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Saturday, March 15, 2008
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Deadly Trend
by Chuck Colson
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Sociologist Stefan Timmerman has observed that “Humans in every society studied to date are more likely to be murdered on the day they are born than on any other day of their lives.” Timmerman was quoted recently by bioethicist Wesley J. Smith in the online publication To the Source.

Smith rightly claims that while infanticide was commonly accepted in ancient times, only the Jews and the Christians actively opposed it. The strength of their opposition paid off “when infanticide was outlawed by Emperor Valentinian, a Christian, in the 4th century.”

So, as Western culture abandons its Christian roots, we ought not to be surprised that infanticide is making a comeback.

Take a look at what is already happening in the Netherlands. In 2004, doctors from Groningen University Medical Center admitted to killing, or “euthanizing,” to use the euphemism, dying or profoundly disabled babies. That practice came to be known as the Groningen Protocol.

Under those guidelines, not only are dying infants killed, but so are disabled infants who do not even require intensive care. The criteria for euthanizing a baby are subjective: Either the baby is judged to have no chance of survival; may survive after intensive treatment but with a grim future; or endures “suffering [that] is severe, sustained, and cannot be alleviated.” These criteria depend on the doctor’s whim.

So much for the Hippocratic Oath.

By judging which life is valuable or not, doctors are doing precisely what the Nazis did over 60 years ago. The Nazis even had a phrase for this, which translated means “life not worth living”—and not because of the individuals’ suffering, but because of their burden and cost to society.

“As the West loses some of its Biblical moral footing,” writes Smith, “there is a new effort to decriminalize infanticide.” In fact, he asserts, “the notion is ‘positively trendy’.” Most notably, of course, is Princeton Professor Peter Singer who has advocated for some time killing disabled infants. But he is not the only one. When the Groningen Protocol was revealed, others began—not condemning it—but, sadly enough, defending it.

Smith noted a New York Times feature and a New England Journal of Medicine report, both giving credence and sympathy to Dutch infanticide proponents. And now the Hastings Center Report, the most respected journal on bioethics, has published another pro-Groningen Protocol article in which the authors not only “support lethally injecting dying babies, but also those who are disabled.”

“The article assumes that guidelines will protect against abuse,” writes Smith, but, as he points out, “infanticide is by definition abuse.” And, as Smith reminds readers, Dutch euthanasia guidelines for adults and teens have been “violated for decades,” so why should we expect anything different with infanticide guidelines?

“[W]e are moving toward a medical system,” says Smith, “in which babies are put down like dogs and killing is redefined as a caring act.”

But this can happen only in a society that has forgotten that every human life is made in the image of God—and, therefore, worthy of protection.

Think worldviews do not matter? Think our Christian heritage is irrelevant? Too bad we cannot ask the infants of Groningen what they think.

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About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
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Good Colmn, Chuck.
Not much to add. We have come to disregard life unless it has "value." The problem is, who decides just what that "value" is?

Only a civil war...
Tell me again that the clash between conservatism and Leftism can ever be solved by reasoned arguments.

Does anyone really think that a philosophy built on moral relativism, nihilism, selfishness and narcissism can ever be stopped, short of armed resistance?

The Left has already begun the killing.

I'm telling you, they will never willingly back down or give up the hold they have on the West.

Hillary delenda est.

Only Jesus Christ
As important as I think Christians should get involved in politics, the Baron is wrong. Only Jesus Christ and his saving grace is going to save our society. We could win a million civil wars that don't kill a single baby by infanticide or abortion and if you don't have Jesus you are still lost forever.

Remember the wise teaching of Christ where He warned us that you can "gain the whole world and still lose your soul".

Try telling your neighbors about Christ today and you could save a soul from a worse death than infanticide.

TR'S Comment
I hope you are familiar with the concept that all of us sin, and that sins can be forgiven. I don't dispute that what Dr. Colson did when he was in the Nixon administration was wrong. OK, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.(that's not an original line, by the way) And of course, ad hominem arguments (Dr. Colson is an evil person, therefore his arguments as to a moral question are wrong) do nothing to refute his point.

TR
I think you need to do a little more research into the life of Chuck Colson. Did he commit a crime? Yes. Did he serve jail time? Yes.

What you obviously do not know is that through that time, he became a Christian and has thoroughly repented of his crimes. His life since those days has been exemplary, and his message has been a consistent one of faith, honesty, and integrity. He has completely forsaken his old ways and embraced those of true Christian faith.

There are many people who claim the name of Christ who have failed to practice what they preach. Too many have sold themselves out to the political process for power, money, or fame, and their hypocrisy has weakened the testimony of all Christians. However, Chuck Colson does not fall into this camp. He has stood firm in his faith and in his convictions.

His point in this article is informative and articulate. It is certainly worth thought and consideration. Our heritage of life and freedom are grounded in the Christian faith and world view of many of our founding fathers, and as we erode this foundation, our country will suffer for it.

