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Friday, April 06, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Where was the EU in the capture of the British sailors?
by Charles Krauthammer
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Iran has pulled off a tidy little success with its seizure and subsequent release of those 15 British sailors and marines: a pointed humiliation of Britain, with a bonus demonstration of Iran's intention to push back against coalition challenges to its assets in Iraq. All with total impunity. Further, it exposed the utter futility of all those transnational institutions -- most prominently the European Union and the U.N. -- that pretend to maintain international order.

You would think maintaining international order means, at a minimum, challenging acts of piracy. No challenge here. Instead, a quiet capitulation.

The quid pro quos were not terribly subtle. An Iranian "diplomat" who had been held for two months in Iraq is suddenly released. Equally suddenly, Iran is granted access to the five Iranian "consular officials" -- Revolutionary Guards who had been training Shiite militias to kill Americans and others -- whom the U.S. had arrested in Irbil in January. There may have been other concessions we will never hear about. But the salient point is that what got this unstuck was American action.

Where then was the EU? These 15 hostages, after all, are not just British citizens, but under the laws of Europe, citizens of Europe. Yet the EU lifted not a finger on their behalf.

Europeans talk all the time about their preference for "soft power" over the brute military force those Neanderthal Americans resort to all the time. What was the soft power available here? Iran's shaky economy is highly dependent on European credits, trade and technology. Britain asked the EU to threaten to freeze exports, $18 billion a year of commerce. Iran would have lost its No. 1 trading partner. The EU refused.

Why was nothing done? The reason is simple. Europe functions quite well as a free trade zone. But as a political entity, it is a farce. It remains a collection of sovereign countries with divergent interests. A freeze of economic relations with Europe would have shaken the Iranian economy to the core. Yet nothing was done. "The Dutch," reports The Times of London, ``said it was important not to risk a breakdown in dialogue.'' So much for European solidarity.

Like other vaunted transnational institutions, the EU is useless as a player in the international arena. Not because its members are venal but because they are sovereign. Their interests are simply not identical.

The problem is most striking at the U.N., the quintessential transnational institution with a mandate to maintain international peace and order. There was a commonality of interest at its origin -- defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The war ended, but the wartime alliance of Britain, France, the U.S., China and Russia proclaimed itself nonetheless the guardian of postwar "collective security" as the Security Council.

Small problem: their interests are not collective. They are individual. Take the Iranian nuclear program. Russia and China make it impossible to impose any serious sanctions. China has an interest in maintaining strong relations with a major energy supplier, and is not about to jeopardize that over Iranian nukes which are no threat to it whatsoever. Russia sees Iran as a useful proxy in resisting Western attempts to dominate the Persian Gulf.

Ironically, the existence of transnational institutions like the U.N. makes it harder for collective action against bad actors. In the past, interested parties would simply get together in temporary coalitions to do what they had to do. That is much harder now because they feel such action is illegitimate without the blessing of the Security Council.

The result is utterly predictable. Nothing has been done about the Iranian bomb. In fact, the only effective sanctions are those coming unilaterally out of the U.S. Treasury.

Remember the great return to multilateralism -- the new emphasis on diplomacy and "working with the allies" -- so widely heralded at the beginning of the second Bush administration? To general acclaim, the cowboys had been banished and the grown-ups brought back to town.

What exactly has the new multilateralism brought us? North Korea tested a nuclear device. Iran has accelerated its march to developing the bomb. The pro-Western government in Beirut hangs by a thread. The Darfur genocide continues unabated.

The capture and release of the 15 British hostages illustrate once again the fatuousness of the "international community" and its great institutions. You want your people back? Go to the EU and get stiffed. Go to the Security Council and get a statement that refuses even to ``deplore'' this act of piracy. (You settle for a humiliating expression of ``grave concern"). Then turn to the despised Americans. They'll deal some cards and bail you out.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Let's follow the example & surrender!
Great Britain has broken the ice for us by essentially surrendering to the Islamic tidal wave that the Muslim tsunami has launched toward our shores. Iran captured British sailors in waters that were outside of their territory, paraded the captives in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, and then graciously returned the prisoners after their use was maximized. Rather than appearing upset or offended, the plucky British sailors were all smiles and laden with souvenirs, and having shed their military duds for snappy suits, they showed the world how keen it was to be held by a swell bunch of guys like the Iranians. For this unusual hospitality, Tony Blair thanked the Iranians for being such good sports about the whole matter, expressed his hopes that the captives hadn’t been too much trouble, and offered to pay for their boarding expenses out of his own pocket. Blair gushed about what a wonderful people the Iranians were, and basically made it clear that it would be totally okay by him if Iran wanted to commit more mayhem in the region. An evil nation would have retaliated with military action, but Blair once again has shown that the British know just how to achieve peace in out time.

By their acts, the British have finally surrendered to the promoters of Islam. Hopefully, we in the United States will follow this lead and open negotiations for our surrender as well. Speaker Pelosi has paved the way for our capitulation, and she has made it clear that our constitution will be no hindrance to those that wish to obtain peace at any price. Pelosi has demonstrated to the Syrians that we are willing to effect a coup de tat by sidestepping the President and the constitution in an effort to offer concessions to the Muslims, something no other American leader has had the guts to do. Though some might whine about the inappropriateness of the act, the truth is that it is about time that somebody in Washington formally displayed the fact that the executive branch is irrelevant when it interferes with the desires of the party that holds power in Congress. One rarely sees such bold leadership as displayed by Pelosi and the Democrats, for most heads of state are hesitant to concede defeat just to keep from risking injury, especially when they have a vastly superior military and economy as compared to the opposition. But both Democrats and our British cousins are willing to throw in the towel and beg for mercy in an effort to keep any harm from coming our way, and such concern for the citizenry is truly touching. Unlike some stubborn remnants of the old America, Democrats and the British realize that it is much better to live as a slave in a theocracy than to risk death defending some ridiculous notion such as freedom.

In order to show support for our de facto commander in chief, we should waste no time in voicing our approval of the actions that have implied our willingness to formally surrender to Iran and the Muslim world. If we delay, the British might gain more favor with our conquerors by boasting about how they raised the white flag first, and that will mean that the Muslims might like us less than they do the British; something we just cannot risk. For her part, Speaker Pelosi has made some serious inroads by donning her scarf of female humility while touring the lands of our new masters. She has made great efforts to show that we are willing to toss our constitution into the garbage heap in order to circumvent the crazies that would resist Islamic domination, and we cannot afford to lose our Pelosi momentum. We need to get behind her and urge all of our leaders to plead, beg, and grovel at the feet of the prominent Muslim leaders in an effort to obtain mercy on our behalf. Every day that we allow our leaders to resist just makes the Muslims that much angrier, and that just means they might hurt that much more because of our defiance.


Let’s not let Pelosi’s naked grab for the presidency result in failure. Urge your representatives to formally bypass the executive branch in all surrender negotiations, and let’s stop resisting the Muslims before someone else gets hurt. Wouldn’t you rather see your pre-teen daughter married to an octogenarian than to risk offending the Muslims by eschewing their culture? Thought so.

To the Left, Britain has been successful
The fundamental assumption of Krauthammer and other conservative commentators is that the outcome of this hostage crisis was bad. And then they examine why and they also examine its implications.

But that's not how the worldwide Left sees it.

