Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, July 13, 2006
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
An immigration compromise
by Chuck Colson
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


By the looks of things, it seems that compromise on the contentious issue of immigration is unlikely, if not impossible. The House’s position has been hard-line: We have to stop illegal immigration before we even consider ways we could process illegal immigrants into America properly. Some members have even demanded the wholesale deportation of all illegal immigrants, which would virtually stop the American economy in its tracks.

The Senate has taken what’s regarded as a more moderate approach: securing the borders and establishing a guest-worker program so that people who have been here for a while can establish their residence. President Bush’s position on the debate has been, in my opinion, comprehensive and responsible.

Yet here we are in July, and instead of ironing out their differences, the House and the Senate are holding dueling hearings across the country.

While getting agreement is hard to imagine, the basis for a good compromise exists. It addresses the important issue of border security while also offering a humane way of dealing with illegal immigrants already living in the United States. It even has a role for Christians who, after all, are commanded to care for the strangers in our midst.

The author of this compromise is Representative Mike Pence (R) of Indiana. I have known Pence for several years and regard him as one of the brightest young stars in the House. He is a serious Christian who is committed to integrating faith and public service.

What Pence is proposing is a two-step process. The first step is to secure the borders. His proposal would include the enforcement measures passed by the House last December.

Once the Secretary of Homeland Security certifies that the borders have been secured, illegal aliens will become eligible to apply for guest-worker visas. Pence’s proposal requires them to leave the country and apply for these visas at what he calls "Ellis Island Centers."

These visas entitle them to work in the United States for six years. After the six years, the worker “must decide whether to return home or seek citizenship. But he will do so under the normal rules and regulations of our naturalization laws.”

Pence wants Christians involved in the process and is proposing some faith-based programs so the churches can help people with their paperwork, can teach them English, and integrate them into the communities.

I think that his plan, which has gained interest in the White House and support on both sides of the Capitol, provides the basis of a good compromise. I would modify his requirement that people leave the country to apply for guest-worker visas—I think that could be done in federal facilities around the country and save money and time. And the criteria for certifying border security must be objective and reasonable. But these things can be accomplished.

The point is that this is a good proposal that gets us out of the deadlock and promotes security and respect for the law in a humane and workable fashion. And it addresses the issues of workers without demonizing them.

I hope you will get behind Pence’s proposal and call your senators and congressman. Given the contentious quality of the immigration debate, what is needed is support for people like Mike Pence, for whom faith and public service go hand-in-hand.

Take action:
Please call your congressman and senators and urge them to vote for the Pence Plan: No Amnesty Immigration Reform. Call 202-224-3121. You can also reach your two senators and congressman directly through Townhall.com.


For Further Reading and Information:

Learn more about the Pence Plan: No Amnesty Immigration Reform. Read Rep. Pence’s speech, "Renewing the American Dream: The Real Rational Middle Ground on Immigration Reform."

Mike Pence, "Amnesty Isn't the Answer," USA Today, 11 July 2006, 12A.

Read a transcript of Congressman Pence’s NPR interview on immigration.

See Congressman Pence’s blog for more information on immigration.

Warren Smith, "My Dirty Little Secret," Charlotte World, 11 July 2006.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Chuck Colson's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
I like the 2 step approach
We are not going to deport 12 million people but we need to make sure the borders and ports are secure first. That unifies 85% of the American public. I would be careful about allowing full citizenship except for honorable military service or some other patriotic service but would propose a resident worker program allowing their children born here to be citizens. If they want to be citizens they have to go home and get in line. They get to stay in the greatest country in the history of earth, they will no longer be taken advantage of by employers and get all the benefits of citizenship except voting and bringing unlimited numbers of others in with them. And I would set up the centers in the US to process them. English proficiency is a must. Because of 50,000,000 abortions we need these people for our society.

Pence Plan won't work
I admire Chuck Colson and his work in politics and ministry, but his description of the Pence Plan is incomplete.

Another columnist, Phyllis Schlafly, wrote an article for Townhall.com that analyzes the Pence Plan in detail and points out the gaping holes.

The article is:

Phyllis Schaffly, Townhall, June 26, 2006

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/PhyllisSchlafly/2006/06/26/hard_to_make_sense_of_pence_guest-worker_plan

***
Also someone from Townhall should interview Tom Tancredo, the Congressman from Colorado, who is the leader of the House of Representatives version of the immigration bill knows as "Enforcement First". Tom Tancredo has a new book titled, "In Mortal Danger: The Battle for America's Border and Security". I think that Townhall.com should have a book review of "In Mortal Danger" or have an talk radio interview with Tom Tancredo. At least we will hear the arguments for the "Enforcement First" side of the immigration debate.

If Townhall.com has already interviewed Tom Tancredo, please let me know where I can find it.

Thanks,
Jacob from MA

The Religious Left Speaks
Chuck Colson and the religious left speak again. Colson, the Catholic hierarchy, and leftist politicians of all stripes like to define compassion as giving away society's and hence other people's money, time, and resources as compassion. It's amazing how generous you can be when giving away other people's assets. Conservatives, on the other hand, define compassion as giving of oneself. Mr. Colson you and like-minded politicians don't have the right to simply give away a valuable and honored asset such as U.S. citizenship for nothing to people that have broken the law(s) because it makes you feel compassionate. You do not have the right to obligate American citizens to pick up the tab for the entitlements and social services that this flood of poor illegals will require once they are given legal residence and then later citizenship. If you are feeling the need to be compassionate, then why don't you run into Mexico and run a health clinic or send your next paycheck or royalty check to a charitable organization fighting poverty in Mexico. Just don't obligate me through the force of the Federal government to provide refuge and support to the impoverished of the world by giving them legal status in this country and a seat at the buffet of social welfare services table of goodies. I know that the Religious Left salivates at the prospect of more butts in the pews of their churches on Sunday, but there are actually laws and procedures that have to be followed in this country.