TheBaron
"Tell me again that the clash between conservatism and Leftism can ever be solved by reasoned arguments.

Does anyone really think that a philosophy built on moral relativism, nihilism, selfishness and narcissism can ever be stopped, short of armed resistance?

The Left has already begun the killing.

I'm telling you, they will never willingly back down or give up the hold they have on the West."
_______________________________

Even the Roman grew appalled at the spectacle of mass killing of Christians in the arena as 'entertainment'. That's why the Socialists have adopted the practice of murder isolated from the view of their populations.

Consider the resistance the Buddists, the most peaceful of religions, are putting up against the Communist Chinese in Lhasa. Think of the tyranny that drives these type of people to sacrifice themselves in Tibet and Rangoon.

The left does not give ground and will not stop, ever, until they have the power of life and death over everyone in this nation.

Their 'concern' for the downtrodden is simply a political posture, convenient to assume for the moment. Rather than promote and inspire the 'children' in the public school system, they 'dumb down', indoctrinate and degrade those kids. 48 million killed through there promotion of abortion and infanticide - so far. And how much 'concern' do you think they would show for the sick and aged once they got a grasp of the nation's health care system?

And why do you suppose they want to disarm the population just as the socialists did in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union?

You are right, Baron - turning the other cheek is rapidly becoming a non-option.

The war is who is on
it is in the world in each of us. Who is going to rule, God through Christ or Satan?

TR
I second the ad hominem comment from Jersey48. Colson is indeed an ex-con -- you can read all about it in his biography, "A Life Redeemed." It has nothing to do with the validity of his comments in the above column.

Colson is absolutely right. Without an objective system of values, we end up on what is called a causal slippery slope. From position X1 we slide down to X2, then X3, X4, and so on: positions that in the past would have been considered immoral. Why stop there? Why stop anywhere? Why should infanticide be a problem, if it is found to be expedient in a given situation?

If we weren't designed by God, then we evolved by chance, and we're just random collections of electrons. There is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" if you're just a random collection of electrons.

Thebaron, J-Chavez, and Colson
Thebaron and juniorchavez are both right to an extent. Spreading the Word of God in a more active manner would do much good, but we can't force people to accept Christ. Not all will. We live in the United States - a country where almost every single one of us; Christian, atheist, Jewish, agnostic, whatever, has heard the Gospel. You don't think Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy and all those leftists have heard the Gospel? I bet Stalin heard it. He certainly didn't accept it.

Baron is correct as far as leftists being unreasonable and undefeatable by using logic. You can destroy a liberal in an argument, and he or she will usually just tell you to shut up or leave or cuss you out no matter how kind and civil you are. With the infanticide and abortion, brainwashing in our colleges, and moral degeneration being promoted by the left, tyranny is already growing ever stronger in this nation. Unfortunately, I believe things are going to get horribly worse before any kind of reform happens. Most Americans, and too many conservatives, don't have the guts to do anything until it's too late. I forget who said that all evil needs to gain a foothold is for good men (and women for that matter) to ignore it. But, too many good men and women are ignoring evil, hoping it will just go away someday. It won't.

This Colson article was excellent by the way - I'd like to point out too that all abortion is infanticide techically. Abortion is just the fancy Orwellian liberal term for infanticide for parental convenience.

theBaron
"...Does anyone really think that a philosophy built on moral relativism, nihilism, selfishness and narcissism can ever be stopped, short of armed resistance?"

I hope you are wrong and November should tell the tale. The real scary part is how quickly the supposed "christians" accepted and adapted to torture. This is moral relativism on a massive scale.

Little Hint
When you first read the words "tr is backward" it means you can skip reading that post

johnTaylor
"...If we weren't designed by God, then we evolved by chance, and we're just random collections of electrons. There is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" if you're just a random collection of electrons. "

LMAO You find that scary? Why not liberating? We are part of the universe and the recipient of a wonderful gift - fluke or not. Make of it what you will

tr
You may right, there may not ba a God, but then what if you are wrong? Just something to think about.

Hal Donahue
Yeah Hal, because torturing murderous fanatics so their groups don't kill more innocent people is so immoral... And if you find "no right or wrong" liberating how come you condemn torture?

How come he right largely supports the use of torture? Is it because we hate Arabs? Well no, we don't. Is it because we hate Muslims? Well no, we don't. Is it because we hate innocent people dying? Yes. And to save lives is the only reason torture would be admissible.

Tr is just another example of liberal hate-speech permeating the Internet. The left is more like Nazi's than the ones they hurl the term at.

