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Friday, May 11, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Giuliani and abortion
by Charles Krauthammer
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Legalizing abortion by judicial fiat (Roe v. Wade) instead of by democratic means has its price. One is that the issue remains socially unsettled. People take to the streets when they have been deprived of resort to legislative action.

The other effect is to render the very debate hopelessly muddled. Instead of discussing what a decent society owes women and what it owes soon-to-be-born infants, and trying to balance the two by politically hammering out regulations that a broad national consensus can support, we debate the constitutional niceties of a 35-year-old appallingly crafted Supreme Court decision.

Just how tangled the issue gets is illustrated by the current brouhaha over Rudy Giuliani's abortion response in the first Republican presidential debate. Spokesmen for the other candidates have gleefully seized upon what they deem to be Giuliani's gaffe -- not only defying Republican orthodoxy but appearing to want to have it every which way.

On repealing Roe v. Wade:

Giuliani: It would be OK to repeal. It would be also (OK) if a strict constructionist judge viewed it as precedent and I think a judge has to make that decision.

Moderator: Would it be OK if they didn't repeal it?

Giuliani: I think the court has to make that decision and then the country can deal with it. ... states can make their own decisions.

Giuliani's response has been almost universally characterized as a blundering two-way pander. I think not. I've actually heard Giuliani elaborate his position on abortion. His debate answer is an overly concise version of it, which makes it so open to ridicule.

Democrats are pro-choice and have an abortion litmus test for judges they would nominate to the Supreme Court. Giuliani is pro-choice but has no such litmus test. The key phrase in his answer is ``strict constructionist judge.'' On judicial issues in general he believes in ``strict constructionism,'' the common conservative view that we don't want judges citing penumbral emanations and other constitutional vapors to justify inventing new rights they fancy the country needs.

However, one strict constructionist might look at Roe v. Wade as the constitutional travesty it is and decide to repeal it. Another strict constructionist judge could, with equal conviction, decide that after 35 years the habits and mores shaped by Roe v. Wade are so engrained in society that it should not be overturned.

And there is precedent for strict constructionists accepting even bad constitutional rulings after the passage of time. The most famous recent example is Chief Justice William Rehnquist for years opposing the original 1966 Miranda ruling as ``legislating from the bench," but upholding it in 2000 on the grounds that it had become so engrained in American life that its precedental authority trumped its bastard constitutional origins. (He used different words.)

In a country with a rational debate about abortion, Giuliani would simply have been asked how he would regulate (up to and including banning) abortion. That's not a relevant question here because neither presidents nor legislatures nor referendums decide this. Judges do. All presidents do is appoint judges.

Giuliani's answer on how to go about picking such judges is perfectly reasonable. It appears to be a dodge about the abortion issue itself simply because -- thanks to Roe -- every such debate becomes tangled with otherwise irrelevant issues of constitutional doctrine and stare decisis.

To give you an idea of how muddied the abortion debate has become thanks to this gratuitous constitutional overlay, consider the recent Supreme Court decision upholding the ban on partial-birth abortion. It has been misread by partisans on both sides. Pro-choice advocates denounced it as the beginning of a gradual cutting back on abortion rights. Pro-lifers celebrated it for precisely that reason.

It is nothing of the kind. The only reason the court upheld the ban is because an alternative (far more commonly used, in fact) to this mid-to-late-term procedure is readily available. Hence no ``undue burden'' on the woman. Hence it respects the confines of existing abortion jurisprudence. Roe (and its successors) lives.

I hope for the day when Roe is overturned, not because I want to see abortion criminalized -- I once voted in a Maryland referendum to keep abortion legal if Roe is ever repealed -- but to sweep away this ridiculous muddle. Perhaps Giuliani should have said something like that rather than leaving the precedent question up to judges. Abortion is already so contaminated with legalisms, why not turn the issue into one of simple democracy? Let the people decide. Let them work it out the way everything else in this country is worked out -- by political argument and legislative accommodation.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Giuliai's claim
he would appoint strict constuctionist judges to SCOTUS is a joke. His idea of strict construction is repeal the 2nd amendment, for starters? Just another bait and switch RINO.

Waving the Bloody Shirt
Gee, can Charles Krauthammer be suggesting that Rudy's approach is superior to those people who are doing the modern equivalent of "waving the bloody shirt" and seeking to exploit abortion issues for political gain? Perish the thought!

The following is an excerpt from a column I wrote today (click on name above)


All too often, my fellow conservatives -- and I've also been guilty -- take positions that are emotionally satisfying but politically devastating. They tend to dismiss any candidates they disagree with -- and that turns out to be every candidate who conceivably could win against Hillary Clinton.

Roe v. Wade became the law of the land more than a generation ago. The conservative response has been irresponsible in the extreme. It turned into an "all-or-nothing" approach -- one that refused any compromise -- and it ended up not with ALL but with something resembling NOTHING.

The way to deal with abortion was -- and is -- to chip away at it. The alternative to that approach isn't the elimination of abortion but the maintenance of the satus quo. When winning a battle -- military or political -- you don't attack at the enemy's strongest fortifications. You attack at his weakest point, which happened in the case of the horrifying procedure known as partial-birth abortion.

