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Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Neuroscience and God
by Chuck Colson
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In a recent issue of the New York Times, respected columnist David Brooks described how what he calls a “revolution in neuroscience” is shaping “how people see the world.” I agree with him—up to a point.

What Brooks calls the “revolution in neuroscience” is the rapidly growing body of research into phenomena such as religious experience and shared moral intuitions.

In one such experiment, volunteers are asked to imagine the following scenario: A village is under attack, and its residents are in hiding. Suddenly, a baby begins to cry. Its crying threatens to reveal their location.

Volunteers are asked whether killing the child to save the others is justified. Not only does the vast majority say “no”—thankfully—but CAT scans and EEGs reveal that the same part of their brains is active when they react to the question.

This and similar studies have, as Brooks put it, “shifted away the momentum” from seeing our minds in purely materialistic terms. Our brains are not “cold machines.” Rather, “meaning, belief and consciousness seem to emerge mysteriously from idiosyncratic networks of neural firings.”

And Brooks is right when he says that research like this will turn the recent debates over atheism into a “sideshow.” There is simply no way to sustain a “hard-core” materialistic understanding of human consciousness and morality in light of the new research. Where does the consciousness and moral decision-making come from?

However, I disagree with him when he writes that this research will pose a challenge to “faith in the Bible” and, instead, lead to what he calls “neural Buddhism.”

If anything, the opposite is true. This rebuttal of modern materialistic reductionism is a confirmation of what the Scriptures teach us about being created in the image of God.

It corroborates the biblical idea that we are, to use a modern phrase, “hard-wired” for spirituality and God. It suggests that we are irresistibly religious, as philosophers have always argued.

Now, Brooks goes on to say that this will lead to a form of vague spiritual mysticism. This will happen, he says, because Orthodox believers will have trouble defending “particular doctrines and particular biblical teachings.”

Well, Brooks is wrong. The evidence from neuroscience is only part of the picture. While the mystical religious experiences and moral intuitions he writes about are shared by many religious traditions, there is no comparable evidence for Buddhism’s other claims: Its tenets about reincarnation and the illusory nature of physical existence cannot be substantiated.

In contrast, as I point out in my book The Faith, the Bible’s claims can be substantiated. It makes the very same claims about universal moral intuitions that neuroscientists are now proving.

It is not only the Bible’s moral and anthropological claims that are being proven: Archeology is increasingly proving Scripture’s historical claims, as well.

In many ways, see, the Bible anticipates contemporary scientific discoveries—as in Romans 2. It is not because the writers of Scripture were lucky—it is because the Bible is the revealed Word of God.

As I wrote in The Faith, the two great propositions Christians believe are that “God is” and “God has spoken.” The discoveries Brooks describes validate both, which should not surprise any of us.

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About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
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Chuck writes:
In many ways, see, the Bible anticipates contemporary scientific discoveries—as in Romans 2.
----
I know, I am not the only one who has noticed, today we have more people trying to teach the bible and what Christianity is who are self-proclaimed unbelievers, than can be found in the Christian Church's across the world.

Being a reader of the book for over 40 years , I see how it is abused and never read to understand the subjects it speaks of.
And there is nothing that concerns the human experience, this book does not cover.
That is simply amazing in itself.

Mr Brooks is obviously one of the people who has an opinion is all, and of a book he knows very little about, as is the case for all like him.






You know
3 wire, I'd be careful if I were you. Scripture says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And also that as you judge so shall you be judged. I don't like the Senator very much myself but as a believer I am commanded to love my enemy and pray for those who dispitefully use me. And many times that isn't easy.
Yes, it was cruel and cowardly to leave Mary Jo to suffocate; he's lived in a prison of his own
making since that time. He lost the prize,
the Presidency because of his cowardice and has to live with that for decades, plus the scorn and contempt of many Americans. Scripture also says what does it profit a man that he gain the whole world and loses his soul. Kennedy's wealth, power and prestige didn't save him from this tumor.
Having had a mother go through H with cancer I wouldn't wish it on my dog much less another human being, even Kennedy.

Scripture also says
"by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive."

Our own medicine is the most bitter.

To Tea Party
I agree that 3wire should not have said what he did.
However, I differ with you about the impact of Chappaquidic on Sen. Kennedy.

Far from living in a prison of his own making, I am rather of the opinion that the man experienced no remorse at all over the matter. I reckon Miss Kopechne was a disposable nobody to him and that her death was nothing more than a road bump that he was pleased to survive politically.

I hope that I am wrong on this. Fortunately it is not mine to make final judgement on such matters. There is one who knows the secret hearts of people.

Tea Party
godly insights thanks.

Weak reasoning
If moral decisions WEREN'T in the brain, then that would prove religious explanations. The fact that moral reasoning is present in non-human primates, is present in the brain, and follows the logic of genetic reproduction is evidence that morals evolved like anything else. Your logic is pathetic and circular.

Does anyone here seriously doubt that Chuck would be jumping up and down if researchers proclaimed, "Moral reasoning is NOT in the brain!"

Colson Confusion
"And Brooks is right when he says that research like this will turn the recent debates over atheism into a 'sideshow.' There is simply no way to sustain a 'hard-core' materialistic understanding of human consciousness and morality in light of the new research."

All Brooks is saying is the current debates between D'Souza and Dawkins for example will be set aside for this question, not that it will disprove some imagined association between atheism and materialism.

"Where does the consciousness and moral decision-making come from?"

Why ask when you already gave the answer: "meaning, belief and consciousness seem to emerge mysteriously from idiosyncratic networks of neural firings.”

"Well, Brooks is wrong."

Why is that? You don't substantiate this. His reference to Buddhism is metaphorical, not religious.

"the two great propositions Christians believe are that “God is” and “God has spoken.” The discoveries Brooks describes validate both, which should not surprise any of us."

So I guess your book substantiates this claim? Sure would love to hear this one. How what Brooks says is wrong but validates your beliefs, how the finding that meaning, belief and consciousness as emergent properties of neural activity validates these propositions or that faith is hard-wired.

Overpaid and overignorant
>While the mystical religious experiences and moral intuitions he writes about are shared by many religious traditions, there is no comparable evidence for Buddhism’s other claims: Its tenets about reincarnation and the illusory nature of physical existence cannot be substantiated.

Yet a core tenet of christianity is that a man was born of a virgin could walk on the surface of water and walked after his own death. Pot, kettle, you know the colour.

Stuart

Disproven
>the Bible’s claims can be substantiated.

No wooden boat has been made of even half the length of the alleged Genesis ark, and the longest vessels break up without iron reinforcing. At the size of ark specified, and with the weight of the fauna and feed required (even conservatively estimated) it would sink when about 2/3 filled. There is a continuous overlapping dedrochronological record of britlecone pine ring growth going back at least 7,500 years and likely to 10,000 years ago. At no stage is there a complete simultaneous stoppage in growth consistent with the statements about the flood in Genesis. If the flood gave rise to the massive geological changes described by some creationists, how did low-lying rock drawings from before the flood survive intact? There is one example of the facts clearly contradicting the biblical account.

Stuart

The only way...
That neuroscience could be compatible with the bible is if christians accepted that there is no 'free will.' Our brains are hard wired and we have no true free will, only limited choices. This presents the christian with the problem of a cruel deity, like the one in the OT.

As for there being archaeological evidence, I ask what evidence? There is no evidence of the fantastical occurrences in either the old or new testaments and there is more evidence for a Babylonian ruler named Gilgamesh than Jesus.

When they find the garden of eden, with its flaming sword and angel guards, then you can say that there is archaeological evidence.

Weak Reason?
http://www.reason writes: "Weak reasoning: If moral decisions WEREN'T in the brain, then that would prove religious explanations. The fact that moral reasoning is present in non-human primates, is present in the brain, and follows the logic of genetic reproduction is evidence that morals evolved like anything else. Your logic is pathetic and circular."

And what, or who, do you think is responsible for designing this fantastically intricate, marvelously utilitarian, life-perpetuating and spirit-sustaining system of evolution? Oh, right. It just happened. Accidentally.

Does this reductive world view – one in which you and your fabulous brain are the ultimate power source – really satisfy you? Does not your vaunted REASON urge you to dig deeper?

We are brainwashed
in different religions from childhood. I contend that if "God so loved the world..." (John 3:16) why didn't he save it in the time of the Old Testament instead of destroying it. Why didn't he save Adam and Eve, his first 2 "children"? No, he put a curse on them and all their offspring forever. What kind of "loving" god does this? We are brainwashed with religions to keep us in line - which is probably a good thing.

Evidence?
DA writes:

'When they find the garden of eden, with its flaming sword and angel guards, then you can say that there is archaeological evidence."

Ever heard of allegory, DA? This notion that all Christians (or even most) interpret every word of the Bible literally is pure nonsense. Many of us believe the creation story (including the Garden of Eden) is an allegory, containing timeless truths about Man's place in the world, and his relationship with God... not a "record" of historical events.

How sad it must be to see the world from such a dry, prosaic perspective.

The Heavens Declare the Glory of God
To all the pip squeak creatures of the Creator.

Until you can step out of Creation and explain it from that perspective you are reduced to having accept the explanation of creation from the only Person how can.


Rom. 1:25 describes your heart and affection

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Creation is a wonder, but it is not The Wonder Maker.


Rom. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

MM
You write: "Why didn't he save Adam and Eve, his first 2 "children"? No, he put a curse on them and all their offspring forever."

God did not curse Adam or Eve. He cursed the "ground" for Adam's sake; Adam would have to earn his bread by the sweat of his brow. Eve was told by God that she would experience pain in childbirth and strife in the home (but God did not lay these circumstances on her, they resulted from her and Adam's sin). God cursed the serpent, of course, and in the process prophesied about Jesus' future coming.

As to why God did not jump in and fix everything right away: I suggest you go back and watch "Time Bandits". ("Why does Evil have to exist?" "I don't know. Oh, yes; it's something to do with Free Will")

IF Jesus the Christ
has come in the flesh unblievers are 'deadmen walking'.

IF Jesus the Christ as NOT come in the flesh then believers 'should be pitied more than anyone.'

Zen is universal
Chuck Colson writes: While the mystical religious experiences and moral intuitions he writes about are shared by many religious traditions, there is no comparable evidence for Buddhism’s other claims: Its tenets about reincarnation and the illusory nature of physical existence cannot be substantiated.

Phylo: Though some sects of Buddhism teach reincarnation, True Buddhism does not teach reincarnation. The Buddha himself taught that the self is an illusion, so what is it that would be reincarnated?

And physical existence IS ultimately illusory. Anyone who knows even the basics of atomic physics knows that there is really no such thing as matter. Atoms are almost entirely empty space. And even subatomic particles break down into wave-like patterns of probability. In other words, they aren't solid either.

What David Brooks was pointing out is that we can now measure the religious experience; we can see it using MRIs. And we know what the religious experience is. It's the transcendence of the illusory boundary that we assume defines the physical and mental self. When this boundary is transcended, we are one with universal consciousness. The word religion comes from the Greek religio, which means to yolk back to reality, to truth. This Universal Consciousness is the source of all things. So it could be called God. We are not separate from it. We only think we are.

Zen is about nothing other than learning how to realize this religious experience of transcending our small self and yolking back to Universal Consciousness. And it's why, someday, everyone will be a Buddhist.

Once this is understood, one does not get fooled into asking where consciousness came from. This question is based on the assumption that matter is primary and consciousness somehow arose out of it. No, Consciousness is primary, it is the source of matter. everything in the universe is a manifestation of Universal Consciousness.

Phylo out.

Hey 3wire
It is time for you to get re-wired. Are you
under the impression that your post #1 is in
any way Christian, moral, ethical, spiritual?

If you do, you are quite misguided.

Zen is Universal is impressive nonsense,
If Christ came in the flesh. That 'truth' first must be repudiated before you can assign credibility to the above clever understanding.

If Christ came in the flesh, then the above is deception meant to deceive.

JimP
I hesitate to write this, but I'll assume that you are mature enough to handle anything I have to say without getting too upset. According to Buddhism, everything I say is delusion anyway.

Buddhism teaches that all concepts, anything we can think of, is ultimately illusory. What is Real is what's going on in This Moment prior to snapping the world into conceptual form; prior to having ideas about it.

So everything you can think of––the earth, you, me, Jesus, Buddha, etc.––is ultimately an illusion.

Not that we should ignore the world that is divided up into separate concepts. It's just that we need to realize that ultimately they are illusory, and that underneath it all is Undivided Consciousness. When we transcend all conceptual boundaries, we are inseparable from Jesus, from Buddha, from a frog, from a stone.

When we fully realize this Universal Consciousness, we desire nothing. We desire nothing because there is nothing ELSE. And because there is no desire, there is no suffering.

The main difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism does not dwell in belief or faith. Belief and faith are always based in the conceptual world, so we are putting our faith in what is ultimately illusory. Instead we focus our attention on what is Real (i.e., what's going on in This Moment prior to having ideas about the world.).

For what it's worth, Phylo.

Phylo
I appreceate your reply and the tone of it, honestly.

But my challenge to what you suggest stands. Without insult your view is hostile to the Biblical view.

IF Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh than your philosophy is what is illusionary and further it is deceptive.

If Creation is reality than it is not illusionary. Christ coming the Flesh is the merging of physical real creation with Eternal Spirit and IF His word is truth everything else is lie.

Without rancor to gain credance to alternative 'suggestions' His Word needs to be discredited and shown false. Otherwise the view you present is nothing more than philisophical babel and remains such because only 'The Creator' can describe His creation precisely not the creature.

