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Friday, April 18, 2008
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Nonproliferation's Time Has Passed
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- The era of nonproliferation is over. During the first half-century of the nuclear age, safety lay in restricting the weaponry to major powers and keeping it out of the hands of rogue states. This strategy was inevitably going to break down. The inevitable has arrived.

The six-party talks on North Korea have failed miserably. They did not prevent Pyongyang from testing a nuclear weapon and entering the club. North Korea has broken yet again its agreement to reveal all its nuclear facilities.

The other test case was Iran. The EU-3 negotiations (Britain, France and Germany) went nowhere. Each U.N. Security Council resolution enacting what passed for sanctions was more useless than the last. Uranium enrichment continues.

When Iran's latest announcement that it was tripling its number of centrifuges to 9,000 elicited no discernible response from the Bush administration, the game was over. Everyone says Iran must be prevented from going nuclear. No one will bell the cat.

The "international community" is prepared to do nothing of consequence to halt nuclear proliferation. Which is why we must face reality and begin thinking how we live with the unthinkable.

There are four ways to deal with rogue states going nuclear: pre-emption, deterrence, missile defense and regime change.

Pre-emption works but, as a remedy, it is spent. Iraq was defanged by the 1981 Israeli airstrike, by the 1991 Gulf War (which uncovered Saddam's clandestine nuclear programs) and finally by the 2003 invasion, which ended the Saddam dynasty.

A collateral effect of the Iraq War was Libya's nuclear disarmament. Seeing Saddam's fate, Moammar Gaddafi declared and dismantled his nuclear program. And if November's National Intelligence Estimate is to be believed, the Iraq invasion even induced Iran to temporarily suspend weaponization and enrichment.

But the cost of pre-emption is simply too high. No one is going to renew the Korean War with an attack on Pyongyang. And the prospects of an attack on Iran's facilities are now vanishingly small. What to do?

Deterrence. It worked in the two-player Cold War. Will it work against multiple rogues? It seems quite suitable for North Korea, whose regime, far from being suicidal, is obsessed with survival.

Iran is a different proposition. With its current millenarian leadership, deterrence is indeed a feeble gamble, as I wrote in 2006 in making the case for considering pre-emption. But if pre-emption is off the table, deterrence is all you've got. Our task is to make deterrence in this context less feeble.

Two ways: Begin by making the retaliatory threat in response to Iranian nuclear aggression so unmistakable and so overwhelming that the non-millenarians in leadership would stay the hand or even remove those taking their country to the point of extinction.

But there is an adjunct to deterrence: missile defense. Against a huge Soviet arsenal, this was useless. Against small powers with small arsenals, i.e., North Korea and Iran, it becomes extremely effective in conjunction with deterrence.

For the sake of argument, imagine a two-layered anti-missile system in which each layer is imperfect, with, say, a 90 percent shoot-down accuracy. That means one in 100 missiles gets through both layers. That infinitely strengthens deterrence by radically degrading the possibility of a successful first strike. Even Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, sitting on an arsenal of, say, 20 nukes, might recoil from these odds -- given the 100 percent chance a retaliatory counterattack of hundreds of Israeli (and/or American) nukes would make Iran a memory.

Of course, one can get around missile defense by using terrorists. But anything short of a hermetically secret, perfectly executed, multiple-site attack would cause terrible, but not existential, destruction. The retaliatory destruction, on the other hand, ,i>would be existential.

We are, of course, dealing here with probabilities. Total safety comes only from regime change. During the Cold War, we worried about Soviet nukes, but never French or British nukes. Weapons don't kill people; people kill people. Regime change will surely come to both North Korea and Iran. That is the ultimate salvation.

But between now and then lies danger. How to safely navigate the interval? Deterrence plus missile defense renders a first strike so unlikely to succeed and yet so certain to bring on self-destruction that it might -- just might -- get us through from the day the rogues go nuclear to the day they are deposed.

We have entered the post-nonproliferation age. It's time to take our heads out of the sand and deal with it.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Here are two facts
1. Iran has signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

2. Israel has not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Here are two more facts:

1. Iran has no nuclear weapons.

2. Israel is estimated to have at least 100 nuclear weapons.

And now let the morons call me anti-semitic for pointing out those facts. C'mon. Let's have it.

If the shoe fits
Baa Baa, you've got to be kidding. North Korea signed the treaty also. To rogue states like Iran a treaty is a smokescreen to maintain the appearance of legitimacy. It means nothing.

Israel has responsibly held nukes for many years as a deterrent. Iran's mad-man leader has made frequent threats (promises?) to wipe Israel from the earth.

Only someone with zero common sense would insinuate that Israel is the irresponsible party in comparison with the terrorist sponsoring state of Iran.

Small Problem w/ Political Will
"Begin by making the retaliatory threat in response to Iranian nuclear aggression so unmistakable and so overwhelming that the non-millenarians in leadership would stay the hand or even remove those taking their country to the point of extinction."

Ok --

You know and I know that we COMPLETELY lack the political will to pull off anything even CLOSE to something like this.

It won't matter which of the three top contenders make it in November. If one of the Dem's win, they'll just send Jimmy Carter over to sing "Kum-bay-ya", and you know how effective *that* is gonna be. If McCain wins, he might talk tough, but he'll probably *do* very little.

Me, I'd like to see 'em take the gloves off. Enough with this "no shooting mosques" and crap. I'll bet one handgrenade would set a few of them off like the 4th of July from all the weapons stashed in there. And if some Iranian motorboats start messing around with one of our destroyers, we show them *why* it's called a "destroyer."

Are the Dem's going to set such a tone? Definitely not. McCain? Probably not, but I could be wrong.

Bam or Boom
Charles, there you go again. The axes-of-evil want world chaos, And, since the 9-11-2001 scenario didn't work. They attempt chaos caused by the free-world. It's all Islamic mumbo jumbo. Seems like they expect a Mahdi to appear from chaos. I suggest selling them 9 million centrifuges. At least we can make money from the blowhards. The probabilities of Iran running a nuclear machine is nill. Trust me, like Bam they'll burry themselves in technology.

The cat
has been out of the bag since the disintegration of the USSR. The fragmented states, including Russia, have been selling any arms to anyone with bucks. Pakistan has nukes and enough muslims to get theirhands on one if they wanted. China has nukes and no compunctions. Only the difficulties of delivery and fear of reprisal have prevented use of nukes against Israel, and probably the Great Satan (that's us) as well. A nuclear Iran won't change much.

Vito
Your parsing of the "wipe Israel off the map," while it may be specifically correct, also evidences a willful ignorance. Ahmadinejad frequently delivers speeches in which he vows to bring death to Israel, to destroy Israel.

As for this comment:
"Now just think, a country (Iran) that doesn't have any nuclear weapons is threatening a country (Israel) that does have nuclear weapons.
Hey, Krauthammer, can you explain that one?"
Well, Israel has the weapons for deterrence (read the article), whereas Iranian leaders are striving to develop them in part to hasten Armageddon.

I guess I'll never understand the psychology that leads one to become apologist for a brutal, crazed tyrant.

Dunces Dismiss Depth...
Dr. Krauthammer's perspicacity ... well, let me put it bluntly. Dunces dismiss his depth.

Retaliation is no option
... in a world where dozens of countries have nukes. Any country could sneak a few bombs into the US and destroy several cities.

No one will know for sure where they came from, Charles!

In response, we are going to destroy Iran? Even if it was the drunk North Korean nut putting on a late night World Fairworks Show for his concubines? Or - why not -some Middle East country insuring its survival by destroying a few American cities and thus provoking our destruction of a dangerous Iran?

Even if we had strong suspicions about the origin of the bomb(s), all our leaders will do is conduct many, many congressional investiga-tions which will take years as usual.

Meanwhile the president will be busy going around begging for loans to rebuild, which will be denied. And that signals the end of pax americana.

The US splinters into Balcanic republics along ethnic and political lines, with assorted thugs and tyrants springing up everywhere, fighting for regional control and pushing the world into chaos.




