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Friday, May 16, 2008
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Home for the Lost Tribes of Israel
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- Before sending Lewis and Clark west, Thomas Jefferson dispatched Meriwether Lewis to Philadelphia to see Dr. Benjamin Rush. The eminent doctor prepared a series of scientific questions for the expedition to answer. Among them, writes Stephen Ambrose: "What Affinity between their (the Indians') religious Ceremonies & those of the Jews?" Jefferson and Lewis, like many of their day and ours, were fascinated by the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and thought they might be out there on the Great Plains.

They weren't. They aren't anywhere. Their disappearance into the mists of history since their exile from Israel in 722 B.C. is no mystery. It is the norm, the rule for every ancient people defeated, destroyed, scattered and exiled.

With one exception, a miraculous story of redemption and return, after not a century or two, but 2,000 years. Remarkably, that miracle occurred in our time. This week marks its 60th anniversary: the return and restoration of the remaining two tribes of Israel -- Judah and Benjamin, later known as the Jews -- to their ancient homeland.

Besides restoring Jewish sovereignty, the establishment of the State of Israel embodied many subsidiary miracles, from the creation of the first Jewish army since Roman times to the only recorded instance of the resurrection of a dead language -- Hebrew, now the daily tongue of a vibrant nation of 7 million. As historian Barbara Tuchman once wrote, Israel is "the only nation in the world that is governing itself in the same territory, under the same name, and with the same religion and same language as it did 3,000 years ago."

During its early years, Israel was often spoken of in such romantic terms. Today, such talk is considered naive, anachronistic, even insensitive, nothing more than Zionist myth designed to hide the true story, i.e., the Palestinian narrative of dispossession.

Not so. Palestinian suffering is, of course, real and heart-wrenching, but what the Arab narrative deliberately distorts is the cause of its own tragedy: the folly of its own fanatical leadership -- from Haj Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem (Nazi collaborator, who spent World War II in Berlin), to Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser to Yasser Arafat to Hamas of today -- that repeatedly chose war rather than compromise and conciliation.

Palestinian dispossession is a direct result of the Arab rejection, then and now, of a Jewish state of any size on any part of the vast lands the Arabs claim as their exclusive patrimony. That was the cause of the war 60 years ago that, in turn, caused the refugee problem. And it remains the cause of war today.

Six months before Israel's birth, the U.N. had decided by a two-thirds majority that the only just solution to the British departure from Palestine would be the establishment of a Jewish state and an Arab state side by side. The undeniable fact remains: The Jews accepted that compromise; the Arabs rejected it.

With a vengeance. On the day the British pulled down their flag, Israel was invaded by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Iraq -- 650,000 Jews against 40 million Arabs.

Israel prevailed, another miracle. But at a very high cost -- not just to the Palestinians displaced as a result of a war designed to extinguish Israel at birth, but also to the Israelis, whose war losses were staggering: 6,373 dead. One percent of the population. In American terms, it would take thirty-five Vietnam memorials to encompass such a monumental loss of life.

You rarely hear about Israel's terrible suffering in that 1948-49 war. You hear only the Palestinian side. Today, in the same vein, you hear that Israeli settlements and checkpoints and occupation are the continuing root causes of terrorism and instability in the region.

But in 1948, there were no "occupied territories." Nor in 1967 when Egypt, Syria and Jordan joined together in a second war of annihilation against Israel.

Look at Gaza today. No Israeli occupation, no settlements, not a single Jew left. The Palestinian response? Unremitting rocket fire killing and maiming Israeli civilians. The declared casus belli of the Palestinian government in Gaza behind these rockets? The very existence of a Jewish state.

Israel's crime is not its policies but its insistence on living. On the day the Arabs -- and the Palestinians in particular -- make a collective decision to accept the Jewish state, there will be peace, as Israel proved with its treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Until that day, there will be nothing but war. And every "peace process," however cynical or well-meaning, will come to nothing.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Bravo!
Bravo Charles Krauthammer!

Fascinating subject
One I never tire reading about, having studied the Jewish Prophets.

Every known world event that concerns the Jews and Israel is found there, and is like reading todays newspaper

Maybe this is a test.....
from GOD?

Succinctly summarized Charles
Well done. Mona Charon recently did the same. Only sixty years. Let's hope the third time is not the charm for the Arabs.


What is to blame for Palestine
The seeds of the Palestinian rancor were allowed to fester by a liberal Israeli policy in place at the very outset. Thinking there was no one who did not desire peace, the Israelis tried to foster classical liberal democracy in the surrounding area, and it did not work.

To the contrary, the classical "no good deed goes unpunished" trope defined the collapse of political growth in "Palestine," and surgical military strikes allowed the Leninist "ballon theory" to come into play.

In short, Israel was too moral about dealing with the thugs in power, and all the gangsters did was play the victim card ad nauseum.

Israel isn't perfect, but they are the best friends we have in the Middle East. The fact that they did not choose to annihilate the Palestinians then, nor have they done so now indicates they are closer to us than any of our other allies save Australia (and their Islamification signals they could be as iffy as Britain or Europe right now).

Let us hope both Israel and the United States have the spine to face up to our common enemies together in the future.

Happy Birthday...
... and it was on our 200th that I became a life-long admirer.

American people 40 years support
Israel.

Gallup Polls on American Sympathy Toward Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians

Gallup Poll results of the most consistently asked question regarding American public attitudes toward the Middle East: "In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with Israel or with the Arab nations?"


Israel %|Arabs %


1967 56 4
1969 50 5
1970 44 3
1973 38 3
1974 38 6
1975 44 8
1975 37 8
1977 44 8
1978 33 14
1979 34 11
1980 45 13
1981 44 11
1982 49 14
1983 49 12
1986 43 20
1988 46 24
1989 50 14
1990 48 23
1991 64 8
1993 42 15
1996 38 15
1997 38 8
1998 46 13
1999 43 14
2000 43 13
2001 51 16
2002 55 14
2003 58 13
2003 46 16
2004 55 18
2005 52 18
_________

Middle East Sympathie. Feb. 6-9 2006. The Gallup Organization, Princeton, NJ

by Religious Preference
Israel % / Arabs %

White Protestants
63 / 14

White Catholics
64 / 13

White other religions
Israel % / Arabs %
66 / 10

White no religion
Israel % / Arabs %
45 / 19

__

by Party Affiliation
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Republicans
72 / 11

Democrats
47 / 20

Independents
49 / 16

____

by Ideology
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Conservatives
67 / 11

Liberals
43 / 25

Moderate
52 / 16
___

by Race
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Whites
58 / 14

Blacks
40 / 24

Top the List of Countries
Seen as Our Closest Allies

How American People Rank the US Closest Allies

1. Great Britain
2. Canada
3. Australia
4. Israel
5. Japan

6.Mexico
7.Italy
8.South Korea
9.Germany
10.Sweden

11.Spain
12.Holland (Netherlands)
13.Taiwan
14.India
15.Norway

16.France
17.Greece
18.Brazil
19.Russia
20.South Africa

21.Chile
22.Colombia
23.Argentina
24.Pakistan
25.China

The Harris Poll® #70, September 14, 2005
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID= 600

God reveals Himself
in the unending tenacity of the Jews. With every reason to turn, like the American Blacks, into a puddle of whining victims that blame every European and Arab in the world and demand that everyone else bow down and recompense them, the Jews battle on and create the desert in bloom.

And just like the Black Americans, the Arabs fight on because what they absolutely cannot face is the in-your-face knowledge that although the Arabs have been crying for millenia that the desert cannot be made to bloom, the Jews are doing it. American Blacks continue to bawl about their inability to overcome a history that affected nobody alive today and very few of their own ancestors, while watching boat people and poor Mexican campesinos survive and succeed and their children become, not drug lords, gangbangers and thugs, but valedictorians, honour students and successful scientists, businessmen and professional.

God reveals Himself in the success of His people who dig in and make the world bloom wherever they are. And with all the reason in the secular world to do so, the Jews are not the least bit interested in blowing Germany to bits. Think about that.

Another first for Israel, not mentioned
For the first time since the 1st century, Israel is once again sending out Christian missionaries. There are, according to WorldNet Daily, at least 20,000 Messianic Jews in the state of Israel and the number continues to grow.

"And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:24

"From the fig tree learn its lesson. As soon as you see its branches become tender and put forth its leaves, you know that summer is near." Matt. 24:32

Boutte....
I've never seen the vicious bigot in Dr. Krauthammer that Boutte describes.
On what planet is Boutte? What does he have against Dr. K? Is Boutte looking for a book deal? Pitiful soul.

