Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Friday, December 07, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Making an Issue Out of a Religion
by Charles Krauthammer
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



WASHINGTON -- When Mitt Romney's father ran for the presidency 40 years ago, his Mormonism was not an issue. When Mo Udall was a major challenger for the Democratic nomination in 1976, his religion was so irrelevant that today most people don't even remember that Udall was a Mormon.

Five members of the Senate are Mormon. Are there any intimations that the Mormonism of Harry Reid, Orrin Hatch, Gordon Smith, Michael Crapo or Robert Bennett corrupts, distorts or in any way diminishes their ability to perform their constitutional duties?

Mormonism should be a total irrelevancy in any political campaign. It is not. Which is why Mitt Romney had to deliver his JFK "religion speech" this week. He didn't want to. But he figured that he had to. Why? Because he's being overtaken in Iowa. Why Iowa? Because about 40 percent of the Republican caucus voters in 2000 were self-described "Christian conservatives" -- twice the number of those in New Hampshire, for example -- and, for many of them, Mormonism is a Christian heresy.

That didn't seem to matter for much of this year when Romney had a commanding lead and his religion seemed a manageable political problem -- until Mike Huckabee came along and caught up to Romney in the Iowa polls.

The appealing aspects of Huckabee's politics and persona account for much of this. But part of his rise in Iowa is attributable to something rather less appealing: playing the religion card. The other major candidates -- John McCain, Rudy Giuliani and Fred Thompson -- either never figured out how to use it or had the decency to refuse to deploy it.

Huckabee has exploited Romney's Mormonism with an egregious subtlety. Huckabee is running a very effective ad in Iowa about religion. "Faith doesn't just influence me," he says on camera, "it really defines me." The ad then hails him as a "Christian leader."

Forget the implications of the idea that being a "Christian leader" is some special qualification for the presidency of a country whose Constitution (Article VI) explicitly rejects any religious test for office.

Just imagine that Huckabee were running one-on-one in Iowa against Joe Lieberman. (It's a thought experiment. Stay with me.) If he had run the same ad in those circumstances, it would have raised an outcry. The subtext -- who's the Christian in this race? -- would have been too obvious to ignore, the appeal to bigotry too clear.

Well, Huckabee is running against Romney (the other GOP candidates are non-factors in Iowa) and he knows that many Christian conservatives, particularly those who have an affinity with Huckabee's highly paraded evangelical Christianity, consider Romney's faith a decidedly non-Christian cult.

Huckabee has been asked about this view that Mormonism is a cult. He dodges and dances. "If I'm invited to be the president of a theological school, that'll be a perfectly appropriate question," he says, "but to be the president of the United States, I don't know that that's going to be the most important issue that I'll be facing when I'm sworn in."

Hmmm. So it is an issue, Huckabee avers. But not a very important one. And he's not going to pronounce upon it. Nice straddle, leaving the question unanswered and still open -- the kind of maneuver one comes to expect from slick former governors of Arkansas lusting for the presidency.

And by Huckabee's own logic, since he is not running for head of a theological college, what is he doing proclaiming himself a "Christian leader" in an ad promoting himself for (BEG ITAL)president(END ITAL)?

Answer: Having the issue every which way. Seeming to take the high road of tolerance by refusing to declare Mormonism a cult, indeed declaring himself above the issue -- yet clearly playing to that prejudice by leaving the question ambiguous, while making sure everyone knows that he, for one, is a "Christian leader."

The God of the Founders, the God on the coinage, the God for whom Lincoln proclaimed Thanksgiving Day is the ineffable, ecumenical, nonsectarian Providence of the American civil religion whose relation to this blessed land is without appeal to any particular testament or ritual.

Every mention of God in every inaugural address in American history refers to the deity in this kind of all-embracing, universal, nondenominational way. (The one exception: William Henry Harrison. He caught cold delivering that inaugural address. Thirty-one days later, he was dead. Draw your own conclusion.) I suspect that neither Jefferson's Providence nor Washington's Great Author nor Lincoln's Almighty would look kindly on the exploitation of religious differences for political gain. It is un-American. It is unfortunate that Romney has had to justify himself in response.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

Be the first to read Charles Krauthammer's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Maybe I shouldn't feel this way.
Ted Kennedy is from Massachusetts.

John Kerry is from Massachusetts.

The same people who elected those two also elected Mitt Romney.

That makes me wonder just how much the last is like the first two.

I probably shouldn't feel that way but it worries me.



Prank and Joke Christmas decorations
http://www.givemetheinfo.com/Christmas-prank-gifts/

we can't both be right
you are quite an optomist Savage Alum because

accrding to your mormon religion as brought forth by joe smith, I belong to an apostatte faith and might get to terrestrial or telestial kingdoms depending on how my life was lived on earth. So if you stay mediocre and I do really well maybe we will meet in the terrestrial kindgdom.

I wonder which kingdom the thief on the cross went to because he had no time to do any good works while on earth??


I like Christianity much better because it is based on nothing I do but on everything Jesus did. Christ did not die in vain for the Christian. He did all the work. My works are a result of saving faith. I GET to serve Jesus not HAVE to serve like my bike peddling elders. Also salvation by grace alone is a biblical concept. Past mormon Pres bruce mcconkie considers salvation by grace alone the "second greatest heresy of Christianity": calling it a "soul destroying doctrine". Why are you so sure I will be with you in heaven? Your leaders say otherwise. I need grace, Thanks Jesus!!

Do lots of good works today to acheive the exaltation you desire. I look forward to seeing the thief on the cross. Now that is grace!

aloha,
mike


Mike
You just like to fight. Read Titus Chapter 2. Verses 11-14 are primo as to how our "version" of Christianity embraces both grace and works.

My promise is to Christ Jesus, not to any man, especially after reading the Bible and all the sects having so many versions of what the Bible says and what their "truth" is. Try it!

Got to a variety of "Christian" churches and you will find they do have alot in common, but none offer the Biblical/Apostolic church. So when I read the BoM it was weird at first but it felt right.

I believe it is true, not because some guy said so and certainly not because another said not to believe it (and many said not to read it). I explored it for myself and though it took me a while to cast off the well meaning but misguided teachings I had been exposed to in my youth, I finally asked God as my Father in Heaven exclusively. (similar phrasology used by Christian Chaplains when I was in the military) He spoke to my soul. Try to talk to God sometime without all the filters and you'll be surprised by the changes that will occur as God works a mighty work in you.

Be good. Have a great life! I hope you are happy and I am sure you are living equal to your beliefs and I champion your cause and only hope you will bow down to God someday and ask in humility to know His mind and will for you personally. Either way, I look forward to seeing you on the other side. No matter the glory, we'll all be together when the fullness of the plan of salvation is revealed and I know that both of us will be able to benefit from His glory and the Ressurection and Atonement.

All my best my friend (and fellow Christian)

B

PS being in HI now you are already in something of an earthly paradise especially compared to that cesspool of NY (I know, upstate is much nicer and not the same as)

savage alum.....we just differ on the???
Sorry Salvage alum, I could take any believing Christian from anywhere in the world and ask them the essentials on Christianity and we would have the same answers.

If mormons and Christians are so alike you better get a memo the the two young elders working my street on a regular basis. Their explaination of salvation is confusing at best and it is sad to see them stuck in that works oriented bondage. It would take a few sessions with me to get me ready for salvation in the mormon church according to them. Very weird to say the least.
You should hear their archeological excuses on the short falling of the book of mormon as a historic document.. At least when I read the Bible they are at least speaking about real places you can still go to now.

Wow a former promise keeper. Not so good on keeping promises I see??
I glad the God of the Bible keeps His promises. I would be really dissapointed about all the promises to be fulfilled by joe smith.
But hey, when we can't agree on the essentials of Christianity and still think you are a Chhristian, you can pretty much over look any prophecy that's false or never going to be fulfilled.


Did you have to get really really for sure saved when you became a mormon???? You did, didn't you!!!!!! Wow you really did loose the promises.

Also you can see joe smith's gun he used(fired as in bang bang) and had on his person when he was killed in MO. It is in the museum across the street from temple square in Salt Lake City. It is an Ethan Allen pepper box model.

The Bible is the only document one needs know about the Trinity and the diety of Jesus Christ. I am not side stepping anything. But you have to in order to make the square peg of mormonism fit in the round hole of Christianity.

BTW, can you name one believing Christian Leader in America that states mormons are Christian? Maybe the leader of promise keepers?????

mike


Sandy Rios and Douglas MacKinnon's
articles both give me pause with reference to both Romney and Huckabee, now they are about like Giuliani...

Alas, No Reagans on the ballot

Still GOP over Human Secularists any day no matter what church they say they belong to, then act counter to the Christian teachings and beliefs.

Mike...Pre tell
NY hey? I guess that explains some of the verbal tar and feathering. That's really a bit of humor, not an indictment as I have no pedigree. As Huckabee said himself about his Christians (Baptists), "If you put 7 Baptists in a room and asked a gospel question, you would get 50 different answers", I am sure mine would have a few differing opinions with differing individuals.

