Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, September 10, 2008
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Politicians, Theology, and Abortion
by Chuck Colson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


To the surprise of some political commentators and observers, abortion has emerged as an important issue in this year’s elections. Despite the talk about the “broadening” of moral concerns on the part of Christian voters, these voters still care about the sanctity of human life—just ask the Speaker of the House.

During a recent appearance on “Meet the Press,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was asked what she would tell Senator Obama (D-Ill.) if he asked her when life began. He already said that he does not know.

Pelosi identified herself as an “ardent, practicing Catholic” and said that she had “studied [the issue] for a long time.” The Speaker then said that “over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition.” She added that “St. Augustine said at three months,” and concluded that “we don’t know.”

In any case, according to Pelosi, “it shouldn’t have an impact on the woman’s right to choose.”

The Speaker was scarcely done sharing the fruit of her “studies” when people in a position to know—Catholic bishops and theologians—set the record straight, quickly. The chairmen of the Catholic Bishops’ pro-life and doctrine committees issued a statement saying that the Speaker had “misrepresented the history and nature of the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church on abortion.”

Cardinal Rigali of Philadelphia and Bishop Lori of Bridgeport pointed out that since the first century, the Church has “affirmed the moral evil of every abortion.”

It is true that in the late classical and Middle Ages “uninformed and inadequate theories” about human embryology led to speculation about the age at which the unborn child receives a soul. But debates about what is called “ensoulment” were independent of the question of the evil of abortion.

In any case, we now know that “a new human life begins with the union of sperm and egg” and Catholic teaching reflects this scientific fact.

Archbishop Chaput of Denver pointed out the inconsistency in the statements and actions of politicians like Pelosi. On the one hand, they “tend to take a hard line in talking about the ‘separation of Church and state.’” However, “their idea of separation [only] seems to work one way.”

“Public leaders inconvenienced by the abortion debate,” wrote Chaput, “also seem comfortable in the role of theologian.”

It is not only Catholics. Protestant politicians also play theologian. They desire the political benefit of professing faith without taking what they perceive as a politically costly position. So they insist that Christian teaching on the subject is “unclear” or that Christians have historically disagreed on the subject.

Of course, as the Bishops pointed out, nothing could be further from the truth. As I write in my new book The Faith, the Didache, a first-century Christian document thought to be the earliest Christian catechism, called abortion “the murder of a child.” You don’t get it any clearer—or older, for that matter—than that.

Of course, this kind of clarity is, as Archbishop Chaput put it, “inconvenient” for those who find themselves in opposition to 2,000 years of Christian teaching. In that case, my suggestion is that these politicians spare us their uninformed and inadequate theories about what Christianity teaches.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Chuck Colson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
It's above Obama's paygrade ...
and frankly above his reasoning level as well. With no moral grounding, he is left to debate with his own conscience and with others in a position to have him elected. What a travesty that the lives of millions of future Americans are used to further political goals. God is not amused. We will all suffer for this. "When you do unto the least of these ..."

Conscience is the issue
As a Catholic, I have never had any doubt about the humanity of the unborn child, nor has Church ever communicated or addressed that fact ambiguously.

Besides, let's be real, conscience is what tells us that is true. Religion helps to form conscience. If Nancy Pelosi is truly confused about abortion, then her conscience is malformed. Which says a lot about the potential harm she can do (and does!) in her position.

Clearly the Church didn't have access to her mind and heart as she was developing as a person, otherwise she wouldn't be confused and misinformed about Church teaching regarding abortion. Perhaps the Bishops contacting her to re-educate her is a watershed moment and will produce effect.

And if Obama truly doesn't know or appreciate that an unborn child is a human being, then his conscience is malformed too. Clearly, a person with a malformed conscience should not be President of the US.

I hope all the Obama supporters can grasp this. If they also think that an unborn child is not a human being, then I assert that they shouldn't be voting - the error of that is too grave.

Which goes to say that religion is a good thing and should be promoted, as it performs the essential task of forming and informing a good conscience. An essential asset to every person.

ON ABORTION, BY IVAN ERICKSON
ON PRO LIFE, ABORTION, EUTHANASIA, CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND OTHER MORAL AND ETHICAL CHOICES, by Ivan Erickson, author of “Song of the Storm Winds”. Please visit http://www.ivan-erickson.com to read and comment on my religious discourses, and to order my novel via direct links to amazon.com
Man’s Free Will: From The Book of Sirach, 15:11 – 20:
“Say not: ‘It was God’s doing that I fell
away’;
for what he hates he does not do.
Say not: ‘It was he who set me astray’;
for he has no need of wicked man.
Abominable wickedness the LORD
hates,
he does not let it befall those who fear
him.
When God, in the beginning, created
man,
he made him subject to his own free
choice.
If you choose, you can keep the com-
mandments;
it is loyalty to do his will.
There are set before you fire and water;
to whichever you choose, stretch
forth your hand.
Before man are life and death,
whichever he chooses shall be given
him.
Immense is the wisdom of the LORD;
he is mighty in power, and all-seeing.
The eyes of God see all he has made;
he understands man’s every deed.
No man does he command to sin,
to none does he give strength for lies”.
Also, God gave us the commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”! Please note that he gave us no addenda to that commandment, except in the case of the destructive power of His Sword – which is war and other Acts of God! Man must not supersede, change, delete or countermand so much as one of God’s commandments, mandates, laws, decrees, jurisdictions or covenants. If man or woman does so, remember also these words of God from The Book of Sirach, 7:8:
“Do not plot to repeat a sin; /not even for one will you go unpunished”. / May the Beloved Lord continue to bless each of you in all things, always.

its also aparentlyabove McCains paygrade
This pro-amnesty rino, John McCain when asked by Rick Waren, when should a baby have civil rights, he replied: "At conception".

Really? if a "baby" should have have civil rights at conception, then why does McCain thibk its ok to have an abortion in case of rape and incest?????

Does he think we can away the civil rights of a baby, based simply on the fact the baby's father was a rapist, or blood relative of the mother?

Miserable half wit hypocrit!

Vote for a constituionalist and libertarin, who alsways speaks the truth: Bob Barr for President.

If McCain is elected, Sara Palin, having served her purpose, to get the religious wing of the party excited will be put away in the attic like a funny uncle,(or aunt) and brought out only when McCain needs a tie breaker in the senate-which wont be very often.


BTW: Warrne question was whne does spitrual life began-not whne biological life begis. in fatc biological life begins at coception, but theres little discusion of abortion in the Bible. notr is there any scripture to sugest that God putsca spirit ina fetus only to know in his foreknowledge that it will be misacarried or aborted.

