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Friday, April 13, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Forcing U.S. to quit in Iraq
by Charles Krauthammer
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By the day, the debate at home about Iraq becomes increasingly disconnected from the realities of the actual war on the ground. The Democrats in Congress are so consumed with negotiating among their factions the most clever linguistic device to legislatively ensure the failure of the administration's current military strategy -- while not appearing to do so -- that they speak almost not at all about the first visible results of that strategy.

And preliminary results are visible. The landscape is shifting in the two fronts of the current troop surge: Anbar province and Baghdad.

The news from Anbar is the most promising. Only last fall, the Marines' leading intelligence officer there concluded that the U.S. had essentially lost the fight to al-Qaeda. Yet, just this week, the marine commandant, Gen. James Conway, returned from a four-day visit to the province and reported that we "have turned the corner."

Why? Because, as Lt. Col. David Kilcullen, the Australian counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. David Petraeus, has written, 14 of the 18 tribal leaders in Anbar have turned against al-Qaeda. As a result, thousands of Sunni recruits are turning up at police stations where none could be seen before. For the first time, former insurgent strongholds such as Ramadi have a Sunni police force fighting essentially on our side.

Retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, a major critic of the Bush war policy, now reports that in Anbar, al-Qaeda is facing "a real and growing groundswell of Sunni tribal opposition." And that "this is a crucial struggle and it is going our way -- for now."

The situation in Baghdad is more mixed. Thursday's bridge and Green Zone attacks show the insurgents' ability to bomb sensitive sites. On the other hand, pacification is proceeding. "Nowhere is safe for Westerners to linger," reported ABC's Terry McCarthy on April 3, ``but over the past week we visited five different neighborhoods where the locals told us life is slowly coming back to normal.'' He reported from Jadriyah, Karrada, Zayouna, Zawra Park and the notorious Haifa Street, previously known as "sniper alley." He found that "children have come out to play again. Shoppers are back in markets," and concluded that "nobody knows if this small safe zone will expand or get swallowed up again by violence. For the time being though, people here are happy to enjoy a life that looks almost normal."

Fouad Ajami, just returned from his seventh trip to Iraq, is similarly guardedly optimistic and explains the change this way: Fundamentally, the Sunnis have lost the battle of Baghdad. They initiated it with their indiscriminate terror campaign that they assumed would cow the Shiites, whom they view with contempt as congenitally quiescent, lower-class former subjects. They learned otherwise after the Samarra bombing (February 2006) kindled Shiite fury -- a savage militia campaign of kidnapping, indiscriminate murder and ethnic cleansing that has made Baghdad a largely Shiite city.

Petraeus is trying now to complete the defeat of the Sunni insurgents in Baghdad -- without the barbarism of the Shiite militias, whom his forces are simultaneously pursuing and suppressing.

How at this point -- with only about half of the additional surge troops yet deployed -- can Democrats be trying to force the U.S. to give up? The Democrats say they are carrying out their electoral mandate from the November election. But winning a single-vote Senate majority as a result of razor-thin victories in Montana and Virginia is hardly a landslide.

Second, if the electorate was sending an unconflicted message about withdrawal, how did the most uncompromising supporter of the war, Sen. Joe Lieberman, win handily in one of the most liberal states in the country?

And third, where was the mandate for withdrawal? Almost no Democratic candidates campaigned on that. They campaigned for changing the course the administration was on last November.

Which the president has done. He changed the civilian leadership at the Department of Defense, replaced the head of Central Command and, most critically, replaced the Iraq commander with Petraeus -- unanimously approved by the Democratic Senate -- to implement a new counterinsurgency strategy.

John McCain has had no illusions about the difficulty of this war. Nor does he now. In his bold and courageous speech at the Virginia Military Institute defending the war effort, he described the improvements on the ground while acknowledging the enormous difficulties ahead. Insisting that success in Iraq is both possible and necessary, McCain made clear that he is willing to stake his presidential ambitions, indeed his entire political career, on a war policy that is unpopular but that he believes must be pursued for the sake of the country. How many other presidential candidates -- beginning with, say, Hillary Clinton -- do you think are acting in the same spirit?

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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he has "cheney's disease"
the insurgency is in its last throes.

religiouslib
I guess you are saying these Generals are lying?
They are there, we are not? It's so easy to comment from half way around the world.
I know you don't want to believe it, but it may be true.
I'm still wondering why no Libs have commented on Elder's column Ap. 12th.

Obviously

there is no good news from Iraq ! This is just a fluke, we'll be losing again in no time !
(Liberals please note, the previous was sarcasm, similar in nature to satire)

It certainly would be nice if the Imperial Congress of the USA would stop pandering to the viewing public and do their jobs instead.

And since they (Democrats) said no more pork just a couple months ago, would it be too much to ask for them to wait at least a year before they go back on their word?!?!?

We need to end the war in Iraq, with victory, not with our tails between our proverbial legs.

Let the Military do their jobs, stop hobbling them with ridiculous rules of engagement and give them the tools to finish what we started. Then bring our people home.

Tanabear
I am curious where the percents in that comment come from...5-10% foreign fighters and 3% voilence reduction....Do they come from a credible source, or are they just random?

To You Nitwit Defeatists
To you nitwit defeatists who doubt the progress that the new general (Petraeus) and the new strategy (clear and hold suppported by surge) are achieving in Iraq, why don't you you just admit that hate America and want America to lose. If you cared about America, you would want America to prevail.

For those of who do love America, we have been watching carefully, and there is good reason to believe that we are on the right track and that we are making progress. That's the word from my older son, a U.S. Army First Lieutenant serving in Iraq, and I would take his word about anything.

When do bad policies become treasonous?

A Negotiated Settlement?
I keep hearing that the left demands a Diplomatic end to Iraq. Diplomacy requires give and take, compromise, giving something to get something in return.

If that is inf act what they desire, please tell us what you desire we give up to have the peace. Shall we abandon Israel? The Iraqi Oil Fields? Maybe the East Coast?

You say you don't want Victory and you don't want defeat, just a negotiated end. So, let us know what you would give up to the terrorists.

Thanks Charles
very clear report on the progress Charles. It is beyond my understanding that many Democrats would not give this surge, that seems so hopeful, a chance. The only explanation that seems possible is that these Democrats wish defeat for political reasons. Shameful.

Failure in Iraq
is the result of the administration's complete lack of contingency planning for the period after the invasion. They were so sure it would be a 'cakewalk' as Adelman put it. They didn't
even bother to think about what would happen if there was an insurgency. Even Frum who wrote the Axis of Evil speech and Perle,one of the originators of the Iraq invasion scenario admit that it's a disaster. The execution of the strategy they did enact was so badly handled that they didn't even guard the weapons caches abandoned by the deserting Iraqi forces.They allowed the insurgents to arm themselvs with material that could have easily been secured.This has nothing to do with the quality of effort by the troops, this is a failure of leadership.
I don't have the expertise to know wether it's salvagaeble or not .But some of the most prominent architects of the policy ,like Perle,Adelman,Frum seem to think not.Check it out.

Undermining victory, is a victory
When it comes to throwing in the towel, who knows better then the Democrats on how to do that. If we were just in Afghanistan and not in Iraq, we would be seeing the same propaganda against the war in Afghanistan. If the Democrats and the far left are so set against war to protect this country, it doesn't matter where we fight the enemy. The Democrats and the far left are against it. Right now, their focus is just on Iraq because of 9/11. In their minds terrorism is restricted by borders. Therefore, we must only fight terrorist in Afghanistan, and not Iraq because thats the only war, which meets the seal of approval by the Democrats and the far left. On posters by the protesters they wish death on our soldiers in Iraq, because they hate war and their slogan is better red then dead. War is war regardless where it's fought. Yet, in the minds of the Democrats and the far left, the soldiers in Iraq are their enemies, and the soldiers in Afghanistan are there fighting a war on terrorism. What a contradiction in their opposition to war. The only reason Afghanistan gets a free pass by the anti war crowd, and the Democrats is because we were attacked on 9/11. Other then that, the Democrats and the far left could never see any good reason to go to war to protect this country. With a slogan better red then dead, how can we ever count on the Democrats and the far left to ever support this country, our President, and our troops, against any future attacks. We can't.

"Imus"
.

Libs REAL GOOD
and cutting and running. I'd say ask a few million Cambodes/Vietnamese but they're all dead in the killing fields after the Dhimmicrats tucked tail and ran.

The world understanding
of many people is unbelievably limited and based on the idea that everybody else in the world thinks exactly like they do.

They say negotiate but how do you negotiate with someone who's starting point is "you die" and won't come off it? The word compromise is not in everybody's dictionary. They can't believe anybody could hate us that much.

They say they hate us because we are rich. Have the left ever thought about the amounts of money that are in "OIL RICH" arab countries? How do you buy someone off who would only consider your offer (bribe) as chump change when compared to potential oil revenues?

They think that by our military being wimpy on tbe battle field we will win the world's admiration. They can't seem to understand that most of the rest of the world wants us to be knocked down a peg or two out of sheer jealousy or out accomplishments and way of life.

They think that by turning Iraqi jails into rest camps we are winning their hearts and minds. They appear not to believe that in that part of the world anything short of severe physical torture (using the original definition of the word) is a rest camp and Guantanamo is a luxury resort.

The biggest problem is that there is nothing that those of us who understand reality can do about it.

Pappy Michael
Check my blog. I have a video link you're gonna LOVE! A Marine DI chowing down on a recruit in the finest tradition of the Corps! haha. BTW, check the dazed look on that recruit's face (near the end) I love it! haha.

Nintendo Generation
All Iraq war objections are time-based. That is, the opposition is based on the fact that the war has been waging too long. If things were smooth in Iraq as of last year at this time, there'd obviously be no opposition.

But how in hell can anyone expect such swift results in a place where people / groups have hated and oppressed each other for many decades?

I call this unrealistic expectation of instant results a bi-product of the TV clicker-oriented Nintendo Generation: strong thumbs, weak minds.

And as for the missteps? Well, when your goals are Colossal, the mistakes you make along the way are bound to be of similar proportions yet not necessarily fatal - pulling out and abanndoning the Iraqis to the forces of radical Islam notwithstanding.

We must achieve our goal, no matter how long it takes. Ten years is my guess-timate. A quiet, successful Iraq will change the world. Turning it over to the likes of Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah will only strengthen the cause or radical Islam, which is the real enemy.


Boy Scout
What the Democrats are proposing is akin to a Boy Scout helping a little old lady halfway across the street and leaving her to fend for herself by running away when the traffic gets too heavy. They say we need to go another direction which to me means retreat. Once we start retreating from the war on terror where and when do we stop?
As Rush says the Democrats own defeat. A more loyal and wiser opposition party would question President Bush's management of the war but state that the consequences of losing the war would be so great that they will give him whatever he needs to win. Then in 2008 they would let the American people decide if new leadership is needed for victory.
We are a noble nation and what we are doing in Iraq is a noble cause. We are not there for the spoils of war but to give the Iraqi people an opportunity to decide if their future will be determined by the bullet or the ballot. We need to realize that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have emancipated more people than our civil war did.

IF Kerry had won the 04 election
and maintained his stated policy at the time this would be the most just war in history and we would be winning on all fronts. If you remember Kerry's policy, where you could actually tell he had a policy, it wasn't that much different than Bush's policy, except that Kerry said we needed more troops.


Iraq and victory
I recall the President stating that the Iraq war would not be easy yet his critics claim he stated it would be a cake walk. I listened to McCain yesterday and his comment was that if we give the enemy a timetable for withdrawal there will be a bloodbath and they will follow us home. The terrorists have a significant infrastructure put together in the US right now. If they get experienced suicidal fighters into this country that infrastructure could reek havoc. If that happens then will the libs come ouit of the woodwork wanting to appease or surrentder. Too many in the US believe that we cannot actually be hurt or knocked down completely because we are the USA. They have no concept of true defeat. We were hit on 9/11 hard and we can be hit again and again on a smaller scale over a long period of time. Terrorists have and have had a international terror network. We picked the battlefield which is Iraq and if we schedule a pullout all the enemy will do is use it for refit for some real battles. Those battles will be with us. We are the Great Satan. We are the primary target.

Gray Owl
That is probably the best analogy of the Dhimmicrats actions I have ever read. Take a bow on that one.

Patton had the libs pegged well back in 45 when he complained that they "always leave us with one more war to fight."

After Karter let the Ayatollah have Iran in 1979, today's problem was a foregone conclusion.

GunnyG
Carter was and is and idiotic human being, but really, the situation with the overthrow of the Shah in Iran had nothing whatsoever to do with Hussein's 30+ year reign in Iraq. In fact, it's just the opposite.