We conservatives tend to wildly overestimate the significance of Roe v. Wade.

In fact, what would happen if, next week, the Supreme Court voted 5-4 against Roe? Would that end abortion? No, it would not. It would oveturn Roe, but it would do little else.

Abortion would continue as it is now. In fact, all 50 states would have to come up with their own laws about the matter. Some of those states, including places like New York, California, Illinois, New Jersey, and Massachusetts -- in fact, most of the highly populated Blue states -- presumably would come up with liberal abortion laws.

Others, particularly smaller states in the South and West, would have relatively restrictive laws -- we think. Thus, in states where a majority of Americans live, abortion would go on pretty much as it does now. It would be "safe" (except for embryos), legal, and frequent.

Since the Court isn't about to overturn Roe v. Wade -- and very possibly, never will in our lifetimes -- what are we to do about the situation? The answer doesn't lie in shouting more slogans and churning out ever-more-creative bumper stickers.







guilliani + issues
anyone that thinks an unborn fetus (especially in the 1st trimester) is a CHILD.. I challenge you to buy a lot in Florida, drop a pile of lumber on the property and try and collect home owners insurance on your unbuilt home when a tornado inevitably blows it away.



Being pro-choiceish Guilliani caught my attention. He's no angel, but he's not a total scum. He gets stuff done within a crooked system. I admire the fact that he's more centrist than most of the republican candidates and wish him good luck with his campaign.

Regarding abortion.. Frankly, rape goes underreported and under punished in this country and its totally wrong to expect a woman to endure the psychological torture of being a WALKING CRIME SCENE for 9 months and then live under the shadow of doubt for the rest of her life on whether her rape-baby is going to visit her as an adult and confront her. I will never support a candidate who thinks that a woman is just some baby-breeding object to be regulated ... like some agricultural animal. Whats next? A legally licensed womb? That's like a band of women deciding to limit men's access to viagra, because the majority of us are creeped out about old guys boning grannies.

Old men with no wombs have no business passing laws on women's health issues. Likewise, I dont support women passing laws on whether a man can access adequete health care for their prostates or ED issues. I think that's fair.

Dawn Eden parody of Giuliani on abortion
I can't recall how I stumbled onto this, but it's a hoot! http://www.dawneden.com/2007/05/guest-post-giuliani-i-hate-giving-to.html

Lex
I have no idea. I learned how little I know about SC candidates when Bush nominated Miers. Like just about everyone else, I was reacting on others' reactions. But the word is that if the court was to absorb one more constructionist, it would probably be a 6-3 court because Stevens tends to go with the majority opinion. But I really don't know. The "jury" is still out on Alito and Roberts because they haven't had the opportunity to demonstrate that they will perform as expected. The both agreed that "stare decisis" applies to Roe v. Wade. Let's see what they say once they have to rule on it. I believe Roe v. Wade's days are numbered even with this court.

Dangerous Dave,
stop impugning "neocons" as you call them or me. I happen to be pro life and will not support Rudy because of this issue. Rudy has already self-desetructed an dthe GOP cannot have him at the top of the ticket. He is enthrall to NARAL and Planned Parenthood. Being "personally opposed" but thinking it should be an option is like not owning a slave but having no problem if you do. But stop the "neocon" bashing - you sound like a bigot and a racist.

Drifting back onto subject,
Pasadena Phil, what are the odds that any Supreme Court nominee that Bush MIGHT make prior to his leaving the WH (presumably without any of the china) would EVER pass muster with the Pro-aborts on the Senate Judiciary Committee? They got burned by Roberts and Alito, and won't make that mistake again, but oh, in what low regard do they now hold Justice Kennedy, that traitor!

Even so, mehtinks that the "lax constructionist" Gang of Four that remains on the bench would rather die in their overstuffed chairs than give Bush another shot at OVERTURNING HOLY WRIT, I mean, ditching Roe v. Wade for the work of penumbraic darkness that it is.

Apologies to DavidMac
I confused two posts, yours with will's. It appears that he's the self-identified gay man, and a bit miffed with the Repubs for not championing whatever the GLBT agenda happens to be. As to your question of what makes GLBT folks different than people who engage in bestiality and pedophilia, perhaps will has an answer for you. I don't.

we've drifted way off subject here
Krauthammer's point was that Roe V. Wade should be revoked for no other reason than it would allow us to re-engage in the discussion that was interrupted in 1973. I posted a related essay "Reflections on Abortion and Cream Pies" at my blog last night. I wish I had posted it Thursday.

http://thewayweare.townhall.com/g/f41219da-b9d4-4836-ab5b-0ce6316234e9

Roy
True. True. That could come back to haunt him & the Reps chances. Think I'll reconsider. As far as I know, Romney is 60 years of squeaky clean. He could be the one.

Lex
O.K., Lex, so you're a homo. Big deal.

You posted, "there's no chance that a child of yours would be in such jeopardy, right?"

If my kid was a homo, I'd tell him that was his problem, not mine.

You homos hold yourselves out as superior to heterosexuals, simply because you have abnormal sexual desires. Why does that make you different than, say, people who engage in bestiality or pedophilia?