AudiR10, nice juxtaposing ...
of the responses of black Americans and the Jews. There is a great quote to remember from Larry Elder's column yesterday.

In his column was an account of play he viewed that was written from the author's personal experience. In 1963, the author was subjected to racism when pressure was applied by white neighbors to prevent the author from buying a home in their neighborhood. Rather than lash out in anger, the author accepted their racism and responded with dignity. It was concluded "...that he considered calm and steadiness an even bolder statement of strength than lashing out in anger."

This is how I view the response of the Jewish people to centuries of hate and prejudism. Noble indeed.

All 12 Tribes Represented among JEWS
Politically, what Krauthammer says requires no amplification. He is right. On the background of his argument, four points: FIRST, it is wrong when people say that only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin remain. The Kingdom of Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdom. The Southern Kingdom took the name of the most numerous tribe and the tribe of its king, Judah (the tribe of King David and later of Jesus). However, the Bible explicitly tells us that people loyal to the king from ALL THE TRIBES rallied to the "legitimate" king (although a tyrant) in Jerusalem in the Southern Kingdom. Thus, ALL 12 TRIBES WERE REPRESENTED in the Southern Kingdom named Judah. SECOND, as Charles notes briefly, we know where the other 10 tribes (the Northern Kingdom) were last sighted: In captivity in Babylon. They were carried off as slaves and not free to leave, far to the East. THIRD, the Bible -- including St. Peter's sermon in Acts 2 -- refers to "Jews" and "Israelites" interchangeably (See Ezra 4, and Nehemiah). Apparently "Jew" was a term invented by Israel's neighbors unfamiliar with the distinctions among the tribes. FOURTH, in God's eyes Israelites who abandon their God and religion are in some ways no longer counted as Israelites. Under the laws of the God of Israel, it was always posisble for converts to join themselves to the nation of Israel (see Ruth) and always possible for apostates to be written off. Therefore, any survivors today who millenia ago abandoned their God completely are not really Israel.

I should have also mentioned ...
in my last post how the Democrats reacted exactly opposite with their response to Bush's speech yesterday. I found it interesting that they would automatically think the President was talking about them when he mentioned appeasement. Think they might have a complex there?

Arab Propaganda Always Like That
Dear Krystallbird -- This is the lying propagana of the Arabs. To point out Muslim crimes is - in their minds -- bigoted. Lets' face it. The Arabs all know they are wrong. They are simply hoping you won't notice, if they lie loud enough.

krystalbird
I'm certain I have Boutte figured out completely. He/she has a conservative/libertarian streak but I think it comes from an atheistic viewpoint. Anything with regards to religion seems to bring out the hate. Correct me if I'm wrong Boutte.

White Man's Burden, Redux.
Must we mid-wife the Muslim world's transition from savagery to civilization?

At what cost to us, to our treasury?

And why stop with the Muslim world?

Are not sub-Saharan Africans deserving of being mid-wifed to civilization too?

Certainly they are members fo the same human race as Muslims.

An entire planet awaits our sacrifice in blood and treasure!

Some seem so smitten with their highblown rhetoric over visions of a world's democratic future, that they are more than willing to volunteer your son or daughter in this "noble" enterprise, and to mortgage your childrens' financial future in its pursuit.

Lest we "o.d." over this swill, let us examine whether it is the role of our Beloved Republic to introduce the world, kicking and screaming, to the blessings of democracy, and whether it might be just a bit presumptuous of us to think we've been ordained with the requisite insights to determine what is best for mankind.

A little humility never hurt anyone.

AudiR10 and Charles
Loved it!! Loved it all!!

You both have a real mastery of communication, and your analysis is 100% correct!!

I'm so happy to see people stand up for Israel. When we look at the way, even after all the pain and destruction, that non-Jewish Middle Easterners keep refusing to make peace with Israel, it makes one understand the wisdom of God in the scriptures when he commanded the people of Israel to go into the camps of their enemies and kill them all; men, women and children.

Some evil runs so deep there is just no redemption possible, and attempting to live with that evil is a fool's folly.

Bravo
Facts are difficult to dispute, that is, unless you are Muslim and an Arab. Lying is condoned in Islam! Just remember this, when discussing all the Arab broken promises, and violence long before the recreation of Israel.

Happy Birthday Israel:-)

Intelligence at Last
Good article and especially a great response from AudiR10..I am quite surprised at the insight of both.....like they say: there really is intelligence out there!

One Chance in 20
I believe Israel is the finest state in the Middle East, but when she is faced with fanatical states in the ME like Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia determined to destroy her I would give her only one chance in 20 of surviving the next decade. I don't see a U.S. Democrat president having the cojones to stop Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, which the fanatics will undoubtedly employ.

Bouette, why is a sick
jerk like you allowed to post? Are you a Moslem or a lefty? What a troll!

Mazel Tov
Mazel Tov Eritz Yisrol...
Thank you Charles Krauthammer.

#9 You Are Mis-Informed ---
Boutte: You are misinformed. Wright grew up rich. And all of us at some point in our lives, rich or poor have been discriminated against. However, we realize hate and opposite opinions in this world and deal with them without being hateful and spewing hate mongering filth to others as Wright continues to do.

So thank you Mr. Krauthammer for stating facts and not mis-informed opinion as fact.

I will be visiting Israel this year and very proud to do so.

Boutte
Agreed, Krauthammer is less than trustworhty (not to mention he looks like an embalmed corpse). And, while all the gushy paens to Israel around here have surely grown tedious and disengenuous, I find your responses to them mean spirited. The people of Israel have indeed achieved great things (I wish they were people of the US).

Israel like the Arabs
Like all men labor under The Biblical indictment,

'everyone is gathered under sin.'

This is not anti-Israel, anti-Arab, anti-Gentile.


This is plain Biblical Truth. It is arrogance of Jews, Arabs, and Gentiles to ignore its truth and repudiate God's offer of salvation from its consequences.

downward trajectory
This column starts in an interesting way, but then descends into the usual Krauthammer drivel.

How exactly would jews respond to having all of the borders of their territory controlled by a hostile foreign power who prevents goods from being sold on the world market, and aid from coming in from outside? One thing that is safe is that anyone who claimed that this was peace and that jews under these circumstances should act passively because at least there are no settlements among them would be accurately blasted as an anti-semite.

There are good arguments in defense of Israelis decisions. But any argument that relies on the idea that the Gazans are now receiving the benefits of peace and so their hostility is revealing of how they would deal with peace, simply shows that the author does not deserve to be taken seriously.

That jews have remained cohesive as a people for so long is in fact a somewhat amazing accomplishment. But the talk of miracles in order to be able to dismiss the humanity of the Palestinians is reprehensible.

Justice
"You rarely hear about Israel's terrible suffering in that 1948-49 war. You hear only the Palestinian side. Today, in the same vein, you hear that Israeli settlements and checkpoints and occupation are the continuing root causes of terrorism and instability in the region."

You are smoking some very strong stuff if you believe the illegal and immoral occupation hasn't increased terrorism and fueled wackos like Bin Laden.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-03-20-bin-laden-tap e_N.htm

See also this site on Palestinians and tell me we shouldn't start to be good Americans and once again show the world we represent justice and noble ambitions.

http://flickr.com/photos/elhamalawy/293437166/

Forget Peace and Justice
until individuals and nations recognize their place 'under sin' and embrace its truth and its remedy. All dialog will be accusations, insults, and retorts choosing to live while denying the truth of His word.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE LOST TRIBES?

.....When is Israel going to nuke Iran? ...

.....It had better be soon or else the tribes of Judah and Benjamin will be joining the other eight and Hebrew will go the way of Latin .....COLOSSUS

More than a miracle.
This is as predicted by the ancient prophets. Israel will prevail and Ishmael, continues to live in hostility toward all his brothers.

krwhite
That sentiment contradicts all the Christianity teaches. Besides Gaza and the occupied territories, as well as Iran have thousands of Christians living in their countries. Interestingly, Iran also has thousands of Jews, the second largest population of Jews in the ME. There is no way to slice this cake, except to accept that its immoral to occupy the West Bank.

Lord, lord, in your name.....
...we've cast out devils and done great miracles in thy name. And I will say to thee, depart from me you workers of inequity, I never knew you.

Do you guys really believe that you are following the way of Christ by your language, continuous support of wars,tryanny and injustice that you'd never accept in your own country; all the while doing it side by side with the people who have killed, denied or abused almost every prophet that God has sent. They're still waiting on the first coming of the Messiah and you guys clearly don't see it or haven't figured out a way to reconcile that just yet.