Krauthammer actually gets
To the real problem near the end.

Namely, that once Iran or another regional enemy acquires nuclear material, it's only a matter of time before they supply same to a like-minded terrorist group.

Never mind a "finished", MILSPEC, nuclear fission bomb. Just picture what, say, Islamic Jihad could do to a major Western city with a conventional truck bomb "enhanced" with a few kilograms of radioactive dust. In fact, if you saw the 2004 HBO telefilm, "Dirty War", you don't have to imagine it- you already have the picture.

Imagine what the 1993 World Trade Center bombing would have been like with a radioactively-contaminated blast site.

Now, imagine a chartered (or stolen) cargo plane crashing into a major landmark-with a hundred kilos of radioactive dust on board with a burster charge.

No, I'm not giving anything away. The jihadis have already thought of this, and are just waiting for the chance to do it.

And Iran, etc., are looking at it from a "plausible deniablity" standpoint.

If terrorists do it, who do we "retaliate" against?

Or rather, who would our "elite" LET us retaliate against?

eon

Savage99
"A nuclear Iran won't change much."

The other countries you mention are pragmatic. They sell nuclear weapons because they want money. They want money to increase their power, economic stance and to make their own lives better. China won't initiate a nuclear war because they are having too much fun becoming the commercial capital of the world and because they need the west to buy all the stuff they are making.

Iran, on the other hand, is run by a leader who does not care about life on this planet. He would just as soon blow us all to hell because he thinks that he will go straight to paradise.

A nuclear armed Iran could indeed change things a lot.

NPT a failure from get-go
Who was the source of nuclear materiel for:
(1) Pakistan
(2) North Korea

Answer for both: Mainland (Red) China, which SIGNED the 1968 NPT!

baawa of course proved my facetious ("below average a55hat with arrogance") in his 00:38 post by ignoring the fact that Iran's centrifuges were originally delivered (or copied from) desings of KRL, a company owned/formed by ultra-ultra-reprobate mohajir A.Q. Khan--with full knowledge of Pakistan's establishment!

Diplomacy is less than useless
Diplomacy didn't work with Hitler, Mousolini, or Tojo and won't work with Iran or North Korea. These people understand the use of force therefore the threat of force must be made absolute. When this question was brought up in the dem debates HRC gave what I thought was the best answer retaliation. Obama blathered on about first responders. Hey Barrak did it ever occur to you the first responders would be killed in the strike? Either Obama is clueless or is telling his supporters what they want to hear. As of treaties Iran has no more use for treaties than Hitler did. When someone says he wants to kill you it is time to listen up.

Destabilize Iran and North Korea
If we are not working covertly to destabilize these regimes - then we are missing the best bet for resolving these issues. And I believe that covertly - we should make it known that their religious sites are first on our list as a deterrence - including Mecca.
Deterrence - absolutely! Inspect what you expect - and be ready to fulfill your promise. It cannot be an empty one!

fighter4right
"Only someone with zero common sense would insinuate that Israel is the irresponsible party in comparison with the terrorist sponsoring state of Iran"

Good, because no one did. What he DID point out is that, while we oppose "rogue" regimes getting nukes, we use the same arguments against them that we've been happy to ignore with Israel.

Dear Knight
Your an idiot. Signing a treaty is only valuable in the eyes of moronic liberals.

The real issue is will a country use nuclear weapons against a nation that has not attacked them? Like the WWII Japanese or Germans.

Israel is a stable democracy and will not use nuclear weapons unless they are attacked. They will definately not give them to terrorists.

You can't say that about N. Korea or Iran.

Of course this is way too logical for an obvious Obama supporter like Knight. LOL

DETERRENCE will NOT deter Iran
The recommendations to employ deterence against Iran is seriously flawed. Ahmadinejad will not be deterred. He believes he has been endowed with the "holy" responsibility to bring about the coming of the Islamic messiah- the 12th Imam (calaphite). This of course is accomplished by destroying the great Satan (U.S.) and the Little Satan (Israel). He has stated, “Love of one’s country is a form of paganism” because it detracts from love of Allah. He further proclaimed he did not care if his country “burned” if it furthered the world’s movement toward Islam. He should be taken at face value. If he obtains nukes, he will use them against Israel. He's crazy and willing to martyr himself and his country. Iran must not be allowed to obtain nuclear weapons. Whereas the U.S. has abdicated its responsibilities to a corrupt and ineffective U.N., I predict Israel will soon attack their facilities

Options.

While Nero fiddled... Rome burned.

There were never really any good options on this one. And now... there are only bad and worse ones.

But for the unthinkable disaster of terrorists with nukes, America and the world needs clear-thinking leadership and real back bone.

And that would definately not be Miss Hillary or the Obama.

God help us all.


A fissionable materials producing Iran ...
.....changes many dynamics in the terrorist world specifically and the rest of the world generally.

Most of you posting here (and I presume CK, too) forget that nuclear materials (including bombs) have a shelf life. Approximately seven years before they greatly diminish in their effectiveness.

When Iran becomes capable of producing fissionable materials from their now vastly increasing centrifuge capacities, they won't have to build any "bombs", per se, they will merely have to refurbish existing weapons -- a vastly easier job (and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that that was Pakistan's route to nuclear weapons (totally surprising the western world)).

TBC ~:>{(

The easy fix
In the long run we would make better progress by changing the way Muslims view their religion. If we could infect their mullahs and leaders with a more liberal view of the world and religion they would eventually turn into another France, but with an economy. We could start by having Sean Penn and Bruce Springsteen convert to Islam, then just sit back and wait a generation. If it didn't work out theres always
Bomb Bomb Bomb
Bomb bomb Iran

Deja Vu
It would seem like we are back in the era of the multipolar Great Game that existed prior to WWI. The primary difference is the presence of nuclear weapons in the mix. This calls for a skillful mix of diplomatic, economic, and military actions to keep the various countries/alliances in a non-infammatory mix. Given the mostly ham-handed international efforts of the US since at least the 70s, I don't expect much in the future.

I suspect a nuclear strike by somebody, somewhere is a near-certain event. We as a country have to make such a strike on us either too difficult or too expensive for the various nuclear powers to even think of it. We also need to keep in mind that, while the apocolyptic rhetoric from Iran and others may be over the top, they may not be willing to destroy their country by launching a nuclear attack. Remember, the Soviets promised to destroy us but both sides blinked during the Cuban Missile Crisis which probably was the nearest we came to a nuclear exchange.

As for the Islamic nihilists, all we can do is to keep trying to keep them away from nukes and keep a close eye on nation-states that might be tempted to assist them.

Unfortunately, all of the above requires a functional US government. At present it is dysfunctional from the politicians down to the lowest "civil servent".

China
China now holds the cards and we do not hold sway with China. The hundreds of billions of US dollars China spends on oil from Iran provides Iran the ability to play with nukes. China also holds considerable, if not ultimate control over N. Korea. I am sure they like having the US busy dealing with these petty dictators while they blithely get rich off exports to us and interest on our loans so they can pass us by economically and militarily. Our eye is totally off the ball.

Hal...
Are you that stupid or ill-informed?

It was not negotiations that kept the Cold War from becoming a hot one, but the deterrance of mutual destruction. The USSR knew that if they attacked us, they would get the same back, doubled or trebled.

It wasn't diplomatic negotiations that got the Ruskies to back down over the missles in Cuba, but the threat of military force by President Kennedy.

Doc
You are not Ronald Reagan.

modernone
".... China also holds considerable, if not ultimate control over N. Korea."

You might also add and the US economy. They own us outright since they bought so much of our debt

" I am sure they like having the US busy dealing with these petty dictators while they blithely get rich off exports to us and interest on our loans so they can pass us by economically and militarily."

They are certainly doing a decent job of eclipsing us in Asia as they grow stronger and we try to maintain some kind of presence. Sounds like Japan all over again

Preemption is not spent
War is about politics, not combat. Combat is a tool to advance strategic political interests. We forget that nowadays.