Respectfully, JimP

Phylo - nice arguments
I am a Christian. However, I've had the opportunity to explore several religions prior to ascertaining my faith. Yours is a unique one, and I must admit... appealing on many levels.

Jesus once said (as God), "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man cometh unto the father (being Creator), except by me." Consider this in a metaphorical, revolutionary sense (much like your own Buddha teachings) and you arrive at the conception that there is one way (THE way), existing in Truth (capital T), and exposed for all (light = purity, not hidden).

The Bible also emphasizes a personal relationship is attainable with your Creator, God. That God is not unreachable or uncaring. He simply doesn't stamp His will on your life.

Melding these two concepts, you can attain contact with what you refer to as "Universal Consciousness" (we say God) by seeking after "the way, the truth, and the light". Ultimately, we all yearn to know about the afterlife, we all yearn for truth, and we all feel "unexplained" remorse for actions outside of purity.

Phylo again
Maybe I am not mature and that is why I am responding more.

But you say, 'according to Buddism even what I say is illusionary.'

The according to Buddsm what is your point.

But you see, Christ never speaks in such convoluted confused nonsense. 'His Word is Truth' is the Biblical claim. You chose to substitue 'illusion' with 'Truth' if in fact His Word is what He says it is. If in fact He is reliable. If He is you've made a poor exchange. Very poor indeed.


PS Phylo
I want to point out also your statement: What is Real is what's going on in This Moment. A very profound thought, to be sure... and I hope I'm not taking it out of context.

However, yours appears to be a preponderance toward what is Real. Ours a preponderance toward what is True. Consider this for a moment.

Taking your statement above... I am curious as to whether there is ever a need for forgiveness? If the event happened in a past moment, is it not Real? I ask in geniune interest. Because pain, mistrust, etc would seem to transfer forward despite the actual event having past long ago.

I would argue that perception, to the person who is perceiving, is very Real in any given moment. And Truth dictates that not all of our perceptions are accurate, as we find in many instances well after-the-fact.

So, abiding in Truth, we would ask for forgiveness for our errors in perception... understanding the impact that these past actions have on present and future relations. It would seem that one could easily justify their position for "What is Real in This Moment" and not seek forgiveness, but rather seek understanding for how they came to think in that moment.

Judging Martians
To make an accurate judgment on the people from Mars, one would have to meet one of them, then assume, all the rest were just like the one you did meet.
If there are no people on Mars, then its impossible to judge any of them, they do no exist.

Yet if I believe there are people on Mars, I can make some sort of judgment about them.
I can create an image in my mind of how I think they look up close.

If none are there, then my judgments of them, is purely imaginations.

The same principle applies to God.
If He is non-existent as some say, then how can they make a judgment about Him?

They have simply made a judgment of their own imaginations of someone who does not even exist, in their own thoughts.
Yet, they give Him space in their own minds by making any judgment about Him.

If there are such things in the universe I call widgets, I can make a logical judgment about what a widget is by how much information I know about widgets.
But to make any judgment about the widget, I must first off, believe they exist.

All the while people who make judgments about God and yet claim there is no God, gives credence to the very idea they say does not exist.

And because there really is a God, He is going to exist in every mans; life if they like it or not.
One way or the other, as Paul said here:

2Co 2:16 -
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Every thought of mankind and the Judgment on all men have been made and thought of before any of us were born.



Mr. Deeds
That is original. 'A perponderance toward what is real versus toward what is True.'

Does Truth defines reality or reality define truth?

But again, Truth will always take precedent since it has always Existed and explains Itself. Creation by itself is not Truth.

Thanks

Illusory or Transitory?
If life is an illusion, as Buddhism teaches, one wonders then if we can trust any of our senses or our thoughts. Is the feeling of hunger a true and present reality? Or is it just a matter of being clued in to "knowing" you're not really hungry, because all is merely illusion?

True enough that in between all the atoms that make up the creation, there's a whole lot of nothin'. It's no less material for all that.

I've never read Kant but understand that he taught a reality higher than what we now know that truly exists. That is precisely the nature of "heaven" or "hell"-they are beyond what we now know and is why this life is considered transitory. Jesus Himself never denied present reality; after all, He took on our flesh and limitations apart from sin but taught that there is another, eternal state and whatever is accumulated in this life will eventually be consumed by either the passage of time or His second Advent. We are to lay up treasures in heaven where neither rust or moth can destroy.

Emerson once said
"Why should we grope among the dry bones of the past, or put the loving generation into masquerade out of its faded wardrobe?
The sun shines today also....There are new lands, new men, new thoughts. Let us demand our own works and laws and worship"

What an amazing power mankind has, simply with his power to choose, to decide what path he takes his own thoughts to follow.

We all have heard the phrase "original thought" and probably believe we have had one at some time or another.
But is this true?
Who has attained such knowledge of every thought ever had by all men?
No man has and no man ever will.

Isaiah asked this question like this:
"Isa 53:1 -
Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Some will say, not me, while others will, but every man believes something about this report.

Both beliefs are faith based.
I accept the report by faith, and another man rejects the report by faith.

Summed up already with this:
Corinthians 1:
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, F3 lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

What is Truth?
Its a very good question, and worthy of any time spend in finding an answer.

Can truth even be defined?
Everyone claims they have truth, yet they have opposite views, contrary to one another.

Every individual on the earth has some truth, personal truths, only they know.
Private matters they keep to themselves, as some experience they have had, only they know about.
Who can judge this person as not having some truth?
No man can logically, he can make any assumption he desires to make though, and choose if he believes the man tells about himself.

Jesus Christ made an astounding claim, as He answered this question posed by Pilate when Jesus was on Trial.

What is truth?
Jesus said "I am the Truth"
Believe my Words, My words will Judge Him and every man born.
Believer and unbeliever, as the Judgments are already made.
To one the promise of life, to another death, depending on every man learning the Truth.
All men have a Promise
The promise of life
OR
The promise of death
And all men are given the power to decide their own judgment. By the power of FAITH, in Jesus Christ, or FAITH against Him.

This is the PURENESS and Righteous Judgment of God.
Judgment is already made for all of us, and you are the one who decides what the end will bring.
All according to your FAITH.


JGP
I agree.

Truth stands alone. It exists apart from any idea or thought that would seek to deny it- and it prevails every time. Creation is merely a reflection of Truth. Simply stated, it points us to the Creator- the embodiment of Truth. In the end, I believe Truth will reveal Reality.

I can't remember the exact passage, but Jesus spoke words to the effect of "many more things I desire to show you, but you are not ready yet". Our understanding is limited, so we are challenged with but a few tasks - seek God and help others seek God, and love one another.


Truth must be revealed
or it would never be known.

If man could go outside Creation he might apprehend truth. But man is subject to a creaturely demension and perspective, he being a product of a Creator. For him to go outside creation would be like the weather knowing orignal condition. He can't know unless someone who was there tells him.

Religion-optional humanity
Colson writes: "It corroborates the biblical idea that we are, to use a modern phrase, 'hard-wired' for spirituality and God. It suggests that we are irresistibly religious, as philosophers have always argued."

Philosphers have also often argued that humanity's shepherds can dispense with the religion that their sheep allegedly need to keep them in line.

We also have empirical evidence that humans seem less "irresistibly" religious than philosophers thought. In recent decades we've seen the spontaneous and unplanned implosion of religious belief in much of Western Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada -- countries American christians all readily visit on vacation because they have good reputations. We also have some indirect evidence through demographic trends (a drop in birthrates) for the loss of religious belief in some Islamic countries like Iran.

Face it: Children learn about the gods in their culture in the same way the recent crops of kids have learned about Harry Potter. (I grew up in the BH [Before Hogwarts] era, so I guess that makes me a secular muggleist.) Uncounted billions of human lives came and went before anyone heard about Jesus, yet they lived "successfully" to the extent that they left us as descendants. Barring some kind of catastrophe, after the extinction of christianity in a few more centuries, billions more human lives will come and go without knowing about Jesus other than perhaps as a mythological figure from the remote past like Zeus.

I have a truth
Everyone has a truth
But its just personal truth.
There are personal truths, and universal truth.
Local truth and national truth.
Only Jesus Christ is THEE Truth

So who is your god?

Is there any truth in existence, in your world beliefs, outside of yourself?
People can and do worship their own thoughts, as if they are the only truth that exists.
----


advancedatheist- 12:24 PM EST
Subject: Religion-optional humanity

Face it: Children learn about the gods in their culture in the same way the recent crops of kids have learned about Harry Potter.
-----
ts:
This is true
People are known by the gods.
Their culture was established by the principles they imputed to their gods.
The Egyptians worshiped different gods than the Babylonians, or the Hebrews, who worshiped God.
The only culture still alive today from that period.
Explain that.
Without that culture having a lasting Foundation from its source, the faith in God.
The Creator, the Lawgiver, the Judge





Talent's Truth
"I have a truth
Everyone has a truth
But its just personal truth.
There are personal truths, and universal truth.
Local truth and national truth.
Only Jesus Christ is THEE Truth"

Which is your personal belief, and not truth. Belief cannot establish truth.

Harry Potter, a god
advancedatheist writes:

Face it: Children learn about the gods in their culture in the same way the recent crops of kids have learned about Harry Potter
-------
Absolutely
If one wants to be like Harry Potter, Harry is the same thing as a god to them.
They have imputed to Harry as holding the attributes they desire in their own life.
And wanting to be just like Harry, even if its only an imaginary world, dreamed up in the privacy of their own minds.

This is exactly the same thing all people have done, now or in the past, creating their own gods.

To seek after fame is seeking a promise the person desires, to be known.Imputing a power into their own hearts and minds to the idea of fame and all it brings with it.

Fame is a god
Love is a god
Knowledge is a god
Anything can become a god in a persons life, including money, sex, even football.

To really grasp the truth of this, go study what attributes defined the ancient gods of the old world.
Diana of the Euphesians for instance, a goddess of love and lust.
A sexual god
The obelisk of Egypt, a phallic symbol.
A fish, a rabbit, a snake, a lion, all worshipped for its attributes.
No different than today as its all still here with different names.
NOTHING is new under the sun.
Just definitions change to identify the same desires that originate in every heart and mind.

You also have a god, and if I knew you on a personal level, I would know who your god is.
By your own desires and pursuits in life.

The Lord, he is my God



Take lonestarblues
His god is the god of questions.
He worships questions and the ability to question everything.
He sees himself as wise because he can ask some question, and he questions everything with just one more question.
For him, its sacreligious to find an answer for anything.

To be able to ask a question gives him a sense of intelligence, and a smugness of mind he has some power of being smarter than everyone else, the ability to question everything gives him.

His god is one of no answers, and there is nothing to answer for, just question everything.
A question is as holy to him as allah is to a muslim, and just a sacred.

First causes…

‘…when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law…[they] show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…’ [Romans 2:14-15]

The remnants of the Law of God are still within the heart of men even though he is fallen from his created state and under the corruption of sin that leads him in rebellion against his Creator.

Our conscience bearing witness to the Law is part of what it means that man is an image bearer of the living God as revealed in Jesus Christ.

The image is marred as evident by many of the comments, but not beyond redemption as evident by the work of Christ bringing men to Himself.

The personal nature of man separates him and distinguishes him from all other life. The impersonal to the personal is as huge a barrier as the non-living to the living. The naturalist has no idea of the origin of life, nor any idea of the origin of the personal.

We call their theory nonsense because many believe that life originates from non-life or that the personal originates from impersonal matter or energy. Be not deceived, the first cause of life must be living as the first cause of the personal must be personal.

Who knows allah?
No one does
He does exist though
You can say no all you want to, but he in fact does exist if only in the hearts and minds a billion people.

One man has defined who allah is, that man is mohammed.

allah is said to have certain attributes that separates him from all other gods.
This is what mohammed taught and is accepted by millions of people.
mohammed told the ancient arabs their other 359 gods were not the ones to worship as god, but allah alone.

He exists, yet he does not exist.
How can that be?
In the western civilization, allah does not exist at all.
Jesus does, the Father of Jesus does.

mohammed is the only man who ever lived who knew these attributes, according to mohammed anyway.

Because the God of Abraham is not the same god mohammed believed in.

Take the god Zeus.
We say he never existed.
Yet if he did not exist, how did he have so much influence on those ancient people who believe he did?

He is the beast described here in Revelation


Re 17:8 -
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Re 17:11 -
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

Satan has taken on many names and forms through out the history of mankind.
Today he has many images people worship and are ignorant of his power over their lives.
He influences their lives exactly like the god Zeus once did the ancient people

Mr. Deeds
Mr. Deeds: ...yours appears to be a preponderance toward what is Real. Ours a preponderance toward what is True.

Phylo: Actually Truth and Reality are the same thing. What is Real is True, what is True is Real.

In Buddhism, we talk about two truths: relative truths, which are truths that can be spoken or written; and Absolute Truth, which is what's going on in This Moment prior to conceptualizing it and so it cannot be spoken of. It can only be directly Perceived.

Mr. Deeds: I am curious as to whether there is ever a need for forgiveness? If the event happened in a past moment, is it not Real? I ask in geniune interest. Because pain, mistrust, etc would seem to transfer forward despite the actual event having past long ago.

Phylo: Forgiveness comes quite naturally in Buddhism because everything is fresh and new in This Moment. This doesn't mean that we ignore the past. If someone cheated you, you would be wise to remember that. In other words, we don't ignore relative truths. But when we are living fully in This Moment, thoughts about what happened in the past don't dominate our present experience. This way, if we see that the person is genuinely sorry and contrite we aren't so overwhelmed by our thoughts of their past deeds that we can't forgive them. Buddhism isn't about ignoring our ideas; it's about not being caught, or trapped by them. The Truth shall, indeed, set you free.

to be continued

The True God is known for His
Laws
His Judgments
His Salvation
And ONLY by His Definition of Himself, revealed to all men.
No man can define God, and if he could, he would be god himself.
And this illusion is what many do believe in today.
They are the lords of their own lives.