Yet one more Townhall contributor trying to promote the Pence Plan. This is amazing! What really gets me about this Pence Plan (among many many things) is that Pence and his cronies have the gall to call it a no amnesty plan, while at the same time rightfully conceding that the Senate plan is indeed an amnesty plan. Please tell me how this is possible. The Pence Plan clearly allows illegals to stay in this country (after a one week vacation and siesta in the homeland) and it provides a clear "path to citizenship". How can you say that the Pence Plan is not amnesty while conceding the Senate bill is amnesty?!?

PROPOSED IMMIGRATION POLICY
SIMPLIFIED IMMIGRATION POLICY FOR AMERICA
The following will be implemented, beginning on the date of passage of Bill #1USA:

1. Station 20,000 military troops on the southern border of the United States with Mexico. If necessary, remove troops from Western Europe, South Korea or any other non-critical area of the world to accomplish this. Troops must be in place no later than one month after passage of Bill #1USA. Once all troops are in place, immediately stop all illegal entry into the United States and begin construction of a combination of actual and virtual fencing to allow for the eventual reduction of manpower necessary to prevent illegal entry. Immediately after troops are stationed at the border, begin training border agents to replace the military troops. Border agents will replace all military troops within two years.
2. Give all illegals presently in the United States no more than six months to register at an INS office. There they will be photographed, finger-printed and undergo a criminal background check.
a. If they pass the criminal background check and provide proof of employment in the United States, they will be issued a tamper-proof identification card and a two-year work visa.
b. If they fail the criminal background check or do not provide proof of employment in the United States, they will be immediately deported to their native country.
3. After six months, anyone, except an American citizen, not having a tamper-proof identification card and a work visa will be detained, photographed, finger-printed and deported to their native country. No exceptions.
a. Any deported illegal re-entering the United States will be sent to federal prison for a mandatory term of two years with no chance of parole. That term will be doubled each time the illegal re-enters the United States.
4. After six months, any employer who hires anyone, except an American citizen, not having a tamper-proof identification card and a work visa will be fined $5,000 per day per illegal employee. Repeated employer violators will be subject to mandatory criminal penalties, including prison.
5. All American citizens will be issued a tamper-proof identification card within two years of passage of Bill #1USA.
6. Pass a law or a constitutional amendment, if necessary, to prevent children of illegals from automatically becoming citizens if they are born in the United States.
7. When work visas expire, non-citizens must return to their native country.
8. If during the term of a two-year work visa, any non-citizen not convicted of any crime, who provides proof of employment awaiting him in the United States, may apply for permission to re-enter the United States on a new two-year work visa. Yearly quotas on the number of work visas issued will be set by the Congress of the United States.
9. Non-citizens will not be allowed to apply for American citizenship if they are currently in the United States illegally, without first returning to their native country and re-entering the United States legally.
10. Anyone outside the United States can apply for a two-year work visa. Visas may be issued if applicant passes a
criminal background check, provides proof of employment awaiting him in the United States, falls within quota limits
set by Congress and meets other requirements yet to be determined.
11. Any non-citizen who works in the United States will pay all taxes and fees that are currently being paid by citizens of
the United States except social security taxes. He will not be eligible to collect any social security benefits based on his
employment income as a non-citizen.
12. Non-citizens will obey all federal, state and local laws and regulations while in this country. Any non-citizen who is
convicted of one felony or two or more misdemeanors will be deported to his native country and will not be allowed
future entry into the United States.
13. All government documents, including ballots, shall be printed in English only. Non-citizens cannot apply for citizenship
without first passing a standardized test verifying their ability to speak, read and write English.
14. Only citizens of the United States who have never been convicted of a felony are eligible to vote. Before voting, all
eligible citizens must present their national ID card for identification.
15. Non-citizens will not be given any special benefits or privileges not available to American citizens.



Colson:
If you want to keep trying to redeem yourself for Watergate, do it on your own dime, not mine, you fool.

You want to be a missionary to the Mexicans? Hie yourself on down south of the border.

I have to live with this mess here in LA, where I feel like a second-class citizen living in a third world country.

Shut down the damned border. Deport any illegals caught for anything, even a speeding ticket, and send their ankle-biters with them. If the biters are citizens due to the misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, they can come back when they're adults (unless we can manage to get a reinterpretation of that amendment by SCOTUS or further amendment).

Imprison the executives/proprietors/owners of any business that hires illegal aliens, and fine the companies heavily.

Fence off the border, and patrol it with armor and helicopter gunships.

And get some REAL conservative writers here on Townhall, as opposed to the Colsons of the world.

immigration
The first step is to secure the border. We need to get control of this situation. Then we give the illegals three months to leave voluntarily. During that three months we come up with a way to deal with the illegals in this country. i believe most will leave voluntarily. This could defuse this whole situation. We are doing a grave disservice to these people by allowing them to live here: This relieves any pressure on the Mexican government to reform its policies and clamp down on corruption and favoritism in their government. Mexico is rich in resources and possibilities. It is shameful to allow these people to come here and relieve them and their government of the responsibility of reforming their own country. It would be true compassion to put pressure on the Mexican government. The references to the Bible leave out an important detail. Israel was invited to come to Egypt by the Pharoah of Joseph's time. It was a different Pharoah that oppressed Israel.

Another Polititical snow job
Calling something "Ellis island centers" does not make it so. It is like the hen guarding the chicken coop.
I'm tired of hearing our acconomy would collapse
When all of our young men went to war in WW2 it did not and it won't now.
Instead of listening to politicans, who are trying to sell us out, listen to the economists who work with figures, they say the past says something different.

