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Friday, March 30, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
The wars against radical Islamic insurgents
by Charles Krauthammer
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"Our bill calls for the redeployment of U.S. troops out of Iraq so that we can focus more fully on the real war on terror, which is in Afghanistan."

-- Speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 8

The Senate and the House have both passed bills for ending the Iraq War, or at least liquidating the American involvement in it. The resolutions, approved by the barest majorities, were underpinned by one unmistakable theme: wrong war, wrong place, distracting us from the real war that is elsewhere.

Where? In Afghanistan. The emphasis on Afghanistan echoed across the Democratic aisle in Congress from Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee to former admiral and now Rep. Joe Sestak. It is a staple of the three leading Democratic candidates for the presidency, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards. It is the constant refrain of their last presidential candidate, John Kerry, and of their current party leader, Howard Dean, who complains ``we don't have enough troops in Afghanistan. That's where the real war on terror is."

Of all the arguments for pulling out of Iraq, its comparative unimportance vis- a-vis Afghanistan is the least serious.

And not just because this argument assumes that the world's one superpower, which spends more on defense every year than the rest of the world combineddoes not have the capacity to fight an insurgency in Iraq as well as in Afghanistan. But because it assumes that Afghanistan is strategically more important than Iraq.

Thought experiment: Bring in a completely neutral observer -- a Martian -- and point out to him that the United States is involved in two hot wars against radical Islamic insurgents. One is in Afghanistan, a geographically marginal backwater with no resources, no industrial and no technological infrastructure. The other is in Iraq, one of the three principal Arab states, with untold oil wealth, an educated population, an advanced military and technological infrastructure which, though suffering decay in the later Saddam years, could easily be revived if it falls into the right (i.e. wrong) hands. Add to that the fact that its strategic location would give its rulers inordinate influence over the entire Persian Gulf region, including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Gulf states. Then ask your Martian: Which is the more important battle? He would not even understand why you are asking the question.

Al-Qaeda has provided the answer many times. Osama bin Laden, the one whose presence in Afghanistan presumably makes it the central front in the war on terror, has been explicit that ``the most serious issue today for the whole world is this Third World War that is raging in Iraq." Al-Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, has declared that Iraq ``is now the place for the greatest battle of Islam in this era.''

And it's not just what al-Qaeda says, it's what al-Qaeda does. Where are they funneling the worldwide recruits for jihad? Where do all the deranged suicidists who want to die for Allah gravitate? It's no longer Afghanistan, but Iraq. That's because they recognize the greater prize.

The Democratic insistence on the primacy of Afghanistan makes no strategic sense. Instead, it reflects a sensibility. They would rather support the Afghan War because its origins are cleaner, the casus belli clearer, the moral texture of the enterprise more comfortable. Afghanistan is a war of righteous revenge and restitution, law enforcement on the grandest of scales. As senator and presidential candidate Joe Biden put it, ``If there was a totally just war since World War II, it is the war in Afghanistan.''

If our resources are so stretched that we have to choose one front, the Martian would choose Iraq. But that is because, unlike a majority of Democratic senators, he did not vote four years earlier to authorize the war in Iraq, a vote for which many have a guilty conscience to be now soothed retroactively by pulling out and fighting the "totally just war."

But you do not decide where to fight on the basis of history; you decide on the basis of strategic realities of the ground. You can argue about our role in creating this new front and question whether it was worth taking that risk in order to topple Saddam Hussein. But you cannot reasonably argue that in 2007 Iraq is not the most critical strategic front in the war on terror. There's no escaping its centrality. Nostalgia for the ``good war'' in Afghanistan is perhaps useful in encouraging anti-war Democrats to increase funding that is really needed there. But it is not an argument for abandoning Iraq.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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It's all about oil
As long as the Dems prevent drilling for oil in Alaska, off our coasts, and prevent the building nuke power plants. Our national interest and the worlds will always depend on a stable middle east.

Can You Feel the Love
Coming our way from the rest of the world when we leave Iraqis to bathe in their own & their childrens blood. How long until the chaos spreads to Saudi Arabia and we're forced to try to gain a foothold in the area again.

Let's bleed twice over the same real estate, the Dems have it figured out. They'll blame Bush for botching it! Works on everything else thats wrong in the world today.