ACP/tr
"...You may right, there may not ba a God, but then what if you are wrong? Just something to think about. "

This is the silliest argument out there. Who cares? Live your life the best you can. If I must stand before some 'god" I have nothing to be upset about...

landofconfusion
"Yeah Hal, because torturing murderous fanatics so their groups don't kill more innocent people is so immoral... And if you find "no right or wrong" liberating how come you condemn torture? "

Ah see I do have a sense of right and wrong. My biggest complaint is torture is the tool of the weak and the coward - it does not work.

"How come he right largely supports the use of torture? ...And to save lives is the only reason torture would be admissible. "

No dear hypocrite it is not. Torture is never admissable. But thank you so much for proving my point that the fundamentalist conservatives are totally and completely morally bankrupt


tr
You've been pretty busy tonight in various postings. You sound like a pretty angry, self-righteous person. Perhaps you're not, but that's how you come across. On the other hand, Chuck Colson is not a bit self-righteous because he knows his failures better than you do, but also knows forgiveness. He's spent years helping prisoners come out of prison with hope of a future, knowing that they have worth because their are people who believe in them. Not for fame or praise, but because it's the right thing to do. What have you done to help make the world a better place lately?

Hal Donahue
"Ah see I do have a sense of right and wrong. My biggest complaint is torture is the tool of the weak and the coward - it does not work." - Hal Donahue

Why is torture the tool of the weak and the coward? Why??? And it does work - Sure some lie or say what they think their captors want to hear, but it also works sometimes too. If it works just once, it's worth it.

"No dear hypocrite it is not. Torture is never admissable. But thank you so much for proving my point that the fundamentalist conservatives are totally and completely morally bankrupt" - Hal Donahue

Ok let me ask you this: First of all, you're the president. There's a bomb planted in a pre-school someplace in the country, and serveillance cameras caught two men on camera in the school parking lot. One of the men was detained. The other man has the remote detonator someplace, but the police and the military have no idea where hs is, and he left a note saying he'd blow the place up within 3 hours if the United States didn't meet his unreasonable, fanatical demands. Do you torture the suspect and try to get him to give up the location of his partner, or do you just sit around and hope that the fanatic gives up and decides to let the children live and turns himself in?

landofconfusion
Your scenario is never so simple. Let's turn it into a real life one.

You only have the description of the suspect. You round up everyone matching the description, let's say 20 people. Would you torture all 20 people, knowing that only one knows the necessary information and the other 19 are innocent, to get the information you need to protect that pre-school? The other man has the detonator, what would you do? Do you just sit around and do nothing?

tr
welcome back, tr. no matter how much you hate God and curse his name and try to deny His existence, He still loves you and would welcome you with open arms if you ever repented of your sins and turned to Him and accepted His forgiveness.

You have every chance in the world to accept His salvation, up until the day you die and your spirit departs this world. Then it will be too late.

In the meantime, curse Him as you will as much as you want, it will not change His love for you.

I shall pray for you, that your eyes may be opened.

zapdoodat
In that case, you wouldn't torture anyone because you're not sure. It's that simple - You can't do anything because you don't have anything, only 20 people who look like they may match the description.

landofconfusion
you didn't do anything because you're not sure, the bomb went off, and the children are all dead.


Babykillers
Those progressive Dutch. Gotta love'em. What a bunch of pretentious skunks.

zapdoodat
That's tragic, hopefully there isn't a next time and if there is, we will actually have someone to work with instead of 20 people who look like they may be one of the suspects. You can't just apprehend 20 look-alikes and torture all of them out of hopes one might be the terroists, that's common sense. However, if you know someone is a terrorist, and you can use torture to save lives, it's a no brainer to use torture.

Corrie ten Boom
must be spinning in her grave to think that the people in her native land have stooped to the level of Nazi's. She and many other brave Dutch
risked their lives, and suffered mightily when caught to help save Jews from the Camps. Corries sister and father died in the Camps. The Lowlands are truly low these days. Guess that's what happens when a country is controlled by progressives..kill the unborn, then the born, then the teens, the sick and the elderly. It's the old Margaret Sanger eugenics theory, she's the mother of Planned Parenthood and Hitler got his ideas from her.
Years ago when abortion was first legalized the
prolife group I was in would joke that regardless of our religious backgrounds, some day we'd all be behind the same barbed wire. That gallows humor is slowly coming to pass.
I wonder if the expert's who decide for God,
would agree to be euthanized if they got sick?
They're cowards like all progressives, Nah they'd do everything to keep living, cuz they are too superior and valuable to be lost to world because of a chronic disease.

Hal Donahue
I'll accept that you are who you say you are. However, you have defined "torture" to fit your argument, therefore it is false.

The international definition of torture does not make waterboarding torture.

Finally, what do you call partial birth abortion if not torture?

Oh, I see, you will define "human" "life" "alive" and "is" in order to obfuscate the argument.

Finally, a question: is the Huffingtonpost, or whatever it is called paying you to post on this web site? Yes or no, Col.

