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Friday, June 26, 2009
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Iran: Desperately Seeking Yeltsin
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- Iran today is a revolution in search of its Yeltsin. Without leadership, demonstrators will take to the street only so many times to face tear gas, batons and bullets. They need a leader like Boris Yeltsin: a former establishment figure with newly revolutionary credentials and legitimacy, who stands on a tank and gives the opposition direction by calling for the unthinkable -- the abolition of the old political order.

Right now the Iranian revolution has no leader. As this is written, opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has not appeared in public since June 18. And the Khamenei-Ahmadinejad regime has shown the requisite efficiency and ruthlessness at suppressing widespread unrest. Their brutality has been deployed intelligently. The key is to atomize the opposition. Start with the most sophisticated methods to block Internet and cell phone traffic, thanks to technology provided by Nokia Siemens Networks. Allow the more massive demonstrations to largely come and go -- avoiding Tiananmen-style wholesale bloodshed -- but disrupt the smaller ones with street-side violence and rooftop snipers, the perfect instrument of terror. Death instant and unseen, the kind that only the most reckless and courageous will brave.

Terror visited by invisible men. From rooftops by day. And by night, swift and sudden raids that pull students out of dormitories, the wounded out of hospitals, for beatings and disappearances.

For all our sentimental belief in the ultimate triumph of those on the "right side of history," nothing is inevitable. This second Iranian revolution is on the defensive, even in retreat. To recover, it needs mass, because every dictatorship fears the moment when it gives the order to the gunmen to shoot at the crowd. If they do (Tiananmen), the regime survives; if they don't (Romania's Ceausescu), the dictators die like dogs. The opposition needs a general strike and major rallies in the major cities -- but this time with someone who stands up and points out the road ahead.

Desperately seeking Yeltsin. Does this revolution have one? Or to put it another way, can Mousavi become Yeltsin?

President Obama's worst misstep during the Iranian upheaval occurred early on when he publicly discounted the policy differences between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Mousavi.

True, but that overlooked two extremely important points. First, while Mousavi himself was originally only a few inches to Ahmadinejad's left on the political spectrum -- being hand-picked by the ruling establishment precisely for his ideological reliability -- Mousavi's support was not restricted to those whose views matched his. He would have been the electoral choice of everyone to his left, a massive national constituency -- liberals, liberalizers, secularists, monarchists, radicals and visceral opponents of the entire regime -- that dwarfs those who shared his positions, as originally held.

Moreover, Mousavi's positions have changed, just as he has. He is far different today from the Mousavi who began this electoral campaign.

Revolutions are dynamic, fluid. It is true that two months ago there was little difference between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi. But that day is long gone. Revolutions outrun their origins. And they transform their leaders.

Mikhail Gorbachev and Yeltsin both began as orthodox party regulars. They subsequently evolved together into reformers. Then came the revolution. Gorbachev could not shake himself from the system. Yeltsin rose up and engineered its destruction.

In the 1980s, Mousavi was Ayatollah Khomeini's prime minister, a brutal enforcer of orthodox Islamism. Twenty years later, he started out running for president advocating little more than cosmetic moderation. But then the revolutionary dynamic began: The millions who rallied to his cause -- millions far to his left -- began to radicalize him. The stolen election radicalized him even more. Finally, the bloody suppression of his followers led him to make statements just short of challenging the legitimacy of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the very foundations of the regime. The dynamic continues: The regime is preparing the basis for Mousavi's indictment (for sedition), arrest, even possible execution. The prospect of hanging radicalizes further.

As Mousavi hovers between Gorbachev and Yeltsin, between reformer and revolutionary, between figurehead and leader, the revolution hangs in the balance. The regime may neutralize him by arrest or even murder. It may buy him off with offers of safety and a sinecure. He may well prefer to let this cup pass from his lips.

But choose he must, and choose quickly. This is his moment and it is fading rapidly. Unless Mousavi rises to it, or another rises in his place, Iran's democratic uprising will end not as Russia 1991, but as China 1989.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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General Strike
I fear only a General Strike will change the dynamic in Iran now.

Even if Mousavi wanted to become a Yeltsin it seems that he has been muzzled.

Perhaps another leader of the Revolutionary Guard will balk at killing his own countrymen again and a ripple of dissent could spread within the regime itself, but unless the merchant class spontaneously begins a strike on their own this is going to end up like China.

There has been a great loss of political power for Ahmadinejad that will curtail his rhetoric, but Barack Obama's credentials in the Middle East have been damaged as well, not to mention the dwindling number of allies that now view the United States as weak.

This was played badly by Obama from the jump...right up to the 'Hot-Dog Diplomacy' debacle.

Things look pretty bleak over there and now the NORKs await their turn at bat.

The USofA needs to pick up their game if we're not to turn into a laughing stock....maybe Obama could bribe the Somali Pirates to stir up some trouble again...at least he has some experience with that.

James Russell Lowell wrote
Careless seems the great Avenger; history's pages but record
One death-grapple in the darkness 'twixt old systems and the Word;
Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,—
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.

As a Christian, I believe there will be justice, whether on this side of the grave or the other. To theocrats who claim to speak for God while committing atrocities, God replies, "I will repay."


V For Vendetta
Charles, I watched the movie too. Is there a subway system in Tehran that’s near the Ayatollah’s residence?

Good Column.
Yeah, everybody needs one of those "Give me liberty, or give me death" guys.

I do have a problem with Krauthammer's intended imagery "...the dictators die like dogs." That line seems to be one often used by Muslim-type people; and in human affairs, all the other animals are innocent.

God willing
Khameini will be their Mussolini and end up the SAME way.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

MOUSAVI & PRO-DEMOCRACY IRAN
Mousavi is part of a power struggle within the Islamonazi terrorist regime between reformists and conservatives. He is a true son of the fascist revolution, a Khomenie jihadist wanting to restore the purity and spirit of 1979 and form a more deceptively softer, engaging, less confrontational foreign policy to advance Iran's nuclear ambitions and expansionist aims.