And there is no other power in the earth or in the universe outside of their own self importance.
This is the arrogance of mankind that God has condemned.

Every man alive, or ever born, is here as a flash in the pan of time.

Like a blade of grass, that springs up and grows green, then dies and is forgotten.
Out of sight, out of mind.
God has made known to all men His attributes beginning with the Creation.
From that time to this He has revealed some part of His Attributes.

Man is made in His Image.
All the attributes we hold, came from God.
We can love and we can hate.
We can create and we can plan.
This is our God given nature and is the very image of the real power in the Universe.
The Law Giver
The Judge
The one who alone LOVES every man, but will judge each and everyone of us according to our deeds.

Just as a parent loves his/her children, but gives them rules with love and nurture.
Plans for their future for them.
God has a plan for all men, and His Will if for each of us to live and communicate with Him as ONE.
Just as Jesus Christ taught.
Joh 17:11 -
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:21 -
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

God in you, the HOPE of Glory.
The great mystery of the Universe ah been revealed by Jesus Christ.
God became a man
Man becomes a God bing made ONE with God.

This is God's plan, if you miss it, you will miss it all, everything life is created for.

Lonestar
Hey there.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me".

No other religious figure has made that claim.

Like my math prof said: "There are only two things in this life that are perfect. One is the Son of God, the other is math". If there were no objective definition of truth, how could we possibly have math, let alone Jesus?


Mr Deeds continued
Mr. Deeds: I would argue that perception, to the person who is perceiving, is very Real in any given moment.

Phylo: In Buddhism, we make a distinction between Perception and conception. Perception is the direct seeing of what's taking place, it's the direct experience of reality. conception is the mental packing of reality.

Mr. Deeds: And Truth dictates that not all of our perceptions are accurate, as we find in many instances well after-the-fact.

Phylo: Actually, we can't be mistaken about our direct Perception. It's only in the story telling that we start to make mistakes.

Thanks for your questions. Very interesting. I have to run, but I'll try to check back later.


By the way, if you're curious the best book on Buddhism is called Buddhism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen. That book really helped to sort out my thinking about this stuff.

Also, Buddhism doesn't necessarily conflict with Christianity. There are so many parallels between what Jesus said and what Buddhism teaches that I can't help but believe that Jesus and Buddha were basically teaching the same message. IMHO.

Zeus
And yet by saying that Zeus did not exist, you lend credence to any claim that he did, per your post #25.

This could almost make an episode of South Park.

Every knee WILL bow and
every tongue WILL Confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God, if God's Word is Truth.

At that time , if God's Word is Truth, all arguements, debates, discussios, and all baloney will cease.

At that time ever person will be made to acknowledge that Truth. Amazingly it will be willing because heaven and earth will have passed away and they will made to see the Truth without support from anything except Himself.


The Fact of the Incarnation
and the Ressurrection are the two defining events in history and in the lives of individual men.

This fact determines their philosophy and understanding of the world and their won personal lives.

That fact can't will not be ignored. If it is true unbleivers are 'deadmen walking', if false, beleivers are the most pitied of men.

Zeus
$ writes:- 3:34 PM EST
Zeus
And yet by saying that Zeus did not exist, you lend credence to any claim that he did, per your post #25.

This could almost make an episode of South Park.
----
So could you and your family.
Nothing is sacred in South Park, including you.

Zeus, the youngest son of Cronus and Rhea, he was the supreme ruler of Mount Olympus and of the Pantheon of gods who resided there.

Being the supreme ruler he upheld law, justice and morals, and this made him the spiritual leader of both gods and men. Zeus was a celestial god, and originally worshiped as a weather god by the Greek tribes.

The ideas attributed to Zeus are still here, Zeus is not.
He did exist,now dead, and is gone the way of all false gods, yet new ones are created with new names today is all built in the same categories of law, justice and morals.


"law, justice and morals"

The God of Moses is still here and His Laws, Justice and Morals have never changed.

Fact is, you are about as swift as South Park

Zeus revisited
So Zeus existed? Neato!

Unicorns too? Narnia? Hobbits?

I once was told a proverb--
A proverb I once heard, it could possibly been from the time of Ghengis Khan, or farther back in time: "A man about to speak the truth should keep one foot in the stirrup" or in today's world, "one foot firmly on the accelerator". My guess is that this proverb is geared to whatever situation a person who is about to tell the truth, is in.

I suppose that the truth will set you free, one way or another????

Surface scans
$ - 5:25 PM EST
Zeus revisited

-------
Cannot answer your questions, if they are asked in sincerity.
You may be in a mocking attitude, in which case its a waste of time talking about ancient gods and how influential they really were to the people who believed in them.

People gave their gods this power over them, as they did not know who God was, just knew they had not created themselves of the world.
And just needed some understanding for a common purpose of law, morals and justice.

So they took their own beliefs and imputed it to a god, and then worshiped the work of their own hands.
No different than men today, just do not call their inventions they worship a god.
It has new names today.

The keen ability to over look the obvious today is exceptional.

"The heavens declare the Glory of God"

And not all men know who He is, yet today, and worship some part of this creation over the Creator.


Romans 1:


22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The sheer delusional...
quality of some posts here is creepy. The question was what does neuroscience tell us about our minds and how does it effect the christian worldview. Instead of really discussing the question, some posters prefer to post random bible quotes.

What has neuroscience shown?

-the brain is responsible for consciousness, as well as emotion and motor function.

-the brain consists of neurons that interact with each other based on input from the environment

-neurons function electrochemically to transmit or repress signals

-damage to any part of the brain results in deficits whose manifestations depend only on the area and extent of the damage

-memories and personality are based upon the physical brain and will be erased or altered by brain injury

The sheer stupidity is
From the dummy who did not even read the title of the thread


Neuroscience and God

Hey DA
You can limit yourself to the subject of brain cells, and is a good thing for you to think about.
But God is included in this thread, and if you do not like it, get lost.

Hmmph!
I am not sure why the author or Brooks thinks these studies will change anything, because the neuroscientists are Marxists and they will never give up their belief that materials condition the mind. To do that, they try incessantly to invalidate the existence of free will, and they will simply reinterpret any data to which they are exposed to trumpet the notion of determinism.

(But the existence of free will is axiomatic. The denial of free will is self-contradictory. If you said humans don't have free will, then you have to admit that something other than an independent decision to seek the truth and validate it made you say that. At best, something made you go through the motions of a thought process, but you have no independent mechanism to validate what you say. But if there is free will, you don't have that problem).

The Marxists scatter like lab rats at an opportunity to distinguish between the brain and the mind. Their modus operandi is to treat them as interchangeable concepts. They will argue that because a constant physical mechanism for moral decision-making can be found, we are only composites of biochemicals responding to stimuli.

But a brain is a thing of a certain nature. When a decision is made - because the human mind makes a choice out of free will - it must show some physical manifestation through specific physical parts of the brain whose function is to support decision-making. It cannot be any other way.

...and about animals
Incidentally, animals do not possess the ability to reason. They cannot form explicit concepts. Can't do it, can't be done, doesn't exist. Liberals HATE to hear this. There is no evidence, never has been, and any argument to the contrary is simply reinterpreting data to fit their agenda. Their favorite trick is to use complex actions as "proof" that animals are "intelligent" or "reason." Animals act on instinct, by imitation, or by conditioning, but not by reason. They cannot reason. They can't grasp concepts. Doesn't happen.

advanced? atheist
Not sure what sort of meaning you are trying to imply with your name. What are you advancing toward?
Anyway, in your post you say "give it just a few more centuries and Christianity will be extinct"? That's pretty funny, considering the world has been trying to stomp it out for over 2000 years. And no one has come any closer to succeeding than they were when they crucified it's progenitor.

Christianity is always one generation from dying out. Why would it take you centuries? What's holding you back? If you're so advanced, have at it.

How long was Zeus around? Jesus split history in two, Can zeus do that?

Peoples before Jesus knew about Jesus. They just didn't know who he was. They were expecting a redeemer. The put their faith in a coming redeemer. Their faith was rewarded. Jesus didn't just drop on the scene unexpected like. He announced his coming and people believed.



source of morality
all morality has its source in mans brain, but not anywhere near what you believe it is. we create our morality. study cultural athhropology and you will find every kind of behaviour is considerd moral somewher in the world at a given time. what you believe is god sent is not even considered by some body somewhere in the world. are they immoral?? where i really find it is in this discussion over same sex marriage and what hear very often is that same sex marriage has never existed anywhere in the world at any time. therefore it is part of the reason we call it iommoral.. wrong or i wouldnt mention t. there are tribes
in western Arica where women marry each other and they consider themselves husband and wife equally, duties to be shared by each. they have sexual rrelations with each othe but they have establised a system of signals which let the men know that they are available for sexual relations whenever they feel like it. children are conceived and belong to the married couple. men accept their role as provider for the village not the individual and bwcome more an uuncle to the married couple. all of this is according to the tribs ordained by their god. its nonmsense to believe that just as it is nonsense to believe that god has establisehed linits for our marriage which are set and niot flexible. we can make of marriage what we will as long as it still satisfies the needs of society. if we wish marriage to be structured in a certain way and that way is found not to meet societies needs in other ares the we will either change marriage or change the needs. this is o elemental its a shame that i have to waste computer space on it. learn.

Amazing
The thing that amazes me most about guys like Colson (an aggressive, political phony turned aggressive, religious phony) is that they haven't the slightest idea how ridiculous they're going to look in a generation. Imagine anyone trying to get away with a statement like "It is not only the Bible’s moral and anthropological claims that are being proven: Archeology is increasingly proving Scripture’s historical claims, as well".

Read Victor J. Stenger, "God, The Failed Hypothesis" for a few facts about the Bible and archeology.

ts
---You can limit yourself to the subject of brain cells, and is a good thing for you to think about.
But God is included in this thread, and if you do not like it, get lost.---

You are, like usual, engaging in fallacious thinking. Your false dichotomy is typical, it may say god in the title but the body is only about christianity.

It is not what neuroscience tells us about the nature of a god/gods butwhat it tells us about ourself that is important.

It eliminates several dangling carrots that christianity uses to coerce people into joining. These are the afterlife and the soul. There is no evidence of either. It also eliminates the christian excuse for evil, freewill.

garryg
"is that they haven't the slightest idea how ridiculous they're going to look in a generation."

Right. I imagine you have no idea how ridiculous you'll sound when you stand before God, and tell him, he's not real, just a failed hypothesis. And he will say, "depart from me, I never knew you."

Good luck with that.

talent's nonsense
"His god is the god of questions....His god is one of no answers..."

Why do you have to tell lies? I asked you no question, commented your truth is merely your opinion.

And self-contradictory ones at that? First my god is question, then its answer.

Is your faith so weak? Your truth so false?

AliveInHim
"Hey there."

Hiya!

"Jesus said 'I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me'." No other religious figure has made that claim."

Just about every religious figure has.

"Like my math prof said: "There are only two things in this life that are perfect. One is the Son of God, the other is math". If there were no objective definition of truth, how could we possibly have math, let alone Jesus?"

I accept truth is objective, so are moral laws. Faith, however, cannot establish that.

lsb says to alive,
Alive: "Jesus said 'I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me'." No other religious figure has made that claim."

Jlsb: "just about every religious figure has."

No. The other religous leaders say "follow me and i will LEAD you to truth." "Do these 10 things and you will find truth." or "give me all your money to know peace."

But no one says IAM the truth. IAM the way. All the other religious leaders take the claims of Jesus Christ and twist them and corrupt them. So they sound similar, or very close to the same, but the subtle differences lead to destruction.

Truth is objective. There is only one truth.

Lonestar
you contribute nothing but doubt. Casting doubt and promulgating doubt is a shtick you've found a refuge in.

Scout is not too far off. There is no discussion of 'truth' with you because you personally doubt all 'truth' on the basis there is no 'objective evidence' to be had in its discussion.

Doubt is a idol for you. An idol you raise up to discredit faith in evidence of any 'truth' that can be known.

For you to say truth is objective is for you to say nothing. Because 'turth' for you is extremely limited if it exist at all.



Jimp
Well said.


Lonestar,
You labor hard to discredit faith when doubt is what should be discredited, when there is evidence of reliable witnesses of 'truth.'

But because you love doubt and 'objective evidence' (which is wisp of air of an argument) more than 'truth' you can raise the false objection of the lack of 'objective evidence' to cast doubt on one having the knowledge of 'truth.'

The position you argue for is absurd and an untenable way to live every day. More of life is built on faith than 'objective evidence.'

verbivore
Alive: "Jesus said 'I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me'." No other religious figure has made that claim."

me: "just about every religious figure has."

you: "No. The other religous leaders say 'follow me and i will LEAD you to truth.' 'Do these 10 things and you will find truth.' or 'give me all your money to know peace.'"

Ah, so the point is what specific sounds were possibly uttered. Isn't that sort of trivial? Don't words mean things?

"Truth is objective. There is only one truth."

Objective does not imply one.

Faith in the Bible vs. Faith in God
As much as I respect Chuck Colson for his faith and his prison ministry, I sometimes wonder if he and like-minded believers have confused faith in the Bible with faith in God. Any objective observer must conclude that the Bible has flaws, notwithstanding the validity of its claim as the foundation for religious faith (even the Koran leans heavily on the Bible for its own assertions).