War is total - by definition. Not only have we never won a “limited” "war," (or an undeclared one, or any since we renamed the “Department of War” to the “Department of Defense” - there is, after all, something in a name), we have failed miserably with the nonsense of “Hearts and Minds,” because, of course, that is not what war is about. When we have ignored “Hearts and Minds,” we have won – see Civil War, WW2.

Pre-emption is “spent” only as a “limited” concept. Since war is strategic (combat is tactical), fighting any war with fewer tools than available, losing any of our side when unnecessary to achieve the political goal of changed behavior, defining the enemy civilians (who, after all empower any government’s behavior – why China reacted so harshly to Tiananmen Square) as more valuable than our own troops is immature and unserious.

War is awful. It must be seen that way. The only way for everyone to avoid it is to ensure its awfulness.

Nuclear preemption fits all of these concepts – and it is decidedly not “spent.”

Pre-emption
My only real disagreement with Mr. Krauthammer is his assertion that the cost of preemption is "too high." In comparison to what? The cost of allowing these outlaw, "axis of evil" regimes to acquire or keep nuclear weapons is vastly higher.

On the other hand, if he means the political cost, then he's probably right. This is solely and exclusively the fault of the left -- the Democrats in America, and the Euroids. Could we possibly find a better example of the idiocy of Democratic foreign policy, the uselessness of UN negotiations with outlaw regimes, and the hopelessness of any meaningful action while China and Russia have Security Council vetoes?

Here's an unpleasant prediction: if Sen. Obama becomes President, history will look like deja vu all over again, with Bill Clinton as Stanley Baldwin and Barack Obama as Neville Chamberlain.

Though that may be a little harsh on Messrs. Baldwin and Chamberlain.

Mister, we could use a man like Michael Bolton again!

Hal...
Don't forget that part of the solution - a major if not THE major part - ensuring Soviet missile removal was the US agreement - through diplomacy - to remove Jupiter C MRBMs from launch sites surrounding the USSR's southern flank.

So - yeah, there was the threat of force (key to serious diplmoacy) and there was (what the Left in the 1980s ignorantly and derisively called) "linkage."

At the end of the day JFK's response was 100% serious diplomacy.

Independent Thinker
"...Are you that stupid or ill-informed?"

neither, and you?

"It was not negotiations that kept the Cold War from becoming a hot one, but the deterrance of mutual destruction. The USSR knew that if they attacked us, they would get the same back, doubled or trebled."

Wrong! Negotiations were yet another tool not just MAD; this is EXACTLY where the extreme rightists fail so miserably. Military might is worthless without other strengths and tools. The Soviet Union by the way saw it exactly the opposite way: all that kept the US from attacking was their nukes.

"...It wasn't diplomatic negotiations that got the Ruskies to back down over the missles in Cuba, but the threat of military force by President Kennedy. "

And his willingness to pull out the missles in Turkey. Negotiations took place every step of the way. I even helped declassify some of the records.

Charles
writes, "But there is an adjunct to deterrence: missile defense. Against a huge Soviet arsenal, this was useless. Against small powers with small arsenals, i.e., North Korea and Iran, it becomes extremely effective in conjunction with deterrence."

Bingo. I came to this conclusion in the early 80's. God bless Ronald Reagan. For a while there, it did seem like a military deterence might be effective. I even hoped the removal of Saddam might make Iran come to the table. The democrats have preempted any hope of this. Iran knows we do not have the political will to do anything to prevent them achieving nuclear weapons. I question our political will to follow through on the concept of overwhelming retaliation and I am sure some Iranians do as well. That leaves missle defense.


Engage brain B4 puttting fingers in gear
"Don't forget that part of the solution - a major if not THE major part - ensuring Soviet missile removal was the US agreement - through diplomacy - to remove Jupiter C MRBMs from launch sites surrounding the USSR's southern flank."

OH no like so much of history the fundamentalist conservatives wrote that part out as never existing.

"...At the end of the day JFK's response was 100% serious diplomacy. "

See there you go spewing common sense again

Hitchhiker/Charles
"...I even hoped the removal of Saddam might make Iran come to the table."

Why would you ever think that? It forced them to accelerate their programs to defend against possible US invasion. We conquered Afghanistan with justification and then willfully invaded a country that like Iran the US labeled "evil". What other reaction would you expect??? Be serious please

"The democrats have preempted any hope of this. Iran knows we do not have the political will to do anything to prevent them achieving nuclear weapons."

No, the Bush Regime's failure to control Iraq proved we were unable to effectively invade Iran and aerial bombardment would be ineffective.

"I question our political will to follow through on the concept of overwhelming retaliation and I am sure some Iranians do as well. That leaves missle defense. "

why not call it by its correct name bunker mentality.

bawaa, what's your point?
To your first point, that Iran signed the treaty, so what?

Treaties can be broken. Hitler and Stalin signed a non-agression pact. The Japanese fascist government was negotiating with us, as bombs fell on Pearl Harbor. Those are 2 recent examples. To be fair to you cultural relativists, I'll add the example of treaties between the British Crown and the North American Indian tribes, which our colonial forefathers ignored. So, treaty signed-so what?

To your second point, that Israel has nuclear weapons, again, so what?

Israel's political leadership does not make statements that Israel seeks to wipe a state off the globe. Her prime minister doesn't talk about anticipating or ushering in the Millenium. (Does Judaism even have a millenial prophecy?) Iran, on the other hand, supports terrorist organizations like Hamas, sends arms to various factions in Iraq, and her president has stated that he wants to remove Israel from the planet. So, your point is?

Hillary delenda est.

Hal D
let me quote Charles K: "A collateral effect of the Iraq War was Libya's nuclear disarmament. Seeing Saddam's fate, Moammar Gaddafi declared and dismantled his nuclear program. And if November's National Intelligence Estimate is to be believed, the Iraq invasion even induced Iran to temporarily suspend weaponization and enrichment"

I suspect when the Iraq occupation got bogged down in a war against the terrorists and they saw the public reaction here by the democrats to Iran's efforts to bog us down there in battle against terrorists which they actively support, they were emboldened to renew their efforts.

Hal D writes, "why not call it by its correct name bunker mentality"

I suspect it will shortly become more then a mental state in Israel. A replay of the nuclear armageddon fears prevalent here in the 50's?


Hal Donahue
writes, "We conquered Afghanistan with justification and then willfully invaded a country that like Iran the US labeled "evil". What other reaction would you expect??? Be serious please"

What was the justification? A government, regime, dictator, or whatever that tacitly allowed a terrorist group to operate within its borders? There is ample evidence Saddam supported terrorism also. It is also simplistic to not differentiate from a person or group of persons controlling a country from the general population of a country. Not all Germans or Japanese supported was against us but, that did not matter. It should not matter today.

If 99% of North Koreans were polled and supported the elimination of nuclear weapons, would it matter? 99% of North Koreans have absolutely no say or influence in what the government of North Korea does. I know you thought the U.N. was doing a bang up job in isolating Saddam and preventing another invasion of a neighboring country but, I didn't.

Hitchhiker
"Charles K: "A collateral effect of the Iraq War was Libya's nuclear disarmament. Seeing Saddam's fate, Moammar Gaddafi declared and dismantled his nuclear program."

Actually that was a result of a long term British effort -- they had been negotiating for years and we gave them recognition etc. Spin away in that alternate right wing world

" And if November's National Intelligence Estimate is to be believed, the Iraq invasion even induced Iran to temporarily suspend weaponization and enrichment"

Why wouldn't you believe it? You don't trust the Bush Regime??? and why did they do that?

"I suspect when the Iraq occupation got bogged down in a war against the terrorists and they saw the public reaction here by the democrats to Iran's efforts to bog us down there in battle against terrorists which they actively support, they were emboldened to renew their efforts."

Wrong yet again geesh. They saw the Bush Regime allow the country to spin out of control and that the US was unwilling to provide the necessary military and civilian personelrequired to stabilize and rebuild the country. That created opportunity to embarrass and harrass us. Sure they did and we would have done the same. It was the massive failure of the Bush Regime that let it all spin out of control. They limited all their options.

