

I WANT my forces to fight, win, survive and fight some more, NOT go out in a blaze of glory while handing inevitable victory to the other side.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

The He...
I refer to in the post below is of course Baron Nishi and not Yamaguchi who of course died at Midway in June of 1942, years before Iwo Jima.

Wrat Wrangler
I am glad you aren't the only one on TH that understands how awful Nagumo was as a commander. Tamon Yamaguchi should have led the attack. Japan's best carrier commander, he was astute and aggressive. All the things Nagumo wasn't. Sadly for Japan he went down with the Hiryu at Midway. The Bushido code and all you know.

He was not at Nanjing which is in East-Central China (Jiangsu Province). But in Manchukuo until he was sent to Iwo Jima in 1944. Unlike the movie by Eastwood, He and Kuribayashi weren't all that close.

As for Japanese mistakes, you also forget the piecemeal utilization of troops during the American invasion of the Solomon's. Would Yamamoto sending the entire force had made a difference, who knows, but sending them piecemeal was a bad move. Something that has plagued other commanders--e.g. P.G.T. Beauregard at Shiloh.


Could you imagine:
If they had let McAuliffe and his boys at Bastogne be slaughtered because they had to "allocate resources elsewhere"? Gonads would have been strung up all over the Capitol starting with Ike's!!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Dei Gloria!!

Not bad considering.
Kuribayashi did wonders with what he had and pi$$ poor support from home to boot. I never understand the Japanese tendency to cut off commanders in the field and leave them to die with no hope of support. Almost as confusing as Nogumo's actions at Pearl. Too timid by half.

Then there was another peculiarity, the practice NOT committing their first line ships when they could have made a difference then sacrificing them needlessly later as with Yamato and Musashi.

Wasn't the Baron also responsible for the Nanking atrocities? I recall that a Japanese aristocrat was in command and let a lower level general officer fall on his sword taking responsibility.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Dei Gloria!!

Wrat Wrangler
Lots in Georgia too.

Jim
Me: Also Jim, the term "J*p" is not simply short for Japanese, but a term on the same level as "wet *ack or g**k.

You: In your opinion. When they were trying to kill my brother in Iwo Jima, and my brother in-law in the Philippines, and when they bombed Pearl Harbor, they were then and are now, Japs

No Jim. In the opinion of normal, clear thinking people. Go to dictionary.com and look it up. You will find it defines it as "Disparaging and Offensive" and it uses the same warning for other words like wet *ack and g**k and ch*nk and SP*c, the only one that has a stronger warning is the N-word where they add the extra qualifier "extremely" to "Disparaging and Offensive."

As for Iwo, oh well I guess Tadamichi Kuribayashi and Baron Takeichi Nishi's men should have done a better job.

As a military target and since the US had basically been engaging in acts of war with Japan for months, I don't think you have any legitimate complaints about the attack on 12-7. I suppose they should have given you more warning which was the plan. I suppose the moral to that is hire professional typists when you want to get it done on time. High level diplomats aren't going to exactly be great typists.




You forgot smart and airborne!!
Wild turkeys are nothing like their INBRED domesticated brethren!! They are cagey and if they had any sense of smell we'd never know what turkey tastes like. They have VERY keen eyesight and nothing wrong with their hearing.

Ever hunt them? You camouflage everything but your eyes and then don't blink! They can also fly but prefer to walk. They're thick as flies in lower NY and CT also.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Dei Gloria!!

Hey MoniQue...
...put a cork in it.

Thanksgiving was variously practiced
by different states and localities until the 4th Thurs. in Nov. was settled on as a national date.

If people don't want to be religious about Thanksigiving, they can just overeat and belch while they watch football games.

People who don't want to recognize Christ in Christmas should receive coal in their stockings.

Hey MoniQue...
...put a cork in it.

Jefferson
Jefferson had his own version of the Bible printed-- a version that edited out all the supernatural stuff.

Thursday
Chad:

That was due to Lincoln in 1863 and those after him just continued the day.

Sophie
She reminds me of someone who wants to be white. Perhaps when she was called those names back as a child, it scarred her. Years ago, Franz Fanon in "Black Faces, White Masks" talked about this as psychologically, black West Indians tried to fit in to a white France and how it damaged them from a pyschological point of view.

She seems overly eager to justify ill treatment of Asians, uses racially charged language to depict Asians and is of course married to a white guy. The last point doesn't mean much until you connect it to all the other stuff. She seems someone very uneasy in her own skin. She is the textbook example of a twinkie. Someone trying to be more white, than the whites themselves.

To quote a line from "A Soldiers Story as CJ said in reference to MSGT Waters "Any man ain't sure where he belong, gotta' be in a whole lotta pain." Waters and Malkin seem a great deal a like to me. I'm not one of them, I support internment, I'm not one of them, I call them names. I'm better than them, I'm really white!"




Thanksgivings Hebrew Origins
The Puritans had a high litteracy rate and what they did at night was read the Bible.

Sukkot or the feast of tabernakles is a Hebrew Bible foreshadow of the Millenial Kingdom of the Messiah on earth in Zecahriah 14:7.

Many churches are rediscovering the Jewish roots of early Christianity and can tell you all about the jewish callendar of holidays and how they forshadow God's prophetic calendar for the end times.

Why thursday? Thor was a pagan thunder diety. Maybe it is the lightning from east to west stuff in Mt 24:27 converging with the way feast of tabernacles is about seeing God in nature.

America is suffering
America is suffering unlawful deception from the Alinsky group.
Group u$urp$ power on January 20th—the constitution violated.
The United States Supreme Court alone can relieve this outrage.

example: Bogus Selective Service System FOIA Registration?
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_d id_n.html

IF THEY HATE IT I AM FOR IT
FIND ANYTHING THE ACLU, NAACP, LULAC, AND THE OTHER DOMESTIC TERRORIST CIVIL RIGHTS GROUPS ARE AGAINST I AM FOR. FINDING ANY OF THEM GIVING THANKS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY, THE SECRET SERVICE, FBI, AND THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES THEY HAVE YET TO CORRUPT AND DEFILE. NEITHER WILL WE FIND THEM SEEKING TO HAVE UNION BOSSES OUT OF ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE ADVISORS AND CONSULTANTS IN EDUCATION BEING REMOVED TO BETTER CHILDERN EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES? IS IT BECAUSE OF THE DOMESTIC TERRORIST OF LIBERAL HATE ORGANIZATIONS?

ACLU--Ender
Give me some examples exactly and I'll tell you if I support it or not.

A lost faith eh? Sounds pretty mocking to me. You sound like one of those T.A.s to me. But you are from Alabama, you know the best thing that comes out of Alabama? I-20.


Jim
The difference was that the Germans and Italians that were interned ALL were connected to German and Italian groups organized by their governments inside the US such as the German Bund. Not true with the Japanese who were all interned simply because they happened to be Japanese. There were 11,000 Germans interned, only 1,500 Italians were. There were 150,000 Japanese and many were Nisei Jim meaning they were American citizens just like you and the reason the Issei weren't is because that the racist US immigration and naturalization laws of the time forbid any Asian from being naturalized. The first time that was allowed was in 1942 for the Chinese, being allies and all pretty improper to ban them from entering the US and becoming citizens as was the law at the time. For the Japanese, not until 1952 with the passage of the McCarran-Walter Act.

Also Jim, the term "J*p" is not simply short for Japanese, but a term on the same level as "wet *ack or g**k. If you don't want to look like a bigoted, stupid redneck, I'd not use it.

Well since Michelle has called for the internment of Americans of the Muslim faith, supported the internment of Japanese-Americans, used terms toward Chinese-Americans such as stinky tofu, and since you use racist terms for Asians yourself, you and twinkie girl would fit right in I'd think. And yes the term twinkie isn't a nice term, but a label in my view she has earned...many times over.

Questions for Akagi:
1. What exactly, other than that you stick around and continue to comment, differentiates you from your description of a troll? You too seem to make statements designed to incite ire and dissent - witness your own 'theocratic authoritarians' comment about the populace of Townhall.com.

2. If a captive audience in a public school isn't valid grounds for Christian Witness (which you seem to be implying it is not), then may I request to know whether or not you stand against the same usage of said captive audience by the ACLU and other organizations which are vehemently anti-christian in their nature?

And again, I say Sticks and stones

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 142
Date: Nov 25, 2008 - 3:57 PM EST
Subject: Jim
Of all the cases of Americans spying for Japan every single one was white.
===

I didn’t say I was more intelligent than the SCOTUS, I just told you what I was told in the early 1950s. One was an old man, the others were teenagers at the time. I had no reason not to believe them.

And the other thing, since the Jap Military was so inhuman with their “enemies,” what makes you think that at least some of the ones who came here, of the same generation, and the same background, would not be much the same.

Germans and the Italians were imprisoned for the same reason. I knew Germans in the Chicago area, who never got over their background and love for Germany, and while they didn’t like what Hitler did (When they found out about it after the War), they were much in favor of German winning the war, at least in the beginning.

Again I say Michele is a Sweetie, and I have never read anything she wrote that I didn’t agree with.


A few more comments:
@Just Another Jones:
Thank you for your rapid response; I apologize that mine was not as quick. I find myself a bit confused by your last line, however. Would you mind explaining it to me?

@Akagi 1:
Sorry, who exactly is doing the mocking? Most Christians I know have pity, or sorrow, for those lost in a false faith, but not mockery. (I save my own mocking for politics - it's easier there; you just hold up a mirror to what's really happening.)