To the worldwide Left, just as to Jimmy Carter with American hostages held by Iran in 1979-80, the paramount--maybe the ONLY--issue here was the safe return of the hostages. Whether by doing enough groveling to get the hostages back, the aggrieved nation would damage its national honor, prestige, respect and self-respect is unimportant--because the Left doesn't care about those concepts anyway. If they truly think that all "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels," then what difference does it make if Britain came out of the crisis looking like Iran's dupe? Britain had nothing to be proud of before anyway, right?

Self-loathing makes it a lot easier to lose your honor and respect, because you never thought you had those qualities to begin with. That's true on a national scale as well as on a personal scale.

The only remaining INTERESTING question is whether this is just because the Left sincerely believes patriotism is obsolete, or because they cynically just want to hamstring the West specifically. (Have they ever said that Cubans have no right to be proud of THEIR country? Or Iranians?)

I'm shocked, shocked!
LD, you missed a couple of obvious things, methinks you tried to scribe too quickly.

1) Iran showed the world how to properly treat prisoners. The Geneva Convention can't be invoked except against the West.

2) Pelosi isn't leading us to capitulation, but to a deeper understanding. That's why she draped her head, to show how multi-cultural she is. You know, the same kind of multi-culturalism we must show whenever someone of an inferio.....er, different culture shows when some of our standards of behavior and decorum offend them.

3) The British didn't surrender. They talked with Iran and came to a mutually beneficial decision. This is how all progress is made in the real (as opposed to cowboy-george-bush) world.

Usually your comments have much more bite, slow down and savour them a little more next time.

To Krauthammer and SteveL
You both missed one salient point:

The EU has no guts.

The entire continent, as near as I can tell, is inflicted with a chronic case of missing spine. And Steve , let's face it, they're a lot of the "worldwide left" to which you refer.

___________________________

LD, brilliant as usual. You should start a blog.

BrianR
Regarding your salient point- What the EU lacks anatomically is really just South of guts, adding additional credence to Krauthammer's observation of thei preference to "soft power".

Handy: LOL
I do have to say for Nancy the Red, I'll bet she was a real hottie when she was younger.


Moonbat Exterm
LOL

Yeah, I had the same thought, but I wanted to clean it up a bit. It's too early on this column for me to really light off yet.

Great observation!

There's a reason...
...why I've taken to pronouncing EU as "Eeewwww".

EU solidarity will not last
on the econoic front either. At the first opportunity Fwance will stick a knife in the backs of their buddies if it will gain them a franc or two on the side.

A Krauthammer dud
Does Mr. Krauthammer really expect a collection of European nations known for constant in-fighting to really halt nearly $20 billion a year in commerce because of 15 detainees from England? That is sheer absurdity. That is over $1 billion annually per captured soldier (and I use that term loosely with regard to those wimps).

We had 66 people held hostage in Iran for 444 days as of 1979 and we didn't come close to doing that.

It's absurd to regard the EU as being centralized to the degree that fallout from 15 English detainees results in resounding multi-national sacrifice to the tune of billions. The United States is a nation, the EU is not. It's a loose centralized economic framework containing nations. Why should France, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Greece, Slovakia, Poland, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, et al suffer because of 15 British citizens? The EU doesn't even have a military body!

This was an issue for England, not the EU nations.

Iran snatched them, legally or not, and knew not to parade them with blindfolds (a PR disaster) but to wine and dine them and use them as bargaining chips.

I'm sure England's response will be as wimpy as the embarrassing statements made by their sailors.

But it should be England's, not the EU's.





LD
You missed nancy's other brilliant manuver. She almost had Israel at peace with thier niebors until the Isreali PM ruined it all by denying that she had the authority to speak for them. She's not just our Speaker/ President, she's also trying to take charge of Israel. Darn them for not letting her do it.
BTW you could have a far, far better job of this than I could ever hope to.

EU today... gone tomorrow
No one should be surprised about the way the EU acted, or didn't act, to be more precise. While they weren't a union then, they did the same thing before world wars one and two. There must be something in the air over there that makes them all forget their history, which is probably why they are going to outlaw the teaching of the Holocaust in schools. It should also come as no surprise that we had to pull their feet out of the fire, since that seems to be all we ever do. It would be interesting to see what the world, and more specificaly the EU, would do if we simply told them that we were going to sit the next crisis out and let them handle it.

My 2 cents
IMO one of the reasons the EU lacks guts (?) is the fact that for about 50 years there was a nuclear shield between Russia and the rest of them, courtesy of the US.

No wonder they hate us so much.

Look at a map of the world circa 1750. There was no US. In less than 250 years we have become the richest most powerful nation in history. In addition to that we saved Europe's butt 4 times in the past century - WWI, WWII, the Marshall Plan and then a nuclear shield for 50 years. Our very power is a galling, ongoing reminder to europeans of their impotence.

In the mid 50s when NATO was being formed General Charles DeGaulle of France expressed his opposition to France's membership in the organization. He stated that he wanted every American soldier out of France asap.

John Foster Dulles, American Secretary of State at the time, is reputed to have asked if that included the 100,000 American soldiers buried there.

For once DeGaulle didn't have an answer.

Where was the EU in the capture of the British sailors? Hiding in a corner.

LD
You Rock!!

Individual
Mr. Krauthammer, of course is right again. His main point being that American action is what got this unstuck. I do not read that he was asking for the EU or the UN to come together as one but was instead stating and explaining that diversity does not work; people need the same beliefs and goals in order to come to a common sensible conclusion about anything.

Krauthammer Nailed it!
I don't agree with those of you who thought Krauthammer's column was off base. I think he nailed it. The "Euro-peons", as merry-to-boy called them, are not really united -- not if being united means standing up to the jihaddist threat facing Europe. The yellow streak down the Europeon leaders' backbone shows. Countries in Europe are being overrun by Muslims determined to live in the past, whose beliefs enslave women, allow religious Mullahs to make all the decisions, and have an extreme dislike for freedom. Without steel in your backbone the logical choice is capitulation to the kind of Hitler-like posturing the Iranian leader is making.

America has been, and will continue to be, the major defense against the kind of totalitarianism that threatens the western world today. That is, if our pattisan, self-serving, my-way-or-the-highway politicians in Washington don't wake up and seek to build a consensus that will meet the threat facing our nation and the entire free world.

Namcy Polosi is out of her league when she tries to get involved in foreign policy. Methinks she is in way over her head. Maybe getting to be the first woman Speaker of the House has caused her ego to swell much too much.

Just goes to show you
That E.U. stands for Economic Union and not European Union. "Sorry about your soldiers and all, but I got to get paid."

MerryBoy
I just couldn't follow your logic (?), but that always happens when I try to read a diatribe about "neocons". Krauthammer a totalitarian? Don't know where to begin with that one.
On one of your points I did understand, however: that the hostages were returned safely is the main or only important point to you.
I disagree. You can back toward the corner for however long, and still think you're safe. But the only place that gets you in the long run is in the corner with your back against the wall.

Imigration
I believe the primary reason no overt military action was taken by Britian is because she has a large militant muslim population on a hair trigger. These savages go berserk over cartoons what do you think the reaction would be to military action. We talk of the "Fifth Column" here in the US of liberal appeasers, Brittian has a real Fifth Column it must contend with. I read that European women in many cities are gooing out "covered" so not to offend their muslim neighbors. I am not sure if this is widespread but the fact it happens at all is frightening. To think that the current population of Brits are the decendents of those brave souls who stood alone aginst Hitler in 1940 is an eye opener. Americans need to look and learn. We could be facing a similar situation here if we don't control our own borders. I am John Doe!