But behind Mousavi are pro-democratic forces who want to be rid of the Mousavis and mullahs and want the imperfect, illiberal Moslem democracy that Iraq and Afghanistan have. The brutal crackdown is serving to fan the flames of liberty increasing the number of anti-Khomenists who want a representative government and are ready to take up arms in their cause. Surely any of us would prefer such a government to the apocalyptic zealots who are leading Iran and the Middle East into peril and nuclear confrontation with Israel.

neoCONS vis-a-vis Iran


I can barely abide the leftist Pied Piper ObaMessiah, BUT when the myriad neoCON/Zionist columnists here (Barone, Prager, Krauthammer, May, Medved, Goldberg, Morris, Prelutsky, Gaffney, Glick; see also Kristol, Ledeen, Kagan, Podhoretz, Frum) berate him for not enough aggression in the M.E., they ought to have to offer a caveat emptor about their militant Zionist agendas (which most Jews disagree with).

This crowd was all braying its artful support for the Iraq subterfuge several years ago---> it was going to be quick and easy, we would be viewed as liberators, a democracy friendly to us would inspire others in the region, more and cheaper oil would flow, Iraq had WMD's and was behind 9/11, it was an essential step in "the war on terror"... WELL, ALL OF THAT PROVED SPECIOUS AND DISINGENUOUS! Close study reveals that it was REALLY simply the PNAC/AIPAC/CFR agenda put into action at IMMENSE expense to America.

We took out Iraq, which had NOTHING to do with 9/11, because Dubya was being manipulated by the CFR/neoCON/PNAC crowd--> Wolfy, Perle, Abrams, Feith, Libby, Wurmser and Bolton.

Now the same bellicose ilk would have us also get into it with Iran for Israel's benefit. We are already spending $400,000 per Israeli on the $3 TRILLION Iraq war!

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.h tml
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=8791
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 3/07/AR2008030702846.html
http://www.codoh.info/zionweb/zionpgiraq.html
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Israel-Lobby-and-US-Fo reign-Policy/John-J-Mearsheimer/e/9780374177720/?pwb=1

MOUSAVI & PRO DEMOCRACY IRAN
Mousavi is part of a power struggle within the Islamonazi terrorist regime between reformists and conservatives. He is a true son of the fascist revolution, a Khomenie jihadist wanting to restore the purity and spirit of 1979 and form a more deceptively softer, engaging, less confrontational foreign policy to advance Iran's nuclear ambitions and expansionist aims.

But behind Mousavi are pro-democratic forces who want to be rid of the Mousavis and mullahs and want the imperfect, illiberal Moslem democracy that Iraq and Afghanistan have. The brutal crackdown is serving to fan the flames of liberty increasing the number of anti-Khomenists who want a representative government and are ready to take up arms in their cause. Surely any of us would prefer such a government to the apocalyptic zealots who are leading Iran and the Middle East into peril and nuclear confrontation with Israel.

Liberty is coming to Iran; the violent destruction of the mullahs is at hand.



Obama should not have meddled
Krauthammer is spot on (like usual) when he says that Obama's worst mistep was when he publicly discounted the policy differences between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi. When Obama said he should not meddle he meant (whether he knew or it not) that he should not take sides in the election. But saying both sides are the same is as significant as taking sides.

Policy
I rarely comment on these threads any longer, due to the general level of ad hominem attacks any gored ox attracts. I do, however, flag posts mocking physical afflictions. That would include "Dr. Strangelove" references when speaking of the wheelchair-bound author of this piece.

Can't disagree with Charles, but...
...as a Muslim nation, can Iran ever have freedom, as the West understands it - or even close, while they hold Islam to be the source for their social codes? If infallible Allah's immutable word in the Koran trumps fallible man's transient "opinions," then Islamic theocracy necessarily trumps democracy.
Even as an enormous number of under-30 Iranians demonstrate a wish for freedom and democracy, is it not but an idle and irreconcilable wish that is still subordinate, even in their minds, to the explicit tenets of their religion?
I wish them well; liberty took the West centuries.
And that imperfectly.

Here's what America is Getting
If you think Iran got it bad, just read here http://theblacksphere.net/site/obama_uses_iranian_tactics/ A MUST READ!

IRAN
CONCISE, COGENT, CLEAR. (CHARLES K)

I suspect Mousavi may have been erased already.

Iran: Desperately seeking Yeltsin
Krauthammer is absolitely right. Obama made an unexcusable mistake by in fact meddling in the Iran's affairs while discussing the leaders.
In opposite to the West, we in the Soviet Union despised Gorbachev (justifiably) and liked Yeltsin although we understood that both came from KGB yolk. Gorbachev was a direct Andropov's protege. Yeltsin had at least KGB approval,as everyone higher than an assembly line manager.
The court makes the king. The electricity of the revolution transforms the participants, even reluctant. It does not matter that Yeltsin came back (or succumbed) to his KGB origins. The Soviet Union does not exists in its previous form anymore.
Obama is listening to realists, but in revolutions the realists are always wrong.

From Thomas Paine to the Iranian People:
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier & the sunshine patriot will, in crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love & thanks of man & woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon it's goods; & it would be strange indeed, if so celestial an article as Freedom should not be highly rated."...Thomas Paine

"But if you say, you can pass the violations over, then I ask, hath your house been burnt? Hath your property been destroyed before your face? Are you destitute of a bed to lie on, or bread to live on? Have you lost a parent or a child by their hands, & yourself the ruined & wretched survivor? If you have not, then you are not a judge of those who have. But if you have, & can still shake hands with the murderers, then you are unworthy of the name of husband, father, friend, or lover, & whatever may be your rank or title in life, you have the heart of a coward & the spirit of a sycophant."...Thomas Paine

How many times can you beat me
Yes, how many times can you beat me before I leave home? How long will I wear this stupid burka, cover my head and not allow the wind to run free through my raven hair? How long must I wait with a college education to find a job and build a dowry to marry? Stupid America, you give up your freedom so cheaply, you will learn it is not so easy to get back. Iran cannot get its freedom back with one guy, not Yeltsin, not Mousavi, not even George Washington. It takes organization to fight the mob of hypocritical mullahs. The problem with most revolutions is that the mob begins them but only organizational skills defeats the ruling class. The army and police must be turned against the Besij, Hezbollah, Hamas and Khomeini mullahs. They fear for their jobs if not for their lives. The people, I agree, with Charles need a leader and it appears half the clerics have already turned. It is the fanatics that they most need to neutralize, because they don't much care how many they kill in the name of Allah.