@Sophie:
I believe Renny's point may be accurate: Consider how many of the settlements of early America were founded by those seeking religious freedom. Including from other American colonies; consider the history of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

@Akagi 2:
Baptists aren't Protestants, properly. Protestants are those who belong to denominations descended from the Reformation; Baptists are not - their spiritual ancestors were the Anabaptists, who were never part of the Catholic Church and had nothing to do with the Reformation (except maybe to serve as an example for the Reformers).

Silver Lion
Since this is no longer 1787 and the US is no longer 99.9% Christian but has millions and millions of non-Christians, it is a pretty bad idea for government to start mulking around in the area of religion as prayers, momuments and the likes are likely to upset someone and as you can see in other countries, sectarian conflict is something you don't really want to encourage. That being said, I think those that aren't Christian can having thicker skins. A baby Jesus on the front lawn of the capitol really isn't going to be the dawn of a Christian fascist state now. A captive audience in a public school, well that is a horse of a different color.

Terry
Your points about history are weak to say the least.

When a person at a historical event writes in a journal "we ate potato pie" we can be pretty sure they ate potato pie. We also know what they grew from accounts and the archaeological record also adds to what they ate. For example, we know what your average soldier in the civil war ate.

Scholars also read more than just books and not a single book. As for who cares, well, on this we can agree, I am not an expert in colonial history or the Puritans, don't care what they ate. I wouldn't think about Plymouth once during Thanksgiving or the Pilgrims or the Indians there at the time. Some who are experts though do care.


Says it all for me.............
"His words, "a wall of separation between Church & State," were not written to remove all religious practice from government or civic settings, but to prohibit the domination and even legislation of religious sectarianism."

What part does'nt the demowits understand?

What difference does it make...
...what Pilgrims did 300 years ago? And the truth is, we have no idea what the Pilgrims did or didn't do. Unless you are a time-traveler, your only knowledge of the Pilgrims comes from stories and accounts, piled upon stories and accounts...from folks who wrote stories. And they call this: History. And once it's called history, it then becomes: fact. And then more and more is extrapolated from the so-called facts. Those then get passed around until they become "Historical Facts". And then serious authors start writing books about what the Pilgrims did...based on: Historical Facts.

And then a so-called "scholar" comes along and reads ONE of the books and becomes an expert on the Pilgrims. He then teaches what he knows about the Pilgrims, based on one book that was written off of supposed "historical facts" that came from conclusions and extrapolations from stories, based off of other extrapolations and conclusions.

We then hear bits and pieces of someone's teachings of the Pilgrims and shazzam...we're all now experts on the Pilgrims! So much so, that every year now we have to argue about what Pilgrims and Indians did 300 years ago...when no one really gives a rats-behind about it!

And some of us would just like to eat some turkey, watch a few football games and enjoy the day! If that's OK with the Pilgrims and Indians, that is.

Patrick
Trolls don't debate or try to get you into an arguement they put out a statement that they know will draw the fire and ire of the readers and then vanish to watch the carnage they cause from afar--e.g. "America is a boil on the world and should be wiped from the face of the earth."

I am no troll nor am I liberal. And most of the people here on TH aren't conservatives, they are theocratic authoritarians who have no problems with big government as long as big government is used in the pursuit of their own narrow agendas and in that way they are no different from the liberals they loathe. Both are anti-freedom, big government, nanny state supporters. Only difference one attacks freedom from the left, the other from the right. The same enemy, just different sides of the coin.


what issue
Government is not involved in celebrating Thanksgiving... people are.
If Govt. didn't even mention Thanksgiving, people could and would still celebrate it.
Do you have any more hats that you want to talk through?

Christianity isn't necessary for
democracy as the Greeks had a form of direct dem. for all of three generations without Christianity.

But the US was founded in Plymouth Bay by people fleeing religious persecution. The South was always very determinedly Anglican in its colonial period.

You can do the states evern by religion: PA was Quaker (and is still the Quaker State), MD and CT became solidly Catholic, and when NYC and NJ were New Amsterdam they were both Dutch Reform; FL, which was Sp. to start, was very Catholic as an initial colony.

You can trace the development of the state constitutions that, in the case of the VA constitution, became the basis of the Dec. of Ind. and later the Const., through religious influence.

Not the Enlightenment but Protestantism said individuals could read Bibles themselves and have individual relations to their priest/ministers and their churches/governments.

And it was in that spirit of personal independence that the Puritans fought the British in the mid 1600s, captured and killed a king who ruled *by divine right,* because those people believed they didn't need a king to tell them what to do.

Directly from those activities comes the belief in the Am. colonies that a king of Eng. wasn't needed here either.

Those ideas came before the Enlightenment which is the 18th C. (1700s) and an entire century after the Puritant Revolution in England and the early foundations in MA in what is now the US.

MESSAGE FROM THE FRONT
Don’t even waste your time on these liberal commentators. They’re only here to troll and bait you into an argument. They know this is a conservative web site; they’re not here to open their minds or expand their horizons. If I wanted to hear liberal dribble I could:
1) Watch network news
2) Read a newspaper
3) Watch a movie
4) Watch a TV sitcom
5) Talk to a Hollywood actor or actress
6) Talk to a recording artist
7) Talk to a public school teacher
8) Talk to a university faculty member
9) Talk to a public school student (grades k-12 brain washed by teachers)
10) Talk to a college student (brain washed by faculty)
11) Wait for Thanksgiving dinner with my family
http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com

Mother of 4
The Wild Turkey ain't that scrawny, a tom weighs in at a good 15-20 pounds. Smaller than a domestic one, but not what you'd call scrawny. Now doves and quail are scrawny.

Yeah Mother
Those "Pilgrims" were real friendly when they basically exterminated the entire tribe during King Philip's War. And the Pilgrims were indeed the same as the Puritans. The Pilgrims being one subset of the Puritans. Like saying Baptists aren't Protestant. Remember logic class and Venn Diagrams? All Pilgrims are Puritans, but not all Puritans are Pilgrims, understand?


Holidays in Perspective Pt 2
In modern perspective, there are many who celebrate Christmas as Santa Day and Thanksgiving as Turkey Day and that's your choice. You're missing out on something wonderful, but it's still your choice. Please remember, however, that if you look at the Constitution, nowhere does it say that the rest of us, who celebrate Christmas as a celebrate of Christ's coming and Thanksgiving in praise of God's blessings, are required to go home, sit down and shut up about what we believe. Yeah, you may not like it, but you know, I live 13 miles from North Pole, AK, and I don't particularly care for Santa, but you don't see me trying to expunge the public square of that pagan "god" so maybe you ought to consider that in a democratic society, you have to put up with some things you don't like in order for that society to remain a democracy. It says "freedom OF religion" not "freedom FROM religion." Sorry if you don't like that, but it's the truth.

And, it is part of what has made the United States the most successful democracy in history. It's called tolerance and respect. We each get to live what we believe what we believe in the public square and those who don't like it are free to go to the other end of the park or debate it reasonably. This whole scheme of removing religious content from the public square is anything but tolerant or respectful. It smacks of fear and the inability to reasonably approach a subject where you feel insecure.

Jim
Of all the cases of Americans spying for Japan every single one was white. If the Nisei were so dangerous why did the US leave them in Hawai'i? Because they needed someone to cut the sugar cane didn't they? Even the SCOTUS in Ex Parte Endo agreed that it was unconstitutional to round up Americans and hold them against their will when their loyality was not in question.

Look I don't think Robert should have been banned forever especially if he stopped the "ching chong" stuff. But he was warned--over and over and he kept doing it and he was banned. The difference between us, if I was told to stop calling her something by the moderator, I'd stop.

I'll never buy a so-called American car Jim either because they are crappy cars (except maybe for Ford). Of course pretty soon you might have much choice--Germans (Hilter), Koreans (colony of Japan, often served as POW guards and were often very brutal more so than even the Japanese) or the Japanese.

Holidays in Perspective Pt 1
I am a Christian who celebrates pretty much every day (I will acknowledge down-days) thankful for my Savior's presence in this world, and more pertinent, His work in my life. So, for the Christian, almost any day could be a day with faith significance. My family celebrates both the winter and summer solstices. The winter because we have two children born on the two days of the solstice and the summer because, hey, this is Alaska, and who wouldn't want to thank God for 23 hours of sunshine in a day?

Fact is, the date we call Christmas was a pagan holiday before the Christians decided it would make a fine time to celebrate Christ's birthday since their murderous pagan neighbors were too drunk to notice the Christians having a celebration too. It is a religious holiday because Christians made it a religious holiday. Jesus was probably born in the fall, not mid-winter, but really, does that matter? If we knew the exact date, we'd probably turn it into idolatry, so I think it's better that we don't know it and celebrate it anyway.

Thanksgiving, otoh, had decidedly religious roots. The Christians of Plymouth in 1621 had a lot of reason to be thankful to Indians for helping them and for God for providing the Indians with a history of harvest successes and the willingness to help (Christians believe that all good things come from God, even when they come from non-Christian sources). They also were thankful that God had provided amenable weather for a good harvest (as important or more so than the Indian assistance, and certainly something that would seem to be entirely in God's control).


Without Christianity, the US would
not have been founded; without Christianity producing Abolition in the North, slavery would never have been banned in the South during the Civil War; and without Christianity and the black churches, the mid-20th C. civil rights movement would not have been successful.

