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Thursday, November 27, 2008
Christopher Merola :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Is the Separation of Church and State?
by Christopher Merola
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With this year’s Thanksgiving holiday at our door, it is fitting that we ask an important question that has so much to do with our Constitutional liberties: What is the Separation of Church and State?

Why is it fitting to ask this question as we approach the Thanksgiving holiday? Well, it’s precisely the Thanksgiving holiday that reminds us of the origins of the phrase, separation of church and state.

In 1620, a group of Christian pilgrims known as the Separatists washed ashore in what came to be known as Plymouth, Massachusetts. They first left England to escape religious persecution there. They landed in Holland but realized Holland was not a place that allowed their faith to flourish. They set sail again; this time for America.

When the pilgrims set up their colony in Plymouth, Massachusetts, they soon employed a policy that came out of their own struggles for religious freedom. They employed the first American policy of a separation of church and state.

This may seem like a counterintuitive decision for a group of deeply religious people. However, the Separatists knew full well that when the power of the church is placed under the control of the government, the government then begins to mandate its own sanctioned religious practice. The Separatists had endured the religious persecution of the state in England and wanted to ensure that no such persecution would occur in America. Unlike the Puritans, who believed in establishing some form of a Theocracy, these Separatists, being true to their name, decided to separate the two entities of the church and the state so as to allow the free expression of religion to flourish. That is precisely what happened. Early America in the 1600’s saw many religious groups and sects set up colonies that were specifically designed for the free expression of their religion without government interference. That is what the separation of church and state is really all about: keeping the government out of the church’s business.

Fast forward to the writing of our nation’s Bill of Rights in 1789. Founding fathers like Patrick Henry and James Madison knew that allowing a mandated government religious practice would stifle religious expression in the new nation. They decided to embrace what is the most harmonious balance between the federal government and the church that the world has ever seen. They wrote the First Amendment of the Constitution.

In the First Amendment we see the balance between the federal government’s role in protecting religious practice and not coercing it. The First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees all Americans the freedom of speech, religion, press, petition and assembly, has this to say about religious practice: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

The federal government cannot mandate a religious practice, nor can they prohibit religious practice. Unfortunately, in the last few decades we have seen many judicial rulings that demonstrate a desire to uphold the establishment clause of the First Amendment at the expense of the free exercise clause. This is completely contrary to the purpose of the First Amendment and a violation of it as well.

The first major case that undermined the balance between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause occurred in 1947. In Everson vs. Board of Education the Supreme Court, led by Justice Hugo Black, an FDR appointee and member of the Ku Klux Klan, reinterpreted the meaning of the First Amendment of the Constitution. This decision set in motion an unconstitutional chain of events that has undermined our First Amendment liberties ever since.

Just what did Justice Black and the other FDR appointees to the Supreme Court do? They hijacked a phrase used by President Thomas Jefferson, “separation of church and state,” found in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association (1802). Jefferson’s letter was actually used by the court to limit religious freedom.

By taking completely out of context the phrase used by Jefferson in his letter, "separation of church and state," the Supreme Court ruled that the freedom of religious expression in the public square was a violation of the “separation of church and state” found in the Constitution. This is an astounding ruling, as the phrase “separation of church and state” is not even found in the Constitution.

In 1947, the Supreme Court actually used Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists as the basis for their decision, even though his letter is not Constitutional law. This is another example of the Progressive Bait and Switch tactic at work that I spoke of in my last article with Townhall.

Another interesting fact concerning Jefferson's use of the phrase, “separation of church and state” is its true meaning. Thomas Jefferson used this phrase as nothing more than a metaphor to express the First Amendment’s role as a protector of religious expression in the public square. So even if Jefferson’s letter was Constitutional law, Hugo Black and the other FDR appointees on the Supreme Court still misinterpreted the meaning of Jefferson’s letter and the separation of church and state.

In his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, President Jefferson said he believed there was a "wall of separation" in the Constitution that was designed to keep the government from interfering in the affairs of the church, not a wall to keep free speech out of the public arena. Thankfully, the Supreme Court finally clarified what Jefferson truly meant in Lynch vs. Donnelly (1984) when they said that the phrase “separation of church and state” is nothing more than the opinion of Thomas Jefferson, a “euphemism” as they put it, not Constitutional law.

While the 1984 case was a breath of fresh air to those who love liberty, the damage of the 1947 case has led to other terrible decisions that defy logic, reason and the Constitution itself. In fact, the 1947 ruling, in spite of being inaccurate and unconstitutional, has become part of the American collective consciousness.

In what has become the most infamous Supreme Court ruling regarding religious speech, Engel vs. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court reinterpreted the meaning of the establishment clause in the First Amendment and misused its authority to ban the free exercise of religion in schools. This is the famous school prayer case.

According to the Supreme Court in 1962, the free exercise of religion in school somehow violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. The founding fathers would be up in arms to hear that free speech was now censored in the name of protecting the establishment clause.

While it is true that American students who do not want to pray in school should not be forced to do so, it also true that those who do desire to pray should not be denied their First Amendment right to do so. There is a balance in the First Amendment between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. It must be upheld in order for liberty to abound.

Where do these liberal judicial activist judges get this bizarre and erroneous interpretation of the First Amendment and the separation of church state in the first place? Looking back in American history, we find that this same misguided interpretation of the First Amendment was actually the vision of Roger Baldwin, the founder of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) in 1920. Baldwin, it is important to mention, was a member of the Communist Party of the USA.

It was Baldwin’s vision to remove all references to God and religion from the public square, even though the free expression clause of the First Amendment is clear as day. Starting around the 1920’s, a major reinterpretation of the meaning of the First Amendment and the Constitution itself began to make its way into the colleges and universities of the USA. It is this time in history that colleges and universities begin to teach that the Constitution is a “living document;” one that changes with the times.

Regardless of the opinion of radicals like Baldwin, it is important to remember that all Americans do have the Constitutional right of religious expression in the public square as long as the federal government does not coerce that expression. Ironically, what the Supreme Court did in 1947 and 1962 was coerce the limiting of religious expression, in keeping with Roger Baldwin’s dream. As such, the First Amendment rights of all Americans have been threatened and even violated in some cases, because the Supreme Court embraced the opinion of a man who was a member of the Communist Party of the USA, not the Constitution of the United States.

Finally, after more than forty years of cognitive dissonance concerning the free exercise of religion, the Supreme Court re-established the true nature of the First Amendment in Board of Education of Westside Community Schools vs. Mergens (1990). In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the rights of all students to voluntarily pray in school, form Bible study groups and express their religious beliefs provided the government, including government paid officials (i.e. teachers, counselors), do not coerce that religious expression. Yet, even with the Mergens case re-establishing the balance between the establishment clause and the free exercised clause, the damage of the 1947 and 1962 cases still lives on.

Let’s consider the 2002 case of Kala Brotos, a five-year old kindergarten student from Saratoga Springs, NY. Before eating her lunch, little Kala simply prayed out loud and gave thanks for her meal. Her teacher then scolded her before the entire the class, claiming that Kala violated the separation of church and state – Roger Baldwin’s version, that is. The teacher even claimed that Kala committed a “crime against humanity.”

Well, a crime against humanity was indeed committed -- against a little five year-old girl -- who simply gave thanks before her lunch. If this is not tyranny, I don’t know what is.

Take a closer look at our culture today. The propaganda concerning the First Amendment is staggering. Each year thousands of students are suspended, harassed, receive lower grades on their term papers, or even arrested for simply expressing their deeply held religious beliefs in the public forum. I know this personally having endured the discrimination and bigotry of liberal professors during college and graduate school. Such behavior is against federal law. It is called belief discrimination and it occurs more often than you think.

If we take a closer look at just what the Constitution really says, we will see that the religious practice of Americans is the choice of each citizen and cannot be censored even in public. The government cannot mandate religious practice, nor can the government deny that same practice. That is the balance of powers spelled out in the First Amendment. If we fail to maintain that balance then we as a nation are no longer truly free.

When we give thanks this Thanksgiving, let us remember the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said, “The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time.”

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About The Author

Christopher Merola is the Political Director for Political Media, Inc, a political advertising and public relations firm in Washington, DC.

the best explanation of SOCAS
This is a beautifully written article that really explains what the Separation of Church and State really is.

This article should slice through the confusion that many Americans endure when wanting to express their religious beliefs openly.

Hats of to Christopher Merola!

Article is
a keeper to be sent to others.

Well Said!
Thank you for putting this issue in such clear perspective. The media and activist groups remember primarily the 1947 Justice Black poorly informed and unconstitutional decision, not the clarification of Lynch vs. Donnelly (1984) that the "wall of separation" in the Constitution was "designed to keep the government from interfering in the affairs of the church".