Have all the Biblical prophecies been fulfilled to date? Don't let your hate and (again) your sidestepping of the Nicean Creed discussion shade your logic. If a prophecy has not yet been fulfilled I still hold the Bible to be true, but sounds like you may not feel the same, assuming you are saying that JS' prophecies are not all Yet fulfilled, hence...?

"Christ, grace, mercy salvation through Him" sounds like we will be seeing each other in Heaven and we are Christians afterall as we believe exacting that. I knew we were all along.

Oh, now I am not a mormon historian, but before being converted to the faith I have studied alot. And you are right, in part, that Mormons were exterminated by law partly because of their political beliefs. One of those was an opposition to slavery in MO where the balance of a tie breaker lay as to whether the the US would be Pro or anti slavery. When the people of the area wrote the news articles, surprise, none admitted to being the orchestrators of the mobs and their violence against Mormons.

Not ALL christians but a select and powerful few Evangelicals who ran things in MO and IL where the LDS turned a swamp into a city where others chose to join the Mormons in living there, not where mormons swarmed and kicked others out as you infer.

savage alum.....part 3 and 4
Regarding part III- Thanks for your warm sentiment, misguided as it may be. Growing up on the river where joe smith saw the golden tablets and translated the egyptian writings to the highly edited, changed, not so racist version of the book of mormon you hold as precious today. I know all too much about mormonism and it's origins. One of Joe's son's that died on his trek to western NY is buried in my family's cemetary.
I am not so sure about me seeing any mormons in heaven or whatever of the 3 levels of heaven you are talking about. If you are in level 3 and I am on level 1 is there an elevator that we can visit each other?


Part IV: Adam unfruitful? Well "bro" that's another issue mormons are again proven non christian. To a mormon the fallen Adam is a good thing since all those premortal beings need to get into an earthly body. To Christians the Fallen Adam was not a good thing. But thankfully the creator of all, Jesus Christ, has provided us with grace and mercy in Salvation through him. I know this Christian Jesus is not the one as understood by mormons, but hey if you accept the fact that mormonism is not Christian and never will be, your group could be the #1 largest non-christian whatever you boost so proudly about in your last post.

Just think, we can't both be right. Glad your churches prophecies are coming true in your spiritual sight.(the same sight the witnesses needed to see the golden leafs) How's it going with all the unfullfilled joe smith prophecy that remains to happen still????

mike

savage alum...thanks for making my point
Regarding your 1st response.............Thank you for furthering the point how mormons are not Christians. I could not have done it better myself.
The mormon version of the holy ghost,......wow, and mormonism is not a cult by the pure definition of the word????

Regarding the 2nd response: No I know probably more about the Bible and the add on mormon books than most of the mormon priesthood. The "elder missonary" youth that come to my door prove to me on a regular basis how much they don't even know about the mormon faith. What is interesting to me is they are not allowed to tell me their first name. Only get to call home 2 times a year, and can't go in the ocean(we live in Hawaii) while they are on mission status because of some extremely strange mormon dogma I won't bore you with.
Not a cult( in the bad sense of the word) huh? Oh yeah, I am told by them I can be "Saved" after 3 visits and bible studies and then their manager checks me out and interviews me. So much for " Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
— 2 Corinthians 6:2

II have no religious test for any canidate. But for those who do, that is their wonderful, American right to vote how ever they want. I think of people more simply as a "believing Christian" or a non believer. Unless it's 100% belief it falls way short, but that is between God and each individual not me. Glad to see your scoring system works for your though.

parts 3 and 4 coming
mike

mike
Mike, I was talking about Savage Alum's axe grinding, in regards to his comment about Christians being murderers.

After reading one of your previous comments, you basically said the same thing that I did.

Sorry for the confusion.

It happens when you come into an on going conversation and don't read all of the comments.

Mike I forgot a point I wanted 2 address
Was Adam unfruitful? Didn't he too have a son who departed from the way? Weren't all of Noah's children of the faith and yet look at the results even a generation or two later. Now look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and how it is the 4th largest US church and among the largest Christian churches in the world. We all have free agency bro.




Mormonism and Free Masonry
When was the last time you were allowed into a Masonic Lodge Hall?

The only time the public is allowed into a Mormon temple is just prior to its dedication.

After that you must be a temple Mormon to enter the temple.

By the way Joseph Smith was a Mason and there are many parallels between Mormonism's and Freemasonry's rituals and symbols.

Huckabee
If he is the GOP nominee I have no problem voting for him even if he and many who align with him are Mormon-haters, dislikers, disagree(ers etc...

The greater good is more important than focusing on minor or alleged differences. And if he turns out to be someone who persecutes my faith, which he won't of course in public, that is just another confirmation of prophecy that we will be persecuted in the last days as stated so often in the Bible.

ciao

Mike part 3
I can see by all your emotion in conclusion, that you are perhaps angry. Not my intent. I do however look forward to meeting you in Heaven and both of us learning a whole lot more than we are able to know here on this side of the veil. I think that statement alone will put you in shock, (because I am not going to be saved...thank God, literally that we get the benefit of His interpretations and not some school taught thoeologian) but I am certain you will find Christ to be a much better recognizer of His sheep than you or your minister, because it is Christ in whom I put my faith. Can't wait to see your face, because having been a former member of another faith by birth and a Promise Keeper member at one point, I know you think you will be looking down on me in Hell, so when we are together it will be interesting to see whether you hate me still or want to apologize. I'll apologize now for making you angry in this life and give you a hug in heaven when your eyes are opened. Until then brother in the faith and worship of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Mike Part 2
Have you ever even read the Bible from cover to cover or just been "taught" it? Joseph Smith was merely a prophet who like all other prophets, was an instrument in God's hands who revealed the fulness of the original church again to mankind. He has absolutely no salvationary attributes, although your perspective seems to have a fantasy complex that he is more to us than Noah, Moses, Abraham etc. But admittedly pretty good company. Nevertheless the Michael Moore version would make him more and you seem to have taken the bait. Ezekial 37: 15-20 prophesies of the Book of Mormon, another thing you I'm sure love to hate, but if not the BOM, what is it talking about? Show me the other stick (Book).


The "guilt trip" is nothing more than an observance that you would choose a heathen to a person from the Church of Jesus Christ, and by doing so, spitefully ignore a fellow Christian (or someone you feel is 80-90% of one) to make a ???POINT??? and hire yourself a leader that is maybe 20% Christian in walking the walk but who might go to a church (on Easter and Christmas)that talks the talk. If you feel guilty, that's on you.


Mike Part 1
You seem to have a Jos Smith and Christ equivalancy fantasy. You are misinformed and ill-informed on so many levels. Joe's guns blazing??? He was in imprisoned (jail) and shot without he himself firing back. The mobs were stirred up by religious zealots and their leaders. Nice sidestepping of the Trinity's Nicean origins. I wouldn't want to address it either if I were in your shoes...painfully hard to defend and unfortunately all too well documented to dispute. And yes, acceptable to all but a few (of the acceptable Christians) embrace that version as exclusive evidence or orthordoxy of "Christianity". Much like many of us accept the Constituation is it's original form verses the new activist court version the masses now seem to embrace. I prefer the original in BOTH cases.

You think, that latter day saints believe the trinity is an invention.?? No way! Just the Trinity as defined by Constantine. I think you have read or viewed too many godmaker books or films respectively. Michael Moore-(ON) would be proud of the folks who did those and perhaps even jealous of how the facts were so well twisted.

God is the Father(1). Jesus Christ(2) is the On and only Son and our Atoning Savior without whom there is no hope of being saved. The Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct being giving man the ability to feel the comfort and guidance of our Two separate and distinct Heavenly Family(3). Biblical trinity and easy to understand.


speaking of racists
foxfire22,
Sorry for the confusion, I was quoting S alum.

But what I don't hear anyone talking about is the recent racist "fruits" of the LDS church. If you open your book of mormon you would be hard to find a copy right older than 1981 when they had finally change the policy of darked skinned people in high leadership/priesthood positions and thus had to change those verses in the BOM to now fit the new and improved policies. Theologically it's problematic because all the first LDS "prophets" who started and continued into the late 70's this discriminating doctrine which was all of a sudden reversed by Prophet Kimball.
Maybe that's were Gov Romney learned how to flip-flop.

If Gov Romney gets the nomination the Dems are going to have a hay day with this stuff. Just wait and see. He doesn't have a racist bone in his body and because he belongs to a non Christian church that did have rascists policies he will have to answer to al sharpton and get the imus treatment



Hope you didn't get any metal flakes in your eyes from me grinding my axe.

mike

Mike
Sorry Mike, I may have confused you with Savage Alum

mike


mike writes: Monday, December, 10, 2007 5:22 AM
Savage Alum.........what????? part I
you state:
"What is absolute is that "Christians" murdered several mormons Jos Smith included, just for having a different belief of how they interpret Christianity."