The anti-faith movement has come since Roe v Wade and the homosexual *sexual* revolution, which hates a religion that says there is a better way to live.

45 caliber
Scalia's opinion says: "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose... For example,the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed
weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment orstate analogues... nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places
such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms...We also recognize another important limitation on the historical tradition on the right to keep and carry arms... of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and unusual weapons'.”

Obama's support of reasonable gun control is fully consistent with Heller.

Mother of 4
"God will call her to account for her denial of Christ, but he will not be able to charge her with the self-serving mockery so many are showing.

If we have lost the will to call mockers and hypocrites to account in this world its only a measure of how far we've fallen. The crime is noted in God's accounts and the price WILL be paid."

And how do you know you are so right? To quote Confucious, The Analects 11:11, if we yet do not know about life, how can we know about death "wei zhi sheng, yan zhi si."

Maybe in the next life you'll be a poor Haitian peasant too.

So mocking should be a crime? If so, there would be a good number of Christians in prison for mocking Islam, Hindus and Buddhism. Or should only mocking Christians count?

“sticks and stones”

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 78
Date: Nov 25, 2008 - 12:15 PM EST

He attacked Michele Malkin over and over calling her an anchor baby

I loathe Michele Malkin.

Me: so what is the difference between you and him?

=============

I still call it censoring. There are many, including you usually, that I just ignore.

At least leave on the ID, so we know that something was removed.

As for your opinion of Sweetie Michele. So many people who did not know or don’t want to believe the danger that the Japs in So Calif presented in 1941, are just trying to kill the story.

I have known and talked many times to Japs who were in the camps, and they assured me that it was necessary, based on what they saw and heard while there.

It’s the old “sticks and stones” idea. Who cares what anyone calls anyone else, just consider the source. I am sick of this stupid PC junk, where words and ideas can not be expressed.

Did you ever know one person of one race that you hated and another of that same race that you liked?

I have refused to buy a Jap car until their Government at least admits, if not apologizes for the Rape of Nanking. They raped, tortured, and killed more people in Nanking, than our Atom bombs killed in Japan. I just wish we had more bombs, and had them much earlier.


Comments!!
Im sorry my comments offend.Their NOt intende to.Just my opinion ,of how I feel.

DAVID
I have news for you. The US was never been a melting pot that is as much as a myth as the first Thanksgiving was at Plymouth. The US has always been a salad bowl. Chinatown in SF dates to the 1850s, NYC to the 1880s. Mexican influence in the SW has been there since the US pushed into the Spanish/Mexican cultural area in the 1830s. Of course you have Germantowns, little Italys and a host of others as well.

Which God?
Some ask "Which God?" as if that justifies their hypocrisy in wanting the goodies without acknowledging the God.

I say that my New Age friend who celebrates Thanksgiving giving thanks to the goddesses she worships is giving the holiday its due as much as any Christian does.

God will call her to account for her denial of Christ, but he will not be able to charge her with the self-serving mockery so many are showing.

If we have lost the will to call mockers and hypocrites to account in this world its only a measure of how far we've fallen. The crime is noted in God's accounts and the price WILL be paid.

Mother of 4
Being repectful of one's host faith doesn't mean that the event or you are their faith.

Why don't you look up the dishes served at the real first Thanksgiving and serve that such as cocido, wild turkey, venison, gopher tortoise, mullet, corn, beans and squash. Might want to avoid the tortoise though, it is a protected species. Maybe use snapping turtle instead as a substitute.

Akaqi:
I see you like the Puritans about as much as I do. A lot of people don't seem to have any idea of what an "indentured servant" was.

That was what they called whites who were forced into slavery. The Puritans were, to my knowledge, the ones who began it. They also raided Rhode Island and took an entire town as indentured servants because they danced. What was even funnier to me is that they were the ones who started the habit of 'bundling'. That was what it was called when a young man called on a girl and ended up spending the night with her. If you check the marriage/birth records for that area, about 80% of the women had children born about six months after marriage due to bundling.

They are the ones who changed fashion. Up until then, many men and women wore colorful clothing. The Puritans changed that to black or brown.

Oh, and Massachusetts has a law on their books that require all adults to carry a gun to church with them. It was due to the Indians who discovered that the colonists didn't - which encouraged the Indians to attack during church services.

I don't know Sophie
My main god is Guansheng Dijun (Guan Yu) , god of war and business. He's pretty kick a**.

Here is a link to his image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GuanYuStatue.jpg


David,
Nothing like throwing in a few facts. ;) :D

Not that its going to change the closed mind of someone who is busy justifying indulging himself in something that is against his professed principles.

Try the REAL History for a Change,
BTW -- The main dish of the Pilgrims' feast was not the rather scrawny wild turkey (lumped among the miscellaneous "fowl" in the records IIRC), but venison. You see, in England venison was a dish reserved for the King and those to whom he granted permission to hunt. But in the New World all men could freely hunt and eat the royal dish and thus it was the fitting and proper food for a celebration.

Sounds like plenty of people around here need to get a look at the original, source documents from the time and visit Plimoth Plantation to discover how little of what they think they know is true.

Maybe some of you could at least check out the website http://www.plimoth.org/ while you're hypocritically celebrating a holiday you don't believe in.

Just Another Jones,
You could use a dose of History too.

Squanto, the main liaison between the Pilgrims and the native people, was a Christian and the natives who accepted the invitation to share the Pilgrim's harvest were respectful of their host's worship.


DAVID MA
These are NOT Thomas Jefferson's words:

"The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but it makes sure that wall is a one directional wall, it keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

Why don't you ACTUALLY quote from his letter?

Sophie:
I wasn't trying to tell you to stop posting or anything like that. I hope you didn't take it that way. I just said you need to work on your delivery. If you have having fun, have at it!

Anyone who reads this thing and posts here who isn't having fun should find something else to do. I'm firmly convinced that a lot of the problems in this world are due to someone not having enough to do at something they enjoy.

Mother of 4 said
"The problem is that people want it both ways. They want to kick God out of the holiday so that they can get all the goodies and benefits without the drawback of having to acknowledge the source of those goodies."

God has already been kicked out of the holiday (s). Notice the word is spelled HOLIDAY and not HOLYDAY?

AND, I am not witnessing the word Christmas being used very much this year, must be the Islam influance.

The problem with America today has a lot to do with the lack of assimulation, we are no longer a melting pot.

Akagi, again ...
Learn some real history.

The Pilgrims weren't Puritans -- they were a different sect with different beliefs. When the Puritans, who settled in Boston with the approval of the King rather than in Plymouth against the King's wishes (they were supposed to go to Virginia), they banned the Pilgrims' practices.

One of those practices happened to be the treatment of the native people -- the Pilgrims treating them as friends and the Puritans treating them as hostile rivals.

But keep on talking and keep on undermining yourself if you like.

Mother of 4
But the Puritans didn't see it in 1621 a religious holiday and Christmas is simply a holiday you ripped off from the pagan Romans.

So if I celebrate Cinco Di Mayo, does that make me Mexican? If you celebrate Chinese New Year, does that make you Chinese?

Okay, fine. Let's make it a religious holiday then and have the courts then ban it, happy now?


Ranger's comment????
You all are complaining about it, but it's been removed. Please stop doing that, folks! You're offended by it; I might well be offended by it too, but how do I know unless I can read it?

Mother of 4
Which God is this exactly since there are hundreds of them all over the world. Oh you mean the Christian God that was the Jewish God but sorta got abducted by the Christians and later re-abducted by those of Islam, so now the one god are three gods who then fight each other over who is the real one and then the Islamic god is now two gods broken into the Sunni god and Shia god and then Christian god is too many to count god as Baptists and Mormons and 7th Day and J.W. etc don't agree. Then we have the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Shinto, Buddhists, Daoist, Chinese Folk, and on and on and on. Should we have a game show? Will the real God please stand up?


Akagi
You are correct: had the Wampanoag foreseen what the Puritans had in store for them, they would undoubtedly have let them starve. Another case of not allowing a good deed to go unpunished.

Akagi, in re: #119
"I don't consider either a religious holiday."

So what?

Opinion doesn't trump fact. Thanksgiving was initiated to give thanks to God for the bounty of harvest after hardship and salvation. Christmas carries its origin in its name -- Christ-Mass.

You can consider green to be a shade of red if you like. But green is 510nm and red is 650nm and thus they will remain no matter how many people decide to "consider" green a shade of red.

You could eat pumpkin pie any day of the year. Adopting the form of the holiday while denying the heart of the holiday is nothing but self-serving hypocrisy that exposes a complete lack of personal character.

Are you entirely sure you want to brag about that?

Separation of church & state
"Here is what Thomas Jefferson said about "separation of church and state."

"The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but it makes sure that wall is a one directional wall, it keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

Thomas Jefferson, 1 Jan., 1802
address to the Danbury Baptists

1. Now, how could SCOTUS come to the conclusion they did?
2. With Obama in who knows what will happen.

Just another Jones
The Indians were the Wampanoag and they not only brought the food, they were the reason the Puritans had food to begin with and didn't simply die out (which if they could have read the future would what they should have done, wipe them out, dirty heathens. If you were a Wampanoag the Christians would be heathens to you). Of course later the Wampanoag would be converted and then exterminated.