Iranians don't want change?
Gregdn,
I'm not sure where you get your information that the Iranians are happy with the Ayatollah's, but that has never been my perception. I believe their rule has worn thin long ago. The people obey because lacking a Second Amendment, they have little choice. Rocks against bullets and a terrorist government aren't much of a match. There has been a lust for freedom in Iran for a long time, but the powers that be hold the cards and aren't afraid to use terror tactics on their own people. That is another reason why Obama's thinking that he can negotiate these people into being nice guys is so insane. But that puts his Iran policy on a par with his other policies.

Why the ruckus?
Not one, not even one, drop of American blood for Iran.

Not one, not even one, drop of American blood for Iran. Not one drop of blood, not even one drop of sweat.

Eldon @ Geri
Eldon and Geri make some excellent points. Eldon said:

“Krauthammer is spot on (like usual) when he says that Obama's worst mistep was when he publicly discounted the policy differences between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi.”

This is an excellent example of how the famous liberal tolerance is dangerous and completely bankrupt as a virtue for any thinking individual. Obama was just reflecting his lack of any moral foundation and all views being equally valid.

Geri said:

“The people obey because lacking a Second Amendment, they have little choice.”

This is the salient difference between free people and slaves. A free people can never allow anyone to take away their ability to fight tyranny. I’m continually amused when liberals ponder why anyone would need an assault rifle to hunt. My response that the state of NY could take away my right to hunt tomorrow. The Second Amendment is our founders gift that allows the generations of a free people to remain so.

Dr. Krauthammer
Your opinions are correct, as usual. Thank you for speaking up.
Obama couldn't take sides until the polls,Axelrod and Rahm told him what stance to take. All decisions are above the empty suits's paygrade.

Never Give Up...
Yeltsin was electric and Mousavi is not...yet the desire motivating this movement is very strong. The Middle East "has" started to change and these young people have felt and are responding to the force of freedom...and it appears that Mousavi caught a certain fire as well...the compelling force of freedom being what it is. It's no surprise to me that Obama has done what he has since his desire to control is as strong as the existing regime and I say that in all honesty...look at what he's already done to this country..which I think is still a little dazed and confused by this "popular guy"...but hopefully.. give it time. I personally have a problem with being too positive in what I get behind..and yet that's how I'll remain with the movement in Iran. The "never give up" motto is much stronger than idealism..it's a necessity..and yes the "train has already left the station"...but I don't discount anything that Charles has said in this column...it could dissolve without a Yeltsin..but with Iraq and its new awakening nearby it will be hard to completely squelch. These people have my total support. Obama can go play with his healthcare, his energy reforms and his cigarettes.

Oracle1
Chances are if you regularly use the term "zionist" in every discussion you are probably a racist. Anti-semites throw around the word "Zionist" with the same vitriol and glee and that idiot bigots throw around the "N" word.

You can spew your idiotic hatred for Bush all you want... but the bottom line is his policies are reshaping the middle east.

fundamental error.
Krauthammer falls into the fallacy of accepting the great man view of history. There have been electric figures whose revolutions have failed and competent figures whose revolutions have succeeded. The political situation in the country, the views of the masses, and the views of the average policemen called on to carry out repressive tactics matters more than Mousavi's personality.

As I understand it, at this point in the first Iranian revolution it appeared to be a failure with the Shah's people in control. It took about a year for the revolution to succeed, so it is far too soon to know which way this one is going. And what is happening behind the scenes may matter more than what we see. Is Rafsanjani really trying to dethrone the supreme leader, does he have a chance to do it, and what policies would he favor if he succeeded?

What kind of government do the Iranian people really want? This may be very different than what I would want if I was one of them.

This is about the Iranians. The biggest mistake we could make is to make it about us. Obama has done a good job avoiding that. Moussavi to date has done a good job keeping to the high road. This could fail, but each is effectively putting pressure on the Mullahs and making them look illegitimate. I have no idea how it will turn out.

Geri and Lepanto
Geri's comment also cited by Lepanto reminds me of a curious op-ed from the time of the Yeltsin moment. It was written by Paul Greenberg who is usually one of the more reasonable conservatives.

He praised the almost bloodless coup that had occurred, and then added the odd claim that the only thing that would have made it better was if they had a second amendment so the people had been armed.

This seemed just bizarre in context. Things had gone better than anyone could imagine and Greenberg was lamenting that things had not been different. And the way things would have been different hardly seem likely to have improved things. After all what made the Yeltsin stand work was the refusal of the soldiers to attack the protesters. But suppose that some of the protesters were shooting, or even pointing weapons, at the soldiers. That is the kind of thing that makes soldiers stand together against the protesters. An armed populace could have ruined the Yeltsin moment.

If an armed Iranian population could really overthrow the better armed Iranian security forces then it would be a shame that the Iranians are not armed. But that seems unlikely. Given the shape of the protest movement so far, their success comes precisely from the fact that they are a peaceful protest movement facing repression. It is possible, but doubtful, that more weapons would help.


Lon's Error
Another rail put in to protect Americans is Posse Comitatus Act which forbids the military from acting in a law enforcement capacity. This would leave the enforcement pertaining to infringement of rights to law enforcement entities in an instance of Americans standing up against tyranny. My opinion is the American military would not fire on an American citizenry legitimately standing up for their rights.