Will
You posted, "your party has managed to completely turn me off by your irrational fears & hatreds of gays."


I have no fear, irrational or otherwise, regarding homos.

You people want "special rights" based on the fact that you have abnormal sex (i.e., with others who have the same sex you have).

What kind of distinction is that? You homos are using the fact that you are abnormal sexually to DEMAND special rights. That doesn't instill fear in me, only anger.


Birth control abortion- - a new slavery
It's just enslaving the next generation...as is enbryonic research. They are too small, too helpless, and they don't become protected till they breathe air.

So what of the former fetuses who survived?
I.e. the children of the baby boomers (the first BIG abortion generation)

Well, maybe in 20 years, those of us in the baby boomer gen who are too feeble to keep alive
....will probably be "terminated" by someone who phrases murder of the inconvenient (expensive to care for old people) in positive language...
And somewhere some old Nazi concentration doctors will laugh at the irony...

"stare decisis"
I am not a lawyer nor in any way qualified to render opinions on law but in researching the concept of "stare decisis", I discovered the definition of the term as “stand by decisions and do not move that which is quiet". I take that to mean that judges should create issues where none exist. The problem is that if not all is quiet, as has been the case since the Roe v. Wade edict was issued, then "stare decisis" is invalid. In order for settled law to be settled, shouldn't there be a consensus? How can it be settled if we are still fighting over it?

I have a post going up tomorrow morning on this very subject that I wish I had posted yesterday since it arrives at the same conclusion Krauthammer in a different way. And it ends with a good link to a cream pie attack.

To DavidMac, self identified gay man
No offense intended with my question to lilly, but the question has to have crossed your mind? Of course, there's no chance that a child of yours would be in such jeopardy, right? It's a bisexual thing.

Gunny LOL
I love it, "Rudy is as useful as a condomn with the tip cut off".

I can't believe people in our own conservative party is trying to explain away (spin away) the liberalism in the three liberal media deemed "top-tier" Republican candidates. It's insanity at best.

Ron Paul has my vote in the primaries and general.

If Repubs nominate any of these so called "top-tier" candidates, I will never vote for Repubs again. Republican Party will be in shambles. I will be forced to look for a party that is more conservative.

I can't vote for the lesser of two liberal evils anymore.

A question for lilly
If science discovers a gay gene, or cluster of genes that predispose gayness, would aborting such children qualify as a hate crime?

To paraphrase, if left-wingers think they are going to to force all Americans to raise GLBT children when modern science can avert such a situation, I expect they are going to run into a hard fight...Sometimes God's mistakes must be acknowledged--there are some children who simply should not be born.

Abortion of Impaired Baby?
I have seen three articles in the past week gushing about how wonderful it is to have a Downs Syndrome child so I assume there is a right-wing agenda to make "Don't abort Downs Syndrome" the next step after the late-term abortion victory. And I believe yesterday there was something on townhall about cystic fibrosis, going after the American Academy of OB-GYNs for warning parents pregnant with a CF child that the difficult way ahead of them should be considered very carefully.

Whether a child has Downs or cystic fibrosis or schizophrenia or some other devastating disease, to knowingly allow such a child to be born is to volunteer that child for suffering. Inevitably the right picks a happy, successful example with a supportive family and good community support, but the reality is often otherwise. Chronically ill children do suffer. Their siblings often suffer too. The parents' marriage often breaks up because of tensions around the ill child and his effects on the family. Expenses are huge and are not always covered by insurance. Community facilities have been disappearing since Reagan. I find it hard to understand how people can be so selfish as to inflict a life of suffering on a child so that they themselves may glory in having brought an impaired child into the world.

If right-wingers think they are going to force all Americans to raise impaired children when modern medicine can avert such a situation, I expect they are going to run into a hard fight. All endings are not happy. Sometimes God's mistakes must be acknowledged---there are some children who simply should not be born. We have judgment and free will to make those decisions.

Rudy - No!
I would like to vote for a Republican in 2008, but doubt if I can vote for Giuliani. The abortion issue is less important to me than his personality - he can be a tyrant - and his personal life.

It's probably true that most Americans aren't troubled these days by his three marriages, and especially how he paraded his girlfriend publicly while still married to his second wife. I ask you: what kind of role model is that? What message does that send to our young people as we try our best to have some moral decency and even simple manners in a nation where both have taken a beating? His two children are alienated from him. What message does all this send to the world, where US morality already is a major cause of mistrust and disdain? If he should be elected president, I for one will be ashamed of him.

And, ask the NY City firemen what they think of Rudy - and his record re 9/11. Yes, he did have flair and that was important under the circumstances. And he did some good things as mayor. But find out what the firemen think of his handling of the fire dept before 9/11. Instructive.


Hustler: Dude
The point is that Bush is totally irrelevant to this conversation. He is not, I say NOT, running for President.

Giuliani is; Hillary is. Hence my likening of Giuliani to Hillary.

Your original comment was a non sequitur.