Foxfire:

It's hard not to stereotype when you have an axe to grind.

Some white's hanged black's, so, all white's are racists, and murderers. Is that rational thinking.

How do you know that they were “Christians”, and what makes you think that the Word of God sanctioned of such an act.

Just because a group of nuts put on fatigues and take a guns to the mall and start shooting up the place does not mean that the US Army has invaded the mall.

People have said the same thing about the Inquisition.

Lots of Christians have been murdered. I prefer saying that sinners and God haters put them to death.

savage Alum.............what???? part II

Regarding the Trinity: you can label your church anything you want but being off on the trinity makes you non christian no mattter what flavor of religion you claim. The Christian doctrine of the trinity is from Bible origins, not able to be understood by a finite and created mind of how one God can be evident in 3 persons.

You must be a mormon because your view of the Trinity is right on with the mormon doctrine in that: the Trinity was an invention of the apostate church, cannot be true because it cannot be understood, and connot be true because the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are merly one in person. A HUGE difference so this essential belief of Christians is not held by mormons making them not Christians.

FRUITS??? Do you know of anyone that is nice, hardworking, successful, loving, just an outstanding citizens who are muslim,agnostic, non-christian? Gov Romney seems like a perfect citizen and would probably make a great president. None of his great works and wonderful fruit from those works makes him a Christian. Mormons are not Christians.

Voting is a very personal thing. People can vote for someone based on looks, shoe size or even policy. Take your guilt trip of "if you're a Christian and don't vote for the chosen one you are an evil loser" trip out of here. That sounds like something prophet joe would say and think.

As far as your "fellow Christian" comment, you can't be talking about Goiv Romney since he is mormon. Are you talking aobut Hackabee the minister of the mormon viewed apostate religion?????

mike

Savage Alum.........what????? part I
you state:
"What is absolute is that "Christians" murdered several mormons Jos Smith included, just for having a different belief of how they interpret Christianity."

I read the historic account as 100 armed men stormed joe's jail cell and took justice into their own hands. Never mentioned anything about christians doing it and no person was ever charged. What is halarious is how this is considered martydom for joe smith like that of Christ himself. Lets compare the sacrificial death of Christ which was quiet, humble and peacful versus joe smith with his guns a-blazing.
Joe's mormon pronouncements earned him many enemies outside the LDS church and even many of his closest advisors. Claiming "divine right to Missouri land and the time of gentiles(any one not mormon) was short" are fighting words. The fear of mormons was little to do with religion though, but of being overwhelmed politically, socially, culturally, economically by mormon immigration.
I am always amazed of how even his own son split away from his beliefs and dogma. Now those fruits we just need to ignore right???



mike

CHECK OUT YOUTUBE SPOOF OF THE DEBATE
Check out this youtube video Tom Tancredo posted today. It's hilarious making fun of the Univision Republican Debate tonight. He's urging people to boycott the Spanish language Presidential debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5GUCQAdlxg&feature=user

Enjoy!

Mike
An iron fisted Joseph Smith? Your point of view, not an absolute. What is absolute is that "Christians" murdered several mormons Jos Smith included, just for having a different belief of how they interpret Christianity. Not unlikely some of your churches forefathers were either involved or stood by with tacit approval at the time. Obviously all the dozens of, if not 100's of Christian churches see things differently too. The "accepted" version of the trinity came from a merging of politics, lore and Christianity. It (Christianity as it is defined today and by you) looks nothing like the apostolic Christian church (original), because a pagan and his associates formed the nicean creed which became the "accepted" version and at odds with the Bible's teachings.

All of that aside, I agree with foxfire 22. Faith and works (James 2:14-26) Also, Christ talks about knowing his followers by their fruits. Romney, by all that is obvious is talented and has many great works and fruits to his credit and disparaging his faith by this whole "my God is better than your God" diatribe when it is simply the same God just how two groups have differing perspectives is not going to do anything but divide the GOP.

There are actually people calling themselves Christians that won't vote for Romney if he is the Republican nominee, therefore giving the election to a group that embraces abortion, European "healthcare", high taxes, immorality on many levels and bowing to our enemies and would be oppressors who by most all measures are Godless. Go figure. Push a Godless agenda to keep a fellow Christian out because he does not adhere to the book of Mike and Constantine.

Roxy-1
I wouldn't count on Carter being a Christian.
At least I wouldn't take that to the bank.

The peanut man doesn't even believe the Bible.

Show Me Thy Faith
I'm defending or condemning Romney's beliefs.

I don't agree with Mormon doctrine, but saving faith is between him and God, I can only see the outward man.

In my 35+ years of being a Christian I can say with complete confidence, show me thy faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Faith that does not produce fruit is worthless.

Romney shows evidence of being a descent man with morals. So, what are you looking for, a gold plated name tag that says Christian.

Huchabee could be a hypocrite for all you know.

Choose the best man for the job.

I still like Hunter, but it looks like he doesn’t have a snow ball chance.

How Ironic.
Does anyone else find it just a tad ironic or perhaps even disingenuous that the talking heads of the GOP/Conservative establishment are crying about how religion shouldn't be an issue?

Isn't this the party/group which has exploited religion, "the faithfull,Jesus, god, etc. for the last 25 years? Isn't this the party that has convinced millions of voters to follow them SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of advancing their own religious beliefs? Hello..."values voters" anyone?

Isn't this the party that's convinced millions that it is their duty and right to use the government as a tool by which to foist THEIR OWN religious beliefs on a number of subjects onto everyone else in the country?

Making an issue out of religion? Yes, Charles, that certainly is something YOUR PARTY has worked very hard at for the last 25 years! If any GOPer likes Romney, and he ends up not getting the nom. for religious reasons, blame yourself, blame your own party. Mitt is being bit on the a** by the inflexable intolerance monster that the GOP created and still nurtures until this day!

What was that the Buddhist teach about Karma?

Mormonism
Great column as usual, Dr. Krauthammer. Now please write a column advising all Republicans to vote for John McCain for the nomination for President. I don't see any other candidate I'm interested in voting for. It's too bad that Huckabee is turning out to be a weasel. When I first heard about him, I thought that he might be a good Vice Presidential candidate with John McCain since McCain's experience is all in the Senate and Huckabee actually ran a state as governer, albeit the most piriful state in the Union, luckily for Mississippi.If McCain doesn't win, I don't have a candidate for the first time in the 49 years that I have been voting. Unless you run.
Yours truly,
Ruth Valdez

For Roxy-1
A common mistake which many people (including ironically Christians) make is in seeing any pol as the "saviour" of their country, state/province, ...

Still, the record of measures/laws passed in Taxachussets during Romney's time is worrisome.

We are not electing a pastor
Being a Christian does not make you a good president! Carter is a Christian and the worst president of modern times. Huckabee resorts to emotional appeals instead of facts and logic, so beware. I don't want a prez with puppy-dog eyes and smarmy cliches who manipulates feelings. I like Romney's predator eyes that laser in on problems and his clear, logical communication.

I pray (as a Christian) that the people of Iowa and this country recognize that Romney, although not perfect, is the smartest, most capable and most moral candidate we have. To vote for someone just because he is a Christian is plain stupid, just as it is to reject a fabulous candidate because he isn't. Romney is an outsider with the money to finance a campaign and challenge the establishment. This is a rare opportunity, one that we may never see again, and I pray we don't blow it.

Charles is Right
I think Krauthammer is right on the money on this one. The only reason for Huckabee's claim to be a "Christian leader" is to distinguish himself. The implication, of course, is that the other candidates, and most notably the former front-runner Romney, are not Christians. His appeal is clearly directed at the bigoted Christians in Iowa, and it appears to have worked, as witnessed by the shift in poll numbers.

Huckabee is attempting to play cute with this tactic, refusing to answer questions about the unspoken accusation his tactics raise. If he is not exploiting anti-Mormon bigotry, why doesn't he simply answer the question about whether he thinks Mormonism is a cult? The answer is clear. If he indicates that he does not believe Mormonism is a cult, he loses the support of the Christian Taliban that is beginning to look to him for leadership. If he says that he does believe that Mormonism is a cult, he alienates those who believe in religious freedom and tolerance.

Huckabee's avoidance of the cult issue speaks loudly and disturbingly. He is either fanning hatred to garner support, or he actually believes Mormons are non-Christian cultists. Though it is hard to say which scenario is more shameful, either one should disqualify him from serious consideration as a presidential candidate. An individual who desires to be president, or to be a real Christian leader for that matter, should be above such tactics.

I would add that, based on Huckabee's rising numbers, the Mormons, and there are six or seven million of them in the US, ought to be reconsidering their allegiance to the Republican party. A party that accepts their "cultist" votes, but tells them not to bother applying for leadership doesn't deserve their loyalty.