It's Not Immigration!
Who said mass migrations of people are ok. Yes, practically speaking it is silly to deport all the aliens. Of course we should be kind to all .. but we should compel them to obey our laws. The Bible does not say that aliens who break the prevailing laws are welcome the way that others are. In biblical Israel, they would be treated with kindness, but they would be expected to obey the laws of the land without exception. America isn't biblical Israel, it is a European Christian society that has become like the tower of Babel, a boiling cauldron of all races of people awaiting a defining event to explode it. Mr Colson worries that the economy would fall flat. Yes, we are addicted to the immoral drug of cheap, illegal labor. What really caused the downfall of law and order in America? Serious Jews and Christians know ... it is the increasing departure of God's favor, the release of incremental judgement on an apostate people.

NO!...REJECT Pence's plan
The 'media' continues to try to sway public opinion.

They along with the cowards in Washington, DC are going to learn in November, and again in '08 just what the voting public wants done on this and other issues (ie., out of control spending).

The majority of VOTERS who do not participate in polls, hearings, etc., but live with the REALITY daily of what illegal immigration has done to our communites and our country, will VOTE in upcoming elections to express their OUTRAGE. EVERYONE I talk to daily (private citizens & small business owners), or communicate with online (multiple forums), are AGAINST what the senate has done/tried to do and are AGAINST the Pence plan.

They are FED-UP with waiting on our government to do the right thing, and will now use the power of the vote to retake our 'government of the People'.

ALL House members and a third of the senate are up for re-election in November. And about another third of the senate in '08, besides the presidential election. NOW is the time to make a difference in the direction our country is headed. It no longer makes a difference what party you vote for (the lines have become blurred), just make sure the candidate reflects your personal political opinion.

Just GET OUT AND VOTE IN NOVEMBER, AND IN '08!

WE can turn things around.



Immigration compromise
There is at the least two things wrong with Mr. Pences immigration compromise. 1. The illegal must go to some "Ellis Island Center" to register.
This would amount to another government bureacractic center set up most likely in regional locations difficult to get to, expensive for the illegal, and very expensive for American tax dollars as Spanish speaking staffers wait for the flood of people supposedly on the way.

2. After 6 years of being a registered guest worker, the immigrant then must return home, or seek citizenship. Do you realy think that the majoriy will seek citizenship when they must do it according to the rules and get in line for another long wait? Or, voluntarily return home?




Immigration
Let the free market control immigration. Let illegals buy their way in.

First, each illegal must pay a fine for being here illegally, perhaps on the order of $1000 to $5000 for every year they were illegally in the country. Only then should they have a chance to buy a guest worker permit.
Auction off the permits in batches of 10,000, the highest bids get the applications.
Since illegals pay up to $50,000 to be smuggled into the US, requiring them to pay for the privilege of staying is reasonable.
After 6 legal years in the US guest workers may apply for citizenship through the regular process, return to their home country, or buy a new guest worker permit.

WRONG AGAIN, AS USUAL
So, Mr Colson, you are coming out of the closet and showing us the wide "blue" stripe running down your back. Congratulations, honesty with yourself is the first step toward a cure for your illness.

Why is it that liberals, and most politicians, cannot, or will not, own up to the fact that any immigration plan that allows illegal immigrants to remain in this country is an amnesty plan? Why do they keep pushing the idea that we cannot afford to deport the 12 million or so illegals already here when history and the facts prove them to be wrong? Why don't you idiot facists try reading books instead of burning them?

President Eisenhower proved you wrong in the early 1950's. His administration started a roundup of illegal immigrants with less than 1100 border patrol agents, 1/10th the number of agents we have today, in the four borderstates and Colorado. Within 6 months an estimated 3 million illegals got the hell out of Dodge because they knew that if they were caught they would be fingerprinted, photographed and deported, never to be allowed in this country again. And they were not just let go at the border, they were shipped far into the interior of Mexico by train and bus.

The point being: Border patrol agents only arrested about 6000 people. The rest of the illegal community, approximately 3 million, went home on their own so as not to jeopardize their chances of returning to this country at a later date. We wouldn't have to "roundup" more than a 100,000 or so and deport them, the rest would leave on their own. Remember, we are not going to stop anyone trying to leave this country, in fact lets make it easy for them, only those trying to come in without following the rules.

And, if you dig a little deeper you will see that the economy in the 1950's was booming, going through the fastest economic growth in the history of our nation up to that point. Lay off the "hurt the economy" crap. That dog just don't hunt.









Pence compromise
I would suggest that compromise on immigration as advocated by Mr. Colsou is no more the answer to a serious problem than what compromise has done to the churchs of America, or world wide for that matter.
All it has accomplised is the weakening of both the U S and the Christian faith.
It is not the answer!!!

Children of illegal aliens, NOT citizens
BrianR --- Regarding your comments on Chuck Colson article 14 July 2006, referring to so-called “anchor baby” situation of illegal immigrants: Yes, this is a false interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. There is no such thing as a legal "anchor baby". See below an excerpt [paraphrased] from Nathaniel Ward, on April 4, 2006 about the 14th Amendment.

http://www.myheritage.org/Features/EmailArchive/2006/040406.asp

In passing the 14th Amendment, on which birthright citizenship claims are erroneously made, Congress reiterated the Founding principles, Eastman said. Congress once again "rejected the feudal birthright citizenship doctrine of medieval England as fundamentally incompatible with the principles of the Declaration of Independence."

Only those who fully submitted themselves to our nation’s laws can be eligible for citizenship.
A current citizen or legal immigrant must agree to abide by the laws of the United States, so he and his children are eligible for citizenship. He has consented to be governed by American laws.

“Genealogy is my game” which requires, among other disciplines, the careful research of old documents. I can assure you that our LEGAL immigrant ancestors had to be adults, petition a Court, swear legal documents renouncing the Kings or Rulers of their former countries --- and then wait a few years to become American citizens.