Rudy
BrianR:
Don’t credit me with something I did not say. As I read your original post I took your words to mean Rudy was pretending to be a conservative. So did Bush. I am not one who needs five hundred words to describe a toothpick. If you did not get, you could ask.
You are absolutely correct however, it is not funny that many seem to keep buying what politicians are selling. As for the comparison, OK he’s not a bald Bush. He is however of the same stripe in my book. Perhaps a little more honest.

Will
You posted, "Unelectable republicans: Ron Paul (I like the guy though, he makes sense to this liberal) . . ."


If you LIKE Ron Paul because he makes sense to you, then you must be for securing the borders, getting rid of illegal aliens, and defending the 2nd amendment. Strange stuff for a liberal to be for . . .





No Border Security/No Homeland Security
We can't be serious about fighting terrorism with the back door wide open. The Fort Dix six proves that. The lack of enforcement of immigration laws and borders is inextricably intertwined with the issue of terrorism.

will
Ok, so much for Rudy's statement that he believed that abortion is a states' right issue, eh?

The man also is pro-amnesty and anti-gun.

He should move over to the socialist party, because that's what he is. BIG government all the way.

stonesean... is almost right
*IF* we deal with "the ONLY issue we need to be concerned about right now, Terrorism."

THEN "The rest of this stuff can be debated another day."

When dealt with out of order... game over.

Only one reason to vote for Rudy
From what I have seen so far, I plan on voting for Rudy in the Republican Primary.

Of course that is so far away, that I might have to change my mind at some point, but that is where I stand now.

The reason I plan on voting for him is because he seems to have the best grasp of the ONLY issue we need to be concerned about right now, Terrorism.

If people think that we as Americans have the luxury to debate Roe v. Wade right now, then we probably don't stand much of a chance against our real enemies anyway.

The rest of this stuff can be debated another day.

Beyond Democracy
I'm always interested in what Mr. Krauthammer has to say on any subject, but I was a little surprised at his concluding paragraph in which he calls for the abortion issue to be decided by "simple democracy", i.e. political argument and legislative accommodation. The only governmental entity that can "undo" Roe is the one responsible for the present law, the Supreme Court of the United States. Mayor Giuliani goes to the heart of correcting this problem when he calls for the appointment of strict constructionist judges. He does not pretend that he as President could directly change what is for the time being constitutional law.

Will
You're incorrect. You should read more widely on TH, & not limit yourself to the "red meat" stuff.

There's no better site in the US than TH for good healthy political debate. If there is, can you direct me?

Uh, Will,
This has exactly what to do with the discussion?

Talk about absolute and total irrelevance.


Learn to pick your fights... or loose.
I thought at the level of President of The United States, the ideals of the Republican party were (in my own order of importance):

1- Strong on defense (particularly against those using kids to blow us up).

2- Reducing the Government's interest in my pocket.

3- Reducing the Government's interest in my life.

I'm not an anarchist, and i realize the Government needs to be there to maintain order. So telling me that i will have to pay a fine if i discriminate against people of a specific group makes sense. But, it's nuts to dictate exactly how many of which group i must hire, enroll, accept, etc.

Lest we consume each other, we DO need a fair and balanced Government. But, the situation is such that the pendulum needs to swing back in the direction of less Governance.

With the less Government is better Government pillar of the Republican party, i find it natural that such a party should include many people who are pro-"it's your womb leave the Federal Government out of it".

Surely there should be rules. But a "never" rule deteriorates in practice to something closer to an "always" rule. And both such rules often lead to anarchy.

So please keep your focus. And remember that there are some in this world that advocate late term abortions by violent dismemberment, VERY late term abortions using VERY violent dismemberment, some even after the 30th year. And these same entities are trying to use the very act of those abortions to simultaneously abort as many of us as possible!

And THAT is an abortion i'm pleased to pay more taxes to prevent.

The Top Three
If any of the top three were really interested in defending America, I could vote for them. Unfortunately, they seem to not understand that defense of this country starts at our borders and continues with enforcement of our laws. When the top three get a clue about that, I might change my mind. But I will not vote for any more cheap labor importers. Period.

Few real candidates of stature so far
There are few, if any, candidates of real stature going into the 2008 spectacle.

The lot of them, on both sides, carry enough bad baggage of flip flopping, campaign promise breaking, and shameless pandering, to where most of them should be ashamed to go out in public.

Then too, we have become a country so balkanized by special interest groups,(left, right, middle, and some just downright silly) that it isn't funny.

The Republicans and democrats both have their head stuck in the sand and have paralyzed themselves on how we need to deal with immigration and Radical islam.

I fear for the republic.


Will: How disingenuous
First of all, you'll note that I specifically mentioned Fred Thompson,and he is the person I had in mind when I said he'll clean the Dem clock.

Secondly, if any of the names on your list becomes the GOP candidate, I stand behind my assessment. Who had ever heard of Bill Clinton until 6 months before the Democrat primaries?

Secondly, I notice you totally ignored what I wrote about you guys having your own conflicts; how convenient.

Perhaps you should clean your own house before worrying about someone else's mess.




Electable
Romney is electable and is starting to address his negatives. He is running ahead of Thompson in the odds (at least at the moment).

odds
McCain has replaced Rudy as front runner in the odds to win the nomination at TradeSports.com

Rudy has dropped back some but McCain has exploded 11 points in the last few days.