Mainstream media could do a great service to our nation by helping to rectify the misinformed public consciousness. How easily slander, misinformation, and myth is propagated. With very little effort, the injustice of the 1947 decision could be demonstrated and the 1984 clarification promoted as the sound constitutional judgment that it is.

A really good article!
I liked reading this article, essentially because it was well researched and the points made flowed from that research. Thank goodness. Most "conservative" stuff is simply drivel, but this is excellent.

But I have to posit the argument which I think holds...

1. What kinds of religious expression are acceptable in and of themselves?
2. Finding that, is it acceptable to give offence to that by holding the religious expression?

Let's take a religion which no one is really angry about, so say, Buddhism. Were a buddhist monk to sit in the street, soliciting alms for the poor and food for himself (as is perfectly acceptable religious practice in, say Thailand, a buddhist country), is it OK for the police to take him away because he's causing a disturbance to the peace?

If it is acceptable, then why is it unacceptable for the police to do the same to a Christian monk collecting alms and food for the same purpose?

One must accept all, or admit there are limits. And of course there are limits! I'd never desecrate a church or disrespect Christ or an image of him, despite the fact I am not a Christian, and I say it's terrible to do so. But would you offer me the same courtesy if you saw me pray in front of my little statue of the Buddha?

I hope not! And I think many people would say that too! Yet some would smash it as a false idol.

So here is the rub. A private person can be a professor at a state run facility. They will have personal beliefs. Those beliefs can be offensive to you, just as yours might be offensive to them. So you do just as you would with any other person. You show them courtesy by not provoking them.

Huh. So...
...when somebody decides he simply has to pray over the PA system before a high school football game - because God, as in national elections, definitely takes sides when the Cougars play the Chiefs - I have just as much right to hop on up there and start expounding on Flying Spaghetti Monsterism? Or my belief in ancient Greek myths? Or paganism?

Fantastic news. I'll be sure to do this, and when I get hauled off to jail, it'll be good to know all you Christians will be fighting tooth and nail to get me out.

The problem you do not see:
When someone uses the PA system in a school to say a prayer it is an entanglement of the school with religious practice. It is like the school is endorsing the prayer since the PA system is being used in the prayer, so that would be unaccepatble.

On the other hand, if that same person says that prayer aloud in the hallway or in the cafetaria, it is a student led and student initiatied prayer without the school becoming entangled in the process. That is acceptable.


Tony, Cliff
Both of you are correct. A definitive reference piece for the future.

Yup.
"When someone uses the PA system in a school to say a prayer it is an entanglement of the school with religious practice. It is like the school is endorsing the prayer since the PA system is being used in the prayer, so that would be unaccepatble.

On the other hand, if that same person says that prayer aloud in the hallway or in the cafetaria, it is a student led and student initiatied prayer without the school becoming entangled in the process. That is acceptable."

And that's pretty much exactly where we stand now as a nation. Do whatever the hell you want as an individual, for all I care. The second you start bringing it into state-run institutions is when I have a problem.

Quite honestly, I also have a problem when you knock on my door at seven in the morning to evangelize, or slip me a helpful pamphlet about saving my soul through coming to Jesus at work, but whatever. My free speech applies in those situations, too, so I can tell you precisely what I think of your superstitions.

And that's the way it should be.

Cavell
While in general you are right and a student saying it out loud and not on the pa system or being forced to by the school is ok how often do you hear about situations where students do this, pray on there own, and end up in trouble with the school or another students parents complaining?? It happens constantly, just as cited in the article with the 5 year old praying before eating and being berated by the teacher. The child was well with in their rights and to think otherwise is unacceptable even though it seems to be the norm.

We grew up praying in public school
We recited a prayer in Public School every morning.

The "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, but as the author rights, it was hijacked from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Church.

It is the epitome of liberal Supreme Court justices heinously manufacturing law and dishonoring the very foundation of this nation.

CavelL
I can only think that you're part of the evil that has seeped into this country by way of "Separation of Church and State" as those such as you would hope to do so, though I can understand that it is your right to object and your opinions are not to be violated or prevented from being said.
I, too, will practice my right by hereby saying a prayer for you as it is my right to do so.

Are you people kidding?
This writing is terrible! I've seen better writing in sixth grade classrooms.

And the analysis is quite superficial. I kept waiting for the author to give some explanation of the Supreme Court cases involved, maybe a description of the plaintiffs, defendants, particular points of law involved -- but there's nothing! Just general and undefended blather about free expression of religion.

Not to mention the gratuitous and irrelevant swipes at Hugo Black and Roger Baldwin. Please explain to me how Black can be both a liberal devil and a member in good standing in the KKK.

Is this the best that conservatives can do? How low does townhall intend to go? Readers, please don't praise anything stupid thing you read just because it agrees with your views.

txtruman
What you're saying is, "draw me a picture".

If you have problems reading, i suggest you return to about the 5th grade.....that will help you.

The KKK was a liberal group....everyone knows that....but you!!!!!

txtruman (0533)
"Please explain to me how Black can be both a liberal devil and a member in good standing in the KKK."

You can answer your own question if you figure out how ex-Kleagle Robert Byrd remains a lion of the Democratic Party.

By the way, Black's efforts at building a stronger wall between church and state than the Constitution specifies was informed by his anti-Catholic bias, a characteristic that he shared with his sheet-wearing brethren.

God Bless and Protect - American Warrior
The American Warrior is someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness for Duty, Honor and Country.

The American Warrior is someone who frightens many people because they live in denial of reality, the American Warrior reminds those people that violence exists in the world.

The American Warrior has the capacity for violence towards those who threaten America and the American way of life.

The American Warrior is a constant reminder that there are terrorists in the land and those that wish to destroy America are already here on American soil.

The American Warrior on September 11, 2001, rushed towards the danger instead of fleeing from it, intent on defending and helping those American citizens in danger. Many American Warriors gave their lives that day and many more were willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for America and its citizens.

Most Americans are glad that they were not on the planes that crashed into the WTC and the Pentagon - the American Warrior wished they had been on those planes because they might have made a difference.

American Warriors were on United Airlines Flight 93 and defended unto death America and its citizens with the cry "lets roll".

The American Warrior waits for the day that they have lived for and trained for their entire life - to defend until death, America and its citizens.

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke

This Thanksgiving, I salute the American Warrior, both living and dead. Men and women who serve in the Armed Forces, Police Forces, Fire Departments and ordinary civilians who rush forward to our defense instead of running from danger.

The American Warrior - God Bless and Protect You!

Power
"However, the Separatists knew full well that when the power of the church is placed under the control of the government..."

Right, and the danger of placing control of the government under the power of the church. It works both ways.

Freedom Of Religion
The Liberals seem to have adopted the idea that religion is bad for America. In truth, religion vs state has no standing..all the constitution says is that the government cannot promote or force any citizen to get involved in a religion as the church of England did.

no religion
The liberal illuminati has, in a lot of cases, given the opinion that any sort of religion is bad. That's where I seem to have the most problem with it. It is not just a matter of what's working vs not, it's a matter of showing any sort of religious preference at any time that appears to be the problem now.

take America back
As for the article, it is the most clear and concise explanation I have ever read on this subject. I am going to share this with as many people as possible.

Now, more than ever, it is time to fight back and stop apologizing for what is good and decent. To that end, it is time to shed the myth surrounding the admonition to turn the other cheek. In a nutshell the admonition is about forgiveness. It is NOT about caving in when some whiny liberal like txtruman or cavell start yelling and name calling.

As for txtruman and cavell, they are the epitome of whiners who never miss a chance to share their emotions in a theatrical, condescending manner. To even call their argument specious would insult anybody who has ever taken a practical reasoning or logic course. Also, their ilk wrongly assumes that we won’t go elsewhere on line and read the cited cases.

Good is good when nobody is doing it. Evil is evil when everybody is doing it.

Separation Understood
Mr. Merola did well in explaining what God-haters and liberals have turned into an issue of greater proportion than many know. If religious people turned this around and "claimed" that all non-religious peoples have to be religious, then we would have a civil war.

Practice of religion is never to be legislated or infringed upon by government. But those who are atheistic Marxists socialists will stop at nothing to destroy America. The greatest attack on us is through the denial of our religious freedoms.

Personally, I will follow the Biblical principle: "We ought obey God, rather than men" (Acts 5:29). This is our greatest Constitutional privilege -- May God help us preserve it.

If you want the cases,
go to a library that has Nexus Lexus as a search engine and look up the orignal cases.