In fact the first man Adam, was created from the dust of the ground, and was fully formed physically before God breathed into him the "Breath of life" or spitis and then and only then did man become a "living soul">

see Genesis



Joe Biden - a pretend Catholic

Now Joe Biden is showing his pretend Catholicism. What a joke Pelosi and other public self-described Catholics are who advocate embryonic stem cell research and abortion. They are obviously going to church to get the votes from Catholics without having to stand up for folks that can't vote for them for 18 years or perhaps never if they are aborted.



stranger
Read Psalm 139

Life begins at conception. Period.

causing abortions
All the anti abortion folks like some Catholics and fundamentalists along with their far left opponents are actually causing abortions. The UN study on teen sexuality confirms that US teens are having less sex but MORE abortions and pregnancies. Simple facts. By rabid opposition to sex education and access to birthcontrol the far right is actually responsible for a large percentage of abortions. No safety net, no education, no birth control certainly seem to equal increased abortions.

Abortion Issue?
Quite frankly, this is smoke screening. This is a non-issue. I have no concern that my right to choose is in jeopardy. The Supreme Court decides cases based on existing law. The legislative and executive branches cannot change these decisions. That's why the court was made to be life appointed.

As for when life begins, I'm impressed that someone finally pointed out the Genesis reference. I do not take anyone's word for what the Bible teaches. I read it for myself. This is why I do not belong to a church. None of them are true to the Bible. They try to put their own opinions over as Bible truth. The Bible calls this abomination. So do I.

I also am offended that anyone thinks I am incapable of making a moral decision and some man has to tell me what to do.

Hal and others
In 9th grade Biology(Catholic High School) before Roe vs. Wade we studied how babies are made.(sex education) We were given the basics without details.
Anyway at that point when life began was not a question. Every adolescent in that class room would have laughed at the discussions politicians are currently having about when life begins. Only idiots ignore the obvious.
Agreed there is no way to scientifically determine when that life gains a soul and personhood. So in all fairness to our fellow man we must assume it happens at the same point as conception.
I would also like to point out that in order to get rid of the growing child in the womb, he or she must be killed.
Another great thing about Catholic High school after Roe vs. Wade we were shown footage of an actual abortion so we knew.
Propaganda about a mass of cells didn't fool us.

Barbara
That is good to use the bible as a guide, but always remember that the bible is a set of books where none of the orginal texts exist. The catholic monks of olden days preserved the teaching of Jesus by hand copying the writings of Paul, etc., along with the great writings of the greek philosophers, of which also no orginal copies exist. That is why if you ever take a course in "The history of western civilization", and on the test is a question as to is given the credit for preserving western civilization throughtout the dark age, the answer is the catholic church.

Stranger 1 and Barbara
Are you asserting that Adam was an infant when God created him? Remember God took Adam right after He made him and put him to work in a garden. So your point is wrong.

ALSO BARBARA
The supreme court can override Roe v wade, and call it unconstitutional, which would then send the question of abortion back to the individual states, for each state to decide for itself if and when an abortion can be legally performed within its boarders. Many believe that this is were the question of abortion belongs, allowing communities to regulate for themselves and not DC.

Hal Donahue
Like many liberals, you seem to like to play fast and loose with "facts". Despite the claims made by Obama, which you seem to have swallowed whole, the abortion rate has been going DOWN not up in the last decade. As improved ultrasound technology has provided a clearer picture of the living CHILD inside the mother, more and more people have been realizing the obvious truth that the "fetus" is in fact a living human being.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts".

Great Article!
Obama is for abortion - even worse - partial birth abortion. He even voted for a bill that stated that if somehow a child survived an aborted birth, it is OK to starve the child to death. The real question regarding Obama is how he can state that he is a Christian and be for murdering innocent babies - which is exactly what partial birth abortion is!!

After listening to him over these many months I have come to the conclusion that Obama is nothing more than a power-hungry, socialistic, and pandering politician. He certainly is not a Christian given his voting record on abortion!
Thank goodness at least McCain is pro-life - with a 96% voting record and that he is willing to fight the war on terror. We do have a choice - though not perfect - at least infinitely better than Obama. I shudder to think what would happen to the Federal and Supreme Courts if we had more liberal judges selected by Obama and a Democratic Congress.

I truly believe that if we, who have good Christian values, because we don’t like McCain that much and allow Obama to be elected, then we deserve the devastating consequences. It is also critical that we vote for conservative Representatives and Senators as well as McCain so that our nation will be free from George Soros and his puppet, Obama.

Mr. Colson
I'm sorry I know this has nothing to do with the discussion on abortion but I wish you would do several columns on this topic. Why are so many evangelical churches grasping at statism. There is nothing Christian about using the government to steal from taxpayers to give to the poor. I don't believe these are really Christian churches. Socialism as you know comes from the humanist/atheist religion.

And Barbara
in this country it is right and duty to offend.

Hal’s tortured Logic
Nobody can force anybody to have an abortion. As the pro murder crowd love to point out it’s a choice. The issue comes down to one salient point. Is the fetus human or not. What dismays the abortionists is that the more science learns about human development pre birth it is vindicating the pro life cause. What really makes the abortionists squeamish is should the abortion abomination finally be ended the fact that these people advocated child murder will have no legal cover for their depravity. Much like slave owners in our past they will be vilified for supporting an institution that is clearly morally reprehensible.

Pelosi on abortion
Pelosi represents San Francisco in the U.S. Congress, a constituency the most liberal, left leaning extant. If this 'ardent Roman Catholic' publicly declared, she subscribed to the Church's teaching on abortion, she would no longer be Speaker of the House, but would not be re-elected. To this person, political power far exceeds any philosophical and religious beliefs. The political mindset eludes the comprehension of most normal (and abnormal) individuals, man and women. Pelosi is a simple explanation since her being and mind are simple

When?
The Catholic church in Medieval times determined life to have begun during, 'the quickening', the fetuses first movements; seems fair to me.
If, as many say here, that life begins at conception, and if, as is widely known, upward of 20% of conceptions are 'naturally' aborted, does this make God the greatest abortionist? Or merely a wise and loving father terminating the lives of his beloved children before they begin? Hey, who knows, maybe they mooned Him in the womb?
Rob.

Bible is not basis of our laws
Stop using your religion, especially Christianity, as proof that something should be against the law or not.

Out of the 10 Commandments, only 3 are actually used in our legal system.

Abortion is not murder because of the special circumstances... the fetus is inside another human being. No matter how much science learns about conception, the fact remains that the fetus will not survive outside of the womb at conception.