Arabs and the UN
have promoted Palestinian angst for 60 years. They are like people who left S. Jersey because there were Pineys in the Pinelands, and now, while lobbing missiles from Chester, PA, blather incessantly about their right to return to S. Jersey.
Arabs have refused Palesinians citienship, so someone's family could have now lived in Saudi Arabia for 60 years and not be citizens.
Palestine's great natural leader was from Egypt. Yassir Arafat was Egyptian, as was the infamous Prof. Said who wrote the screed on *orientalism* here, of course, in the US.
When Iran attacks Israel, the first thing Israel should so is annihilate Gaza and the Left Bank, so that when the nuclear dust clears, the Palestinian problem has been solved. As the Arabs insist on calling Israelis Nazis, a little Nazis treatment might do the trick.

Khazaria
It is historically reported the Khazars converted to Judaism in the 8th-9th century AD(CE). Are the Khazars members of the 12 tribes of Israel? Do the Khazars share in the Covenant God promised Abraham? What percentage of the Jews of current day Israel can be traced to the 12 tribes and what percent of the Jews of Israel are converts without biblical connection to ancient Israel and God's covenant? It is important in this context to recognize God's Covenant is with the Israelites, not the Jews. The Jewish religion did not exist until 400-500 years (est) after Moses.

Reply to RW at post #27
Your disgusting "he looks like an embalmed corpse" put-down of Krauthammer was uncalled for, and is relevatory your underlying cruelty. Given the health burdens that are his, would that you could accomplish one iota of Charles Krauthammer has.

Yo R.A.M.
If you are a Christian, then you are supposed to treat Israel the same way David did Saul. He viewed Saul as God's Anointed and therefore God's problem to personally deal with. If you remember, David refused to kill Saul when he had the opportunity despite Saul pursuing and
trying to kill him.
God chose the children of Israel just like He anointed Saul. Be careful how you deal with God's Anointed. He doesn't like people assuming His position of judge over His Chosen.

Israel's Nuclear Capability
Off point--I confess but I have a few points to ponder. Where did Israel get its nuclear arsenal? Has Israel ever conducted a nuclear test, if so, where and when? Can a functioning nuclear arsenal be developed without tests? Is there any evidence Israel has ever enriched Uranium to weapons grade Uranium? Did the US violate the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, which we signed, by giving Israel nuclear weapons from our arsenal to ensure Israel's survival? Here is my guess at the answers in the order asked: From the US. No. No. No. Yes. These are the succinct answers; I can expand, if necessary.

Lost Tribes
The lost tribes of Israel are nearer than you think.

Richard

Ralph
Who created Israel? The US using the auspices of the UN or God? American Christians celebrate Israel based on Biblical prophesies and God's Covenant with the Israelites. Is it generally accepted God wanted to establish Israel in 1948 or did we interfere and create Israel in a time and perhaps place God had not intended? Is that possible?

Response to Warrior (#42)
I personally believe that God did set 1948 as the specific date for Israel's reestablishment.

Also, another date (which you didn't mention) plays into it--1939/09/03, the day that France and UK officially initiated a "State of War" with Nazi Germany. As the date was a Sunday, it showed UK's turning-back on God--and laid the foundation for UK's quick loss of empire after WW2 (in the case of France, it had turned ITS back in late 1700's with French Revolution).

PK
Hey, I could have said he looks like an unembalmed corpse. ;)

mccain made a speech remember
a long time ago in a land far away (yesterday to be specific) rep presieentail candidate Mcain mad a speech, which he himself labeled major. it as a "wouldnt it be loverly" designed to fit into the first act of My Fair Lady.
repyublicans did not notice,

Shalom
Thank you Mr. Krauthammer for that excellent perspective on modern Israel's 60th anniversary.

Making the desert bloom, though, was nothing compared to the challenge of turning the soil of the Arab heart. (And all human hearts bent on hate without reason.)

Strangely, the irrational hatred of you (Israel) is a testimony that you are more the making of God than the product of this world. And whether you know it or not, you are but a signpost toward the One who came specifically to bring life to just such hearts. That is our real hope. That is real peace.

I think more miracles are in order-- with all due credit going to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Happy Birthday Israel!

The Chosen
Is deeply misunderstood by both Jews and Christians in some percentage.

Nothing was known about the Creation or the Mind of God until He revealed Himself to chosen men.
Not every man received such honor, just a few.

If one counts the authors of both the Old and New Testaments, and the time involved from Moses to the Apostles, the number is very small.

Chosen men of God, who had first believed Him and then received Inspiration from the Holy One Himself.

Abraham was not a Jew, he is the father of the Jewish nation and all the Nations of the mid-east.

Ge 17:4 -
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Ge 17:5 -
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

From that time to this, there are just a very few men who were chosen of God to reveal His Will, and Nature to mankind.

God made a covenant with Abraham, that through his loins the Lord Himself would come to this earth and set up His Kingdom among men.

Confirmed this very promise to David, one of the chosen.
God deals with the Jews as a Nation, He deals with Gentiles as individuals.

But individual Jews, are held to the same Words of Salvation, Warning and Judgment, God God has revealed to all men.

Through a very few men whose names make up the Holy Scriptures found in just 66 books combined making up the Holy Bible.
All these men were Jews, the seed of Abraham.


Republicans And Israel
At its monthly meeting held on May 14th, which coincided with the State of Israel's 60th anniversary as a nation, the Republican Executive Committee of Martin County, Florida unanimously passed the following resolution:

"The Republican Executive Committee congratulates The State of Israel on its 60th anniversary as a nation. We take a special pride in President's Bush's closeness to Israel and in the fact that he will be addressing the Israeli Knesset (parliament) tomorrow."

The resolution symbolizes the historic closeness of the Republican Party to Israel.

In 1948, during the time period leading up to Israel's declaration of independence Republican Congressional leaders and Republican presidential candidate Thomas Dewey condemned the slowness of the Truman Administration to act on securing the entry of Jewish refugees and concentration camp survivors to what wan then called British Palestine.

In 1956 President Eisenhower secured United Nations forces to patrol the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip which ended terrorist activity against Israel for 11 years.

In 1973 President Nixon air lifted crucial supplies to Israel after the dastardly Arab attack on her on Yom Kippur, the most holy Jewish day.

During the 1980s President Reagan greatly increased security assistance to Israel as well as economic and trade relations. He was, up to today, Israel's greatest friend among American presidents, according to New York Times columnist Anthony Lewis.

In 1991 President George H.W. Bush sent Arrow missile batteries to Israel to protect against Iraqi Scud missile attacks and on May 15th President George H. Bush was hailed by the Israeli Prime Minister as a great friend and supporter and given a standing ovation by the Israeli Knesset members.

Republicans take pride in all of this because there is much to be proud of in it. We are certain that this tradition will be carried on by Senator John McCain.




Lost tribes myth
While I agree with much of what Mr. Krauthammer
says, I wish he wouldn't perpetuate the myth of the 10 last tribes. As he notes, Brits and Americans used to think the American Indians were the 10 last tribes, an idea picked up by the Mormons. Jehovah's Witnesses think they are the lost tribes, etc., etc. The Bible (2 Chronicles 30) says that Hezekiah invites folks from the northern kingdom of Israel to join the southern kingdom for a Passover revival. Thus a remnant of the 10 tribes rejoined Judah in worshipping the God of Israel. Furthermore, Ezra repeatedly emphasizes that all 12 tribes were represented in the return of a remnant from exile in Babylon to rebuild the Temple and Jerusalem. The New Testament (Luke 2:36) notes Anna (Hannah), the prophetess in the Temple, was from the tribe of Asher. To this day, there are Levys, Levines, Cohens and Katzes who are most likely descended from the tribe of Levi. Thus a remnant of all 12 tribes (not just Judah and Benjamin) are included in the people who were called Jews in the first century and today.
Glenn Blank (Messianic Rabbi, Beit Simcha, http://www.beitsimcha.org)

Catastrophe or Independence
One fifth of the Israeli population was not celebrating "independence" but was remembering al-Nakaba, the Catastrophe of 1948 that befell the Palestinian people as the Jewish state was built on the destruction of their society.

As it has been doing for the past decade, Israel’s Palestinian minority staged an alternative act of commemoration: a procession of families, many of them refugees from the 1948 war, to one of more than 400 Palestinian villages erased by Israel in a monumental act of state vandalism after the fighting. The villages were destroyed to ensure that the 750,000 Palestinians expelled from the state under the cover of war never return.