Moreover, I think it is wrong to insist that moral conviction is innate spirituality, as opposed to learned and originating from material processes of brain. Most people think that spirituality has no physical basis. Is it not plausible that spirituality does have a material basis, just not one we understand. Think of "dark matter" and "dark energy," for which physicists have good evidence, yet there is no way to explain either in terms of our current limited knowledge of material existence. Can we call dark matter and dark energy spiritual?

Until somebody can explain spirituality, I think we should have a more open mind about what it means.

JimP
"you contribute nothing but doubt."

Would you care to point out where I do that? Don't make empty claims.

"Scout is not too far off. There is no discussion of 'truth' with you because you personally doubt all 'truth' on the basis there is no 'objective evidence' to be had in its discussion."

Where do you come up with this nonsense? I said, quite plainly, "I accept truth is objective, so are moral laws."

"Doubt is a idol for you. An idol you raise up to discredit faith in evidence of any 'truth' that can be known."

More nonsense. Do you just make it up?

"For you to say truth is objective is for you to say nothing. Because 'turth' for you is extremely limited if it exist at all."

So you not only put words in my mouth but thoughts in my head? Do you consider that intellectually honest?

"You labor hard to discredit faith"

Again, where do I discredit faith? I tell the truth about faith, the objective truth, it cannot establish truth.

"when doubt is what should be discredited"

Doubt doubt? Seems to me you're the one contributing nothing but doubt--since you other nonsense contributes nothing.

"when there is evidence of reliable witnesses of 'truth.'"

Are you referring to the evidence of neuroscience?

"But because you love doubt and 'objective evidence'"

Only evidence of that is your words, you speaking of doubt and you speaking of evidence.

"The position you argue for is absurd and an untenable way to live every day."

Oh, and what position is that? Make up something real good now.

Lonestar,
I try to be careful in our arguements, maybe not careful enough. If I over step I will be corrected.

For you Truth can only be established by Objective evidence. To live that way is absurd. This subjects the validity of Truth soley on the basis of 'objective evidence.'
Is that not your philosophy of life? If I err point it out.

We have already agreed that faith can not establish 'truth' but faith in what is True is valid as long the 'truth' is valid.

You premise that 'truth' can be valid only by 'objective evidence.'????

Let's get to the brass tacks. What 'truth' do you believe? Obviously, God is unknowable.
True?

JGP
"I try to be careful in our arguements, maybe not careful enough. If I over step I will be corrected."

No problem, I don't bite.

"For you Truth can only be established by Objective evidence."

No, I didn't say that and don't argue it.

In truth, evidence can never prove something, merely corroborate it to a degree of confidence, or falsify it. People used to use white swans as an example of a syllogism: All swans are white, that is a swan, therefore it is white. But then black swans where discovered, in Australia, I think. My truck has started every time for 10 years, don't mean it will tomorrow. So, no, evidence is not proof, only corroboration, to a degree of confidence. In a way like faith, it can give you a great deal of hope, to a degree of confidence.

So, yes, to live life that way is in a sense, to a degree, absurd.

...

JGP, 2
But it is possible establish truth by reason using logic. Examples are mathematical proofs, Mises argument for free markets and against socialism, Declaration's self-evident truths. Argument by right reason is objective.

"Is that not your philosophy of life? If I err point it out."

I believe I have.

"We have already agreed that faith can not establish 'truth' but faith in what is True is valid as long the 'truth' is valid."

Faith in what might be true is true if and only if that is true. So, yes, I agree, faith might be true. That hypothetical cannot be denied. And that is why I do not argue against faith, and have no problem with faith, per se, only those who try to unshackle faith from its hope, thereby losing faith. For it, that hypothetical, cannot be proven one way or the other. And if that truth we proven and known, there would be no need for faith.

"You premise that 'truth' can be valid only by 'objective evidence.'????"

Again, no, I do not. Evidence has its place, its value, but it cannot prove truth.

"What 'truth' do you believe? Obviously, God is unknowable. True?"

True.

(Are you, JGP, also JimP? Just for clarification.)

Lonestar,
So we can say, for Lonestar, a 'Truth' is 'God is unknowable;'. Is this a truth you have faith in. Did you come to that conclusion on your own or do you take it on the authority of another?




JGP and JimP
the same, sorry

JGP
"So we can say, for Lonestar, a 'Truth' is 'God is unknowable;'. Is this a truth you have faith in. Did you come to that conclusion on your own or do you take it on the authority of another?"

No, not for me, not from me, truth is not relative to anyone or anything, to argue it is subjective is to argue a contradiction.

Truth is that which can be reasoned rightly, by anyone. What we establish as true by reasoning we call knowledge, what we know, which can be used to establish other truths.

God, however, cannot be reasoned, cannot be proven, one way or the other, for reasoning requires definition, analysis, classification, all of which would limit God, and He by definition cannot be. No, He is a matter of faith, what we believe, whether we believe He exists (in your case) or we believe He does not (in the case of anti-theists)--or what we do not believe (in my case). But faith cannot establish truth, so what we believe cannot be what we know. We cannot know God, we can only believe God, or not. You can say you know God by faith, but it is used in a metaphorical sense.

Perhaps the logic of that argument is flawed, perhaps you see a hole in it, then, please, point it out. But it is not my truth, it is truth because that is what the words, and concepts, faith and reason, mean, denote, signify. It is truth because reason leads us to it, no evidence needed, apodeictically.

And note, please, that I am not elevating reason above faith. Reason is just a tool, and it has its limitations, mainly because man is flawed and corrupt and cannot reason perfectly.

"the same, sorry "

No problem, just making sure.

So, for Lonestar,
unless it an be reasoned, with definition, analysis, classification, than 'truth' cannot be established.

The bottom line is, according to you, nothing God could do or say can convince you He exists let alone He is God, forget about knowing Him. Walking on water, raising the dead, or on and on. Nothing is convincing. So according to that premises you can never know God for the very reason nothing He could do would convice He is God to know Him, Let alone convince you He, God, even exists. Even if He tried, according to you it is doomed for failure. Even if He favored you with a favor gratitude would never get to Him from you for You could never know That He is to offer thanks.

No. I disagree that definition, analyis, classification exludes other ways to know truth (even they have problems to do that). Truth more times than not if not always is established by the Authority giving it. If that authority proves credible, reliable and consitent than doubt is diliberatly unreasonable, while faith is what is reasonable.

I think maybe you do elevate reason above faith. You exclude it as being reasonable. And is for this 'reason' it has to exclude you from knowing God. 'He who comes to God, MUST believe He is, and He is a rewarder or those who dilengently seek Him' and 'without faith It is impossible to please Him.' Makes sense according to some of your own 'reasoning.' To God faith is what He values. Men value other things.

More on the topic,
You have relegated God to a topic like math or Science and want to make Him into a well reasoned theorem. This is a grievous error. You have denigrate the Creator of all things included you to a dead premise or postulate.

If He was a corpse for you to study you would not believe He is who He is becasue He would be dead and if He is alive you would have no stomach to study Him because He won't play by your reasoning rules.

He can't do anything to satisfy you. The town people of Christ challenged Him, 'Physician heal thyself' a commentary of the people of His youth was, 'and there He did not do many miricles there because of their unbelief' and it says, "He was AMAZED at their unbelief,' because it was so unreasoning. And finally dragging Him out of the city to throw Him off a cliff. That is where unbelief leads a person in how they will respond to God.

I know this is a secular world
and you have a lot of company that revels in their unbelief and rejection of God.


That may be a comfortable thought but it is very temporary. The 'Day of the Lord' is fast approaching and it is hastening toward its appointment. The comfort of a God rejecting, unreasoning unbelieving, world will be pulled out from under you like a rug and make your head spin. Underneath will be nothing to support you.

He is good, kind and knowable. To deny Him is to deny you own salvation.

The Great Attractor (1 of 2)
I’ll probably state this badly, but I’m going to give it a try. My husband was discussing with me his latest fascination with what I believe are called “super clusters.” A current fascination among astronomers. Our galaxy is part of a group of galaxies (to date known to be comprised of about 30). These galaxies move together, in a vast super spiral. All galaxies are being pulled toward “the great attractor.”

No one knows what the Great Attractor is exactly. It can’t be measured, seen, heard, or felt. But it exists. They know it exists. They see the effects of it. And the effects are massive. In what can best be described as a “structure,” the Great Attractor is a massive gravitational force pulling everything toward it. A part of the unknown “dark matter,” which is pervasive throughout the universe.

Scientist refer to dark matter now as a sort of structure that holds the universe together.( we spin so fast that by rights the universe should be flying out in all directions like water in a swinging bucket.) Likewise the Great Attractor---it exerts massive force on the universe.

It is described as a “wall,” billions and billions of miles across. But what my husband observed is that while the effects are observed, it cannot be measured according to any conventional instrumentation. No telescopes, no x-rays, no microwaves, no gamma rays, no electromagnetic light. Nothing. But it’s there.

Likely there will never be an instrument that can actually measure it any observable way. Science likes to stick to the 5 senses. But in the case of the GA, they need to break out of the box, turn convention on its ear, and consider that there is more to be known that merely what can stand against and be measured with their instruments.

The Great Attractor (2 of 2)
Likewise God. He cannot be measured with your telescope, or heard with a stethoscope, or dissected with a microscope. But, like the GA, he is observable. The effects, the handiwork, and the fingerprint of God can be observed. The force of God is seen. But you can’t see it if you insist on staying in a box of your own making. “We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.” (1John 1:3)

Darwin drew his conclusions(!)from watching birds on an obscure island. Since that time, the discoveries in science are staggering. From the discovery of billions of galaxies, the spectrum of light, quantum theory, and on and on. Yet in spite of these discoveries that defy the logic of his conclusions, some scientists prefer to cling to the mathematical limitations of random mutations.

The box of accepted wisdom is moldy and crumpled. It’s breaking down. The more scientists discover the less plausible the rantings of an old man on a lonely island become.

Verbivore
You're right. You stated it badly. Yes there are things we don't understand. No that is not a cue for you to wedge gods of the gaps into those holes. What is the point of considering thngs that cannot be detected by humans? Show us your god and we will all be amazed.

Otherwise stop blaspheming against the great Flying Spaghetti Monster (bless his noodly appendage) for it is his handiwork you admire. All the evidence says so. Well it says so as much as it supports your god conjecture.

As for Darwin, I don't think you have the first clue about the revolution he started in our understanding of biology and how brilliantly he did it. You obviously don't understand the theory of natural selection and you don't understand the fact that the only people who reject Darwin are those whose religious ideology demands it. Amongst the world's professional scientists about 4% don't accept evolution by natural selection, and almost to a person they are fundamentalist religious believers.

Stuart



JimP
(Your reply to lonestarblues):
>The bottom line is, according to you, nothing God could do or say can convince you He exists let alone He is God, forget about knowing Him. Walking on water, raising the dead, or on and on. Nothing is convincing. <

How could you be convinced that someone walked on the surface of water? That’s just ridiculous, and christianity is the only contemporary belief system that requires its adherents to cling to the absurd. Why does Paul not mention Jesus’ alleged miracles? They didn’t happen, that’s why. Did Jesus even exist? The evidence for him wouldn’t stand up in court today.

>I think maybe you do elevate reason above faith. You exclude it as being reasonable. And is for this 'reason' it has to exclude you from knowing God. 'He who comes to God, MUST believe He is, and He is a rewarder or those who dilengently seek Him' and 'without faith It is impossible to please Him.' Makes sense according to some of your own 'reasoning.' To God faith is what He values. Men value other things. <

Faith is belief without reason. It is not something to be admired, it is gullibility in its purest form.

>You have relegated God to a topic like math or Science and want to make Him into a well reasoned theorem. This is a grievous error. You have denigrate the Creator of all things included you to a dead premise or postulate.

If there is a creator as you describe then there should be a clear and obvious trail of evidence that leads back to this ‘truth’ from every angle. Where is even one piece of such evidence? God is a hypothesis you put up (with no evidence) to explain your surroundings. Either it is science and maths or it is not. Don’t claim that god is the explanation and then claim god cannot be described as the explanation.

Stuart

JimP
>I know this is a secular world and you have a lot of company that revels in their unbelief and rejection of God.<

Revels in discovering the truth wherever it lies, no matter what the answer. Not in knowing the answer first because it is written in a book. Start with no explanation, make some hypotheses and test them. The Judeo-christian god fails every such test.

>That may be a comfortable thought but it is very temporary. The 'Day of the Lord' is fast approaching and it is hastening toward its appointment. The comfort of a God rejecting, unreasoning unbelieving, world will be pulled out from under you like a rug and make your head spin. Underneath will be nothing to support you.<

And how many times has this miraculous threat been brandished by the self-righteous and then failed to materialise? It has been a long ‘millennium’ for a messiah who promised he would ‘come quickly’. This prophecy is hot air, like all the others in the bible. you need science for real prophecy: astronomers can predict eclipses to the nearest minute years in advance. That's real prophecy.

>He is good, kind and knowable. To deny Him is to deny you own salvation. <

‘He’ supposedly murdered between 2,300,000 and 32,000,000 humans and should be tried for genocide. I don’t want or need ‘salvation’, and especially not from that despicable fictional character.

Stuart

Stewing and stirring
Stew. Seems to me I got it right. I explained something interesting about dark matter. I explored the wonder of the scope, size, and effects of it. In the sense that it is immeasurable, I used this as an illustration of the way God is known not in what you can measure with a telescope, but in the immeasurable ways he condescends to puny man. Sorry, don’t put words in my mouth. I wedged nothing.