But this time its going to go nuclear, as countries like Saudia Arabia rush to "buy" bombs or missiles capable of stopping their enemies because the Democrats just showed that we can't be trusted to help them do it, no matter what we say.


Oh yeah
and if you think we won't sell them the nukes...do you think Russia, India, China would object to making a few bucks?

Dems
If we are forced pull out of Iraq by defundibg our troops, will you be willing to ride your brand new bike to work if the oil supply is cut off??? Be sure you take off your training wheels.

sloo
I like that post.

Does anyone believe these pols in DC are interested in our national security?

Bush leaves the borders open and the dims want the terrorists to take over the Middle East and the oil supply.

Maybe when the oil is finally in the hands of the radical Islamists and we are cut off, the dimwits in DC will finally decide to drill for our own oil off the coasts of our own country. Duh!

Pep
Cuba can drill off our coast and we can't.

Take the bus

to work.

That is my plan for overcoming the loss of inexpensive oil and gas. Shell oil can have a sale on gas and I won't buy any from them since they are in bed with Iran. So what can you do?

The (D)s will be the first ones crying and whining about the price of gas, all you have to do is wait and you will see.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, my bus is a 1999 Chevy Suburban 4X4.

Democrats
The Enemy Within!!!!!!!!!

Piece of Cake
If I was stupid enough to be a powerful Washington politician and wanted to be absolutely certain to support correct policies -- all I would have to do is listen to these Democrat knaves, and support the exact opposite of what they propose.

I keep hoping I'll wake up in my bed one day and find out this has all been a bad dream and that the adults (read: true conservatives) are back in charge.

Socialism
We shouldn't forget that the Democrats have always had a warm place in their hearts and a soft place in their heads for socialist governments especially if they are headed by a dictator. The former Iraqi government was considered to be socialist and the Afghanistan goverment was ruled by religous zealots the Taliban

Oil Supply...?

We don't need no stinking oil supply!

That seems to be the Dem Motto. We're putting our economic future in the hands of those who want to bring us down, and they're raising our taxes too! Yes I DO mean the Dims.

About drilling for own? Don't bet on it! The Dims are so beholden to the tree-huggers we'll NEVER cultivate our own supplies from the Alaskan or Gulf fields.

That would make too much sense. THEY argue there is a finite supply in Alaska, 25 yrs. worth seems to be the popular figure, BUT that 25 yrs. would buy that same amount time to develope alternative energy sources. Instead of doing the obviously smart thing, the Dims want to bring us to our knees economically first. And did I mention they're raising taxes too! Go Figure.

Funny thing about the Gulf is that Mexico, China, Venezuela and a host of others are drilling off our coast and, the eco-freaks only get upset when we 'think about' doing the same.

Point is, we all know what to expect WHEN these guys drilling there already have their disaster. WE will be taxed to clean up the mess, because what will any of those countries care when it the slick stretches from Texas to Florida?

Fool
"Our bill calls for the redeployment of U.S. troops out of Iraq so that we can focus more fully on the real war on terror, which is in Afghanistan."

-- Speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 8

Pelosi is a fool and a "Useful Idiot" (if I may borrow a phrase from the KGB)

If she thinks that the only place for the WOT is Afghanistan she is criminally incompetent and blind. All one has to do is pay attention to the new (REAL news not MSM) and they will see that islam is attacking on multiple fronts and must be confronted.

If America pulls out of Iraq, before the mission is completed, it will send a signal to the terrorist scum that America isn't willing to stand and fight for the long haul. This would cause another Vietnam, but this seems to be the goal strived for by the DhimmicRATs.

????? ??? ???????!

Learn first, write second
K should learn something before slapping down the **** he calls a column. Try http://juancole.com . AQ in Iraq is only distantly related to the AQ of BinLaden. The Iraqis took the name because they thought it would be cool. They admired the operation in the US. How is it that this new terrorist group can spring up? Where is there a country so lawless and hating America so much? Welcome to the new Iraq!

liberalgoodman
Please explain your plan for making America secure from attack by the Islamonazis.

But whats the major issue of the day?
Some Doofus on American Idol. Even saw something on TH's front page about American Idol.