But in a sign of how far Israel still is from coming to terms with the circumstances of its birth, this year’s march was forcibly broken up by the Israeli police. They clubbed unarmed demonstrators with batons and fired tear gas and stun grenades into crowds of families that included young children.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook05162008.html

--
Peace,
S Virk


Money and suooprt of US made the desert
The miracle of Israel is a bit exagerate. How much money did we give the Israelis? The amount over the years would wipe out cancer, diabetes, and all other chronic diseases in the world.

We are their best friend but they sink our Liberty, steal our reseach and treat as their patsies who will support them without questioning what they are doing. There were several democracies in the middle east sixty years ago but they were sabotged accoding to CIA operatives in the area because it would be easier to deal with dicators than with democracies.

I do not understand one thing and I wish someone would explain to me: People of the Jewish faith do not wnat other to adopt their religion--one of my best friend tried to convert-- for what reason? Us the anoninted and the rest are gentiles? An exclusive club ? I noticed that Israel was shocked when PM Rabin was killed but the killings of non jewish people seem not to raise an eyebrow.

The Arabs deserve many if not most of the things said about them . However, they are human beings like the rest of us. They have suffered and their suffering continues and will continue... for how long, the Lord only knows.

Fighting over the land
The leaders of the Jews rejected and tried to have killed Jesus, the Messiah. Shortly thereafter they were punished with expulsion from the land. The Christians eventually gained control of Israel but never offered it back to the Jews. Then the Muslims took it from the Christians. The Jews held the land from right after the time of Moses to just after the time of Jesus, a period of about 1300 years. The Muslims held the land from right after the time of Muhammad until very recently, a period also of about 1300 years. Is this a coincidence? The descendants of the two sons of Abraham have held onto the land for equal amounts of time and today the Jews and Muslims fight over it. Who can say this is mere coincidence? The Jews will never gain control and peace in the land because they have broken their covenant with God and are cursed. The Muslims appear to be in the same boat and both groups need to ask themselves what they can do to correct the errors of their ways.

And, no, the answer is not "accept Jesus as your lord and savior" as this is rightly considered blasphemy by both Jews and Muslims.
--
Peace,
S Virk


Many are called, but a few are Chosen
Mt 22:14 -
For many are called, but few are chosen

Every man on this planet has a Calling from God.
Not every man has been Chosen of God.

Just a few men have received such Honor from the Creator to speak for Him.
God is not the Author of Confusion, so He never Chose to Reveal Himself through a Committee, a Group Think Tank, a Religion, a Government of men, nor a Denomination.

He Chose just a Few Men.
Men who Believed God.
Men who Honored God.
Their Voice's still Live today and will Forever Live and are as Clear today as they were when First Given.

There has NEVER existed a single man who KNOWS the Mind of God that has not FIRST OPENED HIS OWN EARS, to the Words of these Selected men of God.
Whose voice do you listen to today?
There are millions and millions of voices in the world, and none have learned a single TRUTH from God that does not FIRST open their EARS to hear the VOICES of the Chosen Men of God.
From Moses to the Apostles.
All the divisions found today in religion come from men not chosen of God, but have the power to speak and the simple among men who believe them.

All religion is based in the words of some man.
Choose who you listen to very carefully, cause God has already Made His Choice among us all, and without any confusion.

No man knows anything except he first learn the Scriptures.

God is NOT the Author of Confusion
Men are.

The Book, the Bible is available for all men to learn the Will of God.

Lu 24:27 -
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Who did Moses and the Prophets write about?
Every one knows the answer, cause God has made Himself known to all men through their voices.
Not a religion, but a WAY of LIFE.

Joh 1:1 -
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



One of the confused among men
svirk Location: NY
-----

This man has a voice too
An unlearned voice, a confused voice, even as he has the power to call for "peace".

His ways will never see or bring any peace, only bitter debate from his confusion and biased mind, sowed to his very soul by the fools and the liars he has chosen to believe.
And not the men Chosen of God.
But he has chosen to believe a False Prophet, a liar.

Mt 7:15 -
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The bible as authority and Charles
Kudos to Krautheimer who infuses facts into his writings. ANd to the person who uses the "bible" as authority - you need to study history and see that tehre were many versions of the "stories" told back then and about 183 of these out of the many that were written or told, became codified and thus the bible was "created." It is a histoy of the times but it is NOT an authority nor is it the "word of God." It is just that - an historical rendering of events that occurred many years ago.

pistol packing mama
Why would you limit God's ability to perform miracles? For the creator of the Universe, making sure that his word was transcribed for us in the Bible seems small potatoes.

Right Again
Can't ever get enough of the Hammer. Once again, to the point without being osentatious or making me (gun-toting, religious nut) feel stupid for not being as smart. Thanks Charles.

Voices, we all have a voice
And all men CHOOSE who they believe.
ALL MEN(includes wo-man), this one included.
------

pistol packing mama Location: CO

1:37 PM EST
Subject: The bible as authority and Charles
Kudos to Krautheimer who infuses facts into his writings. ANd to the person who uses the "bible" as authority - you need to study history and see that tehre were many versions of the "stories" told back then and about 183 of these out of the many that were written or told, became codified and thus the bible was "created." It is a histoy of the times but it is NOT an authority nor is it the "word of God." It is just that - an historical rendering of events that occurred many years ago.
------

God has said He has given us His Plan.
Now all men can decide if they believe Him or this woman, and any other of their own choice.

As for me, I will believe God, cause ALL men are liars.

"Let God be TRUE, and ALL men liars"

Ro 3:4 - S
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

Native Americans
Native Americans are not the lost Tribe(s) of Israel. Conclusive DNA testing has shown that. It was never a part of Native American oral history, which was later written.

There is a book on the race (verb) to get the first Bible published in English. It is worth a read. The King James Version was the first. There are more accurate translations of the Bible available today. Further, they are easier to read. There is no reason to suppose that God spoke Elizabethan English other than to those who prayed to Him and to whom He spoke during the time that it was spoken. God is not, and never was, frozen in time.

Let's get it Right
"Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, and others in the colonial world narrated these events as part of a different story. The European powers that won the war were also the major colonial powers and used their domination of the United Nations and the world scene to create a state in Palestine without consulting its inhabitants, who naturally resisted. Some saw this as part of an ongoing struggle of Muslims against their enemies, who aimed to destroy them."

http://icga.blogspot.com/2008/04/rubin-against-holocaust-de nial-against.html

This post is a must read for better understanding of the Palestinian/Israeli question.

A very sly piece
Doesn't Krauthammer hate the UN, like every good conservative? As I recall the vote to establish Israel would have been defeated by the UN countries until Truman started twisting the arms of 17 different countries who knuckled under at a threat to their foreign aid.

And who is the UN to decide on states for both Israel and the Palestinians? This was always unacceptable to the Palestinians and to say that they are at fault for rejecting a "compromise" is to raise sophistry to new heights.

zedsmom wrote:
> Native Americans are not the lost Tribe(s)
> of Israel.

But if the Native Americans held up some ancient scripture claiming the Americas belonged to them who here would consider it reasonable to hand all their land back to them? And they have only had it taken from them 500 years ago while the Jews were removed from Jerusalem almost 2000 years ago.
--
Peace,
S Virk

svirk
But, they didn't and I don't know that a hypothetical like that answers the pros and cons for the creation of Israel. Native Americans did not lose their lands until recently, as history goes. When they gave over their lands, by force often, the government generally had them sign agreements. The government rarely lived up to their part of the agreement. There was much violence in objecting to and in enforcing some governmental demands. While many argue Wounded Knee, a better example would probably be the Trail of Tears. Some western tribes got land close to, some on, the land they claimed. Others didn't but got land.

JimP
What is your definition of Gentile?

False claim, massive ignorance
zedsmom Location: LA
- 2:44 PM EST


There is a book on the race (verb) to get the first Bible published in English. It is worth a read. The King James Version was the first. There are more accurate translations of the Bible available today. Further, they are easier to read. There is no reason to suppose that God spoke Elizabethan English other than to those who prayed to Him and to whom He spoke during the time that it was spoken. God is not, and never was, frozen in time.
-----

Straw man arguments, and an unlearned judgment.
No one has ever claimed God speaks English or German to begin with.
He understand all languages.

Nor that He can only understand Elizabethan English
Nor does He require anyone else to use just Elizabethan English.
He did Choose the time to bring His Word to the English speaking world though.
He done that when the English Language had real meaning to the words used for communication.

Unlike the twisted world of a lawyer in their use of English, to make it say just anything they decide a word should mean.

There is no more accurate version or translation from the Hebrew and the Greek than the 70 Language Scholars translated into English under King James.