When the radicals came into power in Iran, Hussein invaded not long afterwards. Embattled, Khomeni began drafting very young men (I'm talking kids) - I think they were called the Red Martyrs Brigade or some such. These waves of kids literally overran the Iraqis, who would mow them down but eventually be overrun by the human wave, much of which was not armed. They took up the weapons of Iraqis they killed and began to push them back. The human cost of this was enormous, and it would never have happened under the Shah.

To take it a step further, Hussein was armed and funded by none other than the Reagan administration (point being that we hated Iran then and Hussein, although a despot, was "the enemy of my enemy").

Point being: Reagan gave Hussein teeth, not Carter. You can make the case about Carter facilitating a Pandora's Box in Iran, but not Iraq.

And to give Carter some credit, he was the one who green-lighted the most ambitious hostage rescue operation in history, Operation Eagle Claw. It failed miserably, but that was not Carter's fault.

Just getting history straight.

Drops of Blood
The big question is ,does American blood stop being shed if we withdraw from Iraq? I think the big lie by the Dems is that if we leave , no more American kids get killed or injured. America doesn't get to make that decision, only our enemies do.I think we have a choice. Either innocent civilians die or troops die, but Americans will keep dieing as long as Islamists keep attacking. That is why fighting in Iraq gives us some say in who dies,troops or civilians.

Have we found Grant?
What continues to bother me is the way our politicians talk about Iraq as if they really knew something about it. Very few know a Corporal from a Colonel or a Corps from a Regiment and yet somehow they have it all figured out. They should be called out for their ignorance and be silent on military matters. President Bush has been correct all along—leave the war to the Generals; after all even Lincoln lost a lot of battles until he found Grant---it’s all part of war.

Our War in Iraq Is As Good As War Gets
The half-decade of huffing and puffing over this "war" (guffaw) is absurd in the extreme. First off, every single American soldier in Iraq is a volunteer, not a conscript. So any moaning and groaning over casualties has to be done with full awareness that they volunteered (are you listening Cindy Sheehan?).

Some perspective people:

We have less combat casualties in five years in Iraq than we had in two weeks in WWII in a battle for one little island.

How many conscripts died in wars we did not win in Korea and Vietnam? 50,000 each?

This is not a war, it's an expensive security operation. I met General Tommy Franks in Long Island once and Franks said that they expect over 3000 American combat deaths in Baghdad in street fighting during the initial invasion alone!

It's scary how much crying over this war is happening. We don't know war. Tens of thousands dead in a year is war. This is a nation building security op.

Vic
There's not a dime's bit of real difference between Kerry and Bush. I doubt hardly anything would have been much different if Kerry would have been elected. We are presented these 2 men and told they stood on opposite ends of the spectrum, but in reality they did not. They are both big government *U&^T&&^%$! Neither stand for our country, our liberty and our Constitution.

Caught between Iraq and a hard place

Krauthammer writes, "Petraeus is trying now to complete the defeat of the Sunni insurgents in Baghdad -- without the barbarism of the Shiite militias, whom his forces are simultaneously pursuing and suppressing."

So US forces are simutaneously fighting the Sunni extremists and the Shiite extremists. And we know also, the US is fighting the foreign Al Queada terrorists. The "clear and hold" strategy is all fine a well, but without the 2 million moderate professionals who now living as exiles in places like Syria and Jordon, there is no political center which can "hold" after the US leaves.

Although we hear, mostly, about the military "surge" as being the salvation of this fiasco, the real hope lies in the efforts being made politically at the moment, namely the effort to redistribute the oil revenues to the Sunnis and the effort to give Saddam's high level military their retirement pensions and invite Saddam's mid level military into the new Iraq military.




cons have no guts
where is the courage of your convictions.

you scream and yell about defeatist while you sit back in your little rooms and do nothing.

if you believe in the cause volunteer and go.

but more importantly if you think this is a struggle for life and death why aren't you calling for a million troops in bagdad and the nukeing of tehran and mecca.

either win this war by going all out or get out.

this bush strategy has failed and failed and failed.
if he had prosecuted this work competently we would have already won and would be bringing troops home.

conservatives lack the courage to call for what is needed. if you believe this is a aworld war that needs to be won then demand bush start wiping out the muslins en mass.

gunnyg in particular is the worst offender.
if you want to win why aren't you there.
if you want to win why aren't you calling for all out war.

i am sure i will get a profanity laced post filled with insults from him but he is all talk no action.

i know you have served before gunnyg what is stopping you now.
if the military says you are too old or frail you could join blackwater as a security person.

don't post about others till you have the courage of your convictions.



religious lib
Was your post an exercise in cramming as many rhetorical and logical fallacies into one post as possible?


Congress
Ras has a new poll out that indicates that perceptions of the Dem Congress are changing. This will eventually hurt them.

Forty-one percent (41%) of voters believe most Democrats in Congress are politically liberal while 39% say they are politically moderate. That’s a significant shift to the left since the Democrats formally took control of Congress in January. Last December, just 32% viewed the Democrats as politically liberal while 44% viewed them as moderates (see tracking history).

Ed- Hussein's teeth
Were sharpened more by the Soviets than by the US Hussein's Iraq received its weaponry and support much more from the USSR, China, Libya, East Germany, and a few others prior to and during US involvement in the 80s.

Iggles
'Iggles writes: Friday, April, 13, 2007 11:13 AM
religious lib
Was your post an exercise in cramming as many rhetorical and logical fallacies into one post as possible?'

Inggles....Just look at it as a typical temper tantrum that you might see from a spoiled little 'crybaby' brat that is afraid he's not going to get his own way!

His quote "this bush strategy has failed and failed and failed."...had me ROFWL. I guess he's comparing the 'Bush strategy' to the Dem's strategy that has succeeded and succeeded and succeeded!....lol

Hey 'saintlylib'...you should of added a few more 'faileds' to make your point even stronger, don't you think!?....lol

Power?
This goes right to the heart of the issue.

If we can not effectively fight the war in Iraq, If this is the real limitation of our power,how in the world are we going to meet any bigger challenge?

What if we actually had to deal with Russia or China or for that matter Iran (3 times as many people as Iraq)?

The Republicans are supposed to be the party of national security and we can't even maintain 150,000 troups in the field.

It sends the wrong message at home and abroad.

The Dems are saying "the military has reached it's limits of power and can't win, so lets spend the money on welfare".

The Republicans are talking about winning and national security but Americans are watching and see limits of power?

Something is not right.

Republican have to come up with a believable plan for creating a military that can deal with bigger threats than Iraq.


Two Points
1) The soldiers fighting this war are professionals who volunteered. Most soldiers in Iraq seem intensely irritated by those back home who oppose the war and are in favor of a withdrawal. The soldiers are willing to die for the cause. Therefore, the Democrats and anti-war Republicans (let's not forget them, people) should get behind the war effort.

2) When Iraqi MPs are being blown up by terrorists in the middle of the Green Zone (as happened yesterday), it's pretty hard not to regard this opinion piece as just another example of deluded wishful thinking from the Cheney/Rumsfeld school of, yes, deluded wishful thinking.

Fortress America
As long as the majority of Americans believe that we have reached the "limits of our power" and can do no more than withdraw from Iraq. They will, with frustration, want to pull back to Fortress America.

We have almost 3 million people in the Armed services. Only 150,000 of them are in Iraq. What are the rest doing that is so crucial that we have to recycle the same troups over and over in Iraq.

The Republican Party is paying on every front because they promised security and delivered "limited power", that has to be changed before the next election.

Where is the plan that reassures the voters that the Republicans can really deliver security? We all know the Dems are a bunch of Ostriches but where is the Republican plan (except to offer "more of the same")?

Romney took a good step in the right direction, but where is the comprehensive plan for a military that can deal with Iran?

photogbill
always with the insults when you can't intellectually engage huh?

why was rummy fired and the generals fired if bushs policy was succeeding.
bush has himself conceded it was not working.

do you disagree with bush on this or was he lying.

name one person beside yourself who believes that bushs strategy has been a success.





Right On Objective
This has been a tough fight. Most of our enemy's know that our week point is political support at home. Those that are week here at home have been rewarding the terrorists for some time with speech helpful to their cause. Most of those who feel the fight has been lost don't even hear the intel concerning how stretched the AQI crowd is in a tactical and strategic sence. It's hard on us politically, but it's harder on them from a number of standpoints.

There is no recognition on the left of the severe consequences resulting from acceptance of defeat at the hands of the kinds of folks that drive cars loaded with explosives into crowded pedestrian events loaded with women and children. It's not a pretty thought. They don't seem to have a plan for a way out of the more than obvious consequences of failure.

I would call this good effective and truthful journalism. We need more of it.

Note to "religiouslib"

Okay, let us intellectually engage. Bush may have conceded that certain aspects of his policy were not working, and as such, rather than proceed with something that does not work, he switched Defense Secretaries and some of his top generals in order to pursue a better policy at an advanced stage of the strategy.

Certain intervals of long-term strategy require different tactics. Rumsfeld and the previous set of top-ranked generals may have had the right skill sets for early stages in the global War on Terror. Goodness knows that the Department of Defense needed some transformation for a new kind of warfare which we now face, and historians will see that Rumsfeld led that proper transformation.

But I digress. Just because previous tactics are outdated, must one continue in them just to conform to the opposition's desire for defeat? Heavens no! Now that we are in an advanced stage of the War on Terror and in the war in Iraq, we need new tactics, and new leadership in the DoD top brass is required to help implement them. If Bush and his administration are guilty of anything in terms of mismanagement, it is waiting too long to send in the troop surge, something they should have done from the get-go.

But now that the surge is working -- even members of the drive-by media such as NBC's Brian Williams have started to acknowledge tangible improvements in Iraq -- as Krauthammer reports, the Dems are now scrambling to throw a new monkeywrench into the military's works. Why? Because the Dems and their hard-left base OWN defeat (and have for decades, really).

'sanctimoniouslib'
I've given up on any chance of having an 'intellectually honest' discussion/argument with raving, incoherent, dis-honest libs like yourself. It's a total waste of time.

It's more fun to just mock you and watch you go over the top...The more you talk...the more you'll put your foot in your mouth...again...and again...and again! :)

Sir 'Charlles'
Great column!

Another clear and insightful analysis of the state of affairs we often find ourselves in with anti-America libs doing everything they can to insure America continues to weaken.

ltcmdr
i notice you separated the war in iraq from the war on terror. i agree with that assessment.

i was totally supportive of afghnistan and like most americans support the broader war on terror.

it is too early to say if things in iraq have improved in iraq and when the iraqi parliament is bombed in its own building its a little hard to prove the point.

if the green zone isn't safe how can anyone make the claim it is improving.
here is the problem.

we have heard all this before, again and again we were told things are improving, good stuff is happening only to have our hopes dashed on the rocks of reality.

mccain has continually lamented the whack a mole theory and that is what i am seeing again.
there were 50000 iraqis in the street monday telling us to get out and again we hear bush say that this is only democracy at work.

as far as owning defeat.
this administration will own this defeat because of incompetence and as a former or current military officer you know that is true.

if we go back to vietnam, if you check you will find that every single republican in congress voted to stop funding the war in 1973.


photogbill
i tell you what -you print out your posts and my posts and then let any friend of yours judge which of us has the most logical and interestign posts.

do it if you dare my friend

Intellectual Debate
I'd like to enter an intellectual debate. Liberal Democrats are ignorant power crazed morons who only care about attaining and holding on to power. They care nothing about the troops. They care nothing about the country. This has been proven by their votes. First with the nonbinding resolution instead of cutting funding if they truly believed the war was a lost cause. Now with the conditions to funding and arbitrary end dates a year from now. If they believe the war is lost (they keep saying it is), then they are obligated to cut funding and bring our troops home now. Why wait? They declared the surge a failure before it even began after all. What is there plan moving forward after we pull out of Iraq? There isn't one. These are the same people who ranted on and on about Bush not having a post invasion plan. How do we combat radical Islam after we've been defeated? We have discussions with Syria and Iran. About what? I even had one idiot lib tell me we can talk to them without negotiating with them. News Flash, EVERYTHING is a negotiation in the Middle East. So where is this intellectual debate?

Apoplectic
Intellectual debate?

I started to read your post, thinking perhaps that you truly want to discuss an issue intellectually.

Your first sentence eliminates that possibility.

dogjudge
I formed an opinion and backed it up with factual information. How is that not an intellectual debate?

Conscripts versus volunteers
I've seen this differentiation made before between conscripts versus volunteers when it comes to the Iraq war.