Brett Schundler, treated miserably by the RINOS of NJ, fought the ACLU on a Christmas display issue as mayor of Jersey Cirty and won because he proved that the *protest* brought by a Jersey resident had been directly solicited and abetted by the ACLU.

In other words, no one was *offended* by Frostie and the baby Jesus in a Christmas display, except a card-carrying ACLU member who was prompted into his *citizen's duty* to object to religion on public grounds by order of his ACLU leaders.

Many 20th C. Sup. Ct. decisions should be revisited: the original Griswold where Abe Fortas found a *penumbra* of privacy in the Const. should be overturned. That would kick out the underpinnings of Roe and Lawrence and all the ancillaries.

All of the 1972 decisions that found Const. protection for the f-word (Cohen) and the inclusion of pornography in the First Amendment need a case to give them another look.

The 1989 Halzelwood diluted the over-reaching Tinker 1969 of *student's rights* fame and the latter a major reason for the collapse of disicpline in public schools for generations, but no such correction has been ruled on the religion-in-in-public-life issues or the abortion abomination.

Let's give thanks no Sup. Ct. member is at the moment hospitalized or completely debilitated, so Big Bro O does not get an opportunity to nominate any other whackos like Ginsberg, who has NEVER voted a modersate position on any issue and has ALWAYS agreed with the most left-wing point of view.

Excellent Article
An excellent explanation of how our courts, under the influence of secularists and leftists of all stripes, have re-interpreted a statement in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson that is not in our Constitution. "Separate" means that the state will not dictate to the church, and that the church cannot dictate to the state. Accordint to activist jusges and the ANTI-American Civil Liberties Union the Separation of CHURCH AND STATE should mean SEPARATION OF GOD AND STATE.

Del

All very well, but....
Premise: When good men do nothing, evil men prosper (paraphraise)
It would seem to me that the article was pointing out that political adjendas of individuals, who's thoughts about America and its Constitution,which were contrary to the Freedom's it gives the American populace; used which ever means they could to subvert it, in any clandestine way avalible. Freedom has always been the enemy of those who want to subjegate the populace to any form of tyrany; to have absolute control.Much like the governing powers people fled from to come here for individual freedom. That being said; sense this particular battle was brought against the people's freedoms, and the judicial powers were employed to thwart the intent and definition of the Bill of Rights; this nation has been in a rapidly declining spiral of moral behavior.As the truth, and yes freedom, of INDIVIDUAL religious pratice and belief have been taken out of the public square, which served as a reminder of those truths,the decadence of disobedience abounds to the point of relative objectivity; and its results are exemplified by the numerious and overwhelming problems in our lives today. This would include the helter skelter way our government functions, and by example its "I have the answer" rational. Things will not get better in this nation untill it revives its moral standard with an absolute direction of truth. That will take individual willingness and determination to right what is wrong, and not relatively speaking about the two. In every ones heart, the truth is known, most of the times it is just covered with the junk that substitues itself for truth. It is time for America to rediscover the truths our Founding Fathers relied on to direct itself back to its freedoms it wants so desperatly.

The wall is for protection not exclusion
The Christian church is under persecution today like never before in our history, and the fact that so many do not even see it proves just how dangerous it is to our very survival as a nation. History tells us that those early settlers who came to the new land for religious freedom understood it at the very first Thanksgiving as they gave thanks to almighty God. President George Washington proclaimed it in 1789 and said, " That great and glorious being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is or that will be." as he proclaimed a national day of thanksgiving to God. In 1863 Abraham Lincoln established a national day of Thanksgiving and stated, "No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal has worked out these great things. THey are gracious gifts of the most high God who while dealing with us in anger for our sins, has never the less mercy." Sadly today we have seen the 10 commandments ripped off the walls of our public buildings, our children taught wrongly that they can not even pray or take a Bible to school, or even say the name of God or Jesus while on school property. Our churches are attacked, the media delights in reporting of anti-Christian acts, marriage as God intended is under seige, and we openly take the lives of our unborn by the millions. Remember 911? The next day churches all over the U.S. were full. Now we face not just the evil of terrorist, but an economic melt down. God does not need any government, but governments that do not honor God do not stand.

Isn't it ironic
that those who scream the loudest at any public display of religion model their tactics after those of the very Puritans they despise?

As I recall, Puritans didn't like any form of celebratory display, and generally didn't seem to really enjoy life either. Kind of like today's liberals who have no sense of joy in life, much less a sense of humor.


Retired Geek
Amen!

"For those that protect it, freedom has a special meaning the protected will never know."
Scrawled on a "C" Ration box at Khe Sahn, Republic of South Vietnam 1968.

what was meant
While I agree 'not in constitution'... what many try to ignore is 'what is meant'.

While true that the 'seperation' quesiton is not constitutional....it is very clear what Jefferson meant.

Often people ignore the original meaning assigning their own.

We evan have way too many thinking that most of the founders were christian when in their own letters & etc,they often said they werent.

Even so, the idea is, that a government official should not 'in the name of government' be leading a prayer or otherwise making those of 'not the same faith' do the prayer.
And even doing it and expecting others to be quiet is wrong.


Though Christian, I will never pray in groups or in public (where government is involved)..

I will never ever be told in that context (teacher or 'real' gov.) what to believe or pray over. Only family or private prayer.

Religion issue irony
I agree it is wrong and absurd to punish individual students for praying or Bible reading in a non-disruptive way. I don't think this happens nearly as often as Religious Right scare stories would claim, but when it does happen, it is wrong. On the other hand, organized group prayer and Bible reading in a compulsory classroom setting is not "free exercise". It is coerced exercise.

In any case, I find it ironic how liberals and conservatives switch places where religion issues are involved. Generally speaking, it is liberals who believe government is the be-all and end-all of society, government must be involved in everything worthwhile, and if you don't believe govt. should be involved with something, you must not value it at all. If you don't want government supporting the arts, you must be a cultural philistine who hates art. If you don't want more govt. welfare programs to help the poor, you must want the poor to starve. Etc, etc, etc.

But on religion in the "public square", suddenly it is the conservatives-- some of them, anyway-- who want the government heavily involved and actively promoting religion, who claim that if you don't want that you must hate religion, and who seem to feel that without active government support 'our great religious heritage" will dry up and blow away.

Wacky
Of course you can pray to your little Buddha, right out in front of God and everybody even, and nobody, but *nobody*, would give a hurrah in a high wind. You can get with a group of like-minded fellows and petition the city for the opportunity to display your Buddhism in the park on whatever holy days the faith has, though you may not reasonably expect the taxpayers to fund it. You may solicit for alms just as the Sallies do, so long as it is within the law. This is America, and YOU get to choose how and when and to whom you give your worship and charity.

That said, this is a nation founded upon Christian principles. Those principles still form the majority culture here, however loosely actual Christian convictions might be held. Nobody would compel you to give over your Buddhism, nor prohibit you from displaying such, but you cannot rightly expect the dominant religious culture to subsidize minority religions. That would be like Christians in Japan expecting public acknowledgment of their faith in spite of the fact that Japan is not Christian in its religious culture but is Shinto. When in Rome, one accepts that Rome is not about what we want, but what Rome is on her own terms. You do have the freedom not to participate in the larger religious culture here without fear of persecution, but not the right to compel others to acknowledge what most people in this country simply don't practice.

so close and yet so far
The place where the religious mind walks off the map is when they think that PLURALISTIC TAX DOLLARS FROM AMERICANS should be funding ANYTHING that has a religious intent or expression.


There are too many Americans who believe differently and the religious should not be obligating society to pay for their ideology through prayer, through monetary endorsements of god/trust or one nation under god among the top ten.


This inherently disenfranchises Americans.


Religious people are protected to practice their religion without government interference, why must they insist then on interfering with government with their religion.


If government was willing to get out of their business why aren’t they willing to get out of the business of government?


Private businesses, such as a church is, can establish their personal subjective values and morals, discriminate anyone they wish and do as they desire.


Government funded ANYTHING must be unbiased and neutral in order to SUPPORT ALL AMERICANS WHOEVER THEY MAY BE AND WHATEVER THEY BELIEVE OR DON’T BELIEVE.


This is only achieved when the most objective perspective is endorsed and upheld. All other subjective ideologies go into their private businesses (churches) and do as they wish.


Government is not established to uphold your personal morals or values; it only serves the people to live their lives to decide those things for themselves without infringing on the civil liberties of their fellow Americans to do so.


Government ought not to be in the business of legislating morals or values; nor should they have the courts adjudicate morals or values – these are personal and subjective to each individual and up to that person to decide and create their derivations of such.