Problem is most American voters are off in lala land. They'll probably never snap out of their trance until there is some guy with a whip walking through the streets in the US whipping all the women who aren't wearing their burka's. And whipping the men who don't spread their prayer rugs 5 times a day pointing toward Mecca. DD

If I had to use one quote from this
article to show the delusion of the neo-con hack it would be *Martian would choose Iraq* Do you think the neo-cons will decide that Martians are a threat now too?


Iraq first then Afghanistan
If we leave Iraq ,how long til the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan have to wait before their renforcements from Iraq arrive to continue the battle with the infidels? While the mujahadeen were able to repel the soviet war machine back in the 80's it was only with the help of the US. Iran wants to back the mujahadeen against the US and will probably ally for a time against the great satan with Wahhabi extremeist just to push The US out much to the delight of the homegrown 5th column who are salivating at the thought of a US defeat (read ANSWER,code pink, just about any socialist movement). The world that waits for us following a retreat is not a utopia in which the democrats are rewarded for their opposition to the war by being given control of a secular progressive north america, they are apostates, which the Islamist have a special plan for.....

lgm
Perhaps you should read Doctor Krauthammer's column carefully before spewing the excrement you call a comment. Try the quotes from UBL and al-Zawahiri. How does a leftist website trump direct quotes from the AQ leaders?

Saddam
Saddam was a lot of things but he was not an islamic extremist. But of course, in the chaos that is Iraq, there are many islamic extremists that come in many different shapes and colors. And for the Sunni and Shiite extremists, who keep killing each other at a rate of 100 a day (the surge notwithstanding), the only thing these two islamic extremeists can agree upon is their hatred of the US and Israel.

Sorry Charles, sooner or later (and lets hope sooner), the Republicans will realize Iraq is a no win situation. As conservative commentator, George Will, said recently, "If there are not 70,000 less troops in Iraq by Nov. 08, there will be 70 less Republicans in Congress in Jan. 09"

Every presidential candidate that supports this war will go down in flames come election time. This is, simply, a political fact of life.

lgm
"Where is there a country ... hating America so much?" Here's a poll from the latest Economist. The percentage of Iraqis who want us out immediately is 35%. That's a substantial percentage, it is true, but it's not even a majority. People like you always think that the people in a foreign country who agree with and like America don't count and that the real essence of that country is the America-hating part, even if it's not a majority.

As for AQ in Iraq being different from AQ of Bin Laden, I can't see why that matters. As someone else pointed out, we are fighting reactionary Islam on many fronts. And maybe the most important front is the home front.

Face it, lgm, people like you don't have an answer for the murder of Theo van Gogh. You just refuse to come to grips with the problem. And when a party doesn't have an answer, people who are worried will turn to other parties who do have the answer. So what is your answer?

LGM
Are you riding your tricycle to work? Libs only cry about the problems, but are not willing to do something that makes sense.

Pathetic post, Sashal
Dr. Krauthammer has more intelligence in his fingernail clippings than most of us, especially you, with your childish, school yard taunts and mocking tone. He IS a neo-con (a realist or former leftist/liberal mugged by reality) which you disdain because your tiny, immature brain cannot absorb anything above an idealistic third grader or indoctrinated 6th grader. Get with the program and study your opponents evolution to his position before making yourself look silly.

If you weren't aware, in addition to his academic and medical creds, Krauthammer worked for the Carter administration and wrote speeches for Mondale. His sojourn from democrat to neo-conservativism is no doubt well reasoned and logical, that of a scientist and deep thinker. I don't always agree with him (maybe 98%), but like Thomas Sowell and other really smart people, I pay attention to what they have to say, and most of the time, LEARN SOMETHING.

You won't learn anything by hanging out with the dullest crayons in the box. You obviously develop your train of thought from listening to Rosie or Sean Penn.

But thanks for once again demonstrating the juvenile, irresponsible and irrational thinking of the radical left. It also shows why now, more than ever, cooler heads MUST prevail and overcome this epidemic of stupidity sweeping the country, with a particular virulent strain infecting the dhimmicrat party.

Rosey
There is a article about you on TH

Oil
What happened to the mantra "Blood for Oil"? Because that is what this war is about. I know that outrages many, but let's face it. Oil is what this country and this economy run on and if the crazies take over the world's oil supply, we will have to fight them. Let's just get on with it. There is nothing wrong with taking and keeping control of the oil supply. It was largely American companies that discovered it, developed it, and maintain it. And we don't steal it, we pay for it. If we do not want the world to sink into total chaos, and we don't, we have an interest in the Middle East and so does every other country in the world. They are just sitting back and letting the U.S. do the heavy lifting. Again.