Here is more than you probably want to know about the subject. Source: http://www.rootsweb.com/~bifhsusa/natrec.html

“U.S. NATURALIZATION RECORDS
Naturalization records are some of the most genealogically valuable records of all. This is when your ancestor decided to make the official break with his homeland and to adopt this new country as his own. He usually had been in the United States for five years or more when he took out his final papers. At that time he brought witnesses with him. These people were not like witnesses to a marriage; they had to have known your ancestor for a long time and be able to testify to his moral character. They were almost always close friends or relatives. Locating all of the documents involved in the naturalization process can be difficult, but it is well worth the effort. Even when they don't tell you the specific information you are seeking, they will usually provide clues to other documents. And most importantly, they will enable you to add another pivotal event to your ancestor's life beyond birth, marriage, and death.

“Be brave --- speak the Truth and shame the Devil”


Colson is a breath of fresh air
Thank you, thank you, thank you. At last a spokesman - and not just about this issue - who makes Christianity
respectable again. After having Limbaugh and Coulter and
the likes of many of those who have responded to this article speak for Christians, for conservatism, for a
philosophy of life, I feel that maybe I can lift my
head up again.

I am going to pick on Lydia because she went to so much
trouble to point out what is wrong with the Mexicans,
what is wrong Americans, and the rest of the world,
though obviously many share her views. Thank heavens
the biggest cranks who wrote in don't purport to be
Christians.

Quote #1: "Christianity doesn’t value the crime of breaking and entering, and it doesn’t reward it.
Christianity recognizes that the law be followed. Bush, Pence, and the illegals they represent need to follow the law for starters. We even need to change the law to ensure that those captured here illegally go directly out of the country without a lawyer."

On the face of it, this quote seems reasonable. Of
course, it does emphasize the God of Law and vengeance
for those who disobey (a very common theme among
extreme Right-Wing Christians) with no acknowledgement
of Christian love and Charity. However, things get a
little hairy with that last sentence. We need to
change the law to suit our own purposes. And while we
are at it, make sure that the opposing side is not
given a voice.

Quote #2: The Bible says that in heaven humans will be recognized by nations, tribes, and tongues....
There is nothing more unchristian-like than to blur the distinctions among nations, tribes, and tongues.

In 60 years of attending church I have missed that
particular chapter and verse. I am familiar with
the verse in Revelations that says that the angels will
visit all nations, tribes and tongues. I am also aware
of the passage that says we will all be one in heaven,
not even husband and wife, male and female, much less,
I would think, nation and tribe. As for the second part
of the quote, what can I say except that I can think
of a nearly infinite number of things that are more
unchristian-like. But I feel compelled to ask you
how many nations, tribes, and tongues have blurred into
our exising "legal" American society. A better question
might be - is there any nation, tribe, or tongue that
is missing in our society?

Quote #3: In the past both parties turned a blind eye to these immigrant invader/plunderers. These people have violated one of a nation’s most precious gifts: sovereignty.

I love maps - old and new. The last time I looked at
an old map of what is now the U.S. I saw huge tracts
of land in the southwest which were marked as belonging
to Mexico. How did they become our tracts of land? Is there any chance that we invaded/plundered or stole
someone else's most precious gift? Did
the Indians who inhabited both the U.S. and Mexico long
before we knew the land even existed decide to give it
to us? Probably not. Did we steal it from them through
guile and bloodshed or purchase it from others
who did? A much more likely scenario, don't you think?
You don't need to know history to know human nature. Is
one of our Christian principles "might makes right?"

However we got each individual tract of land, the
Mexicans are now claiming ownership once again, just by
moving in, finding a place to live, getting a job, sending their kids to school, maybe one day becoming
a legislator, a Governor, or even the President. More
power to them. I am indifferent, for the most part, as
to how it gets done.

We need them. We aren't having enough kids to support
our social security wages. They tend to have lots of
kids. And there are many other great things about them.
They are Christian, unlike most of the other immigrants
including western Europeans, they are strongly family-
oriented, most are hard workers, and contrary to rumor,
they are clamoring to get into classes that teach English.

For the record, my own grandfather came here illegally.
He went to Canada, then crossed over that unprotected
border to the North. He never bothered to learn much
of any English until WWI sort of forced the issue. (He
was German). When he died in 1968 he left behind 10
children and five farms. He did all right by the U.S.
and I might add, the U.S. did all right by him.

It will cost us some money up front, but it will be worth
it in the long run. And if for some reason it doesn't
pay off in financial terms, well, boo hoo. Mexicans are human beings too, God's children, and we are expected to treat them as such. The dumbest and worst thing we
could do is to pretend that we can somehow stop them
from coming here. They will find a way. You might as
well make it legal.




Bravo
Bravo Mr. Colson. It's good to see that a lot of true Christians understand the issues.

How dare he!
How dare Colson try to interject Christian and humanitarian ideas into the immigration debate. After all, those who do so are obviously just using it as a clever ploy to lead to the destruction of this country! Colson and other traitors just want to buy votes and don't care if our country becomes completely Mexicanized. The idea of our culture changing should disgust any good American and Christian. Thank God for good people like Pearliegirl who expose these actual non-Christian traitors by calling them childish names. People on this site are right in not ever criticizing her comments.

Detain and deport
This isn't an issue about Christians. It's about the rule of law and what kind of society we're going to have. I don't like explaining to my children that there are certain groups of people who don't have to follow the rules by buying insurance, paying for medical care, paying income taxes. Since when did we become a country that allows big business to dictate the rules? What part of illegal do we not understand and how come these people should be treated with prefence when there are people all over the world who have to wait in line for years just for the opportunity to come here to work? Cheap labor isn't worth the social and other economic costs. I don't want to keep paying for the corruption of foreign governments. It's not just the illegals from Mexico. Where I live, we have thousands of Chinese and Indians who have come in illegally, but since most have money, they aren't as visible as the illegals from south of the border. Let's get them out and then see about letting them in on an "as needed" basis. In the meantime, we should detain and deport. Callie, I like your idea, too, and as much as I like Chuck Colson for his beliefs, Pence's plan is nothing more than another form of amnesty for law breakers.