Perhaps you don’t understand the concept of an illustration. Let me spell it out a little more clearly. What I said is this: That just as there are in fact elements of the universe that cannot be measured by human instruments, so too, God cannot be measured with telescopes and microscopes.

“What is the point of measuring things that cannot be detected by humans?” Are you seriously asking this question???? Not everything that can be known can be measured and sifted and reduced to your puny level of understanding. To presume you finite understanding on the massive scale of the universe is the height of arrogance.

I understand enough of Darwin to know it is ludicrous to cling to his flower petals and bird beaks when the universe of his time was scarcely known. It is a lie for you to say that only religious ideologs reject Darwin. Real scientists, who honestly examine the evidence, rejected him a long time. They don’t all believe in God, but they know Darwins ideas are obsolete. I stand in good company.

You say to JimP, “If there is a creator as you describe then there should be a clear and obvious trail of evidence that leads back to this ‘truth’ from every angle.” There is an obvious trail. It is clear. Even if Jesus had lived in your lifetime, you would have found other reasons to reject him.

How's that stew coming?

JimP/JGP
"So, for Lonestar, unless it an be reasoned, with definition, analysis, classification, than 'truth' cannot be established."

Wrong again. This is true for anyone. It is part and parcel the nature of being human. It's surprising to me that you who believes God created man would reject the most essential part of man, his ability to reason. It's also self-contradictory to use reason to argue against reason.

"The bottom line is, according to you, nothing God could do or say can convince you He exists let alone He is God, forget about knowing Him."

No, not according to me. You're apparently so bent on insisting it's just me, you miss the point. The fact is it's also according to you. If you knew God, you could tell everybody all about Him. Yet post after post after post you talk around in circles about knowing God but never tell us anything about Him.

"So according to that premises you can never know God for the very reason nothing He could do would convice He is God to know Him, Let alone convince you He, God, even exists."

You've circled back to your evidence argument which we've agreed is absurd. Why are you aguing it then?

"No. I disagree that definition, analyis, classification exludes other ways to know truth (even they have problems to do that)."

Reason does not exclude, those types of reasoning do not exclude.

"Truth more times than not if not always is established by the Authority giving it."

Let's assume that is true. Still, the authority, the expert must use reason to understand the truth and to express it in words that you or I can use reason to understand for ourselves. So whether you use reason on your own to discover truth or to understand some authority, you still depend on reason.

JimP/JGP, 2
"If that authority proves credible, reliable and consitent than doubt is diliberatly unreasonable"

Again, you're arguing the evidence argument again. An argument you rejected as absurd.

"faith is what is reasonable."

So bottom line what counts, by your own admission here, is what's reasonable.

Now, if you would, explain how faith is reason, for that is what you just claimed.

"I think maybe you do elevate reason above faith. You exclude it as being reasonable."

Reason is excluded for being reasonable? You've lost me.

"Makes sense according to some of your own 'reasoning.'"

Not at all.

"To God faith is what He values."

How do you know this? Really, tell us, don't just vacantly claim it. Substantiate your claim.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"You have relegated God to a topic like math or Science and want to make Him into a well reasoned theorem."

Absolutely not. I do not know God. My argument is He is beyond reason and can't be known. Now you are telling me my argument is the opposite of what I said. Who exactly are you arguing with, me, or yourself?

"You have relegated God to a topic like math or Science and want to make Him into a well reasoned theorem. This is a grievous error. You have denigrate the Creator of all things included you to a dead premise or postulate."

No, I have not. In fact I warned against trying to do just that. I explained that if you claim to know God, then you are defining Him, and who is man to define God? It's blasphemy, or would be, if you tried.

JimP/JGP, 3
"If He was a corpse for you to study you would not believe He is who He is becasue He would be dead and if He is alive you would have no stomach to study Him because He won't play by your reasoning rules."

These are your ideas and words. I did not, and do not think or speak them. Why do you feel it necessary to make things up about me?

"I know this is a secular world and you have a lot of company that revels in their unbelief and rejection of God."

If I do not know God how can I reject Him? You're not making much sense.

"He is good, kind and knowable. To deny Him is to deny you own salvation."

I don't deny him. I don't know him. And now after a dozen or so posts, all you have done is put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head, which is dishonest. You have said nothing about what you know. I don't think you can, I don't think you do.

Stu,
Creation to you is the end all. You have decided that God has no place in your thinking. You are a rank materialist and life is nothing more than electricity and atoms.

No matter what I, anyone, or God could say to you. You've wrapped yourself in darkness and there is how you have choose to see life.

No argument will you accept to permit light to enter your dark world. It is yours and you love it so.

And like the Jews treated Christ in His home town, because He would not preform for them like a clown they rejected Him like you reject Him.

And like He said to the Jews before His crucifiction, you will not see Me until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord' like you will not see Him until you stop loving your darkness.

verbivore
"Likewise God. He cannot be measured with your telescope, or heard with a stethoscope, or dissected with a microscope. But, like the GA, he is observable."

Interesting, you and JimP/JGP need to argue about the need for objective evidence.

He thinks requiring evidence is absurd, he said "The position you argue for is absurd and an untenable way to live every day. More of life is built on faith than 'objective evidence."

And you also need to argue with yourself, because you agreed with him, "Well said," you said.

I think I'll sit back and watch you two argue with yourselves.

BTW, you misunderstand measuring dark matter indirectly by its effects, and it has been measured directly, see http://home.slac.stanford.edu/pressreleases/2006/20060821. htm .

the great attractor
cannot be measured. it cannot be seen, it cannot be felt. it cannot be heard. yet it exists.

Lonestar and Stu,
row in the similar rowboats. You both don't live in this world. You've chosen a world of your construct and God is not allowed in. He doesn't entertain you enough, He is not the clown you want in your world.

Lonestar comes off with this lame challenge:
"If you knew God, you could tell everybody all about Him."

God Himself has told us who He is. God has done all He will and all He has needed to revealed Himself.

But He is not good enough to enter in either your or Stu's dark world. You both love a world without God.

But like the apostle Paul when he was being apposed but likeminded people, the Jews, as you and Stu, he had to say,

"Since you reject the message of Truth and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we are turning to the Gentiles."

They, the Jews, evaluated themselves as having not enough worth to know God and this is how you and Stue are evaluating yourselves. You measure yourselves as not worthy to know Him.

Verbivore
Didn't Gollum pose this riddle to Bilbo?

Without excuse,
is the Biblical verdict on those who talk like Lonestar and Stu. Not JimP's verdit. That charge will stand forever, if the Bible communicates 'Truth.'

'without hope and without God in the World' said of the gentiles before Christ, now it is the verdict on all who reject God's offer.

If the ressurrection of Christ is a fact, you are 'walking deadmen'
walking toward your judgement even as you 'live and move and have your being in Him.'

Lonestar, I respect to tone of your communications, yet, I from them have gleaned that you are too intelligent to wrangle you with what I've come to regard as endless. I don't want to be offensive to you or anyone, Stu included. What I've tried to present is God's own record, His own Word, about the position you try cleverly defend.

Your and Stu's contention is not with me or Christians it is with God's Word. And according to that Word is where you must answer.

Correction, not 'walking deadmen'
But 'deadmen walking'

for the movie, 'Deadman Walking'
Brodcasted when a man is walking toward his execution.

Sean Penn was walking toward his excution. Judgement was already declared. Those who reject Christ, are already judged in God's court and unless they are 'justified' thy are 'deadmen walking.'

A huge difference, The character in the movie knew the reality of his situation, unbelievers, now, are willfully obnoxiously oblivious to the state of their own life.

verbivore
" Subject: the great attractor
cannot be measured. it cannot be seen, it cannot be felt. it cannot be heard. yet it exists"

You repeat that despite having access to information that falsifies it, why?

According to your argument, I weigh nothing. That fact that my weight indirectly causes the scale to move to some number is meaningless as a measure.

JimP/JGP
" Lonestar and Stu,
row in the similar rowboats. You both don't live in this world. You've chosen a world of your construct and God is not allowed in. He doesn't entertain you enough, He is not the clown you want in your world."

Stop lying, Jim. Why do you need to make things up about people? Is your faith so weak? You insist I deny God when I have not said anything like that. So you just make it up. Once, twice, now thrice. That's deliberate. That's lying, to me, to others, and to yourself.

"Without excuse"

Thou shalt not lie. It is without excuse.

There's little point talking to someone uninterested in truth.

Since atheists exist
We are clearly NOT hardwired to believe in some "god".

To suggest otherwise is to patronize atheists (as theists are wont to do) as crypo-theists.

JimP
>Creation to you is the end all. You have decided that God has no place in your thinking. You are a rank materialist and life is nothing more than electricity and atoms.<

I am a pretty good materialist, and I look to a proud human tradition of rationalism and empiricism.

>No matter what I, anyone, or God could say to you. You've wrapped yourself in darkness and there is how you have choose to see life.<

My choice is that rejecting medieval religious thinking has allowed humans to see far more light than ever before. That is why it was called the Enlightenment.

>No argument will you accept to permit light to enter your dark world. It is yours and you love it so.<

I do love the world I inhabit and I am sad for religious fundamentalists who hate it and are ‘hell-bent’ on moving out of it. To where, I don’t think they really know. I am open to you showing me evidence of your god. I do not completely discount the possibility. However if you follow the evidence, every time you have to conclude there is no Zeus. I mean Jehovah. Uh Yahweh… Whatever.

>And like the Jews treated Christ in His home town, because He would not preform for them like a clown they rejected Him like you reject Him.<

Why did he perform like a clown at all? Surely that goes against the very idea of faith.

>And like He said to the Jews before His crucifiction, you will not see Me until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord' like you will not see Him until you stop loving your darkness.<

Well in that case I will never see ‘him’. Which is pretty much true for everyone, on the real evidence we have.

Stuart

Verbivore
>cannot be measured. it cannot be seen, it cannot be felt. it cannot be heard. yet it exists.<

Tell me how you know it exists then.

Stuart

JimP
> You both don't live in this world. You've chosen a world of your construct and God is not allowed in. He doesn't entertain you enough, He is not the clown you want in your world.<

Aw boo hoo. The poor sad clown’s face at learning of his rejection. We all live in a world of our own construct. It is just that some can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

>But He is not good enough to enter in … Stu's dark world. You both love a world without God.<

There is no god and I love the world. There is no Baal and I love the world. There is no Zeus and I love the world. You might agree with me on two of those virtually identical statements. Why is it not three?

>But like the apostle Paul when he was being apposed but likeminded people, the Jews, as you and Stu, he had to say, "Since you reject the message of Truth and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we are turning to the Gentiles."<

Paul was a deluded zealot. Why don’t you quote the former Iraqi Information Minister? At least he was a humorous zealot.

>They, the Jews, evaluated themselves as having not enough worth to know God and this is how you and Stue are evaluating yourselves. You measure yourselves as not worthy to know Him. <

I measure ‘him’ as not worthy of knowing me, genocidal maniac that ‘he’ admits to being, whereas you and everyone posting here I would happily regard as completely ‘worthy’ company. I don’t get why people worship this obsessive-compulsive, unpredictably violent and slave-driving deity.

Stuart

JimP
>Without excuse, is the Biblical verdict on those who talk like Lonestar and Stu. Not JimP's verdit. That charge will stand forever, if the Bible communicates 'Truth.'<

Without excuse is the smiting god. Without excuse is those who have known for many years that the bible is full of myth and yet claim it all to be true to spite their own reason.

>'without hope and without God in the World' said of the gentiles before Christ, now it is the verdict on all who reject God's offer.<

And you have already read my verdict on your god. Those who follow it are wasting their time if they want to know about truth, for they cannot know something that cannot be detected.

>If the ressurrection of Christ is a fact, you are 'walking deadmen' walking toward your judgement even as you 'live and move and have your being in Him.'<

That threat again. What a loving, forgiving god it is. It condemns 2/3 of the world population who do not self-identify as its slaves.

I don't want to be offensive to you or anyone, Stu included. What I've tried to present is God's own record, His own Word, about the position you try cleverly defend.

I don’t think it is being clever, I think it is just observing the world honestly and acknowledging our successes and our limits. If god can be detected, then lets analyse that information objectively. If god can’t be detected, why even invent such a horrible character as an image?

>Your and Stu's contention is not with me or Christians it is with God's Word. And according to that Word is where you must answer.<

If I ever talk with your god it will be ‘he’ who answers my questions. Justice demands that.

> The character in the movie (Deadman Walking) knew the reality of his situation, unbelievers, now, are willfully obnoxiously oblivious to the state of their own life.<

Thanks for the warning JimP. I will go and slaughter a goat to ‘him’ now.

Stuart

bingo,
Stu. you'll have to ask the experts astronomers about that one. Just as astronomers study the sky and know the Great Attractor exists, Theologians study the Bible and know God exists.

verbivore
"bingo, Stu. you'll have to ask the experts astronomers about that one. Just as astronomers study the sky and know the Great Attractor exists, Theologians study the Bible and know God exists."

More like a gong--where is Chuck Barris when you need him!?--for an analogy that fails.

Here's the astronomy, from http://home.slac.stanford.edu/pressreleases/2006/20060821. htm , "Dark matter, the elusive stuff that makes up a quarter of the universe, has been seen in isolation for the first time. Marusa Bradac of the Kavli Institute for Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology (KIPAC), located at the Department of Energy’s Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC), and her colleagues made the landmark observations by studying a galaxy cluster 3 billion light years away.

"'We had predicted the existence of dark matter for decades, but now we've seen it in action," said Bradac. "This is groundbreaking.'"