JFP
Apparently LGM has run away.

Roadmaster
Well said!

Charles K. is certainly the essential Neo-Con, as many on the right are today.

People like P.J. O'Rourke were left-wing back in the 1960's. O'Rourke worked for a left-wing student newspaper in college until a group of radical, extremist left-wingers broke in and destroyed the place.

That opened his eyes to how the leftists REALLY operate regarding "free speech". The last thing the leftists want is for you to have the freedom of choice, speech, association etc. The leftists will instead choose for you.

If that's the kind of world you believe you want, I'd suggest emigration to Cuba or North Korea.


Anyone else think
that Nancy looks kinda hot in that picture with GWB? Yummy grandmummy I reckon.

My dear friends
The war with Germany is going bad.

Thousands were killed during D-day and our armed forces were pushed back in the Ardennes.

Our advances in Northern Italy have come to a complete stop and the Germans have liberated Mussolini from our prison in the Alps.

There is absolutely no proof of Germany being in anyway involved with the attack at Pearl Harbor

Germany never attacked us.

It is time to come to the realization that the war with Germany is a conflict we cannot win and concentrated in the real enemy: Japan

HA! HA!

It is a shame the article is based on strategy

Like if the position of the Democrats is based on logic.

The position of the Democratic party is based on the irrational belief that the US is an evil imperialistic nation who is in Iraq to turn that country into a neo-colony of the US.

Another reason is that many among the Democrat's base believe that the hippie ideology of the sixties can translate into a coherent foreign policy: i. e. "if we appeal to their goodness they will drop their weapons and join us in a festival of peace."

For many Liberals; Germany killed all these people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Because a brigade of Liberals was not rushed in time to do an intervention on the German psyque

You're missing the point Charles
These votes were not about doing anything with the military. The Democrats know full well that this may be the one issue that Bush will actually pick up the veto pen for. Whether he does or not, he will not withdrawl the troops on their time table, because to do so is to consign the Iraqi people to the same fate the Democrats so willingly consigned the Vietnamese to when they lost the stomach for a fight they helped to start.

These votes are about making the Iraq war completely and soley Bush's affair. They are about letting Hillary off the hook for her former support of the war in Iraq. The Democrats are now on record as being opposed and if the war continues, it is all Bush's fault.

Once again, the Democrats are selling out our future to try to secure theirs.

It doesn't take a military genius...
...to realize that going into Iraq was exactly the right strategic decision. Anyone who thinks the WOT could be won simply by removing the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan has either never thought the entire thing through or is an historical ignoramus. The strategic location of Iraq should be as plain as day to anyone with a modicum of common sense (this leaves out liberals and Democrats). By going to Iraq we put our military right in the heartland of Islamofacism--we took the fight to the enemy and placed ourselves right on the border of the next regime we will have to confront--Iran (and maybe Syria as well). Mistakes, miscalculations and incompetence have plagued every war since the beginning of time but our biggest mistake in Iraq was too few troops and too many rules of engagement. Much of the responsibility for this lies with the administration but let's be honest, Bush would have been pilloried by the MSM and the Dems no matter what. He tried to fight this war and not offend anyone's sensibilities and you cannot fight a war that way. He tried to wage war and minimize not just US casualties but the enemy's as well. I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the Democrat party is invested in defeat and have been almost from the start. Sure, some dems voted to give Bush authorization to go to war but that was only because the polls told them to. The reality is that they have never supported the war, the troops, the mission and least of all Bush. Everything they have done almost since the beginning has been designed to force failure on the President and to undermine the war effort. The evidence of this is so great as to not warrant mention here but again simple common sense reveals the truth of this. Clearly then, this is all a well-orchestrated campaign to destroy the Bush presidency, which began after the election of 2000 and was ginned up during the invasion and occupation of Iraq. They want political power and the White House regardless of the cost even if it means losing the war in Iraq. Bush cannot be permitted to succeed, especially now after they have invested so much in securing his failure and the defeat of the United States in Iraq. Their lastest seditious effort to cut off funding and to clamp a surrender date (redeployment??!!) onto it is nothing short of sedition and I never thought I would see, in my lifetime, elected members of the US Congress engaged in something so nefarious and subversive (and they seem to be doing it with such glee). If they were capable of shame it would be a most shameful thing. What a disgrace to the memory of all of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country. This whole episode will be regarded by historians as a turning point in modern American history. The administration should regret the mistakes that have been made in this war but the Democrats and their allies in the MSM can never live down the shame of their near-treasonous efforts to lose the war (and for my money you can delete the word "near").