Although I "volunteered" for the Air Force in '67, it was because I knew that I was going to get drafted into the army if I didn't "volunteer".

As opposed to some type of name calling rant fest, I'd like someone to explain why conservatives appear to make this differentiation more than liberals? I'm not name calling here, I'm simply making a statement based on my own observations. I could be totally wrong.

In war, dead is dead. I don't care if you volunteered, or were drafted.

Since we went into this was because the security of the nation was in jeopardy, why make the differentiation? It isn't as if these people are volunteering to die so that others can do everything they can to avoid serving their country. If asked, I'm sure they'd like to know what everyone else is doing to serve their country.

Could someone please explain your reasoning behind the comment a little more?

Apoplectic
The first part of your post is filled with pejoratives. If you want to discuss issues, bring up the issues, not your name calling rants about Democrats.

You want to discuss getting out Iraq. We can do that. Keep in mind that we both have different views of the situation.

You bring up negotiations with Iran and Syria, you bring up radical Islam, you bring up timetables, you bring up cutting off funding right now, which one of these do you want to discuss?

It's a little hard here to discuss them all at the same time.

moral majority
This is not the first trillion dollar war we have fought.The first one we fought and are still fighting is LBJ's war on poverty.Besides the trillions of dollars we will never know the true cost to the families black and white that this war

Intellectual debate
Hi Dogjudge,

Let me restate apoplectic's statement as a simple question.

Why don't the Democrats vote to cut off funding for the war right now, instead of passing non-binding resolutions and appropriation bills with strings attached that they know will never survive a presidential veto?


It Must Be...
...great to be a pro war conservative. All you have to do is say everything is going swimmingly in Iraq, any evidence to the contrary is merely nonsense contrived by the "liberal" media or even if it is a true assessment it shouldn't be reported as it enables our enemies. George Orwell couldn't have come up with anything better.
I personally think we will see a major pullout in time for the next US presidential election, any conflict subsequent to this will merely be the fault of the 'ungrateful' Iraqi's and nothing to do with us in the West.

wjriii
Not trying to be cute.

Simple answer. Beats the hell out of me.

My guess is they are doing it for a variety of reasons.

One would be to put the President in a corner about all of this. The Democrats aren't going to succeed with this until they've got the President in the worst possible position.

As you and I both are aware in order to get this type of legislation through, the Democrats are going to need Republicans to join their side.

If they put a no-strings attached, "clean", funding cutoff bill up, it would be voted down or vetoed. There is little likelihood that they'd be able to override a veto.

If they take this in "steps" they are more likely to be able to get what they want.

At the same time, the President wants it the other way to prevent the loss of his Republican support.

I'm not making any judgments on any of this. Just my opinion. If I was liberal or conservative, my view of WHY this is happening wouldn't change.

wjriii
harry reid is getting to that.

look the american people want us out of there and that is what is going to happen now or in the next 2 years but it has to been done with some finesse.

so the responsible thing to do is to win the political battle against the "keep digging the hole conservatives" at home and then slowly and measured pull back the troops.

no matter when we leave it will have to be that way because a large percentage of iraqis hate us now because of bush's incompetence so if it is next year or even 5 years you are going to have to move cautiously and slowly.


RE: G Gunny
The Khmer rouge,who did the killing fields in Cambodia rose to power because the central government failed to protect those in the north against the US bombing. The people suprted the Khmer Rouge because they said they would protect Cambodia. If we hadn't been illegally bombing civilians in northern Cambodia the Khmer rouge woud never have taken over. BTW it was the Republican Richard Nixon who withdrew from Viet Nam .

sam
gunny g cannot debate intellectually. he is simply a bombthrower who uses insults instead of facts.
he knows very little about american history but pretends because he has a blog and was in the military that he is the master of townhall and all information discussed.

it is sad and pathetic actually.
i have tried to debate him using facts but as with alot of conservatives facts produced outside their bubble of biased right wing media scares them.

Sam
"If we hadn't been illegally bombing civilians in northern Cambodia the Khmer rouge woud never have taken over. "

Laughable.

Conservatives have abandoned principle
As a lifelong conservative, I am appalled at how my fellow conservatives have abandoned their traditional principles of foreign policy and are twisting themselves into logical and moral pretzels over having to support the totally irrational Bush war policy in Iraq.

This war OUGHT to represent the antithesis of everything conservatism has ever said about how to wage war--but it doesn't, because a Republican is Commander-in-Chief and apparently party loyalty to him trumps principle.

First, we have been reduced to defending sending Americans off to war to "help the Iraqi people", when conservatives NEVER wanted to fight "humanitarian," "altruistic" wars on behalf of someone else. Compare the reaction to this war with the reaction to President Clinton's bombing of Serbia, ostensibly to stop "ethnic cleansing" there. It was the LIBERALS who defend using military action for "humanitarian" purposes, not conservatives. Till now.

Second, conservatives have to explain how a war that is supposed to matter in such apocalyptic terms ("if we don't win over there, the terrorists will follow us over here") was fought with a "stay-the-course" policy, only some 140,000 troops, and restrictive Rules of Engagement, from 2003 thru January 2007. Conservatives used to say that while no one wants war, if we do go to war then we go ALL OUT to win it, with overwhelming massive force, no pulling our punches like in Vietnam in a hopeless attempt to win "hearts and minds." No longer, apparently. Rumsfeld employed a minimalist "small footprint" strategy (which Bush now admits has failed), and we conservatives went along with it AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGMENT.

Conservatives did NOT believe in micro-managing wars. We used to laugh at how President Lyndon Johnson micro-managed Vietnam. Our reliance on letting the military win paid off--in the 1991 Gulf War.

But no longer. Prior to the Iraq War, the generals told Rumsfeld we needed at least 300,000 troops, maybe more. He refused and insisted on no more than half that figure. And we conservatives sided with Rumsfeld over the generals--again, loyalty to the Bush Administration trumped principle.

The conservative movement in America is coming close to destroying itself, sacrificing all its principles and hard-won knowledge in order to remain loyal to the Bush Administration. Not just on Iraq, but on immigration and Federal spending and other issues as well.

I've had enough. My priorities are as follows: I am an American first, a conservative second, and a Bush supporter comes dead last. We conservatives will have to live with our choices for many years to come after Bush has long since gone back to Crawford Texas.


There You Go Again
religiouslib (quote)
if we go back to vietnam, if you check you will find that every single republican in congress voted to stop funding the war in 1973. (/quote)

The vote on S.3394 was 46 - 45 in a Democrat controlled Congress. There were 56 Democrats, 42 Republicans, 1 Independent, and 1 Conservative. The vote was actually cast in 1974. This measure was passed in lieu of H.R. 17234 (which was withdrawn). BTW, the House had 242 Dems, 192 Reps, & Indep.

So does your Lib religion allow you to made totally absurd statements as fact without any penance?

One more contradiction
One more important point:

Until the so-called "neo-conservatives" came along, traditional conservatism was always AGAINST nation-building. In fact, you can find campaign speeches by Bush, and statements he made in his debates with Al Gore, in which Bush himself criticizes nation-building as unworkable and wasteful.

9-11 did not change the fact that nation-building is still a long, heartbreaking, endeavor which takes many years if it's successful at all. Yet the Bush Administration did NOT have plans for this in Iraq after Saddam's fall (we now know this from information declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act), as if building a whole new democracy in Iraq would just proceed smoothly forward as if by magic.

If a DEMOCRAT had been in the White House instead of Bush, pursuing a no-win counterinsurgency war in a possibly hopeless attempt at nation-building, by now all of America's conservatives would be calling for his impeachment.

As far as I can tell, when crunch time comes, party loyalty is all that many conservatives truly care about. The principles they paid lip service to all those years? Just flush them down the toilet if that's what it takes to keep the GOP in power!

SteveL
Not much of a conservative if you think Conservatives are rooting for President Bush. He has a lot of failings in our eyes but with respect to the war he leaves it to the "ACTIVE" duty Generals -- not the retired/dismissed Generals who bailed out when it looked like some major action was coming down the pike. If the were so great why did the run to the Media in violation of UCMJ Article specifically:

Art. 88. Contempt toward officials
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

I would have recalled them to active-duty and court martialed them instead of allowing them to act as 'experts' for CNN et.al.

BTW - no very convincing to start with: "As a lifelong conservative, I am appalled..."

That's almost as telling as a grunt starting off a tale with "This ain't no sh**..."

dogjudge
Your argument is just false. Bush already said he will veto the first "step". The Dems will not push through steps anymore than they'd push through a complete cutoff. So why not just pass a bill that totally cuts off funding. It is the crux of my debate. Dems only care about elections. They will use any means to win elections. Their votes indicate this.

Apoplectic
You may not agree with the first part of my argument, but it's not any more false than your argument is false.

As for Bush "saying" that's he going to veto. Saying and doing are two different things. A lot of posturing goes on with these issues on both sides.

Sir, this is ALL a game of politics. Not as to who is going to get elected, but how we get out of Iraq.

The biggest thing that we would disagree with is "winning". You say that Bush has a plan, I say that he doesn't.

Point of FACT. The other day Gates ANNOUNCED that the tours of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan were going to be increased to 15 months. Today, in the daily press conference, it was announced that when President Bush spoke in front of the VFW, he didn't know about this extension.

I'm sorry, but if this is true, your commander in chief needs to be fired! He hasn't written off on this type of change? Give me a break. He's ticked because he was going to use this extension as a pawn in his fight with Congress about funding.

As for steps. Go back and look at your history. Had the Democrats gone at Nixon right away, he would not have left office. They built up a case against the President, and brought the Republicans over to their side. Sound familiar?

Dogjudge - Cutting off funds
IMO, the the Democrats do not vote to cut off funds for the Iraq war, because they are trying to hold on to both the Democrat moderates and the anti-war left.

A significant number of Democrats ran as moderates, promising not to cut off funds. On the other hand, the Democrats are concerned about the anti-war protests that have been directed at Democrats. IMO, they are scared.

How do they win in '08 if they alienate even a portion of either faction? If they go too far to the left, they will alienate some moderates. If they go too far to the right, the anti-war crowd will cause contention within the party, dissipating energy and resources that they would rather use against the Republicans.

The Democrat's rhetoric has been strong on both sides, with a common strong anti-Bush message. They are spoiling for a fight with Bush, if not expecting Bush to fold, but to at least push public opinion further against Bush.

IMO, some of the attacks in the posts come from questioning the Democrat's motives, as they see the Democrats maneuvering for political position, rather than acting on their convictions.

Which is it?
religiouslib writes: Friday, April, 13, 2007 2:28 PM
*** "wjriii
harry reid is getting to that." ***

Is it the Harry Reid that used "not one more drop of blood" language in a press conference recently, or is it the Harry Reid in the Reid-Feingold measure that pulls troops on March 31, 2008, allowing for spending money for Iraqi troop equipping and training, attacks on Al-Qaeda and defending US installations?

wjriii
See we can agree.

You attribute motives to the Democrats which very well may be true. I can't argue with your reasoning.

Things are WAY TOO complicated in these issues to determine why one person, or group, is taking a particular position. Especially when you start (not you personally) labeling people as Republican/Democrats and liberals/conservatives. Too many people break the mold on both sides. Tendencies hold true, but only up to a point.

To wrjiii/dogjudge
The Democrats have not changed their tune since the war started. The Republicans forced the vote in October. The President had made the case for invasion and the public supported it. About 50% of the Dems voted FOR the war.

As soon as the election was over the Dems started carping on the war, quagmire et al. The war itself started and the Dems screamed quagmire all the way up to the fall of Baghdad. The actual war was over in short order with few casualties.

The Dems then took up another tactic. The war isn't over, Bush is a fool landng on an aircraft carrier. Bush was a fool, but it was in allowing the Dems to set the tone on the war. What we have now is "nation building" which most Americans do not really support, particularly when it costs American lives and tax dollars.

So you can see, the Dems really haven't changed their tune since the war started. They are just using it as a bludgeon against the Republicans and the Republican elites haven't figured out how to offset the MSM carrying the Dems message for them.

Democrats
If Billary Clinton decided to take out Saddam we could be losing 3200 troops a day and the Demoncats would still say its neccessary. It doesnt matter what happens with Iraq short term or long term as long as GWB is President they will never have optimism, They will be defeatist til Hillbillary or Osama Obama pulls out then they claim victory. Then the media will conviently neglect to report the massive increase in death and destruction after we leave.

independant thinker
You're exactly right, especially from a historic standpoint.

Wilson stopped the fighting for a peace treaty in WW1 thus ensuring WW2 would happen.

Truman dicked around in Korea, taking ground, backing off, etc.