"..I suspect it will shortly become more then a mental state in Israel. A replay of the nuclear armageddon fears prevalent here in the 50's? "

Israel is just another ally and one we pay huge billions of dollars in various aid to. We didn't help the Brits against the IRA whyever should we help Israel against the Palistians?

millenarians
Mr. Krauthammer correctly points out that we have to make sure that any strike by Iran means WWIII, but he incorrectly makes the millenarians in Iran sound like a bad thing. As soon as the millenarians try to nuke Israel God will swoop all of us true Christians up to heaven in the Rapture. That's right, we go straight to heaven without dying! Isn't that rad! There'll be a lot of poor chumps left behind to get "burned" (quite literally, actually). That's where the Christian Zionists part ways with the Jewish Zionists: We look like we're on the same team now, but when the nukes fly... well,... not so much. After the Rapture the Jews will suffer terribly (none of them get Raptured because they don't love Jesus). 1/3 will come to accept Jesus and will eventually be saved but the other 2/3 cling to their non-belief and burn forever in hell. But what do we true Christians care! That's probably why I sense a touch of negativism in Mr. Krauthammer's article. He doesn't view WWIII as a good thing because he's a Jew. Well, boo-hoo for him :(

For us true Christians, the main thing is to get WWIII started as soon as possible! Remember, the sooner the nukes fly the sooner we get Raptured and the less chance there is we'll ever have to suffer the pain of death. So I'm excited! This is going to be great!

Hitchhiker
"What was the justification? A government, regime, dictator, or whatever that tacitly allowed a terrorist group to operate within its borders?"

Yes for Afghanistan no for Iraq

" There is ample evidence Saddam supported terrorism also."

No there is not unless you call supporting the Palistinians in their efforts against Israel. That is not our fight and that should be reinforced even more by Israel's failed invasion of Lebanon

" ... I know you thought the U.N. was doing a bang up job in isolating Saddam and preventing another invasion of a neighboring country but, I didn't. "

What the invasion of Iraq proved was that Bill Clinton's strategy of isolating and disarming Iraq worked wonderfully.

Hal Donahue
writes, many many words that amount to the standard democrat leftist spin on anything and everything.

How many U.N. resolutions did Afghanistan break? How many times did they shoot at our planes patrolling the no fly zones in Afghanistan? When did the Taliban ever invade another country to secure its oil reserves? If there was no justification for invading Iraq, there was even less to support an invasion of Afghanistan but, you support that one. They just wanted to live free in their little Islamic republic and encourage and support death to America. Saddam just wanted to live free and rule Iraq and anything else he could get away with and encourage and support death to America.

Every argument you leftists advance for not removing Saddam can apply even more to Afghanistan. How were they a threat to us? Yet, you support one and not the other. Someone had to pay for 9/11? Is that all it is. We got our revenge so now it's back to normal pacifism again?

There are no guarantees
"Begin by making the retaliatory threat in response to Iranian nuclear aggression so unmistakable and so overwhelming"

But that can't be guaranteed past the Administration that makes the guarantee.

Treaties can be broken--by any future President.

In the 1930's, both Britain and France had solemnly guaranteed the sovereignty of Czechoslovakia and Poland. But when the chips were down, that guarantee proved an empty promise.

The U.S., under the Nixon Administration, had signed the ABM Treaty. But the Bush Administration withdrew from the treaty.

There's no way to make the retaliation AUTOMATIC, out of the hands of some future Administration.

GG-AZ
I think the Godwin's Rule "XX is the next Hitler" tact has been worn out after 60 years of bogeymen, although your comment "Mister, we could use a man like Michael Bolton again!" at least was amusing. As if there weren't already enough "no talent assclowns" in Washington.

Tyeler2
writes, "For us true Christians, the main thing is to get WWIII started as soon as possible!"

I suspect you are a satirist liberal trying to show what right wings nuts believe. Perhaps not. A true christian would not attempt to alter or speed up God's plan if indeed that is even God's plan. Kind of hard to get real specific from the general attributes of the second coming in the Bible.

I always find it amusing how some can be so adamant about exactly what is going to happen. If taking one particular segment of the Bible literally is correct, then you sir, are an olive. I didn't know fruit could type.

Krauthammer is telling us ...
...that the risk of one or two nuclear strikes by terrorist is acceptable because "the retaliatory destruction ... would be existential."

Oh yeah? If the terrorists nuke us, who do we render non-existent? Even if we hit the right targets, terrorists don't care; they go to paradise.

And then there is the problem of it happening while a Democrat is in the White House. Democrats have no use for national defense.

More living documents?
If a legal agreement between Americans, such as the U. S. Constitution, is considered a “living document” why would one consider a weapons treaty with a foreign tyrant inviolate?

Hitchhiker
You write: "A true christian would not attempt to alter or speed up God's plan..."

You are right sir, I should have written: "For us true Christians, the main thing is that WWIII will be getting started as soon as possible!"

But then you continue "...if indeed that is even God's plan."

Your ignorance of Bible prophecy and correct Christian doctrine (i.e. Pre-Tribulational Dispensational Post-Millennialism) makes me laugh! Ha! I guess you wont be one of the chosen 144000 that'll be raptured. Oh, well, that's just more for the rest of us. Have fun with with the 7 years of tribulation and death! ... but I suggest you get your head straight soon because God especially hates heretics and blasphemers... and I'm sure he's got plenty of special spots in hell for those folks where the everlasting agony is especially intense!

For all the rest of you, I suggest you start believing like I do soon. There's only 144000 spots on the Rapture express and there's 6.65 billion people in the world. That means your chances are only 0.002165%! Hurry before all the good seats are taken!


Reality
The author simply recognizes the reality, however we may dislike it. Non-proliferation began to fray years ago. Pakistan and India joined the club, and the addition of Pakistan clearly indicated the inevitability of other regimes systematically moving in the same direction. Pakistan has no history of a stable democracy - rather, it has cycled in an out of elections of powerful families and military dictatorships. We have tended to believe that we can forever control this - which includes our ability to pick the countries who have such weapons, while preventing others. When Pakistan joined Israel, it was inevitable that the Irani's would seek the same option. At this point, we could perhaps fry the Irani's, or the North Koreans, or whover shows up on the next list - but that is not likely to happen. So, unless we choose pre-emptive strikes, the only realistic option is the one the author discusses. Granted, we should never make it easy for anyone, but since Hiroshima, no President has been willing to use such weapons to prevent a second from developing them.
And then, we have the issue of lacking forces to widen the war in the middle east. Like it or not, we have no remaining strategic reserve. Hence, the dilemma.

Hitchhiker
"writes, many many words that amount to the standard democrat leftist spin on anything and everything. "

LOL

"How many U.N. resolutions did Afghanistan break? ....If there was no justification for invading Iraq, there was even less to support an invasion of Afghanistan but, you support that one."

Oh stop it and try to think with your brain. It is about competency and national defense. We were attacked by a criminal group of terrorists who were protected by the Taliban, the official government of Afghanistan. In self defense we had to attack Afghanistan and remove the Taliban from power and destroy Al Q. We only succeeded in removing the Taliban. I supported GW including his pledge to institute a rebuilding program that would dwarf the Marshall Plan. That was smart policy and planning. Invading Iraq where we literally controlled the air was plain stupid and incompetent and yes I said that at the time.

"...Saddam just wanted to live free and rule Iraq and anything else he could get away with and encourage and support death to America. "

yada, yada he was powerless and the only threat he posed was to Israel thru his support for palistinian fighters

"Every argument you leftists advance for not removing Saddam can apply even more to Afghanistan."

Simply not true at all. In case you forgot on 911 we were attacked but Al Q from Afghanistan.

" How were they a threat to us? Yet, you support one and not the other. Someone had to pay for 9/11? Is that all it is. We got our revenge so now it's back to normal pacifism again? "

It is about competency, plain and simple; emotion has no place at all in it. We were attacked on 911 and the organization who planned the attack and their leader is now stronger and better off than on 911. This demonstrats we are unable to defeat Al Q and Iraq only reconfirms US weakness even if we "won" tomorrow.