Serious Christians
Should not care about public supplications to God on behalf of country. The God of Washington, J. Adams, Jefferson and Madison is arguably NOT the Christian God but the God of the American Civil religion. None of them was an orthodox Trinitarian Christian (in fact J. Adams and Jefferson bitterly mocked the Trinity) and ALL invariably spoke in generic Providential language when making supplications to God. Obama's God talk will fit right in line with the first 4 Presidents.

Sophie,
Laugh at me all you choose. God warns his people that they will be mocked by those who put their own desires first.

But come the end God will not be mocked and the mockers will pay for today's laughter with eternal tears.

When the dark emptiness in the depths of your soul peeks out and horrifies you with the inconsequential nature of your life remember this,

God permits U-turns. You can repent and embrace the Good News which is the light of the world and the only path out of Hell.

Sophie
I think Nut (Egypt) has the "Sky Goddess" title copyrighted. Beware!




Mother of 4
You assert that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. But if I remember the story correctly, the local Native Americans provided the food for the occasion and participated in the ceremony. Were they Christians? Seems a little early for a conversion, don't you think? If they weren't Christians, what religion were they? And if they did celebrate, as the story goes, what religion, then is Thanksgiving celebrating?

45
First one was in Flordia (St. Augustine in 1565), then one in El Paso, Texas in 1598. Jamestown was in 1619 and then the Puritans in 1621. The current battle of who's #1 is between Mass and Florida.

The so-called first one though wasn't a per se religious affair as the guests of the Puritans weren't of their faith (they'd soon fix that by first converting them and then slaughting them to the point of extinction).


Mother of four
The "first" so-called Thanksgiving was to celebrate the successful Harvest by the Puritans. They invited the Wampanoag (who weren't Christians) who were the ones that helped them create the successful harvest. So was it God's hand that used the Wampanoag to teach the Puritans how to survive and then allowed them to be wiped out by the Puritans once they learned this? To quote Peter Marlowe from King Rat "I think God is a vicious, sadistic maniac!"

Millions don't see either holiday as a religious one. I don't. If you do, great, pass me some more pumpkin pie..when does Dallas play again? I didn't say there wasn't a god, just not your god. We have hundreds of gods and goddesses, they have birthdays and we have feasts and each controls various aspects of life. We don't have just one.

Veteran's day is called a Holiday too, so is MLK's, are veterans and MLK now gods?

45:

The US and the Russia are almost the same if you don't count the large number of non-strategic weapons Russia has. Does the US really need 7,000 weapons? Wouldn't 1000 be as good? Blowing the planet up 18 times is a device known as hyperbole, meaning the stockpile the US (and Russia) has far exceeds any rational need for them.

Thanksgiving is an American Holiday
Chuck, I am very glad that you are an optimist or at least open minded about the future. As a Christian I believe that President Obama will show his true Christian beliefs at the appropriate times.
But we Christians do not need the President to provide or lead the people in Christian Holidays. He may or may not depending upon circumstances. A wartime President Lincoln proclaimed Thanksgiving in hope of touching some remaining commonality in a nation of Christians engaged in civil war.
However - giving thanks is not strictly a Christian practice. Many faiths proclaim thanks to God in their songs and litergy. You dont have to be Christian to be an American. That is why Thanksgiving is an American Holiday. And in many faiths is an everyday thought. Thank you for your good and kind efforts to reach out to people. We need solid people like you who have and show respect for
America. .......hiers


Sophie:
I think you are trying to be funny but I think you need to work on your delivery. The timing is off badly.

Chuck Norris 2012
Nuff Said

Jeremy,
The "squabbling" is because it is wrong for a person to act on false pretenses.

Thanksgiving is an explicitly religious holiday -- a time of giving thanks to God for blessings received.

The problem is that people want it both ways. They want to kick God out of the holiday so that they can get all the goodies and benefits without the drawback of having to acknowledge the source of those goodies.

The people who lay claim to reason and objectivity are being intellectually inconsistent.

Unless their families are dysfunctional to a nearly unheard of degree no one is tying them up and forcing them to celebrate. No one is stuffing pumpkin pie down their throats at gunpoint.

They are completely free to back up their words with actions. But the vile hypocrites don't.

Akagi
As I said, you can thank whatever God you worship for what you received this year - or yourself if you are an atheist. But I also don't consider Thanksgiving a Christian (alone) holiday. I don't even really consider it a religious holiday since you can give thanks at any time.

And I think the first American thanksgiving is believed to be at Jamestown. But I'm not sure. It doesn't matter. It is a celebration for the end of harvest - and that isn't really a pagan holiday either. Just a celebration our country decided should be a holiday.

Oh, and we used to celebrate Lincoln's birthday too. It was also in February. The actual birthdays were originally holidays for both Washington and Lincoln. About the '70s or so (you can look it up if you want) Congress created Presidents Day, which is known today as Washington's Birthday, since people wanted a holiday for each and every President, particularly the ones who just served. I do agree about MLK's day.


Janet:
The Passover is set due to the moon. So it varies from one day to another but is generally in April. Jesus died on the last day of Passover. It is possible to determine what day he died by tracing the moon's path backwards but it is due to Passover. He rose again on the first day of the week (Sunday). So Easter is celebrated based on Passover as the first Sunday after Passover. That's why it moves from one weekend to another each year.

Mother of four et al
I don't consider either a religious holiday. I don't count my blessings from any Christian God nor do I give gifts to represent God's gifts to mankind (in the form of a savior). Not my faith. But thanks for the day off and the excuse to be a glutton though. I am very fond of pumpkin pie. The Puritans you might note banned Christmas

Sophie:

I think it was the Puritans that merry lot that banned Christmas and are said to have the deep seated fear that someone, soemwhere was having fun. Encoded the death sentence for Jews and others that didn't believe as they and carried out the mass hysteria of the Salem Witch Trials. They did so to give thanks for the first harvest and thus not being wiped out by hunger with much help from the Wampanoag (who weren't Christians). Once the Purtians learned this and their numbers increased the local populations were wiped out--see King Philip's War. Of course the Spanish held the first Thanksgiving in 1565, not sure if most Americans would trade the pumpkin pie and Turkey for what the Spanish ate in Florida.




Akagi, in re: #70
You could call a dog a horse all day long. You could convince or bribe 100 million people to join you in calling a dog a horse. You could pay enough lobbyists to get Congress to pass a law saying a dog was a horse.

But nevertheless, a dog is not a horse and nothing will make it a horse.

Those who do not wish to give thanks to God, or who do not believe that there is a God to thank have no business celebrating the Thanksgiving holiday (note: the very term "holiday" means "Holy Day").

If atheists and secularists had any courage to go with their supposed convictions they'd avoid even the faintest appearance of participation in these Holy Days with the same determination that an Evangelical Baptist would avoid participating in a Satanist ritual.

The more determinedly you argue that the dog is a horse the more you reinforce my point that atheists and secularists are all about getting the goodies and that they'll go to any length of pretzel logic that goal requires.

Akagi
I swear that you like to argue just to argue! Well, I'm a lot like that myself.

You wrote: "He supported the decision in DC v. Heller." Yes, but with qualifications. He supported the decision that individuals could have guns - but he also stated that the city or any other political entity can set up ANY form of infringment (although he didn't call it that) that they feel would make things better.

You challenged me to find a statement where he was interested in getting rid of guns. His voting record is his statement. I tend to look at actions rather than what a person says. They are more true. After all, a duck is a duck.

I'm not really sure where you had the idea that we can destroy the world 18 times over with what nuclear weapons we have. When Mt. St. Helens blew up, the resulting explosion was calculated as greater than all known nuclear weapons in the world going off at the same time and that includes what Russia has (they have more than we do). I kind of doubt we can blow up the world 18 times although I know how it could be done.

I didn't say a thing about his foreign policy - I don't think he really knows what it is either. I think he is like a lot of U.S. people, especially politicans. He considers everyone of doing what he would do in the same situation, which is not true and blinds you to what they really might do. But it isn't just him. You are on your own there right now.

As I said, since we don't know what he will do all we can do is go by what he has done. And what he has done and some of the things he has said he'd like to do (like his National Internal Security Force) scares me about the safety of my freedoms. All we can do is wait and see. And pray.

Thanksgiving is a Christian Holiday?
I'm sorry, but can someone please point out where Thanksgiving is mentioned in the Bible? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Secularists Would Be Dismayed
If they truly researched Jefferson's beliefs, words, etc. In truth, he was their worst nightmare. Sadly, he seemed to turn away from believing in Christ later on. One can only hope that he repented of that before he passed away.

There are no inconsistencies, errors, or mistakes in any of Scripture. There are only people who do not understand them and are unwilling to study the original Hebrew and Greek and do word studies plus studies of Hebrew history and customs. And now, we have quantum physics proving by leaps and bounds the truth of the Bible, plus archeology and science. It takes far more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe the Bible.

Now scientists have come up with this "multiverse" theory, simply because they are having to admit that the evidence for a Divine Creator is becoming overwhelming. And they are just too proud to admit it.

Akagi, in re: #60
It doesn't matter whether or not Thanksgiving and Christmas "are considered secular holidays". The ARE religious holidays.

If you take Christ out of the Christ-Mass there is nothing there. Same for taking thanks to God out of Thanksgiving.

If atheists REALLY believed what they profess they should avoid any trace of association with holidays based on the worship of ANY god/spirit/whatever and avoid the sun-calling of the pagans as vehemently as the speak against singing "Silent Night" at a school concert.