Obviously Iran has no such tradition and that is why those advocating freedom are being slaughtered. It is not just our second ammendment that protects us but the wisdom and tradition of freedom loving people that included it in our Constitution.

oracle 1:
Ah, I see. So any Jewish folks who aren't blindly following the pied piper of liberalism are "militant." Kind of like the "right wing extremist" tag. I get it. Those who don't march lockstep with your "hug a suicide bomber" mentality are "militant." Tell you what, when Hamas, Hezbollah, & Iran get over the idea that Israel (and Jews) shouldn't exist at all, THEN maybe the Jewish folks who live in Israel & those who support Israel over here, will be more willing to use options other than military force. Maybe it's just me, but I think that when you stop telling someone that you're gonna kill them & negotiate in good faith, then the person you said you were gonna kill will relax a little bit & not keep sucker punching you in order to avoid their demise.

reply to: NavyBrat
You could not be MORE wrong about me... I am the son of an Air Force Colonel...have ALWAYS voted for conservatives (worked for Reagan and Daddy Bush campaigns), though i could not vote for RINO, open border/NAU Amnesty John McCain... I am a career banker.

BUT I get what the neoCONS are REALLY all about... it takes a lot of study, but they are CERTAINLY NOT "conservative" when scrutinized carefully... they are simply militant Zionists who believe in using AMERICAN might to vanquish Islamics for Israel.

oracle 1:
Saddam allowed an Al Qaeda training camp to be built & used just north of Baghdad. Marcus Luttrell wrote about it in his book, "Lone Survivor." Saddam was poor. He needed money. I realize that it might be a stretch for you to believe, but in his money grubbing state, why WOULDN'T he sell his technology, & eventually, weapons, to Osama?

And while I realize that liberals routinely tout the efficacy of public education, yours seems to have failed you in the realm of reading comprehension. I never said we needed to "punch out the terrorists first" (although the best defense is a good offense). I said that the "militant Jews" you were talking about would be more willing to stop using the option of force & more likely to use the one of negotiation when those who've espoused their deaths STOP espousing their destruction. Read what's ON the page, sonny boy, not what you WANT to see on the page.

oracle 1 @11:22:
If that's the case, I apologize. However, a "no vote" for Mc Cain is the same as a vote for President Nero in my eyes. I'm about as sick as I can be of those who claim the "evil Zionist conspiracy" card 24/7. The leftys do it, & now, I've come to see, so do my conservative brethren. Its disappointing to me.

I'm of Jewish decent, my Dad was a Navy captain & Vietnam vet. I would no more go & join the IDF than I would the Foreign Legion (although I thought it'd be cool when I was younger), but I DO support Israel in their actions to keep their people safe. The Israeli "sucker punch" doctrine has kept the wolves out of the barn since the inception of the country. There are conservatives who applaud the Israelis for being the buffer against the jihadi schmucks who would control the whole region. That doesn't make them Israel firsters, any more than the Irish Americans who detested the British occupation of Northern Ireland (I'm NOT talking about the idiots who sent MONEY to the IRA, like Teddy Kennedy). Ireland was their homeland, & it was occupied by (in their eyes) an invading army. While Israel isn't occupied, there are those who support their actions to keep it that way. Like me.

Again, sorry for labeling you a liberal. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy (unless the were a liberal).

Mousavi is a Muslim - Sorry Charlie!
He's an opportuninst with a fundamentalist Islamic past. He's a true believer in some deity that they call Allah and his prophet Muhammad.

Sorry Charlie, NO THANKS! I'm not going there. I've read the Islamic texts. Have you? I doubt it.

Real bad stuff.

If he renounces Islam and Muhammad the beheader, rapist, maimer, murderer, enslaver, well OK.

That would mean that he would have to renounce the most recognized Hadiths in the Sahih Al-Bukhari which documents some of the most hateful and criminal actions of Muhammad. All are validated by Islamic disciples.

He will not. He believes in this false and wicked ideology. Therefore, he believes in implementing Sharia law which at BEST enslaves all non Muslims.

How about the Koran's demand that obligates all Muslims to wage jihad whenever possible. That means all Muslims are compelled WHENEVER POSSIBLE to either kill, convert, enslave or subjugate all non Muslims.

No dhimmihood for me pal. I'm a conservative not a neoconservative which is nothing but a fancy name for a PC liberal.

If I was in Iran I couldn't wait to vote for Mousavi - lol. He would kill me, my wife and kids for going to Mass this Sunday.

This country is so far to the Left that you are considered a "conservative". How pathetic.

Orace1's post
You could not be more wrong.
Iraq had 18 training camps for terrorists...11 of the 18 went through these camps and were directly linked with Hussein..yellow cake was moved from Iraq into Canada for reprocessing..so says CNN and still you believe the MSM nonsense about no link?/
And Osama and Saddam were not then and not ever opponents!!! Where do you get your LIBTARD nonsense from..The Huffington Press rag???

Absolute nonsense!!!!

Allen in OK:
I knew about the one camp from Luttrell's book. Can you give me some links to info about the other camps? I'd like to know more.

Navy Brat:
Not north but just southwest. It's called Salman Pak. I have the KH-11 (Keyhole) satellite photo. It shows a complete 737 fueselage minuse wings. This is the training ground which was used by IRAQI intelligence services to teach Al-Quaeda how to take over an airliner with only small edged weapons and fake bombs.

This was gleaned from debriefing an Iraqi intelligence officer. There is all the link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11 you even need.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Wrat Wrangler:
Thanks man! I'll look it up online. You know, of course, that the libtards here will say that your info is "manufactured" & "false," as they are wont to do.

...

Is it a coincidence that the only people who regularly use the term "Zionists" are terrorists and liberals?


Neocons are a subset of militant zionist Jews? Really?

It is laughable that you think you aren't a racist and a bigot.

Anyone who sides with Hamas over the "zionists" is either a bigot or a muslim who doesn't know any better.