Haeckel's legacy
The "its just a lump of cells" argument about the human fetus is a late-19th and 20th century legacy of Ernst Haeckel's fraudulent "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" discovery. His idea was that the fetus retraces the evolutionary path of development as it "evolves" into a human towards end-of-term. So, an early fetus is much more like a fish with gills than a human being. This gave "scientific justification" to those who wanted to view human embryos and fetuses as non-human.

However Haeckels' drawings were frauds, purposely constructed to make embryos of various species look more similar than reality at various stages. This fact did not escape his contemporaries in the 19th century, who severely criticized his work. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a human embryo that, early on, devotes almost a third of its cells into creating a placenta has nothing in common with a salamander embryo which does no such thing. And yet, because his catchy phrase "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" is seen as supportive of the religion of evolution, his proven-fraudulent drawings still appear in biology textbooks today as "proof" of evolution!

Before this, even though abortions have occured throughout recorded history, there was never any doubt that what was being killed was human life. Dr. Del Tacket teaches that every sin begins with someone believing a lie to be truth. Haeckel's legacy of lies has been the beginning of many, whether directly knowingly or not, to believe they were simply killing "a lump of cells".

Didache
The Didache also talks about the sins of adultery, magic & sorcery... should we outlaw those sins as well?

Joycey
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 8:43 AM EST Hal and others
In 9th grade Biology(Catholic High School) before Roe vs. Wade we studied how babies are made.(sex education) We were given the basics without details.
Anyway at that point when life began was not a question. "

Well it so happens that when life begins was never a question and I went to Catholic HS too. Abortion was illegal. The poor girls in town went to an abortionist or to a home for unwed mothers, the more well off went out of town for a while and the well connected oe well off girls had a D & C for irregular periods. The simple fact is that by helping destroy the social network (voting conservative), opposing contracption and opposing real sex education you folks are absolutely responsible (along with the far left) for more abortions. That is a FACT.

"...Agreed there is no way to scientifically determine when that life gains a soul and personhood. So in all fairness to our fellow man we must assume it happens at the same point as conception. "

We MUST? If god causes a huge number of abortions the god is OK with it?

"I would also like to point out that in order to get rid of the growing child in the womb, he or she must be killed."

I put to you that a zygote or fertilized egg is not a child. A six month fetus has much more standing there

"Another great thing about Catholic High school after Roe vs. Wade we were shown footage of an actual abortion so we knew.
Propaganda about a mass of cells didn't fool us. "

Did the show you the bodies of dead girls from botched abortions too? My own personal opinion is your folks and the far left both just keep you folks fired up just to fund raise

Freedom to Abort is necessary
"...freedom can exist at no lesser price than the danger of damnation; and if freedom is indeed the essence of man's being, that which distinguishes him from the beasts, he must be free to choose his worst as well as his best end. Unless he can choose his worst, he cannot choose his best." Frank Meyer

You wouldn't know it from Colson's column, but there has been a long dispute among conservatives about whether freedom or virtue was man's highest end.

The question is whether conservatives desire to use the police power of the State to enforce Christian morality on every citizen, including those who are not Christian and, therefore may not believe that abortion is a bad thing.

Frank Meyer's position is that whatever the morality of abortion freedom is the highest good and we must be free to choose abortion.

The Catholic church and evangelicals are certainly encouraged to make their views on abortion known, but they are wrong to support the use of the State's police power to end abortion. Religiously, it should be up to God to deal with this if it is a sin and not up to man.

Chaput and others who use the coercion sanctions of the Church against Catholics like Kerry and Pelosi are using strong arm methods to intrude into secular democratic issues and should be condemned for their high handed misuse of their authority. They are the enemies of Democracy.

Abortion - no big deal
Abortion was not a big deal to the Religious Right, even after Roe v Wade.

The Religious Right cared more about the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones Univ. than about abortion in the 1970's.

It wasn't until about 1980 (7 years AFTER the Roe v Wade decision) that the Religious Right decided that abortion would be a good issue to rile up their base.

The Irony of abortion today
is that the push to first criminalize abortion in this country, in the late 19th century, was led by the American Medical Association and feminist groups.

The AMA saw the rampet quackery of abortion methods of the era as both medically dangerous and immoral. As such, the AMA pushed for total abolition of the practice. The feminists, such as Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Stanton, saw abortion as just another way of making it possible for men to take advantage of women without consequences. Specifically, that married men were cheating on their wives with prostitutes, then "covering their tracks" with an abortion when necessary.

How times have changes.

Lepanto
You make a good point. The right has been very successful at killing abortion rights through a thousand cuts. It's time to stop this nonsense about when life begins and a body is ensouled and is a fetus a human being. Time to stop this in its tracks.

A woman should have an absolute right to an abortion, period. No nuances. No science. She should an absolute right. You conservatives can continue talking among yourselves about all the points that interest you but they should make no difference to the law. And you should shut your mouths and act as law abiding citizens of the United States.

Bravo, Proud Liberal
You have given us another clear example of a liberals thought life.

Your ideas are unacceptable in a country of personal liberty. The most foundational being the right to LIFE.

There are plenty of statist/humanist countries calling you home. Go be with them.

syler
Since the Catholic Church is one it took only hours to decry Roe vs. Wade. I was in Catholic School at the time. We wept in the hallways. What were the Protestants doing? Probably debating amongst themselves. But eventually came to the same conclusion. Know at this time many liberal denominations had already left the Christian Faith.

Proud Liberal at 9:42
Carrying your point to its logical conclusion we should be free to do anything we want with no consequences be it kidnapping, murder, bank robbery or anything else viewed illegal or offensive. And yes I recognize that abortion is legal. Killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany but I suspect you would get few people to agree that it was moral or right. And yes God will deal with the sin aspect of things but actions have temporal consequences as well. You are correct that the freedom vs. virtue debate has long been with us and will remain so in the future. But no society can survive that sets no limits on behavior whatsoever. We should be careful about restricting freedoms yes but that should not mean no restictions at all.

To Hal - Reply # 8
Your assertion is absurd. I've seen so called "comprehensive" sex education materials, and they are indoctrination in the sexual revolution. For example, one set of materials I reviewed stated that codoms prevent pregnancy, whereas abstenance reduces the risk of pregancy. Huh??? Furthermore, students are envouraged to distrust parents and traditional moral authorities. Given the emphasis on self-esteem and the free-wheeling assertions that teenagers are masters of their own fates and consequences be damned, we have an erosion of values with predictable results. I have no objection to knowledge, but it must be *real* rather than the encouragement to bypass the wisdom of the ages that fulfills sex ed curricula today. By concentrating on sexual plumbing, rather than time tested virtues of honesty, integrity and fostering a sense of responsibility, this country has reaped the whirlwind. But we can't have that! After all such talk is so much religious mumbo-jumbo.