Thank you for writing
My dear PearlGirl. Thank you for writing and sharing your feelings about me. One note would have been enough. I got the message the first time. No need to be redundant. However, if it requires two or three notes to vent your spleen, so be it.

For the record, the maps mentioned in my email were on
television in a documentary about old maps. I believe it
was on the History Channel. None of my friends are
Communist, to my knowledge, and I don't even know what Soros is.

If you want to see some maps for yourself, go to EBay and request maps of Mexico or New Spain. Often both names are on the same map Get maps prior to 1800. After that date, boundaries moved around much more frequently.

Have a nice day.


An immigration compromise
It really upsets me when people like Charlie Colson - no matter how sincere - attempt to infuse Christianity into a this immigration debate when they have not done their homework on the subject!

Christ gave us two sets of commands on how we are to behave. One for individuals and the other for insitutions (e.g., when we serve as officers of Government charged with doing the greater good). At least this is my understanding.

It also explains why as individuals we are not to kill, but in our office as Jurors we might vote for the death penalty.

Certainly, we are not to do evil to these illegal law brakers, but neither are we to reward them. We are also not called to enable them in breaking legitmate laws. Nor do we do our neighbors a service by allowing them to become dependent on us.

The key word here is illegal. The Isrealites were once Aliens in Egypt, but they were there with the permission of the Pharoh! (i.e., they were not there illegally.

The Christian approach it Illegal Immigration should be to treat them humanely as we call the legal authorities to process them according to our valid laws (i.e., deport them). In the meantime, we should treat them as we would want to be treated (i.e., we should try to help them build up their own country).

We should also allow AS MANY AS WE ARE ABLE (i.e., at a rate we can digest and assimilate), we should allow some to come legally.

In the meantime, a country without borders is no country at all.

It is my understanding that God does allow people to have their own country - e.g., the Isrealites were given their Promised Land.

Mr. Colsen is obviously a good man who loves Christ, but I wish he would refrain from writing articles which presume to tell me (us) that we can not be Christians and oppose ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION (i.e., Foreign Invasion)!




Lisa , Lisa
Lisa writes, "Thank heavens the biggest cranks who wrote in don't purport to be Christians."

I generally avoid the religious disputes that periodically erupt on TH. However, if your purpose is to demonstate "respectable" Christianity, you might want to avoid labelling all who oppose you as "cranks."

Lisa also felt that Lydia "does emphasize the God of Law and vengeance for those who disobey (a very common theme among extreme Right-Wing Christians) with no acknowledgement
of Christian love and Charity."

First, Lydia said nothing about vengeance; she just thinks people who came here illegally should leave immediately. Second, Christ clearly approved of those who lawfully own guarding their lawful property: see Matthew 12: 29, Mark 3: 27 and Luke 11:21. As far as the acknowledgement of Christian love and charity, Jesus told us to visit those in prison (law-breakers); He said nothing about abolishing prison.

Lisa continues, "'The Bible says that in heaven humans will be recognized by nations, tribes, and tongues....' In 60 years of attending church I have missed that particular chapter and verse."

Lydia was probably referring to several passages in Revelation: Rev. 15:3-5, Rev. 21:24-26, and Rev. 22:1-3. Granted the vereses are open to some interpretation, but they do exist and Lydia's interpretation is intellectually valid.

Lisa continues, "I love maps - old and new. Is there any chance that we invaded/plundered or stole someone else's most precious gift? .... Did we steal it from them through
guile and bloodshed or purchase it from others
who did? A much more likely scenario, don't you think? You don't need to know history to know human nature. Is one of our Christian principles "might makes right?""

Nice caveat, "purchase it from others who did," since it relieves you from the awkward necessity of explaining how "Mexicans" got the land we "stole."

Harsh fact of history I: nations conquer other nations. (While you're looking at old maps, for instance, you might look at ones drawn up in Richmond between 1861-1865.) In the specific case, the US actually PAID Mexico for the land it annexed after the Mexican War. And while it's nice to think of the innocent Natives sitting around swapping wampum and passing the peace pipe, historically that wasn't the case.

Which brings up harsh fact of history II: virtually no one alive today is living on the land their ancestors occupied a century ago. So unless you're willing to try to force descendents of the Kiowas and Comanches out of land that they took from the Tonkawas and Lipan Apaches, for instance, you shouldn't waste tears on the European conquest of North America.

Lisa continues, "However we got each individual tract of land, the Mexicans are now claiming ownership once again"

Well, it's good to know you AREN'T wasting tears on the EUROPEAN conquest. Your antipathy is reserved for the US. And I point out again, the US PAID FOR the land. The Mexicans no more have "ownership" of it than I do of a house I lived in in 1986.

Lisa waxes positively eloquent at this point: Illegals are "moving in, finding a place to live, getting a job, sending their kids to school, maybe one day becoming
a legislator, a Governor, or even the President. More power to them. I am indifferent, for the most part, as to how it gets done."

Are you indifferent to the fact that were the situation reversed, Mexico would have no problem expelling Americans? (In fact the situation IS reversed on Mexico's southern border and they're using the military to guard the border.) Are you indifferent to the fact that all these wonderful hardworking people who could be President one day BROKE THE LAW to get here? Are you indifferent to the fact that if all these wonderful hardworking people can slip across our border, an Islamofascist with a dirty nuke could just as easily? The New Testament DOES task the state with protecting the law-abiding and punishing the lawbreakers (Romans 13: 3-5.)