Most polls list McCain as second choice for Rudy supporters. It will be interesting to see if the polls follow the shift in odds.

Lolo
What the polls tell me is that by throwing all one's cards on 1 issue that is not shared by the majority of americans is not a smart election-winning strategy. If the polls suggested otherwise, I'd back Romney.

Cal: Yes
Abortion is rightfully a state issue, and SCOTUS should have enevr heard ROE at all.

That having been said, don't forget that RINO Rudy takes it a step further by supporting *taxpayer funding* for abortions.

How liberal can you possibly get?


Forget Rudy, vote for Fred
A different view on the abortion issue.

Laws based totally upon religious beliefs are a slippery slope that we all need take a step back from and look at the potential dangers.

There are currently religious groups in this country who believe that it is "go to hell" wrong to use modern medicines and blood transfusions to save the life of their children.

Most of us have an idea of what our legal system would be like if a majority of Islamic fundamentalists were elected to our congress/white house.(In many European countries, the Muslim population is approaching 30% or more) Wife beating, honor killings, getting beheaded for blasphemy. No alcohol.

My own view is that I'm against abortion, and I don't believe that I could in good conscience counsel a member of my family to have one. Neither could I tell a rape victim that she must give birth to the child of her tormentor.

That being said, I think that there are some things that require a national debate and possibly a constitutional convention to resolve.

For the last 30 years politicions on both sides of the issue, knowing that they personally could do nothing to change Roe v Wade, have made political hay of it. Democrats and Republicans have both made it one of their litmus tests.

Lets take this out of the hands of our petty, lying, posturing politicians, and make it a constitutional issue decided by a three fourths majority of the people in three fourth of the states.



Tom
I don't know what polls your reading but that's bunk. Irregardless, so what? Are you so incapable of thinking for yourself that you have to let a poll make your decisions for you?

Will
Your a fool. Clinton and her constant phoniness is obvious. B. Hussein Obama is all meringue and no pie. Edwards now has totally screwed himself with his hedge fund nonsense. Keep dreaming.

Giulani
Stick a fork in him...he's done! You simply cannot be personally opposed to abortion then donate money to them six times. Ridiculous. He gets the nomination I'll write in either Hunter or Thompson, but I will not vote for a panderer or a liar. When are these people gonna learn to be honest? He would have been better off defending and selling his position than his constant wandering.

Glad
I'm glad I support a candidate I don't have to apologize for and try to remake his "image' to fit a mold framed by idealogues. Duncan Hunter can beat any Democratic candidate, and what's more he's exactly the candidate we have needed ever since January 20, 1989. A Capability Vacuum has existed in the White House throughout the B-C-B era. I believe a Hunter-Palin ticket would be the ideal, and give the nation higher and more effective service than we've seen during these yearsof the locust.

Will: First of all,
don't act like the same thing isn't happening on the Democrat side, or have you been living in a cave recently?

I know it's nice to think that your candidate is just going to waltz right into the WH, but before you start polishing the champagne glasses you have to wade through your OWN internecine warfare to even select a candidate.

Further, we've got some pretty fine folks who will clean the Democrats' clock: Fred Thompson, Tancredo, some others. So what if they haven't declared yet? Just because RINO Rudy and a couple others tried to preempt conservatives by declaring so ridiculously early doesn't mean Thompson et al have to play the game by their rules.

Dream on, guy.


Rudi for mine in 08
All the polls suggest that most Americans are in favour of abortion over a ban. So most in favour of R v W.

see the dozens of polls which support this:
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

Would be a shame if Reps cant prioritise at this time. Just on Fox, the feeling among most Reps is abortion wont be the number 1 issue, terrorism is, & this is where Rudi scores big.

Yes, he's a huckster, but you need a savvy street smart tough middle politician at this juncture in the US. His positives outweigh his negatives. My ideal guy of the 3 (forget the others, they're not in the hunt so forget them for now) would be Romney, but he's too much of an unknown quantity to win, but maybe in the future. Then McCain, but he hasnt the appeal of Hilary to centrists. So really it comes down to Rudi.

For Reps it could well be a question of 'is it better to lose because of being loyal to 1 or 2 principles, or is it better to win & thereby remain loyal to other principles? Priority time for Reps.


Hustler
Let's NOT forget that under Bush, the Scotus and the DoJ BOTH put out legal papers proclaiming that the Second Amendment is indeed an INDIVIDUAL right. What that did, along with all of the previous supporting documents from 1776 onward made it almost impossible for the libsquirts to repeal the 2d Amendment.

Now, unless we're like the people in NYC, with a gun grabbing, strawman gun buying, felonious Mayor at the helm, who WILLINGLY GIVE up their God-given RTKBA, we've gotten a big boost under Bush.

However, as far as loyalty issues, open borders, gutless leadership, playing pattycake with liberals, Bush...sucks.

ONLY!!! in the primaries
If conservatives after the primaries decide to stay at home AGAIN!! because they don't like whose running then they are complete MORONS!!!