Neocons

.....Merry boy ...

.....If you are correct then both Bill and Hillary are neo-cons because they have both been quoted as saying that individual rights have to be subordinate to the Collective ..."It take a Village"? .... are they CFR members? .....COLOSSUS

E.U.
U.N. E.U.= P.U.

LD
You forgot to mention that President Bush is a lame duck. No wonder Nancy felt no need to abide by his wishes. I imagine she did consult with Future-President H. Clinton before embarking on her peace mission.

These animals don't want peace
A statement of self-incrimination?

merry_go_boy
You are right on. Although I didn't HEAR Tony say "Please" to the Iranians, I'm sure he said it. And obviously "Thank you" would be the proper response to the generous release of those, what, prisoners of war?

What's amazing is that former president J. Carter never thought to use that magic word after Iran kidnapped everyone in our embassy. That hostage situation could have ended, like this one, in a few days. That's probably why Jimmy has turned into such an advocate of appeasement and surrender: he learned his lesson. (Those who guess it's a result of early onset dementia are just mean-spirited.)

Dude3344
That little mistake about Israel's desire to surrender was just a combination of a slight mis-analysis of their conversation plus a little projection on Nancy's part.

Don't forget, important people have much on their minds.

And, gee, it would have been nice to be seen as the one person who finally brought peace to the Middle East.

Where's Bill?

.....Critical Bill where are you? ...you have been strangely silent ...

.....Where is the spirit of Admiral Nelson who stood against Napoleon's fleet at the "Battle of Trafalgar"? ...

.....What happened to the spirit of Churchill during "The Battle of Britain" when he could only promise ...toil, blood, sweat and tears ...

.....What about "The Charge of the Light Brigade"? ...Gunga Din? ...Rorke's Drift where ten Victoria Crosses were awarded among the 140 defenders? ...

.....What has become of British Tradition? ...

.....will all that history be censored from the history books along with the Holocaust and the Crusades? ....

.....I am afraid that the British stiff upper lip is beginning to quiver old chap .....COLOSSUS

Ed
The EU is a legal, politcal, and economic entity. They have legal documents voted by the individual citizens and endorsed by thier Parliments. There is also the thing called NATO. An attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. What Iran did was illegal. They were in Iraqi waters, not Iranian. The British crusier was operating at the time under the American flag. So no, this wasn't an English matter.

How come liberals love our enemies so much? What's this infatuation with dictators? This decade reminds so much of the decade leading up to WWII. Out of fear and self loathing, the Europeans fell all over themselves to pacify and make nice with Hitler.

Edward
Do any of you even know what the EU is? It is an economic framework of member states, not NATO.

The notion that Portugal, Spain, Denmark, Romania, Bulgaria, Austria, Finland, Estonia, Slovakia, Latvia, Hungary, Malta, Poland, et al should jump to Tony Blair's wishes that they sacrifice nearly $20 billion annually in commerce because 15 British idiots (who made embarrassing statements of solidarity with Iran) got snatched is sheer absurdity. That's over $1 billion per sailor!

This is Britain's issue to deal with, not the EUs. The EU is NOT a nation. It is a loose collection of nations that functions more like a central bank.

If Blair had any balls he would've threatened an airstrike as per Ronald Regan, not run to other countries and ask them to sacrifice billions.

Wrong Adverb
" Ironically, the existence of transnational institutions like the U.N. makes it harder for collective action against bad actors."

It's not "ironic", Charles. It's tragic. The U.N., in balance, has done more harm than good during its lifetime because it has refused to act where it could actually do something and thwarted those who would act when it could not or would not.

Witness Kosovo. Witness Rwanda. Witness Darfur. Witness Iraq.

The U.N. was DOA, but nobody wants to admit it.

Merry_go_boy
As usual you make little sense.

BTW, your quote:

"as Sun TZU once said: "Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer." "

can be attributed from Hollywood and Mario Puzo.

Also, you seem to be of the mind that it is ok to kidnap foreign soldiers and then make demands in order to release them. How would you react if Bush authorized the kidnapping of the Director of Iranian Intelligence, and demanded that Iran shutdown its nuclear facilities before that man could be released?


Sides?
>can you honestly sit there and tell me you're siding with Islamic fascists?<

I'm not taking sides, I'm merely pointing out that you, like the Islamofascists, do not want peace. Just stating the obvious.

Merry-go-boy
You claim that Charles K. is a "communitarian"!

I've read many posts that advocate incorrect thought but to claim Charles K. is a "communitarian" is beyond the pale.

A communitarian label could (and should) be placed on people like Hillary Clinton. Since Hillary advocates the collective above the individual, the label fits. Remember her book "It takes a Village"?

"The greater the readiness to subordinate purely personal interests, the higher rises the ability to establish comprehensive communities.... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise of every truly human culture."

I'm fairly sure that's what Hillary's message has been throughout her "communitarian" (if you will) career.

What you probably don't know is that the above quote comes from Adolf Hilter, Mein Kampf, Chapter 11, Ralph Manheim translation.

For Merry G.B. to state that Charles K. is a communitarian is like stating the Statue of Liberty is a religious icon; neither statement is anywhere close to the truth.

Once Upon A Time
"Europeans talk all the time about their preference for "soft power" over the brute military force those Neanderthal Americans resort to all the time."

We used to call that 'taking a pillow to a gunfight'.

Through the eyes of an old sailor.
It was just about 60 years ago, during the siege of Shanghi, the British lost a heavy cruiser to Communist China because of an order from stupid Diplomats.
"WITHDRAW, DO NOT ENGAGE"
They ran out of fuel withdrawing back & forth, up & down the river and refusing to break out of the trap.
Officers and sailors from wealthy families were ransomed.
Some of the other sailors were brought up on the levee and used to show us what the Communists were going to do to us when we were captured.
Sometimes I can still hear their screams in my sleep.
We broke out.
That cruiser could have broke out.
Or that cruiser could have just sat there and mocked the Chinese gunners. All they had was a few WW1 French 75mm. They couldn't do anything to that cruiser but mess up the paint on it's armor.
"Withdraw, do not engage?"
Those 15 sailors had the same orders.
"Britain rules the waves?"

EU nations have plenty of muscle
France and the UK are both nuclear. Germany, France, and England have wicked jet fighters and top-notch special forces, and submarines that could sink every single vessel Iran has within a week. France has 261 Mirage 2000s that could strike terror into Iran, and the German Luftwaffe could easily take down every crappy Russian-built MiG tomorrow (superior western avionics - this has always been the case).

France has nearly 400 nukes! That's more than four times the number in China!!!

Before everyone starts jumping on the "they're paper tigers" bandwagon, you might want to do your research. France, Germany, or England, either nation working on its own, could turn Iran into a greasespot tomorrow.



EU nations' resolve
GWB,

Bosnia was a NATO affair (and only in the war's final stages at that), not an EU affair.

Dude,

France immediately cut off sources of terrorist financing in the days after 9/11 and sent thousands of troops to the region. I think it was 5000. Additionally, they committed more than a quarter of their Navy and flew 10% of the sorties for air defense and recon. They were the only non-US aircraft to conduct strikes in Afghanistan and they hit over 30 targets in one operation (Anaconda - an important one).

Don't confuse France, Germany, or the UK with Spain.

The notion that about 20 nations should cut off $18 billion in commerce with an oil rich nation they're dependent on because 15 Brits get snatched is absurd. If the Falkland crisis was happening today do you think nations like Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, et al should pay for it?