JFK left Castro in place after getting cold feet at the Bay of Pigs.

LBJ absolutely screwed Vietnam to the point that it was nearly unwinnable and then Nixon started really bombing the pizz out of the North, and could have won it, but the libstain congress "defunded" it just like they want to do now.

Contrast that to how the GOP wages war.

Lincoln allowed Sherman to rain H*LL on the south.

Reagan nailed Khaddafi, liberated Grenada, did Panama, revamped the military, and ended the Cold War.

Bush I, booted Saddam in a Blitzkrieg worthy of the name.

Bush II has liberated 50 million people whether the libstains like to admit it or not and if they don't stab us in the back like they did in Nam, it'll be won.

wjriii
Maybe Reid is getting to another land deal!

Dems never change
The Quisling socialist pacifists that are the DNC and Party have never changed since the early '60's. It is blame America and surrender. To negotiate with whom should be a question from Russert and all the rest of the slavish MSM? Just who are the leaders of all these Islamofascists? We know as Charles and Gaffney and Emerson and Fouad write that the Islamos are greatly supported by more Muslims than the Dems or the Pubs think, including W. We know that Iran , Syria and other totalitarians are evil and want to kill even the doltish Lefties that whine and kow tow and appease. The public may be slow but it will not like anyone diplomacy or Party which wants our military to be disgraced once again as it was in Nam and in Somalia and by so many Lefty baggy pants diplomats including San Fran Nan. If the Left is soooo worried about the stretching of our troops, why not call for all those troops in Kosovo, France, Germany and in Europe alone, where hundreds of thousands of our military abide and are hated supposedly. Call them to do two things: support Afghan. and an effort to finally destroy all Taliban and cooperate with Pak. to kill OBL and put some of those in Iraq to finish the Surge. Want to bet that the Left will not do that. Not even to supply their 'sainted Afghan. ploy'. Lefties should admit it, they loathe our military and think America should take another defeat to keep us in our place!

Dogjudge - labels
I agree about labels in general. There are differences between individuals in any of these groups.

However, Republican and Democratic labels mean something when it comes to the party line held and acted upon by the leaderships of the House, the Senate and that of the President. That could very well be five positions.

However, the labels Republican and Democrat mean something coming from Reid, Pelosi, Hoyer, McConnell and Bush.

wjriii - labels
Agreed.

I read something recently, I can't remember where, that talked about Republicans being more of a group than the Democrats. I don't mean that in a disparaging way.

It was along the lines that Republicans are more likely to recognize a authoritarian figure and then follow that figure.

I think it was Will Rogers who said something along the lines of, "I don't belong to a political party, I'm a Democrat." When the Republicans can exploit that thought process, they can use it to their advantage.

One basic premise that I feel (my opinion) gets lost in the discussion about the Iraq war, is that people on BOTH sides believe in their convictions about why we need to stay there and why we need to leave. One side isn't "right" and the other "wrong". Different views.

I know when I come here, I'm setting myself up for a difference of opinion. It makes me think. I also know that when I start getting the "islamofascist behind every tree" type logic that I need to cease the discussion, it's not going anywhere.

Dogjudge - Conscription vs. Volunteer
It has been an argument against the Vietnam war that the unwilling were forced to fight and die.

A volunteer military takes way that debate point.

This does not make the death of anyone, draftee or volunteer, any less valuable. It only makes a difference because "involuntary servitude" is not involved.

Wahhabi Allies helping us Lose
Symposium: One Islam?
by Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com, April 13, 2007

Robert Spencer [scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch]: "Thomas Haidon is also unfortunately correct that 'more moderate models of Islam may be susceptible and vulnerable to more conservative models' -- and this is part of the Arabization phenomenon. This is because the proponents of ARABIZATION AND RADICALIZATION present themselves as the exponents of a 'true' and 'pure' Islam, purged of the cultural syncretism that, because it lacks foundation in the Qur’an and the Sunnah, they are able to portray as illegitimate.

For instance, in his delightful book The Caliph’s House, Tahir Shah recounts how WAHHABI RECRUITERS FROM SAUDI ARABIA set up a trailer in a shantytown in Casablanca, from which they endeavored to recruit the locals for the jihad.

Dr. Hans-Peter Raddatz [scholar of Islamic Studies and author of two books on women in Islam]: Age-wise I am in the position to compare the Islam in some key countries like Egypt, PASKISTAN and Saudi-Arabia with the conditions 30 years ago. From my experience I may tell you that Mr. Spencer is quite right to the very point.

What the first two countries have in common is a distinct tendency towards ASSIMILATION TO SAUDI OR RATHER WAHHABI STANDARDS of legal thought and practice ... the stronger the Western modernization pressure, the better the arguments and conditions for shariatic purification, often meaning the increased inflow of Wahhabi money and personnel -- one important part of so-called "Arabization".

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27847

wjriii
Conscripts versus volunteers

Thanks. Yes, I do understand that difference. Especially since I got to watch it first hand, so to speak.

In earlier posts, Ed and a couple of other people started making a point about everyone in Iraq being a volunteer. I've seen others make the same point.

The tone (and perhaps I'm reading things wrong) has been along the lines of well it's okay because they're all volunteers. President Bush actually said something along those lines, as it related to the troops going back to Iraq for their 3rd, or 4th tours.

Given my background, it is something that I take offense to easily.

Well, I guess we've proven to some that opposing views can have reasonable discussions here.

Thanks. Gotta go.

Wahhabi Allies helping us Lose -- 2
Beyond Iraq and Into an Era of Bold Engagement
by Senator Christopher J. Dodd
Council on Foreign Relations, April 12, 2007

The fact is, our real challenges in all of these areas lie not alone with our enemies -- we know who they are.

Our challenges also lie with those we call our friends or strategic allies -- NATIONS LIKE SAUDI ARABIA and Russia who continue to suppress freedom and democracy and permit conditions that allow our enemies to thrive.

What America needs is a President who will INSIST THE HOUSE OF SAUD STOP SENDING MONEY TO TERRORISTS to take up residence elsewhere and start using their resources and efforts to bring stability and peace to the Middle East.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13090

Wahhabi Allies helping us Lose -- 3
Jihadists praised by cleric
by Richard Kerbaj
The Australian, April 14, 2007

THE most senior Muslim cleric in Canberra regularly praises Islamic jihadists in Iraq and Afghanistan in his Friday afternoon sermons. Mohammed Swaiti, who is being investigated by the Australian Taxation Office over claims he failed to pay income tax on thousands of dollars he allegedly RECEIVED FROM THE SAUDI EMBASSY, yesterday called on God to grant "victory to mujaheddin (Muslim holy warriors)" worldwide.

"God grant victory to the mujaheddin in his name in all places," he called out twice in Arabic over a microphone at Abu Bakr mosque in Yarralumla in front of about 500 worshippers. "God grant victory to mujaheddin in PALESTINE, CHECHNYA, KASHMIR, AFGHANISTAN, AND IRAQ"

The tax office, which refused to comment on its inquiry into Sheik Swaiti, is investigating allegations that he failed to declare clerical allowances of up to $30,000 a year, allegedly paid to him by the Saudi Government's Dawah (donations) Office. It was also alleged that Sheik Swaiti had BEEN ON THE SAUDI PAYROLL FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS and had failed to declare payments he received from officiating at wedding ceremonies.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21554201-601,00.html

Gunny G
It is pretty clear to all rational minds Iraq good or bad will not be resolved for years to come. What makes me sick is how predictable the dems will be when its over: If theres success they will claim its because they got involved and made a difference. If its unsucessful they claim its Bush's fault theres nothing they could do to change it.
So in fact they win either way...Its sad. I just wonder if God forbid Hillary or her buddy Osama wins the presidency and Iran starts lobbing nukes around whether they will wage war or bow down to defeat

dogjudge
Hate to beleagure but you said.

"If they put a no-strings attached, "clean", funding cutoff bill up, it would be voted down or vetoed. There is little likelihood that they'd be able to override a veto.

If they take this in "steps" they are more likely to be able to get what they want."

I am saying that they are not more likely to get what they want by taking this in "steps" because the President has already said he would veto and they don't have the overriding votes. Do you really believe their "steps" bill is any less likely to be vetoed than the total cutoff would be? (you don't have to answer because we both already know the answer). Therefore, as I said, your logic was false.

Dogjudge - labels redux
The funny thing is Republicans see themselves as more scattered than Democrats.

I see a much more aggressive effort to hold Democrats to the party line. There are no absolutes, but there are tendencies. Abortion is one issue. There may be pro-life Democrats, but try to get someone to say that they want Roe v. Wade overturned. Another was the dumping of Leiberman over the Iraq war.

Current heated differences between Republicans include government spending levels and illegal immigration.

IMO, Republicans suffer liberals much more than Democrats suffer conservatives. Republican examples include Hagel, Chaffee and Snow. How long would they last in the Democratic party if the roles were reversed?

Will Rogers had a point, but it seems that now, the Democrats seem to have pulled together somewhat since then.

independant
That is what the Dems are trying to do. They want it both ways. They benefit the most by having us fail in Iraq, so they are pushing for that. Just in case it succeeds though, they have to position themselves to take credit. Hence the pullout dates in 08. It accomplishes both. It certainly undermines the mission so increases the chance of failure. At the same time, if successfull, they will claim it was the date certain that motivated the Iraqi gov't to finally act. (Note, they will still claim their threat of retreat was enough when their bill fails)

Vespanat - Right back at you :-)
vespanat writes: Friday, April, 13, 2007 2:14 PM
*** "It Must Be...
...great to be a pro war conservative. All you have to do is say everything is going swimmingly in Iraq, any evidence to the contrary is merely nonsense contrived by the "liberal" media" ***

I can say exactly the same for anti-war liberals.

It must be great to be an anti-war liberal. All you have to do is say everying is going wrong in Iraq, supported by selective reporting by the liberal media.

Now, where has that gotten us?

Krauthammer partly to blame
I'm not a Democrat, never voted for Clinton, but this war in Iraq is an outrage. And I hold people like Krauthammer partly responsible. These were the guys in the media who were allied with the conspirators in the Administration, especially the Pentagon, that misled us into this quicksand.

Among the real reasons we went in, these five: (1) arrogance; (2) ignorance; (3) oil; (4) Israel; (4) profiteering.

Let's review what the Iraq War has achieved:
(1) the death of Saddam and his equally evil sons;
(2) 3000 innocent US military killed, over 20,000 injured, many maimed for life.
(3) tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed;
(4) alienation of most of our allies who had gone with us into Afghanistan, something we had to do after 9-11 - attack the terrorists;
(5) the USA now among the most disrespected countries in the world, with only Israel, North Korea and Iran ranking lower'
(6) Iran emboldened and more powerful;
(7) Iraq likely to become an Islamic theocracy, while before Saddam was a secularist despised by bin Laden as an infidel. Women, by the way, were treated quite well in Saddam's time - did not need to be covered and usually weren't. Christians treated well, also.
(8) Osama bin Laden still missing;
(9) USA spending billions upon billions, going deeper and deeper into debt - a trillion or more before we get out of Iraq;
(10) military-industrial complex (remember Ike's warning) pocketing billions in profit, some of it stolen;
(11) American people, united after 9-11, now in bitterly opposing camps;
(12) burden of Iraq falling on very few Americans - the rest living as usual;
(13) war now on two fronts, with the Taliban and Al Qaeda reemerging in Afghanistan while our attention has been on Iraq;
(14) Israel is in greater danger, along with our other Middle East allies. The Israeli lobby, of course, was a key advocate of the Iraq invasion - with such Pentagon heavyweights as Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Wurmser, Abrams, etc.
(15) we had been warned about WMDs and assured by many 'experts' - Chalibi, Wolfowitz, etc. - that we would be welcomed with flowers, that the war would be over very soon, that Iraqi oil would pay for the war, and other nonsense.

That's 15 - a round number so we'll leave it at that. Should we be paying any attention to Krauthammer and those others who had beat the war drums for this stupid blunder?

I don't think so.

Libs missing the point?

Anyone who thinks the Dem plan is to bring the troops home from Iraq is missing the point so succinctly made by Dem.Sen. & presidential candidate Joe Biden who said today -

"The US military should act now to stop atrocities in Sudan's Darfur region."
AND
"I think it's time to put force on the table and use it...it's a moral imperative."

THIS is the REDEPLOYMENT plan of the Dems...the same troops that the Dems tell us are "stretched too thin" and are "overworked" will now be sent to Darfur if the Dem leadership has its way!

At least in Iraq I can see a VITAL interest in keeping the oil from falling under the control of Iran/Syria and driving gas prices to triple what we are payiing now which would KILL our economy!