And, where, pray tell, verbivore, is the comparable theology?

More serious question, why do you want to give up your faith and believing for reason and knowing? How can you be saved?



fence straddling
"You insist I deny God when I have not said anything like that."

Lonestar, how is that you can continue with the fence straddling? If one does not acknowledge God, one denies God. please state when it was exactly that you acknowledged God. When did you not deny him?

The sun exists. I feel its warmth (well, not today...sorry, it is chitown, after all.) But the sun is real, yet if I continue to argue day after day, week after week, and month after month, that the sun is unknowable; that I do not understand the sun, that unless I personally see evidence of the sun---while denying the evidence that exists---one may reasonably conclude that I deny the sun.

If you do not acknowledge God, you deny him. You cannot have it both ways. Either you exist, or you do not. Either God exist, or he does not.

Faith and knowledge
Ha! First off, I’m talking about the Great Attractor, made up, as I understand of dark matter, but not only dark matter, and not the same as dark matter.

I love your quote from Bradac, substitute the word God. "'We had predicted the existence of [God] for decades, but now we've seen [him] in action," said Bradac. "This is groundbreaking.'"

Or this one, "[God], the [seeming] elusive [creator] that made [the entire]…universe, has been seen ….for the first time.

“Where is the comparable theology?” Oh don’t lets cover that ground again, life’s too short. If you want to know the theology, and know God, study his universe, and study his Word to man. It will take a lifetime, but worth the effort.

Faith, believing, reason, knowing, all the same coin. One leads to the other and back again. I give up nothing, only build on. How can you be saved? By confessing faith, belief, trust, in Jesus Christ. That’s all. 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

And this: 1 John 5:20 “And we KNOW that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may KNOW him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”

verbivore
"Lonestar, how is that you can continue with the fence straddling?"

Not sitting on a fence. I choose to not believe. As you know, I don't find man's concepts of God, and arguments for His existence or for His nonexistence, reasonable. I don't understand why, if God is, people want to limit Him.

"If one does not acknowledge God, one denies God."

Simply not true. How can I acknowledge what I do not and cannot reasonably know? What would I be denying? Your assertion makes no sense.

"please state when it was exactly that you acknowledged God. When did you not deny him?"

Your loaded question makes no sense. I have never known God to acknowledge or deny Him. I have asked you many times to tell me about Him, if you had, I would.

"The sun exists."

It does. It is knowable. Even if only in the saense you say that is gives warmth. We can show that it is the source of that warmth. And we know, reasonably well, where it came from and how it came to be.

"Either you exist, or you do not."

Neither I exist nor I do not has meaning. I am a man, a son, a father, an atheist, a conservative, an American, a human, an animal, a natural being, I was born, I live, and I will die. I am those things, those qualities, those attributes. Meaning emrges from relationships among things. Descartes did not simply say I am, he said I think therefore I am, he meaningfully related himself and thinking, a reasoning animal.

"Either God exist, or he does not."

Two problems with that. One, what I just said about the nature of existence and meaning. Two, you, a person, a human being, are limiting the one you believe created you. If you say God exists, then He can't not exist, and vice versa. You limit God. Isn't that blaphemous?

"Ha!"

The cognitive dissonance is deafening.

verbivore
"I love your quote from Bradac, substitute the word God."

First you limit God, now you play semantic games with God. Is it getting hotter where you are--and I don't mean the warmth of the sun, but that firey place down below.

"Faith, believing, reason, knowing, all the same coin."

To someone who doesn't know what any of them are.

"One leads to the other and back again."

Support your assertion, explain how knowing some is true leads to believing it might be true and how believing something might be true leads to knowing it is true.

verbivore
Here, in demonstrating the equivalence of knowing and believing and how one leads to the other, which is odd, when you think of it, how they are the same, but not, but, anyway, in demonstrating your assertion, use this as your example:

2 + 2 = 4

verbivore?
Alas, even God can't make 2 + 2 = 5. Some truths are transcendent.

yes?
"How can I acknowledge what I do not and cannot reasonably know?”

You can’t. Therefore you deny it because you believe, based on your ability, that you cannot know it. God is unknowable, as you say. BUT he has made himself known. He has revealed himself, such that to the extent that he has revealed himself, he is knowable.

Quite honestly, your last posts make no sense. I cannot answer your questions if you have not revealed your meaning.

Either God exist, or he does not.Again, how does this not make sense? Limiting? Yes, If God exists then he cannot not exist. Blasphemous? Don’t get cheeky.

Have another go. I do not understand what you wish me to explain regarding Faith, Belief and Reason. I was speaking of God, i.e.2+2??)

For example. The Bible is the most critically examined piece of literature in history. It has never been reasonable discounted as an historic document. The NT in particular. The Bible tells the story of real events in real places, at real times. Hard, concrete facts. This is reasonable based on the research and investigation. Based on credible archaeological research, etc. You yourself acknowledge the historicity of Jesus.

My Faith is not that the Bible is historical. That’s knowledge. Reason tells me if the provable parts are true, the seeming unprovable parts are also true. Faith rests in this knowledge—That the God who acted for the Hebrews, who condescends to become man, who makes promises of eternal life---that that God, will do as he promised. My faith is extended to a future time, a future action, a future moment I cannot know. My faith is grounded in going to the Words of God each day and reminding myself—refreshing my knowledge of his Word. Reading and reasonably concluding again, that the God who acted in the past, will also be with me that day.

Verbivor,
Back at you, 'well said'

thank you
.

verbivore
me "How can I acknowledge what I do not and cannot reasonably know?”

you "You can’t."

Should be end of story, but you must distort...

"Therefore you deny it because you believe, based on your ability, that you cannot know it."

I presented a reasonable argument, not a belief. You can pretend it is a belief just like yours, that can be dismissed by another unreasonable belief, but that leads to moral relativism.

"Quite honestly, your last posts make no sense. I cannot answer your questions if you have not revealed your meaning."

It's not enough to claim that, you must show it. Show where I do not make sense as I show you don't. You need to point to what I say, and explain, not merely claim it.

"Either God exist, or he does not....Have another go."

Is that the best you can do, ignore what I said and repeat your argument?

verbivore
"The Bible is the most critically examined piece of literature in history."

Let's assume that's true. What does that say about it's expressed beliefs? Othe than they are beliefs?

"[a] Reason tells me if the provable parts are true, [b] the seeming unprovable parts are also true."

Non sequitur. Reason does not tell you that if [a] is true then [b] is true. And you haven't even shown that [a] is true.

"My faith is grounded in going to the Words of God each day and reminding myself—refreshing my knowledge of his Word. Reading and reasonably concluding again, that the God who acted in the past, will also be with me that day. "

Your faith is grounded in itself, faith.

JimP/JGP
"Back at you, 'well said' "

Question for you, since you got no argument, why did verbivore avoid discussing the truth of 2 + 2 = 4?

inch worm
But Lonestar, I didn't avoid 2+2. I asked you to explain. I don't see how it relates and how you want me to use it as an illustration. I don't understand what you are asking.





lonestar
"Let's assume that's true. What does that say about it's expressed beliefs? Othe than they are beliefs?"

Trying to argue about the Bible with someone who thinks they know the Bible is like arguing with a deaf man who says hearing is a myth. There is a great gulf which you seem unable or unwilling to engage.

The Bible, Lonestar, tells a story. Not about beliefs. But about a god. A God who acted. A God who speaks, a God who creates. A God who, being sovereign, and righteous, rightfully demands obedience from those who desire fellowship with Him. A God who calls disobedience Sin, and demands blood payment for that sin, and then pays the blood payment with his own blood. It is a love story.

Its also a story about a people who acted. A people who responded to that love and what God did in return.

And it tells about the man Jesus, God in the flesh, who paid the blood atonement for the sin of mankind.

So, again, I'm afraid you'll have to articulate your question a bit more clearly if you want me to understand.




Verbivore
>Trying to argue about the Bible with someone who thinks they know the Bible is like arguing with a deaf man who says hearing is a myth. There is a great gulf which you seem unable or unwilling to engage.<

There is a similar feeling in the opposite direction. Evidence and probity seem to mean nothing to those who have allowed themselves to be convinced without question that the bible is some kind of authority. Authority is meaningless when it comes to determining truth.

>The Bible tells a story. Not about beliefs. But about a god. A God who acted. A God who speaks, a God who creates. A God who, being sovereign, and righteous, rightfully demands obedience from those who desire fellowship with Him. A God who calls disobedience Sin, and demands blood payment for that sin, and then pays the blood payment with his own blood. It is a love story.<

You lightly skip over Step One, which is that of asking whether there is any evidence to support the stories in the bible. It is a complex question and the answers would seem to be that there is some archeological evidence to support some stories in the bible; other stories tell of things that would be expected to leave evidence but don’t (like the alleged Exodus, or the existence of Jesus) and a further category of things that cannot reasonably be said to have happened (Adam & Eve, miracles, resurrection, the Noachian ark and flood). If there is some question about some parts then I wonder what contribution to the search for truth you really think you can make. Assertion of what you would like to be the truth is irrelevant. What kind of discussion is it if one party has a book that tells them that they cannot possibly be wrong?

Stuart

lonestar
"Your faith is grounded in itself, faith."

Or perhaps explaining to you is more like explaining sight to a blind man. How does one explain light, when one continues to deny that such a thing is impossible merely because he himself has not experienced it.

My faith is grounded in Jesus Christ.

Call it what ever makes you sleep at night. But it is Jesus Christ who calls me by name, who KNEW ME, before he even laid the foundation of the world. (see, there's that planning again....it was all in his mind before we knew even one day.)

sorry, didn't
If you will read the previous post from Lonestar, I made an assertion regarding the level and extent to which the Bible has been examined for authenticity.

Lonestar said "assuming that's true..." So we went from there.

Nice try though.

stu
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1343.htm

http://www.probe.org/reasons-to-believe/are-the-biblical-do cuments-reliable.html

In the interest of time Stu, as I'm about to hit the sack, here are a couple links. Go ahead, pick em apart. The first is from John MacArthur, one of the most respected, and knowledgeable pastors in the country. (i.e. He's not just "some guy"). Or in other words, your opinion does not carry the same weight as his.

Probe ministries is also a credible and reliable ministry.

g'night. Too much wine and too much song....wonder how we got along....

stu

"There is a similar feeling in the opposite direction. Evidence and probity seem to mean nothing"

Ha! I'm sure that's very true. What you don't understand is that Christians have already grappled with this as you are now. Evidence means something...it's just that the evidence is there.

verbivore
"But Lonestar, I didn't avoid 2+2. I asked you to explain. I don't see how it relates and how you want me to use it as an illustration. I don't understand what you are asking."

No, as per usual, you ignore most of my questions, and what you do address, you first twist into something I didn't say, for example, I say I choose to not believe, and you twist that into you deny God. Really not much different than JimP/JGP.

So how's 2 + 2 = 4 relate? Answer a real simple question: Is it true that 2 + 2 = 4?

verbivore
"Trying to argue about the Bible with someone who thinks they know the Bible is like arguing with a deaf man who says hearing is a myth."

Thing is I don't claim to know the Bible like you claim to, whu=ich, by your reasoning, makes you deaf. When you use ad homenem, be careful it doesn't backfire.

"The Bible, Lonestar, tells a story. Not about beliefs. But about a god."

It's a story expressing belief in a God--actually gods, each author's, each reader's.

"So, again, I'm afraid you'll have to articulate your question a bit more clearly if you want me to understand."

Is 2 + 2 = 4 too difficult?

"How does one explain light, when one continues to deny that such a thing is impossible merely because he himself has not experienced it."

There you go again telling me I say or think something I don't. I'm starting to wonder why you and JimP and others constantly do that.

"My faith is grounded in Jesus Christ."

So you believe what He might have believed? Faith in faith.

"it was all in his mind before we knew even one day"

I know the Bible well enough that that isn't in it.



soothing ruffled feathers
“you ignore most of my questions” Feeling a little wounded are we? I ignore MOST? Really? I certainly don’t mean to ignore questions. Should we start keeping track—on both sides---wouldn’t that get tedious?

2+2=4. What’s the question?

I don’t mean to twist anything. I’m trying to consider the logical conclusions of your assertions. The logical conclusion of not acknowledging God, is denying God. I will also assert, you don’t have as much “choice” as you think you do.

“There you go again telling me I say or think something I don't.”

What’s the matter Lonestar? Don’t like being confronted with the idea that light is possible?

Here again is what you quote me as saying: "How does one explain light, when one continues to deny that such a thing is impossible merely because he himself has not experienced it."

Let’s substitute the word “God” for light. Are you saying God may exist, and that his existence is not contingent on your experience? Do I misunderstand you? I’m trying hard to understand you Lonestar, but it just isn’t clear to me.


V:"My faith is grounded in Jesus Christ."

L:“So you believe what He might have believed?”

Twisting my words now? What this “might have believed”? Talk about wussing out. Jesus did not “believe” he was God. He was God. Just as you do not “Believe” you are a man. You are a man. (at least that’s what I “believe” you tell me!) His life was not sustained by “Faith.” He was the I AM. The eternal, the beginning, the end. The bread of life. His own “sustenance” if you will.

Before the foundation
V. "it was all in his mind before we knew even one day"
L: “I know the Bible well enough that that isn't in it.”

Are you sure you want to hang your hat on that? Sorry, it’s taken me so long to answer this, but it is a holiday weekend, and the sun is out…finally! Here we go. First the verse, then a brief explanation.

“Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.” Ephesians 1:4,5

This verse is saying that God knew you and me before even the foundation of the world. This verse is directed at Christian believers, but the indication is that all of us were in his mind before the world began…he PLANNED us.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

This verse is directed at the prophet Jeremiah, but is another verse pointing to the truth that it is God who forms us in the womb, God who plans our days, and God knew us before we were.

“Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. “Psalm 139: 16.

Develops the theme that before we were formed, before were born, we were known. Pretty clearly stated, don't you think?

Enough for this post, the next post are some verses just about what God actually planned and what was known before the foundation.Just for fun.

Jesus before the foundation
John 15 is an important prayer of Jesus in the days leading up to the crucifixion. In this prayer, he not only prays for his disciples, but also for those who will come after. The rest of believers not yet born. We get a glimpse in this prayer of something of the relationship between the Father and the Son. A relationship that clearly existed before time.

And he says this, “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 15:24)
1 Peter 1:18-21 “Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”

This verse again points to some of the foreknowledge of God. First, the author talks about how Jesus has paid a ransom with his own blood for our sin, but then it says something amazing. That Jesus and the entire plan of redemption was in God’s mind, before the world was made. “he was foreknown before the foundation of the world..”


what God knew and when he knew it.
Now a few verses about creation and what God knew and when he knew it.

Hebrews 1:10 “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”

And this next one, from the NT, speaks very specifically about the act of creation. Hebrews 4:3,4 “ …although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."


bonus round
And just for a bonus, I’m tossing in this portion of Proverbs 8. It’s a personification of Wisdom. The verses speak very beautifully about the planning and architect of creation.

It’s metaphor. Wisdom is speaking. I’ve left it in a poetry format.

Proverbs 8
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.

Verbivore
I had a fairly quick read of the pages you cited. What would you say is the single most convincing argument contained in either of them that verifies in a scientific way the historical claims of the bible?

Stuart

verbivore
"'you ignore most of my questions' Feeling a little wounded are we?"

Nice try at twisting words again, but, no, just pointing out a fact.

"I don’t mean to twist anything."

After a while it becomes evident you do.

"2+2=4. What’s the question?"

And side stepping. The question was plain and simple.

"The logical conclusion of not acknowledging God, is denying God."

That false dichotomy begs too many questions that you ignore: Do you believe? What do you believe? What is God? How can you claim to acknowledge something you have no knowledge of?

"I will also assert, you don’t have as much “choice” as you think you do."

Substantiate your assertion.

"What’s the matter Lonestar?"

How pathetic to play these emotional games, verbivore. My point is your twisting words, begging questions, and straw men are intellectually dishonst. Like I said, the cognitive disonance is deafening.

"Let’s substitute the word “God” for light."

Already commented you're playing semantic games. Thought you might respond to that instead of circling back around to repeat your false analogy.

"Jesus did not 'believe' he was God."

He believed He was, or so His followers believe(d).

verbivore
"This verse is saying that God knew you and me before even the foundation of the world."

Ephesians 1:4,5 is saying the author believed that. It also says there are many sons of God, which Jesus claimed as well, a common expression in those days.

Jeremiah 1:5 is God talking to Jeremiah.

Psalm 139: 16 not about David.

"Pretty clearly stated, don't you think?"

Yes, that none meet your claim.

"We get a glimpse in this prayer of something of the relationship between the Father and the Son. A relationship that clearly existed before time."

Not in the text, but read into it. Ditto the remaining verses.

You made a claim and fail to substantiate it with other than your reading into the text. Even as you say "First, the author talks"--yes, of his beliefs.

Hebrews 1:10 does not support "it was all in his mind before we knew even one day". Hebrews 4:3,4 looks back, not forward.

"It’s metaphor."

Indeed, it is. But that does not give you free license to misinterpret.


But let's get back to one simple question, since the math question is too difficult to understand, this question: How does one acknowledge or deny what one does not know?

Stu
"What would you say is the single most convincing argument contained in either of them that verifies in a scientific way the historical claims of the bible?"

How bout you tell me? I gather you discount everything you read. And that's fine. Certainly your prerogative.

no time for this
Regarding your second post,quit playing games. You say you don’t claim to know the Bible, and now you are telling me what it does and does not say. As though I just pick these meanings out of the air.I don't have time to give a lesson in biblical interpretation,or hermeneutics. Look it up yourself. If you really want to know God Lonestar, why do you argue with unschooled people such as myself? “Having eyes you do not see, and ears you do not hear. “

God had YOU in mind, before the foundation of the world. Believe it, don’t believe it, but don’t tell me it isn’t in the Bible. Talk to a theologian with a string of degrees past his name if you don’t believe me.

I’m not sidestepping, I’m trying to understand what the heck you are talking about. I take it back. Your question, “How does one acknowledge or deny what one does not know? “ I talked about this with my husband the other day. And he says your right. To your mind, you cannot see it any other way. But in contrast, nor can I see it any other way. I cannot conceive of No God. God has made himself known, in ways I can see so clearly, that I cannot conceive, that he is not.

Verbivor et all,
Verbivor you're doing a great job. I will contribute if I can.

Lonestar and Stu have raised 'logic and Scientific inquiry' to idolalotry. Why? 'They worship and serve creation (creature) rather than the creator Who is Blessed forever, Amen.'

Provable by the fact that 'Scientific inquiry and Logic' are inventions of man (the creature) for them to grope to try to understand creation. They love man's inventions more than the Almight Creator who is above the creature and His creation and sees and knows both perfectly and completely.

They have began in this piligramage toward their idolotry when the denied the obvious.

God's characterization of this and them is below, not mine, not Verbivor's, not any man's

Rom. 1:19,21 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened.

This is God's witness of men. He is the authority on these truths, not subject to the worm of men's 'sceintific inquiry' but the veracity of His Pure Character.

Futile, they start off denying the obvious. Until Lonestar and Stu repent of their idolotry they will live in this world without hope and without God.

Lonestar, I know enough about the philosophy of math that 2+2=4 is true within certain restricticed paramaters. You chosen to make those parameters greater than God, i.e., you won't allow God in because of your holy parameters.

lonestar blues
Lonestar. God is unknowable. But he has made himself known. Through his Word. And through Creation. To that end, if I believed as you claim to believe, that God was a concept I could not conceive, yet also thought, as you seem to indicate that there was even the slightest possibility God existed, I don’t know that I would I spend my days talking to nameless, faceless people on the computer.
If my eternal soul might possibly hang in the balance, if this unknown God, created me and knew me, and numbered my days before there was even one of them, I would move heaven and earth to find out if was real.
I would read the Bible cover to cover again and again. I would talk not only to anyone who would listen (as you do), but also to learned men and scholars who could answer all my questions. I might even become a student of biblical theology, just to make sure I completely understood the Words of God revealed to man. Learning Hebrew and Greek wouldn’t be too much, if I desired to know God and yet found him unknowable. I would fall on my knees and ask the God of heaven to reveal himself to me.
But I wouldn’t play semantic games, and twist meanings, and hide behind a cloak of “reason.” These are just smokescreens. In the end, none of that will save you, and no excuse you offer will be good enough.
I’ll say it one more time. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the remedy. Jesus lived in real time and real space. He made an audacious claim and then proved it by walking out of a grave.

Choosing,
finite, dead, corrupt, precepts and logic, creations of men, rather that the infinite, living, holy, omniscient, Creator, God.


what a pathetic choice.

verbivore
"Regarding your second post,quit playing games. You say you don’t claim to know the Bible, and now you are telling me what it does and does not say."

Nice ploy and nice try. I didn't say I didn't know the Bible--you can't even get something simple as that straight, but got to twist it to make an argument! I said, and I quote, and you might try it once in a while, though it would defeat most of your arguments, "I know the Bible well enough that that isn't in it." You cited passages that did not say as you claimed. You claimed, while we were discussing Jesus, "it was all in his mind before we knew even one day". So I'd like to see Him claiming it.

"As though I just pick these meanings out of the air."

No, probably not like you pick things out of the air I never said, probably it's what many CHristians claim, because it's what you're taught by this authority or that, as you say "I don't have time to give a lesson in biblical interpretation,or hermeneutics." All I need do is look at the text and argue from it--“Having eyes you do not see, and ears you do not hear."

"God had YOU in mind, before the foundation of the world. Believe it, don’t believe it, but don’t tell me it isn’t in the Bible."

Show it, don't point to theologians, point to the text, argue from the text.

"I’m not sidestepping, I’m trying to understand what the heck you are talking about. I take it back. Your question, “How does one acknowledge or deny what one does not know? “ I talked about this with my husband the other day. And he says your right."

Thank you. The question was plain as day.

"To your mind, you cannot see it any other way."

You just answered this, how can I accept or deny what I don't know?

verbivore
"But in contrast, nor can I see it any other way. I cannot conceive of No God."

Oh, Jesus! Save me from your followers! Verbivore, I am not arguing there is no God, never have. You can't accept or deny what you don't know, or believe. I neither believe in God nor believe in no God. When it comes to God, I simply do not believe, one way or the other.

"God has made himself known, in ways I can see so clearly, that I cannot conceive, that he is not."

You're misusing 'know', how can you know something you cannot conceive of, let alone establish the truth of? It boggles the mind. It seems to me when it comes down to it you have all these metaphors, these models of God, and it seems to me you believe in the metaphots, the models, not God.

"God is unknowable. But he has made himself known."

A self-annihilating assertion. God is not X, God is X. Not X plus X = 0.

"if I believed as you claim to believe, that God was a concept I could not conceive"

But God, if He exists, would not be a concept or the words you use. When I think of the computer I'm typing at, that conception of the computer is not the computer, it's a concept of a computer. Same when I type 'computer', the word is not the computer, its a reference to a computer. My point is you have all these concepts constructed out of metaphors, but they do not tell anyone what we do not know about God, in fact most are contradictory, and at best mysterious--a synonym for unknown. We cannot escape this, we cannot go beyond our language or beyond reason, we cannot be but what by nature we are, human, reasoning, communicating beings, full of flaws and corruption. You can't see perfection, and you can't be perfected. You can't save the world, you can't save man from himself.

verbivore
"as you seem to indicate that there was even the slightest possibility God existed"

Not knowing indicates nothing. Might He exist, might He not, I can't know, and I assert neither can you: "God is unknowable."

"I don’t know that I would I spend my days talking to nameless, faceless people on the computer"

Two points here. One, the straw man you invested for me might not. Two, here I am.

"I would read the Bible cover to cover again and again"

I would read every book I could lay my hands on, talk to every person I could waylay for a moment, in short seek the truth. If there is a creator God, then His message would be everywhere, not just the words of a few.

"But I wouldn’t play semantic games, and twist meanings, and hide behind a cloak of “reason.” These are just smokescreens."

Then I suggest you stop.

And I suggest you stop your false accusations. At least when I say you're doing those things I cite the words showing it and substantiate with explanation. I might be wrong, but my words are not empty.

JimP/JGP
"Verbivor you're doing a great job."

It violates argumentation ethics to both participate in an argument and to judge it for anything more than agreement with your position. When you engage in dialog, you accept others as you yourself want to be taken. Even Jesus knew that, do unto others. It also means you take people at their word, and not try to put words in their mouth and then argue against those words.

"Lonestar and Stu have raised 'logic and Scientific inquiry' to idolalotry."

And there you go lying again. And defeating your own argument. For you argue there against logic, and then proceed to use logic to argue. Only problem with your logic is it's based on a false premise, one that you made up out of whole cloth. You also argue against the God you believe in, for if there is a creator God he made reason a aprt of man's nature, but you stand now against both God and man's nature.

I do not idolize logic or reason. I use them same as you try to.

"Provable by the fact that 'Scientific inquiry and Logic' are inventions of man (the creature) for them to grope to try to understand creation."

Man invented logic? Where do you come up we these gems of nonsense. Man did not invent logic. Tell me, consider the logical law of non-contradiction that say you cannot say both X and not X and speak true. Do you really think that's true because you or I invent it. It's simply a part of man's nature to reason logically.

"denied the obvious"

You have yet to tell me the obvious that you claim to know, namely God. You keep talking round about in circles about your knowing God and never once yet have you said what you know. Verbivore, whom you agree with, now agrees with me, God is unknowable. And you agree with her. Which means, once again, you've contradicted yourself.

JimP/JGP
"God's characterization of this and them is below, not mine, not Verbivor's, not any man's"

Assume that's true. How would you then know it? By some man's words? Another contradiction.

"Until Lonestar and Stu repent of their idolotry they will live in this world without hope and without God."

And until you stop lying about me you will not see your God.

"Lonestar, I know enough about the philosophy of math that 2+2=4 is true within certain restricticed paramaters. You chosen to make those parameters greater than God, i.e., you won't allow God in because of your holy parameters."

2 + 2 = 4 is absolutely true. The parameters are 2 and 2, the result 4, that is true. It has nothing to do with being greater or lesser than God. It is simply true. And it is true regardless of whether God exists or not. It is true and God cannot make it not true.

By the way, that is not my argument but a variation of that of Hugo Grotius, the great Protestant jurist of the 17th century, arguing natural law: "Measureless as is the power of God, nevertheless it can be said that there are certain things over which that power does not extend. . . . Just as even God cannot cause that two times two should not make four, so He cannot cause that which is intrinsically evil be not evil."

Why not instead of making things up about me, why not argue with what I'm actually saying?

"Choosing, finite, dead, corrupt, precepts and logic, creations of men, rather that the infinite, living, holy, omniscient, Creator, God. what a pathetic choice."

What a pathetic straw man you make up.

Lonestar,
Assume nothing, it is true. If I said otherwise I would b a liar like you.

You and Stu and others like you contend with God not me.

His words are these,

John 3:18,19 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil.