Absurd.

Let England handle their own soldiers. The EU was formed for currency consolidation and trade framework.

Is time to get new friends
Europe will continue to act like college going teenagers as long as they know that if things get really bad they can always count on Uncle Sam to come bail them out of whatever mess they have gotten into.

The Motto of the EU ought to be:

"WE TRUST AMERICAN BLOOD"

Colonialism, Communism, Fascism and now, Multiculturalism.

Bring our troops home now!

Out from Europe; that is.

Israel relies on no one
GWB,

Israel "relies on the US for the big missions"??

Where was the US in their founding war? Where were the American troops in the 6 Day War? Were was the American air support in the strike on the the Iraqi nuke plant? In fact, where were the Marines in their last "big mission" into Lebanon against Hezbollah? As I recall, the US in almost every instance bitched and moaned for them to pull back!

Remember Lebanon in the 80s? Israel knocked the hell out of the PLO forces there. What did we do? Get our embassy and over 300 Marines blown to hell and then retreated under Reagan of all people.

You need to take another look at history my friend.

Dude
Again, the EU is more of a trans national bank and trade block. It does have a body that can vote on security measures but these are more internal safety and border security issues, and even that is done via NATO.

Do you really expect 27 member states to gear up for war with Iran or lose billions in trade because 15 Brit weasels (their statements were pathetic and without backbone) got snatched?

Did we halt trade with China when we had the crew of a downed spy plane held there during Bush's first year in office?

We lost hundreds of merchant marines to U-Boats prior to WWII, did we declare war on Germany? Nope.

We lost HUNDREDS of Marines and an entire embassy to Lebanese terrorists in the 80s, did we bomb them into submission? Hardly.

If anyone should rattle sabers, it's England. They are their, ahem, soldiers. Not Bulgari's, not Romania's, and not Latvia's.

Please.

Dude,
Reagan turned tale and ran just as Clinton did in Somalia a decade later.

An air strike is sufficient retaliation to you for the deadliest day for the Marines since the Battle for Iwo Jima?

You slay me Dude.

Merry_go_boy
It seems that you are not seeing the forest for the trees here.

I believe that CK's point is that the Europeans are in a collective mess yet refuse to work together to get out of it.

Let me try a simpler analogy: the local liquor store is getting robbed in broad daylight by some crackhead. You happen to own your own liquor store, so you watch with interest.

The store owner's got a gun--right on his hip--but doesn't want to use it. Doesn't want to take the chance of making things worse, you see.

He figures that he can talk the crackhead down and he'll just go away, never to bother anyone again. So, he gives the crackhead whatever he wants, apologizing for slowing down the robbery and complimenting the crackhead's fresh breath.

You're watching this whole thing go on, but you don't want to get involved. Hey, it's not your problem; the crackhead's not robbing you. And if you get involved, it'll cost you money because you'd be taking time away from your business selling booze to crackheads.

I believe that CK isn't pushing Communtarianism or whatever you call it as much as he's suggesting that this Iranian problem is EVERYONE'S problem. And something better could have been done, had anyone--ANYONE--had some stones.

26 nations not responsible for England
Absurd comparison Paulie. Would you expect Canada to forfeit billions in commerce or send their soldiers to die if 15 Americans were held in Iran for a few days?

BS.

Dude
Dude, we're not talking about Iran getting a nuke now, are we? We're talking about 15 soldiers wined and dined in Iran for a couple of days and the belief that some have that 26 nations should be responsible for the national security affairs of Downing Street (Parliament).


Quadaffi's Beruit
Nice trick. He ran Beirut from his base in Tripoli, Libya?

Focus G W Bush
GWB,

I blew away your notion that Israel "relies on the US" for "the big missions" and more or less showed that not only is this incorrect, but that the US does in fact get in their way, as we did when Rice was dispatched to Lebanon years ago to say "everybody play fair" after Hezbollah had fired rockets into Israel.

You're meandering.

Focus Dude
Who suggested that Iran has the EU by the financial balls?

Outside of you that is?

No, we're talking about Blair's demanding the 26 other EU nations write of 18 billion for 15 Brit wimps wined and dined in Iran for a few days. This is what Krauthammer also wants them to do.

It's absurd. Krauthammer is very capable intelligent columns but when he misses, he always misses big. This is one of those times.

Meanwhile, yourself and others are jumping on the notion that the EU is some kind of UN Security Council.

Bizarre.

Lebanon
Dude,

You may want to back off debating me on Lebanon. I don't normally issue caveats to posters who want to debate, but I will in this instance. I've read a lot about it, not the least of which is the autobiography "Warrior Soul" by Chuck Pfarrer - best insider's view yet of the entire experience.

Lebanon was a "peacekeeping" mission and nation-building operation. After the 241 soldiers were blown away, I would've leveled every enemy there, yes.

Iran: not my problem
It seems to me that Charles K.'s point is that the EU doesn't really perceive Iran as a threat.

No one in the EU claims that Iran is a present danger to the world or even to merely the Middle East.

Hitler and Tojo weren't either, in 1932.

Ten years later, the US declared war on both. The Bush administration understood this history in 2001. The Democrats don't.

Pericardis alive or Raisuli dead
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Theodore Roosevelt had it right. I now wear a T-shirt and have a wall calendar saying just that. "Good policies are forever -- Pericardis alive or Raisuli dead."

Iran and the EU
DavidMac,

Was it lost on you when Chirac said that France would nuke Iran off the map if they were aggressive with nuclear weapons?

Since you missed it:

Chirac: Nuclear Response to Terrorism Is Possible

"PARIS, Jan. 19 -- President Jacques Chirac said Thursday that France was prepared to launch a nuclear strike against any country that sponsors a terrorist attack against French interests. He said his country's nuclear arsenal had been reconfigured to include the ability to make a tactical strike in retaliation for terrorism.

On the same day Chirac delivered his speech, French diplomats were at the forefront of European efforts to persuade members of the IAEA board to consider action aimed at pressuring Iran to freeze its nuclear program."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/19/AR2006011903311.html

Why do I have to bring everyone up to speed on this?

George W Bush,

How are we "blackmailed" by Egypt and how is purchasing oil from OPEC nations sponsoring terrorism? That's absurd.

One could make an even better analogy by saying purchasing gas from Conoco, which is owned by Chavez and is the number two supplier of oil to the US (forget the Middle East) is akin to sponsoring communism. Is purchasing products from China sponsoring communism? Is business w/ Russia sponsoring terrorism since it is their weaponry which arms Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and the insurgents in Iraq?

Hmmmmm?

Ed--sorry I'm late
Absurd comparison? Really?

First off, I realize that you are far too sophisticated and worldly to understand a simple analogy, so please accept my apologies.

However, I was addressing merry_go_boy and not you.

Nevertheless, the point remains: if the EU doesn't stand together, eventually they will fall apart.

Or something to that effect, anyway. I'm sure that you could explain it better because you're wicked smart.

Of course, you are correct in your assertion about the economics. It's never been a problem coming up with a rationalization when cowards need to cower.

And that, Ed, would seem to be the motivating dynamic here as far as I'm concerned: rationalized cowardice.




Ed
Bite your tongue. Conoco IS NOT owned by Chavez. It is all American.

Lordy
Now George W Bush,

Before you get off on a tangent, let me remind you that it was you who said that we were blackmailed by the Egyptians:

"We are also blackmailed by the Egyptians. That is part of the problem with our interventionist foreign policy."