3wire
Re: Hal

It's called situational ethics - the argument and definitions change to suit the moment. Mistreat a dog and they're the first to squawk but the have no problem with partially birthing a baby and then crushing its skull with a pair of forcepts.

If you look at the history of socialism, of which Hal is definitely an adherent, its practitioners took the methods of torture to new levels of refinement.

The Soviets were so good at breaking a man down that not only would a person confess to and falsely accuse anyone of imaginary crimes, but they'd go before the world cameras in show trials and obediently behave as they were ridiculed into death sentences. Their usual method was simply to work a man to death under the most brutal conditions.

The Chinese/Korean Communists, in applying their psychological methods, were experts as well.

Under any kind of 'torture', Hal himself would squeal like a pig at the first discomfort and give you anything and anyone you want, including his mother.

Doofus
Liberals are the real baby killers of the world. I know how much you get off knowing that suction sound of a kids brain is like sipping a slurpy to you. Burn in h*ll loser!

ssgt
you sound like you are anti-choice. you should educate yourself on the issue. no brains have ever been "sucked out". a pill is taken now.

Anti-Choice?
No conservative is anti-choice. A conservative is (usually) pro-life. Conservatives are all for choice, the contention is not if, but when. The choice needs to be made before risking a pregnancy, not afterwards.

Liberals seem to think we are all animals, controlled by carnal desires and urges, rather than by intelligence and self-control. But we are not animals. We have the ability to think, to make choices. My dog has no choice: he smells a female in heat and has to follow his instincts. Human being are better than that; we can control our urges, we are made in God's image, with the ability to think and to reason.

tr

"no brains have ever been "sucked out"."

you can't read but here some diagrams showing the procedure. For the literate among you liberals there are additional words of explanation.

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html

Khomar: Re 8:16PM .... Well said!

Excellent!

BirdmanII: Unfortunately for tr

his brains have been pickled or fried.. so he couldn't tell the difference.



Anne

And he is represntative of the Liberals' expert.

Sadly and painfully, Colson is right.

We're becoming just like the movie, "Lord Of The Flies."


3wire
"The international definition of torture does not make waterboarding torture. "

This is a simple lie. It is included and we prosecuted people for it. You sound like Bill Clinton changing the definition of sex

"Finally, what do you call partial birth abortion if not torture? "

Very, very seldom necessary and never to be done lightly or without review

"Oh, I see, you will define "human" "life" "alive" and "is" in order to obfuscate the argument."

See here you critters go making strawman arguments to beat up

"Finally, a question: is the Huffingtonpost, or whatever it is called paying you to post on this web site? Yes or no, Col. "

No. I do it to prevent you folks from corrupting innocent or unsuspecting minds

Tom the Tinker
"... The choice needs to be made before risking a pregnancy, not afterwards. "

and for those unable to make a choice?



Tom writes: "Human being are better than

that; we can control our urges, we are made in God's image, with the ability to think and to reason."

Good point.. The problem is, most libs (ie halD as the poster boy) can't comprehend it.

They don't seem to think that we can "control our urges." Possibly because they're more like your dog.





Life
"and for those unable to make a choice?"

That is an unfortunate case, indeed. But why should abortion be the anwer, or even a choice? Regardless of how the life came to be, it is a human life. (whether zygote, fetus, infant, toddler, child, teenager, adult, retiree; the life is a human life, and therefore sacred)


halD writes: "and for those unable to

make a choice?"

Aaahhh yes, one of halD's favorite things... assuming that people are unable to make choices FOR THEMSELVES. He just loves that, and thinks that big Nanny gov't. should be in charge of us.


Or maybe halD would like to be in charge of making choices for those HE thinks are unable to make choices for themselves...


Now there's a nightmare!



Hal Donahue

Quoting Tom the Tinker, "... The choice needs to be made before risking a pregnancy, not afterwards," Hal says,

"...and for those unable to make a choice?"


Those unable to make choices must be slaves. Why are they unable to make choices in your world, Hal? Are they slaves? In addition to abortion, I oppose slavery too. Do you oppose slavery?

wobbie, how about refraining from

posting until you have something INTELLIGENT and PERTINENT to say...

And, btw, "Pertinent" means "pertaining or relating directly and significantly to the matter at hand."

That should keep you off the threads for... oh say... FOREVER! :-)






Robert
"The far left is incapable of recognizing that "choice" starts at the moment of intimacy. Eschewing the canards of forced intimacy which are law enforcement issues...."

The latest how about the 12 year old very mentally challenged girl impregnated by her 13 year old not much better off brother. A matter for law enforcement? Yes, maybe but the helpless girl is still pregnant...