I don't care what anyone says Rudy is light years better then having any demidiot president with control of the house and senate.


Hustler:
I'm not the one you should go to for a defense of Bush, but last I checked he wasn't running again for President.


I will also say that Bush has been pretty good in defending the 2nd Amendment. Bush also hasn't supported taxpayer-funding of abortions, and has a pretty good record on appointing constructionist judges after the Meiers whiffer. RINO Rudy, of course, appointed terribly liberal municipal judges.

So though I'm sure you thought your comment was a real knee-slapper and quite witty, let me disabuse you of that notion, as true humor has a foundation in reality.


Rudy
BrianR: If what you say is true, Rudy is a bald George Bush.

Buck, Lucky
Buck: LOL. Gotta move pretty quick, my friend. I'm in Cali, so I've got the time zones working for me on the new columns.

I've always hated that "established law" BS excuse.

__________________________

Lucky: Thanks. As I wrote, he's definitely the GOP Bill Clinton.


Gaisford: Newsflash
Since 1980, the Republican nominee for President has won the general election whenever, and only if, he is endorsed by the NRA.

What do you think the chances are of the NRA enforsing RINO Rudy? Pretty much zip, bud.

I'll tell you something else. We "gun freaks" decide elections. Think 2000 and 2004, where the outcome was decided by a few thousand people in critical precincts.

How many "gun freaks" have to stay home to toss the election to the Dems? Hardly any.

strict constructivism
Starkie and Phil Byler have it right. The idea that someone could favor precedent on an issue he believes the Constitution says otherwise about and still be called a strict constructivist shows how empty that title has become in practice. What Krauthammer presumably means is that a politically conservative jurist could do that. But it clearly has nothing to do with strictly constructing the constitution.

BrianR
"Giuliani is a huckster snake-oil salesman, trying to convince conservatives he's a conservative while at the same time trying to reassure liberals that he really is the liberal they think he is."

WELL SAID....best description I have see of him so far

Strict Construction
Someone who thinks that the Constitution doesn't support a right to abortion but nevertheless upholds Roe v. Wade because of the settled habits the the decision has produced has not taken a "strict constructionist" view. Quite the contrary, a judge who reasons this way is saying that his wish not to disturb habits trumps strict construction. The fact that Chief Justice Rehnquist, who often supported strict construction, sometimes reasoned in this way does not show that this position is a strict constructionist view.

Neo-Cons LUV Rudy
In 1996, the neo-conservatives came out for Colin Powell. Powell is a liberal, wrong on most every policy issue vital to conservatives. In 2000, the neo-conservatives endorsed John McCain, a moderate who is wrong on many issues important to conservatives. And now the neo-conservatives fervantly hope for Rudy Guiliani, a liberal who is wrong on most policy issues important to conservatives, to be the 2008 Republican candidate for president. What is conservative about neo-conservatives? Very little.

It also must be said that the urbane, urban neo-conservatives find cultural conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, to be an embarrassment. They don't like us, it is clear. Social conservatives are as foreign to neo-conservatives as pork barbeque is to a mosque in Mecca.

Brian, Dammit, You Stole My Thunder
After reading the column I was formulating my own post referring to Dred Scott and Brown v Topeka Board of Education.

Then I scroll down and...presto!

You are nfg!

I'm not sure why...
some folks think it's such a great idea to keep pushing candidates that would do everything in their power to oulaw abortion entirely. The fact is that abortion will NEVER again be illegal until society's views on the practice (shaped by research into fetal development) overwhelmingly reject the procedure and make the issue moot anyway. A more reasonable AND easier to sell approach would be to continue pushing more restrictions. For example:
1. Limit abortions to first trimester only except in cases of developments that occur and threaten the life of the mother. There is no reason for ELECTIVE abortion after the first trimester and no one can use the argument that it took her 5 months to figure that she was pregnant. Three months allows plenty of time to make a well-considered decision.
2. Require all clinics performing the procedure to decribe the procedure in high detail and fully explain the potential future psychological consequences.
3. Require notification of the father a certain number of days before the planned procedure, except in DOCUMENTED cases of rape, incest or domestic abuse.
4. Prohibit the procedure as a response to a fetal test that shows or suggests abnormailities that are NOT severe and would produce a child that suffers greatly during his or her vastly shortened life. Down's syndrome is certainly one example where many women would seriously consider an abortion simply because the child is less than "perfect". Certainly, that condition results in diminished capacity and shorter life span, but no one can argue that people with Down's suffer or are incapable of leading happy, fulfilling lives.
5. Require parental notification except in DOCUMENTED cases of incest for all women under 18.
The abortion debate always has and still is dominated by unreasonable people on both sides. The militant pro-choicers demand that a 15 year old girl be able to drive across state lines without parental notification to have an abortion one week before she is due. And militant pro-lifers will accept nothing less than complete and immediate outlawing of abortion. While that is a noble goal, pushing that at the expense of the continued advance of restrictions actually costs lives that they purport to want to save. Since the toothpaste is not going back in the tube any time soon, REASONABLE people on both sides need to take this issue away from the radicals in order to make some real progress.