I recommend to anyone who wants to understand how accurate the KJV is to just read the history behind its publication.
And ignore "voices" like this one from zedsmom



Jimmy carter
Too bad peace prize winner J carter hasn't been able to stop the action there.....or ANYWHERE else.... maybe he should live a while and "relate"

Talent Scout
Awfully touchy, aren't you! I invite anyone and everyone to read the histories of all the translations. If you like the KJV best, that's your choice.

In your post #57, what is that last cite you give?

zedsmom sees me as touchy
Subject: Talent Scout
Awfully touchy, aren't you!
---
ts:
No
Quite a different feeling as I am not much of a touchy feely person.
-------------

zedsmom writes:


I invite anyone and everyone to read the histories of all the translations. If you like the KJV best, that's your choice.
-----
ts:
I agree
Your claim there are better translations, more accurate. None exist that are either.
----
zedsmom writes:

In your post #57, what is that last cite you give
-------
King James never translated a single word of the KJV.
It was just named after him cause he brought the Language Scholars together to translate it from the Hebrew and the Greek.
Learned men in a time when they had few worldly distractions and dedicated to the art of language.

This book has brought more people to the Lord than any other translation.
The words have the same meaning today as they did in England in the early 1600's.

That alone is worth reading it for, to actually understand English.
Jesus is Lord means, He is indeed Lord.
Not a subject to talk about, but recognize it means what it says.

Is God "in" Christ? Or "with" Christ?
Big difference in what these two small words mean.

Only the King James says God was IN Christ.
All other translations say He was "with" Christ.

This has tremendous meaning as it relates directly to who Jesus Christ is.
The Messiah, God in the flesh, or a Prophet only.

Does God abide in men or just with men?
The King James makes it clear God abides in men.
Men who seek Him

Talent Scout
I know King James did not translate the KJV. I never said that.

I agree that many souls have been brought to the Lord by the use of the KJV; and, for that I am grateful. You are entitled, as I posted previously, to use KJV as your favored translation. You are entitled to say it is the best translation. I am not arguing that. I am not arguing. I am making an observation. I am entitled to that.

Jesus was, is, and ever shall be the Messiah.

What is the last cite you gave at post 57? I try to look up all cites given in TH posts, whether it be history, current politics, religion, or any other topic. I would appreciate some clarification so I can look it up and read it.

Thank you.

Talent Scout
"There is no more accurate version or translation from the Hebrew and the Greek than the 70 Language Scholars translated into English under King James."

I don't think that you can support that. Newer translations used better and more ancient manuscripts, and also improved scholarship. Also, the English language has changed, so that many of the words used in the AV no longer are intelligible to many or have the same meaning as they did then.

Proud Liberal
Check your facts. The Arabs had sold large portions of their lands in Palestine to returning Jewish emigrees prior to WW2. The records are subject to debate because the Nazis destroyed many of them in a major land grab, setting aside the deeds as belonging to Jews (who weren't allowed, under Nazism, to own land). The Arabs thought this was just fine, they could repossess the land they had previously sold. The British, however, had a fair idea of how much land had passed -- about 40 percent of the private land in the Mandate was in Jewish hands (bought fairly) before WW2. Thus, when the Mandate was partitioned, the British did so based upon their estimation of about 40 percent being in Jewish hands previously. As the Arab Palestinians had been dealing low with the Jewish settlers during WW2, they should have been more willing to cooperate and accept the compromise. When they chose to attack Israel, they got what they asked for -- a lack of compromise. Typically, when you lose a war, the winning opponent gets to set the terms. The Israelis' history on that is checkered, but when the Arabs knocked down the nice buildings on the returned West Bank farms a couple of years ago, that was indicative of their continuing inability to ever compromise.

Pistol Packing Mama
Been reading much Dan Brown lately?

You may not be aware of it but there are many scholars who have worked over several centuries in the areas of Bible history, archeology and textual criticism. Your idea that Biblical Christianity is just one view of Christian history is unsupportable. Do a web search for Daniel B. Wallace, considered even by liberal scholars to be one of the best textual critics alive today. You might just get your facts straight, although you seem to be more one of those who just accepts what some crackpot writes. Wouldn't want to muddy the waters with the findings of actual scholars, now would we?

Rich D.
You make the point better than I. In Shakespeare, for example, when one play has the line "get thee to a nunnery", it does not mean that the woman should become a nun. It actually meant whorehouse.

Thanks.

Yes I can
Rich D.
Date: May 16, 2008 - 4:29 PM EST
Subject: Talent Scout
"There is no more accurate version or translation from the Hebrew and the Greek than the 70 Language Scholars translated into English under King James."


Rich D.
I don't think that you can support that. Newer translations used better and more ancient manuscripts, and also improved scholarship. Also, the English language has changed, so that many of the words used in the AV no longer are intelligible to many or have the same meaning as they did then.
------
I can do it if you believe you can.
Whats to stop me?
I am a purist and do not believe any word can be chosen because it makes easier reading for todays slang infested American use of the English Language

zedsmom
You ask me this:
"What is the last cite you gave at post 57?"

I went to read that post and did not see why you have this question.

Can you copy and paste what it is you want a cite from em about?
Sorry, I just do not understand what that is.

Talent Scout
Ro 3:4 S
What is this? Romans? What is the S?

aurorawatcher
Great posts!!! Great synopsis of 'Palestinian' land history.

Thanks!

Shakespeare was not writing Scriptures
He was writing poetry and entertainment.

The Scholars under King James were Dedicated to Language in their meaning as given from the Original Hebrew and Greek

zedsmom, you are wrong about Shakespeare's meaning too.


"Get thee to a nunn'ry," he exhorts Ophelia to put herself away so that she may never breed sinners like Hamlet.

http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/get-thee-nunn-ry

A typo
zedsmom - 5:00 PM EST
Talent Scout
Ro 3:4 S
What is this? Romans? What is the S?
----
ts:
The "S" should not be there.
It is Romans

I deleted the "show context" except for the "S".
Sorry for my very bad typing skills.


Romans 3:4 - Show Context
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Israel and the Arab and Persian Attitude
It has to be one of the most perplexing questions in the history of civilization as to why Irael's neighbors will not accept the practical reality of the existence of Israel.
Surely, Israel's neighbors are not inherently evil or stupid.

Talent Scout
I was giving information on Shakespeare from Donald Moore, Ph.D. in Elizabethan playwrights.

Proud Liberal
"And who is the UN to decide on states for both Israel and the Palestinians? This was always unacceptable to the Palestinians and to say that they are at fault for rejecting a "compromise" is to raise sophistry to new heights." Reply #60.
So...you agree with the Palestinians that Israel has no right to exist?

Meat to the Wolves
It has become fashionable on the Left to allow Israel to be sacrificed to the wolves (Hamas, Hezbollah & the Iranian mullahs). After that, their appetite will be satisfied, or so said Neville Chamberlain after meeting with Hitler at Munich.
If our only democratic ally in the Middle East is abandoned, the future of the West is "blowing in the wind." Never again.
Shalom, Charles!

KJV, 1611
"But the feareful, and vnbeleeuing, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all lyars, shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone which is the second death."

I suspect yours is from a much later 1769 edition, but without the Apocrypha. Well and good if you can read this, but it gets in the way for many.

The King James Bible Word Book by Ronald Bridges and Luther A. Weigle, published by Thomas Nelson Publishers, states the following on the inside jacket:

"Did you know that in the King James Version of the Bible the word 'advertise' means 'tell,' 'allege' means 'prove,' and 'conversation' means 'behavior'? That 'communicate' means 'share,' 'take through' means 'be anxious,' and 'prevent' means 'precede'? That 'meat' is a general term for 'food,' and 'anon' and 'by and by' translate Greek words which mean 'immediately'?

Many would be confused by the end of this:

"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed"(KJV).

Does your translation read this:

"To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen" (NIV).

or this:

"To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen" (KJV)?

Notice the serious omission of "through Jesus Christ our Lord." There are also many omissions of the definite article that is present in the Greek, and even more insertions of them where they are not.

Do any of your translations use the correct continuous tense in Jn 3:16:

"that every one who is believing in him may not perish"?

Inquirer
The left only wants what Ronald Reagan, the UN and every decent fellow in the world wants.. Israel to get out of the West Bank. Is it asking the squatters on Palestinian land to go back home?

God to Israel: Got faith?
Arabs must ultimately accept--or destroy--the Jewish stste as a prerequisite for peace. "Until that day," Krauthammer says, "there will be nothing but war."