Joycey
Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 10:34 AM EST Subject: ...Your ideas are unacceptable in a country of personal liberty. The most foundational being the right to LIFE."

For all human beings where does the constution or the founding fathers address the zygote?

"There are plenty of statist/humanist countries calling you home. Go be with them. "

there are plenty of third world nations outlawing abortion go to them or better yet why not join the political process as a citizen and leave your religion out of it. Right now as we speak you folks are causing much increased abortions because you are unable to compromise - literally throwing the baby out with the bath water

George
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 11:07 AM EST Subject: To Hal - Reply # 8
Your assertion is absurd. I've seen so called "comprehensive" sex education materials, and they are indoctrination in the sexual revolution. "

The results are there for all to see. Your way has simply resulted in more teen pregnancy and more abortions per capita versus most of the industrialised nations.

"For example, one set of materials I reviewed ... Huh??? Furthermore, students are envouraged to distrust parents and traditional moral authorities."

Then you are reviewing the wrong ones. Try reviewing other countries materials to see what is working.

"....I have no objection to knowledge, but it must be *real* rather than the encouragement to bypass the wisdom of the ages that fulfills sex ed curricula today."

What "wisdom of the ages"? The ones that OK slavery or set the age of consent at 12?

"... By concentrating on sexual plumbing, rather than time tested virtues of honesty, integrity and fostering a sense of responsibility, this country has reaped the whirlwind."

Hmmm this country is BY FAR the most churchgoing large nation in the world Why are less 'religious" country getting much better results??

"...But we can't have that! After all such talk is so much religious mumbo-jumbo."

Actually the virtues of honesty, integrity and fostering a sense of responsibility are common in many societies and not necessarily in religious demoninations i.e. the predators hidden by the Catholic Church or Pat Robertson's diamond mine fiasco.

Proud Liberal
The recent statement by the Catholic Church states it best:

The bishops said Biden was right to say human life begins at conception. But the church "does not teach this as matter of faith; it acknowledges it as a matter of objective fact," they said.

"Protection of innocent human life is not an imposition of personal religious conviction but a demand of justice," they added.

Recent scientific evidence on human development is lending weight to the Church’s position. Your view that freedom to abort is necessary is as inane the view that I could murder my boss because he is inconveniencing my ability to be promoted.

Barbara

Barbara: I do not take anyone's word for what the Bible teaches. I read it for myself. This is why I do not belong to a church. None of them are true to the Bible. They try to put their own opinions over as Bible truth. The Bible calls this abomination. So do I.


Jen: The Bible was written by men. So I guess you are accepting their word. How can you be sure you aren’t putting your opinion in how to interpret the Bible when you read it? How can you be so sure you are interpreting the Bible correctly?

Why, if only God had been able to predict our human limitations and provide us with something here on earth to assure we are following His teachings correctly. If only He would have helped us out a little and provided us with let’s say a church or something.


Barbara: I also am offended that anyone thinks I am incapable of making a moral decision and some man has to tell me what to do


Would you agree sometimes our ability to make good moral decisions can become clouded? Do you have children? Do you ever give them moral advice, or do you assume they don’t need anyone to tell them what to do?

It must be nice to know you are always the smartest one in the room.


Hal Donohue

Hal Donohue: By rabid opposition to sex education and access to birthcontrol the far right is actually responsible for a large percentage of abortions. No safety net, no education, no birth control certainly seem to equal increased abortions.

Jen: Actually, I think you have it a little backwards. It is precisely b/c of things like access to birth control and poor sex ed curriculums why there are so many abortions today. It’s called a “contraceptive mentality.” In short, with the introduction of artificial contraception, sex became viewed as merely recreational and without consequences. The more sex people have the more likely they are to get pregnant. As pregnancies increase, abortions increase.

Lepanto:How many women support abortion?
I don't know and perhaps we should find out. Could it be 500,000 in the United States, and how would knowing that affect our decision on abortion law?

Suppose that between 10-20 million women in the United States want abortion to be legal by the federal government laws. Do we in the United States purposely and consciously disenfranchise 10-20 million women; do we in the United States render 10-20 million women second class citizens; do we in the United States dismiss the wishes of 10-20 million women?

I think the Chaput likes to imagine that he is living in the Vatican, with it's ordained hierarchy and established and traditional authoritarianism. But, unfortunately for him, he is living in a Democracy called the United States. Chaput will have to adapt.

Chuck
Christians in America are a "Joke". Where is the outrage about the 15 year old Iraqi girl, that was killed and raped?Along with her family,I might add. Christians don't tell "Lies" they just sing them!!!

Wilson54
Those with weak arguments always bring up Nazi Germany, as you do.

You say that my logic says we should be free to do anything we want even though it is looked upon askance by other people.

Well, what if abortion is viewed favorably by 20 million women and another 20 million men in the United States? Does your comparison with murder and bank robbery still hold?

In all the posts by THers I don't see any conservatives addressing, recognizing or admitting that there may be 50 million Americans who support a woman's right to choose abortion. In my opinion most conservative positions on issues get there by ignoring or denying such reality. I think this is another case of denial.

Proud Liberal
Our legal system correctly errors on the side of life in a capital case where some of the facts cannot be completely verified. Many times life imprisonment will be given in lieu of the death penalty. Only in the instance of abortion where the facts are in doubt do we error on the side of death. Your analogy of the 10-20 million women who may believe abortion is ok is immaterial. The pro abortion side cannot make a definitive argument that life does not begin at conception. Thus you need to error on the side of life and assume it begins at conception if you wish to be consistent with our legal precedence. What I wish to avoid is treating the pre-birthed baby as a second class citizen.

I am grateful that our legal system has not yet decided who lives or dies by popular vote.

Jen
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:08 PM EST Hal Donohue

Hal Donohue: By rabid opposition to sex education and access to birthcontrol the far right is actually responsible for a large percentage of abortions. No safety net, no education, no birth control certainly seem to equal increased abortions.

Jen: Actually, I think you have it a little backwards. It is precisely b/c of things like access to birth control and poor sex ed curriculums why there are so many abortions today. "

The numbers simply do not support you. Experience world wide shows precisely the opposite

"....The more sex people have the more likely they are to get pregnant. As pregnancies increase, abortions increase..."

simply not true at all. Modern science and medicine does wonders. Do you have concerns about modern medicine keeping folks alive a lot longer thru artifical means like blood pressure pills, surgery or cancer treatments? Are they not "interfering" with God's authority?