The religious just won’t get a clue on this subject.

Plain "good manners"
Andy R. got it exactly right!

Butr also a lot of trouble could be avoided with the practice of good old fashioned MANNERS.

Just as it is inappropriate behavior to stand up in the middle of the preacher's sermon and begin to recite "We the People..." so also it is inapropriate to stand up in the middle of a city council meeting and recite "The Lord is my Shepherd..."

Unfortunately, good manners are not taught much any more.


Founding
This nation was founded on FREEDOM, nothing more and nothing less.

Inferring christian values or any other "value" is an attempt to take ownership of the nation.

The American Dream is one of FREEDOM AND CHOICE for the individual to decide how his or her life can be lived through liberty toward a pursuit of personal happiness.

Stop attempting to complicate this by injecting your personal subjective ideology onto this nation.

If you don't believe in FREEDOM and FREE CHOICE, have the guts to step up and reveal yourself.

Let EVERYONE know that you want to control them; their decisions; their choices; their money; their thoughts - because every time you attempt to infer what our Founders "meant" you attempt to abscond the freedoms of your fellow Americans.

Step up cowards! Let yourselves be revealed for the frauds you are and reveal just how ANTI-AMERICAN YOU TRULY ARE!

Obsequious Posts!
I'm turned off by the unctuous readers who feel obligated to "suck-up" to TH columnists [as in the fawning "beautifully written article", the boot licking "keeper to be sent others", the servile "definitive reference piece for the future", the toad-eating "most clear and concise explanation I have ever seen", ad infinitun, adnauseum]. I'm reminded of the so-called customer "testimonials" seen on TV...so obviously contrived but presented with a straight face.

Jim-Too

Justice Black was a disaster!!
Wasn't he an FDR pick while Roosevelt the Lesser was trying to pack the court? I have to read up on him. Read "Men in Black". It will take the Court down a peg or two.

We've had absolute racists and bigots on the court including one who hated Brandeis and one who spoke of "not getting too close to your darkies". I kid you not!!

Some have probably been insane. There's no psych evaluation for Justices or an IQ test. Too bad. We could have been spared Ruth "buzzy" Ginsberg, Souter and Stevens.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!

Great Article
Ive never read a better article that explains the history of the First Amendment and what the liberal courts have done. Im prinitng this article ! Lets hope that Obama will have only one term to further erode this protection of the Free Exercise Clause by any appointments of liberal judges.

txtruman

You cannot possibly be that naive!

My parents were from Louisiana. I was a teenager during the Civil Rights movement. There were plenty of whites in the South who were "liberal" on economic issues . . . they supported unions against the "bosses" of business; they supported government help and welfare for "the working man" when it was thought he needed it; they supported the old Democratic Party because they thought it stood for the struggling workers more than the Republicans did; they supported the New Deal programs of Roosevelt, etc. They supported these "liberal" programs . . . for WHITES! They supported those programs even while some of them (those same "liberal" whites) were running around in sheets terrorizing blacks who only wanted the right to vote in peace and freely exercise THEIR Constitutional liberties. My own father was a man who could simultaneously hold pro-working class "liberal" views on economic issues while uttering the most bigoted, vile and vitriolic language against black people. Some of the most ILLIBERAL, dogmatic and intolerant people I have ever met have been those who call themselves liberals . . . and I say that as a FORMER Leftist and welfare-state "liberal" myself.

scooternyc at 9:35 AM
Personally, I would prefer MY tax dollars not go to fund any business that operates clearly in contradiction to MY religious beliefs, such as abortions provided by Planned Parenthood.

My belief in God and his moral principles lead me to be totally against abortions. So what am I to do? Should I sit down and shut up if I don't want my tax money to fund abortions?

May I ask you another question?

Since Thanksgiving is a FEDERAL holiday (a paid holiday for millions of workers), which was set aside as a day where this nation would come together to give thanks to GOD, for all of the blessings we have been given, are you advocating that we should eliminate this holiday, since it so clearly crosses the line between church and state? Or would you prefer the secular left alter the meaning of the holiday of Thanksgiving?


Happy Thanksgiving, Christopher
Thanks to you for writing such an informative column. I shall be printing this out to send to my brother who is a victim of the California higher education system. But of course, as he is liberal, he will just denounce it without having checked it out. I also need to send this to my nephew who has been getting zonked in a Wisconin college because of his conservative views. Something else to give thanks for on this day. Myself, I am not a very religious person as I don't believe I have to pray in a group in order to believe what I believe but I will stand up for people's rights to do so. Our rights are precious and every time one gets taken away or another ban is put in place it just demeans what this country stands for. I find it rather sad that too many Americans don't even understand what it means to be Americans anymore. But then again too many Americans also believe that the Democratic party is the party of people.

Also Misunderstood
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

This is further misunderstood in that, this does not mean the "establishment of" as in the creating of or guiding of, it means the Institution, the body, the existance of religion,in other words, Congress shall make no law respecting an "institution" of religion, the "entity or agency" of religion.

Perhaps it would be better understood in this manner; Congress shall make no law respecting an individuals right to breath, both RIGHTS given to us by GOD.

Also, the use of english at the time of the writting of the 2nd amendment is now being misunderstood by those who wish to revise our form of government to suit their misguided thinking so as to impose it on the rest of us, unfortunately those people are in positions of power, and still manage to get re-elected or re-appointed. That is the fault of the American voters, you will see clearer after Obama takes office. GOD HELP AMERICA!

This is only a good article...
...from the point of view of those who wish to impose their religion on others. Merola tortures the Constitution just as malevolently to arrive at his conclusions, as liberals torture the Constitution to arrive at their misguided interpretations.

The religious right and the anti-religious left have the same goal: they wish to impose their view of the world on others. The expansion of freedom is the only worthwhile goal of a free people.

Those who love God should join the side of the truly righteous. They should give up their desire for control of the "public square" and advocate freedom for all.

The religious set should assiduously lobby for the right to pay taxes on all Church property. They should lobby the IRS for the elimination of tax exempt status, so the government can no longer decide what constitutes a religion and what does not. They should also lobby for the repeal of drug laws which constitute nothing less than thinly veiled racist attempts to interfere with Native Americans' religious practices. They should lobby for the abolition of remaining "blue laws". There is no rational justification for Sunday restrictions on the sale of alcohol.

Do these things and you will be joining the side of freedom lovers. Do not do these things and remain forever maginalized.

Real simple!
It means I can put a Nativity on my front lawn, but I darn well can not put it on the steps of my city hall.


Protection from the state
It is truly amazing that so many Americans will bring up the phrase separation of church and state without even knowing the phrase does not exist in the First Amendment.Clearly, it is a result of a lack of reading and a strategic implementationby liberal professors and teachers to influence the thought process of our children. As a pastor, it is disheartening to see future generations being exposed to this calculated LIE.The First amendment is designed to protect the church form the state.

Perversion & Islamization of the U.S.
Separation of church and state has become so perverted. Today it means: 1) we must fight for Judeo-Christian symbols, values and practices to be allowed in the public square while our children are forced to learn and practice Islam in our public schools by teachers required to learn how to teach Islam, and 2) foot baths are installed in public places for Muslims when there are none in Islamic countries outside mosques.
Obama has declared the U.S. is no longer a Christian nation. That means of course the U.S. once was a Christian nation but is no more if we let his proclamiation stand in defiance of our heritage.

Ace:
If I may, I'd like to offer my answer to your question?

The federal government is not authorized under the Constitution to declare certain days as holidays. Not just as a matter of Church and State issues, but because it violates businessmen's right to receive work in exchange for the wages they pay.

Before the government overstepped its bounds, many businessmen offered time off for certain days. Some opted to make them paid days off, and some did not. That, my friend, is freedom.

Workers also exercise their freedom by choosing which men they would work for, and which they would not. That's freedom.

If you want choice for yourself, you must always opt for choice for others. The struggle we are all engaged in is not about religion versus non-religion. The struggle is about freedom versus non-freedom.

ace 10:05
Abraham Lincoln's proclamation on Oct. 3, 1863 just weeks before delivering his Gettysburg address, reads in part as follows:

"I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."

Lincoln "invites" and "recommends" he does not mandate that we participate in the giving of thanks. The Federal Government may set aside today as a day to give thanks. It cannot make us do so. This is evidenced by the many businesses which choose to run Thanksgiving day sales without facing government sanction. This is the balance which Christopher so clearly elucidates in his piece. Thanksgiving would only cross that line if we sent out storm troopers to ensure enforcement. Exaggeration does not do our argument justice.