Lisa then gets somber: "We aren't having enough kids to support
our social security wages."

Actually we WOULD be, if it weren't for your side's victory in Roe v. Wade.

"For the record, my own grandfather came here illegally."

So because your granddad broke the law and got away with it, the law should not be enforced. Glad your gramps wasn't Charles Manson.

"Mexicans are human beings too, God's children, and we are expected to treat them as such. The dumbest and worst thing we could do is to pretend that we can somehow stop them
from coming here. They will find a way. You might as well make it legal."

Why is expecting Mexicans, like every other one of "God's children," to obey the law NOT treating them as "God's children?" If you want to treat all of "God's children" equally, you've got to "make it legal" for EVERYONE. Maybe you think opening the borders to everyone in the world is the Christian thing to do. I disagree.

illegal aliens traded
Perhaps we could trade some other ethnic minority that causes us so much grief (and tax money)and allow an equal number of illegal aliens to stay. If we don't hurry, we White Americans will be the minority and don't think we are gona get as good as we've given!

I just posted...
... an article on the illegal issue on my blog:

viewfromtheisland.townhall.com

entitled "Republicans are committing suicide over illegal immigration"

Feel free to take a look.


Pence plan
This is just amnesty by another name and a little more time. A rose by any other name.....

Jobs No American Will Take?

In 15 years in the construction world I saw illegals TAKE FROM American workers such trades as:

1. Drywall;
2. Painting;
3. Bricklaying;
4. Roofing;
5. Concrete Work;
6. Lawnscaping;
7. Job Site Cleanup and when I retired they were making large inroads into Framing. The ONLY reason they hadn't taken over Plumbing, Electrical and Heating & Air is because of the required license.

All of these trades were done by Americans. Americans who had homes to pay for, families to care for and medical bills for which they were responsible. They could not live 6 or 8 to an apartment, drive around without license or insurance, lie about dependents for lower witholdings or work for 4-5 dollars less than the prevailing wage.

Mr Colson and the other Amnestyites would give these JOB THIEVES citizenship. After they broke the law coming here and then stole jobs from hard working Americans, he wants them to have the ultimate reward.

Another thing neither Mr. Colson nor any of the other Amnestyites consider is this:

In the last century America eradicated such diseases in this country as:

Polio;
Smallpox;
Cholera;
Diptheria and a host of others. These lawbreaking illegal aliens have come from countries that have NOT done away with these diseases and they have not been vaccinated before entering this country. That is how much consideration these illegals have for the country to which they have illegally entered for jobs (and whatever else) they may steal from the citizens.

Calie's got it right
Proposed immigration bill as per Calie is right on the money. Hurrah.

COLSON'S COMPROMISE
CHUCK,

IF EISENHOWER COULD STOP THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IN IT'S TRACKS THEN SO CAN BUSH AND ALL THE WEENIE'S IN THE MEXICAN SENATE.

THERE'S TOO MUCH MONEY HERE FOR THE GREEDY POLITICIANS, CORPORATIONS AND DRUG DEALERS TO LET THIS COME TO A HALT. THIS I ANOTHER WAR ON OUR TURF AND THE ENEMY IS WITHIN AND WITHOUT. THEY INVOKE THE NAMES OF FREE TRADE, ENVIRONMETALISM, GLOBALISM LOOKING FOR SOME EXCUSE TO WRECK THIS BASTION OF FREEDOM. THE RICH AND THE EMPOWERED ARE ACTING SO WORLDLY AND TREATING US AS THOUGH WE WERE THE WATERBOYS ON THE FOOT BALL TEAM. WE ARE NOT IN A FIEFDOM, WE ARE NOT SERFS OR PEASANTS, THAT WAR WAS FOUGHT IN THE 1700'S AND WE WON THE RIGHT TO ESTABLISH THIS NATION, THE REST OD THE WORLD CAN BURN IN HELL BEFORE WE TURN LOOSE OF THIS FREEDOM.

NO AMNESTY, NO COMPROMISE,SECURE THE BORDERS AND ENFORCE THE IMMIGRATION LAWS ON THE BOOKS. THIS IS HOW WE WILL GET THIS UNDER CONTROL.

LH

last time out
I can't believe I am writing yet another letter on this
website. I have other things to do in my life. I want to
get on with it. I hereby promise to not even open this
website for another month. But I feel that I must respond to DocNolCat because he/she took so much time to write to me.

First of all, if I have given offense to God or mankind
by calling a crank a crank, I apologize. I am not a flaw
less Christian. Second, I don't think that everyone who opposes me is a crank. For instance, I don't think you are a crank. I only think that cranks (those who are
permanently cranky, who thrive on whining) are cranks.

I am not responding to argue fine points about either
religion or history this time around, who should have
the land or who shouldn't. I do not want to discuss
my scoundrel grandfather (gosh, and I had thought he
was a really neat person).

I want to discuss what IS. Abortion exists and always
will (and whatever made you think I am a proponent of
abortion?). Abortion is not the reason why there is a
shortage of little ones to pay our way during retirement.
It is the pill, and the desire that people have to not
have 5 and 10 kids. You can include me in that one. I
have had no abortions. I did take the pill. I am
perfectly happy with the two children I have.

Another thing that IS is the Mexicans in our country.
They are here. They aren't going to go away. If you
send them back over the border they will find a way
back. I suppose you can call them criminals if you want.
Will that satisfy your righteous anger? They are still
going to be here.

Twenty five years ago when we first moved to this town
Mexicans worked literally in our back yard. Well,
actually in the flower fields just beyond our back yard.
Through a project in our church, a woman who knows
Spanish fluently taught several of them English in our
basement twice a week in the evening. The flower fields
eventually closed down, and the Mexicans moved on to
other fields.