Jon, you are right
Jon, I agree. Just because I walk in my garage it doesn't make me a chevrolet. Just like anyone who walks into a Christian Church doesn't make them a believing Christian. So all the person's you mention answer to God themself. "prophet" Joseph Smith on the other hand didn't believe in most of what you mention. As mayor he shut down the local newspaper and ruled with an iron fist with his militia. But he is the founder and leader of the church. So I can only judge someone by their actions and prophet joe doesn't quite fit the same mold as Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin.

My only beef with this whole Gov Romney campaign is the fact that mormons "want to be considered Christians syndrome" raises its ugly head. They aren't and never will be by doctrine, definiton and common sense. I don't care what they believe or practice but as you see from the above posts the claim of being Christian is real.

So when the claim of mormons being Christian comes I think I have the right to question mormon theology.
Just like the 3 witness's and all the others through the years who questioned this religion and no longer belong to this non christian church.




What the...
Hell is wrong with respectful disagreement?

Re: Populism of Huckabee
Huckabee, with his quaint little references to "we are better than that" and "taxpayers, not tax-takers" is really appointing himself as a "better than thou" advocate for what Christians "should" believe. Of course, it is a short, hop, ship and a jump to being the advocate for one's Christian health.

That is what Huckabee has become. No substance, just ideas planted for people to adopt, just in case they are too shy to make up their own minds on the importance of being of a certain religion.

This is the worst of all populism since it diminishes the strength of ideas and places them at the mercy of prejudice.

At least McCarthy, Debs and others appealed to higher standards within the hearts of man, albeit misguided, which gives the voter something to subscribe to or refute. Huckabee's populism is deceitful and gives us little to evaluate him, if we don't look behind the man's words. There we find someone who wants power to control in the name of God!

Take care

Best Qualified
I'm not likely to vote for a Republican. I'm especially not going to vote for someone because of
their religion. I'm agnostic. But Mitt Romney is the best qualified Republican by far to run this country. He has the resume. He's been successful in every job he's done. That's really what should be the focus. I wouldn't be bothered by a Romney win.
I'm not bothered by his tactics to win the nomination either. Apparently he felt he needed to make this speech and Republicans need to accept it
or reject it. If you accept him, there will be at least one decent presidential candidate. The US could use that.

Mike
Okay. I'll agree with you. Mormonism isn't "Christianity." But given that Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin denied Original Sin, the Trinity, Incarnation, Atonement, and other central tenets of Christianity, they weren't "Christians" either.

Who's Prejudiced?
Mr. Krauthammer, I have a high degree of respect for you and your faith. I respect Mitt Romney and would be willing to vote for him. I am also what you would term and "evangelical Christian." You are a smart man but I believe you have seriously miscast Mr. Huckabee as well as a lot of evangelical Christians. Huckabee may or may not be the right man for the White House, but your derogatory assessment of his motives is a disappointing.

Jon misunderstands
Jon you are confused terribly.

Jon writes "Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin may have called and understood themselves to be "Christians" in some sense. "


In "some sense" I may think I am all knowing abot the mormon faith but you seem to disagree.

I am a believing Christian and can explain to you very specifically why. I am not confused or have any "some sense" attitude towards my faith.

The biggest confusion to me is how Gov Romney doesn't feel it is appropriate to question him about his faith but openy states the "Jesus Christ" is his lord and savior in his speech. Seems to me he is pandering to a certain voting group. It seems to me after blurting that out I can ask him to explain further this statement.

Many Christian terms are missunderstood easily and misused by mormons. So I don't want to get too technical theologically speaking.

But if you look at Christian understandings and doctrines of God the Father, Jesus, the Trinity, Salvation, the Bible, and compare it to mormonism its is easy to understand mormonism is incompatible with Christian theology.

The mormon doctrine of "preexistence and the second estate" would even make Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin raise an eyebrow "in some sense".

Stating mormonism is Christianity until you are blue in the face will not make it true.

I have to go now, I need to get back to translating Egypian.

mike

Romney's religious problem, Pt. 2
It is a small but crucial distinction from the point that Jack Kennedy made almost 50 years ago. If having religion is important in the public square, it is a small jump to insist that a candidate have a particular religion or a particular set of beliefs. We are already seeing that from various sources regarding Romney’s Mormonism. We've also seen some posters here insist any religion is fine with them, so long as it's not the Muslim faith. Others would have made the same point about Jews or people of other faiths at different points in our history.

This is the problem that arises when religion becomes an issue in public and secular discourse. The religious conservatives are the ones who pushed to re-inject religious tests into political debate. Although they are certainly entitled to their honest and sincere religious convictions, many equally sincere and moral Americans like me object to any religious tests when it comes to the issues facing the courthouse, the statehouse or the White House.

I, for one, much prefer Kennedy's concept.

Romney's religious problem, Pt. 1
Quite an interesting exchange of views today with a minimum of name-calling and vituperation. I have to say it's refreshing.

Krauthammer is correct that Mormonism was not an issue when George Romney ran for president 40 years ago. It is strange that he forgets to tell us why.

The reason is that Jack Kennedy took the issue of religion off the table with his speech during the 1960 campaign. Religion should not be an issue in the public square, Kennedy said. Each person was entitled to his or her own faith but that faith should not guide decisions in our government, which is secular by nature.

In the intervening years, especially the past 20 years, we have had a major push-back to that concept. There are many who insist today that religion, or even a particular denominational persuasion, should be an issue or even a litmus test. They argue that personal religious beliefs should guide not only our individual behavior but also our conduct as public men and women. Some in these posts today have insisted that religion -- or lack thereof -- should be a major criterion for voting behavior.

My problem with Romney's speech was that he departed from Kennedy's concept. Granted he has to walk a tightrope so as not to alienate a heavily evangelical GOP electorate in Iowa. Yet his point was that religion was a valid test. In fact, at one point in his speech he insisted that religion is a necessary prerequisite to freedom and democracy. Religion should matter, just not the details of his Mormon religion, unless I miss his point. Or perhaps he believes it is acceptable to have any religion as long as you have one.

On second thought:
Romney vs. atheist was a bad example, because I personally would vote for whoever would lead the USA in the right direction generally. For example, Mr. Krauthammer is a secular Jew, to my knowledge, and I would have to think hard to make a choice between him and Romney.

According to Mike's logic
As Mike put it:

"Unfortunately Jefferson's Providence nor Washington's Great Author nor Lincoln's Almighty hear the prayer of a mormon since they are crying out to a different god than the God of the Bible."

According to this logic neither Jefferson's Providence nor Washington's Great Author nor Lincoln's Almighty hear prayers, because, like Mormonism, NONE of them were "Christians" as Mike understands that term and arguably NONE of them prayed to the God of the Bible, so strictly defined.


Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin may have called and understood themselves to be "Christians" in some sense. But so do Mormons! Given that America's key Founders, like the Mormons, reject central tenets of Christianity, arguably neither group were "Christians" however they identified themselves.

America's key Founders rejected, among other doctrines of Christianity, Original Sin, the Trinity, Incarnation, and Atonement of Christ.

How would you vote if...
mike, Rebbe, & AudiR10: I'm curious to know how you would vote in these hyperbolic examples:

- Romney vs. Jimmy Carter
- Romney vs. any atheist
- Romney vs. Hillary Clinton

I would vote Romney in all these cases.

skep41: good point. I don't know whether you're Christian, like me--your screen name seems to indicate otherwise--but I agree with you that single-issue voting hurts more than helps.

bob & David Austin: good points about the power of Congress & the populace it represents to restrict the ability of any President to implement the law of his or her religious Utopia.

Odd column for Krauthammer to write
Wasn't it just last week that Charles Krauthammer wrote a column talking about how George Bush's faith-based stand against federal funding for embyronic stemm cell research had been vindicated? And what a triumph for the community of faith it had been when scientists began to find other ways of mutating different cells into acting like stem cells, thereby providing a triumph for Bush's stand?

Earlier this week, those who made the discoveries had called Krauthammer's bluff. Not only was the seminal research done in Japan, where there is no similar ban on use of embryonic stem cells, but they said Krauthammer completely misunderstood the science and how these new discoveries were made. The American ban, according to researcher James Thomson, one of those who made the new discoveries, set their research back some four-to-five years.

But I guess being Charles Krauthammer means never having to say you are sorry.

The biggest damage of our ban, by the way, is yet to play out. The industries now beginning to arise from stem cell breakthroughs, which are some of the most promising medical discoveries of our times, are well-established in the advanced research communities of Western Europe, especially Scandinavia. Many top American researchers have already relocated to universities in Sweden, Denmark and England, where their work continues. And when it comes time for their research to grow into medical companies that provide new jobs and the possibility of further medical breakthroughs, it will be those countries that benefit, not ours.