Your reasoning is an excellent illustration of why I'm not holding my breath waiting for atheists to act on their supposed convictions. Its all about the goodies for people who refuse to acknowledge the God.

Janet
No one will know what #92 is unless you give some context as to the subject, author or time as by the time someone reads your reply in reference to #92, it will no longer be #92. Sharon's post to me is #68, not #31. If you had simply put #31 in your reply saying something like "I agree", it would be my post to you about Chuck Norris' shilling for Huckabee and the "One God" thing which would make you seem confused. If you want to reference posts use times--e.g. Your post at 1:22 is confusing...

Jeremy
And why just the Jewish ones? And don't they kinda anyway--Passover, and the like plus the bogus Marxist holiday of Kwanzaa. A holiday that has about as much to do with Africa as fortune cookies has to do with real Chinese cusine. MLK didn't sexually torture his followers, the founder of Kwanzaa did. Should Lunar April 8 and Lunar March 23rd be holidays? How about Diwali or Eid ul-Fitr. Pretty soon you'd have no work days at all or very few of them anyway.

MLK is a day off just like all other American holidays. I don't pay it any more significance than any of the others. I do see it as the token black holiday which Reagan signed to "reach" out to a bloc that will never vote GOP--never! No matter how much the GOP bends down to place their lips on a part of their anatomy.

MLK joins only Colombus (who "discovered" the New World), Jesus Christ (savior of mankind, if you believe that sorta thing), and Washington (founder of the Republic) as those who have holidays named for them. I seem to think he pales in comparison to them and those not listed like Madison, Jefferson, and Lincoln (not a fan of his, but he did do what he set out to do--keep the Union as it was when he came into office).

Yet there are not token Asian or Hispanic holidays. At least not official ones. I suppose once the Hispanics start to flex their electoral muscle more that will change.

Sorry #92
I was just commenting onwhat u was stating.

#92
Yes, Ive read it.Some say we r to celebrate Easter instead of Christmas ,cause this is why HE died to save US.???

Janet
Since I have no idea what post 84 is you'd have to give me a subject title for the post or a time. Otherwise no way I can give my opinion.

Killing is bad (but sometimes required as the alternative to not killing is worse), but following Christ seems not to have any effect on that. As Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians because your Chrisitians are not like your Christ."

If I were to put a bumper sticker on my vehicle this would be the one.

Thanksgiving is a secular holiday
Christmas & Easter are ancient pagan holidays dressed up in Christian trappings. I mean, who cares? What's all the squabbling about? Many secular people celebrate these Holidays because it's American custom. We get the time off work, just as we got time off school, and we carry on our traditions. No one owns it more than anyone else - though the some are more feverish in their celebrations than others. Feeling proprietary about a holiday doesn't really give one ownership. It is a shame that we don't incorporate Jewish holidays into our national calendars, but nothing Chuckles is saying addresses that (which is an actual issue). In Mexico, they have week-long holidays marking various religious anniversaries in which no one works. I for one most heartily celebrate MLK day because it seems to me to have the most social significance of the government holidays. Aren't there more pressing discussions to be had? Oh, and OBAMA 2012!

Sharon #31
VERY good speach!It is what is.

Janet
It is in March or April because it is based on the Lunar calander and not the Gregorian civil one. Same reason Buddha's birthday, Mazu's Birthday, Guanyin's Birthday, Chinese New Year, Middle Autumn Festival, Duan Wu Jie falls on different days and months. Lunar May 5th as does Lunar April 8, etc falls on a different Gregorian day each year. This upcoming year, Lunar April 8 will be on May 2. Lunar April 8 being the Buddha's birthday.

Easter happens on the first Sunday after the full moon which is the first full moon of 14 days that happens on March 21st or later. Thus Easter (as far as I can tell) can fall between March 21 and April 25. Jesus was supposed to have been crucified during the month of Nisan which would be the Gregorian equivalent of March-April. He was said to have been crucified the 14th or 15th day of Nisan, 25, 26 A.D.


#87
Yes we r losing our rights,freedom.Mabe our president will change??U think??

Tax Dollar
Everone should be free to support Thanx giving at their expense . The public official should arrange it from their own paycheck, if they wish and not from Tax Dollars

What many people dont understand here is that America is no longer a country of white church goers .

#87Akaqui
Mabe Im stating it wrong.Im just saying about mor love instead of fighting so much.I dont like seeing anyone killed.Is this bad??

#84 Akaqi
Ur opinion?U think this is true??What is ur opinion on this??Just asking.

Janet
You stated that in you 11:02 post (use times as the # a post will change and also depends if you view the post ascending or descending order) "Lots of restrictions of our freedom have been changed. Why cant we just go by GODs law?" This implies the US should adopt a Chrisitian form of Sharia Law which would mean the state forcing me to act in ways that are contrary to my beliefs. If you mean that as an individual you should come to your own conclusion what God's Law is that opens up some pretty scarey scenerios. Should parents be allowed to murder disobediant children which is permitted under God's Law of the Bible?

No. We have secular law for a reason. And what freedoms do you now lack, which freedoms have been restricted from you to say practice your own faith?

Passover:
I was told the Passover is when Jesus died.This is when we celebrate-HIS Death NOT birth.Even though it was important.This is not the reason he was he for.HE came for HIS father GOD to save the world ,for Adams mistake.????It is either March or April-as I take it is unknown of what Month HE died??

Opinion
Im sorry if I went over the line.I was just stating my feelings.I have no power.Im NOT out to force anyone to believe as I do.I guess just my faith.I feel if ther was LOVE in the world why would we fight??

Janet
Both Christmas and Easter are based on pagan holidays. In the case of Christmas, based on Saturnalia. Symbols of Easter such as chicks, egss and rabbits are symbols of fertility which was the basis of the pre-Christian holiday.


#80
As Ive said IM NOT forcing anyone to do anythin.I DONT have the power. I just stated my opinion,thats all.I was just asking a question. I believe only in ONE GOD.U can have as many as u want.I dont believe in arguing etc. ONE GOD made each of us,HE has the power NO one else does.It is that simple.HIS word will be the last.

Akagi
"But when you use the power of the state (or desire to use the power of the state) to make others believe as you do, then you have crossed the line."

That sums it up brilliantly.

Believe!
I was told that Christmas isnt to celebrate the birthday of Jesus BUT April for HIS death.The last supper,is very important.

But Janet
You asked why not just follow God's law? What about those that perhaps don't follow your particular God? All societies and faiths and no faiths agree mostly on standard principals such as murder, rape, stealing and the like (yes there are exceptions, backwards tribals in Pakistan and such, but in general). But should there be laws against engraven images? Should Hindus, Buddhists, Daoists and the like be thrown in prison? How about Catholics? Are status of Mary one?

Believe what you will, yes. But when you use the power of the state (or desire to use the power of the state) to make others believe as you do, then you have crossed the line.

Ur opinion?
U all feel this article is good.???

Jim
It was Robert. He has been banned and any post he writes will be removed once discovered. He attacked Michele Malkin over and over calling her an anchor baby and then using racist "ching chong ching chong" comments toward her. He was told to stop many times and didn't and his name was banned at which time he would come back on as other names--Ranger29 among others.

He is not being censored (I thought the same thing). He is banned for his racist attacks. Now he was flagged because of his opinions. Many here use just as foul language--worse. Wet *acks, J*p, etc and are not banned because people here agree with their opinions and never flag them--I do though--but Robert was banned because of what he did not because of his opinions. I get flagged all the time too because people often don't like my opinions. Group Thinkers are like that. But I don't get banned because there is no justification. In Robert's case though there was a legitimate reason. I loathe Michele Malkin. I think she is a self-hating Asian who has problems with her identity what some would call a twinkie (including me), but the ching chong comment was way way out of bounds.

I had no issue with anchor baby, even though in her case it was an inaccurate term for her.

There are no First Amendment rights here, but Robert was banned for his behavior not his beliefs.

Believe?
Does anyone believe in Thanksgiving or/& Chrsitmas???

45
"it seems that he will want to ban all weapons by disarming the population, encourage the enemies of our country by being as weak a President as Carter was, increase spending for Welfare while dismantling the military that defends us, etc."

Really? He supported the decision in DC v. Heller. And some conservative law experts view this decision no-less an example of judical activism than Roe v. Wade was. Find me an example of where he said he wanted to disarm the population? Shotguns for dove hunting going to be banned are they?

He has stated he wants to decrease the US nuclear stockpile, but the US has some 20,000 weapons and China has 450. Does the US really need enough to blow up the entire planet 18 times over? He supports going into Pakistan after OBL, Al Qaeda have attacked him as a house negroe and before the election stated they would rather see McCain as president. Doesn't seem "our" enemies look too fondly on Obama. Increase welfare payments? You mean like the 700 billion to Wall Street and more for the so-called American automakers? Adding 5 trillion to the US debt. Wait, that was Bush and the Republicans who did much of that. McCain supported the 700 billion didn't he?

Carol Chase #72
Have u ever watched his show Walker Texas Ranger? Ive seen a couple articles in here by Mr.Norris.I just didnt know he was into this stuff.

Quit censoring

Since so many replies here, quote the First Amend, what happened to freedom of speech?

By reply #4, someone is complaining about what someone else had said, but there is no sign of what the censored person said.