More recently we have had a very large influx of those
who are working in some pork product plants. Unlike
the field workers, these people have their families with
them. One of the things that I should be doing right
now instead of writing these letters is buying books for
the migrant children. I belong to an organization called
Altrusa Intl that has been buying these books for migrant
children for the last three years. We buy bilingual books whenever we can find them so that both parent and child can practice their English. Once a year we take
the day care children to a book store so they can pick
out their own books. Between the contributions of the book store and our organization, they can choose any book or books for up to $20.00. It is thrilling to see how excited they get about that.

While that last paragraph may sound conveniently self-
serving right now, it happens to be true. I know none
of the Mexicans well, but those I have met I have liked
very much. OUr crime rates have not gone up, our
city coffers actually have a surplus this year, we do
not have high unemployment at all. As far as I know and
can tell from letters to the editor in the newspaper,
no one is feeling threatened by this influx.

I would suggest that people thrive on bringing up the
illegal part, putting all of the blame on those
dastardly Mexicans who are looking for a piece of OUR
pie, are doing so to cover up more ticklish feelings.
It might be the skin color, it might be that they are
not waspish enough, maybe they don't like Catholics,
maybe they are afraid of losing their own job, maybe we
might have to pay a few more $ in taxes. Who knows.
But I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the illegality of it is a reason of convenience.

Coulson and Pence
When I call my Senator and Congressman it will be to tell them to refuse to compromise on this issue. Mike Pence has holes big enough to drive a few million illegal aliens, and certainly some terrorists through. How can the accuracy of any information given by these illegals to facilitate their inclusion in a Guest Worker's Program be confirmed? For that matter, how can anyone even confirm their true identity?

Another thing. Who can trust the competency or motivation of the bureaucrats who would be staffing these so called Ellis Island Centers? Someone recently damaged a fence on private property built by the Minute Men. It was reported that the tracks of the vandals looked very much like the tracks of boots worn by the Border Patrol. George Bush controls the Border Patrol, and I don't trust him as far as I could throw Air Force One.

I can appreciate Chuck Colson's Christian perspective, but not his political advice. His comments about the religious community remind me of the "Liberation Theology" in South America years ago. It was basically Marxist and subversive in its motivation. It has reared its ugly head again in America with the recent declarations of a Catholic cleric in California who encourages churches to break immigration law.

In fact the "Sanctuary" concept is an illegal one. I would throw this guy, and anyone else who breaks the law into jail. That is where law breakers usually go if they are apprehended and convicted of a crime. Conviction here seems a given, based on their public statements.

I relly believe that Chuck Colson is becoming a waste of time. I will act accordingly.

Double talk...
.."wholesale depportation of all illegal immigrants,..would virtually stop the American economy in its tracks."

"Pence's proposal requires them to leave the country.."

So if we kick them out, the country implodes, but if they leave voluntarily everything is A O.K. RI*DIC*U*LOUS

Lisa, referring to our economy as a "pie" simply exposes your capitalist ignorance, pies don't expand to feed everybody. Stick with rearing children and leave economics to men.

Giving Up the Lie
If losing millions of Mexican laborers would stop our economy dead in its tracks, then why is Mexico letting them go?

Zorkpolitics:
I found your proposal interesting. Kind of along the lines that suicide is interesting.

Make the illegals pay $1000 to $5000 per year of their illegal presence.

Let's examine that.

How many do you think are going to step forward and claim to have been here longer than a year? My estimate: about zero percent.

Next step: the amount of the fine. For the whole time they've been in this country they've paid, oh.... let's see .... hmmmm ... zero income taxes. So their "fine" won't even make up the lost taxes. Further, under the Senate proposal, they'd only have to pay taxes on 2 years income out of the last 5. I wish I could select that option. I'd be a helluva lot better off than I am now.

That fine also won't even begin to make a dent in the cost to taxpayers for the social services they've consumed, like emergency room healthcare, education for their ankle-biters, etc.

Your proposal is ludicrous (and I ain't talkin' 'bout no rap star!)

Invasion is NOT "immigration"
You just don't get it, Mr. Colson. The MEXICAN illegal aliens
1. DO NOT want to pledge alleigance to this country,
2. DO NOT want to be assimilated,
3. DO NOT want to "ask what they can do for this country,"
4. DO NOT want to give up their language,
5. DO NOT want to give up their culture, including *core values* like the ability to bribe people to get around "inconvenient" laws,
6. DO NOT recognize the sovereignty of the USA and the individual western states.

They DO want to
1. OCCUPY the land sold TO THE USA by Santa Ana for $15 million in gold,
2. RUN "gringos" OUT OF IT.
3. Intimidate us by using OUR law to THEIR advantage.
4. Intimidate us into thinking that they can't be "evicted" from this country.
5. Play the "race card" to appeal to the politically correct.
6. Play the "Christian card" to appeal to our "moral obligations" to feed the hungry, heal the sick, etc.
7. Make whatever unholy alliances necessary to secure their power here.

See this! http://www.azanderson.org/anderson_report_graphic_map_showing_aztlan_conce.htm


Immigration compromise
It is the same old crap. No compromise, secure the borders and start with the attrition of illegals, deny them state and federal benefits, deny their anchor babies the right of citizenship as the parents are criminals since they have broken OUR LAWS. This has nothing to do with being a Christian it to do with saving America and it's people. The illegals are not all mexican, there are several other nationalities so we need to secure the borders, get rid of the illegals and save ourselves. Charity begins at home.

And Who Pays?
You say: "President Bush’s position on the debate has been, in my opinion, comprehensive and responsible."

From fly-over country, where I sit, it seems that the only people seeking or pushing "comprehensive" reform are either within the Beltway or members of La Raza. The "American people" want nothing to do with a comprehensive reform, although that seemingly matters little to the two groups mentioned above.