Afterthought
After reading some of the posts in here (and elswhere) it appears many people are trying to argue something they are ignorant of, why don't they search and find and read the address to the Danbury Baptists of Jan. 1, 1802. Then come back.

I carry a tattered copy of his statement in my wallet. Here is what Thomas Jefferson said about "separation of church and state."

"The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall, it keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian princiles will always stay in government."

It just dawned on me I referred to the 2nd amendment in a previous post, I ment the 1st amendment. Sorry. BUT, we cannot have the one without the other, can we? Those framers of the Constitution of the United States of America were wise people.

Rule of Law based on Divine Law…

Those who deny history or who have redefined it in terms of secularism don’t want to be reminded of the real history. They do not want to hear that the first amendment has been misinterpreted. They think that the corrupt judges have discovered the real meaning because it couldn’t mean what the Founders meant.

The colonial Puritans under the leadership of men like Jonathan Edwards saw the error of the English and Catholic Churches. They modified their confession of faith to remove church authority over the civil magistrate and said he has no authority to enforce the first tablet of the Law. Without their support there would be no first amendment.

http://www.reformedbaptistapologetics.blogspot.com/2007/05/ another-area-in-which-there-is.html


Even before the change there is no statement in their confession that the magistrate should take and distribute property in a socialistic manner. Rather, it is his duty to “defend and encourage” them that “are good,” and to provide “punishment of evil doers”. The magistrate is empowered by God to enforce the outward observance of God’s commands, codified in “the wholesome laws of each commonwealth”. These laws of God include private ownership of property, as the Eighth Commandment stipulates.

Now that secularism is the dominate influence in the culture the liberties of life, property and conscience are being trampled under foot by the state instituted to insure them. The Constitution is only as good as the men appointed to uphold and defend it. When men lie when they take the oath of office, we the people are insured to get what we voted for.

David, your claim is pure fantasy...
Please, get your facts straight

Jefferson made no such statement, either in the Danbury Baptist letter or in any of his other writings. No professional accommodationist scholar gives Barton's claim the slightest credence. Still, the story continues to circulate, and has now become so widely disseminated among religious right activists that it has all but assumed the status of a religious "urban legend."

Jefferson's Letter to Danbury Baptists
David, Sorry to pop your bubble.

From the Library of Congress:

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Separation
Let's face it religion has always been polarizing, even generally pacifist Buddhists. Mocking religions and hence people’s core beliefs does nothing constructive. I believe everyone (individuals) has the right to follow their religious beliefs in peace but the problem is that individuals have this need to congregate and these groups now want to proselytize (self-centered delusion that they have THE truth). Proselytizing is the problem here. Pushing your religious views on others because “they need saving” and that does not belong in a public forum. Can you imagine the chaos of applying "the fairness doctrine" for all religions in public? In islam the proselytizing is too often done under duress and threat; that is their MO. The Franciscans who hung on the bloodthirsty coat tails of the conquistadors forced religion down the natives’ throats. The Inquisition was certainly no model of restraint nor were the crusades. And the beat goes on. All this creates major friction and long-term animosity. Solution: Keep your religion to yourself and practice it in private or in small unpretentious congregations. If you truly project sainthood maybe others will want to emulate you (in today’s sick world probably less than .000001%) and you can prudently welcome them into your inner sanctum if you choose.

Insighting Truth 10:28
People of faith have an obligation to express their faith in the public square. Hiding in the catacombs is for totalitarian regimes not free people. I don't know what "public square" you have been observing but the American media is saturated with secularists who take offense at a mere seasonal greeting such as "Merry Christmas" or use "Pilgrim" as a pejorative. People of faith are being told in so many ways that its OK to practice your faith as long as you don't practice it anywhere where someone that might disagree with you could see it. Unfortunately, many Christians have succombed to this media drumbeat and are hiding their light under the proverbial bushel. In the face of such attitudinal and actual discrimination it is time for Christians and other people of faith to let their light shine before men that they may see their good works...

Separation of Church and State
It's amazing how atheists,secularists, humanists, etc., fail to let the facts of history get in the way of their ideologies.
The Constitution is very clear on this subject.
People of Faith have kept silent and let others trample on their first amendment rights.
This article by Cristopher Merola should appear on the front page of every newspaper but of course it will never happen.
Bob Lanier

Danbury Baptist letter
Not to be picky with a great tought out and well-written piece, but TJ's letter was to the Danbury Baptists, not the Danville Baptists.

Jim-Too & Insight
Jim-Too. I defy you to prove that what I stated was NOT the most clear and concise explanation I have ever seen. It’s simple, ya can’t prove otherwise, bubba. For the record, I’m a 100% disabled, retired Army LTC (proud mustang) and don’t feel obligated to suck up to anyone.

First of all, my statement regarding it’s conciseness is factual. The article has great buzz words and facts to destroy purely emotional rantings of liberals who substitute yelling and name calling as real debate.

Like Insight, FL, you seem to fear that people who worship want to impose their religion on the rest of society. Nothing could be more insane. After all, if everybody was a Christian, I would be deprived of being entertained by Dog the Bounty Hunter or Cops.

Nobody wants to cram religion down your throat. People like Insight flatter themselves. How’s this: I’m not a Christian but I believe in hell. And personally, don’t expect people like me to pray for you. I hope people like you and Insight die and go to hell.

Christians or not, we just want to live in a society where our daughters, granddaughters are comfortable walking down a hall in middle school without a complete stranger, a total defecation apparatus, asking them for a BJ.

And when a complaint is lodged, the only explanation given by the liberal principal is that they learned about it in sex education that day. Christians or not, we should not have to tolerate uncivilized behavior.

Not everybody who calls themselves a conservative is a Christian but we can hold certain civilized values and absolute truths inviolate.

In addition, we don’t have to apologize to atheists or agnostics. And what obviously rubs liberals the wrong way is that we’re fighting back.

Government Has Established a Religion
Atheism is a Religious Belief.
The Supreme Court and other government agencies are using atheist/secularist beliefs to restrict the free worship of God by other religions

What?

What does the voluntary free exercise of religious speech in a public square, by the believers of ANY religion, have to do with an unconstitutional GOVERNMENT favoritism or financial support for any PARTICULAR religion? As long as the government does not discriminate against ANY religious belief, or non-belief, then what is unconstitutional about allowing the temporary seasonal display of religious symbols in a public forum or public property . . . as long as those displays are not paid for by public funds, and as long as they do not interfere with free access and public business? Just because GOVERNMENT is not supposed to ESTABLISH or favor a particular religious belief, or non-belief, does not mean that it is violating the Constitution by simply allowing the voluntary free expression of religious belief in a public forum. Free speech should be free speech, regardless of whether its content is religious or secular.

Words
Those who like to use the words attributed to Jefferson usually do so to rationalize their desire to get rid of God in the public sphere or to prevent funds from going to persons/agencies that are faith based. Neither of these desires are consistent with the vision of the Founding Fathers nor of Jefferson. Happy Thanksgiving.

Got to love Jefferson!

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).

So Al ...
Are you saying that Jefferson's words are not consistent with his visions?

Robert
"Atheism is a Religious Belief".

I have to chuckle every time I hear that old saw. So absence of belief is a belief. That logic is as twisted as Merola's entire column.

Freedom
Excellent point. Perhaps we should boycott the retailer that does not honor the Merry Christmas that most of us have grown up with. WalMart is the only store that recognizes Christmas and they are doing fine.When their holiday sales, oops, I mean Christmas sales decline, maybe they will realize that we Christians have some rights and are offended also. Merry Christmas.

To Dreamer
"Are you saying that Jefferson's words are not consistent with his visions?"

No, he's saying that his words are consistent with his visions. You just understand his visions incorrectly. A pretty common failing of the Christian right.

Ronald
"Obama has declared the U.S. is no longer a Christian nation"

Can you please provide the exact quote and the date, time and place of such?

WRH Bill 9:27
No one is asking the government to support any particular religion. People of faith, however, would like the government to get out of the way of the free exercise thereof. We don't ask for active government support. However, respect and an abolition of religious persecution and discrimination should be the order of the day.

Cavell
Calling me "Christian Right" is fightin' words. The biggest insult I can imagine.

I am not talking about MY visions. I am talking about Al's post. He starts out by decrying those who use Jefferson's words. Then he states that they are not consistent with the visions of the Founding Fathers.

Seems to contradict himself.

kleindo2
"No one is asking the government to support any particular religion."

No one? That's a pretty broad statement.

I hate to break it to you, but there are plenty who want state-sponsored Christianity. And they are proud to do so loudly and clearly. Check with your favorite TV preacher.