Quit censoring, how can we tell what is being discussed, unless we can read what was said?

How easy is it to censor? Is it possible for one person to click on the censor button, and eliminate another Post?

If that is so, TH should post the name of the person who censored the reply, so we can retaliate. Yes I agree that the four letter words that are used by ignorant fools at HuffPro should not be allowed, but I see nothing wrong with most of the words that are not allowed on TH.

But let each and every post stand!!

By the way, can any of you tell me why Ranger 29 was censored in the first place.

He can't be any more stupid, or anti-anything, than those who are still here.

Akaqi #68
Oh,Im NOT trying to force anyone to believe different.Just stating of how I feel. I feel there is only one.I guess my faith over rules me.I dont know what Budda or any other is .I just know in my heart there HE is there & he made all of us -universe-.HE ownes all of us. He put us here for a reason -Populate. satan changed it by disobeying HIM.So since satan was thrown out & on earth.satan rules.This is why so much fighting etc. If we HAD LOTS of LOVE for all & prayed ,it might be different. ???

Janet #53--Chuck's book
I just finished reading his incredibly surprising NY Times best seller (#14), "Black Belt Patriotism." This column is partially at least from chapter 2 in the book, so I believe Norris has to be the author. I've also heard him speak about the content in person. His book is an amazing read and well researched about returning to our Founding Fathers' America. Check out the 30 5-star reviews at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Black-Belt-Patriotism-Reawaken-Ameri ca/dp/1596985585

Tony
Are we to assume that you're sitting at a solar- or wind-powered computer? Did you cobble it together with daub and wattle? If not, you're using the same electricity and finished goods as the rest of us.

45
In Buddhism, the Buddha is not a god and in Buddhism since what we experience is basically illusionary giving thnaks for it would be seen being very odd. In Daoism there are hundreds of gods and goddesses. Same as in Hindu.

Most non-Chrisitians that celebrate this day celebrate it as a 100% secular holiday. There are days, times and ways in our faiths for giving thanks and it isn't over a piece of turkey (almost all Buddhists are vegetarians as well).


President
WOW!Guess hes that bad.??Well others have been assinated,hed better watch himself.Id hate to have that job.

Janet
During the primaries our local American gong fu star started to write pro-Huckabee columns and anti-Romney and McCain ones like "Presidential Buyer's Remorse" and "Will Romney Buy the White House?" and "My Choice for President."

The ONE is Heavan? Well the problem with that is few have formed a consensus on who that one is and as far as that goes, few have come to consensus if it is one or hundreds and some don't even hold there is something known as a Heavan. In Buddhism there isn't nor is the Buddha seen as a god.

Pretty hard to base laws based on something that few can agree on. Should children be stoned if they are disobediant? Should shell fish be illegal? How about blended fabrics? Pork BBQ? I think a good number of people might be a little bent out of shape over "God's laws."

Should we just burn the O.T. and keep the N.T.? If so, does that make you a Cafeteria Christian?


What Thanksgiving is
Thanksgiving is a time of celebration to honor all the things we have and were given by God. It doesn't matter what God you worship; God is the reason you have them. So as a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddist, or any other religion you can name, this is a time of thanksgiving to your God for what you have been given. (Or yourselves if you are athiest.) It is the most reaching holiday I know about - and I wish everyone regardless of race or belief - a Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving.

President
Monique #6,how did he get to even be in the votes if NOt American citizen?

Janet:
The question of what our new President will do is what is keeping a lot of conservatives from sleeping well at night. No one knows.

From his past history, it seems that he will want to ban all weapons by disarming the population, encourage the enemies of our country by being as weak a President as Carter was, increase spending for Welfare while dismantling the military that defends us, etc.

The Obamaites who love him believe he will help our country by stabilizing the economy, provide a free medical program for everyone (despite the fact it really reduces medical care everywhere it has been tried), and in general help everyone. I HOPE they are right - but I don't think so.

Nobody knows.

GODs law?
I know of only ONE,HE that is in HEAVEN????

Janet
How will ACORN Hussein Obama do? Hold onto to your Wallet TIGHT!

Give Thanks to Earth
This information is at least interesting; however the question I have is, how can the celebration of thanksgiving a Violation of Church and State? Most peoples forget that a large number of people who celebrated what is widely thought to be the first Thanksgiving with the Pilgrims in 1621 were Wampanoag Native Americans who worshiped more than one Sprit Gods; one of the Greatest Sprits is Mother Earth. However it was President Abraham Lincoln who proclaimed the first Thanksgiving Holiday in 1863.

But back to the Origins: The Wampanoag beliefs were an integral part of the first celebration and they gave thanks to that from witch all life sprang (Unless you believe we are transplanted by Aliens) Mother Earth or Turtle Island. Most humans give thanks for gifts from the Earth but then there are those that go from day to day with no appreciation of the clothing they are wearing, the food they eat, the car they are driving or the even the people around them. All of these things haven been provided for us by this great planet and we should be thankful for every breath we take and if a leader like the Great Emancipator Abraham Lincoln thought to show thanks for all good things in life we should too.

Now when you get into that fossil fuel powered vehicle such as the Truck, Plane or Boat and you pollute the sky with toxins think twice or in some cases just think who is affected by that vacation you’re taking, or that extra trip to the store some unnecessary item you just want but don’t need; Thank you Creator, Earth, Mother for all you give.

P.S. Mr. Norris are you not thankful for your Family, Friends or Fans, I am sure they are for you!

Mother of Four
Christmas and Thanksgiving as I have pointed out are seen as secular while they do have religious roots which is exactly why the courts will never strike them down as unconstitutional. Millions of non-Christians in the US celebrate them (as I do) and millions more celebrate Christmas outside the Christian world--go to Tokyo or Taipei sometime and visit a major departmant store like Sogo this time of year--they have Christmas displays, neither Japan or Taiwan are anywhere near majority Christian.

Think most people think about what Memorial Day is about or July 4? No, it is a chance to get a day off, long weekend, beer, sports, BBQ, shopping and the like. And it'd be the same if the US was celebrating April 20 instead.

When most people are eating turkey or giving gifts they aren't thinking about blessings from God or Jesus's birth (which was not in December anyway and the timing is based on a Roman Pagan celebration Saturnalia).

Also celebrations of winter which are found world-wide in most cultures are based around December 21--the Winter Solstice. February 9th is a date around Chinese New Year though. This year it was February 7th, but the next year will be January 26).


Ok
Akaqi ,#57 What is shill for Huckabee?

Question?
Anyone have an idea of how our new president will do??

Back it up, part 2
...

Third, as part of your commitment to act on your secular principles give no Christmas gifts and accept no Christmas gifts. Yes, your kids will be upset that their friends have a ton of new stuff, but that's where the sacrifice part comes in. If many of us "foolish, superstitious" Christians can teach our kids to give up Halloween costumes and candy for the honor of God surely you "rational" secularists can teach your kids to accept the honor of being gift-free to support secular principles.

Don't forget to send back everything anyone gives you unopened with a note explaining your principles. That includes giving back the Christmas bonus, turkey, ham, etc. that your fellow employees are getting. If the boss won't take the bonus back stand on those principles and send it to your favorite secular charity. If you can't find a secular charity send it to the federal government -- since most of the anti-God crowd wants government to do everything anyway.

Go ahead, have the courage to stand on your principles and back up your words with actions.

I won't hold my breath waiting to hear of even one atheist willing to do it though. My experience is that those who scream against God during the holidays want the goodies even as the reject the God whom those holidays honor.

Back it up,
Those who reject God and embraces secularism need to start backing up their words with actions and make some sacrifices based on their principles.

First, refuse to take days off work for religious holidays. If your place of employment is closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas bring home the backlog of stuff that's gathered on your desk and spend your usual 8 hours working diligently just as if you were in the office.

If your job isn't portable, spend that time organizing your attic, redoing your garage, inventorying and alphabetizing your books, CDs, videos, and DVDs, or doing anything else that is definitely and defiantly NOT a holiday celebration.

Second, refuse all invitations to holiday celebrations including family gatherings. Hold onto your secular principles and insist that you'll gather with family for purely sentimental reasons on a randomly chosen date that has NO religious connotations of any kind.

If you want a "Winter Celebration" no fair trying to take over the Christian Christmas, the Jewish Hanukkah, or the Pagan Solstice. Find your own day to claim. BE as secular as you say you are and if you think Winter wants celebrating throw a party on February 9th.

...

Janet
"Why cant we just go by GODs law?"

Good question? Which God? The Islamic, Jewish or Christian one? And as far as that goes do the Mormons, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists and the like agree? Should we restrict it to just the monotheists? Maybe the Shinto, Buddhists, Daoists, Hindus and the like should get a say too?

How about because the US is not Iran or Saudi Arabia. If you want to live by God's Law, you can convert and move to Tehran or Riyadh.


WHY?
Akaqi,it says by Chuck Norris???He didnt write this article???

AudiR10
The Blue Grey Classic doesn't exist anymore. And it was played on Christmas anyway. But you always had two NFL games on Thanksgiving. Dallas and Detriot were usually playing on that day. This year Dallas and the Seahawks and Detriot and the Titans.

But you are correct, Thanksgiving is about gluttony, football and crass consumerism. Christmas is about gluttony, football and crass consumerism, Memorial Day is about beer, BBQ and NASCAR. The stores try to push for crass consumerism too, but it just can't hold a candle to Christmas and Thanksgiving in that regard.