"The far right however seems incapable of recognizing that they have failed miserably to convince the vast majority of Americans that "choice" ends at conception....but they are not convinced that "conception makes a human" and hence they are ready by large numbers to allow "choice" to go to the end fo the second term."

and many will say why shouldn't it

"...we all have choices...the question is not individual but when those choices sum to "law" and policy"

worldwide the lucky have choices not everyone and I suspect you realise that or if they have choices they are very limited.




wobbie & halD: Blah, blah, blah....

Neither of you has posted anything intelligent or coherent that anyone can remember....

Please, have the courtesy to wait until you actually have something that is both intelligent and pertinent that you can post coherently.


Hal

"The latest how about the 12 year old very mentally challenged girl impregnated by her 13 year old not much better off brother. A matter for law enforcement? Yes, maybe but the helpless girl is still pregnant..."

How many very mentally challenged 12 year old girls are impregnated by their 13 year brothers? How many abortions have been performed to date? What tiny fractional percentage of the whole does your example constitute?



"and many will say why shouldn't it (Americans allowing "choice" to go to the end of the second term)?"

If many say this and many say that, isn't that an argument for majority rule? Society makes rules concerning individual choices all the time. Society says murder is wrong whether some disagree or not. Society says theft is wrong whether some disagree or not. Why can society not make the ruling that the killing of the unborn is wrong whether some disagree or not?



"worldwide the lucky have choices not everyone and I suspect you realise that or if they have choices they are very limited."

Go back and answer my post of 11:59. I really would like your interpretation of 'choice'.

Groningen Protocol needs to be expanded
The Groningen Protocol does not go far enough. I believe in the Netherlands there is a time limit that puts a cap on when the child can be put down.

There are many that believe the choice should be in the hands of the parents. It is a parental right to determine if your children should live or be put down. I read that there is an organization to take back parental rights. Their platform is that any child up to 24 months can be put down with parental consent.

This is as it should be. Raising children is hard work. If the parent wants to opt out that should be their choice.

Robert
"First I tend to "not listen to" the examples of 13 year old raped by so and so or this and that...because they are not the norm and policy and politics should not be based on the exception but the rule.

True but this black and white all or nothing "morals" of the right does not work and why the Bush regime has collapsed in such a horrific fashion. The 13 yr old is an example like they use. You know as well as I do there are a million stories in the naked city and few are alike. That is why we need a fair and compassionate legal and social service system. These all or nothing fanatics on bothsides do the people, all of us, a major disservice

"Second...abortion is not an easy question nor does it field easy answer. The issue is not "slavery" really it is almost the difference between manslaughter and justifiable homicde...if it is any real similarity at all."

Only if you agree a fertilized egg is the same as a human. I do not. God herself has about 20% (not sure of exact percent) of pregnancies end in spontanious abortions (miscarrages)

"... We all or at least to a majority have to agree on those...but we need to think those out absent the whirlwinds of "reverends" preaching fire and brimstone and the "free choices" group pawning responsibilities onto society for individual behavior."

Amen to that

"...Meanwhile the national economic system from where I sit seems to be "dominoing" quite nicely.

That concerns me."

I am glad I went to Euros two years ago. We could not get away with spending and printing money like we were


Robert - thanx for answering for Hal
But does he really need you to interpret for him?


However, you, Robert, said, "third term abortions are more or less "history"...with broad public support."

I am not sure what you meant. Is there broad public support for abortion or is there broad public support for an end to 3rd term abortions?


"go figure"

Yeah, I am still trying to figure what you mean

Robert
"...it is all a personal choice that does not lend itself to "the roar of the crowd" or to the ethics of a nation but rather to a person. And good people can differ on this and differ honorably."

I agree in those terms

"No decision in life particularly that big is...they all have consequences and part of making the decision on a personal level...is being prepared to deal with them. "

and being an adult.. No decision is without consequences

"...as a society all we can do is come to some majority opinion based on The Constitution of what limits we put on individual choices, for the good of society. "

back at compromise again and again

"...the victim in all crimes is society because we are the ones which set the limits on it...that is the basis for all criminal prosecutions and laws. That is why it is "The people VRS...." He might not like the law then argue for it to be changed."

true and that happens more and more but also laws die away from lack of enforcement




Birdman II
"Is there broad public support for abortion or is there broad public support for an end to 3rd term abortions?"


I think is what he meant. I think that within limits that law could be passed if a similar law allowed abortion up to that point with restrictions. That would greatly reduce abortions I suspect

Birdman II: It's a futile exercise to

even TRY to make sense with halD!!

He is completely incapable of being reasonable, or seeing anyone's point (other than his own vapid point of view) even if you go to great and detailed extremes to explain it to him.

He's nothing more than a shallow SOCIALIST who wants the state to take care of us... and ignore our God given and Constitutionally guaranteed right to make decisions about our own lives, and those of our children.





I have never heard it put this way...

Damon writes: "I believe in the Netherlands there is a time limit that puts a cap on when the child can be put down."
-----------------------------

I'll make sure to ask my liberal buddies if the phrase "Put Down" sounds acceptable to them.