Dreamer 12:22pm
" So absence of belief is a belief. That logic is as twisted as Merola's entire column."

It takes an act of faith to believe there is no God. It cannot be proven. Agnostics are much more honest about it than true athiests. When someone is firmly convinced of something that is not provable that makes them a true believer.
Not twisted at all.

kleindo2
You, like so many believers, do not understand atheism. You use the term "true atheists" as though you know what it means.

"It takes an act of faith to believe there is no God".

I hear that tired old phrase so many times, it is sickening to think that there are so many believers who actually think that way. I do not "believe there is no God". I simply have no belief at all. That may seem like an insignificant difference to you, but it is a world of difference to me. And I don't go around trying to convince people to convert to my side (evangelize).

I think what you are confusing me with is "anti-theists", such as many of the outspoken ones like Hitchens, et al. They are the ones who profess "there is no god". "True Atheists", as you put it, are just regular people like you who go about their business day-to-day, who don't happen to have a deity-based belief system. Everything else may be the same, but they don't spend time worshipping and running their life with that as a backdrop.

I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions you have been led to accept about atheists.

kleindo2 is right
The mere mention of the "seperation" issue or Merry Christmas sets liberals into a tailspin.

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas!

Both are celebrations of God's bountiful blessings bestowed upon the just and the unjust.

How many atheists or agnostics went to work today...hmmmmm?




kleindo2
"It cannot be proven" (that there is no God).

Of course not. I would have to search out every corner of the universe to prove there is no Christian God. And even then, he could have moved around to avoid my search.

Also, and it should be obvious to you, that the burden of proof is on the one who makes the assertion. You say there is a God, then prove it.

stiritup05
Your sarcasm notwithstanding, I am atheist and I didn't go to work. My company gave me a couple days off with pay. What's your point?

I'm so glad that you are so certain about "liberals" going into a tailspin (as though it were true). I dislike liberals and conservatives alike, but that doesn't have any effect upon my atheism, which is based upon logic and reasoning, not political persuasion.

stiritup05
Oh, yes and I would say that it is more when they see "Happy Holidays" that the religious nuts go into a tailspin. In fact, O'Reilly makes a living at it.

Kleindo2:
I will stand with you at any place and on any occasion where you display your faith on private property, or in any venue which you rent, lease, or secure by trade. You may with my best wishes, protection if necessary, proclaim your faith on public sidewalks, parks, or reserves, up to the point where your proclamations become inflammatory or obnoxious.

Will you likewise stand with me, and denounce each and every religion inspired imposition on my life and my pocket book? Will you oppose every blue law, no matter how insignificant the imposition seems to be? Will you stand with me when I stand with those who desire freedom from religion? Will you advocate equally vociferously for the elimination of "In God We Trust" from our currency? Will you help me return the Pledge of Allegiance to its original form, sans the "under God" declaration? Will you?

argue better
You guys missed by point entirely. I wasn't actually expressing disagreement with the content of Merola's article (although I do disagree with it). I was pointing out how utterly unconvincing it is. And I just had to react to those who seemed to think otherwise. I think its fair to conclude that the only reason they praised the article is because it reinforced their existing positions. Its not hard to convince someone who already agrees with you.

And I know that I can look up the cases invovled. But shouldn't Merola have explained them? Maybe they're relevant to his points, but there's no evidence of that in his article. It reads like the shallowest propaganda.

Is townhall.com just an echo chamber for people who don't want to think about the issues, just be told they're right? Can't it be better than that? Can you try to convince me that I'm wrong without calling me a fifth grader? Can townhall.com writers write better than a sixth grader? C'mon, I honestly think both you and townhall.com can do much better.

dreamer
I suppose it is possible that there are those in a pluralistic society who would like to force there beliefs and practices on others through force of law. Sort of like all those ACLU attorneys who sue over free religious expression issues annually. Therefore, let me amend my comment to "No one, of good conscience, is asking the government to support any particular religion." The establishment clause expressly prohibits that. That is precisely what the Founders were protecting against. The government establishment of religion always hurts the religion as much as the government. The free exercise clause, however, is being ignored by today's secularists. It does not establish a religion to sing "Silent Night" or to allow a Menorah or Creche on public property. Not allowing them, however, could be interpreted as denying the free exercise thereof. Denying speech is something to which those on the left are generally opposed. If you are concerned about taxpayer dollars, there are plenty of businesses and private benefactors who would provide funds and manpower to pay for the construction, disassembly and storage of such exhibits.

God-haters in an affected context
The God-haters now argue political technicalities from a conditioned perspective that has been created only as a result of legislation enacted to surpress what previously was the cultural consensus of a free people, and imagine themselves free thinkers and legally profound.

SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
NOW IF ALL THE LAWYERS WOULD READ THIS

kleindo2
I appreciate your candor and your minimal conciliation. I think your amended statement doesn't really say much. Most of the TV preachers and foundations such as "Focus on the Family" would seem to be "in good conscience" (even as I don't agree that they are). But unfortunately, a line must be drawn to determine what is and what is not, "establishment of religion", so that we can determine what can be ruled in all circumstance and not have to litigate each one individually (as ACLU likes to do, as you have correctly pointed out).

The simplest and boldest line that could be drawn is to completely separate church and state. Why would that be so bad for the churches? My only idea about it is that they wouldn't be able to have government sanction for their religion. Is there another explanation that I am missing? I mean churches wouldn't be stifled from practicing or even proselytizing on private property. Why do they need government sanction?

Religion in the public forum
As Merola rightly pointed out, the phrase coined by Jefferson of “wall of separation of Church and State” is not contained in the Constitution. The constitution says, “Congress,” not the state, “shall make not law respecting the establishment of religion.” However, it was left to the states to establish a determined religion without violating the constitution. Actually, many states had an established church, which was funded by citizens. Because the first amendment applies to the Congress and not to the states, it could not be construed to be a violation.

In other words, the real meaning of the first amendment teaches us that the government cannot censor expression of faith in society because it is a natural right. This means that students should not be denied their right to read the bible in public schools, recite the Lord’s Prayer, to have the Ten Commandments posted in public schools. It also, means that display of Christmas scenes, Easter celebrations and Thanksgiving observations are not to be denied by authorities or anti-Christian groups under false pretenses.

Finally, the concept of religion separated from civil affairs is subjective. Before the making of the constitution, Pilgrims as well as Puritans, lived their Christianity with a high degree of devotion. After the making of the Constitution, Americans continued living their faith under a common faith: Christianity.

It is time that we Christians live openly our faith in the public without fear or retaliation and be ready to defend our rights under the Constitution, if it is possible all the way to the Supreme Court.

dreamer
"Why do they need government sanction?"

When one considers that "government" used to mean "the people", you question answers itself.

Practice Religion; It is our Right
As Merola rightly pointed out, the phrase coined by Jefferson of “wall of separation of Church and State” is not contained in the Constitution. The constitution says, “Congress,” not the state, “shall make not law respecting the establishment of religion.” However, it was left to the states to establish a determined religion without violating the constitution. Actually, many states had an established church, which was funded by citizens. Because the first amendment applies to the Congress and not to the states, it could not be construed to be a violation.

In other words, the real meaning of the first amendment teaches us that the government cannot censor expression of faith in society because it is a natural right. This means that students should not be denied their right to read the bible in public schools, recite the Lord’s Prayer, to have the Ten Commandments posted in public schools. It also, means that display of Christmas scenes, Easter celebrations and Thanksgiving observations are not to be denied by authorities or anti-Christian groups under false pretenses.

It is time that we Christians live openly our faith in the public without fear or retaliation and be ready to defend our rights under the Constitution, if it is possible all the way to the Supreme Court.

Jefferson’s letter to the Baptist

DAVID Location: MA
Reply # 46
Date: Nov 27, 2008 - 10:43 AM EST
Subject: Afterthought

I carry a tattered copy of his statement in my wallet. Here is what Thomas Jefferson said about "separation of church and state."

======

Well David, you are only about the one hundredth million to mis-read that letter.

It says the following, which is an interpretation of the Constitution, not a part of it.

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

=====

My copy of the Constitution says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, …” and on and on.

The American Heritage Dictionary says — “Establishment: Something established, as an established church.” “Establishing: To set up; to bring about; to introduce.” a word not used in the Constitution.

Think about it, the Crystal Cathedral is “an establishment of religion,” the First Baptist Church is “an establishment of religion,” a Synagogue is “an establishment of religion,” and the Catholic Cathedral is “an establishment of religion.” Someone starting a new religion is “establishing a religion,” a word with a different meaning, a word not mentioned in the Constitution.