Since the time if Ishmael, historical animosities have inculcated every generation of Arab youth with hatred toward the Jews. Consequently, when Israel goes to war, it fights not only against flesh and blood, but against phantom enemies from the past that it's Arab neighbors have so far refused to exorcise from their collective memory. Because this "narrative of dispossession" is so ingrained in the Arab DNA, the Muslim mindset will never accept a Zionist presence.

Krauthammer claims that it was nothing short of miraculous when Israel became a nation. Despite all the world's diplomacy--and the likes of Carter, Clinton, Bush and Obama--it will take nothing short of a miracle man to keep the Jewish state intact.

(Clue: The Bible calls this latter-day figure the "Anti-Christ", and many prophetic scholars believe he's currently waiting in the wings to bring about this long-awaited rapprochement. Empirically speaking, only time will tell.






Spelling is one thing
Word for word translation quite another.





Rich D. 5:56 PM EST
Subject: KJV, 1611
"But the feareful, and vnbeleeuing, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all lyars, shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone which is the second death."

I suspect yours is from a much later 1769 edition, but without the Apocrypha. Well and good if you can read this, but it gets in the way for many.
--------

The 70 Scholars in 1611 were the experts when the need for an English Bible came to be.

God rules in the Kingdom of men, He chose the time, and the men in my own personal unchanging opinion after many years of study, and contact with my Creator through reading and praying for understanding.
And never reading any translation for study except the KJV and I loveth it only.

The History of the English Bible
A fascinating read.


http://www.williamtyndale.com/0biblehistory.htm

Exodus
Last year, after reading an endorsement by Michael Medved, I read "Exodus" by Leon Uris. If anyone wants to read and excellent novel about Israel's rebirth, immerse yourself in this fine literature.

KJV vs. others
One of the more interesting discrepancies in the translations is in Gen. 22:8 - showing that God reveals His plan to us early on:

KJV: And Abraham said, My son, God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering...

NIV: Abraham answered, God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering my son...

NLT: God will provide a lamb, my son, Abraham answered...

NASB: God will provide for himself the lamb forthe burnt offering, my son....

What would Churchill say?
"No British statesman had a more consistent and more emphatic record of...support for Zionism as a solution to the Jewish problem than Winston Churchill." Churchill considered the establishment of the State of Israel "as one of the most hopeful and encouraging adventures of the 20th century." Only eight months subsequent to the proclamation of the State, Churchill suggested to the House of Commons that "The coming into being of a Jewish State in Palestine is an event in world history to be viewed in the perspective not of a generation or a century, but in the perspective of a thousand, two thousand or even three thousand years." (WinstonChurchill.org)

Fred Thomas: "For us conservatives
it must be about principles and policies..."

Isn't that poor word usage, for a presidential candidate? It should read: For we conservatives...

Sorry. There was no reply space on that thread.


Thanks for the reminder, Maximilion
Good summer reading.

King James Version of the Bible
accompanied by the Science and Health, with KEY to the scriptures, (by Mary Baker Eddy) which defines CHRIST. "The divine manifestation of God, which comes to the flesh to destroy incarnate error".

I know Christ to be the highest consecration with God, made manifest.

Churchill
"I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism" - Speaking in the House of Commons, 1937.

Churchill isn't he kind of guy I'd go around quoting. Pretty dang handy to have around though when fighting Nazis!

"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes" - Writing as president of the Air Council.

"I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place" - Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937.

"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievements. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations" - From 'Great Contemporaries', 1937.

She writes, in her Glossary:
"Children of Israel. The representatives of Soul, not corporeal sense; the offspring of Spirit, who, having wrestled with error, sin, and sense, are governed by devine Science; some of the ideas of God beheld as men, casting out error and healing the sick; Christ's offspring."

To me, that means that Jews, as all men, are God's through Christ* (spiritually consecrated by Love, Truth, Mind, Life, Principle, Spirit, Intelligence).

*reference above.

Is Israel similar to America's birth?
In 1920, Winston Churchill told the House of Commons: 'Anyone who has seen the work of the Jewish colonies which have been established during the last twenty or thirty years in Palestine will be struck by the enormous productive results which they have achieved.'

From 'the most inhospitable soil, surrounded on every side by barrenness and the most miserable form of cultivation,' he had been driven into a fertile and thriving country estate, where the scanty soil gave place to good crops and good cultivation, and then to vineyards and finally to the most beautiful, luxurious orange groves, all created in twenty or thirty years by the exertions of the Jewish community who live there.'

What Churchill had seen and heard ... impressed on him how precarious the work of the farmers could be, and how essential it was for Britain to protect them. 'I defy anybody, after seeing work of this kind, achieved by so much labour, effort and skill, to say that the British Government, having taken up the position it has, could cast it all aside and leave it to be rudely and brutally overturned by the incursion of a fanatical attack by the Arab population from outside,' he told the House of Commons on his return to Britain. It would be 'disgraceful if we allowed anything of the kind to take place. I am talking of what I saw with my own eyes. All round the Jewish colony, the Arab houses were tiled instead of being built of mud, so that the culture from this centre has spread out into the surrounding district.” (Gilbert, “Churchill and the Jews” 2007)

Similarities to the American spirit?


Go figger
Does anyone doubt that war in that region would end if the arabs stopped making it? Does anyone think the Isaelis want anything but peace?

And yet, our anti-war left is more sympathetic to them than to the Israelis. Go figger.


What became of the vineyards and fertile lands that the Israeli's made out of desert and handed over to them?
They spend all their time making bombs to lob at schools and marketplaces.
The people are hostage to their leaders, who are addicted to war (it's more exciting than farming, roadbuilding and trash collection, I suppose).

Talent Scout
"And never reading any translation for study except the KJV and I loveth it only."

But you never address the issues. You claimed to be ready to debate, but just stated more opinion.

The fact is that scholarship has improved, the language is archaic, and there are errors. Answer this: Do you use the original 1611 edition including the Apocrypha? If not, why not?

True peace
They will cry "Peace" but there will be none until one day a man will appear who will capture the allegiance of the world, sit in the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God. But he will be a "Beast" with a false prophet by his side, cloaking his true nature, and the Jews will proclaim him as their Messiah. There shall be "peace" for 3 1/2 yrs. and all the nations will come to worship. Then this charlatan will launch a horrific war against Israel but the true Messiah--the Prince of Peace--shall come and Israel will be saved. With this history already written, no President will ever solve the mideast turmoil.

You mis-read me then

Subject: Talent Scout
"And never reading any translation for study except the KJV and I loveth it only."
===========

Rich D. 12:05 AM EST
But you never address the issues. You claimed to be ready to debate, but just stated more opinion.
=======
ts:
No, you are looking for a debate, not me.
There is no debate to consider from my view.
You can take and put up any information you prefer to believe, fine with me, cause I already know what I believe.
Nor am I interested in wasting time over your choice in who and what you believe.
Nothing in that to debate and is a waste of time and effort.
You choose, I choose, debate is over.
You have no information I have not seen before now.
And STILL prefer the KJV, period.
============
Rich D. 12:05 AM EST
The fact is that scholarship has improved, the language is archaic, and there are errors. Answer this: Do you use the original 1611 edition including the Apocrypha? If not, why not?
=======
ts:
I do not accept your premise
I explained I use the updated spelling version, and not the 1611, which words still mean the same thing, just spelled different.

You can fault that all you want to, and still means nothing to me, as it's a matter of CHOICE, and that is IT.

I have chosen the KJV, period.
You choose any one you like, no debate needed.
You can spend the rest of your life justifying your choice, and it will still not change me to come to accept the version you do, ok?

I will Die believing in the KJV as the very best version, period.

How many ancient documents
Have been translated into English from the Original Greek or Latin?
Let alone Hebrew?

No Book in the world has had so many Scholars transcribe, check and recheck with an extremely critical eye as the Bible?

NONE.
Everything some modern man has checked, has been thought over long ago and already checked, by hundreds of thousands of scholars, and millions and millions of believers.

Dead Sea Scrolls. In 1946, hundreds of scrolls and fragments were found in eleven caves in northern Israel. Texts from every book of the Old Testament were found, with the lone exception of Esther. Of most importance are two Isaiah scrolls, which are dated between 200 to 50 B.C. One of them has been wonderfully preserved and contains the book of Isaiah in its entirety. When this text of Isaiah was compared to the book of Isaiah in the Masoretic text, there was nearly a 100% correlation between the two, which indicated that the Hebrew text has been marvelously preserved from a time before Jesus until the present

1) Greek Manuscripts. Approximately 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament have survived in the original language.