My understanding of the Pense plan is that it requires a 24 hour return to Mexico to pick up their paper and then they return - is this not so? I didn't see that in your column.

Also, will this approach then allow all of their family members to follow them to the green pastures of the North, and who will then pay for the additional needs of millions of additional immigrants? Will it be your church, or perhaps the Catholic Church, or - heavens to Betsy - could it be the US Taxpayers? And I have seen estimates that EACH illegal causes a negative differential of $89,000 between value and cost.
Try multiplying that figure by another 36-48 million people when everyone is finished bringing their families to this great land of free benefits.

Lisa suggested that we "may have to pay a few more dollars in taxes" to support the illegals.
Frankly, my first concern is in providing for my family. If that is un-Christian and selfish, so be it. But I would rather they not grow up in a third-world country, where people sell oranges in the street from an appropriated grocery store shopping basket...too many people have labored too long and too hard to make the United States the greatest nation in the world to simply hand it over to the invaders.

To my knowleege, the United States has long welcomed immigration, and both sides have certainly benefited from it. An established procedure for immigration existed and all was well. It is only since the one side has decided that they see no need to follow the immigration procedure that Americans have gotten their dander up, and it is certainly understandable.

Mexican immigrants have come here legally for decades after applying and being accepted. They have been welcomed and have (hopefully) prospered. The Mexican immigrant of today will be equally welcome if he/she follows the procedure.

But they should not be surprised to be unwelcome if they choose to create their own rules in blatant violation of our laws.

Hail and farewell, Lisa
It is very tempting to say Lisa posts unconfirmable tales of her own charity and how wonderful all the Mexicans in her town are, rather than arguing "fine points about either
religion or history" because she can offer no rebuttal of fact or logic. However tempting, though, I will not assert this as fact, because I have no basis for doing so. Rather like Lisa has no basis for her belief, "But I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the illegality of it is a reason of convenience." -- i.e. all of us conservatives are just closet racists. Since she's never coming back, though, I'll not get into the finer points of her last post.

I do want to correct one misstatement of fact, though. Lisa says, "Abortion is not the reason why there is a shortage of little ones to pay our way during retirement." According to the non-partisan Alan Guttmacher Institute, approximately one of every four pregnancies in the US ends in abortion; from 1973-2002, more than 43 million legal abortions were performed in the US. All of those from 73-85 would be over 21 now. That's approximately 16 million fewer 21+ year olds to be part of the workforce.

And in an eerie coincidence, the best estimate of the number of illegals in the workforce is...?

I'm getting paranoid here
Dems and Reps are pushing "guestworker" or amnesty. Few voices are stating what the American PEOPLE want. Always, we are told it is 'compassionate solution.' Or even worse that any other is 'impractical' or 'impossible.'

WE THE PEOPLE WANT A WALL. WE DO NOT WANT ANY LAWBREAKERS AWARDED CITIZENSHIP.

What is so difficult to understand about this position?

Is it too simple? Or is there another reason??? I am begining to think that money or power are more at play than we think?


Worth repeating: How dare he!
How dare Colson try to interject Christian and humanitarian ideas into the immigration debate. After all, those who do so are obviously just using it as a clever ploy to lead to the destruction of this country! Colson and other traitors just want to buy votes and don't care if our country becomes completely Mexicanized. The idea of our culture changing should disgust any good American and Christian. Thank God for good people like Pearliegirl who expose these actual non-Christian traitors by calling them childish names. People on this site are right in not ever criticizing her comments.

Lawbreakers thrice over
Where are these 'decent people' to which President Bush keeps referring over and over?

For many years I lived in an urban area, in a neighborhood heavily populated with illegals. One thing I can say for a fact: these illegals are ARMED TO THE TEETH! December 31st and May 5th always sounded like Tet Offensive and Saturday night, any time sounded like a cheap Italian Western.

Let's see...these 'decent people' President Bush wants to grant citizenship:

1. They broke the law coming here illegally;
2. They broke another law when they went
out and purchased a 9mm automatic;
3. They continue to flaunt the local laws
on liability insurance;
4. They laugh at our tax laws, lying about
number of dependents they have.

Do we really want people who respect NOT ONE of our laws . . . do we really want them as citizens? crap, we already have folks like this. We call them politicians.

Pence Solves Problems
Hello all,
Fly over NYC some time. Then imagine everyone down there - all 12 million or more - as an illegal in need of rounding up and deportation. Then imagine rounding them up and deporting them.
Now imagine a great big wall across the southern border of TX, NM, AZ and CA, and across the northern border of ME, NH, VT, NY, PA, OH, MI, WI, MN, ND, MT, ID and WA. Stretch that wall into the oceans so that they can't swim here.
Now imagine you are on the other side of that wall, bound and determined to get here no matter what. Is that impossibly expensive wall, and the impossibly expensive monitoring personnel and devices, going to keep you from getting here?
Mike Pence is addressing a huge problem in ways that don't belch out vitriole. He is addressing it charitably. Kudos, Mike.
The real solution is to change the incentives both here and abroad, using private sector initiatives and encouraging free trade (a western hemisphere free trade zone?) and indigenous economic growth policies, particularly in Mexico.
More about the incentives if anyone is interested.

Chuck, hear us,,"ITS AN EVIL MONEY CULT"
Most of the Senate, 60 or more members R and D are members, 250 or more of the Congress R and D, the President and his father, all his Cabinet,
the leaders of the Republican and Democratic org's all of them and the ones who provide the money to re-elect are in a huge evil money cult, and you know it down in your soul, yet once more you go that path which you know leads to the world of sin, we plead with you do not follow these false gods you see before you, for you will see something else when the weavers work is known not to be of gold after all.

beware it is a true evil money cult do not fall in with them you will not come out, now go and sin no more
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.