Odd column for Krauthammer
Wasn't it just last week that Charles Krauthammer wrote a column talking about how George Bush's faith-based stand against federal funding for embyronic stemm cell research had been vindicated? And what a triumph for the community of faith it had been when scientists began to find other ways of mutating different cells into acting like stem cells, thereby providing a triumph for Bush's stand?

Earlier this week, those who made the discoveries had called Krauthammer's bluff. Not only was the seminal research done in Japan, where there is no similar ban on use of embryonic stem cells, but they said Krauthammer completely misunderstood the science and how these new discoveries were made. The American ban, according to researcher James Thomson, one of those who made the new discoveries, set their research back some four-to-five years.

But I guess being Charles Krauthammer means never having to say you are sorry.

The biggest damage of our ban, by the way, is yet to play out. The industries now beginning to arise from stem cell breakthroughs, which are some of the most promising medical discoveries of our times, are well-established in the advanced research communities of Western Europe, especially Scandinavia. Many top American researchers have already relocated to universities in Sweden, Denmark and England, where their work continues. And when it comes time for their research to grow into medical companies that provide new jobs and the possibility of further medical breakthroughs, it will be those countries that benefit, not ours.

13 Articles of Faith of Mormonism
Written by Joseph Smith they encompass the core of LDS beliefs. Just like transubstatiation falls outside the core of Catholic beliefs, all beliefs outside of these 13 tenets fall outside the core of lds beliefs:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1

This is all you have to believe to be a Mormon. Extra stuff is extra stuff - there is no compulsion or requirement to profess a belief in anything else. You want to know what Mitt believes. Its this. PAY ATTENTION TO ARTICLE #11:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

in this speech Romney took it a step further by saying that men will not be penalized for worshiping God according to the dictates of their own conscience.

Mormonism ISN'T the issue...
Mitt Romney's Mormon beliefs are not much of an issue with me. I disagree with him very strongly, of course, but he's not asking to be my pastor.

What does bother me about Romney is his wishy-washiness. I fear that when the chips are down, he will do what is politically expedient instead of standing by his principles. That's what he did as governor of Massachussetts.

I doubt seriously that I will vote for Romney in the primaries. If he gets the nomination, I will certainly prefer him to Hillary or Obama, but it will be a reluctant vote on my part. He'll have to do a lot of talking to get my confidence.

correction to above post
oops I didn't mean to say (besides the new testament) - obviously I was on a different line of thinking when I typed that.

Mormons becoming Gods flak
Are you sick of hearing about this as much as me? Probably not, because you don't know that it isn't part of their core beliefs. Show me one place (beside the New Testament) in the Mormon scriptures where it says Mormons will become Gods with multiple wives and populate planets.

NO MORMON SCRIPTURE SAYS ANY OF THAT! NOT IN THE BOOK OF MORMON, OR ANY OTHER LDS SCRIPTURE. READ IT AND PROVE ME WRONG.

Now I know, you read about it, or your pastor had some traveling snake salesman show you a movie about it or you saw a cartoon created by excommunicated Mormons and so you think it's true.

I'm Mormon and I kid you not when I say that if I told my Bishop that I believe all of it except the stuff about becoming God and having wives and lots of planets that he won't care. I can still go to the temple. I can still do anything any other member can. Why? Because you can't even back up those beliefs in the Mormons scriptures (Book of Mormon, D&C, P of GP).

I don't know any Mormons (and for 40 years I'm about as neck deep in the religion as anyone) who "look forward to being a God". Nor do I know any who look forward to having multiple wives or planets. It just isn't who we are.

Get to know us, and you'll discover for yourselves. Seems like a better thing to do than to spread this culture of hatred you've been exposed to yourself.

So some ask, why doesn't Mitt say this? Duh, because it's inconceivable that he should have to. Read article 6 of the constitution if you haven't figured that out yet.

Gator you might have something
I hadn't considered that some of the "Pro-Christianity" and Anti Church of Jesus Christ people might be libs or RINOs. It is an interesting paradigm shift for them to be so hateful of Christians 24/7 and now are stirring the pot (assuming you are correct)

Hagar is right. The topic was the speech and the response and I enjoyed both as well as Goldberg's and Buchanan's. He (Romney) was and is presidential, has managed economies and companies and has governed. I wish there were a Reagan Conservative, but I'll take the best of the semi-Reaganites (and even that is a bit of a stretch to tag them as such) and so far, I like Mitt, Tancredo if he had more influencing abilities and I guess Thompson.

Its Funny
It is so funny to sit here and read you LIBS defending Christianity over Mormonism when everyday you bash the Christian RIGHT.



Savage Alum, I don't think that I bashed
all mormons based on Harry Reid. Mostly, I think I clarified with the opinion that he is not a very "good" mormon, or human for that matter. But if your only examples of Baptists are Bill, Hillary and Jimmuh Cawta, them perhaps all baptists are bad. (just joking!)

Actually, the fact that Huckabee wears his religion on his sleeve in a very similar manner to Carter, I have serious reservations about his becoming President and using the same justifications for being a repeat of the worst President ever.

Maybe in several thousand years
We can come to an agreement of the "correct" religious group. But I think we have seriously digressed from the article. Romney made an excellent speech and you cna agree or not. Point he made was all religions have a place in America. You believe in your Ill believe in mine but Business is Business.

Paul, Mike, Rich and AudiR10
Paul, If someones foloows the Bible and believes and takes upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, aren't they saved? Since it is Christ who saves and not you or your preacher, won't He know who His sheep are? So I prefer Christ judging me to you.

AudiR10 and Mike, Ever heard of the Nicean Creed? It is the document that changed the Apostolic Christian belief to the Trinitarian belief and banished the Christian heal beliefs as espoused by the apostles such as Peter, Paul, etc... It was a political and theocratic outcome that decided that the 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 philosophy of man was to be the new doctrine of Christianity in 400 AD by Constantine (the first Pope and a sun worshiper) and founder of the Catholic church years after Peter had been martyred. If the root of the tree of Evangelical trinitarianism came from a creed and a sun worshiper, who is the cult?

Rich L., Harry Reid is both an embarrassment and a waste of oxygen from my perspective, nevertheless, I believe Bill and Hillary and Jimmy Carter were all Baptists and would you use the same rhetoric to indict all Baptists?

Just some thoughts

Bottom line...
People can, will, and should be entitled to vote for a candidate based on whatever factor they want to consider. People vote on candidates based on "how presidential" they act, or look, or how much of a "straight shooter" they are. Of course people are going to vote on a candidate based on there religious faith. I wonder if Mr. Krauthammer would be as enthusiastic about a practising muslim being our president.

False Prophets
Some of the strongest contradictions found in the
"Book of Mormons", which is the given the official
status of the cult's book, are the addition of
some 125 new verses in the New Testament and the
changing of some 1,475 verses in the Bible.


Its a wonder this "Joe" had anytime to revise anything with 60 wives. Sixty wives now if that isn't heaven! So religion does not count? Joe Smith was an obvious lunatic. Its apparent to any thinking being and its there in black and white. With this Mormon non rationale even Charlie Manson seems sane.

Where's common sense? An atheist can see this guy is a quack. It does not take a Christian.

Now what does it say for someone blindly following such a quack. If its total blindness then..............what else might he gullibly believe.


Amend the Constitution
I think conservative Christians should begin to consider working for a constitutional amendment that would allow a religious test for federal office. It's compatible with their political preferences and suits their sensibility. It might even succeed in gaining ratification. While they're at it, they can write the amendment so it asks candidates for federal office if they believe in the Bible. I really think consrvative Christians are missing an opportunity to change our governmental system into something they'd like a whole lot more.

RE: freedom of what?
DeeDee
Plenty of Mormons are themselves denied access to the temple. There are requirements to be met before being granted access. Similar to requirements for getting into a top college. Not just anyone with a pulse can get in. Just like getting a good job. You have to have certain qualifications. Maybe you don't understand that the temple is not an every Sunday worship service. LDS Sunday worship services are open to everyone, member and non-member alike.
The point I'd like to make is that just because the church has strict requirements for entrance into the temple doesn't meant that there is no religious freedom. Everyone is FREE to make the proper preparations and choices to go. They are welcomed and encouraged to take the right steps and attend the temple. I'm not meaning to offend, but what you said is, in my opinion, just a knee-jerk reaction to something you don't quite understand.
p.s. by the time I finished typing this there were already several responses to your post. so this is just my two cents.

AudiR10 OK but
What does you become one with GOD mean? My point is Men defined religious methodology interpreting what they believe GOD wants. If the Mormon's have a different interpretation of what heaven is how can you argue its not what god want on its not what some group of men want.

I agree -- why do we care about Iowa?
Dr. Krauthammer's article may be the best discourse I have heard on the evil of a "religious test" in contemporary American politics, but you can see from the comments that those who favor such a religious test have immunized themselves to their own hypocrisy. Like a previous poster, I would also like to ask why the H we let Iowa get away with this inordinate influence of the political primary process? If this relatively small state is the kind of place that can be swayed by these transparent Huckster tactics -- that is to say, a collection of rubes and/or self-righteous hayseed small-town provincials -- why in the world should we care two figs about their opinions?

hagar
Mormonism is blasphemy as opposed to what, you ask? As opposed to Catholicism or any other Trinitarian Christianity.