Address that before you go all over the place.

Paulie,

What in the hell do statements like "if the EU doesn't stand together, eventually they will fall apart" even mean?

The EU's structure is that of a transnational trading bloc. Do you even know what the EU is???? It has no standing army, no security jurisdiction other than working with NATO to secure borders.

The EU has nothing to do with hostages in Iran.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO GENIUS? CALL IN AN EU AIRSTRIKE WHEN THEY'RE NOT VOTING ON INTERNET LEGISLATION?

BWHWEWHEHWAHAHAHAWHAHAHAH!!!!




Iran and Operation Ajax
America, Iran, and Operation Ajax: The Burden of the Past

by Steven LaTulippe

The news has been abuzz recently with stories about President Bush’s alleged plans for "regime change" in Iran. Just last week, rumors were reported of US Air Force fighters violating Iranian air space for the purposes of testing their air defense system. As the nuclear crisis continues to simmer, the next incursions may be of a more belligerent nature.

Obviously, America’s relationship with Iran has been extremely hostile over the past several decades. From the perspective of most Americans, the seminal event of US-Iranian relations was the siege of the US embassy in Tehran and the subsequent holding of its staff as hostages back in the 1970s.

Although that hostage-taking was brutal and unjustified, many Americans lack a more global perspective of the history of American interactions with Persia. One of the most critical events in that relationship occurred over 50 years ago during the Eisenhower Administration. While Americans may know little about Operation Ajax, its memory still evokes intense anger from nearly every Iranian.

The brief version (for a more thorough history of the events surrounding Operation Ajax, I refer the reader to Sandra Mackey’s excellent book The Iranians) concerns the overthrow of Muhammad Mossadeq’s short-lived, democratic government by the CIA in 1953 and the reinstallation of the Shah to the throne of Iran.

In 1951, the control of Iran’s oil fields by a British company (the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, or AIOC) became a hot political topic. The Iranian people believed, with some justification, that the existing deal between the Iranian government and AIOC unfairly benefited the company. Muhammad Mossadeq, then a member of the Iranian parliament, took the lead in demanding a renegotiation of the pact. The masses of the Iranian people rallied to his standard and quickly made him the most revered leader in the land. The Shah, who then ruled as an authoritarian monarch, lost control of events as his previously powerless parliament (the Majlis) took on a life of its own.

As Mackay notes:

With Mossadeq leading the charge against Iran’s economic master, the Majlis, on March 15, boldly nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company…On April 29, the same Majlis elected Muhammad Mossadeq prime minister. While the shah sat on the throne as a mere shadow, Muhammad Mossadeq basked in the acclaim of the vast majority of Iranians, who for the first time in decades gave their genuine respect, devotion, and loyalty to their recognized leader.

While I certainly don’t condone his socialistic tendencies or his seizure of the oilfields, it is undeniable that by the time of his elevation to prime minister, Mossadeq had the backing of the overwhelming majority of the Iranian population. For the first time in its long history, Iran had a democratically elected leader.

By 1953, Mossadeq was in an increasingly difficult situation. Oil revenues had plummeted due to a boycott of Iranian oil and the economy slumped. The Soviet-backed Iranian communist party was becoming increasingly aggressive, and Washington began to worry. Iran was a vital chess piece in the Cold War and the American oil companies had their eyes on future concessions there. Mossadeq had become an "issue" for some very powerful people.

Eventually, the decision was made in Washington that Mossadeq had to go. Brigadier General Norman Schwarzkopf (father of the Gulf War commander) and CIA guru Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of Teddy) were ordered to begin a covert operation designed to remove Mossadeq and restore the Shah to absolute authority. A complex plot, codenamed Operation Ajax, was conceived and executed from the US Embassy in Tehran.

Using CIA assets in the Iranian military and various minor political parties, an uprising was staged.

Mackey describes the climax:

For nine hours, the pro-shah army, utilizing American-style military strategy and logistics, battled pro-Mossadeq demonstrators. At least 300 people died. By nightfall, the Mossadeq partisans had drawn into a tight cordon around the premier’s palace. Inside, the aged and always ailing prime minister threw a coat over his pajamas, leaped over the garden wall, and went into hiding. Forty-eight hours later he was arrested. The brief euphoric moment when the followers of Mossadeq believed that he held Iran’s destiny in his hands evaporated.

The Shah, who had fled to Rome at the first whiff of gunpowder, rode back to power on the tip of American bayonets.

In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch (a move which makes a mockery of our currently stated desire to "spread democracy" in the Middle East).

This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America. Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule. Second, the American embassy in Tehran was permanently marked as a "nest of spies" in the eyes of the Iranian populace. And third, Iranian democracy was strangled in its crib.

The next time the populace rose to overthrow the Shah (in the 1970s), they viewed America as their enemy and were cheering a leader who was significantly less democratic than Mossadeq. When rumors began circulating that the Americans were going to bring the Shah back via yet another covert operation, the Iranian mobs responded by seizing the US embassy in Tehran and holding its workers hostage.

If Mossadeq’s regime had been permitted to continue, it is entirely possible that Iran could have evolved into an authentic democracy. American interventionism destroyed that opportunity and set the stage for many of the tragedies currently haunting the Middle East.

If America is ever to have even remotely cordial relations with Iran, we must accept responsibility for the terrible effects of Operation Ajax and admit that we had no right to intervene in a controversy that was wholly the business of the Iranian people. That exploit was unworthy of the Land of Washington and Jefferson.

While the American public often quickly forgets the interventions and mischievous actions of its government, our overseas victims seldom do. The current climate of international terrorism should prompt the American people to take a more active interest, since these transgressions often come back to haunt us in the most unexpected ways.


oops, sorry
This was a story from 1/05, but is still quite relevant.

France's power
Dude,

France has more than ten times more nuclear weapons than China. They have state-of-the-art jets, the Mirage 2000, which many pilots say would blow away an F-15 and F16. They can certainly turn tighter than anything we have save the F-22.

They also have the most fearsome anti-ship missile in existence. During the Falklands war, one of these blew away a British ship, one of the rare.

They also recently conducted nuclear tests in the Pacific that garnered them international condemnation.

Did they lie and conduct business w/ Saddam? Sure! The country has no domestic oil reserves (same as Germany, another Oil For Food thief). They did a lot of business with Saddam.

HOWEVER, I can guarantee you, socialists or not, if they thought Iran was a threat they make Iran's days miserable.

While there is not direct animosity between France and Britain, or Britain and German, you have to understand these countries -- they are not like Kansas and Texas. Ditto for, say, Bulgaria and Romania (both EU states) and England.

But the larger point in all of this is that the EU as a nation is about strengthening Europe economically! Do you really...really...really expect the EU to kiss away upwards of 20 billion in trade over this matter?

As for those thinking of the EU as some kind of security body, don't make me laugh.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Ed
You seem upset. Is it always this way when you deign to lecture to the great unwashed?

Let's try this calmly: yes, I do understand what the EU is, professor. Thank you for your calm and thoughtful, yet condescending pontifications.

Does it possibly occur to the all-knowing Ed that in order to preserve the integrity of a transnational trading block it may become necessary to stand up for members of said block--however that can be accomplished?

Boy, I'd hate to be stuck in a foxhole with you.

BTW: notice the judicious use of capital letters?