Question
If we abandon Iraq and then had to go back in:

Who would trust us enough to go back in with us?

Specially among the Arab states?

You think we are alone now?

You haven't seen nothing yet?

The Democrats have absolutely sold out to the Worlds Socialist Party

The Democratic Platform is indistinguisable from that of those whose goal is the destruction of the United States.

They ought to, at least, have the honesty of declaring themselves an International Concern and not a representative of the interest of the United States.

Nancy Pelosi hot!?
Dude; I believe that qualifies as necrophilia

Mao
ha ha ha - well, if Coulter can have her admirers, then there's no reason why Nancy shouldn't. Hope my wife looks that good when she's her age!

sashal
If your 8:39 post is the best you can to 'add' ANYTHING to the discussion maybe you should go back to Huffpo where that would qualify as 'high-brow'.

Jihad
What is the Democrat plan for fighting Jihad. By what I mean by JIhad, I have two items.

The first is a description of how the Muslims moved into Persia.. notice the similarities to the crime they commit in Europe today..

Then after that , I show how Islam in its core teaching obligates the Muslim to do this. It's a religious obligation and an eschatological requirement.

Oh and let me already state what the responses are going to be.. 1 - Taking it out of context 2 - Using a bad translation 3 - English doesnt have the same meaning as Arabic 4 - (My favorite) Billy did it too!!! (Comparing to other religions... this tactic is designed to prevent Islam from being discussed)


1 - Persian Conquest Example

"More Moslems came, and soon a small mosque was built, which attracted yet others. As long as Zoroastrians remained in the majority, their lives were tolerable; but once the Moslems became the more numerous, a petty but pervasive harassment was apt to develop. This was partly verbal, with taunts about fire-worship, and comments on how few Zoroastrians there were in the world, and how many Moslems, who must therefore posses the truth; and also on how many material advantages lay with Islam. The harassment was often also physical; boys fought, and gangs of youth waylaid and bullied individual Zoroastrians. They also diverted themselves by climbing into the local tower of silence and desecrating it, and they might even break into the fire-temple and seek to pollute or extinguish the sacred flame. Those with criminal leanings found too that a religious minority provided tempting opportunities for theft, pilfering from the open fields, and sometimes rape and arson. Those Zoroastrians who resisted all these pressures often preferred therefore in the end to sell out and move to some other place where their co-religionists were still relatively numerous, and they could live at peace; and so another village was lot to the old faith."


Boyce, A Persian Stronghold of Zoroastrianism, pp. 7-8;



2 - Islam 101


Shortly before Muhammad fled the hostility of Mecca, a new batch of Muslim converts pledged their loyalty to him on a hill outside Mecca called Aqaba. That Muhammad's nascent religion underwent a significant change at this point is plain. The scholarly Ishaq clearly intends to impress on his (Muslim) readers that, while in its early years, Islam was a relatively tolerant creed that would "endure insult and forgive the ignorant," Allah soon required Muslims "to war against all and sundry for God and his Apostle." The Islamic calendar testifies to the paramouncy of the Hijra by setting year one from the date of its occurrence. The year of the Hijra, 622 AD, is considered more significant than the year of Muhammad's birth or death or that of the first Quranic revelation because Islam is first and foremost a political-military enterprise. It was only when Muhammad left Mecca with his paramilitary band that Islam achieved its proper political-military articulation. The years of the Islamic calendar (which employs lunar months) are designated in English "AH" or "After Hijra."



Muhammad's greatest victory came in 632 AD, ten years after he and his followers had been forced to flee to Medina. In that year, he assembled a force of some ten thousand Muslims and allied tribes and descended on Mecca. "The Apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Kaba." (Sira, p550)


Volume 3, Book 29, Number 72;

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Kaba (taking refuge in the Kaba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him."