Gunny G
I've written the RNC and the VA GOP, They are deaf as a post.

Rudy the RINO
is about as useful to our cause as a condom with the tip cut off.

If you HAVE NOT done so, I suggest writing the RNC and telling them that you'll sit on your hands if any of the RINOs get the nod.

It's way past the time we ditched these gun grabbing dhimmi-lite fools.

NAM65-66
(Assuming you served in VietNam, thank you)

I agree with your post, and the 14th Amendment is a good basis...a stronger one in fact than the "penumbra" of privacy that was used to justify Roe v Wade. What a stretch that was.

I don't believe in write-ins or voting 3rd party willy-nilly (just because neither candidate is IDEAL)--that's what happened in the 06 elections. So in 08, I will likely vote for a major party candidate...but if it were Hillary v Rudy, I might need the name of your fishin' hole.

Levi
You contradict yourself: first you say the decision should be between the mother, father, her siblings(?really), their minister(you assume alot there), and counselors.
THEN you end by saying NO ONE, even the father or any family member would influence your own decision.
What's up with that?

Rudy Guiliani
is PRO OPEN-BORDERS
is ANTI-GUN
is pro-BIG GOVERNMENT MANAGED TRADE

So, yes, if you want to continue to see our country go in the same direction of more and more socialism, well then, you have your man. Please do not call yourself a conservative however.

nyboomer
I totally agree. We have to examine their ACTIONS.

No Open Borders Candidates

Republican voters still get to decide who their nominee will be. Money only buys elections when people act like sheep. If 80% of Republicans are indeed seeking a conservative, we can nominate one. We can nominate Duncan Hunter. The money players won't like it and are trying to convince us only Rudy, Romney, or McCain can win. Hogwash. 49% of people will never vote for Hillary. Only 60% voted last time and turnout was the difference. My belief is Rudy would push turnout down. There might even be a third party, splitting the vote. Give Americans a chance to vote for a candidate who WILL secure the border and watch what happens to turnout. Americans want their government to fulfill it's most basic responsibility.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Nam65-66
You will probably get a lot of heat for your conviction to never vote for someone who believes it is fine to kill babies, but let me thank you for taking a stand. I am right there with you and I get tired of people calling me a "single issue voter" or accusing me of trying to help the Democrats win if I don't vote for a pro-abortion Republican. What these folks don't get is that if you truly believe abortion is murder, which I do, you certainly can't vote for someone who advocates murdering innocent children. This isn't my only issue, it is just the most important one. If you believe abortion is wrong, then why would you ever vote for someone who is pro-abortion? The only reason it is wrong is if it takes a human life, and if it takes a human life, what issue possibly takes precedence over the genocide of 1 million Americans each year? If you are pro-choice, fine, vote for Rudy. If you are pro-life, cast your vote for someone who doesn't advocate killing babies and live up to your convictions. If the choice is Rudy or Hillary, I will still vote, but I will write-in my candidate.

Giuliani and campign promises
A voter sued Rudi over a campaign promise. Rudi said that he would do X if the voters put him in office. He was sued for breach of promise. After all a verbal contract in front of witnesses is binding.

The courts dismissed the case with the explanation that "were politicians to be held to promises made during a campaign, our political system would never work."

A politician's statements during a campaign are equivalent to any other lie. There may be intentions involved but politicians pay back favors. They do not keep promises.

To Levi
Two responses to your 4:30 AM post:

(1) A person is entitled to his views on abortion, but a person is not entitled to read into the U.S. Constitution a "right" that is not there. All overruling Roe v. Wade does is to send the issue back to the states for handling in the democratic process by the state legislatures. You are entirely free, with others, to have the state legislature enact a statute that reflects how you beliieve abortion should be treated.

(2) If unborn children are human life, then we cannot just leave it to the mother to decide abortion. A mother cannot just kill her born children; that would be murder. What pro-lifers say is that unborn children are properly protected by the State. This is why sonograms have such a visceral impact.

A Strict Constructionist Overrules Roe
I reject Rudi's argument that a strict constructionist justice on the U.S. Supreme Court might accept Roe v. Wade as established precedent and not overrule it. A strict constructionist would look at Roe v. Wade and see that it is very bad constitutional law (which it is) and overrule it -- period. Plessy v. Ferguson's "separate but equal" was the constitutional law of the land from 1896 to 1954 -- 58 years -- until it was overruled in Brown v. Board of Education. By Rudi's logic, it would have been justifiable to preserve "separate but equal" as the constututional standard because Plessy v. Ferguson was precedent for a long time -- much longer than Roe v. Wade's 34 years. Of course, it would be unthinkable that "separate but equal" continue to be the constitutional law of the land, even though Plessy v. Ferguson was the law for nearly 60 years. But so should the idea that Roe v. Wade should be preserved because it has been with us for 34 years. If Roe v. Wade is wrong, and I submit that it is bad constitutional law, then it should be overruled.