Anne
It isn't me who wants to be in our bedrooms and bodies. I come from a conservative people; we don't want abortion and we are not real "gay friendly" but we will tolerate them far more than the government coming into our homes and bodies. That is what you folks demand and worse yet you demand it in the name of a god that seems FAR from Christian

Anne
I'm jumping in again,unasked....There are two or three posters here whose mindset is of such it is no use trying to reason with them.They do not accept anything other than their own warped thinking process.

Anyone who will advocate abortion,will eventually advocate euthanasia.Lacking a conscience,human life means nothing to them,just an inconvienence.A totalitarian government has no use for the unuseful.I believe some people long for that kind of government....Also,waterboarding is torture,abortion is not.What kind of reasoning is that? Reading some peoples' dangerous views about things,I might could see how it might be good to have "selective" abortions.......NOT !!!!


Euthanasia is coming
As the younger generation, raised on selfishness, gains power, and as the baby boomers age, the elderly will be killed, and this practice will be justified by citing the expense of keeping them alive. First to go will be those with advanced Alzheimer's, then less severe conditions, and finally the merely unproductive. Anybody who can't see this coming has his head in the sand.

Rowly/Anne
"...Anyone who will advocate abortion,will eventually advocate euthanasia.Lacking a conscience,human life means nothing to them,just an inconvienence."

Conscience???? Oh ok you get the call on conscience??? Based on what? You folks defend torture, poor healthcare, starting wars and capital punishment and say you have a conscience??? Get that timber out of your eye first

"A totalitarian government has no use for the unuseful.I believe some people long for that kind of government...."

I thank you for that "totalitarian government" term. It is exactly what you folks want. you decide what is "right" and get to punish the "wrong" doers

"Also,waterboarding is torture,abortion is not."

You are so confused torture has nothing to do with it and if you want to compare the correct comparison is capital punishment.



Hal
Hal,baby,you would not recognize "conscience" if it hit you square between the eyes!!!

Rowly
"Hal,baby,you would not recognize "conscience" if it hit you square between the eyes!!! "

Not that tepid, dried up one you seem to have dear

TR, HalDonahue
"a random collection of electrons? did you get your science education at church or the basement of your home?"
Neither --- in a public high school. I have a bachelor's degree in software development (B.C.Sc, 1986, Carleton University) but was not required to take experimental sciences as part of it. Just software theory and mathematics.
For more on the ramifications of being a random collection etc., you can check out How Should We Then Live? by Francis Schaeffer.

"You find that scary? Why not liberating? We are part of the universe and the recipient of a wonderful gift - fluke or not. Make of it what you will."
No, not scary, because I don't believe it. I would find it overwhelmingly depressing if I did, though. I don't want to be meaningless, but it doesn't get much more meaningless than being a random collection of electrons ... please have a look at the book I recommended to TR above.

Hal
Mine is tepid,because it is clear.Yours may be also.Whose to know? It is so much easier,I suppose not to believe in "life after death".That when you die, that is the end.If you don't believe you will answer to God in another time and place,then you don't worry about a conscience.There is merit to that,I suppose...on earth.

It is better for me to believe that I won't have to answer to God in that place,because I have already answered to Him.He is pleased with me.Of course a smart man like you does not even believe in "that place".

I don't have the fancy words you have and I CERTAINLY don't have the extensive resume you say you have,but I think you have a very empty life.You depend only on yourself and even though you think highly of yourself,you are a mere mortal and can do only so much.

I say this to say..in many ways that count..I am so much smarter than you.


Rowly: You have all the words you need!
And again, you make excellent points..

Let me share with you something a brilliant Jesuit priest/professor shared with my daughter at a very well respected all women's Catholic college, which is...

"Think like a Jesuit...'Work as though it all depends on you, and pray as though it all depends on God.'"

Even though she graduated Magna Cu* Laude, Phi Beta Kappa, and Who's Who, with two majors and two minors, she still claims this was the best part of her education.




Rowly
"It is so much easier,I suppose not to believe in "life after death".That when you die, that is the end."

I have no clue if there is life after death but I live my life so it makes no difference.

"If you don't believe you will answer to God in another time and place,then you don't worry about a conscience.There is merit to that,I suppose...on earth."

Well is your conscience damaged? How can you consider yourself "moral" and support an immoral leader and regime? Would Jesus really use or approve of torture? I know the religious of the 16 hundreds said yes during the inquisition and "holy wars" and witchunts. Are you like them?

"It is better for me to believe that I won't have to answer to God in that place,because I have already answered to Him."

It is out of my hands at that point so be it

"...but I think you have a very empty life.You depend only on yourself and even though you think highly of yourself,you are a mere mortal and can do only so much."