2) Ancient Versions. By the second century, the New Testament was being translated into different languages. Syriac, Latin, Coptic and other translations provide valuable sources from which to compare.

3) Early Church Fathers. Within 300 years of Christ, almost 36,000 quotations of the New Testament appear in the writings of the early church fathers. In fact, every verse in the New Testament is quoted but 11.

Causes that created the need for the KJV
Moreover, the statute of Valencia and other statutes had made it illegal for anyone not authorized by the church to have even the Latin and Greek versions of the of the Bible.

The laity therefore had to rely on the church, government and powers that be for understanding and interpreting these documents.

The De Heretico Comburendo statute stated:

...that none...presume to preach openly or privily, without the license of the diocesan of the same place first required and obtained, curates in their own churches and persons hitherto privileged, and other of the Canon Law granted, only except; nor that none from henceforth anything preach, hold, teach, or instruct openly or privily, or make or write any book contrary to the catholic faith or determination of the Holy Church, nor of such sect and wicked doctrines and opinions shall make any conventicles, or in any wise hold or exercise schools; and also that none from henceforth in any wise favor such preacher or maker of any such and like conventicles, or persons holding or exercising schools, or making or writing such books, or so teaching, informing, or exciting the people, nor any of them maintain or in any wise sustain, and that all and singular having such books or any writings of such wicked doctrine and opinions, shall really with effect deliver or cause to be delivered all such books and writings to the diocesan of the same place within forty days from the time of the proclamation of this ordinance and statute.


http://www.zionism-israel.com/old_testament/KingJamesBibleH istory.html

.....
----Dead Sea Scrolls. In 1946, hundreds of scrolls and fragments were found in eleven caves in northern Israel.----

To go off on a tangent to talent scout's comment......

The Dead Sea scrolls are 2000 years old; Jews are able to read them [the Scrolls are in Hebrew] yet the arabs are unable to read them. The notion the Jews are occupying arab lands is preposterous. Jews have inhabited that land since time immemorial. Also, the Turks who ruled over the region including Israel for 400 years controlled the land. The effendi owned the land, not Arabs. Jews bought the malaria infested swamp lands and Godforsaken areas from the Turks and turned dust to vegetation. After the British took control of “Palestine” [all inhabitants- Jews, Muslims, Druze- were referred to as Palestinians] they tried to limit the Jews purchase of land. What Israel accumulated it did so legally, not to mention spoils of war.

out of the mouth of babes, perhaps...
could Israel have moved to a new spot and cultivated IT?

were they brought to this world by God, to cultivate the entire world, one place at a time?

could they have missed THAT calling?

just wondering.

Remember God calls us to His work
for His purpose. Not ours.

Maybe these were chosen people, for a chosen purpose. Maybe we do not understand that purpose.

Material reasons never seem to be our Heavenly Father's reasons. For He is spiritual. Not material.

Just for the sake of new perspective. Will you consider what might have been different then; had they followed that command? Remained peaceful warriors and pushed on (as Jesus might). Fully trusting in the Lord.

Hmmm.

Misreading?
RD: I don't think that you can support that.

TS: I can do it if you believe you can.

This is where I got the idea. If I'm wrong about what you meant, fine.

Anyway, I think that one should have more than one translation and read them together.

If you read the one with the spelling corrected only, then you read and trust the Apocrophya. The original goal was to translate Scripture into common language and you seem to be happy with one that is no longer meeting that goal. Fine, as long as you realize that it is personal preference and find a way to overcome its errors.

Talent Scout
"I do not accept your premise"

It's not my or even a premise - it is the conclusion of scholars. Fine.

More error in KJV
llroot Reply # 89
Date: May 16, 2008 - 7:57 PM EST Subject: KJV vs. others

"One of the more interesting discrepancies in the translatKJV: And Abraham said, My son, God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering is in Gen. 22:8 - showing that God reveals His plan to us early on:

KJV: And Abraham said, My son, God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for a burnt offering..."

----0----

Do you read Hebrew or did you look it up? First, Jesus, though called a Lamb, was never a burnt offering, so you misinterpret what is happening here with Isaac and make the text lie. Second, He provided a real lamb. Third, the KJV translation is in error.

The translators omitted a preposition (“for”) and a definite article (“the”). If the translators had worked correctly, the translation would read: “God will provide (see) for himself (him) the lamb (flockling) for a burnt offering (ascent)” (Genesis 22:8 ESV).

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen22. pdf

One needs to study Scripture in a group with leaders who know these things.

I understand
Rich D. - 10:04 AM EST
Subject: Talent Scout
"I do not accept your premise"

It's not my or even a premise - it is the conclusion of scholars. Fine.
-----
Yet
For every scholar who you have chosen to hear and accept their view, I can show you scholars who see it the way I do.

Its this basic for me Rich
The Lord Himself can and is found by the believers in the KJV.
That is good enough for me

Look out below............
All things considered, the Presidents visit to "the holy land" is a matter of survival for him and Israel. He firmly believes that Iran is close to getting the bomb and he only has a few months left to act on that unacceptable possibility. The President knows that Israel has better intelegence than we do and that Israel will never allow Iran to lob nuclear tipped scudds at them like Sadam did in the first Gulf War. They will hit Iran if we don't (and Bush will). He will not leave office and leave that problem to the next President regardless of whether it is Barry (who will do nothing) or McCain (who will end up hated like Bush). Look for the rhetoric to heat up and wait for the bunker busters to start falling in the next six months. Let's just hope Carter is in Tehran "talking" to Osama when it happens. That is all.

An endless argument
Rich D. Location: PA
10:02 AM EST

If you read the one with the spelling corrected only, then you read and trust the Apocrophya.
----

No
That is what you believe, I believe.
It is not what I believe.
Here is the way this works.
You ask me what I believe, you do not tell me what I believe.
Ok?
========


Rich D. writes:

The original goal was to translate Scripture into common language and you seem to be happy with one that is no longer meeting that goal.
-----
ts:
The goal was to translate it word for word and not lose the meaning of the text of the Original.
The 70 scholars of language accomplished that and now we have the KJV.
You can try and denounce that translation all you like, but you will only convince yourself, not me.

=========

Rich writes:

Fine, as long as you realize that it is personal preference and find a way to overcome its errors.
=====
ts:
Fine
As long as you realize you are not who I follow and believe in, and already found the Lord of the Book in believing the KJV, regardless what your opinion is about the book.
I find more errors in what you say,and all other translations than I will ever find in the KJV.
And like I said to begin with.
You believe whatever you choose to believe, so will I.
And I do not accept you as the author of my faith, not any scholar and translation you prefer.
Have at it

Talent Scout
Hmmm. You seem to be going off track here. Why all of the non sequiturs?

"The goal was to translate it word for word and not lose the meaning of the text of the Original. The 70 scholars of language accomplished that and now we have the KJV."

Now we have MANY KJVs, some produced after the 70 were all gone, or do you think that you are looking at the original?

"You can try and denounce that translation all you like..."

Silly. I'm just saying that they keep tweaking the KJV, and even so, there are still errors. Denounce is too strong of a word.

If your 70 scholars incuded the Apocrypha, why do you reject it? Never mind - I reall don't care.

"As long as you realize you are not who I follow..."

More silliness. Are you trying to make this personal?

The only debate is personal
In choosing what translation we decide on a personal level we prefer.
Just as I tried very hard to tell you with my first post to you.
========

Rich D. writes:- 11:17 AM EST
Subject: Talent Scout
Hmmm. You seem to be going off track here. Why all of the non sequiturs?
----
ts:
Why the dumb questions?
I am on topic
=========
I said:
"The goal was to translate it word for word and not lose the meaning of the text of the Original. The 70 scholars of language accomplished that and now we have the KJV."

Rich D. writes:
Now we have MANY KJVs, some produced after the 70 were all gone, or do you think that you are looking at the original?
=======
ts:
What does that have to do with the Original?
NOTHING.
I plainly said I accept the Original.
Why now you ask about other translations when I already made it clear?
=======
I said:
"You can try and denounce that translation all you like..."

Rich D. writes:
Silly. I'm just saying that they keep tweaking the KJV, and even so, there are still errors. Denounce is too strong of a word.
======
ts:
And I also REJECT all of them and prefer the ORIGINAL.
Like I already told you several times.

=======
Rich D. writes:
If your 70 scholars incuded the Apocrypha, why do you reject it? Never mind - I reall don't care.
=======
ts:
I will mind, and point out to you, to stop making assumptions that you do not have a clue about, cause you do not ask me anything about what I believe as you launch into telling me what I believe.
I seen your Catholic arguments before now too.

http://members.aol.com/kjvisbest/apocrypha.htm
-----------




"As long as you realize you are not who I follow..."