Dude3344
Those likud sites are a little extreme, but I do check them from time to time. I get my news daily from many sources across the spectrum. I just think there are better sites to get a more credible view of Neoconservative thought. Townhall is a great place for that. I have books from Perle, Ledeen, Kagan, and others so I am not deficient in my study of this group. As you have also seen I do check the background of my sources as best I can.

Del

Amen. I couldn't agree with you more. Krauthammer nailed it as he so often does.

Oh, in the Dude finals:

Dude 3, Utah 1 (If it hadn't been for that reference to Quadaffi's Beruit Dude would have shut Utah out)
Dude 4, Ed 4 (Ed would have scored more except for his disparaging remark about Krauthammer having missed this one big...no way. The EU is supposed to create a single European community. It is an economic alliance that should have acted as one when the British needed assistance. On the other hand, I believe the British shamed themselves by not sinking that Iranian ship when it threatened their sailors and marines.)

Dude3344
"Also, I'm not into nation-building either, but if radical islam or wahabbism does take over the middle east, how long before they start to use their influence with oil to force the west to adopt sharia law?"

If they tried that they would be dead. First off the Iranian alliance with Chavez would falter because there is no way South America, heavily Christian, would put up with that nonsense. Second, if they started taking over a state we would immediately destroy that state and its leadership, that was my point with the imperial caliphate, it would be in grave danger from the first state it flips. Third, there is still no way to make oil edible so they still have to sell it to survive. Of course that is why I said we should have divided and conquered if we were planning on reshaping the entire middle east. An Iranian, Venezualan, and US alliance would have offset Saudi influence. It is better than the current strategy, which will bankrupt us before any victory can be achieved at this rate.

Also the effects of an attempted imperial caliphate would face the wrath of the world, countries less involved in the war on terror would drastically change. Don't forget Iran may talk tough but they have China and Russia keeping watch over their investments and they will not let Iran get out of hand on its own right. Of course if we invade Iran I still think China will take Taiwan just to show us what heavy investment in US debt and what our imperial overstretch does to our world influence. With troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran there is no way we can sustain a escalation of hostility with China, financially or militarily, and taking Taiwan will symbolize a changing of the guard.

Dude 3, Utah 1
So what you're saying Ron, is that you think calling someone a worthless coward on a website is a victory?

Based on what?

Certainly no pertinent conservative philosophy that I'm familiar with.

Now, for the record, Dude stated that "the animals(Iranians) don't want peace."
The indication to me seems clear. Dude feels Iranians are animals are should either be disposed of or domesticated. They should not be treated as human beings.

Again, if you think sophmoric BS is relevant, that's your perogative. I will say that Dudue's posts today, except his resopnses to me, have been well-thought and respectful.

Now, back to your regularly programmed TH hating orgy.


Fresh from the mailbox...
New news about the US Congress and Iran, too long to post so I posted it on my blog.

http://spinfilter.blogspot.com/

Oh for God's Sake
The "Well now it's a mess in Iraq"

Compared to what you idiot: Vietnam? North Korea? The war in the Pacific for years?

Jezus.

Ed
When we leave Iraq, regardless of sooner or later, do you think that the Sunni and the Shiites are going to live in peace? These factions want all out war, there is deep hatred between the Sunni and the Shiite. Just how do you expect to change the hearts and minds when even more people don't want us there? We cant shoot a solution unless you take a side and engage in ethnic cleansing. And then you are going to enrage either the Saudis or the Iranians and that is not a good choice to have. If you take the Shiites side, the Saudi could use oil as leverage, if you take the Saudis side, Iran and Iraq Shiites unite, along with other Shiite Extremist groups and they now become global terrorists again, versus the territorial terrorists that they have been, especially after 9/11. Oil then goes sky high and the Taiwan situation could play out, not to mention new violence toward Israel and increased terrorism in the United States. Oh did I mention we still have a war in Afghanistan. So all these people that want to take out Iran better consider these scenarios related to Iraq. Yes it is a mess.

So what's your plan, Ed?

Ed
You wrote:

"We lost hundreds of merchant marines to U-Boats prior to WWII, did we declare war on Germany? Nope."

Um, those merchant marines were killed by the U-Boats DURING WWII, just prior to our entry into it. Realisitically, Germany was fully within its rights to declare war on us, since we were supplying war materiel to a combatant nation - that meant we were no longer neutral.

The 1940-41 portion of the Battle of the Atlantic was a real historical oddity, with both the US and the Germans sort of fighting, but neither really making a big deal about it. FDR didn't have a reason to fight the Germans at that point, and they wanted to keep us out of the war as long as possible.

Japan eventually forced the issue.

Jimmy the Saint
We found a way around that funding quandary, now we give aid to both sides of conflicts, plenty of gray area to position oneself.

Ed
You wrote:

"They also have the most fearsome anti-ship missile in existence. During the Falklands war, one of these blew away a British ship, one of the rare."

In point of fact, the Exocet doesn't work particularly well. The ones the Argies used against the Brits (2 hits, 2 sinkings) didn't detonate, rather unspent fuel caused fires. A somewhat academic point since both ships sank, but the warheads didn't work. It is also somewhat important to note that one of the two ships that burned was a civilian vessel taken into military service and did not have military damage control.

The Exocet also failed to sink the USS Stark when the Iraqis used one. This time, it did detonate and did inflict serious damage to the ship, but it only hit a frigate, not a major surface ship.

It's also pretty debatable whether or not an Exocet could penetrate modern anti-missile defenses. Its "successful" uses were all against essentially unprotected targets.

Euro Military Power
It is fairly debatable whether any EU nation can project much power directly to the Gulf in a rapid fashion. Britain only has the capacity to airlift about a single regiment of infantry, France and Germany lack even that capacity. No EU nation has a strategic bomber, although in-air refueling would allow tactical bombers to potentially strike Iran.

If they have to do something quickly in the Gulf, the EU nations are essentially powerless - beyond French and UK nuclear capabilities, that is.

Further, the EU has explored the idea of creating an EU military force, however, they haven't been able to make a go of it.


The EU and the USA
I guess poor Chuck hasn't become aware that following our invasion of Iraq most of the world, including the EU, lost the fervor they had to work with us following 9-11.

They recognized that we made a tragic blunder. Unfortunately, there still are Americans (hard to believe) that continue to defend this foolish action in March 2003. Whether the President's lies were intentional or not, our invasion was based on lies - likely fed to him by Chalibi, the neocons, and the military-industrial complex.

I'm sure that bin Laden also is happy that we attacked Iraq. It has been a big boost to him and Al Qaeda. We are losing many dead and many more maimed. Thousands of innocent Iraqis are being killed. Our debt increases at an alarming rate. The Taliban regains ground as we now face a two-front war. Americans are deeply divided over Iraq (we had been united over Afghanistan). We have lost what had previously been almost universal support in the international community. Most of the "coalition of the willing" in Iraq (small to begin with) is moving out. Israel, Iran and North Korea are the only nations in all the world more despised than we are. The civil war in Iraq could erupt into a broader conflict, even toppling friendly governments in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, etc. Oil and Israel (two major reasons for the invasion) are more threatened. Graft and corruption are everywhere as greedy profiteers make billions off the deaths of brave young Americans. And we could go on.

After all that, still hope you have a blessed Easter!

MyOpine
You have a link to the Shanghai incident? Never recall hearing of it. Thanks.