You have an agenda, you love the darkness more than the light. If you know God, you are a liar and a coward for not confessing it. If you don't know Him that you are a rank idolotar. Either way you deny the very fiber that connects a person with God, i.e., faith.

2+2=4 is a completely abstract notion. To claim absoluteness and make it a measure to know 'truth' is to escape accountablity from God into your own darkness and is your own strawman and rationalization.

Gortius is but a man, it is your folly to give more authority to his words than to God's.

2+2=4
is meaningless unless someone assigns it meaning. Even then its meaning rests on the authority of the one determining that meaning. That then goes back to 'faith' in the one assinging it meaning. Faith in God or faith in a man, reasoning ends up arguing from faith.

Truth rests on the authority of the one communicating it. Apart from what is obvious through Creation, truth from God is not a matter of 'scientific inquiry' of 'rule of logic' devised by men because these 'truths' are apart of creation.

If 'truth of God' is not subject with man deivised criteria that men apprehend Him and 'truth' through faith.

Do deny or say that God is unknowable is blatanly false and to wait until 'logic' reveals Him is error and excuse to deny Him.

lsb
"God had YOU in mind, before the foundation of the world. Believe it, don’t believe it, but don’t tell me it isn’t in the Bible."

Show it, don't point to theologians, point to the text, argue from the text. Yes, and you’re right, I’m just being lazy. That requires hours and hours of work. Can’t you just take my word for it? :) Psalm 139. Yes, it’s a psalm of David. Do you think God knew David and not the rest of mankind? When David prays this prayer, he is uttering truths about the nature of God. He is not talking about himself, he is talking about God. That it is God who sees our unformed substance, (which by the way is literally, “rolled up”…like an embryo) it is God who numbers not just David’s days, but all our days, It is God who knows his children from before the foundation of the world. God entered into relationship with his own, before we were even born!

“how can I accept or deny what I don't know?”
Only if God shows you.

lsb
“I neither believe in God nor believe in no God.”

And try as I might, I cannot understand that.

“It boggles the mind." Truly.

God is personally knowable insofar as he has made himself known. We can know true things about God. All that scripture tells us about God is true. It is true that God is love, (1 John 4:8) , He is Just, he is Righteous. (Romans 3:26) God is light, 1 John 1:5, God is spirit, John 4:24. This does not mean we know everything about God, or that we know everything about the attributes. Just as we know a person, we do not everything about a person. It is true knowledge, but not exhaustive knowledge.

In addition, we not only know facts about God, but can know God himself. I know facts about the president, but do not know him personally. But with God, I can enjoy actual relationship. Relationship with Man is something God delights in. Jeremiah 9:23-24.

Jesus attests to this as well, John 17:3. “And this is eternal life, that they KNOW YOU the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Other verses, 1 John 5:20, Gal. 4:9, Phil. 3:10, 1 John2:3;4:8.
Christians speak to God in prayer and he answers through his Word. It is a personal relationship where we are aware that he dwells among us and in us.

lsb
“But God, if He exists, would not be a concept” No, not to me, but to you I understand that he is a concept of which you cannot conceive.

“ If there is a creator God, then His message would be everywhere, not just the words of a few.”

Yep. “the heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech, night after night, they proclaim knowledge.” (Psalm 19)

“Hugo Grotius, the great Protestant” Admitting my ignorance, I don’t know who is, but if he believed as you quote him, I’d have to disagree. He’s wrong.


Lonestar and Stu,
I overstepped my bounds in the next to the last post.

My apology offered. I mean to challenge not to offend, I did the later.

JimP

Verbivore
Stu: "What would you say is the single most convincing argument contained in either of them that verifies in a scientific way the historical claims of the bible?"

>How bout you tell me? I gather you discount everything you read. And that's fine. Certainly your prerogative. <

Sorry, it’s your turn. Which of the myriad of points made in those pages would you say is the one that really socks it to non-christians? Which is the killer blow, in your opinion?

Stuart

JimP
>Until Lonestar and Stu repent of their idolotry they will live in this world without hope and without God.<

I don’t live without hope but I do live without god.

>You and Stu and others like you contend with God not me.<

It would be a bit more reassuring if I had your support in attempting to bring this Judeo-christian god to justice for his genocidal savagery. Do you not care for justice?

>His words are these, John 3:18,19 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. <

Whereas non-believers don’t try and ‘condemn’ anyone.

>You have an agenda, you love the darkness more than the light. If you know God, you are a liar and a coward for not confessing it. If you don't know Him that you are a rank idolotar. Either way you deny the very fiber that connects a person with God, i.e., faith.<

It’s worse that that. I condemn faith (not the faithful, mind you) as a mindless and dishonest pursuit, in which you can claim anything to be true. I don’t ‘know god’ any more or less than you do. The bible says so… except in the parts where it says the opposite. Don’t idolaters worship false gods? I don’t worship anything, I think it is a juvenile thing to do. I am curious to learn more about this 'agenda' I apparently have.

Stuart

JimP/JGP
"If I said otherwise I would b a liar like you."

Ad hominem, is that your best argument? It's the most assured sign of a weak one. You can't even point to an instance of a lie--except those I have pointed out in your posts. Try again, Jim.

"You and Stu and others like you contend with God not me."

But, Jim, if you bothered to read, you would know I don't know God to contend with Him. And, you, sir, have done absolutely nothing to convince me you know Him. Rather, you once more lie about me.

"You have an agenda, you love the darkness more than the light. If you know God, you are a liar and a coward for not confessing it. If you don't know Him that you are a rank idolotar. Either way you deny the very fiber that connects a person with God, i.e., faith."

No, I don't know God, and you know that. And, no, I am not an idolater, and you know that. And, no, I do not deny faith, for if I don't know God, how can I know faith?

"2+2=4 is a completely abstract notion. To claim absoluteness and make it a measure to know 'truth' is to escape accountablity from God into your own darkness and is your own strawman and rationalization."

So you're saying 2 + 2 = 4 is not absolutely true? And, Jim, how does that truth serve as a measure of truth? Make sense, Jim, do try and make sense.

"Gortius [sic] is but a man, it is your folly to give more authority to his words than to God's. "

I didn't cite him as an authority. 2 + 2 = 4 is true regardless what he, you, I or God say.

And, Jim, you're just a man, and no authority. How could you be, most everything you say about me is a lie, why would I trust you to tell the truth about anything?

JimP/JGP
"2+2=4 is meaningless unless someone assigns it meaning"

Huh? You just spent an entire post arguing about this mathematical expression and now you assert it's meaningless. All you're doing is pointing out you can't compare apples and oranges, still you can add them.

"Truth rests on the authority of the one communicating it."

You just rejected appeal to authority and now you use it?

"truth from God is not a matter of 'scientific inquiry' of 'rule of logic' devised by men because these 'truths' are apart of creation."

Besides not making a bit of sense--what the heck do you mean by 'scientific inquiry' of 'rule of logic'--you're not telling us what truth is, just what it is not, according to the authority of you, a man.

"If 'truth of God' is not subject with man deivised criteria that men apprehend Him and 'truth' through faith."

How do you have faith in God without knowing who or what God is? Since you cannot tell me who or what God is, I have to ask you, do you have faith?

"Do deny or say that God is unknowable is blatanly false and to wait until 'logic' reveals Him is error and excuse to deny Him."

Jim, you're not really making much sense. Your words are getting more and more garbled. Seems to me you're trying to rationalize how not knowing God is denying God. If so, please explain how I can deny God when I don't know Him, or, better, explain how you can accept God without knowing Him.

"I overstepped my bounds in the next to the last post. My apology offered. I mean to challenge not to offend, I did the later."

Try to explain how I can deny God when I don't know Him, or, better, explain how you can accept God without knowing Him.

Stuart,
What is you hope without God?

"Do you not care for Justice?"

Your own sense of justice comes from the God you hate. You've been made in His own image dodo.

God must be judge over His creation. If he didn't then people could have a legitimate gripe toward him unlike you.

Who is claiming anything to be true? Your baseless claims have all the earmarks of an agenda.

Are you a secular Jew? One who rejects the God of your fathers. Curious.

Stuart,
I'm going to cut off this dialog. I'm getting carried away with insulting and regretting it. It is my wrong and last apology.

Maybe it'll be picked up in the future.

Peace.


verbivore
"Can’t you just take my word for it?"

After you've exhibited a tendency to distort my words?

"Do you think God knew David and not the rest of mankind?"

The question was where does the Bible say He does.

"When David prays this prayer, he is uttering truths about the nature of God."

His beliefs in God, his conception of God.

"God entered into relationship with his own, before we were even born!"

Nice reading, but the text doesn't say that. Yours is, in general, a Christian reading of Jewish scripture. Jewish scholars I've read advise, if you want to understand the meaning as written, first set aside all Christian notions and additions.

me “how can I accept or deny what I don't know?”

you "Only if God shows you."

Either He hasn't, or He has and you haven't been shown. After all, you have told me anything about God.

"And try as I might, I cannot understand that."

That's an honest start. Now, instead of telling me what I think, which is wrong, try and find out.

"God is personally knowable insofar as he has made himself known. We can know true things about God. All that scripture tells us about God is true."

Love, righteousness tell me God is human, light that God is natural, spirit, nothing. Once again, the metaphors fail. The known does not act as a stepping stone to the unknown.

"Just as we know a person, we do not everything about a person. It is true knowledge, but not exhaustive knowledge."

Right, but knowing they are human and natural allows us to assume all the rest empathetically because we are the same. The analogy doesn't stretch to but breaks like a rubberband in the case of God who is, supposedly, something more, something transcendent, something perfect, all powerful, and other attributes the human mind cannot reason to understand.

verbivore
me “But God, if He exists, would not be a concept”

you "No, not to me, but to you I understand that he is a concept of which you cannot conceive"

Go back to not understanding. How can you cite me saying God is not a concept and then respond saying I say He is? Make sense, please.

Once again, simple as can be: A word refers to a concept about some thing in the real world. You've got reality. Man forms concepts about that reality in trying to understand it. Man uses words to refer to those concepts. When I say "my truck" the words certainly are not my truck, nor is the concept, some generalized truck, my truck. When you say "my husband" the words aren't your husband nor is the concept they refer to your husband. Apply that to God.

Now, despite all of your and JimP's hand wringing over the matter, that's all we as human beings have to work with. He can argue against arguing, reason against reasoning, and deny his human nature till the cows come home, it's all a self-defeating, self-contradictory argument that begs the question, who or what is God?

"'Hugo Grotius, the great Protestant' Admitting my ignorance, I don’t know who is, but if he believed as you quote him, I’d have to disagree. He’s wrong."

Read something more than your Bible. What's said is simple. If something is true, universally, absolutely, transcendently, then it is true regardless of the question of God. If you disagree and argue truth depends on God, you have made truth morally relativistic.

Either He hasn't, or He has and you haven't been shown.

JimP
>What is you hope without God? <

My hope is for a life lived in the light of the astonishing fact of my existence, the quest to understand something of the universe I live in and the curious nature of my fellow humans. I hope to act for the increase in happiness of myself and others.

Stu: "Do you not care for Justice?"

>Your own sense of justice comes from the God you hate. You've been made in His own image dodo. God must be judge over His creation. If he didn't then people could have a legitimate gripe toward him unlike you.<

Why must this brutal dictator be allowed free reign? I think you would have objected to living under Stalin. Compared to the Judeo-christian god, Stalin was amateur at killing and terrorising. I’m sure people also worshipped Stalin.

Stuart

JimP
>Who is claiming anything to be true? Your baseless claims have all the earmarks of an agenda.<

I am impressed with your honesty about truth. Can I conclude that you do not make truth claims based on the bible? It would help if you could give an example of a claim that I have made which is ‘baseless’. I like to think I am able to back up what I say with evidence and would retract anything that was not supported. Of course you must appreciate that I am an atheist and do not actually believe there is a god of the brutal kind described. Violence is done in the name of a fictional god, not inspired by a real one.

>Are you a secular Jew? One who rejects the God of your fathers. Curious. <

I have never believed a word of Judeo-christian mythology, and my heritage is not Jewish.

>I'm going to cut off this dialog. I'm getting carried away with insulting and regretting it. It is my wrong and last apology. Maybe it'll be picked up in the future. Peace.<

OK I look forward to next time. I prefer a discussion of ideas, not ad homs and I won’t pull punches regarding religious belief, however it is in the spirit of attacking the heroin supply and not the addict (if you will pardon the analogy!)

Stuart

stu and lsb
Well Stu, I’ve not read the “myriad of points made in those pages.” I skim through, on occasion, as I have need or interest. I'm not looking to be convinced by any of them. But some non-Christians find it helpful.

Which one “socks it to non-Christians?” Don’t know. It depends. Maybe none. Some people I know are quite impacted at some of the arguments. Some couldn’t care less. Everyone is different.

God calls me, and my desire is to defend the faith. That’s all. We proclaim the truth of God and the truth of his Word to Man. If you don’t believe it, well, that’s not really my problem, now is it?

LSB, your friend Grotius. You quote as saying, "Measureless as is the power of God, nevertheless it can be said that there are certain things over which that power does not extend. . . . Just as even God cannot cause that two times two should not make four, so He cannot cause that which is intrinsically evil be not evil."

My bad. I misread the quote. Umm, 2X2 is 4. That’s an absolute. God is absolute. What is “intrinsically evil?” The Devil? Isn’t this a variation of “Can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it?” God’s power extends to all things. That’s where I disagree. God created Satan. But lets not get into a discussion of did God create evil. God’s power extends to the very depths of hell. God decrees that 2 and 2 are 4.
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