Tich D writes:
More silliness. Are you trying to make this personal?
======

Glad you finally woke up and realize this is a personal matter.
So quit being silly

Talent Scout
"And I also REJECT all of them and prefer the ORIGINAL. Like I already told you several times."

"I explained I use the updated spelling version, and not the 1611..."

One of your statements is false, or both are, but both can't be true.

Strain at a gnat, swallow a camel
Talent Scout
"And I also REJECT all of them and prefer the ORIGINAL. Like I already told you several times."

"I explained I use the updated spelling version, and not the 1611..."



Rich D. 12:48 PM EST
Subject:
One of your statements is false, or both are, but both can't be true.
---------

ts:
Spelling has nothing to do with the word, or the werd.

Spelling is a separate subject, capiche?

Khazar's had Jewish military
The claim that the IDF is the first Jewish army since Roman times may not be true as the Khazars of Central Asia had a kingdom with and Army that may have had Jewish Brigades.

Bible translations - 1
For those with an open mind and desire to know the most accurate text of the Scripture, I would recommend following these links.

http://www.bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm#a

The KJV and NKJV come from the arrogantly-named Textus Receptus (TR). "The TR primarily resulted from the work of a Dutch Roman Catholic priest and Greek scholar by the name of Desiderius Erasmus, who published his first Greek New Testament text in 1516. The first edition of Erasmus' text was hastily and haphazardly prepared over the extremely short period of only five months. (ibid., page 106) That edition was based mostly upon two inferior twelfth century Greek manuscripts, which were the only manuscripts available to Erasmus "on the spur of the moment" (ibid., page 99)."

http://www.webtruth.org/articles/bible-version-issues-22/is -the-king-james-version-perfect-30.html

http://www.kjvonly.org/rick/norris_spelling.htm

http://www.davnet.org/kevin/articles/preserve_word.html

And others.

For one thing, no translation is nor could be "literal", as there is not always a word-for-word equivalent in the target language, and words seldom have only one meaning.

For another, capitalization and punctuation were never in the originals (let alone in textual headings and verse numbers). Whenever you see "He" or "Him" capitalized in reference to God or Jesus (or those red letters), that is an interpretation, not a translation.

Italicized words are inserted words - they are interpretations, not translation.

(cont.)

Bible translations - 2
The original KJV had many marginal notes giving alternate readings or noting that certain verses were not in all manuscripts or that they omitted verses in some manuscripts. However, the KJV-only group goes apoplectic if you suggest that one of the original KJV alternates is a better reading! Why are those now omitted?

Be wary of translations that seek political correctness and change the gender of nouns.

Be wary of blindly accepting footnotes and marginal commentary. These are interpretations.

Be wary of those who say that one translation is perfect and that we don't need the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek any more.

Be wary of those who proclaim “Forget the Manuscripts and the Original Languages!
You do not need them, and neither does anyone else!” (From http://www.biblebelievers.com/Branson_KJV1.html)

Again, do not rely on any single translation. Peace.

s.d.g.

Talent Scout/Rich
Your debate has been interesting. I love the KJV, none can match its poetry. And it's my bible of choice. One thing that's missing from many if not all of the other translations is
"the only begotten Son of God". It's the one
we turn to although we have other translations, it's our major Bible.
Talent Scout, Is the book you refer to called
God's Secretaries? I have a copy and haven't had time to really get in to it. I used to read voraciously however it seems the demands on a grandmother are more than I anticipated.

arab acceptance of israel
How does any so called expert with one live brain cell in his head expect any arab to accept the existence of Israel when those goof balls are, after fifteen hundred years, still killing each other over the question of who killed Ali? yvt Shmendrik Nashashibi

Zedsmom (#73 at 4:40pm)
The play in question was "Hamlet", and he did mean nunnery, though not necessarily for the purpose of taking the vows: nunneries also served as refuges for what in later times would be called "wayward girls".

Didn't
Golda Meier say something about when the palestinians begin to love their children more than war there will be peace? I'm writing from a vague memory so I'm sure someone has the correct quote.
I doubt Israel will ever be destroyed again, at least not from reading my Bible. Christians are called to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.


Maybe we're all a bit Jew-ish
America, rather, the United States, seems to me to be the Jew among the nations. It is resourceful, adaptable, maligned, envied, feared, imposed upon. It is warm-hearted, over-friendly; quick-witted, lavish, colorful; given to extravagant speech and gestures; its people are travelers and wanderers by nature, moving, shifting, restless; swarming in Fords, in ocean liners; craving entertainment; volatile. The chuckle among the nations of the world.

Edna Ferber (author)

Tea Party
Tea Party
Location: WI

Reply # 123
Date: May 17, 2008 - 7:22 PM EST Subject: Talent Scout/Rich

"Your debate has been interesting."

Thanks. I hope that I've contributed valuable information for all Christians.

"I love the KJV, none can match its poetry. And it's my bible of choice."

Indeed, there are certain turns or phrases in it that speak of when people cared how they spoke.

Poor guy
Nobody even dignified his rant with a reply or flagged him. Let it stand for what it is.

how the edomites(israelis) have peace
GIVE THE ISHMAELITES(PALESTINEANS)BACK THEIR LAND THEY STOLE IN 1946

the lost tribes are here
WE THE ANGLO-SAXON PEOPLE ARE THE LOST TRIBES OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL LOOK AT GENESIS 3 GENESIS 5 THE PROMISES YHVH MADE TO ABRAHAM EZEK 35-38
STRONGS CONCORDANCE HEBREW DICTIONARY DEFINITION 119 ADAM YESHUA CAME FROM EVE FOLLOW THE MIGRATION OF BOTH THE 10 SOUTHERN TRIBES(HOUSE OF ISRAEL) AS WELL AS THE TWO NORTHERN TRIBES(HOUSE OF JUDAH)YESHUA WAS A JUDAHITE THE WORD JEW WAS A MISTRANSLITERATION FROM THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS

THE LOST TRIBES DO EXIST
STRONGS CONCORDANCE HEBREW DICTIONARY DEFINITION #119 ADAM-RED,ROSY,RUDDY,BLUSH IN THE FACE CAUCASSIAN- WE GOT THE NAME WHEN WE TRAVERSED OVER THE CAUCUS MOUNTAINS.LOOK AT GENESIS 5:1 GENESIS 3, LOOK AT YHVH'S PROMISES TO ABRAHAM.RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF THE TRAVELS OF THE 10 TRIBES OF ISRAEL AS WELL AS THE 2 TRIBES OF JUDAH. WE ARE THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL YESHUA WAS SENT UNTO. READ EZEKIEL 34-38

JEWISH RABBIS AGAINST ZIONISM AND NEOCON


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuSlsiW9hT8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMnoXfmCHo

Lost Tribes
There is a disease that is hereditary that the Jews and their decendents alone has. Hemophylia. The only people in the world who have this disease are the Jews - and all the Arabs in the immediate area of Israel today.

That means that all Palestinians are decendents of the lost tribes of Israel. So they are also Jews.

It is too bad they don't admit this. They would shoot themselves and save the world the problem.

What's in a name
45 Caliber: "There is a disease that is hereditary that the Jews and their decendents alone has. Hemophylia. The only people in the world who have this disease are the Jews - and all the Arabs in the immediate area of Israel today. That means that all Palestinians are decendents of the lost tribes of Israel. So they are also Jews."

What it means is they are all Semites. That's why applying the phrase "anti-Semitic" to an Arab Muslim is retarded. We all know the Jews think the world revolves around them (calling yourself "God's Chosen People? Try some humility), but they are not the only Semites.
Besides, calling someone a "Jew hater" sounds way more offensive than "anti-Semite," which sounds so like a PC euphemism.

Obama/Hillary
Hillary is showing Obama that he cannot win the
presidency unless she is on the ticket. Unfortunately Hillary is right.

But I still believe there is a better than 50/50
chance the Super Delegates will do their thing (Super delegates are to use their wisdom to see the best qualifed --most winable candidate is offerd up) and select Hillary as the Presidential candidate to go against MCain.

Hank


lost tribes
To claim that jews represent the lost tribes is perhaps the most blatent and massive distortion of the bible there is. This lie has been pushed for years. Why is this lie so important to push? Simple, because it gives illusion that "jews are Gods ONLY chosen." This is why america is at war. This is why america supports jews in nearly everything they want.
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