Other than the 'beautiful people' (Gen.George Clooney, Admiral Angelina) wantinh US involvement in a place where there is already a 'robust' UN force in place...what is our national interest in Darfur?

Let Angie adopt the entire country for all I care...
If we leave Iraq Biden will see "atrocities" like one has nightmares about...the insurgency will follow us to Sudan anyway, while the Syrian & Iranian Armies overruns Iraq first, Saudi Arabia next and then blow Israel off the face off the map as they've promised.

Some plan.


roy
Or, maybe the real reason we went into Iraq was to try and establish a democracy that could counteract the spread of radical sunni islam, potentially cause a democratic revolution in neighboring Iran and Syria

Dark Messia
Clearly you know your position is evil and anti every thing that is just and right otherwise you would have chosen a more apropriate name for yourself.

apopletic
if your maybe is true than why did not bush and republicans initiate that discussion.

all you have to do is read woodwards second book on the bush administration.
wolfowitz is quoted in a meeting woodward attended as saying "of the four reasons to invade the threat of nuclear wmds is the only one we can sell".

that book by the way, not the third, had bush's stamp of approval on it.

magnificus
if your doom and gloom scenario is something you believe in why don't you do something about it.

blackwater security will send you to iraq immediately.
if you are too old and frail at least you should have the courage of your convictions and call for the nukeing of tehran, sadr city, sunni triangle and mecca immediately.

if not you are nothing but a lot of hot air with no belief system to speak of.

magnificus
if your doom and gloom scenario is something you believe in why don't you do something about it.

blackwater security will send you to iraq immediately.
if you are too old and frail at least you should have the courage of your convictions and call for the nukeing of tehran, sadr city, sunni triangle and mecca immediately.

if not you are nothing but a lot of hot air with no belief system to speak of.

religiouslib
Isn't it obvious? The Iraqi's would reject it out of hand. People claim "puppet regime of the US" now. Imagine if Bush came out and said it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it makes a heck of a lot more sense than going after WMD. Everyone knows Sadaam had WMD. He used them on Iran and on his own people. If he was going to give the terrorists WMD, he would have as soon as the gig was up. If we were worried about him passing WMD, certainly giving a date certain to attack would significantly increase the likelyhood of just that happening. Also, why wait until 2003? As much as you liberals like to think Bush is some village idiot, he's certainly run circles around the libs on many occasions. Other reasons, to enforce the UN resolutions and thereby uphold the integrity of the UN? Not likely. Revenge for the attempt on his dad? Why wait until 2003? Why not immediately after the fall of Afganistan. If the goal was to transform the middle east using the same approach we did to defeat communism, Iraq was the logical and perfect choice. They were quite secular, thereby reducing the chance of getting a radical govt elected. We had diplomatic cover to do it via the cease fire violations and UN mandates, and they are the heart of the middle east bordering Iran who already had an underground democracy movement, and Syria who also has an underground democratic movement.

apoplectic
Sorry - I'm sure you're a decent, patriotic, God-loving loyal American, but your views are badly skewed.

First, see my message somewhere up above. I outline five of the causes and 15 of the "accomplishments" of our war in Iraq.

Second, Saddam was vile, of course, but where do you think he got his gas to gas the Kurds? USA! We were his allies against Iran. Weird that we didn't criticize him then. Rumsted went to Baghdad to express our friendship! Now, we were playing footsy with Iran at the same time - remember the Iran-Contra scandal? We were selling Iran arms!

Third, Iraq obviously was far from ideal as the place to invade, as time has proven. Our government was criminally ignorant of what was going on there. We could and should have waited for the inspectors to finish their job. But the chickenhawks wanted war!

Fourth, the war was based on lies. Not Bush lies. The poor man meant well but was overwhelmed by three groups: (1) Chalibi and other exiles who craved power in Iraq; (2) Israel-firsters whose main interest was in killing off an enemy of Israel; (3) some part of the military-industrial complex which always sees war as an opportunity to make plenty of money. And in that they are succeeding, money paid for by the blood of our young military.

Fifth, they certainly calculated wrong when they thought Iraq would become a secular state. Shows that they knew nothing about the sectarian divide and the power of the majority Shia. We are more likely to get an Islamic state in league with Iran. A setback for Iraq, for women, for Christians in Iraq, etc.

Lots more to say but I must go to bed soon. One point that always has amused me. We're told that Saddam's military shot at US planes before the invasion thousands of times! Either they were mighty poor shots or they wanted to miss. My guess is the latter. Iraq was in enough trouble already.

Keep reading and learning. I'm sure you will come to see that the attack on Iraq was a major victory for bin Laden and a serious blunder by the Bush Administration. Too bad that George W. didn't consult with his Dad who had the insight not to go to Baghdad!

Hope you were careful all day - Friday the 13th. I carefully avoided all black cats.

Keep smiling.



religiouslib
take a flying leap.......

I served this country so freaks like you (though most likely your parents) could spit on me...so stuff your sanctimonious crap...

AND THESE ARE BIDENS OWN WORDS...so if you think the doom & gloom isn't coming when the Dems are planning THIS STUFF then you are an A$$

"The US military should act now to stop atrocities in Sudan's Darfur region."
AND
"I think it's time to put force on the table and use it...it's a moral imperative." Joe Biden 4/13/07


religiouslib

Got an idea for YOU...

Why don't you sign up to hand out food in Darfur...then you won't even need a weapon...I'm sure they'll welcome as brave and compasionate as you with open arms. Then you can spread some of that ol' time religiouslib crap around Sudan and see how long you last.

Biden
Like LBJ wants to play General... The dems are great at losing, especially the Lib Dems. Because they don't care how many get killed so long as they further their own agenda...been that way since the 60's...some things never change.

When a President gives up his seat to the opposing party in wartime...the war is ALWAYS escalated because the NEW party can fall back on the old "not our war" excuse when they blow it.

All Biden is saying is lets move the war to another place. Great strategy. I guess every man has his Napoleon moment and his Waterloo waiting.

Same for all the Libtard candidates.
Hollywierd wants Darfur...thats where the Dems get their money (Clooney etc) so the Dems are just PUPPETS of the LOONEY LEFT running Hollywierd right now! And your philosophy fits right in!!

Roy
Who cares wgere he got his gas...
The past is gone and you should be thinking about your future.
Whatever mistakes were made are in the history books but what is the sense in writing the next chapter as another mistake?
That is the difference between Liberals and Conservatives.
Liberals toss in the towel when they think things are tough without really putting any thought to how tough they could be once the towel hits the mat.

religiouslib
One last thing...

If you think using nuclear weapons is an answer then you've got deep psycholigical problems and YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP!

BTW...what would Al and your Global Warming buddies think of that? You might get booted from the Enviro-meetings if they knew you even thought about using a nuke. Especially when there is no call for it....YET.

Roy
Sorry, but I think it is your views that are skewed. Bush was overwhelmed by Chalabi? What was to be gained? Because he wanted to be friends with Chalabi? That doesn't say anything about the motive to attack iraq. What was going to be achieved? Because of Israel? Again, what was to be gained? What was Israel doing or giving in return? Because of the war industry? Some think Bush is an idiot but come on. Do you really believe he'd take that big of risk in his first term for a few campaign contributions? You would do much better going with Big Oil on this one. They certainly stood to gain a heck of a lot more than the war industry. If there is one thing Bush has been consistent on through all of this it has been fighting the WOT. Frankly, with your reasoning, the risks far outweighed the benefits and are inconsistent. Three disjointed reasons just overwhelmed him? My theory is far more consistent and the potential benefits far outweigh the significant risks.

Roy
Sorry, but I think it is your views that are skewed. Bush was overwhelmed by Chalabi? What was to be gained? Because he wanted to be friends with Chalabi? That doesn't say anything about the motive to attack iraq. What was going to be achieved? Because of Israel? Again, what was to be gained? What was Israel doing or giving in return? Because of the war industry? Some think Bush is an idiot but come on. Do you really believe he'd take that big of risk in his first term for a few campaign contributions? You would do much better going with Big Oil on this one. They certainly stood to gain a heck of a lot more than the war industry. If there is one thing Bush has been consistent on through all of this it has been fighting the WOT. Frankly, with your reasoning, the risks far outweighed the benefits and are inconsistent. Three disjointed reasons just overwhelmed him? My theory is far more consistent and the potential benefits far outweigh the significant risks.

To Matthew
There is no "horrible news" out of Iraq. Horrible means hundreds killed every day. Check out the Sudan or North Korea or other human rights crises around the world. Horrible is war fifty years ago when cities were nuked, carpet bombed, fire bombed, and invaded and raped.

That's war.

We've got it lucky.

As for our all-volunteer force being extended. I come from a military family and can tell you straight up: no one in the military today signed anything that did not spell out their terms of service.

If you want to challenge me on that, ante up then.

This war is a cakewalk. We've got a flag in the Middle East. Bravo to Bush for planting it there. We have a history with Iraq. After 9/11, Hussein had to step in line or lose everything.

He chose the latter.

ed
any number of relief agencies have reported hundreds of deaths a day for the past year.

so we have planted a flag in iraq huh.
and just how long do you think we will be there?

i thank you for your service but when a war is handled as incompetently as this one was it has to be called horrible.

if bush and company had prosecuted this war properly we would not even be having this discussion and every single military personel i have heard in the past year has confirmed that.


religious lib
How long were we in Germany and Japan after we invaded and occupied both of those dictatorships.

Oh right, we're still there. We've go over 35,000 troops in Germany and well over 100,000 troops in Japan. In fact, we have more troops in Japan than in Ira

Korea
Oh yeah religious lib, we also have about 35,000 troops on the DMZ between the two Koreas. Why don't you moan about "how long" we're going to be there. It's been half a century now and we didn't even win that war. Technically, it has not even ended.

And you're moaning about five years in Iraq in a war we clearly won in about one month?

As for your "hundreds of deaths per day" - spare me. The only time Iraq had hundreds of deaths per day was when Hussein's Republican Guard was eating American airstrikes during major combat operations.

How does Iraq stack up to daily deaths in Darfur? How about Somalia, when Aideed systematically starved over 300,000 Somalians?

For that matter, which do you think was deadlier, Baghdad or New Orleans the year of the hurricanes?

This "war" is a cakewalk. I would rather be in Iraq right now than at Guadalcanal circa WWII, or in the trenches of WWI, or in the jungles of Vietnam with combat casualties clicking off at the tens of thousands, or in Korea when the Chinese pushed us south.

Why don't you go to military.com and watch the tons of videos of our soldiers and see what they say?

Idiiotic remark from Joe about service
By that rationale, why don't we strap you in a bullet proof vest, blue uniform with badge, and stick you in a police car in whatever neighborhood you live in because, you know, you believe in law enforcement right?

Give me a break. The notion that someone who is not in Iraq cannot comment on it is like saying we can't talk about the moon landings because we never went.

Absurd.

Liberals are soooooooo pissed that we have an all-volunteer force of professionals, with great re-enlistment numbers (particularly with the Marines). It's got to be killing them that they can't use the draft as an issue.

ed
so why don't you go to bagdad for vacation.

you could also go to this website and hear other stories from vets who have been where you dare not go.

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

ed
or you check out this website.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net

religious lib
I don't have to go because I'm fortunate to have men and women signing up in record numbers to take on that job.

I don't have to police the town I live in because people have signed up for that job too.

When a fire breaks out near here, I am not obligated to handle it because men have signed up for that dangerous job. The most dangerous in America. In fact, it's more dangerous than being in the armed forces.

I don't have to pick up my garbage because professionals also do that every week.

I don't have to go undercover in dangerous cities to conduct drug busts because, get this, professionals have got that covered.

What's your problem? Is any of this getting through?


ed
i was only saying that if you agree with mccain that things are so rosy go to bagdad and enjoy yourself.

i wasn't suggesting you go and fight because according to you there is nothing but some minor little skirmishes going on.

by the way the "signing up in record numbers" bit is simply a lie put out by the biased conservative media to fool folks like you.

the army has had to downgrade its qualifying standards and has paid more than 100 million dollars in bonuses to keep people in.

if it is at an all time high, why are we extending tour of duties?

religiouslib
I actually have considered going to Iraq - as a civilian contractor. Civilian security guards in Iraq can make $1,000 - $1,500 a day!!

I met a truck driver who has considered going. Truck drivers can make $100k annually and get this, like other civilian contractors their wages are not taxed!

There are thousands upon thousands of Americans in Iraq right now who aren't even enlisted. They're building infrastructure, driving trucks, guarding VIPs...you name it. We have American doctors in Baghdad right now.