The Constitution says Congress shall make no laws respecting an established place of worship, it says nothing about the Government establishing a religion of its own. Maybe the authors of the Constitution wrote other documents on the subject, but the Constitution is clear.

It would seem to me that if the government makes a law that determines what can be said in an establishment of religion, it has violated the portion that says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”


It Means What It Says!
If the Constitution of the United States of America does not mean EXACTLY what it says, according to definition of the words AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN then there is no point in having a written Constitution at all.

SEPARATION?
I WONDER IF THIS COULD BE TAUGHT IN OUR COLLEGES,OR DO YOU THINK THE PROFFESSOR WOULD TRASH IT.

kleindo2
In response to another point regarding "force of law". I don't think that the majority of religious zealots like Dobson, Robertson, et al, want to force everyone to believe in their god or practice their religion, per se. I think they want to legislate their issues, after which naturally comes adherence to their credo.

Now of course, the voters will make up their minds whether to legislate them or not. But what does not seem right are the churches donating large sums of money to advertise their issues in order to get them legislated. The huge Mormon and Catholic donations to the Prop 8 in CA comes to mind. They are using money that has not been subject to taxation. If tax exemption were to be eliminated for them, then I say, go for it.

I see the Prop 8 issue as a gross violation of the principle of separation of church and state. Which by the way, may not be in the Constitution in words, but certainly is there in spirit.

Tell This To The Islamic Terrorists!
I think your message needs to be sent to all of the Islamic terrorists who are intent on threatening and forcing the U.S. to accept their political beliefs under the guise of religion on a country who believe that there is a separation between religion and government and therefore, they need to re-focus and stop wasting their time trying to take over the U.S. by attempting to establish a separate government in our country, because We The People who are true American citizens born on this soil and love our country like it just the way it is - we're not the UK or the Netherlands or Africa - We're the United States of America and we intend to stay that way!

dreamer 1:13
My point exactly. You cannot prove it to me. I cannot prove it to you. It is an article of faith. You admit you cannot know the truth in the matter and yet you cling to the belief that your conclusion from the evidence is correct, just as I conclude from the same evidence that you are not. Faith. We are both true believers.

Mother of 4
Ah, if it were only that simple. "The Constitution means what it says", cry the "literalists".

Then why don't we just feed the words of the Constitution into a computer and let it make all the decisions?

The fact is that the Constitution is not specific enough on many issues to cover today's complex issues. So we must interpret the meanings of the authors of it. Both sides, even in the Supreme Court, claim to have insider information of what the Forefathers meant. That's why most of their decisions are divided.

But I do appreciate your innocence.

Separation of Church and State
I am a licensed to practice before the U.S. Supreme Court and am astounded that the citizens of the United States of America have become so sheep-like that they will swallow the crap the U.S. Supreme Court has been spouting for the last eighty or so years.

Fourth grade school children can do a much better job interpreting the Constitution than can the U.S. Supreme Court because the children will read it as written while the liberal, left-wing members of the Court will make every effort to re-write it as they see fit.

The citizens of the United States should consider just ignoring the crackpot opinions authored by these left-wing, liberal nuts.

Government sanction???/ Or personal??
A teacher often expresses their ideology in the classroom. Sometimes very distorted.

The question is weather they represent the state or personal. Hard to separate the two.

Personally, I wished the government would withhold my money from education and see what people are really willinng to pay for. Most of this ideology would disappear.

Let Freedom Ring, pull the funds and amazing the radicalism is gone.

False Religion
"That said, this is a nation founded upon Christian principles."

It is past time Christians gave up their false faith and returned to the one true religion. Judaism.

If it was good enough for Jesus it is good enough for me.

That is why the nation is in so much trouble - it follows a false faith. Return to your true roots. Return to being Jews.

===

The above added to provide a little balance. ;-) Happy Thanksgiving.

kleindo2
"It takes an act of faith to believe there is no God. "

The exact opposite is true. You had to be taught to believe in god. You weren't born with that belief. Most likely you were taught by your parents your particular faith as I was. Later I realized that religious faith required a lot of effort and wasn't based on any rational base. The only time it ever comes up is when zealots like this author insists that I should be adhering to his faith.

Besides thanksgiving at its roots is just a harvest festival. Every culture has one. The US put a religious spin on it. My friends and i will be thankful for our friendships and our successes this year. 'god' doesn't enter into the picture at all.

Where to pray?
In a closet.

I think some Jewish guy said that. No wonder Christians aren't paying him any mind.

kleindo2
I still can't get through to you. No offense intended. Please re-read my post at 1:08. I simply do not have a belief one way or the other. I just don't think about it.

Maybe if I give an example. Let's say a newborn baby. Since the baby cannot think, it has no belief system one way or another. Even though its parents have one, it is too immature in brain function to have a belief system. Therefore it is an atheist by definition. ("A" meaning "without", and "theist" meaning one who has a deity-based belief system - therefore, "one who is without a deity-based belief system"). I have to say it one more time:

An atheist is "without a deity-based belief system". I simply do not think about it, or base my life upon it, or worship or prosyletize, or evangelize about atheism. Religion is just not a part of my life. I only call myself an atheist for the purpose of identification.

As I said before, you probably have me confused with anti-theism, such as Hitchens, Dawkins, et al, who openly say "there is no god". Atheism, without anti-theism, is neutral on the subject of religion. Agnostics on the other hand, think about religion a lot.

Don
Of course you invalidated your post when you went political. Please read my 2:15 post. I guess you must have inside information about the 'intent' of the Forefathers.

Why don't we just put the Constitution into a computer and let it make the decisions?

Simon
"That is why the nation is in so much trouble - it follows a false faith. Return to your true roots. Return to being Jews."

Nonesense! the true conservative religion is Sun Worship! After all the Christians chose the day of the feast of Sol Invictus for celebrating Christs birth!

Merry Sol Invictus to all!

Yoshi
There seems to be a modest difference of opinion. A Civil War should sort it out.

New word needed?
Dear dreamer in MN...

We give thanks today for family, friends, and a life that to us is not an accident of creation for which we give no thought.

Those who contend that their adult mind is the same as their infant status concerning belief in God is neutral because they do not sense having ever understood the question. To be ignorant of the question and therefore neutral to it is very close to what a lot of folks might call true ignorance.

Happy holiday to you anyway!

Merola is Wrong
Here is the problem with prayer in public schools, from a libertarian perspective.

There is no problem with students privately praying. There is a huge problem with the teacher, a government employee, leading the students in prayer. In doing so, the teacher is violating the establishment clause.

This brings up the corollary issue that, in a free society, there would be no such thing as public (that is, government established) schools.

In a free society, parents would choose the schools they send their kids to. If you wanted to send your kid to a Catholic school, including prayers, mass, confession--you name it--you would do so in a free society.

Jewish kids could go to Hebrew School. Mormon kids could go to Mormon School. Atheists could establish completely secular schools. Every school would be supported only by those who endorsed its teachings. There would be no need for conflict or public debate about whether or not children prayed in school.

The problem with most "conservatives" is that they do not want to establish a free society. Instead, they just want to take over the state machinery and skew things in their direction. They don't want freedom of choice in schools and religion; they just want the schools to teach religion as they want it taught.

Keepontryon
How did I know that someone would take my analogy and infer a comparison to infancy? Geez, get more original.

Ignorance does not imply stupidity. Also, I have plenty of experience and information on Christianity, as well as other religions. I have simply decided to ignore it. So I don't apply it to my life, just as a baby doesn't.

There are 27 major religions on this planet. You think that 26 of them are wrong. I think that 27 of them are wrong. We are not so different, you and I.

Religion has never hurt me or my family

Religion has never hurt me or my family.

Liberals have. Lets separate Liberals.

Why Merola is Right
A libertarian point of view is irrelevant at this point. The idea that a teacher or government employee is in a “violation” of a doctrine that is not even in the Constitution (separation of church and state) is a tapestry and abnormality. There is nothing in the constitution that back up that claim.

The bedrock our liberties is precisely the free exercise of our faith in the public marketplace with not interference of government. The reason is simple, government with power to censor religion is tyrannical and despot. And because the government does NOT give us freedom of religion, it cannot take away something from the citizens.

In America religion, particularly the Christian religion, is the foundation of its own freedom and political liberty. Therefore, public schools cannot be “neutral” or “secular” regarding to religion. Our founders understood that morality is based on the Judeo-Christian religion. As a reminder, public schools never were “neutral” on religion in America. And check this out, they were not “conservatives,” they were Americans who understood that the foundation of our Republic way of government is the recognition of God as the giver and creator of our fundamental rights.