The 14th Amendment...
...to the Constitution of the United States,section 1,: "...nor shall any state deprive any person of life,liberty,or property,without due process of law;nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

No penumbra's,no emanations,no nothing.Science say's that life begins at conception,just as they say that the shape of the earth is round,not flat.But you don't have to be a scientist to figure out when life begins.Your own native logic tells you it HAS to begin somewhere,and wherever that place is,just go back to 10 seconds before that.Was it life or not? (Yes,I know that the judges that decided Roe agreed that,in chambers,that they would NOT decide when life begins.Their decision was recorded on tape which I heard once on C-SPAN),but these were the judges who wanted abortion to be legal.And besides,RvsW was argued on privacy issues,not life issues.

Those who think the States can decide this issue must realize that the States are under the jurisdiction of the US Constitution and if ever this abortion issue is returned to the states,the legal battles will begin immediately on this very point,right back to the Supreme Court.

As for me,I have never voted for anyone who believed in killing children through abortion,and I won't start now,not in primaries and not in general elections.If two abortionists are running against each other,I can always go fishing on election day.

But those who disagree with me can relax.I am only one vote and one vote will never swing an election for a president.


Rudy most conservative?
Steve will endorse Rudy Giuliani since "Of the three [GOP] presidential possibilities [...], Rudy is by far the most conservative." Is that really the best way to pick our next president? By how pollsters, media, spin doctors and general opinion rate the candidates' relative conservativism?

How about picking the person who will best get the job done? We are facing serious challenges right now: demographic (think Social Security), security (still-present threat of terrorism) and geopolitical (the mess of cleaning up after a botched war). These challenges require a candidate whose resume best demonstrates s/he is able to deal with crises and engage in the necessary horse-trading to get things done in Washington. What we DON'T need is the most conservative or most liberal person we can get for the job.

We should pick our next president - indeed every president - based on candidate's proven record of governance, not on some arbitrary rating from the Heritage Foundation or the ACLU. Of the three presidential possibilities Steve mentions, Rudy is the most capable and experienced.

RUDY, YES
In my own column today (click on my name above), which will be up about 8:30 a.m. EDT I'm going to endorse -- strongly -- Rudy Giuiliani for President. My simple point is that it now appears the next President will be one of the following: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, or Rudy Giuliani. There are other good candidates on the Republican side, but it seems fanciful to believe they can both get the nomination and win in the general election. Of the three presidential possibilities I've mentioned, Rudy is by far the most conservative. Come debate the issue if you'd like.

steve

Democrats for Giuliani
I disagree with BrianR that nominating Giuliani would relegate the GOP to minority status. Giuliani is just what the country needs right now - a uniting figure that mainstream Americans can get behind. Whether you're a civil liberties Democrat, a tough-on-crime Republican or, like myself, a libertarian swing voter, Giuliani is a great candidate because he is smack dab in the middle of US politics.

Rebublicans should be so lucky to field Giuliani, a figure with real crossover potential. He's much more appealing to moderate Democrats than any of their party's choices for president, including the unelectable Mrs. Clinton and the rookie Mr. Barack. Plus, for GOP'ers he's a much more sensible choice than the unelectable Mr. Romney or the octegenarian Mr. McCain...

In fact, the only people to whom Giuliani is repugnant are the minority hard-liners in either party - including, it seems, BrianR. Whether you're a trigger-happy gun freak or a tree-hugging welfare junky, Giuliani is bound to nauseate you. Why? Because he's never been afraid to tell the crazies on either wing how desparately out of step they are with the American mainstream.

Giuliani and abortion by Krauthammer
I believe abortion should be between the pregnant mother to be, the father to be, perhaps their siblings and their minister. If counselors are available they should be considered.

I am not a woman but society should accept this approach. This is a very serious decision and it should never be made hastily. Once the mother to be has decided to abort their baby. THAT'S IT! Too late to change your mind.

How it became a decision for a judge to decide is beyond the pale. All that Roe v Wade is nothing more than political garbage. Furthermore, ALL judges of law should rule as our Constitution provides...period. ALL of them know this. Why do they want to make law rather than interpret the law?

Finally, if I were a woman...no law, no judge, no family member and not even my husband would decide the fate of our baby to be. I would be the final decision maker...period.


Dred Scott, anybody?
That was settled law for well over half a century until Brown v. Board of Education.

Everything else is BS.

Giuliani is a huckster snake-oil salesman, trying to convince conservatives he's a conservative while at the same time trying to reassure liberals that he really is the liberal they think he is.

And the libs are right; he is.

He's not only for abortion, he's for TAXPAYER FUNDING!

He's anti-gun.

He's pro amnesty.

Not only is Giuliani for abortion, HE IS an abortion.

If the GOP nominates this cretin, they'll have earned 4 more years of minority status, and I hope they get it.




Are you sleeping okay Chuck?
I know that neocons such as Krauthammer are dissapointed in the fact that Rudy might not win with the great unwashed protestants come 2008 and want to stick with a conservative.

This means that the blue blood repugs are going to lose the Repub party next year... either in the primaries or when their golden boy loses the presidency due to low turnout, and the party will be required to return to Reaganism to survive. With Ohio up for grabs, the Repub party CANNOT afford to lose a single southern state. DO they think they can do it with a pro choice Catholic? Fat chance.

And they can't stand it. Go pout to your daddy, neocon trash.
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