Old horse
I AM surprised abortion keeps coming up.

It must be the old 60's era protesters who keep
it going.

As a younger person - it just seems like such an
old issue.

The law isn't going to change. And WHO CARES if people do have choice. God cares about us
making the right ones. You can't do that if it
has been legislated away.

If a greater majority choose life abortion becomes more and more of a non-issue.

Lepanto
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:42 PM EST"...Only in the instance of abortion where the facts are in doubt do we error on the side of death. "

A zygote is not a human being nor should it be under law

"...The pro abortion side cannot make a definitive argument that life does not begin at conception."

Oh no all you do is claim that it does. You must make the unmakable argument that is does

" Thus you need to error on the side of life and assume it begins at conception if you wish to be consistent with our legal precedence. "

LMAO Rubbish. there is no logical support for your life argument none

"What I wish to avoid is treating the pre-birthed baby as a second class citizen."

I can easily solve that problem for you: a zygote is NOT under our or any other constitution a citizen

"I am grateful that our legal system has not yet decided who lives or dies by popular vote. "

sure it does How many troops amd Iraqis have we and are we killing?

Jen
Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:44 PM EST Subject: Jen
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:08 PM EST Hal Donohue

Hal Donohue: By rabid opposition to sex education and access to birthcontrol the far right is actually responsible for a large percentage of abortions. No safety net, no education, no birth control certainly seem to equal increased abortions

It is not a legal decision It really is a medical/healthcare decision. I am not at all certain why you want the government in our bedrooms and bodies

Allison
Once you logically determine that life begins at conception and abortion is murder why would you believe the issue would go away? I bet if it became legal to kill people from Alabama because it is an inconvenience for Mississippians to drive through your state on the way to Florida you would be grateful if Americans pointed out the error in this. Contrary to what the left wishes America to believe more that half believe abortion is wrong. Not all of these people would wish to do away with abortion but I believe that is because many have not given logical thought about the issue. Science is the greatest ally in the pro-life cause and will continue to change minds.

Hal Donohue

Sorry Hal, you miss the big picture . . .


“We need to realize that a society in which contraceptives are widely used is going to have a very difficult time keeping free of abortions since the lifestyles and attitudes that contraception fosters create an alleged "need" for abortion.

Many believe that if we could convince men and women to use contraceptives responsibly we would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and thus the number of abortions. Thirty years ago this position might have had some plausibility, but not now. We have lived for about thirty years with a culture permeated with contraceptive use and abortion; no longer can we think that greater access to contraception will reduce the number of abortions. Rather, wherever contraception is more readily available the number of unwanted pregnancies and the number of abortions increases greatly.” -- by Janet E. Smith, PhD


No evidence that souls exist
In a post earlier this week I declared that too often certain assumptions remain unscrutinized, assumptions that underlie a chain of logic, which logic will be invalid if the assumption is invalid.

The assumption that a zygote (to borrow Hal's word) is ensouled at some point, and I think that Christians are assuming that it is at conception - can you imagine how dramatic that point in time is - is one of those assumptions.

It brings with it a whole chain of unstated beliefs, a system of belief actually lies behind that assumption.

And yet there is no evidence that an entity separate from the material person/zygote either in womb or out of womb really exists.

But, the Christian assumption is that the soul is the real person. The body is simply a material thing which will decay and be of no more use, but the soul is the real and important part of the person and is eternal and will either go to heaven or hell.

Why then all the fuss over a zygote? If we terminate the zygote the soul goes immediately to heaven if it is an evangelical soul and to purgatory if it is a Catholic soul. Why the big deal about the materal essence?

Hal Donohue Liberal Icon
Hal, you are a fine example of the left’s intellectual capability. I know I speak for all the conservatives at Townhall that we are glad to have you here. It gives conservatives the confidence to know in the battle of ideas we have nothing to fear.

Thanks again!

p.s. Proud Liberal, I cannot put you in the same category as Hal because I do find your comments to be well thought out and intelligent. I may not agree with you but you stay on topic and don’t get personal.

The unalienable right to life Pt 1
After scanning the previous posts, I would like to add my thoughts:

First, as to the place of Christianity in law, I would like to remind the readers that Christianity is the basis of Common Law. This is not my opinion; it was the opinion of Blackstone, Locke, Hooker, Montesquieu, Grotius and Puffendorf, just to name a few. All of these writers thought Christianity was the best foundation of society and law and their ideas laid the cornerstone for American jurisprudence. The ideas of the Declaration of Independence (DOI) were heavily influenced by Locke.

http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/index.html is an online source for natural law literature.

Locke believed that man has unalienable rights to life, liberty and property (property including your person, not just your possessions). These unalienable rights are non-negotiable and were the basis of Jefferson’s scathing writings regarding slavery in his original Declaration, which were subsequently omitted upon congressional edit. The right to life is not a choice as no man has the authority to take another innocent life (innocent being the operative word as Locke fully believed in the death penalty for those who violated natural law by committing murder).

The unalienable right to life Pt 2
The issue of abortion is not one of rights, it is one of value. The baby is not valued by the mother; therefore some of you think it wise to revoke the unalienable right to life and label it as ‘choice’. It was not so long ago that the slave was not valued by his master nor by a good percentage of the population; thus the slave was denied his right to life, liberty and property. These issues are the same. Either a man has the right to deprive another of his unalienable rights or he does not. Value, or popular opinion I might add, should not be a consideration when attaching unalienable rights.

The stated purpose of government in the DOI is to ensure these rights and because of this, it can not be an issue decided by the states. Either the USA is guided by and ensures natural law or it does not. The passions of men should not neither deter nor rescind the rights granted by God. For those of you who oppose the Judeo-Christian basis of law, I suggest you study the rights afforded to the individual in secular governments. When law is based on a standard of opinions or contemporary reason its only course is to become capricious and arbitrary. The Framers believed that an immutable source of law was the best foundation of a stable society, and I am inclined to agree with them.

Finally, an individual’s actions are his own. Once you blame society for the actions of the individual, you condemn the masses for the transgression of the individual. I can think of no quicker way to oppress mankind and eradicate liberty.

Noman
I wholeheartedly agree with your argument. You said it much more eloquently than I.

Proud Liberal

Proud Liberal: Why then all the fuss over a zygote? If we terminate the zygote the soul goes immediately to heaven if it is an evangelical soul and to purgatory if it is a Catholic soul. Why the big deal about the materal essence?