Ken
Religion has hurt you and I both. If churches paid income taxes, property taxes and other taxes, our tax burden would be much smaller as citizens. And we would have more money to spend every month.

It has also hurt all citizens by enacting religious-based laws that we do not agree with. It is only a matter of time before it affects you directly, if not already indirectly.

How have liberals hurt you? Did they shoot you with their guns? Did they abort your fetuses? Did they invade your gay marriage ceremony? Did they send your sons to fight an immoral war? Did they keep your terminally-ill wife alive despite your objections? Did they force your children to pray in school? Did they deport your parents to Mexico? Did they give tax breaks to the CEO of your company?

dreamer 1:40
I agree Focus on the Family acts in good conscience. While the issues they support are germane to the practice of Christian and other religious faiths they are also issues which pertain to an orderly society. It is the responsibility of all citizens to bring their heartfelt beliefs to the public square in hopes of producing a healthy functioning society for all.
As pertaining to the wall of seperation, the pendulum has swung so far in the direction of seperation it is difficult to imagine any greater seperation than currently exists.
When you use the term "government sanction" I assume you mean government approval not government punishment, admittedly a strange word which means its opposite. The government should not be in the practice of approving or disapproving any particular religion in a tangible way. That would be the government establishing religion.

Ronald - Where is the quote from Obama?
Ronald, you stated,

"Obama has declared the U.S. is no longer a Christian nation. That means of course the U.S. once was a Christian nation but is no more if we let his proclamiation stand in defiance of our heritage"

Where is your reference?

DREAMER IN Mn
KEN ITS GUYS LIKE YOU THAT ARE DESTROYING THE FOUNDATION ON WHICH THIS COUNTRY WAS ESTABLISHED!

For those of you ...
who continually say "Separation of Church and State is not in the Constitution", I ask you this:

Are you saying that Church and State should NOT be separate? I know that many of you have said so in this forum.

If not, then where do you draw the line?

Specific morals are not the property of one religion or another or atheists. We are not a "nation founded upon Christian principles". We were founded upon principles and morals that are agreed upon by Christians, Jews and religions, non-religions and clubhouse gangs alike. Our forefathers specifically rejected religious-only laws because that is what they rejected in their European countries. We voted in those who wrote the Constitution to represent what we all wanted, not just what Christians wanted. We the people decide what is best for us, not what Christian churches decide.

We are diverse, so we must make laws that apply to all of us, and therefore must be general enough to cover us all, religious and non-religious alike.

Those of you who advocate non-separation of church and state are commonly known as Theocrats.



India's People Now Live In Fear!
The UK and the Netherlands and Africa and now India live in fear of the Islamic terrorists who have carefully strategized, plotted, and organized - they, too, are great community organizers, but their goal is to kill and destroy and deceive and take over the world and their target in India was you and me and your families and friends should we have been visiting in India today. But, they don't intend to stop and they boast of their intent to wipe out America and Israel next and whoever else they can intimidate and threaten and force their equal government into their countries under the guise of religion by taking advantage and being allowed to misinterpret our freedom of religion law. Our law separates church and religion and thus, using church or charities for political terror isn't allowed in the U.S., but in the mean time, our government needs to close our borders and make it extremely difficult to enter our country at this time since the Islamic terrorists have declared war on America and will not stop, so why should we wait for some thing to happen on our soil?

DREAMER
GO BACK TO RUSSIA WHERE YOU BELONG,OR IS IT CHINA? EITHER ONE, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE FREEDOM YOU SO MUCH ENJOY NOW!

kleindo2 3:38
Christianity (and particularly Focus on the Family and their ilk) do not have a monopoly on "issues which pertain to an orderly society". Those issues can certainly be addressed without Christian coercion. I think the First Amendment was designed with that underpinning (that our laws can be separated from religion because religion doesn't necessarily have a lock on issues which pertain to an orderly society). For instance, FOTF certainly has a right to oppose abortion, but IMHO, it is a stretch to think they oppose it for the purposes of pertaining to an orderly society. In that case, I don't think they have "good conscience" in mind. It is mostly ideology.

Why must there be a pendulum? Can't we just make secular laws that accomplish what the churches want too? After all, we are a nation of believers and non-believers alike. We should be able to make all-encompassing laws.

STAN
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

So you don't want me to have freedoms? I only want freedoms from religious coercion. They have religious coercion in places like Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, etc.

Should we have a theocracy here too?

progressives and faith
1. If you progressives find us conservatives and Catholics and Christians such neanderthals then why do you troll here? 2. Marxism demands that faith be destroyed so all of you progressives arguing against faith are just useful idiots for the Marxist movement. 3. How come you guys never demand that Islamist in this nation keep their faith in the house? How come you guys were not heard when universities had to accomodate (appease) practicing Islamists with foot baths, separate gym hours for women, loud speakers announcing the call to prayer, cabbies denying fairs, etc??? Because you are afraid of Islam that's why. Cowards that you are. How come you never complain when Jews erect menorahs in public? Because they are a solid and wealthy voting block that's why. So don't argue with us that you are arguing from a position of principal. 4. If we are not a Christian nation then where did we get our laws from? Now I know your answer but recall that human law is based on God's rules. If God did not state that killing was wrong, we would not have a law against it. Wiggle out of that one. 5. Dreamer your last arguments are the best. But we are not asking the govenrment to do what we say, we are asking that the government and the legal system to leave us alone. You are distorting TJ's letter for the sake of arguing. We do not want a theocracy. But we realize a nation without a moral foundation or beliefs is a nation doomed to repeat what happened in Naze Germany or Rome. Argue that one. 6. I did not hear you progressives argue against Catholics and Christians fighting against Hitler's Nazi regime? I dare you go to Arlington and remove the crosses from that sacred ground. See how quickly you lose the use of your arms and mouth. See what secularism has brought us: 50 million abortions. What is next if we totally remove religion?

none
1. I am not a progressive. And I am not trolling, I am trying to learn more about religious bigotry and how it develops.
2. I am not trying to destroy your faith, just trying to avoid religious coercion.
3. Islamists in this country generally do keep their religion private. Of course there are exceptions as in all religions, but they are much less obtrusive than Christians in this country. FYI, I and probably most progressives object to the favoritism of Islamists, as well as Christians. It is "religious favoritism" by the government that we object to. You aren't listening. We object to menorahs just as loudly as mangers on public property.
4. We got our laws from all of us. Remember that the government is us. We make the laws. How can human law be based on "God's Law" if God doesn't exist? Your argument is circular. Here's some wiggling for you. "Thou shalt not kill" existed thousands of years before Christianity was invented. It is an inherent trait of humans. If not, we wouldn't even be here. Exceptions are a small minority.
5. I am only asking the same thing: that the government leave us alone and not push religion at us. I'll argue that one too. Morality is not the property of religion. Morality is as secular as the built-in ethical system within all of us. So you don't want a theocracy? Do you want a partial theocracy? Who determines how much religion to inject into the government, and which laws in particular should be sectarian?
6. There were plenty of other religions and non-religions involved in fighting Hilter. Look up "Godwin's Law". You have already lost your argument once you invoke Hitler and Nazis. What's up with the "dare's". I don't want to remove religion from anybody, just to be free from their coercion. Isn't that what we all want? Freedom, religious or otherwise?

dreamer from MN
Actually religions are setting a good example because nobody should be forced to pay income taxes. Nobody should be forced to pay property taxes.

The Federal Government got along fine for the first 150 years with no income taxes and local governments got along fine for the same amount of time with virtually no property tax.

Actually Religious organization save taxpayers more money than they would ever pay in taxes.

They operate schools, hospitals, senior citizens homes, youth programs, health program, rehab programs. All more effectively and efficently then government.

Your King George version of good government where everyone pays more taxes just doesn't work.

Heres the part Liberals just can't grasp. Taxes hurt people. The higher the tax, the more people are hurt. The more taxes, the more people that are hurt. For every dollar liberals take off of me in taxes, that is one less dollar I have for my own healthcare, my kids education, my retirement, my future. So Yes I can safely say religion has never hurt me or my family, but Liberals have.

Read it, Obey it, or Amend it.

Just remember, every word in the Constitution can be amended any time enough of the right people want to change it, instructions are included.

Remember a few years ago when Gore said the Constitution did not refer to his phone calls from his office, because the telephone did not exist when it was written.

I took that to mean the freedom of the press did not mean TV and computers, or the radio, or a fancy printing press, because none of those things existed when it was written.

So if you don’t like what it says, have it amended.

Ken
Regarding taxes, I agree with you. We don't need them or