WOW!
Nice prayer #19 Jonathan.Reba #16 Amen! Ken #15
I cant see anyone doing this to their child. NOT one child has ever asked to be born.The child has never had a choice. Lots of restrictions of our freedom have been changed .
Why cant we just go by GODs law?

RickyLS
I doubt many who don't believe in God are really thinking about who to thank on Thanksgiving but rather the turkey and pumpkin pie and will Dallas win after only four days off and can they still win the NFC East and will the stores be crowded for Black Friday?

Few are going to be crying over the issue of "I have no one to thank for my blessings."

Sharon
"It is time that the American people stand up and take our nation back from the left wing idiots that have invaded and tried to strip away our history and what our nation was founded upon. We sit back while the left strips us of the rich history and the greatness that this nation was founded upon."

It was founded on slavery and genocide too? Should that be celebrated too? There are millions in the US who are not Christians and they are Americans too and pay taxes just as you do and don't really care to have your particular faith shoved down their throats.

As for Thanksgiving and Christmas being a violation of Church and State, read my previous post on the subject. It is not and it never will be.

Pinto Man
How do they do that? You do understand that not everyone who believes in God (or a number of gods) believes in the Christian God. While I think the ACLU at times go too far, they are correct at keeping say a captive audience from being forced to hear a Christian prayer (which was the crux of the issue in Engel v. Vitale).

If the prayer was say an Islamic one or a Buddhist one, the "Freedom of Religion" crowd would be the first to scream like a stuck pig. It is not Freedom of Religion many of you want, it is Freedom of Your Religion at the Expense of All Others that you want and in that regard from an ideological point of view you are hardly different from the Taliban and other Islamic extremists you loathe so much.

Janet
"I didnt realise u were a
columnist.?"

He isn't. He was a shill for Huckabee who wrote pro-Huckabee and anti-McCain propaganda for TH disguised as columns and they kept him on after his champion went down in flames.

Nice article
Nice wording Mr.Norris. I didnt realise u were a
columnist.?I really enjoyed Walker Texas Ranger!
Well,the whole world should.HE made us & he can taketh away.YES,Thanksgiving is a day of rejoice for our troops too.

MoniQue
Go get a life. The "he is not a natural born citizen" fantasy is dead and to continue to pursue this makes you look stupid or crazy or both.

I AM NOT Thnakful fro Liberals
What would an American Holiday be without a Leftist, Libtard, America Hater TRYING to tear down America?


http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-pilgrims-were-really -grave-robbers



It is not
Christmas and Thanksgiving are considered secular holidays, while they have religious roots, they both serve secular purposes and if a suit was brought to de-list them as Federal holidays I am sure the court would rule just as it did in McGowan v. Maryland (1961). In that case it ruled that while the Blue Laws were religiously based, they served a secular purpose and thus were constitutional. A similar case is Van Orden v. Perry (2005) where the court ruled that the 10 Commandments display on the Texas Capitol grounds were constitutional as they conveyed both a religious and secular message. Thanksgiving and Christmas fall in a similar category. Many people celebrate both without being Christian (which includes myself).


Ender
I can't speak for the rest of the 90 percent, but Washington and Jefferson frequently used the descriptions "Creator,""Nature's God," and "Providence." Some have argued that these are terms that belie Deist leanings. I am attracted to the concept of an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator who is beyond the understanding of Man out of whom all Creation exists, which these same names imply. I struggle with the idea of a God who would exclude part of his creation from itself.

A few comments
@Mr. Norris:
Thank you very much for the point you are making, and the excellent way in which it was put.

@Birdman II:
If you're going to seriously follow the Scriptures, I think you need to forget about rocking Robbie's world. If I recall correctly, it was only if a prophecy was made in the name of the Lord that the punishment you mention was to apply; I cannot recall Ranger29 ever stating his little speeches in that manner.

@Just Another Jones:
'90 percent of Americans believe in God.'
Which God? The use of a generic term leads to the possibility of misstatements when dealing with percentage-based values - do they believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Who sent His son to die on our behalf?

LD35
If the statistic I heard was correct, that 90 percent of Americans believe in God, how is that possible?

Just ----Jones
You don't hear it, but Obama & the Communist ACLU walk hand in hand and their goal is to rid us of religion(as we know it).

The connection between Obama & ACLU was intentionally avoided by the MSM.

atheists
Would the atheists please shut up and let the majority of us pray and talk about God? I think atheists are so afraid that their fragile faith will break if they hear about God just one more time. I'm sick of atheists pushing their faith down my throat. I have the right to religious freedom, there is no such provision for atheism, unless you admit it is a religion. Which it is, it does the same thing as religion. Either evolution or self is their God, or both.

Aren't We Jumping the Gun Just a Hair?
Obama hasn't been sworn in yet, and already we're sure he's going to be the godless liberal who will ignore Thanksgiving. Did I miss something, or didn't he get in trouble for actually going to a church - for about 20 years - where the minister said some inflammatory things? It is my observation that much of the black community is a church-going bunch. Many of its leaders, from MKL, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, all claim religious credentials. Surely Obama has some sense of history and isn't going to intentionally offend one of his most loyal constituencies, is he?

I often get the impression that "true Christians" are of the opinion that the rest of us don't believe in God at all simply because we don't share their interpretation of the Bible. That is a big mistake. I recently heard a statistic reported that over 90 percent of Americans believe in God. I'm pretty sure much of that 90 percent would describe themselves as something other than evangelical or fundamentalist Christian - that they would leave room for the possibility that God is open to more than one set of rituals.

That said, those of us who do not identify ourselves as "true Christians" can still believe in God and can certainly celebrate Thanksgiving wholeheartedly.

The aftermath of Hurricane Ike
I will polish the silver I have left, wash the dishes that aren't broken, put my mother's best table-cloth (mud stains and all) on the table, bake the turkey, and give thanks with my family to Almighty God, because it could have been so much worse.

However, please remember that to be a Baptist or a Quaker in colonial Massachusetts Bay Colony was dangerous and not tolerated by the Congregationalist government. Thank God for Roger Williams and Providence Plantation!

I would like to suggest, however, that even freedom of religion has limits. Religions and cultures which permit or encourage wife-beating and "honor killings," and condone the rape of "non-believers" tear at the fabric of our society. Don't ask me to tolerate THAT!


Jeez ...
what did Robert say now that everyone is so miffed this early in the morning? I can't find it on this page.
Chuck .... the minions of evil won't stop until it's brought to a fight. First they want the fight to be one sided. They will take the weapons and then they will close the schools of self-defence. Finaly ... they will turn one neighbor against the other, tyrants require informants.
What is there so difficult to see about evil?

church and state
church and state should be separated pray for our troops vote for politics not even in the same class our religion is honest our troops are offering thier life for freedom with out kickback

Right link for Chuck's exclusive
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=81804

The time is now
It is time that the American people stand up and take our nation back from the left wing idiots that have invaded and tried to strip away our history and what our nation was founded upon. We sit back while the left strips us of the rich history and the greatness that this nation was founded upon. Why? I just do not understand why those in this nation just do not get angry and say enough. The question that I keep asking is when is enough? Where do people finally say this crosses the line? Jesus was not a wimp when he was on earth. He let the establishment know when they had crossed the line. Herod tell that fox, went to the temple because it was all about the money and he ran them out of there. So if we follow Jesus then why should we not be the same and call it what it is corrutption. We have allowed one woman to begin the downfall of our nation, we have allowed infanticide in this nation, we allow our children to be exposed to some of the most ungodly things ever in this nation's history. We allow our children to be abused, raped, used and abused. Now we live in a nation where our constitution and our founding fathers are being drug through the muck and the question of celebrating thanksgiving violation of church and state. There is not such phrase in our Constitution. So America when is enough? Our Founding Fathers Pledged their life their honor and their fortune for this nation so when do we stand up and say no more

RickyLS--Thanks!
You're right! Norris' exclusive at WND well worth the read. LOTS of extras there--loved his resource links (never knew those references for this historical stuff was on government sites) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=81804

Robert
I support Roe now, too. In fact, I want you to go to Wichita Kansas and see Dr. George Tiller, who will perform a retroactive abortion on you.

How dare some of you question the ONE!
Anything Obama says or does is divine providence and if you don't believe me, ask HIM as he is the ONE, he said so HIMself.

Chuck makes the classic mistake of believing in a power higher than the ONE. We need to say thanks to the uneducated masses that voted for the ONE so that the ONE could lead this country to its final destination, complete oblivion!

Atheists on Thanksgiving Day...
All those thanks to be thankful for--and no one to thank

Norris LINKS and EXTRA materials at WND
Mr. Norris gives 8 EXTRA paragraphs and lots of Internet resource LINKS in his EXCLUSIVE version at World Net Daily... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=81804

Ranger29
Why don't you just go off somewhere all alone and fester in private?

How is your prediction of a Master and Commander victory. Are we really going to like his leadership?

In the OT people who made prediction that did not come true were false prophets and guess what? They were stoned to death. Now where did I put the pile of rocks?

Norris LINKS and EXTRA materials at WND
Mr. Norris gives 8 EXTRA paragraphs and lots of Internet resource LINKS in his EXCLUSIVE version at World Net Daily... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=81804

Norris LINKS and EXTRA materials at WND
Mr. Norris gives 8 EXTRA paragraphs and lots of Internet resource LINKS in his EXCLUSIVE version at World Net Daily... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=81804

Football and Shopping
Thanksgiving is about football and shopping. (Menfolk in my family are thankful for the Blue-Gray Game that prevents them from the Door Busters at Wal-Mart on Friday).