Gee and
what country has been right in the mix, supplying all these governments with nuclear weapons and WMD, to include Iraq? Why, that is us of course, as in the USA.

In the last few tears, we have given both Pakistan and India (mortal enemies) nuclear weapons. Oh ya, we have been selling arms to Iran for what 60 70 years? And just upgraded all their fighter jets this past year, with the components they needed? Who do you think gave Iran their nuclear program? (Do I even need to answer.) How about funding and arming both sides of the problem between Isreal and the Palistinians? How about, Panama? How about the Taliban? We funded and supplied arms to them also?
And how about that Osama Bin Laden, gee didn't we also fund and arm him also and friggin create his terrorist network and aint it funny how he keeps slippin out of our hands, not failing to mention all those islamo fascist schools we funded all across the middle east?

Ya, we did all the above and so much more. The problem is not them, its us.

Then the real kicker is our relationship with China? We made them a super power, both in military terms and financial terms?

And know what is the most hilarious thing about it all, for atleast the 50 years, the same names, that have been involved with it all, keep popping up.

The real story, is what we are doing and have been for a very long time.

Krauthammer is just another propaganda boot licker. I wonder if he is a member of the CFR?

sedonaman
"...And then there is the problem of it happening while a Democrat is in the White House. Democrats have no use for national defense. "

After all the damage to national security the Bush Regime did and is doing how can you even say that? How? The mask is off Republicans they could care less about national defense or the troops

As usual, the "Hammer" calls ...
... a spade a spade, and blows a big hole in the Bush-Rice "nuanced" diplomacy with Iran and North Korea.

Unfortunately, the "War on Terror" has degenerated into the same foreign policy mess as the Clinton-Albright poll driven policy toward terrorists.

Charles Krauthammer
Just checked, He is CFR.

Tyeler2 wrote
"Ha! I guess you wont be one of the chosen 144000 that'll be raptured"

Entirely wrong: the 1.44 lakhs are Jews who become Messianic AFTER the rapture--and are on earth to bring others to Christ. Read Revelation before you post such bakvas!

Nuke proliferation
All Krauthammer's approaches to the problem are necessary, but future political leadership may not have the will to deter through credible threats of detrustion of the enemy. Barack Obama, for example, has said that the U.S. should NEVER use nuclear weapons. There is also the fact that we would probably not know who initiated bombs set off by terrorists within the U.S. We need to make the missile defnse shield as effective as possible and emgage in regime change through covert action, where possible.

One small point
I bypassed all but the first few comments, between the anti-semitism and the the usual liberal anti-American blabber, why bother.

There is one point to make as an argument against Mr. Krauthammer's position of deterrence. You can't deter a nation with the threat of retaliation that puts death above life. The people of Iran may differ but they don't count in a radical Muslim society.

Deter Iran by threatening to nuke them?

Let’s deter Iran by threatening to nuke them if they nuke Israel?

Does anyone agree?

HOTAIR-I don’t get it. I get the part about Bush’s Iran policy having failed utterly and why we now need to shift to a deterrence posture, and I get the risk posed to Israel by an Iranian first strike given the proximity of the two. Even so:

How to create deterrence? The way John Kennedy did during the Cuban missile crisis. President Bush’s greatest contribution to nuclear peace would be to issue the following declaration, adopting Kennedy’s language while changing the names of the miscreants:

“It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear attack upon Israel by Iran, or originating in Iran, as an attack by Iran on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon Iran.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/let%e2%80%99s-dete r-iran-by-threatening-to-nuke-them-if-they-nuke-israel


No
Neoconservativism's time has passed. After years of insisting that we can change others' minds about Iraq policy, we now have the spectacle of a neoconservative insisting that we cannot change our own government's mind about Iran policy, and that we should "deal with it."

It should come as no surprise to Mr. Krauthammer that he was unable to persuade Bush to take an actual hard line against Iran. The Counterfeit Cowboy has always been nothing but a talker, a "compassionate" conservative who contradictorily wants to do-good and get tough, but not if it makes him appear mean-spirited, while fancying himself as some sort of resolute history maker.

I cannot get on board with Mr. Krauthammer's analysis. If the U.S. is so morally weak that it refuses to take a hard line against Iran and sees itself as unable to prevent a penny ante country from acquiring nuclear weapons, why would any of them, including the non-millenarians, believe that the U.S. has the resolve to retaliate? Why would any future enemy?

What is his evidence that regime change will come and solve this problem for us anyway? What is his evidence that Iran is rational enough to adhere to the wisdom of game theory and probabilities?

More importantly, why should civilized people brook any threat to their survival on any grounds?

Instead of degenerating into fatalism, Mr. Krauthammer would be better served agitating our administration to stop talking and do the right thing. Iran has been more than a thorn in our side for a number of reasons for a long time, and it is time we dealt with them. (We also need to put the screws to Russia for helping them). And don't forget to make the case to Laura Bush also.

Tyeler2
writes, "Your ignorance of Bible prophecy and correct Christian doctrine (i.e. Pre-Tribulational Dispensational Post-Millennialism) makes me laugh! Ha! I guess you wont be one of the chosen 144000 that'll be raptured."

Ah, Jehovah's Witness. Haven't seen one of you guys around here before. I have absolutely know idea what Pre-Tribulational Dispensational Post-Millennialism is and I really don't care.

How exactly do you add and drop names from the list. Last I heard there were more then 144,000 of youse. I hope you don't get bumped.

ex-Wyomingite
Good luck with that.

Hal Donahue
writes, "Oh stop it and try to think with your brain. It is about competency and national defense. We were attacked by a criminal group of terrorists who were protected by the Taliban, the official government of Afghanistan. In self defense we had to attack Afghanistan and remove the Taliban from power and destroy Al Q. "

We were defending ourselves from Afghanistan? Wow. What exactly was the nature of the threat? I had not heard of any covert WMD programs there before. Were we in danger of ICBM's or perhaps their navy or air force. If the goal is to destroy al Q, it seems to be working. They are flocking to Iraq or, rather were. They seem to be running into a recruitment problem in supplying reinforcements. No matter how you spin it Hal, the fight is still the same fight in Iraq. It cannot be okay to remove the Taliban and not okay to remove Saddam or any other tyrant with terrorist designs. You are either a surrender monkey all around or you choose to stand and fight for what you believe is right.

Your argument that it is right for Afghan and wrong for Iraq is clearly muddled moral relativism at its finest.

Knight of blahblah wrote:
1. Iran has signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

2. Israel has not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Here are two more facts:

1. Iran has no nuclear weapons.

2. Israel is estimated to have at least 100 nuclear weapons.

And now let the morons call me anti-semitic for pointing out those facts. C'mon. Let's have it.

Let's see, Israel's had nukes for decades but hasn't used or threatened anyone with them. Iran doesn't have nukes yet but threatens using them already. As for believing they are for peaceful purposes, only fruitcakes like you (and Jimmuh Carter) believe that. Are you just dumb?

For Hal,
Yes, all the terrorists reside in Afghanistan. We have no worries about any other country. Are you are Knight one and the same?

Basically 1 of 3 outcomes...

1 - Israel takes action like they did in 1981 and the US supports them...

2 - Internal actions cause a change in leadership inside Iran and the country stops pursuing nuclear weapons...

3 - No one does anything and Tel Aviv and Haifa are blown off the map (along with an American city?)...

Most people think that no leader will start a nuclear war because they know their country will be destroyed as a result. So most people don't believe Iran's president will actually do anything if he does acquire nuclear weapons.

I think the Iranian President believes it is his destiny to help usher in the Muslim version of Armageddon. He knows if he helps get nukes into Isreali cities, his country will be attacked by superior forces. He doesn't worry about that because, since it's Allah's will (in his opinion) to unleash Armageddon, Allah will protect his country from any mortal assault. With that kind of support, he does not fear retaliation - that same retaliation that most people believe prevents this possibility...

knight_of_baawa wrote:
1. Iran has signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

2. Israel has not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Here are two more facts:

1. Iran has no nuclear weapons.

2. Israel is estimated to have at least 100 nuclear weapons.

And now let the morons call me anti-semitic for pointing out those facts. C'mon. Let's have it.