Apparently it's not the hellhole you make it out to be to these individuals.

ed
did you see the congressional hearings about the blackwater security company with family member after family member denouncing the company for lack of security.

why do you thing they pay that much to drive trucks or be security guards. use your common sense man.

i hardily recommend you go and will look forward to you reporting back on how safe it is there.just make sure you take out a good life insurance policy for your wife and kids.

apoplectic
You may not agree with my points, but please do not tell me that my logic is false.

If you want to go down that road, I am more than happy.

Proposing steps to try to convince the Republicans to support the idea of a funds cutoff has nothing to do with correct, or incorrect logic.

You may not agree with that idea, but that tactic has been used numerous times in Congress.

Now you want to tell me where my LOGIC is false?

Ed - $100,000/yr. truck drivers
As a taxpayer, doesn't it concern you that we're paying people $100,000.00/yr. to drive trucks in Iraq?

Isn't this the type of things that GIs used to do all of the time.

So why are we going this way?

Not enough troops?
Enrich politically connected contractors?
Why stay in the Army when you can make SIGNIFICANTLY more money with a contractor?

Jobs in Iraq
First off, Blackwater Security is heavily involved in direct action events. What this means is that they are paid to engage and kill the enemy. Most of them, if not all of them, are ex-Special Forces. You will find no shortage of videos of them killing the enemy on military.com's "Shock and Awe" section. You'll note they commonly work alongside of Marines and other enlisted soldiers.

Congressional hearings are a farce. Nothing more than a puppet-show by liberals or anti-war advocates in which to trot out grieving mothers whose sons would probably bitchslap them for whining over something they volunteered to do.

If it's so dangerous, why are civilians signing up by the thousands? And why are you whining that people elect to go on their own accord?

It's more dangerous to be a logger or fisherman in America than a contractor in Iraq.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that in 2003 5,575 fatal injuries in the fishing industry occurred on the job. In 2004, the number was 5,703.

American loggers recorded 85 fatalities in 2004 (92.4 deaths for every 100,000 workers) more than 22 times the rate among all workers. American aircraft pilots matched that death rate of 92.4 and 109 of them died on the job.

Just to put those numbers into perspective, after half a decade in Iraq, the civilian contractor death toll is around 300. Statistically, it's more deadly to be a pilot in America than a contractor in Iraq. Even more, it's deadlier to be a fisherman in America than a soldier in Iraq!

taxes and Iraq
dogjudge: "As a taxpayer, doesn't it concern you that we're paying people $100,000.00/yr. to drive trucks in Iraq?"

Not any more than it would've bothered me to pay for the reconstruction of Japan had I been a taxpayer during WWII.

I'm more bothered by a lying stripper and power man prosecutor wasting over $1 million taxpayers' dollars in an attempt to prosecute three innocent white boys in a court fraud that laster over one year.

I'm more bothered by spending $100 billion tax dollars on the "international" (READ: America foots the bill) space station, essentially a tin can in orbit used to grow tomato plants and conduct "experiments."

More than just about anything, I am extremely bothered by the taxpayer burden of the atrocious pension plan for US senators.

You're worried about an American truck driver working in a dusty warzone in 120 degree heat and living in a prefab metal container while helping rebuild a country making $100k annually but you're not worried about paying $1 billion PER LAUNCH of the space shuttle?

Man!

Magnificus and Apoplectic
Magnificus: Interesting how Bush & Co got us into this Iraq mess and now: (1) they don't want to talk about how we got there; (2) they blame others because we don't have a plan to get us out. The Bush crowd should have had such a plan before we went in!

Apoplectic: True, there was no advantage to listening to Chalibi, but Bush & Co obviously was hoodwinked by such dubious 'experts'. As far as Israel is concerned, if you don't understand the powerful influence of the Israel lobby in both parties you have a lot to learn. Have you read the study Walt and Mearsheimer (not sure I have those names quite right)? Oil was another factor, and I tried to cover that by referring to the military-industrial complex. Remember how Wolfowitz said that Iraq oil would easily pay for the war. Have you noticed your price at the pump recently?

(And, by the way, few people seem to know that of the five countries from which we import most oil only Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. Our largest suppliers are Canada and Mexico. Saudi Arabia third. Then Venezuela and Nigeria. But we usually blame only the Arabs for higher prices.)

Here we are, caught in a quagmire, and those who got us there want to blame those who warned: Don't go there! Turning logic on its head.

I have no fondness for either party. People like Lieberman and Clinton are part of the crowd that got us into this mess, and I hold them all accountable. At least some of them (e. g. Edwards, Hagel) are ready to admit their mistake. Bush, Cheney and friends are beyond stubborn. Wolfowitz fled the coop to become the corrupt head of the World Bank. Perle, Abrams, and other Israel-first neocons now want us to get tough with Iran and Syria. Are these people that stupid? The only rational way out is to negotiate our way out. Do you think the Iranians really are crazy enough to want war? Or the Syrians? Our real enemy, Al Qaeda, is rising up again in Afghanistan and in various specific spots elsewhere in the world. Syria and Iran sided with us after 9-11. Why do we want to take on the entire world? What kind of idiots do we have in Washington, anyway?

All for now. Keep smiling.

Deadliest Catch
More American fisherman died last year from on the job fatalities than all the coalition deaths (both combat and accidental) from half a decade of being in Iraq.

Is that just not stunning?

It's safer by far to be a Marine in Baghdad than a fisherman in Maine.

Ed - Apples and Oranges
You complain about various programs that you disagree with and the money spent there. I understand that.

At the same time, Iraq is a WAR. You either fight a war, or you don't fight a war. You don't half fight a war.

If you can't see that there is something fundamentally WRONG with paying people $100,000.00/year because you don't want to bite the bullet and FIGHT a war, there's nothing that I can do to make you understand the difference.

There's a GIGANTIC difference between a grunt, who drives a truck and makes next to nothing, while someone else is making $100,000.00/year because we're unwilling to get more soldiers.

The job of a soldier
Private companies working with the US Army Corps of Engineers have a long history of nation building in war torn areas. Why are we paying $100k for truck drivers instead of using grunts? Easy - because the grunts are being paid to be, get this, soldiers. Their job is driving Humvees and manning .50 cals and providing security, not running around in 18 wheeler convoys.

Grunts should be toting SAWs and manning checkpoints as well as conducting raids and arrests, not working as subcontract administrators, buyers, pest control technicians, legal advisors, truck drivers, telecommunications people, and maintenance workers.

Give me a break.


Regarding Iraq as "war"
I've stated repeatedly that Iraq is not a war, but a nation-building exercise with a giant security detail.

If a suicide bomber running into the Red Zone and killing people makes Iraq a war, then Israel is a war zone. Beirut is also a war zone. Algiers and Morocco are war zones.

War is having front lines, running massive operations, and having tons of casualties. There are no front lines in Iraq, the last big op ended when Baghdad fell, and statistically speaking, there are no mass casualties. We lose more soldiers to accidents than to the enemy.

Do you know what the deadliest day for the US military in Iraq was? It was Thursday, Jan 27th 2005. A CH53 helicopter went down with 31 troops on board, killing all.

The cause? Bad weather.

Mother nature killed more US troops in one day in Iraq than Al Queda or Sunnis.

You call this a war? Where's the war? Our soldiers are providing security and police detail. Sure, some ops are run against safehouses and to find hostages, but where's the war?




Iraq vs New Orleans
Anyone remember this story from MSNBC?

"NEW ORLEANS - In the last week more Americans have died in New Orleans than in Iraq. Since Dec. 29, there have been eight military deaths. In the Big Easy, there have been 14 murders."

Do you see what I am saying to you dogjudge?

We lost 241 servicemen in one day in Beirut in 1983. We didn't even consider that a war. It takes about 4 months in Iraq to equal that number.

The Pentagon repeatedly (and correctly) labels our involvement in Iraq as a "low intensity conflict." Iraq is a piece of the larger war on terror, but in and of itself it is not in a state of war any more than Afghanistan is in a state of war.

The war on terror is much like the international war on piracy of the 19th century (TRIVIA: The US Navy was formed to fight piracy). It is nebulous, it involves many countries and fronts, and it is low intensity. The US combat deaths in Iraq are still lower than the death toll of 9/11 after half a decade!

Ed
How do you have the guts to state such outragous lies? "I don't have to go because I'm fortunate to have men and women signing up in record numbers to take on that job."

Oh really? That must be why the army has lowered it's admission standards-high school diploma no longer required, minimum acceptable score on military aptitude tests lowered, most criminal convictions now overlooked, raised the maximum age at which you can enlist from 35 to 37 then to 42, now offers bonuses up to $20,000 to re-enlist, increased rotation time spent in Iraq from 9 to 12 to now 15 months, many soldiers are getting less than the 12 months of recouperation/training between deployments that the army itself says is required to maintain mental health, many new recruits are not getting full training before being deployed to Iraq- I could go on but I will only mention one other sign of how well recruiting and re-enlistment efforts have been: STOP LOSS! (I am still a little confused how the gov. can enforce this policy. It is my understanding that there is nothing in the agreement signed upon entering military service that gives the gov. this power.) The reality is not 100% of the American military personel in Iraq are VOLUNTEERS. The members of the Ready Reserve who have been called up aren't exactly "volunteers" either.

ed
first you seem to eliminate wounded from your frivilous statistics. have seen those numbers?

there are over 50000 wounded civilians and military who will never be the same again.

i tell you what my friend.
are you a parent.

would you rather have your child grow up to be a fisherman in maine or a grunt in bagdad.
now you seem fanatical enough to answer bagdad but you give that choice to any mother and you will get a different answer.

here is the kicker.

you wrote:
We lose more soldiers to accidents than to the enemy.


that is an out and out lie and when you say something like that you lose all credibility and all your statistics are now in doubt.


here is the true number as of 6 months ago.

Of the 2,645 deaths in Iraq, 2,104 have been in combat and 541 were the results of accidents, illnesses, suicides and other factors.


now you are either a liar or badly misinformed.

Best Military in World and All Volunteer
Former Rep,

No matter how you spin it, they're all volunteers, reservist included. Do you think these individuals just sign up for years without reading what they're signing?

As for those enlisted, they're better educated and have more college degrees between them than the civilian population, statistically speaking.

So the Army will allow you to join up if you hold a GED? OMG! Call 60 Minutes! They would allow you to lie about your age and sign up in WWII. Are you gonna knock them for that too?

We have a better trained, better equipped, more professional military than any other country on the planet. If you think a guy with a GED can't be trained in months on how to use an automatic weapon and field radio, much less call in a JDAM, you're delusional.

religiouslib,

It's a low-intensity conflict no matter how you slice it religiouslib.

All you're stating is that we lost half as many men in four years in Iraq as we did in four weeks on Iwo Jima.

Read that again.

Perspective on War
I just want to comment here about something I find incredibly disturbing about the "Iraq is a disaster" crowd.

We lost 36,516 American soldiers in 3 years in Korea. That's ten times the number or war dead in four years in Iraq.

Result: We gave up and called it a draw, losing half the peninsula and allowing a communist dictatorship to thrive. One, I might add, that is a massive thorn in our side to this day.

We lost 58,209 American soldiers in the Vietnam War.

Result: We gave up. Communists took over Vietnam.

Now, in four years in Iraq we've liberated 30 million people who voted for the first time (and in greater numbers than our own citizens when adjusted for population). They have a democratically elected government, their former dictator and major thorn in our side and the entire region is now room temperature, and their oil output (despite sabotage and war damage) is about to go beyond pre-war levels and is expected to double pre-war levels by 2011.

This all attained with 1/10th the number of casualties as our war in Korea and 1/20th those of our war in Vietnam, both of which we lost.

This is as good as war gets. Anyone who says otherwise has absolutely no perspective on war. War is a city getting wiped out. War is thousands dead weekly, not in four years. The death toll from four years in Iraq pales in comparison to just one operation run in WWII.

Lots of sobbing, zero perspective
karennkc,

Since you take "the paper" as gospel, did it mention that everyone who signs up for military service is given the terms of that service? The United States Army Reserve will have been around for exactly a century in just one year. You act like it was formed yesterday and thrust upon unknowing enlistees.

That in itself is laughable. But let me spell it out for karenkc:

All United States Army soldiers sign an initial eight year service contract upon entry into the military.

After the expiration of the initial eight year service contract, soldiers who elect to continue their service may sign subsequent contracts consecutively until they finally leave the service; however, officers may have the option to opt for an "indefinite" contact, in which case the soldier remains a part of the military until they retire, are removed from the service for cause, or elect to leave the service.