Jimmy boy writes:
"In point of fact, the Exocet doesn't work particularly well"

Tell that to the guys who died aboard these ships bright boy:

"In 1982, during the Falklands War, Exocets became famous worldwide when Argentinian Navy Super Etendard warplanes used them to destroy Royal Navy's HMS Sheffield on 4 May and sink the support ship Atlantic Conveyor on 25 May. As well, an Argentine-converted land-based truck fired an MM38 Exocet (previously dismounted from the Argentine corvette ARA Guerrico) that damaged the HMS Glamorgan on June 12.

On May 17, 1987, the pilot of an Iraqi Mirage F-1 allegedly mistook the U.S. Navy Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate USS Stark for an Iranian tanker and fired two Exocets at the warship. Both hit, but only one exploded. The first penetrated the port-side hull; it failed to detonate, but spewed flaming rocket fuel in its path. The second entered at almost the same point, and left a 3-by-4-meter gash—then exploded in crew quarters. Thirty-seven sailors were killed and twenty-one were injured. Stark was heavily damaged but saved by the crew and sent back for repairs."

European Union has no dog in this fight
The simple answer is the Charter of the European Union that is little more than a template which has not been signed. Review the charter and there is no language of any kind which stands for defense, military support, or attempts to establish a common military.

That is within the jurisdiction of the United Nations and/or NATO.

CK's outrage is simply misplaced.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/europeanunion2.html

has no dog in this fight
Upon further research, I'm quick to admit that this is wrong, they do have a military force, it just isn't mentioned in their Charter.

My apologies.

answer to the question
where was the EU - on the sideline hoping noone would notice the wind whistling through their collective legs.

Ed
posted, "Was it lost on you when Chirac said that France would nuke Iran off the map if they were aggressive with nuclear weapons? . . . Why do I have to bring everyone up to speed on this?"


Actually, you don't. Most people on this board read and write fairly well (and cipher, too).

I remember the WaPo story and dismissed it as Chirac's political rhetoric. A while back, when Muslims were burning cars throughout France for weeks, Chirac was hiding under his desk.

The WaPo article indicated that "He [Chirac] said his country's nuclear arsenal had been reconfigured to include the ability to make a tactical strike."

Never mind that the US developed tactical nukes (to be used by missile and field artillery) in the 1950's and had them deployed in South Korea. Chirac was blowing smoke, Ed.

And when did ANYONE start to believe France would stand up to ANY country without the Brits and Americans standing up first and in front of France?






Credit to the French
DavidMac writes: "And when did ANYONE start to believe France would stand up to ANY country without the Brits and Americans standing up first and in front of France?"

Well, for starters DavidMac, does the name Napoleon Bonaparte mean anything to you? Have you ever heard of the French Foreign Legion? Do you know that it is very active and has the respect of special operations forces worldwide?

Here's some history for you:

Franco-Syrian War (May, 1945)--At the conclusion of the Second World War, French troops put down a rebellion in the French-controlled Arab nation of Syria.

The First Indochina War (1945-1954)--A French colony since the late 1880s, Indochina was made up of the countries of Vietnam, Cambodia,and Laos. Communist insurgents led by Ho Chi Minh defeated French forces, causing the independence of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. As a result of the peace agreement, Vietnam became divided into Communist North Vietnam and the pro-Western South Vietnam. This conflict was a precursor to the American-Vietnam War.

The Cold War (1945-1991)--France participated in the Cold War as a member of the Western alliance, NATO, and also through its own policies in Africa and elsewhere promoting a pro-French and pro-Western attitudes and alliances.

The Madagascar Revolt (1947-1948)--The French military put down a rebellion in the colony of Madagascar.

The Korean War (1950-1953)--France contributed military forces to the UN Army fighting the Communist North Koreans and Chinese.

France Tunisia Independence War 1952-1954 --Guerrilla war of independence against the French began in Tunisia, led by Habib Bourguiba.

Moroccan War of Independence (1953-1956)

Franco-Tunisian Border Conflict (1957)

The Algerian War of Independence

Suez War (1956)--France, Britain, and Israel invaded Egypt.

Basque Separatist Campaign (1958-Present)--The Basque region is divided between Spain and France. The Basque liberation front, ETA, has carried out a campaign of urban terrorism in an attempt to gain independence/autonomy. As most Basque territory is in Spain, the bulk of the campaign has been directed at the Spanish, though French targets have been hit. France and Spain largely cooperate in suppressing ETA.

Second Franco-Tunisian War [The Bizerte Incident] (1961)

Gabon Intervention (1964)

First Katangan War (1977)

Shaba I--

Second Katangan War (1978)

Weiss | War and Peace in the DRC (VI)

Shaba II

Zaire--Detailed article on the Shaba/Katanga Invasion of 1978.

Shaba II: The French and Belgian Intervention in Zaire in 1978

Central African Republic Intervention (September, 1979)--France organized and aided a coup to overthrow Emperor Jean-Bodel Bokassa. French troops were flown in from Europe and installed former President David Dacko.

Intervention in Lebanese Civil War (1982-1984)--France, along with the United States, United Kingdom, and Italy, sent troops to act as peacekeepers in the Lebanese Civil War and the Invasion of Lebanon by Israel.

New Caledonian Uprising (1984-1985)

Gabon Intervention (May, 1990)

Second Persian Gulf War (1991)--France contributed military forces to the UN force to liberate Kuwait from the invading Iraqi army of Saddam Hussein.

Intervention in Somalia (1991-1992)--France contributed military forces to the UN peacekeeping force in Somalia.

Central African Republic Intervention (April, 1996)--French troops put down a C.A.R. army mutiny.

Central African Republic Intervention (May, 1996)--French troops put down another C.A.R. army mutiny.

Central African Republic Intervention (Nov. 1996-Jan. 1997)--French troops put down yet another C.A.R. army mutiny.

Kosovo War (1999)-France contributed military forces to the NATO effort to protect the Kosovo Albanians from the persecution by the Serbian military and militias.

Afghanistan War (2001-Present)-France contributed military forces to the Allied/NATO effort to overthrow the Taliban following the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. France continues to supply troops and aircraft to operations supporting the new Afghan government against Taliban and al-Qaida insurgents.

Ivory Coast (Cote de Ivorie) Intervention (2003-Present)-France intervened to bring a halt to the civil war in its former colony. During one clash, the French military avenged the death of several troops by destroying the small Ivory Coast air force as it sat on the ground.

Central African Republic Intervention (2006)--French troops and aircraft aid the government against rebels.

YOU NEED TO RE-EVALUATE YOUR VIEW OF THEM BUDDY. IT'S LIKE YOU THINK THEY'RE ENTIRE HISTORY WAS THEM GETTING STEAMROLLED BY THE NAZIS. LET ME REMIND YOU THAT BRITAIN WAS STEAMROLLED BY THEM TOO, JUST AS THIS NATION WAS NEARLY STEAMROLLED BY ENGLAND (WASHINGTON DC NEARLY BURNT TO THE GROUND, INCLUDING WHITE HOUSE) IN THE WAR OF 1812.

Jimmy the Saint
"Um, those merchant marines were killed by the U-Boats DURING WWII, just prior to our entry into it"

Thus illustrating my point perfectly. 15 British wimps are captured and you expect the 26 nations of the EU (a transnational economic body no less!) declare war on Iran but we lost hundreds to the Hun and FDR sits back and does nothing.

Just as we lost hundreds to Lebanese forces (deadliest day for the Marines since Iwo Jima) in the 80s and Reagan not only does nothing, he retreats altogether.