Iran is not ready yet
Iran is not ready for real freedom yet. It will take years more of oppression in order to build up the will for real change:

Iranian cleric says "rioters" should be executed

A hardline Iranian cleric called on Friday for the execution of leading "rioters" to teach a lesson to the tens of thousands who have protested against the result of the presidential election two weeks ago

As always...
While I don't often agree with him, Krauthammer's column is always an excellent, thought provoking read. This time however I not only enjoyed the read but find few points with which I would disagree.

Krauthammer highlights the central differences between this potential Iranian revolution and the last. Then, you had a charismatic leader and a well defined outcome. Both are absent in the current uprising. However, a major crack has appeared in the Supreme Leader's edifice of infallibility, creating an entirely new dynamic, which a prudent, and thoughtful Obama regime may well be able to exploit in a manner that promotes western interests in the region.

Iran
the real Gitmo

Brilliant Tim
Great comment! Amazing the world is not galvanizing over the closing of Iran.

Grim
http://www.TalkdToDeath.com

Lepanto
I am not sure what part of what you said was supposed to point out an error that I made. I don't actually disagree with anything you said there except the title.

Of course the old soviet union did not have our traditions either, but they did have a breaking point as far as what the soldiers were willing to do. It is certainly a shame that Iran does not have our tradition of individual liberty, but adopting the second amendment by itself would hardly give it to them.

But then that seems to agree with what you said, so I am not sure what error on my part you mean to be pointing out.

Obama's Options on Iran are Limited.
The fact of the matter, for anyone who knows his or her history as it pertains to Iran, or who has taken their time to do the requisite homework, knows that our options there are very limited. In 1953 the US along with Britain engineered an overthrow of a popular government, which lead to the installation of one of the most repressive non-communist regimes of the cold war era. Suffice it to say that if not for the 1953 coup, there is little likelihood of the Iranian Revolution of 1979 or the subsequent hostage crisis. During the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War, the USA was the defacto ally of the Iraqi regime headed by Saddam Hussein, contributing military intelligence and biological warfare agents to Baghdad and, when that regime ran the idea of using chemical weapons against Iran past the Reagan Administration it got at least a tacit approval. That said, how much actual influence does any thinking individual think we have at this point in time given our failed foreign policy track record in Iran?

All of the experts that I have seen on television or whom I have read in the papers have said that Obama’s approach to the present Iranian crisis is on the mark. Likewise, all of the Iranians that I have seen interviewed have said that this is not a revolution against the Iranian state but a protest for reform of the political process in that state. Perhaps those on the right who have a vested interest in the failure of the Obama Administration should be honest about what our are actual options.

Oracle
Anti Semitic Homosexual appologist for the flop eared simpleton in the white House now.

reply to: CharletonHeston
I thought that you died, Charleton? You were good in "Ben-Hur."

Oh, I see now-- it was just brain death.

A spelling lesson would be helpful also.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

reply to: Kimbery

Most American Jews are opposed to the war in Iraq... are THEY racist, anti-Semitic bigots?!
Do THEY want to embrace terrorists?!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

There are none so blind as they who will not see.

Lo!- 1 Arce?
Oracle 1, I wonder if someone whom you loved died in Iraq? Your logic doesn't make sense to me so perhaps it has been born out of your loss and your own personal pain? I'm sorry for your loss, if so. What say you?

Mr. Krauthammer, I respect what you say. Thank you.

This Guy Covers it ALL
Check out his website and his latest post, and you will be HOOKED! http://theblacksphere.net/site/the-blog/

oracle
"Most American Jews are opposed to the war in Iraq... are THEY racist, anti-Semitic bigots?!
Do THEY want to embrace terrorists?!"

Most American Jews vote democratic out of ignorance. They therefore toe the party line on issues like Iraq and Israel.

And if by "embrace terrorists" you mean support Palestine over Israel I would say yes every Jew voting democratic wants to support terrorism. Hamas celebrated Obama's victory for a reason!



reply to: Barbara
The best answer I can give you is that there was NO NEED to physically occupy Iraq... Daddy Bush decided this the first go-around. Cheney himself said as much back then! We swatted Saddam with air strikes so hard in the Gulf War that he was dizzy. Hell, Saddam was a check on Iran!

But once Dubya let the neoCONS talk him into occupying that big sandbox, the costs in lives and treasure SOARED! we are headed toward total costs of $3 TRILLION per Prof. Stiglitz:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 3/07/AR2008030702846.html

That works out to $400,000 per Israeli, which I note because that is precisely why Wolfy and his militant neoCON/Zionist friends (Perle, Feith, Bolton, Libby, Abrams, Wurmser, Frum) engendered the takeout of Iraq while they were pulling Dubya's gullible strings.

Anybody notice that Cheney and Dubya are now estranged? That is because Daddy Bush's guys Baker and Scowcroft (called anti-Semites by the neoCONS) explained to Dubya that the neoCONS had snookered him into what will be the biggest blight of his tenure.

Iraq is Viet Nam redux-- WAY TOO EXPENSIVE, and ultimately pointless.


good God, Kimbery...
re:
Most American Jews vote democratic out of ignorance.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And YOU call ME an anti-Semitic racist and bigot?!

The Jews are EASILY the most educated and sophisticated subgroup in America! Most of them simply believe that it is insane to think that Israel can long endure with a bellicose approach toward 1.3 BILLION Islamics (when there are but 5 million Israeli's) that outnumber them 200:1. They correctly see that the neoCONS manipulating America into taking out Saddam has NOT won friends in the region.

By the way, whatever happened to the "coalition of the willing"?! The rest realized what a pointless quagmire we let the neoCONS plunge us into.

And how come those democratic elections are electing Hamas and other groups hostile to us? Dubya was furious about that, becuase he had been misled about what was supposedly going to result.

lol...
"Iraq is Viet Nam redux-- WAY TOO EXPENSIVE, and ultimately pointless."

That just proves you are so busy toeing the party line that you are immune to reality.