By your own post:
Iran's nuclear weapons program violates a treaty THEY signed.
Israels' Nuclear weapons DO NOT violate a treaty they signed.
You can't PROVE Iran does not have nukes OR that Israel does.

Nuclear Arms and Obama
Unfortunately if what you say is true and it appears to be, if Barack Obama gets elected we are in some big time trouble.

Senator Obama has already said he wants to cancel the Missile Shield and that he would not use nuclear weapons under any circumstances. Plus in the long run he wants to eliminate ours and the Soviets stockpile. Someone should tell Obama that the Soviets are the big problem, it his Muslim friends who are dangerous. In this time of danger from either a big enemy like Russia or from a rogue enemy like Iran, America must have all options on the table. We must have a missile shield and an arsenal so large we could wipe out Iran or China 100 times over.

Obama is a disaster waiting to happen. If the terrorists don't get us China or Korea will. We must do whatever it takes to keep Obama from ever becoming president.

Hitchhiker aka "silly man"
"We were defending ourselves from Afghanistan? Wow. What exactly was the nature of the threat? "

Nope we were eliminating an Al Q support system.

"I had not heard of any covert WMD programs there before. Were we in danger of ICBM's or perhaps their navy or air force. If the goal is to destroy al Q, it seems to be working. They are flocking to Iraq or, rather were. They seem to be running into a recruitment problem in supplying reinforcements. "

Well according to our government they are not. The troops in Iraq are "gravy" as the focus on getting Pakistan nukes

"No matter how you spin it Hal, the fight is still the same fight in Iraq. It cannot be okay to remove the Taliban and not okay to remove Saddam or any other tyrant with terrorist designs."

Really???? and what about Kim? He has missles to hit the west coast. Is this why Bush the sissy attacked Iraq and not NK?

" You are either a surrender monkey all around or you choose to stand and fight for what you believe is right. "

Ahhh surrender monkey??? LMAO listen little sissy let the moderates and liberals rescue you as always. Just shut your self in the bunker and hide your fear does not help

"Your argument that it is right for Afghan and wrong for Iraq is clearly muddled moral relativism at its finest. "

You know I thought about may answer for a while but all I could come up with was will you sissies get in your bunkers and be quiet --- GEESH!

CT
I get soooo tired with you sissies. Please stop the nonsense. Al Q is composed of bad guys but they are nothing new at all. You hunt them down and deal with them. FYI we have done this for over 200 years nothing new here at all

"...Yes, all the terrorists reside in Afghanistan. We have no worries about any other country. Are you are Knight one and the same? "

no

doofus writes: "I get soooo tired with

you sissies."

Sissies? What are you, a 3rd grader???

Sounds more like YOU are the real "sissie."

You and your ilk are the ones who are too afraid to acknowledge, much less deal with al Qaeda.

It's as though you're hiding your head in the sand...

"FYI we have done this for over 200 years nothing new here at all...."

Really? Does 9-11 ring a bell? How about "Death to America" or "Wipe America off the face of the earth?"


You really are a cowardly doofus, and not very bright to boot!



Anne -- does that hook in your lip hurt
"...Sissies? What are you, a 3rd grader???"

Nope not at all as you well know. But all the timid folk here and all the " I would be a war hero if I were born then..." It gets tiring. Sissy is a perfect word choice

"...Really? Does 9-11 ring a bell? How about "Death to America" or "Wipe America off the face of the earth?"

You think any of this is new??? They hit us because the Bushies were distracted by bare boobs on a statue, give me a break. Do you have ANY idea how many folks wished "death to America"?


"You really are a cowardly doofus, and not very bright to boot! "

Ahh thanks Anne I was worried you did not care LMAO

Hey Hal,
Sissies? Anytime, anywhere sissyboy.

Deterrence didn't "work"
... in the Cold War anyway, at least not as Krauthammer implies. He keeps harking back to nuclear deterrence as if its efficacy is well established. But its reputation mostly breaks down when you look at situations and particulars.

The Cuban Missile Crisis (which Krauthammer invoked in his last column) was not a triumph of "deterrence," it was a case of the US agreeing to give up a scheduled NATO missile deployment in exchange for the USSR removing its ballistic missiles from Cuba. We did not face down the Soviets, we negotiated and made a concession.

But Krauthammer isn't really talking about deterrence of attacks on the US anyway. He's talking about EXTENDED deterrence: deterrence of attacks on third parties (e.g., Israel, in the case of Iran; or other ME nations, or Europe). Evidence that the US nuclear deterrent ever actually deterred such an attack is very thin. Evidence that the US nuclear deterrent did NOT deter the USSR from sponsoring coups and proxy invasions in Asian and African third party nations, on the other hand, is overwhelming.

Even in the 1973 war, US deterrence of Soviet intervention can't be attributed to our nuclear deterrent, but to our overall military posture, which included the regional dispatch of operational forces we were much more likely to actually use.

We can't be sure one-v.-one deterrence between the US and USSR ever really kept the Soviets from doing anything they seriously wanted to do; and we CAN be sure that it did NOT keep from doing things they did want to do, like suborn governments around the globe with Marxist coups, and obtain basing from which they could hold Western nations at risk. This is not a strategy we should be relying on to "contain" Iran.

Nuclear Biological Chemical WMD
On several occasions Hitler was asked to use his diabolical store of super weapons against the West and the Soviet onslaught. To the very last Hitler would wait and pace in his bunker with the dilemma to use his non conventional outlawed super weapons or not to use outlawed super non conventional weapons. An adviser would tell him it would not be wise to use the wonder weapons hidden for an emergency surprise retaliation. The story is it went something to this effect; "If you use the secret weapons; the allies would use their secret WMD arsenal back on the Reich. Also , a last minute alliance with the West against the Communist red tide would be canceled. Hitler waited to the very end for a miracle turn in the war for the Reich. Hitler had been a victim of being gassed in WWI and lost half his lung. He remembered the horror of blistering mustard gas. As we know the Nazis would go to any lengths to win in war.Hitler hesitated on using his store of illegal mass weapons of destruction that could have wiped out entire regiments encroached closing in on his bunker perimeter. Whoever pulls the nuclear trigger in the Middle East should be fully alert to the utter devastating blow back that would occur. Survivors would likely be burn patients sickened with radiation poisoning. My Father flew for the U.S. Navy during the atomic testing in the South Pacific. He could see the bones through his forearm as he shielded his eyes during flight. He is dead. i cared for a sailor at Balboa Naval Regional Medical Center that may have consumed irradiated water from the ship board desalinization plants. He was in the Bikini Islands test. Nodules first appeared under one arm. After amputation more nodules appeared. He had three limbs amputated. He died. I remember hours of standing in the surgery rooms with searing burning flesh running up my nostrils as we tried to save people. So; if someone wants a nuclear war; they better get in touch with reality. Respectfully born Paris Island.

CT: Good luck with that one....

GunnyG has made the SAME offer. Funny thing... doofus hasn't taken him up on it...

Strange, don't you think???



Hal Donahue
writes, "Ahhh surrender monkey??? LMAO listen little sissy let the moderates and liberals rescue you as always. Just shut your self in the bunker and hide your fear does not help"

Touche. This is your response? We need to hide in the bunkers and count on you to rescue us? I sure hope that bunker can last a lifetime.

Me:
"Your argument that it is right for Afghan and wrong for Iraq is clearly muddled moral relativism at its finest. "

You:
You know I thought about may answer for a while but all I could come up with was will you sissies get in your bunkers and be quiet --- GEESH!

That's what I thought. No response huh?

Anne
"Sissies? What are you, a 3rd grader???"

I am so tired with all the communist/socialist/amnesty/surrender name calling it is time to call so many of you folks what you are:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This sis·sy Audio Help (sis'e) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. sis·sies

1. A boy or man regarded as effeminate.
2. A person regarded as timid or cowardly.
3. Informal Sister.

definition number two clearly applies to so many of you folks living in fear and frightened of a group of criminal terrorists

"You and your ilk are the ones who are too afraid to acknowledge, much less deal with al Qaeda."