Following the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad outlined the future of his religion.


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177;

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour {of the Last Judgment} will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."


Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24;
Narrated Ibn Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."


It is from such warlike pronouncements as these that Islamic scholarship divides the world into dar al-Islam (the House of Islam, i.e., those nations who have submitted to Allah) and dar al-harb (the House of War, i.e., those who have not). It is this dispensation that the world lived under in Muhammad's time and that it lives under today. Then as now, Islam's message to the unbelieving world is the same: submit or be conquered.

Charles Krauthammer
One thing that I can say automatically about Charles Krauthammer is that I find myself agreeing with him 90% of the time. What frustrates me is that when I disagree with him I invariably find that he was right and I was wrong. When he does make a mistake, we are always wrong together.

This article is no mistake. One of the best arguments for remaining in Iraq is that it is a magnet for Al Qaeda and all the evil it represents. As he so eloquently states, we are in a war, not a police dragnet intended to find one man and bring him to justice. Would I like to find him? You bet I would but the primary objective is to destroy all elements of Al Qaeda that represent this growing danger to the world, not to put bin Laden on trial and then behind bars.

OF all the idiocy....!
The Democratic leadership has reached a new low in this latest nonesense. Of course Iraq is of greater strategic importance than Afghanistan. Karuthammer is right on target. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't a neocon; he's making sense.

As a liberal Democrat, the only reason I'm against the war in Iraq is that I think it's been so badly mishandled that it's losing whatever value it might have originally had. Our troop strength was never adequate to the mission, which was never very well-defined to start with. Then it got confused with lots of silliness about promoting "democracy," which has about as much chance of taking hold in Iraq as advocates of gay marriage have of converting American conservatives to that opinion.

The only reason for the US to go to war is to protect our country, its assets around the world, and our allies. Democratizing the Middle East is not a reason to go to war, nor is Bush's fantasy of "ending evil" enough of a justification either. We do not have enough troops and blood to end evil anywhere, let alone in the Islamic world.

What we do have is what some Pentagon strategists call the "long war," that decades-long conflict with Islam looming ahead of us. I look at the Iraq war as a warmup act for a conflict that will be with us for a very long time. I don't think we handled it very well. We should have simply destroyed any and all al-Qaeda assets in Iraq, toppled Saddam, and ended it then and there. No democratizing, no futile efforts to mediate among rival warlords and their militias, no goofiness about getting Sunnis and Shiites to get along. If anything in Iraq popped up as a threat to us, we should have been ready to take it out. In fact, that's what we should be doing all over the Islamic world. We should be tracking the money and the manpower to all of its sources (even in Saudi Arabia), and informing Arab governments that we will end these threats by any means necessary. Then we should back up our words with actions. No, we don't have to roll our tanks across their borders like we were re-running WWII; how many hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent on high tech weaponry, special ops, intel, etc. over the past few decades? We should have been using all of that against any jihadists who looked out of their holes.


Tin Foil Hat
>The Democratic Platform is indistinguisable from that of those whose goal is the destruction of the United States.<

This is the type of blather that makes conservatives look like fools. If that's really your political philosophy, you should back away from the Kool-Aid.

rickster
Excellent post!

Our greatest strength is our greatest weakness. Our geographic position in the world in which we were protected by two oceans enabled us to grow into the world's greatest super power. Until 9/11 we had suffered no significant military or quasi-military attacks within our borders that emanated from a foreign source. I suppose it was natural that one political party would become concentrated with men and women whose only concern would be domestic policy and the controlling and stifling of all sorts of freedoms protected by the Constitution that might threaten their political power. It wasn't always true. This has been an evolution. Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt took us to war. Harry Truman finished the fight and took us into Korea. Kennedy and Johnson took us into Vietnam. But Vietnam was the turning point. Those democrats, call them neo-dems, the hippies and counterculture of the 1960's, cared not for sacrifice. They only cared for self-gratification. Their drugged up culture that was on display at the outside at the Chicago Democrat Convention in 1968 found their way to the inside by 1972 and since then have controlled the democrat party.

When our very existence is threatened and we need to think survival, this culture considers only where they are in their plan to build a socialist, cradle to grave experience they call utopia and I call hell.