Mormonism is pantheistic, for example. Mitt Romney can look forward to becoming a God with a Goddess for a wife, and to creating worlds and populating them and being worshipped by the inhabitants of the world he created and populated.

Funny thing, I don't see that in any Christian religion I have ever studied.

Huckabee/Romney
There is nothing hypocritical about what Huckabee is saying. He is defined by his faith, and there is no way he can accept what the Mormons believe. That being said, As a Christian,who agrees completely on doctrine with Huckabee, I have no problem with Romney being president as a Mormon. That should not be an issue. The issue is, we need good moral, strong, conservative, leadership at this time in history, more than at any time in my life. Hillary, or Obama can not offer what we need. I will support either of them if they run against the liberials who plan on taking us down the road to destruction.

Ignorance is Bliss
After perusing more ignorant commentary, I have decided not to comment on this post either. I will certainly be thankful when the Lord returns to show us all just how ignorant we have been.

divide and conquer
Like the MSM doesn't know the art of war.

hypocritical article
First religion shouldn't matter. But it matters if Huckabee talks about it or doesn't talk about someone elses. It only doesn't matter when it comes to Romney. Hypocritical.

Huckabee made his faith a part of the compain, right fromt the start, it's part of his banner. Faith is listed first. It defines who he is, he lets people know that. Romney is the one who once he brings it up, puts his own faith aside. Ok. It wasn't brilliant. I don't care.

Regardless of what the constition says about a religious test, a candidate can bring up his faith. Which to his credit Huckabee did. He is not making the claim that you must be a Christian to be President. He is saying he is, and it defines who he is. That's good, it tells me a lot about him.

Huck's Hypocrisy
Thanks for a great article! You have expressed my growing frustration with Huck's hypocrisy very well.

David Austin, you obviously haven't been
listening to the left's criticisms of President Bush for his "religious" fervor. You'd think that he has already dictated an evangical restructuring of government.

As to the other Mormon politicians in congress, I don't remember much about most of them, but Harry Reid is the least trustworthy nutjob I have ever seen. But then, he is probably as committed to his religion as he is to the USA. Which is to say for those not briliant enough to figure it out, is zero.

Bob's right
It's not like the President is King. The idea is ludicrous that a President could get away with instituting his religious beliefs on the public. The congress alone wouldn't allow it, not to mention the constitution. You think the ACLU would stand for it?

Gimme a break! Where's John Stossel?

Not sure why Mitt doesn't use
Not sure why Mitt doesn't use the example of all the other LDS politicians who've never mixed their religion with politics. In fact, many of the positions that many of them have held (like abortion) are in direct conflict with the churches stand. Not only is this the best argument that LDS people are NOT brainwashed, but it also goes to prove more than anything else that LDS people are granted a pretty long leash with regard to what they can believe and espouse without condemnation or dissolution from the church and that the official positions of the church have very little bearing on their own individual positions.

Muslim president?
Yes, I would vote for a conservative Muslim, if I knew his platform and agreed with it.(conservative in the political sense) Frankly, I dont fear a muslim president instituting Sharia Law. Seriously, would a predominantly Christian congress allow that? We have the kind of government where we need not worry about such things. Not at this point anyway

Definition of cult
check it out:

http://m-w.com/dictionary/cult

The definition kind of sounds like the Church originally established by Christ at the time of Christ. Strange how some evangelicals use the term as a fighting word.

My understanding was that recently the Southern Baptist Convention recategorized Mormonism as a "new religion" instead of a "cult". Though, like I said I'm not sure why "cult" is a dirty word since the definition perfectly fits the original apostolic Christian church at the time of Christ.

timoteotk
"the VOTER(not the Gvt)CAN use ANY CRITERIA when assesing a candidate for the highest office in the land."

WHAT is wrong with that statement? "

Not a thing at all as individuals but how about parishs and preachers? where does the line get drawn?

"I want to know if Sheik Mohammed, or tom cruise were running for office you say you would not take their personal views into account? A PACK OF LIES!! you would to & furthermore youd SHOULD."

Again I will refer you to the JFK speech something along the lines of: you will consider my performance and past record. The overall person. Religion was kept our of politics for a reason - the founding fathers had escaped a Europe still mired in religious wars and don't forget even in New England we had armed religious battles early on. As one who has seen most of the world's religions actively trying to kill others I KNOW and have SEEN what can happen with religion in politics

DeeDee
You can go into any of the temples before they are dedicated. What you'll see then is pretty much everything that is there after it's dedicated.

Hal Donohue & Hagar
I like the name Hagar but anyone with the name Donohue I question their objectivity..old joke..take it easy...

we plainly differ: I am not saying specific criteria I am saying:

"the VOTER(not the Gvt)CAN use ANY CRITERIA when assesing a candidate for the highest office in the land."

WHAT is wrong with that statement?

I want to know if Sheik Mohammed, or tom cruise were running for office you say you would not take their personal views into account? A PACK OF LIES!! you would to & furthermore youd SHOULD.

paul
"I suggest you do some reading about Islam or suffer the consequences some day....Islam is the Devils work. They are embedded in our Government right up to our Ambassador to the United Nations. They are here to destroy the United States. "

Well I guess you are hopeless. I have not only read about and studied lightly Islam I have lived and/or worked with Muslims in Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Cyprus...shall I go on? You are simply wrong and panicing


HAL
"May I ask if you claim to be a follower of Christ and if yes what do you think he would have done?"

Jesus said there will be false prophets with the most violent,murderous,despicable person ever to walk this earth named Muhammad creating Islam being one of them.

I suggest you do some reading about Islam or suffer the consequences some day.

Muhammad was the "exact opposite" of Jesus Christ.

Islam is the Devils work. They are embedded in our Government right up to our Ambassador to the United Nations. They are here to destroy the United States.

timoteoth you are doing the twisting
Did you actually listen to the speech? He never said the voter cant use any specific criteria. He went to great lengths to explain that the framers did not 1; want a national religion 2; define who from what religion could be president.
I dont understand how, from his speech, you got the idea that the voter couldnt use any criteria they wanted to use.

AGZ
"All this arguing over religious belief is a waste of time...."

I wish that was all it was - it can be down right dangerous

How quickly we forget...
The Romans considered Christianity a cult.

All this arguing over religious belief is a waste of time. Excuse me while I go have a cigarette and a cup of coffee. And, when I get home, I'm renaming my cat, Mohammed.

Tryor, you have to be kidding, right?
They let anyone in, after a 1 year apprenticeship. What a hoot! Try going into just about any protestant church and you may find winos, smokers, and people in such a bad way that most undecerning people would define them as bums. Yet they are welcome as long as they are not disruptive.

As to Romney, his "religion" is not the main issue that I have with him. He is a slick politician first and I don't trust him to stick to his new positions that he conveniently switched to for this election cycle. Eleventh hour conversions are suspect from anyone, let alone a politician. He reminds way too much of a used car salesman.

As to McCain, Guiliani or Thompson not figuring out how to use the religion card or being too decent. Only Thompson strikes me as being too decent. Guiliani simply can't use it as he can't be trusted any more than Mitt can. McCain, I don't think has ever mentioned religion and therefore the subject would be inappropriate for him at this stage.

What would Mitt Do?
What if the present Grand head of Mormonism reinstates Polygamy" anytime in the next four years. What would Mitt Do?
The Mormon Cult - The Customs
Some of the salient customs and beliefs of the
Mormons aside from the coming of the Jesus Christ
are found in the practice of polygamy, as also
followed by its leader Joseph Smith who is said to
have had some 27 wives officially and 60
unofficially. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ
The Second Coming of Jesus Christ as believed by
the Mormons is that He will return at a time when
all Jews are gathered in Palestine. At that
particular moment of time, all followers of the
Mormon cult will be called and gathered in
Missouri and judgement duly announced.

Will Mitt vacate the White House?
. The Mormons believe that
there are numerous gods, and that individuals too
can become gods.
Will the Mormons make Mitt a god and how will he react.

You have to open the Book(The Book of Mormon) to see what is inside.