A democracy in the middle east is a game changer. The effects of a democratic Iraq are being seen all over the region from the Lebanese rejection of Hezzbollah to the revolution in Iran.

Every position you seem to take is an anti-"neocon" or anti-semetic rant rooted in ignorance.

You hate republicans we get it. Now take a few deep breaths and climb out of your parents basement and get some air it will do you good.

Hamas
Hamas got elected because Fatah is corrupt not because the Palestinian people wanted to send a message to America.

A bellicose aproach? The Israelis have tried everything with the Palestinians. The only solution acceptable to Hamas is the extermination of Israel. There is no possible compromise. Every Israel gives the Palestinians a yard they take a mile and spit in their face.

Hamas is a racist organization no better than the KKK. They cannot be negotiated out of being hate driven Jew hating butchers any more than you can talk a shark into being a vegan.

I realize that the left is all about puppies and rainbows and thinks if they would only sit down and talk these things through there would be peace by the end of the week. But 10,000 years of human history suggest otherwise.

Until the Palestinians reject Hamas and quit firing rockets at Israeli pre-schools EVERY DAY Israel has absolutely no reason in the world to let up on them.

And as for the 1.3 billion Islamics... so long as none of these terrorist states like Iran or Syria get the bomb Israel can easily hold them off.

reply to: Kimbery
re:
"You hate republicans we get it."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I AM a Republican-- NOT a RINO... the head of the party in Ga. tried to get me to run for Congress! I worked in the campaigns of R.R. and Daddy Bush. I am a Pat Buchanan style America First type who also resents being conned by the neoCONS for an ulterior agenda.

To oppose the mistake in Iraq need NOT be a lib perspective...

2nd Amendment is necessary
This is the sort of thing that could happen in any country where the people are not allowed to own firearms but the government, of course, has them.
In the Virginia convention, George Mason, drafter of the Virginia Bill of Rights, accused the British of having plotted "to disarm the people — that was the best and most effective way to enslave them", while Patrick Henry observed that, "The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun".
How terrible that the protesters face bullets while about the best they can muster is rocks and bottles.

Obama and Mousavi
If you put our President in Iran, replacing Mousavi, do you think he would step forward and demand a regime change ? Or would he wish to avoid bloodshed, prefer talking from the inside, and bow to the strength of the regime.

In either case, he would, naturally, make a great speech, inviting praise for his wisdom. If he won't even talk hard at the start, despite being the Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful military in the world, what would YOU do as a Russian tyrant, looking at the republic of Georgia,
and remembering Obama's reaction to the last invasion of that Country ?

Personally, I am still waiting for the "actions have consequences" rhetoric to be be crammed down North Korea's throat. Have we searched any of their ships lately ? Has anyone else ?

Kimberley and Others
It shoulkd be agreed that we made mistakes after using military force to effect regime change in Iraq. We should not have relied so much on being hailed as "liberators", as in Italy and France after WWII. We should have changed tactics and troop committments more quickly after violence/terror/infighting broke out. I think President Bush was TOO loyal to his key advisors when the war began to drag on.

BUT, this doesn't have anything to do with the decision to effect regime change. Who would like to have Sadaam running Iraq - with all those petrodollrs, failed UN sanctions, and oil deals with France and Russia ? Then we would have THREE lunatic egotists working hard on nuclear weapons. Does anyone believe that they would all just bomb each other ?

Compared to previous wars, the loss of 4500 troops over 6 years - less than 5% of our self-inflicted death toll from automobile accidents during this time - is VERY modest, especially compared to the hype it has received from the Press and the not-so-loyal Democrats.

Had Geoge W. listened to these folk, and to his own "neo-cons", the surge wouldn't have (finally) happened, Iraq would be lost to competing terror groups, and chances in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be non-existent.

No, it should not have taken 6 years to get here, or have cost $3 trillion (4% of GNP over the 6 years). But, in inflated $'s the cost is MUCH smaller than WWIi, which has made a living for two generations of historians, cataloguing our mistakes.

On the War on terror, Obama is DOING almost exactly what Bush planned; but is describing it out of the left side of his forked tongue. If we don't wake up soon, we will become as Europeans - wringing our hands about Darfur and nuclear proliferation while making virtue of our loathing for force, precisely because we have none.

Watch your baffles Navy Brat!!
The trolls will sneak up on you LONG after you've demolished an argument and bring it up again months later. It's not to convince you but to influence the "lurkers". They are the 80% who never post but just read.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Some more intel, Navy Brat:
When interviewed, the Chinese jihadi kept in Bermuda said GITMO was BETTER than living in China!! So much for "torture". These guys are living large with an allowance they blow each week at Pizza Hut. They dress in Land's End, go surfing and have learned to fish.

WHAT do you have to do to get THAT sentence?

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Thank you Oracle
After carefully reading your posts and your credentials I think your voice is an important one. Maybe not so popular-- which you wouldn't care about anyway judging from your independent thought- but definitely important.

Thanks for your explanation. I too read about Wolfowitz being a pawn to get to Bush about Iraq. I am not a military or war expert and I do not pretend to know how it will work out in the M.E. in the future. I often think about all the American lives lost and damaged and though I know of the huge amount of money spent, that, for me, pales in comparison to the former. I also think that those who have lost their loved ones or have wounded ones to care for have more weight in any discussion of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan than those of us who sit at our computers opining. But even if their voices are never heard, I believe their silence speaks volumes.

Barbara AZ.
Whut Are you kidding me?!
Don't thank ORACLe for anything. He does not know his rear end from a hole in the ground.
He just uses doublespeak.

Get your own learn on Barbara. PLEASE!!!!!

Mousavi & Rafsanjani
are surely not the answer.

members of the military, who just might lead an armed revolution, are being jailed as we speak.

an informant, who was privy to the actual vote count, who told Mousavi to "take one for the team," has been murdered.

our hearts and minds should be with the iranian people. they are coming to their senses. they're choosing freedom over the perks of having a state-run oil industry. (kinda, sorta, the opposite of what's going on here, eh?)

it's only just begun. and it won't be getting any prettier.