Jen: To show the value of life. To show that we are not God. We cannot choose when life should begin or end. With this logic, why not off dear Aunt Sally when she gets up in age? If she was as sweet and wonderful as we all know she was, she would go to heaven. Let’s speed things along for her, shall we? Why we're at it, all those kids with downs syndrome would surely go to heaven. If they are financially and emotionally draining us, let's send them off.

Proud Liberal

Proud Liberal: Why then all the fuss over a zygote? If we terminate the zygote the soul goes immediately to heaven if it is an evangelical soul and to purgatory if it is a Catholic soul. Why the big deal about the materal essence?

Jen: To show the value of life. To show that we are not God. We cannot choose when life should begin or end. With this logic, why not off dear Aunt Sally when she gets up in age? If she was as sweet and wonderful as we all know she was, she would go to heaven. Let’s speed things along for her, shall we? Why we're at it, all those kids with downs syndrome would surely go to heaven. If they are financially and emotionally draining us, let's send them off.

Sins
Syler in his or her posting wonders if we should outlaw the sins of adultery, magic & sorcery.

Perhaps Syler has heard of the Ten Commandments, in which adultery is forbidden?

Magoc & sorcery are practices forbidden to Christians, if not to Syler.

Proud Liberal

Proud Liberal: think the Chaput likes to imagine that he is living in the Vatican, with it's ordained hierarchy and established and traditional authoritarianism. But, unfortunately for him, he is living in a Democracy called the United States. Chaput will have to adapt.

Jen: Did you not read the article? It is the politicians who are crossing the line involving themselves in theology. Chaput is well qualified to preach about theological matters, being a theologian and all. Pelosi, on the other hand, should probably not speak of which she knows so little about. As Colson said, “In that case, my suggestion is that these politicians spare us their uninformed and inadequate theories about what Christianity teaches.”


Jen
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 2:16 PM EST Subject: .... Jen: To show the value of life. To show that we are not God. We cannot choose when life should begin or end.... let's send them off."

We do chose when life ends now. These extraordinary surgical and medical procedures are in fact prolonging life. You are correct concerning the dangers of being flippant about life. Like the French general who when told there were "true Christians" in a city being destroyed said something along the lines of kill them all and let God sort them out. That is always a danger. Heck we are guilty of it now when making light of prisoners who die undergoing "enhanced interrogation"

Proud Liberal re: your thoughts
I do hope your questions are for purely intellectual pursuit as opposed to personal beliefs. When a human being has rights attached due to his value, you end up with tribunals whose purpose is to control the lives of mankind, much like the one proposed by Margaret Sanger in her essay, 'A Plan for Peace.'

http://www.scribd.com/doc/327166/1932-Margaret-Sanger-A-Pla n-for-Peace

I would like to know your thoughts on the agenda set out by the founder of Planned Parenthood.

I especially like her stated responsibility of the tribunal:

"The first step would thus be to control the intake and output of morons, mental defectives, epileptics."

"second step would be to take an inventory of the secondary group such as illiterates, paupers, unemployables, criminals, prostitutes, dope-fiends; classify them in special departments under government medical protection, and segregate them on farms and open spaces as long as necessary for the strengthening and development of moral conduct."

Sounds like paradise, no?

If I am making an unfair characterization because I have not read the entire content of Birth Control Review, please let me know.



Syler:
The bottom line of your argument is that the baby is in the mother's womb, so she has the right to kill the innocent.

1. How did the baby get there, immaculately? didn't she consent to it, except for rape?

2. Suppose is ship-wrecked, and a 5 lb baby holds onto her back as she swims to shore. Wouldn't she be committing manslaughter is she swatted the baby off?

Michele
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 2:04 AM EST Subject: Conscience is the issue
.... Which goes to say that religion is a good thing and should be promoted, as it performs the essential task of forming and informing a good conscience. An essential asset to every person. "

Having served in areas where Catholic, protestant, sunni, Shite, Israeli, Christian, hindus, etc all fought in the name of "GOD". I once did think that organised religion did more good than harm but no longer especially in the political arena. Our Founding Fathers had serious reservations about religion in politics coming from an era of religious conflict similar to our own era. What religion does is remove compromise from politics. A diverse community cannot then solve differences without submitting completely or fighting to the death. Once someone says "God says..." there can no longer be compromise - abortion is a classic example even unto the violence ala' Rudolph etc..

Proud Lib, you are well named,
because it is your pride that automatically, knee-jerkedly closes your mind to pro-life arguments. As in one of your posts, you pompously said the other day, "I declared..." Who the bleep are you to be issuing declarations?

1. You throw in a red herring argument. No one I know is talking about using police power. We just want the law to change, so that it doesn't not put our nation in the position of saying that abortion is a good thing.

2. Unbelievably, you tell us to "shut our mouths." How intemperate of you, how illiberal of you. tsk tsk Would you have been one of the ones to tell the abolitionists to clam up, for the harmony of the nation?

3. You ask: would we disenfranchise 10-20 million women? The answer is yes, IF, as we assert, abortion is the unjustified taking of an innocent human life. And that is the issue at question.

Question for the Libs
You guys like bringing in Capital Punishment when discussing abortion..which is fair. The prisoner has representation during his/her ordeal..who represents the fetus/baby before and after the abortion?

US Constitution
Amendment 4

The right of the people to be secure in their persons....

Amendment 14

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States....


*All persons have the Constitutional right to self and cannot be forced to become a means to an end in order to support the life of another.

Alison; Proud lib; any humble lib
Alison: You say the law (roe v. wade) is not going to change. Don't be so sure. There are already 4 conservative votes on the SCOTUS. Here conservative means 'strict constructionist,' as in what was the original intent of those who wrote and those who approved the Constitution. Surely none of them were pro-abortion.
Who knows where Justice Kennedy is today on the issue? If McCain, pleasegod, is elected, then perhaps one of the pro-abortion judges will retire or die. after all, what is Stevens, something like 87? Then a 5 original intent majority MIGHT (not guaranteed, they've disappoined before) overrule roe. Then it would be sent back to the states where it belongs. then this evil would not be forced on the good citizens of the states where they don't want it, and the libs in NY, CA, MA etc. can contracept and abort themselves into population implosion, like Eurabia.

Confession to Make
Of the many sins of my youth, belief in the morality of abortion was perhaps the worst.

I've come to believe that abortion is indeed morally unacceptable, a grave sin objectively speaking.

"As long as you don't harm someone..." That was sort of the criterion.

One also had "authoritative" texts like Aristotle and "flexible" interpretations of "flexible" notions of justice, right and wrong, etc.

Phoooey. I've come around at long last to our Holy Father's way of thinking, i.e., the 2000 year Tradition.