Actually you are very wrong. I have been incredibly lucky. I am surrounded by family and friends most of which are extremely happy and doing well. I treasure every moment. No man is an island....


johnTaylor
"No, not scary, because I don't believe it. I would find it overwhelmingly depressing if I did, though. I don't want to be meaningless, but it doesn't get much more meaningless than being a random collection of electrons ... "

Why you have life and meaning comes as it always has from family, friends and community? Why worry about that which you cannot control

Hal
Everything always goes back to George,doesn't it? That "hate George syndrome".When you have no answer,you throw some ancient history ,don't you?I believe I said my conscience was clear.

You keep talking about torture,but you talk only of the torture you lay at the feet of "the hated G.Bush".Whether you think so or not,abortion is torture to the innocent.Do you abhor that?How can you support a party who supports abortion,partial birth abortion and other atrocities?

Rowly
"Everything always goes back to George,doesn't it? That "hate George syndrome".When you have no answer,you throw some ancient history ,don't you?I believe I said my conscience was clear."

I am saying your conscience should not be clear you should be in sackcloth and covered with ashes.. instead you try and change the subject.

"...Whether you think so or not,abortion is torture to the innocent.Do you abhor that?How can you support a party who supports abortion,partial birth abortion and other atrocities? "

I do not see them as "atrocities" at all. Why do you help cause abortions by stopping education programs and birthcontrol funding? But even if it was "torture" does that make your support for torture OK???? You are no Christian....

Hal
I have often wondered why so many of these posters hold such disdain for you,since I had an ongoing civil dialog with you a few weeks ago.

I do understand now.When you have no answer,you do sarcasm.You are beyond any semblance of rationality.You never make sense of anything and accuse the other person of changing the subject.You are pitiful.I am truly sorry for anyone so void of any feeling for anyone and anything.

You do not bother me with your snide remarks.It is what I expect from an atheistic piece of trash.You are some piece of work, judging me. I will look forward to all the putdowns from now forward.You deserve them...every one.

Rowly
"You do not bother me with your snide remarks.It is what I expect from an atheistic piece of trash.You are some piece of work, judging me. I will look forward to all the putdowns from now forward.You deserve them...every one."

YOur hypocracy knows no bounds? but this is a valid question and think about your answer

"I do not see them as "atrocities" at all. Why do you help cause abortions by stopping education programs and birthcontrol funding? But even if it was "torture" does that make your support for torture OK????"

I think we both know that answer

Good nite and be well


Hal Donahue
You responded for Robert to my query, March, 16, 2008 1:47 PM

Birdman, "Is there broad public support for abortion or is there broad public support for an end to 3rd term abortions?"

You, "I think is what he meant. I think that within limits that law could be passed if a similar law allowed abortion up to that point with restrictions. That would greatly reduce abortions I suspect"


What is it with you 2? He answers for you and you answer for him. Can't you answer for yourself? And can't He do likewise?

If I waanted his take on your opinion, I would have asked him. I did not. I asked you. And apparently, you cannot think for your self.

And on the other side of the street, Robert, can't you come up with a coherent response of your own?

Hal, answer, in your own words, my last question to you.

Robert, answer, in your own words, my last post to you.

Can neither one of you speak for yourself?

Hal
What do you mean .."your hypocrisy knows no bounds?" Is that a question? If so,I have no idea what you are asking. If it is a statement,I would say you are the hypocrit for talking about torture,when it is just G.Bush's "so-called torture" that you deem torture.

I do not help "cause abortions".My party does not support abortion in any form.Yours does.You do,personally.It is the litmus test for EVERY Democrat who runs,they MUST support abortion.It is not the lack of money that causes abortion.It is the lack of morals caused by your liberal friends.Please don't throw in the "one in a million" five year old who was raped by some obscure uncle.That one is getting stale.

You are what you are.You believe what you believe.Maybe one day you,too, will see the light and realize the carnage the liberals have caused.I have a feeling you are not a lost cause,just a mixed up one.You still have time.

Good Night and get RIGHT.


Robert

I am SO glad to hear that you can speak for your self. I was beginning to wonder.

So, your position is, "third term abortions are more or less "history"...with broad public support."

I'm still not sure, is that 'more' or is it 'less'?

Your clarification is, "I dont think that there is any support for reinstating third term abortions".

Now then, if 3rd trimester abortions are NOT now receiving public support but were publically supported previously, then apparently the 'Christian Right' IS currently having an effect on the abortion issue according to your logic in that our position has removed/is removing abortion from the 3rd trimester. But doesn't that contradict your statement, "the problem for the "Christian right" Is that it cannot move past that"?

From whence comes the support to reduce abortions in any manner if not from the 'Christian Right'? Perhaps with more information being pushed into the public arena from the 'Christian Right' abortions can be further reduced from not only the 3rd but also from the 2nd trimester.

And we have you and Hal to thank for the opportunity to spread the word in the face of your logic.