LMAO we didn't let him go and grow that was all your fault

It's as though you're hiding your head in the sand...

"Really? Does 9-11 ring a bell? How about "Death to America" or "Wipe America off the face of the earth?""

911 was a disaster but do like the real heroes (the people of NYC) did get up brush yourself off and go to work building bigger and better. They apparently are made of sterner stuff than you ilk here


CT
"Hey Hal,
Sissies? Anytime, anywhere sissyboy "

Oh I am at Walter Reed every other week happy to meet there. You gonna beat me up tough guy? #2 above applies

Hitchhiker
writes: Saturday, April, 19, 2008 12:58 AM
Hal Donahue
writes, "Ahhh surrender monkey??? LMAO listen little sissy let the moderates and liberals rescue you as always. Just shut your self in the bunker and hide your fear does not help"

Touche. This is your response? We need to hide in the bunkers and count on you to rescue us? I sure hope that bunker can last a lifetime."

My response is that is exactly what you ARE doing now.

"Me:
"Your argument that it is right for Afghan and wrong for Iraq is clearly muddled moral relativism at its finest. "

You:
You know I thought about may answer for a while but all I could come up with was will you sissies get in your bunkers and be quiet --- GEESH!

That's what I thought. No response huh? "

There is no suitable reply for such silliness. I love the way you guys are "clearly muddled moral relativism at its finest" in your stunning approval of torture (another sissy tactic - remember #2 above)but then you try to compare 911 to Iraq shooting at our planes occasionally as we flew over their country. Moral relativism??? LMAO

doofus writes: “Nope not at all as you

well know.”

Really?

I don’t KNOW anything of the kind!

The only thing that I DO KNOW is that you behave like a 3rd grader bully in the school yard. And I don’t know of any adult who goes around calling people “sissies.”

”You think any of this is new???”

Well, yes… 9-11 was “NEW” in that it was the first time al Qaeda “attacked” us here in the US. However, and this is a point that YOU have not yet comprehended… the radical Islamics have been doing this for centuries.

“They hit us because the Bushies were distracted by bare boobs on a statue, give me a break. Do you have ANY idea how many folks wished "death to America"? “

Doofus, you have made some pretty stupid, asinine, vacuous comments, but that is BY FAR, one of the most outrageously stupid, mentally deranged, demented comments yet.

“Do you have ANY idea how many folks wished "death to America"?”

Yes, as a matter of fact… al Qaeda and the liberals….. which, of course, includes YOU!

”Ahh thanks Anne I was worried you did not care LMAO”

Well doofus, start worrying again……………………..

Anne
"The only thing that I DO KNOW is that you behave like a 3rd grader bully in the school yard. And I don’t know of any adult who goes around calling people “sissies.”"

Oh but you folks here can call anyone anything? Get real you folks do meet the criteria for "sissy" I have never seen such a frightened and timid group.

”..Well, yes… 9-11 was “NEW” in that it was the first time al Qaeda “attacked” us here in the US. However, and this is a point that YOU have not yet comprehended… the radical Islamics have been doing this for centuries. "

Oh stop it "radical Islamics" my backside. Call them what they are or were pirates and te3rrorists ect...Al Q is just another batch of terrorists but you and the Bush Regime gladly let them go

“They hit us because the Bushies were distracted by bare boobs on a statue, give me a break. Do you have ANY idea how many folks wished "death to America"? “


Far more now than on 911 which is a major problem especially since our military is tied up right now and worn badly. Bare boobs? You forget Ashcroft and the Bush Regime downgraded counterterrorism as a priority and near 911 Ashcroft was personally overseeing the installation of $15,000 curtains to cover the bare bosum of the Justice statue - that is a fact. With priorities like that who has time to bother with terrorists





doofus: You really are nothing more than

a 3rd grader... and not a very smart one at that!

And typical of what Dr. Lyle Rossiter says in his book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness."

"Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded.... Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

THAT WOULD BE YOU, doofus!!!!

And, doofus, how about this deal...


We'll water board any terrorist whom we have reason to believe intends to do harm to us and our families, but if we find a terrorist whom we think might want to kill you and your family, we'll just let them go so they can do their thing?

Sound like a deal?


Good!



Sissies
Hal is a girl.

Anne
"Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded.... Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

THAT WOULD BE YOU, doofus!!!! "

LMAO yet another extremist. What you call a parental government most intelligent people call a cooperative government. Look the simple FACT is you had total control and blew it completely. Your brand of fundamentalist conservatism has proven to be as large a failure as communism

Anne
"We'll water board any terrorist whom we have reason to believe intends to do harm to us and our families, but if we find a terrorist whom we think might want to kill you and your family, we'll just let them go so they can do their thing?"

Talk about moral relativism LMAO and you claim to be a Christian no less LMAO. I don't have to worry about your deal since most of you folks cower in a corner afraid of life. But I will still protect you and your ilk as I have done for so much of my life. Two facts about torture: one it does not work and two it is almost always used by cowards.


Good!

kapahulu
"Hal is a girl. "

Actually no I am not but is that supposed to be an insult? Some of the finest people I know are women and strong ones.

Hal Donahue
Ya just have to keep bringing up torture. The funny thing is, your candidate supports it. LOL.

Your candidates husband embraced rendition when he was in the WH. It's okay as long as it is done in another country? GWB hasn't done anything not supported by Bill or Hill. Why make an issue out of it?

It is muddled moral relativism to take a few instances of waterboarding and call it a policy of torture. It is impossible to use military force without having a few instances of some pukes doing something they shouldn't. Abu Graib? There is a difference between the way we wage war and most other cultures in the world but, keep dissing America and our out of control torture policies if it makes you feel good.


Non-proliferation column reader posting
Hey baaaawaaa

Iran signed what? And what was that piece of paper Hitler signed for Neville Chamberlain? There's no fool like a blind liberal foot!!

USMC Lt. writes: "...they REALLY DO want

to kill him, JUST BECAUSE HE'S AN AMERICAN."

That's what I kinda thought.... Know why? 'CAUSE THEY'VE SAID SO... COUNTLESS TIMES!!!

It's obvious that doofus doesn't quite understand that it won't take an army... in fact, how may 9-11 hijackers were there???

And how many innocent people were killed on 9-11???

And how much damage was done???

And maybe doofus has been too busy to read that Ahmadinejad has pretty much thrown the Nonproliferation in our faces... How many more plants does he planned???


I too would like to watch doofus try to "talk" them about being reasonable... while they're shouting "Death to America..." and "Allahu Akbar."


Hitchhiker
"It is muddled moral relativism to take a few instances of waterboarding and call it a policy of torture."

Over 30 folks died undergoing stressed interrogations we are not just talking a few

" It is impossible to use military force without having a few instances of some pukes doing something they shouldn't."

The president personally approved inhanced interrogations and himself authorized waterboarding for at least three people

"Abu Graib? "

I didn't mention that did I they were just troops reflecting the Bush Regime's values supposedly "Christian values" no less.

"There is a difference between the way we wage war and most other cultures in the world but, keep dissing America and our out of control torture policies if it makes you feel good."

I makes me feel awful and is a blot on our nation and our military.


Hitchhiker: Don't worry about doofus!

His new words are "relativism" and "torture" so he tries to use them a lot...

And of course, his "girl" HELLary says it's okay, so he's kind of at his wit's end... well kind of. We're not sure that he has a wit, but if he did, he'd be at the end of it.

The other thing is, he's taken to behaving like a 3rd grade play ground bully, calling everyone "sissies" when in fact he's too afraid to face the terrorists head on.

No body takes doofus seriously... he just comes by to annoy everyone, so we play along...






USMC Lt.
"...OBVIOUSLY he hasn't seen these radical islamics up close and personal as I have, or he wouldn't be so easily dismissive of them."

LOL Egypt, Labanon and Pakistan count?