Hope that helps.

By the way karenkc, we have 47,000 active duty soldiers right now in Japan. We have 70,000 active duty personnel in Germany.

Didn't we end that war over 60 years ago?

We have 33,000 soldiers ready to fight right now in Korea. Didn't we end that war half a century ago?

We are just shy of 1 million active duty personnel in the United States.

That's ONE FRIGGIN MILLION, ten times the amount in Iraq.

And to you our military is "stressed?" LOL!

As for shooting North Korea refugees, that's probably a lie on your part. I've yet to see it on the Web. Why don't you focus on the millions of North Koreans Kim has murdered instead?

Oh right, America is the evil in the world, not some freakish, murderous communist dictator who treats his people like dirt.




ed
i notice you changed the subject when i caught you in one of your many lies.

when you lie you lose all credibility.
your argument is simply silly.

this was a pre-emptive war that was sold to the american people as one thing and turned out to be another.

you cannot compare this to any other war my friend and that is why your ilk has become irrelevant.
the american people will not put up with americans dying, no matter what the scale, for something they don't believe in and because of all the lying by bush and company the american people do not believe in bush or this war the same way no one here can ever believe you again.

Poor karennkc
Once an irrelevant Leftinistra enemy of the state, always an irrelevant Leftinistra enemy of the state.

Go see your Kommisar...the Red Krakkers await you.

LOL!!!

Anti-war movement in US
religiouslib: "the american people will not put up with americans dying, no matter what the scale, for something they don't believe in"

That explains the massive protests at the capital religiouslib. That explains the re-election of George W. Bush. That explains this:

"The Marine Corps is reporting the highest reenlistment rate in its history."

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=462167b915af8f04&ei=VqAhRsLHGsCGswHGq9S0Cw&url=http%3A//www.hernandotoday.com/columnists/MGBZQ3G4NZE.html&cid=0

And I disagree with your premise. I think Americans will absolutely tolerate dead soldiers for things they don't believe in. How many could even find Korea on a map during the time we were losing tens of thousands of soldiers there? How many years did the Vietnam War last? A decade?

Did Americans "believe" in WWI? How about the Spanish-American War?

Know what US casualties were in the Spanish American War? 3,289 in less than four months.

Yes, the anti-war protests are just deafening religouslib!!!


The Best in the World
karenkc,

Would you rather be in Iraq as a soldier with the South African Defense Force or a member of the US military?

We've got the best in the world. Just a US military helmet we provide soldiers is light years beyond the crap that many other armed forces the world over wear.

ed
scroll up a few posts and re-read the post from former rep never a dem and notice that he thoroughly debunked your highest re-enlistment claim.

again you have lost all crediblity.

as far as your red herring about the anti-war movement here is the latest gallup poll numbers o what america believes about this war.

B. Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq no later than the fall of 2008



Favor


Oppose


No opinion

2007 Mar 23-25


60%


38


2

TREND FOR COMPARISON: Setting a time-table for withdrawing all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of next year



Favor


Oppose


No opinion

2007 Mar 2-4


60%


39


1

2007 Feb 9-11


63%


35


2

C. Requiring U.S. troops to meet strict readiness criteria before being deployed to Iraq



Favor


Oppose


No opinion

2007 Mar 23-25


80%


15


4

Based on what you have heard or read about the recent surge of U.S. troops in Baghdad, do you think the increase in the number of U.S. troops in Baghdad is – [ROTATED: making the situation there better, not making much difference, or is it making the situation there worse]?




Better


Not making much difference



Worse



No opinion

2007 Mar 23-25


29%


43


22


5


Anti-War Protests Seize US Cities
Not!

Spare me the poll crap. I've seen Gallup polls where the majority of Americans say they want a tax cut then proceed to check off that they want increased government spending.

The best poll of American opinion on Iraq happened years ago. It was called the 2004 presidential election, when 3 million more Americans voted to keep the guy who started it in office: George W. Bush.

Where are the massive body of students keeping all-night anti-war vigils outside the White House?

I was living in New York City after the election during the biggest anti- Iraqi War protest thus far and I can tell you, it was a dud. The Gay Pride Day parade would destroy it in terms of turnout. Ditto for the St. Patty's Day Parade.

Yes, riots at recruiting stations, anti-war protests on campuses, mobilization of the National Guard to quell the anger....this is all happening, right?

Wrong. What's happening is that young America is not even concerned with this low-intensity conflict. Who will win on American Idol is fifty times more important.

Older America, the voters, are concerned but hardly against the conflict. It was they (us) who voted the instigator back for another term and another 4 years in Iraq.

Enlistment in the Armed Forces is healthy, the Marine Corp has never looked better, and Saddam Hussein took a sudden drop with a short stop.

You're living in some dream world. Americans go about their business and quietly support the effort of the troops regardless of an overwhelmingly hostile media and rabid liberals looking to use this totally successful war as leverage to gain power.


ed
you are in the dream world.
there has been another election since 04 and the dems won and guess what ---they were voted in because of the american peoples disgust with the iraq war policy.

every republican leader has acknowledged that.

it is only in your dreamworld that it is all the fault of dems and the media.
that is the lame excuse used for republican failure for years. its getting pretty old.


election
religiouslib,

The Dems were expected to win the last election, which is known in American political circles as a "Sixth Year Election."

I've been involved in politics religiouslibj - the Republican Party ran me for council in a city in New Jersey of over 100,000 souls. I know a bit about this. My ex-wife's mother is a very powerful fundraiser for the Dems as well.

Let me put it simply: when there's a two term prez, it's a virtual certainty that the prez's party will lose the midterms during his second term (thus, the sixth year).

So be careful when you suggest the dem's win was a mandate for Iraq. Hardly. Let me point out some historic Sixth Year Election midterm losses:

Franklin D. Roosevelt's - 1938, Democrats lost 71 seats in the House and six in the Senate.

Dwight Eisenhower's - 1958, Republicans lost 47 House seats, 13 in the Senate.

John F. Kennedy/Lyndon Johnson's sixth year - Democrats lost 47 seats in the House and three in the Senate.

Richard Nixon/Gerald Ford's sixth year in office in 1974, Republicans lost 43 House seats and three Senate seats.

Ronald Reagan, sixth year in office - five House seats and eight Senate seats.

Now, let's get down to brass tacks about what's going to happen to any Iraq withdrawal timetable that's sent to Bush: he'll veto it.

The Democrat Party does not dare defund the war. Sure, they'll talk about it, but if you look at the current legislation they sent the Prez's way, it says "We'll give you $96 billion for the war, just give us a deadline."

He will veto this.

Then the funding measure gets kicked back for another vote. No Dem who wants a job will vote against funding the troops. It will be a HUGE card to play for Republicans in 2008.

Bush is already playing it:

"The longer Congress delays the worse the impact on the men and women of the armed forces will be. I recognize that Republicans and Democrats in Washington have differences over the best course in Iraq, and we should vigorously debate those differences. But our troops should not be trapped in the middle."

What do you think is going to happen when, say, Rudy Guiliani calls Obama or Hillary about their votes on this in a televised debate in 2008?

Hmmmm?


Ed - Service to Your Country
Ed, you've talked a great story about how there's volunteers serving in the military, etc.

As with me, all Americans have wonderful freedoms and opportunities because people are willing to get up off their butt and DO something.

1 - So what is it that YOU'VE done to pay this country back for what YOU'VE gotten? You don't have to serve in the military, tell me something else you've done?

So it's okay, in your small mind, to ask 200,000 people and their families(some who aren't even citizens) to deter the HUGE threat against the United States while 98% of the country sits back and does nothing to contribute?

Sounds like a huge group of blowhard, cowardly, chickenhawks to me.

2 - If this country is in such dire straits that we need to fight off the terrorists around the world, it sure appears that we don't have enough people to do the job. So why hasn't Bush asked for a DRAFT so that we can get this war over and done with? It's better to let it continue half a**ed for 10 years rather than throw everything at it and end it in 2 years?

Two simple questions. You think you MIGHT be able to answer them?

Military Service
dogjudge,

I didn't have to ask 200,000 people to do anything. They all signed up to do whatever the Commander-In-Chief asks.

Here's a famous line from a Tennyson poem, oft repeated in the military. It's from "The Charge of the Light Brigade" - a poem Tennyson wrote about a doomed charge of 600 Brit soldiers:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die"

I first heard the last two lines from none other than Chuck Yeager, when he was asked about what he thought about Vietnam (it's a little known fact that Yeager served in Vietnam).

The point you pansy liberals don't seem to grasp, is that these are no children, these are adult volunteers, and professionals at that. Soldiers may agree or disagree with the foreign policy that sends them to Grenada, Somalia, Iraq, Beirut, etc. but they know full well when they enlist for 8 years of service that they may be asked to charge into the mouth of hell.

Is this lost on you? None of these individuals were forced. They signed up! In fact, enlistment numbers are healthy and re-enlistment numbers are too.

I think it's driving you guys crazy. You want to pin all the evils of the world on Iraq but our servicemen and women are enlisting and re-enlisting and there is no mass protest back at home.

Your side has always had disdain for the military and this attempt to act like they're children forced into war is a typical smear on their volunteering to serve, be it at a base in Okinawa, the mountains of Afghanistan, or a destroyer in the Pacific.

In fact, it's your "high tail it outta there" bull that emboldens our enemies. You're a problem to our military, not me. Your "pull them out now" attitude is not shared by virtually everyone in the military and it would do nothing but embolden the enemy. It's dangerous and disgraceful.



ed
two points

if you are saying republicans win if bush gets the money for the troops than think again. why would the dems want to buy into this war.

if you were in politics you must have lost because you don't understand.
it is win win for the dems.

despite your deluded denials most americans want this war over and if the dems will simply vote bush the funds and it stays bushs war while the dems can tell americans, "we tried but bush was too stubborn" so we have to get a democrat president to end this war.

do you get it.

your continued statement about enlistment has been debunked a number of times.
it is not a logical position.
explain stop loss. that is not re-enlisting that is being drafted.
why are tours being extended to 15 months?
why are felons being allowed in the service"
why did the pentagon give out 100 million dollars in bonuses to re-enlistees.

you are simply an irrational person.

dogjudge's "cut and run" gets us this
To illustrate how the "cut and run" strategy of some here emboldens the enemy, I offer you the words of bin Laden, in a speech where he cites the 1993 U.S. experience in Somalia, when 18 U.S. special operations forces were killed during a raid against a warlord faction in Mogadishu"

BIN LADEN: "Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested the Americans and together with some of the Somali Mujahedeen, God granted them victory. America exited, dragging its tails in failure, defeat and ruin."

Clinton cut and ran in Somalia just like dogjudge and democrats wants to cut and run in Iraq, or, as bin Laden so eloquently stated "dragging its tails in failure, defeat, and ruin."


Ed
Funny. You didn't seem to be able to answer two very, very simple questions.

I'll try repeating them for you. I've phrased them a different way, in hope that you'd understand them this time.

1 - What service have you preformed to pay this country back for the freedoms and opportunities that it has given you?

2 - Volunteers. You talk about volunteers as if they are the ONLY ones who are needed to keep this country safe. I volunteered for the Air Force in '67. Sorry Ed, but that flies in the face of the Republican mantra. There's an Islamofascist behind every tree. We've got to keep our country safe. If the terrorists were at your front door, you'd tell me how you were fighting them. If they were in Princeton, NJ, I'm sure you'd get a group together to keep yourself safe. In every war where the US has truly been in danger, the US has put EVERY able body person into the fray. What makes this war so different that volunteers have to do all the work? Obviously what we're doing now is limited because of people and it isn't working.

We're at war big guy. We need to get 100X the manpower out there and win this thing.

hey ed
how does this match up with your deluded comments.


urches toward a mock village of cinderblock buildings where instructors posing as insurgents wait to test the trainees' convoy protection skills.

The training range is Army, as is the duty itself _ one of the most dangerous in Iraq these days. But the young men and women clad in camouflage and helmets training to run and protect convoys are not Army; they're Air Force.

They are part of a small but steady stream of airmen being trained to do Army duty under the Army chain of command, a tangible sign the Pentagon was scouring the military to aid an Iraq force that was stretched long before President Bush ordered 21,500 additional U.S. troops there.

"What we've seen is the Department of Defense continues to find ways to meet the requirements imposed by the commander in chief," said retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, a senior fellow at Harvard University's Belfer Center in the John F. Kennedy School of Government.

No plans to expand the Air Force's role in convoy operations have been announced since Bush ordered the troop surge in Iraq, but Ryan said the Army and other branches of service have been looking at every possible job that can be shifted _ from the Air Force performing convoy duty to the Navy setting up medical facilities far from waterfronts.