My policy on flagging . . .
If your post is degrading, offensive, or seems like you're merely talking out your rear to get attention, I will FLAG you! We all know who the worst offender around here is, don't we? Take a bow, oracle1.

Mrs, this is the first time I've read a post from you. Unfortunately, I had to flag you as well.

People, this area is for the "intelligent" dialogue of those who are versed in the art of salient discourse.

In the words of Thumper, "if ya can't say anything nice, then don't say nuttin at all!"

oracle1, if you are a Republican
You actually said something that much sense with me, "Most American Jews vote democratic out of ignorance." To be honest with you, I don't understand why the majority of my people vote for Democrats . . . I'm a died-in-the-wool Reagan Republican . . . a genuine conservative! Newt Gingrich has, as of late, been dropping hints that he may run for POTUS in 2012. Nothing would make me happier!

Uh, Mr. Neo...I mean... Mr. CFR...
"Iran today is a revolution in search of its Yeltsin. Without leadership, demonstrators will take to the street only so many times to face tear gas, batons and bullets."

How about we change one word from your quote above. Replace the word Iran with America and let's start there.

I was stopped yesterday by gestapo border patrol on I-10 and was searched and had my car searched by a dog.

How about you war mongers work on fixing this jacked up country before you continue blowing up other countries for Israel.

Navybrat
"However, a "no vote" for Mc Cain is the same as a vote for President Nero in my eyes."

How about opening your eyes then? Sorry but that's one of the most foolish statements one could make.

You go right ahead and keeping voting for one side of a coin. How's that worked for ya so far?

Sorry, Neda - I
"A relative in the United States had cautioned Neda not to attend any demonstrations, telling her “They’re killing people.” To which the lionhearted and prescient Neda replied: “Don’t worry, it’s just one bullet and its over.”

U.S. President Obama sent a direct message to Iran's SUPREME LEADER Ayatollah Ali Khamenei weeks before this month's disputed election, Iranian sources said Wednesday.

Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, calls for an end to protests last week at Tehran University.

The letter requested dialogue and engagement between the two nations, the sources said.

The sources said that Khamenei has yet to reply to the letter but that nonetheless it "had set the negotiating table in order for both sides to sit around it after the election."

The White House refused to "get into the specifics of our different ways of communicating," a senior Obama administration official said.

"We have indicated a willingness to talk for a long time and have sought to communicate with the Iranians in a variety of ways," the official said.

Khamenei made an indirect reference to the letter in his sermon on Friday at Tehran University.


Sorry, Neda - II

"The U.S. president said that we were waiting for a day like this to see people on the street," the Iranian leader said. "Some people attributed these remarks to Obama, and then they write letters to say we're ready to have ties, that we respect the Islamic Republic, and on the other hand, they make such comments. Which one should we believe?"

The regime of Iran pretends that there is a deep hostility between Iranians and Israel. On the other side, the regime of Iran has been trying to prove that the Iranian people care about Palestinians in a special way (let say different from their feeling about the Chechens in Russia). Both of these claims are baseless and wrong. Iranians do not feel any hostility towards Israelis and Iranians have no special place in their hearts for the Arab Palestinians.

Iranians had a great role in the ancient history of the Jews. The name of Cyrus the great is mentioned many times in the Old Testament. Cyrus freed the Jews while they were living in exile and under captivity in Babylon. He let them return to Jerusalem and helped them to build their main temple...

Although I disagree with the pedophile charge, since Jackson was acquitted), see link:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/12363

http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/7/143 69

Wow: Obama kinda sorta backs Mousavi!

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/26/wow-obama-kinda-sorta -backs-mousavi/

Iranian regime leaders near rock bottom:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzViMjQ0NDUxODhhYz RkYjRiMjQ3ZTk2ZjFiODJlMDU=


Indefinite Detention Without Trial - I
First broken a few hours ago by WaPo, now confirmed by the AP, a little Friday evening care package from The One while the media’s busy obsessing over Jacko and cap ‘n trade.
Do bear in mind that, contrary to leftist talking points, it’s not just the fact that some of the evidence against these turds was obtained through “torture” that makes them untriable in regular courts. Other evidence is either classified or was obtained from foreign intel — points that WaPo, to its credit, acknowledges but which our nutroots superiors tend to gloss over.

Such an order would embrace claims by former president George W. Bush that certain people can be detained without trial for long periods under the laws of war. Obama advisers are concerned that bypassing Congress could place the president on weaker footing before the courts and anger key supporters, the officials said…

Some of Obama’s top legal advisers, along with a handful of influential Republican and Democratic lawmakers, have pushed for the creation of a “national security court” to supervise the incarceration of detainees deemed too dangerous to release but who cannot be charged or tried.


Indefinite Detention Without Trial - II
But the three senior government officials said the White House has turned away from that option, at least for now, because legislation establishing a special court would be both difficult to pass and likely to fracture Obama’s own party…

“Legislation could kill Obama’s plans,” said one government official involved. The official said an executive order could be the best option for the president at this juncture. Under one White House draft that was being discussed earlier this month, according to administration officials, detainees would be imprisoned at a military facility on U.S. soil but their ongoing detention would be subject to annual presidential review. U.S. citizens would not be held in the system…

One administration official said future transfers to the United States for long-term detention would be rare. Al-Qaeda operatives captured on the battlefield, which the official defined as Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and possibly the Horn of Africa, would be held in battlefield facilities.

Oh, vey! Get the smelling salts for the ACLU!