"Wait, he's a liberal so even if he did run into some of them he'd probably try to get them to sit dowon and talk about why they hate us so much."

I am a moderate the liberals say I am a conservative LOL. How can even implay that I am a pacifist.

"That would be really interesting to watch. Doofus trying to talk them into being reasonabel as they saw his head off. Even to the end he still wouldn't get it that they REALLY DO want to kill him, JUST BECAUSE HE'S AN AMERICAN. "

Yawn, do you think this is the first time anyone wanted to kill any American? Only far more want to now than did on 911. This is why I say "sissy". So what get on with life and try a little bit to buck up.

USMC Lt.: Again, the passed over doofus

is slipping and sliding around the facts.

Big fat deal, so he's been around Muslims in "Egypt, Labanon and Pakistan."

So have I. I work with many Muslims, but I'm guessing that that's NOT what you're talking about! Just guessin'!

doofus says, "I am a moderate the liberals say I am a conservative LOL." LOL is right. No one wants him.

"How can even implay that I am a pacifist." And I don't have the foggiest notion what THAT means.

And, another mindless response, "Yawn, do you think this is the first time anyone wanted to kill any American?" Is that pertinent to anything?

"Only far more want to now than did on 911."
Just another "made up" thing. He has no way of knowing that... Dumb as a bag of hammers!

"This is why I say "sissy". So what get on with life and try a little bit to buck up."

Sounds like a "death wish" to me. Obviously, doofus is NOT a very happy man!


I love Krauthammer's articles
More than anyone else here, he brings out the loony left and their self-contradictory theories. Just look at how they squeal about Iran, "you can't do anything!" and North Korea, "why don't you do something!"

I can't wait until the unhinged left try to justify their illogical opinions in the general election. No matter how bad the MSM wants President B. Hussein Obama and a veto-proof congress, it ain't gonna happen, sorry! The American public is not nearly as stupid or "bitter" as the Dems think. That's why they keep losing elections.

USMC Lt.
"THOSE Muslims aren't the radicals that want to kill ALL Americans, not just "some." I doubt he would have survived a meeting with the radicals, but let's let him think he would have."

Nice! I survived that day in lebanon but 200 plus marines and tens of French troops did not.

"They are vicious, merciless killers who would even strap bombs on their own kids if it would kill even just a few "infidels." "

Ahh gee we face a nasty enemy. Guess what any enemy can be nasty and I know we can be too thank heavens

"...And his calling people "sissy" only shows what a pathetic person he is. He can't even spell "LEbanon," for God's sakes. "

Pup come back when you grow up. I suspect you are a fraud but could care less either way you are sad and for the record a sissy - you are timid and frightened. Look at all you typed and tell me you are not. As for my spelling deal with it

Anne/USMC Lt.
"..And, another mindless response, "Yawn, do you think this is the first time anyone wanted to kill any American?" Is that pertinent to anything?"

Actually yes. it means we wasted all the time since 911 and actually created rather than defeated enemies

"Only far more want to now than did on 911."
Just another "made up" thing. He has no way of knowing that... Dumb as a bag of hammers!"

Really our own government said that?

"This is why I say "sissy". So what get on with life and try a little bit to buck up."

Sounds like a "death wish" to me. Obviously, doofus is NOT a very happy man! "

LMAO nope just had a wonderful evening getting ready for the hot tub but carry on by all means...oops no hot tube in the sissy bunker? Come on stop being frightened and work. Oooops did I screw up again? I know work has four letters and is not very compatible with conservatives...

On that note: good nite ;>)

Robert
"How are things Hal? "

Pretty miserable medically but life is still good thank.

"...HRC had a really good debate...I havent seen someone fold as badly as Obama since well Howard Dean."

He was beat up badly but hopefully will be stronger for it either way

"Do you have a PA predcition? "

Hil by 8% but the numbers are all "squishy" if Obama narrows that then start calling PA a blue not purple state. Really interesting primary here

Robert
"...The funny thing "Jeff" is that if you re
Jeff writes: Saturday, April, 19, 2008 8:04 PM ..."

The guy is embarrassing but hey fake or not useful LOL

"...in the mideast and wearing the Green you would be a fracken embarrasement to everyone...and they would ship you home in a heartbeat. "

From what I am hearing if the body is warm you stay no shipping home. Is this true?

"But the USMC is quite certian that there has not been a enlisted Marine commissioned without a four year degree since Hue City."

It is all part of the Limbawl program: college degrees???? no way... might make us an asset. You forget most of these folks are parasites


Well, the Village Idiots have spoken
And as usual they have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation.

Hey Chuckles and Doofus, when are either of you going to answer ANY of the questions you've been asked by Anne, or Doc, or Gunny or Tinsldr2, or anyone else for that matter?
They're all legitimate questions that you would have NO problem answering if you're really who/what you say you are.

Charlie, they are just Soros paid shills
Don't pay any attention to Doofus, Robert, Chuckles or any of these other obvious fakes. They are just left wing shills, paid by Moveon, Soros, Media Matters and others to disrupt the conversation that they can't win.

I take great solace in knowing that the left cannot put forth a cogent argument, but can only deride, complain and name-call. Fortunately, the American people see through it all, which is why they have won so few elections since Reagan.

Even their High Priest, Slick Willy Clinton, never won a majority vote. Without the propagandizing MSM, Dems would be drawing less than 30%.

Krauthammer another Mr. Hittler?
As a legal, yes, and I reapeat as a legal immigrant who had/did comply with the last dot of the than respected laws of immigration; seemingly still enforced at that time, by the than Commander in Chief; unlike now, with God knows all the illegals settled in, while the present Commander in Chief feels selfrighteousness to shoot the world to pieces!

Now comes this Krauthamer guy recomending more of that same garbage that motivated Mr. Hitler as I can determine? Yes, as a legal immigrant and a staunch conservative Republican, and ever since entering America I have determined to become fully informed as to the hopes and dreams, that actually gave birth to this nation out of a brutal and abusive Empire, that of the Brithish Empire.

So, I ask this Krauthamer guy, what in the hell does it mean to him when he quotes the Founding Fathers at times, when most of what he strongly suggest is other than what they clearly stated should be America's way of life forever more, for peace and justice for all peoples on earth?

First of all this words: "Overgrown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican liberty". By George Washington and yes, even in a way repeated by none other than Dwight D. Eisenhower in his fareweel address as well.

Now these words from James Madison: "Of all enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. Waris the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instrument for bringing the many under the domination of the few".

Yes, according to the top man of OBM, and if my information is correct, America today, is in complete bankrupt condition within itself, at the tune of up to 60 trillion dollars! Yes, and truly sending the bill to only God knows what next generation!

Look like I was proven correct
Any pointing out of uncomfortable facts about Israel means that the person is an anti-semite. I don't know how that works, but somehow that's how it works.

I guess because I'm intelligent and don't use fallacies must be the reason that I don't get it.

Oh RA
Prove that I'm an Obama supporter. I'll wait while you scream and yell and cry that I asked you to do something that you won't be able to do, since I don't support Obama. Of course, you think that anyone who disagrees with you is a Clinton or Obama supporter. That just shows how stupid you are.

Hitchhiker,
Please don't confuse me with one of those heretical cultists (e.g. Jehova's Witnesses). They have no chance at salvation until they reject their satanic beliefs. Pre-Tribulational Dispensational Post-Millennialism is just the long form of true, normal, decent Christian. Tom Delay, Hal Lindsey, John Hagge, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins... all are true Christians.

The way you get on the 144000 list is to believe the correct doctrine. Reject Satan and accept the truth! Quick, time is running out!

Missile defense
?? For a suitcase bomb?

Iran will Nuke US from FREIGHTERS at sea
Once Iran has "enough" nukes (20-24?), to bring on the 12th Iman, it will hit us with most of them (and use most of the rest for Israel) using Scuds launched from freighters 100-200 miles off shore.

For maximum cover of darkness during final launch preparation, the attack will come near the Winter Solstice. Christmas or Hanukkah - take your pick.
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