"I can't imagine there are any jobs that they could be doing that they aren't doing, but certainly, that doesn't mean they're not continuing to look to find every possible instance where we can use the full military to solve this problem and not just have this be an Army and Marine Corps issue," he said.

Army Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, the military's chief spokesman in Iraq, said it makes sense to bring in other branches of service for routine activities such as the convoy operations, whereas "it's not something we should do to use them to clear buildings and conduct operations."

The 2,225 airmen who have been trained and sent to run convoys in Iraq and Afghanistan so far remain a relatively small part of the overall force that includes tens of thousands of soldiers, who are sent for longer stretches and more frequent deployments.

The training at Camp Bullis began nearly three years ago, without the elaborate camp that evolved with the persistent need for Air Force help and long before Defense Secretary Robert Gates last week extended active Army deployments by three months.

The Air Force is running a regular rotation of 5-week courses for airmen to work convoys between Kuwait and Iraq. Recently, separate training was created for those being deployed to Afghanistan.

Few of the airmen, who once mostly moved or fixed equipment on Air Force bases, imagined they would be sent to fight in a ground war, but course trainers say it makes little difference.

"We want to be one team, one fight. It doesn't matter which service tape you have on your uniform," said 1st Lt. Matt Addington, the course commander.

Most Air Force enlisted personnel haven't had ground combat training, and the Army has its own sets of weaponry, terminology and command chains _ all of which have to be taught to the airmen.

The Camp Bullis training, in an area named for two airmen killed in Iraq convoys, includes courses on assault rifles, roadside bomb recognition, combat first aid and driving tactics. The airmen live in a camp designed like a forward operating base, sleeping on cots, eating MREs and scrambling to shelter when air raid sirens sound.

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Ed - "Cut and Run" Sound bites
First of all, if you want to talk about fighting for this country, tell me what you've done.

As opposed to chickenhawks one of my duties in the Air Force was to serve on the honor guard in addition to my regular job. I got to proudly BURY lots of Air Force personnel. It drove home the meaning of the term "ultimate sacrifice".

It's apparent that you don't understand what it means to truly commit to a war to win it. President Bush is making political choices to avoid committing this country to winning the war. For goodness sake. He's a lame duck. Get a large force in there and win the war. Then leave.

If Bush, and you, are unwilling to do that, then admit it and leave. You and Bush are afraid to win.

Cut and run. I said nothing about that. You're the one bringing that up.

I've asked you two questions that you keep avoiding. Change the subject to something you think might be favorable to yourself.

Friends of the Enemy
dogjudge, religiouslib,

Once more again, the fruits of cut and run attitude:

BIN LADEN: "Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested the Americans and together with some of the Somali Mujahedeen, God granted them victory. America exited, dragging its tails in failure, defeat and ruin."

And let me just address the absurd liberal notion of "you can't be for the war unless you're serving or you're a coward."

Would this make the civilians who did not serve during WWII "cowards" if they were pro-war, yet not enlisted?

If you weren't enlisted and serving after 9/11, does that mean you're a coward or cannot be for the war in Afghanistan.

This is the absolutely insane notion peddled by the vehement left. They hate that we have an all-volunteer military and that they have no draft whatsoever to dress up. They hate that you sign up for 8 years with the US Army - this is why these two idiots are trying to dress up reservist standards we've had for 100 years as "they hoodwinked the soldiers! BS.

TO BOTH OF YOU, COMPLIMENTS OF THE US MILITARY:

"(PressZoom) - WASHINGTON, April 11, 2007 – All service branches met or exceeded their active-duty recruiting goals in March, but three of the six reserve components missed their targets, Defense Department officials announced yesterday.

“For the month, the armed forces have done extraordinarily well,” Bill Carr, the deputy undersecretary for Military Personnel Policy, said in an interview.

In March, the two ground services exceeded their recruiting goals. The Army had a goal of 5,500 recruits and actually enlisted 5,545 new soldiers, for 101 percent. The Marine Corps had a target of 1,787 and enlisted 1,936 recruits, for 108 percent of its goal.

The Navy and Air Force met their goals of 2,749 and 2,172, respectively."

HOW CAN RECRUITING BE SO SOLID DURING A WAR THAT YOU TWO CHICKENS LABEL A CATASTROPHE??? COULD IT BE THAT YOU'RE OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN OF AMERICA IN TERMS OF THEIR OUTLOOK ON THIS? OF COURSE!

Ed - Make the Commitment to Win?
You simply cannot answer two simple questions.

By your lack of response, am I to assume that you can talk a great story, but when it comes to DOING something you fall short. Another Republican chickenhawk perhaps? I haven't suggested that you need to enlist in the military, I've asked if you've done ANYTHING. Talk is cheap my friend.

You keep belaboring a talking point with NO substance.

Look at my posts. At no point have I talked about cutting and running.

I continue to ask why volunteers should be the ONLY ones suffering the burden of this war. If the country is in such danger, why isn't every able bodied person DOING something to help bring this war to a conclusion? Where are those folks willing to take the salary of an army specialist, but driving a truck? NO, you think they all need to make $100,000.00/year, while army grunts are at poverty levels. What makes these truck drivers special? If it's good enough to get shot at, it sure as hell is good enough to drive a truck.

Why can't you get folks to do logistics support HERE so that more of the armed services can FIGHT?

Why are YOU, and President Bush, afraid to commit the resources needed to win this war? 10X the force that we have and we're out of there.

Why are you folks afraid to make the commitment to win?

dogjudge, heads up: there's no draft
"I continue to ask why volunteers should be the ONLY ones suffering the burden of this war."

Because that's their job bright boy. They're professional soldiers.

Ever thought it crossed their mind when they signed up? That Marines might be sent to die? Imagine that!


You can't even get the numbers right - there's 20 times more soldiers enlisted right now who will never see Iraq. I've already posted our deployment figures. We've got more troops sitting in Japan, Korea, and Germany since wars we fought over half a century ago, than in Iraq right now.

Only 23% of all US servicemen are even stationed on foreign soil, so spare me your umbrella assertions that virtually everyone in the service is pulling duty in Iraq.

Those recruiting and re-enlistment figures must just bite to you.

The Reserves
Reservist Duty section of Dept of Defense For 4/1 enlistment contract for the numbskulls:

Paragraph 10a of the enlistment contract states:

a. FOR ALL ENLISTEES: If this is my initial enlistment, I must serve a total of eight (8) years. Any part of that service not served on active duty must be served in a Reserve Component unless I am sooner discharged.

WHEN YOU SIGN THIS CONTRACT ON THE DOTTED LINE UNCLE SAM OWNS YOUR REAR FOR EXACTLY 8 YEARS UNLESS YOU ARE DISCHARGED EARLIER. WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR EXACTLY ONE HUNDRED YEARS AS OF NEXT YEAR.

Ed
Well, it's been interesting.

Apparently it's okay to sacrifice for your country as long as it is somebody else and not you. Typical.

Lots of BIG talk, but absolutely NO action behind it. Thankfully, this country was founded by, and supported by, people who actually DO something.

It's real easy to be brave when someone else is doing the fighting.

Volunteers versus draftees. You don't get it and you never will. You want freedoms and opportunities, but you don't want to do anything to EARN them.

Give me all of the numbers you want about people enlisting.

As I've said, it doesn't have to be dodging bullets. Bush could require service from able bodied people. There is LOTS of logistic work to be done. Get the equipment built and to the war zone. Lots of bedpans that need to be cleaned at Walter Reed. Lots of floors that need to be washed at VA centers.

Please don't bother me with your tripe any more.

If you aren't willing to DO something, your opinion is worthless.

Now please get the hell out of the way. The rest of us need to clean up YOUR mess.

You like quotes. I'm sure you're familiar with this one. "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way."

You talked about running for office in one of your posts. Why? The country needs people who DO things not just talk about what everyone else should do.

Spare me doc, u can't stand the military
docjudge: "Apparently it's okay to sacrifice for your country as long as it is somebody else and not you. Typical"

The notion that anyone supporting our troops and the war can't do so unless their serving is as absurd as saying that we all have to volunteer as firefighters, cops, undercover DEA operatives, and astronauts (all very dangerous jobs) in order to support firefighting, law enforcement, the war on drugs, and space exploration.

What utter bunk.

All of the above jobs have paid volunteers who willingly sign up to do those jobs. The military is no different.

The only "chicken" here is the likes of you docjudge, who want to turn tail and run from Iraq and give a victory to the terrorists.


Military Re-electing Bush
Troops in survey back Bush 4-to-1 over Kerry

"In the survey of more than 4,000 full-time and part-time troops, 73% said they would vote for Bush if the election were held today; 18% said they would vote for Kerry. Of the respondents, 59% identified themselves as Republicans, 20% as independents and 13% as Democrats."

JUST TO CLARIFY DOCJUDGE, I DON'T SEND TROOPS INTO BATTLE, THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF DOES. SEEMS THEY LIKE THEIR BOSS. TOO BAD FOR YOU.

karenkc is just typical anti-US nutjob
karenkc's mind: "there is rather a disconnect between living the good life here in the U.S. and the very real suffering that other people live through"

THE REALITY:

BILL GATES - American who gives as much as the entire UN to global health:

"The Gates Foundation has quickly become a major influence upon global health; the approximately US$800 million that the foundation gives every year for global health approaches the annual budget of the United Nations' World Health Organization (192 nations) and is comparable to the funds given to fight infectious disease by the United States Agency for International Development. The Foundation currently provides 17% (US$86 million in 2006) of the world budget for the attempted eradication of poliomyelitis (polio)."

WARREN BUFFET - American, charity donations - $41,321,189,039

MICHAEL DELL - American, charity donations - $15,455,224,204

LARRY ELLISON - American, charity donations - $13,851,092,103

AMERICANS DOMINATE THE TOP 10 LIST OF GLOBAL CHARITIES. THE CLOSEST A EUROPEAN CAN COME IS 6TH.

ed
do you realize it is 2007 you seem stuck in 2004.

besides catching you in a lie when you said" more troops have died in accidents than from hostile action"

i proved you were a liar.

you use outdated polls, lie about statistics, and refuse to answer what you are personally doing to support the war.

now watch as ed changes the subject again.

Ed
Although I'm not a Republican, let me give you some advice.

The Republicans need people who can DO things. Not simply sources of hot air.

Please keep showing us "liberals" how YOU'RE going to change things.

We don't have anything at all to worry about with folks such as yourself leading the Republican charge.

ASSumption on your part docjudge
I'm not a republican either. I left the party in 2003 when the Middlesex County GOP in New Jersey's most politically influential county wanted me to abandon my principles and jump through hoops after I won a primary. I told them to go to hell and ran on my own. I didn't get one red cent from them. I thought they were going to sue me because the democrats did just that to one of their candidates for council in a nearby township.

I've since registered as an independent. I tend to vote GOP because most democrats are socialist hypocritical abortion-loving nutjobs. Unfortunately, so are many republicans.

I differ with Bush on tariffs, on the outrageous spending he's done on medicare, education, and just about everything else. I differ with him on immigration. I differ with him on gay marriage.

About the only thing I don't differ with him on is the tax cuts and his handling of the war.

So careful as to how you frame me.

still waiting on ed's response
to dogjudge's questions about what he is doing re:the Iraq War besides sitting behind his computer calling people pansie liberals and friends of the enemy. There are a lot of posts here so maybe I missed it.

A few observations on ed's arguments.

Casuality rates

-No measure of success. We had nearly 600,000 troops deployed in Iraq, 400,000 in Korea, and millions in WW II. Additionally, technology in equipment and and life saving have advanced expodentially since then.

War

-The absence of front lines simply means that we have been fighting a guerilla war.

Stretch Thin

-It's not just the war critics using that phrase. "Our forces are stretched, no question about that." General Robert Gates April 12, 2007.

Resources

-I for one take great pride in the fact that enlistment numbers are good. I think it says volumes about the same young people we complain about. Unfortunately, the commander of the National Guard of my home state recently announced that as a direct result of Iraq his unit had 60% of the equipment needed to respond to a major natural disaster or terrorist attack.

10s of 1000s of dead is a war

-Since the US military doesn't even keep stats on Iraqi casualties they are difficult to quantify. Conservative estimates put the Iraqi death toll at 100,000. Broken down, that is indeed 10s of 1000s per year.



This is as good as war gets-If you consider creating the best recruiting tool for terroism Osama could hope for, I guess you're right there.




right on
Keep telling it like it is, Charles! I appreciate your level headed analysis. When did liberals become "French?" Why the rush to surrender??
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