Keep up the good work. You and your logic are our best assets in this fight.

Robert

People, on the left, try so hard to absolve each and every person of any responsibility for their personal choices. Life does not work that way. When a person chooses a course of action he must be prepared to deal with consequences of that action. Society must instill that sense of responsibility in the young people. So far society is failing in that department.

You give the impression that you fly military planes. If you choose to fly dead level without course adjustment thru mountainous terrain, chances are you actions will result in a head-on meeting with the side of a mountain. That would be your consequence. Being in the military, you know that if you point a loaded weapon at a man and pull the trigger, the consequences of your choice of actions is a hole in the other person. That would a consequence.

If a woman chooses to play hide the weenie with any/every stranger she meets at the local pub, chances are that she will conceive a human within her. And that is her consequence.

Now then on to, "yet you dont give a flip when it is born". You have NO idea what I do to assist single mothers. Just because you do nothing does not mean that I do nothing. Go look into the mirror and see your own selfishness. You refuse to get involved. You refuse to get your hands dirty. You remind me of the neighborhood in NY 20-30 years ago, wherein a woman was attacked, left bleeding on the sidewalk, and then the killer returned to finish the job; and the neighbors, thru out her screams, did nothing.

Because you really have no idea what you are talking about, you keep trying to expand the discussion into other areas that are meaningless to this discussion. I really do not give a ratsazz about your red herrings. This column and your past statements herein deal with a "Deadly Trend" of killing off children. You start to lose the argument here and try to expand into "Bush this and Bush that".

Robert

When are you going to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the pain and heartbreak your attitude concerning abortion is causing nation-wide. Talk to a woman who has had an abortion and lives to regret that decision because the people the likes of you ignored her needs at that time but instead 'eliminated' the problem. As long as people like you exist telling women about sexual freedom, people like me will be telling women about the ensuing slavery and degradation.

Do you really remove yourself from aftermath of abortion and close your ears to women who have gone thru abortion? Have you never heard one of these women tell of her depression because of her choice and the consequences that ensued?

Robert
"... it is good Constitutional law.

Sorry"



I have to agree... you are sorry!!!

Roe v Wade is NOT Constitutional Law. Is Fiat Law handed down by elitist judges who do not understand the concept of The Constitution. It was handed down by judges who violated their position as outlined in The Constitution.

You, being in the military, must have taken an oath to defend the Constitution and country from all enemies. Yet, you don't seem to know what the Constitution says concerning who makes law and who enforces those laws.

Robert

Not usre what you mean 'Bush v Gore' but does it involved a dead person? Does it involve the highest court of the land approving the dismembering of a living being, or the poisoning of another for the sole intention of giving a 3rd individual a pass?

Roe v Wade was not voted on by the House and not voted on by the Senate. It was not signed into law by the Chief Executive Officer of the country. It is NOT good Constitutional law because it is not even Constitutional.


"this is where I fell off the "Right to life" bandwagon. I know couples who have had abortions...mostly for "rape"...and they are quite comfortable with it."

And apparently you landed on your head. When does the right to life begin? Is a 10 y.o. more human than a 5 y.o.? Is a day old infant more human than another 1/2 way out of the birth canal, or only hours from birth? You reject the thought life begins at conception because you reject the thought that people must be responsible for their actions.

That responsibility must be taught from an early age. You seems to have missed that lesson. You take part in every abortion you sanction. I sanction no abortion because it is totally the wrong message that we are teaching to our children (at least to those we allow to live).

Why is it that if you put a gun to the head of a pregnant woman and pull the trigger, you can found guilty of a double homicide? Is the court holding you responsible for the death of the child in the womb?

Then why can a woman kill that very same child in the womb and get a pass? This is the confusion you spread.

Birdman: You're wasting your time with

wobbie...

He knows NOT of what he rambles! He hasn't posted an intelligent, pertinent, or coherent comment in a very long time... if EVER!

And if you notice, his posts are letting more and more incoherent as time goes on.

I'm afraid we're watching wobbie's mental deterioration right here...



Birdman 11
Birdman,I have never lived around a real demented person.I may get that way myself one day,though,I hope not.

As a new "poster",I have learned how to deal with demented people.It is useless to try to reason with an unreasonal person.They just keep repeating the same things over and over.

Any subject with some of these demented "posters" is, everything they perceive wrong,they lay at the feet of George Bush.What a convenient scapegoat."Hate Bush syndrome"is causing some normally sane people to lose it.Sad.

The previous "regime"is held up as Utopia.Everything was perfect,because we had a liberal,serial molester,traitor,etc.for our leader.Exactly what demented liberals love and respect.What a sad memory to look back on.

Well, if nothing else...
Robert has stifled himself.

Groningen Protocol
THIS IS SCARY!!!! If we aren't careful and thoughtful, our society will begin it's decline. Thank you for the article!
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