This Magisterium, this Tradition, this Sacred Scripture (note the role of life in the womb in the Psalms)...THIS is where the action is.

Atheistic Humanism
Of the many sins of my youth, belief in the morality of abortion was perhaps the worst.

I've come to believe that abortion is indeed morally unacceptable, a grave sin objectively speaking.

"As long as you don't harm someone..." That was sort of the criterion.

One also had "authoritative" texts like Aristotle and "flexible" interpretations of "flexible" notions of justice, right and wrong, etc.

Phoooey. I've come around at long last to our Holy Father's way of thinking, i.e., the 2000 year Tradition.

This Magisterium, this Tradition, this Sacred Scripture (note the role of life in the womb in the Psalms)...THIS is where the action is.

Life & liberty v tyranny...

‘…my suggestion is that these politicians spare us their uninformed and inadequate theories about what Christianity teaches.’ –Chuck Colson


Mr. Colson, what a sad commentary on the state of the nation when the Speaker of the House, the leader of the peoples’ representatives, is ignorant of the founding principles of America contained in the founding documents. Does Roe v Wade trump the Declaration of Independence?

American’s hold that governments are instituted among men to insure the God given rights of life and liberty, and when a government is destructive to these ends it is the right and duty of the people to make the necessary corrections.

Will we fulfill our duty using the freedom given us in America? We could start by replacing the speaker with an American who loves liberty rather than tyranny.

valientfortruth
---is ignorant of the founding principles of America contained in the founding documents. Does Roe v Wade trump the Declaration of Independence?---

Apparently, you are the person ignorant of what is in our founding documents. I will repeat...

Amendment 4

The right of the people to be secure in their persons....

Amendment 14

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States....

*You and all of your zealotrous kind are the people trying to undermine our country by resting freedom from its citizens in your jihadist attempts to secure a theocratic nation ala Iran.

Syler/Joycey
I am offended by your misinformed abasement of non catholic Christians. I can understand Syler's because he's a nincompoop liberal.

However, I have had a lot of respect for your
thoughts in various posts on various subjects.
You don't know what you are talking about.
I am an evangelical, I was raised in the low Episcopal church, later joined my husbands conservative Lutheran church before we left for a non denominational church. I left the EPUSA long before abortion became an issue and given it's current history, I am glad I did. My husbands church was among the first to decry abortion, while not as visible as the Catholic church they did and still do oppose abortion.
In fact, the principal of my husbands lutheran H.S. was one of the first in our city to speak out and show abortion films in local churches regardless of denomination. That's how I became acquainted with this horror when he spoke to a Catholic womans group. That was in November 1972, and I've been working in it ever since. The Catholic church has my deepest respect for taking leadership on this issue, however it's rather arrogant to demean your fellow Christians for something you know nothing about. I worked with two Assembly of God Pastors 25 years ago, picketing a local abortuary, they were arrested and tried and
their supporters came from all faiths. It isn't just Christians, there are many orthodox jewish people who are also very involved.

Abortion
When will we begin murderering the aged. The infirmed. The mentally handicapped. The physically handicapped.
Has mankind really progressed over the hundreds and thousands of years. Or has man regressed, but just too stupid to see it.
People cannot accept responsibility for their actions and someone else must become the victim or the sacrifice.
The whole issue of rights has gotten so far out of hand and taken to the extreme that it will end costing this country plenty.
A human is made of three parts. Body, soul and spirit. Make no mistake in that all three are present in the womb from the time of conception.
God told Isaiah that He had made him and formed from the womb.
One can use every justification through reason and thought for abortion, but it is still a sin against the body and most importantly against God.

Hal DonaPuke
You will burn in hell you misinformed cur. Your stupid posts have been the bain of these threads. Why can't you just go away. Do us all a favor and just STFU

Hak Donahue
Is a lying sack of feces. He is an unpatriotic amoral fool. He is a liar and a coward. He cares not for his fellow man. He is a selfish self serving pig. Cheers

CharletonHeston
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 9:25 PM EST Subject: Hal DonaPuke
You will burn in hell you misinformed cur. Your stupid posts have been the bain of these threads. Why can't you just go away. Do us all a favor and just STFU "

If caring for your fellow man means you are off to hell so be it. I post where and when I have the time and the interest. You need help consider me as one bearing light to the unsaved...

CharletonHeston
"Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 9:37 PM EST Hak Donahue
Is a lying sack of feces. He is an unpatriotic amoral fool. He is a liar and a coward. He cares not for his fellow man. He is a selfish self serving pig. Cheers "

Ahh a nice "christian" response, girl. But the problem is that I did spend 20 years serving my country. Have you? Patriotism? Heck let me sum it up as my wife had to when she opposed the Bush Regime's Iraq War. She was literally being abused because she said invading Iraq was not dumb but STUPID. A woman literally screamed at her calling her a traitor and unpatriotic. My wife looked her right in the eye and slammed her military ID card on the counter saying show me yours! You can BS all you want but do not dare call me a traitor or unpatriotic I spent my life supporting this country. Like a good conservative she said nothing and shortly after went home sick

don
---When will we begin murderering the aged. The infirmed. The mentally handicapped. The physically handicapped.---

What does this have to do with a woman’s right of self? None of these examples are physically bound and dependent upon another person’s body. They are all independent, if not self-aware, beings.

---Has mankind really progressed over the hundreds and thousands of years. Or has man regressed, but just too stupid to see it.---

Study some history.

---People cannot accept responsibility for their actions and someone else must become the victim or the sacrifice.---

What you call not accepting responsibility others would call being responsible.

As for sacrificing [and this also applies to the previous question]…

Judges 11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering 11:34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. 11:39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed…

----A human is made of three parts. Body, soul and spirit.---

Umm. No! The human is made of protein, fat, carbohydrates, water and trace minerals. The ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are mythological inventions.

---Make no mistake in that all three are present in the womb from the time of conception.---

See previous.

---God told Isaiah that He had made him and formed from the womb.---

Yeah, and there was a worldwide flood, a tower to heaven, giants and demons…

Taking an 2000+ year old story and trying to make it relevant today, even though we know it is not factually accurate is a foolish method of developing an accurate worldview.

They had it Right the first time.
As Archbishop Chaput said about the early church
stating that abortion is "MURDER OF A CHILD".
That is precisely what it is and some day soon
the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS will pass his final judgement(ETERNAL HELL FIRE)upon all those that were involved with this despicable practice.
How covenant it is for people to call it a
choice rather than face the responsabilty of
conseving a child.