If you believe the Constitution prohibits the worship of NCAA Football and Wal-Mart, you are probably a member of al-qaida and should be drug out into the street and shot.

Holidays
Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Memorial Day all violate the philosophy of separation of church and state as expressed by the anti-Christian Left. All are holidays that have some sort of religious, particularly Christian religious, themes put on them.

Christmas, of course, is a Christian religious holiday. In fact the time between Christmas and the Epiphany is the second most important series of days on the Christian Calendar because it affirms the divinity of Christ through the reactions of those around Him to His birth, both good and bad.

Thanksgiving is meant to give thanks to the LORD for the bountiful harvest we experience each year in this country. It is an intentional merge of patriotism (realizing that we are a prosperous nation and that even those of us who are struggling financially are still in a better position than the majority of people in the world) with religion (realizing that our prosperity (as are all things) is due to God's mercy and benevolence and thanking Him for it.)

Memorial Day is a day where we remember and pray for the souls of those who died in the service of our country.

I, for one, am glad for these "violations" of the "constitutional wall of separation" because when we lose our Christian roots and ignore our Christian heritage for the purpose of appeasing a few atheists, we lose that which makes us free.

Mark
The difference between Lincoln and Obama:

Lincoln believed his position, power, and authority was granted him through divine providence.

Obama believes he IS divine providence.

PRAYER IN PUBLIC RE-RANGER 29
Why do you protest prayer in public ??,
does it offend you that i offer thanks to my
GOD??. And if it does offend you,why not take
your complaint to the business owner.Who
would probable ask you the same thing (WHY DOES
IT OFFEND YOU ??.I'm not pushing it on you,the
plain fact is YOU don't LIKE prayer becouse
you don't understand how we as CHRISTIANS can
have ASSURANCE that when we die we have
assurance that we will be with GOD in heaven;
FATHER IN HEAVEN I COME BEFORE YOU IN YOUR SONS NAME PLEASE SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT TO TOUCH
RANGER 29 IN HIS TIME OF NEED AND THAT HE WILL SEEK YOU TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE FOR HIM TO DO AMEN&AMEN


NOW ;;
thank you CHUCK for your insite into this
holiday that every PRESIDENT has approved of
and promoted IT,to being a time for FAMILY to
be together and PRAISE HIM for it.FATHER IN HEAVEN I PRAY FOR CHUCK RIGHT NOW THAT YOU WILL GIVE HIM THE WISDON AND KNOWLEDGE TO CONTINUE THE THE FIGHT FOR YOUR NAME THAT YOU GIVE HIM THE WISDOM AND ALL THE PEOPLE TO PROVE HIM IN THIS DAY WHEN THE ADVISERY WOULD LIKE US TO JUST GIVE UP AND DIE ((SATAN I STEP ON YOUR HEAD IN JESUS NAME ))GOD BLESS
JONATHAN

THANKSGIVING
Hey guys, the article was about THANKSGIVING. Carry on your abortion or whatever arguments somewhere else. Mr Norris has written a great article about how Thanksgiving could be celebrated if the president-elect truly was like Abraham Lincoln. What a shame Mr. Obama doesn't even deserve to stand in the shadow of Lincoln, Jefferson, Madison and others who knew that their power only came through Divine Providence.

Remove all Holidays
Perhaps what should be done is to remove ALL celebrations, honorariums of persons and holidays. No more days off from work and no more vacations associated with them.
Everyone work 365 days a year, minimum eight hours a day, with no time off.
This at the very least would hit everyone, regardless of their faith, or lack of, or any other issues
Would those who complain against faith and it's practice continue to do so?
Go figure.
At the very least perhaps it would hit home to all.

LET'S PRAY FOR RANGER 29
We'll ask God to help you for you are lost and do not know your direction of love and compassion. It is a big wilderness when you walk in a Godless world. Most of all, help him remove the hate from his heart.

Ranger29 From Tx

Actually I do know the Constitution very well. Better that you based upon your posts.

The abortion isssue has nothing to do with privacy. Women can have an abortion in private or not have an abortion in private.

It does have more to do with protection of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Many Liberals believe pregnant women, (a special group of citizens), should have the right to kill innocent human life.

Can you think of any other "special group" in our society that has the right to kill innocent human life?

The answer is no. We don't allow any group in our society to take a innocent life because it may be inconvient for that life to continue.

We don't allow grand parents to be killed off because they may have become a burden on their families due to aging. We don't allow a wife to kill off her husband after a stroke because he can no longer take care of himself. We just don't do that.

For some reason, many liberals want to make an exception to this rule.

But let me be clear, I personally believe abortion is homocide. Human taking another human life. I also believe a woman can choose or not choose to get pregnant so the reason for an abortion is just bogus.

Having said that, I also believe many children would be better off aborted than being born to a Liberal mother on crack or cocaine.

Wobbie Wanger, thank you,
Loser, what that means to me:

Lord,
Oh, hear me,
Salvation is my prayer
Every day I praise you
Rejoice in your name.

Thanks Wobbie Wanger for the acronym for my favorite prayer.

For you it means:

Lost
Oh, please help.
Sin is my game
Error of your ways is my path
Repentance is my hope.

Robbie the Ranger 29, a fitting epithat:

Here lies Ranger 29
An atheist through and through
All dressed up,
And nowhere to go,

Wobbie, Wanger 29
Do you even have an intellectual capacity to offer an arguement worthy of a response?

So far you are batting zero, but in retrospect that is probably a summation of your life to date.

I mean , how could anyone post such whopping lies about military sevice as you have, and have been so destroyed, and yet still post.

Dont you have any shame Wobbie?


Good article
Hey Chuck,
Good article! Thanks for the excellent points you brought up. Too bad there are so many that "don't get it".

Ranger29 from TX

Actually if you could read better you would have noticed I never said where or if I even pray.

However I see a right to privacy is also another freedom you don't respect.

Are there any other freedoms you don't approve of?


No need -to Wobbie, Wanger 29
Prayer is what it needs to be, when it needs to be.

Thanks for making my point about your posts. All insulting, never a factual reference.

And Wobbie the GI Joe Wanger, is this the best you can do?

Ranger 29
Keep lying Wobbie, maybe someone will buy into it.

You certainly make up whoppers here at TH figuring no one will know better.

Too bad you cant keep your stories straight.

Ranger 29, yeah right
Did your mother have any children that lived? A rhetorical question.

I can do my religious act in public. And toodles, there is nothing you can do about it.

If I knew what homosexual bar you hung out at, I would park myself right outside and sing Christmas carols.

Sorry mental case, if you dont like religion, you still have to deal with it, just like we have to deal with you here.

So, need a prayer Wobbie? This is public, and I will not hesitate to offer one. Try and stop it.

Ranger29

Thanks for admitting you are willing to restrict freedoms.

I am sure you will object the next time some peaceful protestors are walking down the street carrying signs and chanting something you disagree with using the same logic.

"as long as you don't have to listen to it."


Obama not a NATURAL BORN US Citizen!
FOLKS, AMERICA’S CALLING AND COUNTING ON YOU – PLEASE WRITE TODAY! It’s not too late!

Hey folks don't you think arguing about "obama policies" is a bit presumptuous?

HE'S NOT EVEN PROVED THAT HE'S A NATURAL BORN U.S. CITIZEN! And the truth is HE CAN'T because he was BORN IN KENYA and he doesn't have a certificate of LIVE BIRTH for the State of Hawaii, only a "certification" for FILE purposes only and of which would not even allow a person to get a drivers license.

Here’s Chief Justice Clarence Thomas’ fax# 202-479-2971 write him TODAY - if you don't know what to say, use the letter below as a sample.

http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/%E2%80%A2-si gn-obama-petition/

right on chuck norris!
thanks for standing with the truth!we have many things to be thankful for!

Ranger 29
You dont have to listen to anything including yourself.

Your remedy is to tune it out. You can shut down nothing, Wobbie the phony. How did you fantasize that Wobbie?

Whats more Wobbie, the phony naval aviator, mental issue, no one ever forces any religious beliefs on anyone.

If you have an example of anyone forcing religious beliefs on another person, by all means relate it with a link.

You have none. What a phony.

To all that want NO God in America

On this coming day of Thanksgiving, who are you going to thank? And if this day of Thanksgiving points to God, are you going to refuse to celebrate this Holy day (that IS where we get the term holiday)?

Personally, I am going to thank God that He gave us President George Bush for the past 8 years. That in His foresight, He used Bush as His tool to keep America safe from terrorist attacks.

Our next president has some big shoes to fill.

No separation of Church and State.

Actually there is no wall of separation of Church and State. Its not in the U.S. Constitution. Its not written in any law. Just another attempt by Liberals to deceive.

We do know the 1st Amendment guarrantees Freedom of Religious Expression. There are no restictions. No wrong place to pray, no right place to pray. No good place to express your faith, no bad place to express your faith.

Just that you have the right to express your religious views anytime, anyplace, anyway you want. That is Freedom.

Liberals want to restrict that Freedom.

Hah!
Finally!

A historical road map of the seperation of church and state concept, unvarnished by the freebooters who peddle anti religion bigotry.

This is how it was, no state religion.

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