Meanwhile, you guys are moaning that the EU (well, the focus here seems to be on France too) should put their boxing gloves on for a British security situation.

Ho brother.

Dude 3344
It's sad how so many who were enthusiastic about going into Iraq try so hard, even now, to justify our national blunder.

The last person I want to defend is Saddam. He was evil. I don't know a single opponent of the war who defends him. But his tyranny kept the Iraqis in line and wouldn't allow the Sunni-Shai split to emerge into open warfare. He was supported by the USA against Iran in their bloody war - when he was gassing Kurds, etc. He had nothing to do with 9-11 and was despised by bin Laden, who thought he was a traitor to Islam.

As far as violating the fly-over etc: it has interested me that the claim is that his artillery fired on US plane hundreds, even thousands of times. That either says (a) they were pretty lousy shots or (b) they didn't want to hit anything.

As for the Africa business, the evidence seems sparce if any at all. War supporters work so hard looking for bits and pieces to justify our colossal error.

The bottom line is that we were stupid to go into Iraq, as time has proven. Some of us true and wise patriots did our best to warn the government of all this but the administration, neocons, and greedy military-industrial complex (including lots of Democrats) wanted to go to war, so.... We were misled by the Chalibis and the Wolfowitzes and Feiths and Cheneys and Perles that we would be greeted with flowers, that oil money would pay for everything, that gas here in the US could sell for as low as 10 cents a gallon. Yes, that's what chickenhawks were promising.

Let's hope we can get out without thousands more dead (like happened in Vietnam).

One other thought re Saddam. He was bad. Okay, we know that. But he ran a secular government and was intolerant of Islamic nuts. Unlike in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc, women did not have to wear the scarf or whatever. Actually, I've read that there was a higher % of women engineers in Iraq than in any nation in the world prior to our invasion.

As bad off as Iraq was under Saddam, I'm afraid it's worse off today. How does the old proverb go: "Let sleeping dogs lie." That may apply.

What never ceases to amaze me is how many people are callous in the face of the suffering that is being caused by this war - on US military and their family and on innocent Iraqis.
Think of all the pain and grief! Don't you give a damn? What is in humanity that leads it into war after war after war? When will we learn? I'm talking about all people, including Islamic crazies, of course, but also too many Americans.

I'm thinking: maybe our best choices for president are Hagel, maybe Ron Paul. Kucinick even (though I'm not a Democrat). We need someone who understands diplomacy and negotiation.

A blessed Easter! Christ would have a lot to say about all this.

Back to CK's points
True and ironic that the existence of the UN often makes it less likely for needed actions to be taken which could abate the "last resort" open military hostilities.

When CK explains EU "fatuousness" by stating that it is: "Not because its members are venal but because they are sovereign."..I wonder. I have lived in Europe for several years, visited several times, and appreciate much I encountered and many people I met. Like Dude3344 and DavidMac, I think the big picture IS the main point. When members of the EU contemplate energy dependence, Iran with nukes and leaders who give voice to their daydreams of a world w/o the USA and Israel, and perhaps most significantly their own demographics--are they envisioning a EU united under shariah law? Already it's think twice before you make a film, draw a cartoon, present an opera, teach the Crusades or Holocaust, and even in the US-- voice fears about flying imams whose behaviors cause concern.


Roy
I think we often see others through the prism of our own character. If we treat others with care and honesty, we tend to assign those same traits to others until they prove otherwise. You don't even know many of us who continue to support the efforts of the US troops in Iraq, but you might assume that we are callous, greedy (m-ic) types, or, at a minimum, ignorant. If you automatically assign those motivations to us, that may say something about your own character.

Yes, there were major problems with the way US interactions with Iraq evolved through the years. Yes, tactical and strategic problems continue; guess what, as long as human beings are involved, there will be mistakes. BUT, WE ARE THERE. Future ramifications of our actions henceforth must be considered to the best of our ability.

Point: Saddam was "intolerant of Islamic nuts"?



Roy, continued
oops, I was answering the phone and accidentally posted.

Point: Saddam supporting "Islamic nuts"--would that include things like mailing "suicide martyr" families thousands of dollars per POP!

Point: As for getting out like we did in VietNam.
Congress precipitously cutting off funds (our troops had already left) after we had agreed to a joke of a "peace" treaty while promising our allies in South VietNam that we would continue to fund their efforts. Just sit back and watch as millions die in battles fought with broken equipment b/c we would not send parts, in re-education camps, in boat-lifts as hundreds of thousands flee year after year, in refugee camps, etc. Oh, yeah, then watch the party in (Kampuchea)-Cambodia as the Communist Khmer Rouge do their "killing fields" thing.

Sometimes this world offers many bad courses of action or inaction. Like you, I, and many who reach conclusions different from both you and I, go to Jesus as we search for guidance. We will do our best, but remain human, flawed, and in need of the Resurrection and Forgiveness we celebrate tomorrow

The Iraqi War
We went to war because the UN was not just feckless, utterly unable to uphold its own security resolutions, but also utterly corrupt. It's not enough to say the UN Security Council wanted to nothing...they were in bed with Hussein.

The war was and is totally justified.

As far as casualties go, they're virtually a non-factor. We lost more in a month in WWII than in five years in Iraq. Half of the three thousand plus dead you read about aren't even combat casualties.

As wars go, this is as good as it gets.

No one here even knows what real war is. Real war means millions dead. Even little wars, such as those in Vietnam and Korea translated into what, 50,000 dead each?

Iraq is hardly a "national disaster" so whatever your name is who posted that, you need to put your nose in a history book. Look up, say, the Civil War (6 million dead adjusted for today's US population).

Look up, say, the Nazi war on the Eastern front w/ the Soviets. D-Day is a joke compared to the ops run there.

Ed
Joe, I don't even like GWB on most issues, but the Iraqi war is genius. Young people die in wars. Is this news to you?

They all volunteer to die. I'm sure that's a shocker to you but have it ever crossed your mind that Marines might die?

Why should I enlist? Why should politicians enlist? Why should anyone enlist if they don't want to? We have an armed forces that is, get this, all volunteer.

War is hell. Most over there would tell you F off and virtually everyone I've seen or spoken to say the media image of what goes on there is utterly despicable. They spend years building schools, revamping electrical power plants, protecting democratically elected politicians...meanwhile if some Syrian or Iranian "insurgent" (because 80% of captured/killed enemy combatants are not even Iraqis) or Jordanian blows up a bunch of Iraqi Security Forces grads during a ceremony, it's plastered on the NY Times whereas the positive aspect is ignored.

You're clearly a puppy of the media. What does Michael Savage call it...oh right, sheeple.

merry_go_boy
Conoco was born in a little town in Oklahoma. Citgo was born in Venezuela. Big difference. LOL

BTW
Conoco stands for Continental Oil Company, which used to be its name.

What has the EU got to do with it.
Last I heard Great Britain is not part of the
European Union. Last time I went to England
(October 2006) I still had to meet my expenses
with the pound sterling.

Maybe I went through these wordy posts too fast,
but I did not see one challenge to the initial
presumption that the EU owes Great Britain something because of sisterhood in the Union.

And what are the "laws of Europe" to which Great
Britain is subject. Boy, I must really be behind
the times.

One last question: Does the EU exist to maintain
international order? I had never heard that one
before either. I thought it was an essentially
economic institution with some side benefits of
being able to cross borders pretty much at will
and being able to thumb their collective noses at
the once almighty US of A.
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