St. Augustine Was Pro-life.
St. Augustine wrote in his masterpiece, City of God,

“Sometimes their sadistic licentiousness goes so far that they procure poison to produce infertility, and when this is of no avail, they find one means or another to destroy the unborn and flush it from the mother’s womb. For they desire to see their offspring perish before it is alive or, if it has already been granted life, they seek to kill it within the mother’s body before it is born.”

Speaker Pelosi makes the most monstrous assertion when she implies that the great Doctor of the Catholic Church may have been pro-abortion.

St. Augustine was clearly Pro-Life.

at Joycey and Happy Jake

Joycey
Location: OH

Reply # 11
Date: Sep 10, 2008 - 8:57 AM EST Subject: Stranger 1 and Barbara
Are you asserting that Adam was an infant when God created him? Remember, God took Adam right after He made him and put him to work in a garden. So your point is wrong.

-----------------------
No Joycey, I did not say that Adam was created as an infant. To the contrary, Genesis 2: 7 clearly says God formed Adam as a MAN from the dust of the earth.

Happy Jake, I have read Psalm 139:16 many times. IN that passage God adresses predestination and foreknowledge.

David said: , "your eyes saw my substance yet unformed..."

He said the same thing to Jeremiah and Paul.

These passages show God's foreknowledege and states that God knew who was going to be born, and that watched their progess through gestation. Even a sparrow does not escape his attention.

It does NOT however, say when God breathed the spirit of life into David's body making him a living soul.
No one knows for certain when God places a spirit into a developing human body.

But he gives us a HINT when tells us in Genesis: 2:7 that he breathed the spirit of life into Adam AFTER he was fully formed physically-thus, making him a living soul.

And thats good enough
for me-in the absence of any clear declaration in the scriptures that he nowadays places the spirit in a body at conception.(knowing many embryos will not implant and other embryos will miscarry spontaneously or due to accidents without the intervention of man)

by the way Adam literaly means "man" and could apply to all mankind, and not just the first man.

Joycey, the fact that God immediately put him to work changes nothing.

If God was as worried as you are about abortion, dont you think he would have inspired the writers of the Old and new testaments to mention it in his word, speaking DIRECTLY to the point-as he did on such sins like gluttony and usury?






Life?
This whole thread seems to turn on the head of the concept of, 'when does life begin?'.
Catholics, believing contraception to be un-godly,obviously assume life to have begun before insemination:'every sperm is sacred'. Protestants, (the evangelical kind and other fundamentalist faiths) believe it occurs at the impregnation of the egg wall by the sperm.
Should the women naturally abort the zygote at this stage (very common) does the 'soul' of the two cell organism dwell in bliss with the Lord, what would you say to a zygote in heaven? 'How was your existance? What did you do in life?'
Better still, what would the zygote or, 2,4,6,8, month fetus chat about for eternity?
Life begins when you become aware of yourself and others; in humans roughly in the 4-6month period after birth. (I am not at this point advocating the option of terminating 4-6 month babies, they are obviously, at least initially- wanted) When you know you are alive, you are. When I don't know I am alive, please pull the plug, I'd hate to live like Americas favorite vegetable, Terry Schavo.
"I Think, Therefore I Am".

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas
Recently we have heard Nancy Pelosi reference St. Augustine, a third century bishop, as an authority on when life begins. St. Augustine also approved of slavery. Does that mean that Nancy Pelosi thinks slavery is acceptable?

Joe Biden was recently referencing St. Thomas Aquinas as an authority. St. Thomas was a 13th century theologian and Doctor of the church. Although he may be respected for his contributions he still represents 13th Century thinking.

Many think that the Catholic Church teachings are static. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Church forms Her teachings as the years change and our scientific knowledge and theology improves. However, the Church, in forming Her teachings can never contradict what has come before only build upon it. The Church can never contradict Christ or the Epistles of St. Paul but they can build on them. The early Church of St. Paul did not oppose slavery but did respect the slave. St. Paul said that if you were a slave and a Christian that you were obligated to be a good slave. The point is simply this, that the Church has a 21st Century position on Abortion and it is taught by the Bishops of today, not St. Augustine or St. Thomas who had a less perfect understanding of science and theology.

Politicians who quote outdated theology reveal their own lack of understanding of the Church and the role of the Bishops.

God bless Archbishop Chaput and the others who have spoken out to defend the defenseless. We should all, Catholic or not, understand that. One day we may be the defenseless. The alternative to defending life is nothing more than slavery.

RIGHT ON CHUCK
ITS HARD TO BELIEVE THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE SAYS LIFE BEGINS NOT AT CONCEPTION BUT 3MONTHS LATER,NANCY IS STILL AT WOOD STOCK,HER AND JOHN KERRY,AL GORE AND MANY OTHERS NEVER GOT OVER THE TRIP!OBAMA WHEN ASK THE SAME QUESTION ON WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN SAYS ITS ABOVE HIS PAY GRADE,THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT WANT THESE RADICAL LIBERALS TO TAKE OVER THE WHITE HOUSE THIS IS WHY WE ARE VOTING FOR MCCAIN-PALIN!

Americ is suffering
America is suffering unlawful deception from the Alinsky group.
Group u$urp$ power on January 20th—the constitution violated.
The United States Supreme Court alone can relieve this outrage.

example: Bogus Selective Service System FOIA Registration?
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_d id_n.html

Abortion
I do not want the government or any political party deciding what I can and cannot do with my body. I support abortion. It is a serious and agonizing decision for those who make that choice. It's personal. The majority of Americans have favored legal abortions in poll after poll. The GOP does not read the will of the people very well.

Abortion
I do not want the government or any political party deciding what I can and cannot do with my body. I support abortion. It is a serious and agonizing decision for those who make that choice. It's personal. The majority of Americans have favored legal abortions in poll after poll. The GOP does not read the will of the people very well.

Abortion and Torture
Now that the nation is so focused on the potential of torture, isn't it time we raised the issue that abortions, late term abortions at the very least, constitute torture! When one considers the procedure that is used by the abortionist to open to crack open the skulls of innocent baby boys and girls to hasten their evacuation from the womb, shouldn't our congress consider the option of eliminating abortions because of torture! What about the practice of leaving abortion survivors on isolated shelves in closets to die of neglect, thirst and starvation? How could any word other than torture be used to characterize this practice?

birth certificate
When your born you are issued a birth certificate, not a conception certificate.

little pope has got it wrong, but they love control, they love their edicts, but they do not follow scripture. perhaps popey and bishops could have that changed. seems to me if they were such champions of the truth, they would allow priest to be married as it satates in I Timothy, and was the historical practice of the church until 1200, and was the practice of The men who served God in the old Test.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.