Liberals Win
When fervid Born-Again Christians run on the social issues the Democrats win. Huckster-Bee's skin-crawling religious maneuvers might appeal to the anti-Mormon intolerance of hard-core Christian voters but there is another, bigger intolerance that stalks the land, one which I and many other fiscal, national defence and foreign policy Republicans share; an intolerance for excessive Bible-banging by political hacks to garner votes. In California (my home state) the hard-core zealots, by making issues like abortion, Creationism and the right to own a houseful of machine guns the front burner issues have turned this formerly Republican state into a clone of Oregon or Massachusetts. When The Governator put four ballot referendums up for a vote that would have hamstrung the liberals and changed the face of politics in this state the Bible crowd and the Border Psychotics stayed home nursing their one-issue grudges and showed Arnold that he had to move to the left to get re-elected. Huckster-Bee or Mutt Romney (with all their fake piety) at the head of the ticket will be an electoral disaster for Republicans all over the country. The Bible-Bangers will get the Stalinist Supreme Court and public funding for abortion that they deserve.

timoteotk
"STOP TWISTING ARTICLE 6 of the CONSTITUTION!!!!!!! "

Did you listen to or read JFK's speech?

poorgrandchildren
" I would never vote for a Muslim whether Islam is a cult or just a gang of murdering, torturing, lying, sexist thugs who certainly can not be trusted to honor their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, even to the limited extent exhibited by our current batch of politicians. Islam is one religion that does matter to me. "

LMAO that says it all thank you. May I ask if you claim to be a follower of christ and if yes what do you think he would have done?

Article V1 being TWISTED
Article 6 of the constitution is being twisted- it says the GOVERNMENT CANNOTmake a religious test to run for office. NOT THE VOTER!!!!The VOTER CAN(and should) use ANY criteria they want when determining who they will cast their vote for!!!. People use Irreligious criteria just as much as people use Religious criteria and that is their right in a democratic society!!!! Get over yourselves and stop TWISTING the constitution!!!!!

I guarantee you if Sheik mohammed or Tom Cruise of Sheik mohammed ran for the highest office in the land most of you hypocrites would take pause, and take their views on EVERTHING & ANYTHING into account before you pulled the lever. What a pack of lies if you say you wouldn't STOP TWISTING ARTICLE 6 of the CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!

Anthony Thomas
I am not Paul, but I would never vote for a Muslim whether Islam is a cult or just a gang of murdering, torturing, lying, sexist thugs who certainly can not be trusted to honor their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, even to the limited extent exhibited by our current batch of politicians. Islam is one religion that does matter to me. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

media wants it both ways
what a bunch of bs-Fact is Huckabee was being asked Question after question about his faith from the media-(WAY more bias against him than than Romney due to his past experience as a pastor) before he ran the ad to acknowledge this is who I am- so as not to dodge it and hit it head on...you CANNOT win with these media types...he was doing well in the polls long before his ad or Romneys interestingly timed speeech-(when his poll numbers were going down). Obviously Krauthammer has an axe to grind.This speech by Romney needed to be given by someone in some ways regardless. Someone needed to address the growing "religion" of secularism. For this I salute Mr. Romney. This is at the heart of why Krauthamer is so offended. They have no problem when people mix God's name in with all the curses of the day but anything else is offensive.
Fact is Huckabee has said "I don't care if you are an atheist, as long as you are true to who you are...and not trying to be who you are not..I am who I am"...

paul
"It will be a cold day in hades before I would vote for a Muslim"


Why?

"Religion in todays world of the death cult of Islam does matter"

Are you calling Islam a cult?


My religion is better than yours
My Dad can kick your Dads Butt. Know what that sounds like? Bunch of kids. The Creator must be laughing. All formal religions mine included were defined by men. These men ALL think they know God better than the others. Got news for you it doesnt matter what Methodology you follow or where or how you pray. Its whats in your hearts that counts. There are good people and bad people in all religions and that include the seclarists and atheists.

Constitutional duties
All members of the Senate swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Are there any intimations that anything has corrupted, distorted, and diminished their ability to perform their constitutional duties?
How about the following unconstitutional actions for starters:

Federal Department of Education and Indoctrination (Amendment 10)
McCain-Feingold attack on freedom of political speech
Socialism Security Ponzi Scheme
Allowing our constitutional republic to degenerate into a de-mob-ocracy
Existing and proposed government control of health care
Getting votes and kick backs with deals for poor people and rich corporations

http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

One big difference
between the two candidates is that Mitt is not "playing the religion card" (in fact, he is trying hard to avoid it while talking about WOT, taxes, immigration, etc) while Huckabee is doing little BUT playing the religion card.

I used to like Huckabee a lot, based on little other than his likeability. The more I researched him, however, the less I liked him. He is very soft on issues that matter most to me -- illegal immigration, amnesty for illegals, spending and taxation.

At the same time, I don't agree with people who believe this "my faith defines me" pap. Huckabee is rising in the polls BECAUSE he talks about his faith so much and so often. You can't read or watch a Huckabee interview where he isn't interjecting his faith into every other question. Maybe there are a lot of people who find this attractive in a candidate, but I don't and I won't vote for him in the primary.

AudiR10 I was surprised by your
comment. "and because the Mormon religion is blasphemy." vs what?

paul
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Ref erence+Desk/Speeches/Speeches+of+John+F.+Kennedy.htm

Just listen to the speech it is 11 minutes long and does sum up the beliefs of our fathers and forefathers

What If Mitt were a Muslim?
It will be a cold day in hades before I would vote for a Muslim.

Religion in todays world of the death cult of Islam does matter.

If Mormons believe the world is going to end in 2010 it matters because Mitt will let it rip.

charlie
"You must have seen the polling on the "vast" US Muslim population regarding their endorsements of terror through violent acts; is this simply something you don't care to mention? Not that I believe two wrongs make a right, but I am sick and tired of Christians being singled out for slanders."

There is no slander. Where is the religious outrage at the above? Where is it? Moderate Christians don't speak out because of what? Fear of vile right wing attacks? Lack of conviction or interest? I have no clue but they are not speaking out in any meaningful fashion.

Now you mention Islam sadly in Islam right now if the moderates speak out they and their family could be killed. Not a defense of their silence at all but an observation. I am talking about US Christians nothing else. What do I believe? Go to the Kennedy Library and listen to JFK's speech to Greater Houston Ministerial Association in 1960.

Christian and Conservative
The U.S. is not, nor should it ever be a theocracy. No Christian I know wants it that way. As a Christian myself, I don't. The Bible speaks to Christ's return and his kingdom. That's enough for me. I am concerned about where the candidates stand with regards to the Constitution and will vote accordingly. This shouldn't be an issue. Take what the candidates say and match it with what they've done, and cast your vote. Would I prefer someone who is serious about their faith? Yes, as I think faith gives one a strong base from which to chart their decisions in life. Does that me I wouldn't vote for an atheist? No, it doesn't. I will vote for whoever I feel best upholds the Constitution and it's intent. My 1st amendment rights to free speech and freedom of Religion are important to me. Whoever upholds the Constitutions intent is who will get my vote.

Best Article Yet
As a card-carrying Mormon living a stone's throw from the Church's HQ in Salt Lake City, this article gets my vote for "Best Article" about Romney's Mormonism and Huckabee's exploitation of anti-Mormon bigotry.

(Though it should have mentioned that a Mormon, Mike Leavitt, is 9th in line of succession to the Presidency.)

If the Iowans vote to nominate Huckabee they will only put their status as a course-setting primary state in jeopardy.

Because of all the attention that Huckabee has cleverly garnered by his stealth campaign to leverage anti-Mormon bigotry, everyone now believes that if Huckabee wins it will ONLY be because of bigoted "Evangelical Christians" in Iowa.

If Iowans drink the Huckabee Kool-Aid they're going to be in for a shock they will not recover from.

People will stop looking at Iowa as just a Midwestern state of typical Americans and will begin to question why we are letting a little insignificant state overflowing with bigoted hayseed hicks set the direction for the nation in anything -- let alone the election of the President.

"Who do Iowans think they are anyway?" will be the thought on people's minds if they vote for Huckabee.

Forget the fact that we all have suddenly become aware that Iowa seems to be too populated with ignorant "Evangelical Christians" who still believe 100-year-old tired and ridiculous myths about our very mainstream Christian beliefs, the only thing we ever see Iowa doing is robbing our taxes through demands for this and that farm subsidy ad nauseum. Oh, and pushing for the very reckless and ruinous pursuit to force the country to put liquid Iowan corn in our gas tanks.

Romney rocks (though my vote is for Rudy Gulianni) and Huckabee is acting just like another Slick Willy Bubba from the Walmart State.

It's Iowa that we ought to start asking questions about.

Beliefs....
...I truly do not care what a candidates beliefs about religion are.I care what his beliefs about how the United States should be governed from the perspective of the Presidency.Why do so many people get involved in religious informal tests for the White House? What an anti-intellectual pursuit during a presidential campaign.Do you care what his,or any candidates,beliefs are regarding who is going to win the Super Bowl this year? Me neither.

While we are discussing Romney's personal beliefs in religion (or any other candidates),what are his beliefs on health care? War on terror? Oil dependency? Relationship with Europe? etc,etc,etc? With 220 years of expierience behind us in presidential candidates,is this really the best discussion we can come up with? If so,then we are a silly people!