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/26/oh-my-obama-drafts-ex ecutive-order-to-detain-terrorists-indefinitely-without-tri al/

Krauthammer is right leaning PC liberal
"If a Stalinist-style power struggle by way of Mecca were unmasked, would Pulitzer Prize winner Charles Krauthammer withdraw his sweeping claims that on Tehran's streets "all hangs in the balance"? I doubt it. After all, he's still cooing over "Iraq establishing the institutions of a young democracy" even as Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is now declaring a "great victory" over the "foreign presence" now leaving Iraq -- meaning all U.S. troops who have fought and died for that lousy country.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3986

Regime change?
Never happen with a guy like Obama running the US. Presidents for the last 3 decades have been talking about it, but unless the CIA gets actively involved, it will not happen. And we know Obama does not or will never allow that. No, better for Obama to read some mindless B.S. off his teleprompter, yeah that's the ticket!

The Revolutionary Guard is the Regime
Recent events have shown that Iran is a military dictatorship. Regardless of elections, their President, and even the Supreme Leader, the Revolutionary Guard will get what they want. If any Iranian disagrees, they'll either be arrested or their votes will be miscounted.

Iran is not important to us
Krauthammer and his neocon buddies keep using up all their space on Townhall to write about Israel, Palestinians, and now Iran . They got us into Iraq becuase they had a usefull idiot in Bush and now they keep harping about Iran all the while America is being invaded by illegal aliens from our southern border. Indeed California has the lagest illegal population in the country which causing it to have a 24 billion fiscal deficit. If the neocons do not want to write about this immigration debacle , then I suggest that Townhall not give them the space for it is being wasted !

A Difference
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Abomba must have been thinking, "What would Muhammed do?"

After all, the mullahs are only doing what Abomba is trying to do to the United States of America, creating and maintaing a totalitarian regime.

Bush was right.

Bush was right when he proclaimed, "People inheriently want Freedom."

With the exception of Liberals, most people believe they can manage their lives better than governments, better than mullas, better than the elites of a society.

Only Liberals seek the dependance of Government.

Joseph in IL
Since you are so concerned about the Illegal Alien problem in California, Then I guess you would not mind taking that up with Liberal Progressive Morons that run Sacramento/ California?

Regime change?
It is precisely this time of rhetoric that brought Amadinejab into power. Prior to the 3 of the stupidest words ever uttered...Axis of Evil...Iran was benifitting from a burgeoning reform movement, with a moderate Khatami as President, reformers representing 60% of Parliment, and protests rocking universities. This movement was killed in its' infancy with the heavy handed, regime change rhetoric of the neocons.

Robert
You too should be concerned with the invasion. Obama talked several times about US corp. retaining jobs in the US. What demogagery when there aer 125,000 legal immigrants coming into the country each month. Too many !!!! This is flooding our labor market with legals let alone illegals. Those who bebefit disproportionaltely from cheap labor are the firms and people who employ them but their cost is spread across the spectrum through property and state income taxes. This cheap labor gets health care at the county hospital and education for their children at the public school. If they get amnestied they are going to vote for more democrats who will promise them more social services. You will then have countless Sacramentos across the country. We need to place a moratorium on immigration period. Robert join NUMBERSUSA pease. It will cost you nothing and you will be fighting to save our way of life.

Popular conversion
Mr. Krauthammer wrote: "Moreover, Mousavi's positions have changed, just as he has. He is far different today from the Mousavi who began this electoral campaign."

This statement made me wonder whether a politician who discovers a vein of public demand previously undiscovered values it for its inherent worth or solely for its utility to his immediate end, i.e. gaining power.

Robert And Seigfried Of IL

Is there something in the water in IL? Many of the loons are from IL.

Iran is a "small country" that can cut off access to the Strait of Hormuz.

The Revolutionary Guard is an arm of the Regime. In fact, the head of the RG was arrested for failing to order the members of the RG to open fire on Iranians.

Do you both have a Blago do?

Joesph in IL
Your Boy Obama will be granting amnesty to every Illegal in this country soon (at least 12 Million), Guaranteeing a Democrat super Majority. It's over Pal. Game, set, Match. Can you say ZIMBABWE here we come? This Country is Doomed with a capital "D". You Libs really should think about the (Un-intended consequences) next time before you vote.

Revolutionary Guard
Ahmadinejad served in the Revolutionary Guard, and they put him in power. The RG has tentacles through many parts of Iranian society -- it is no longer just a purely military organization. When the Assembly of Experts talked about replacing the Supreme Leader or cutting back his powers, the RG threatened to fight.

So I am not being soft on Iran, but pointing out that regime change is just a fantasy.

There is no Iranian Yeltsin
Krauthammer is wrong to think that some Yeltsin-like hero could instantly turn Iran into a Western democracy. The Islamic dictatorship is tightly intrenched and internal change would take a long time.

Is Everyone Ready For July 4th?
To those of you who oppose the destruction of America by Obama and the liberals in Washington, D.C.....

Are all of you ready for the 4th of July Tea Party Protest Rally near you? In over 1,200 cities all across America, the Silent Majority is Silent No More. We are making our posters and bringing our friends, families and a picnic. We can't be silent any more- our country is crumbling all around us, our elected officials are ignoring the will of the people.

Every single house member who voted for the Cap-n-Tax crappola should be booted out in 2010, and the Silent Majority has a mighty big boot.

The Silent Majority is going to roar on July 4, and every single one of us needs to be there to add our voice to the roar. Now, before its too late. Find out when and where in your local cities and towns and make it a point to be there. Independence Day is the perfect day to defend our freedom.

Sarah Palin
Name a person in politics that had their character attacted daily, their marriage, their
children even to men having a nude picture drawn of her only to be hung in a sleezy low class bar, No one. Or one who's young daughter was slammed for having a baby out of wed-lock,
never mind the un known thousands who did the same thing, with one exception, they are on public assissstance. Or who took their fourteen year old daughter to a ball game only to be slimmed by David Letterman, the man who knocked up the mother of his child. Oh yes, and who ever
could have imagined someone actually burning down a church? Her's was. Tell me who want's
to be in Sarah's political shoes. Do you? I
think not. Not to forget her little Downs baby who they tried to say was really her daughter's. Way to go liberal left, you showed her didn't you.
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