Hal Donahue
Hey Hal, I assume you consider yourself to be moderate and not an extremist. (smirk)

Consider three politicians: Ted Kennedy, Joe Leiberman and Trent Lott. Of those three guys, which do you consider to be closest to middle of the road? My guess is it's Ted Kennedy.

Hal Donahue
At 7:36 AM, you posted what must account for the most ridiculous rant I've ever had the misfortune to read on these boards.
"a vast throng of Christians" is casting a VERY wide net. You must have seen the polling on the "vast" US Muslim population regarding their endorsements of terror through violent acts; is this simply something you don't care to mention? Not that I believe two wrongs make a right, but I am sick and tired of Christians being singled out for slanders.

Where are the moderates
Somehow in the United States, a vast throng of Christians became so extreme as to endorse torture, kidnapping, executions and that is far from all. This mutant strain goes further abandoning the poor, ignoring the sick and forsaking peace.

Hermione
I would give Huckabee a break for that too, but I hope conservatives will work with Mormons against atheism, and not assume that we are all on different sides.

Also, I like Huckabee as a person, but I do NOT like his financial policies. I think he would be a decent president, but I would rather have someone more committed on fiscal conservatism.

Religious test for president
I will simply disagree with Dee Dee's comments about allowing everyone into the Mormon Temples since Tryor answered her very well. But I will take exception to Mike's comments about cults and the orthodoxy of the Christian religion. Mike wrote:

"By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith."

But he apparently does not understand that the so called Christian orthodoxy was derived from two or three centuries of vehemenent, sometimes violent, discourse between various factions competing to establish the basic tenets of the faith. Not a few of those contenders were political entities rather than theologians or followers of Christ's own doctrines. What was finally established was a COMPROMISE. It became "orthodoxy" only by centuries of practice. For many of those centuries the common man was not even allowed to read or see the documents that later became part of the Bible because they were protected by the Catholic Church and only the Priesthood was allowed access to them.

So if the Mormons are not exactly "orthodox" that might not be such a bad thing.

He means what he says
The real problem with most secularists and nominal Christians is that they cannot believe that people who are devout really mean what they say when they say that their religion is the bedrock on which they base their lives. This is why they persist in believing that the Jihadis *do not really mean it* when they talk about exterminating Israel or even when they kill actual Jews.

Because Mr. Romney says that his religion is the bedrock of his life and that he means every word of it, I do him the honour of believing he speaks the truth -- and thus that his religion WOULD influence his actions in office, just as my own would influence mine. If you can stick your religion in a box and only take it out when its convenient, it does not influence your life.

I will pray for his conversion, but I will not vote for him, because I have been a Mormon and I do him the honour of believing that he is telling the truth -- and because the Mormon religion is blasphemy.

Mormonism's Not the Problem
Huckabee's strategy, as I see it, is not merely to distinguish himself from Romney, but to distinguish himself from the growing movement toward atheism in this country. Many of us are worried about that movement and think it could eventually spell the end of our great nation. Forty years ago, when Romney's father ran for governor, he had no need to give "the speech." Religion wasn't an issue in politics, because almost everyone HAD religion. There was little need for a candidate to proclaim his eligion, as Huckabee's now doing, because everyone just assumed he believed it God (and Judeo-Christian morality, by extension). Things are very different today. I understand why Huckabee's playing the religion card, and I don't fault him for it.

More Media Double Standards
What I find offensive about the media's fixation on Romney's faith, is how it contrasts with their blase attitude regarding the first Muslim elected to Congress last year, Keith Ellison. I seem to recall their saying in so many words that we should not under any circumstances read anything into his demand that he be sworn in on a Koran rather than a Bible. And yet in his case, Glenn Beck was absolutely right to have called his loyalties into question - especially, in one clear example, with the whole "flying imams" flap whereby Rep. Ellison took the side of the imams against the airline passengers who reported their suspicious behavior - and then was among those who violently opposed Rep. Peter King's "John Doe" passenger protection bill from such lawsuits as what the imams had attempted.

Private Beliefs v Public Policies
Our American Constitution (ARTICLE VI) rejects a religious test, as Dr Charles Krauthammer, in his typical accurate telling, points out. That being re-said, lets get to the heart, head and hands of the messy issue: Private Beliefs versus Public Policies. Others have written well, especially in the midst and aftermath of the Clinton-Lewinsky-Hillary era scandal that "Character Counts." Why was this obvious point, "character's core," at the epicenter of debate in the messy marketplace of vision and values? Because a sitting POTUS averred his "private" behaviors did not (and would not?) impact his policies. Follow me, please readers. As I said, it is messy, murky and muddled. Try this truth statement: BELIEF BEGETS BEHAVIOR! If the Clinton's believe that obfuscation is appropriate in order to achieve power, at what point do we American citizens recognize our government and its leader(s) can not be trusted, even when they are like us and represent us? I reverently and fervently pray the She'ma daily (for the unOrthodox among us, that is more commonly known as the Greatest Commandment that Yeshua (Jesus) Himself quoted as the Central Command of Torah, Prophets and Wisdom Writings.)You should aver from that thrice daily practice that the She'ma is a core belief of mine and therefore affects my behavior, both private and public. However presidential former MA Governor Mitt Romney appeared and sounded (who could not with the setting and Seal of President of the United States of America behind him and before him?) yesterday, the main Mormon question remains. In what public policy ways does his private Mormon belief inform, influence and inspire him, and thus will impact the administration of the United States of America government? "River Rising Review - The Venue for Vision and Values in Our communities" has created Four Friendly Forums For you ... join us at EUKEL.us

Ok so religion
is not an issue with Mr. Krauthammer. Is his intent that religion shouldn't be an issue with anyone? Look Mr. Krauthammer, religion to a secular man is an irritation to others it is their salvation.

Huck's religious pander is an embarrassm
What a contrast between Huckabee and Romney.

Huck is playing up his religion in Iowa commercials "CHRISTIAN LEADER" text in bold and "My faith defines me" are spoon feeding his newfound base (many of which were just looking for any reason not to vote for a Mormon)

For LOTS more evidence of how Huck is playing his religion care too strong see this post:

http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/2007/12/preponderance- of-evidence-mitt-romney.html

BTW, Romney's speech was absolutely masterful and moving.

How can this man not become our President? He looks and "feels" born for such leadership.

See Romney's speech here:
http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/2007/12/speech.html

v


guilt by association
Mormonism is a cult by the pure definition of the word regarding Christianity.

"By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith."


Unfortunately Jefferson's Providence nor Washington's Great Author nor Lincoln's Almighty hear the prayer of a mormon since they are crying out to a different god than the God of the Bible.

I think Gov Romney would make a fine President.

I also think that if I want to vote for a Christian for President is perfectly fine too. But according to many commentators I am somehow a bigot for actually believing in my faith and acting on it. Do you think any mormons will be voting for canidates because they are mormon.?Women voting for women?? I like the tall good looking type so Gov Romney is in my top three.

If Gov Romney gets the nomination just wait for the Al Sharpton's of the dem party talk about the racist history (into the 1980's) of the mormon church. Guilt by association? I am only bringing this up because we are not allowed to bring up theological differences of the mormon religion and Christianity because it is un-american right??

Dee Dee
You've got to be kidding, right?
I can just see the Mormon Church, in order to placate people, they could allow anyone in the temple, smokers, drinkers, the profane, gamblers, prostitutes, politicians :). It would soon be ill-suited for the purposes for which they are built. They are sanctuaries for learning eternal truths, not public arenas for holding up sacred issues to be made fun of. Do you think Jesus was a hypocrit for cleansing the temple in Jerusalem of the money changers. Not everyone was permitted in the temple during Jesus' time.

Any one can go into the temples. There are just a few preliminary steps they need to take: such as baptism, paying 10% of their income in tithing, refraining from alcohol and tobacco, attending church every Sunday, and all this for a year before you go in. But..everyone is welcome.

Ignorance
I thought Mitt delivered a fine speech. He resolved my concerns about how his Mormonism would inform his presidency. After all, he is right when he says that he is running for commander-in-chief not pastor-in-chief (like some out there who assert their credentials to become president because they are a "Christian leader"). Mitt is obviously a man of much conviction and recognizes that the oath of the president is to uphold the Constitution - not the Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Q'ran or even his Book of Mormon. As he stated the president is to serve the common cause of the entire nation: e pluribus unum.

And as for his church's supposed hypocrisy about not letting people who are not Mormon into their temples, not even all Mormons are permitted to go. I have a friend who is Mormon who indicates that a person has to be a practicing Mormon who tries to abide by the tenets of their faith. So, while anyone, Mormon or otherwise, can attend church services at a local church meeting house, they hold members of their church to a higher standard for entering the temple. Many churches do something like this, e.g., performing weddings for those who actually "believe" in what their church teaches. A novel concept yes, hypocrisy no.

Freedom of what?
If Mitt's religion (Mormonism) consistently deny non-Mormons into their temple -- where is the "Freedom" of "Religion" to that regard?

What a hypocrite.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.