Critical Bill
"ha ha ha - well, if Coulter can have her admirers, then there's no reason why Nancy shouldn't. Hope my wife looks that good when she's her age!"

Are you willing to spend the money?

Well, Mr. notamormon
Perhaps you can enlighten us to how the dhimmicraticks DIFFER from the global socialist movement.

After you do that, justify for us their rhetoric, which echoes or is echoed by our enemies.

Tin Foil Hat #2
>When our very existence is threatened<

Exactly how is our very existence threatened? Is it possible to actually have coherent points presented without such ridiculous claims of armageddon?

ch47 jockey

I agree with your 8:42 post but you stopped short of naming the REAL protagonist when you say > "Iran wants to back the mujahadeen against the US"...

Personally, I feel it is the Russians who are doing the Backing of Iran who is backing the insurgency in Iraq.

Putin's Russia (Soviets still) is looking to "get even" for Reagan's 'backing' of the mujahadeen against them in Afghanistan. The direct result of that war brought the USSR to it's knees and, now Putin (with help from the Dims) is attempting to do the same to US.

A side-note,

And little known fact that went unreported and, is still under-reported is Sen Edward Kennedy's corresponding with the Soviet leader of the time, Andropov during that period of war in Afghanistan.

Kennedy sent a go-between (read; flunky) to offer Andropov (I heard it was a "guarantee") AIR TIME on American TV where he could tell the American people how Ronald Reagan was 'dangerous' and that the Soviets were really our 'friends'. This is called treason if you happen to be Republican or for most of us not named Kennedy.

I believe the appearance was supposed to be on CBS'60 minutes but don't quote me. Regardless, it shows the Democrat Party was and is the 'enemy within' and the MSM was and remains collectively, a willing accomplice. This is also called treason but the press hides behind the 1st amendment on stuff like this (though they shouldn't be allowed to do so...after all TREASON IS TREASON!)

It also proves the Russians are still engaged in open warfare with us. That they still harbor a vision of world domination Soviet style and, are taking a shot at accomplishing their goal, while quite literally taking a shot at us!

Even a quick check of the math concerning the price of gasoline shows the trouble we're heading for. Does $5 a gallon sound too high for anyone here? Think of what that will do to your way of life.

This is why I think the various Persian Gulf nations will become nuclear capable very soon. It has become evident to everyone around the world that America has an 'internal problem' that we must deal with before anyone can trust our word on anything ever again.

Politicizing the war in the manner that Congress has chosen to do has let everyone see that problem for themselves. Our elected 'leaders' (I use the term loosely) have displayed a willingness to sacrifice the well-being of our own troops! How does anyone here think that is going to improve our stature in the world?

Just watch how many NATO countries look to either shift their allegiance or move to keep our 'leadership' capacity in the organization to a minimum.

Keep in mind too that even the worst outcome when proven to be a direct result of the Dims actions will still be blamed on Bush & the MSM will second the motion.



uthah
How is our existance threatened?

Simple: 10 nuclear bombs smugged across from Mexico or Canada detonateed by people who are very religious and spiritual and out of a bottomless love and zeal for Allah do that which is the greatest act one can do in Islam.. JIHAD.

Blood for Oil
Every time there is unrest in the Middle East the oil price shoots up

Iran makes billions
Russia makes billions
Venezuela makes billions

I guess it is a blood for oil war after all!

You guys just have the wrong beneficiary

HA! HA! HA!


utahmormon

you wrote > "back away from the Kool-Aid."

Do you really think quoting Bill O'Reilly was a wise thing to do? I mean won't your friends think you are watching The Factor and have flipped sides?

I am sure it was no more than an attempt at humor which so obviously flopped.

PS
Get your own material or better yet an original thought why don't you?


utahnotmormon
"Exactly how is our very existence threatened? Is it possible to actually have coherent points presented without such ridiculous claims of armageddon?"

Check out what Vince P says about the conquest of Persia. That sounds very much like what is happening in Europe, and to a lesser extent here. Of course, much of what is happening never gets reported in the MSM. But the murder of Theo van Gogh was reported, at least. And as I said above, no one on the left has an adequate response to that incident.

Utah
How is our existance threatened?

Simple: 10 nuclear bombs smugged across from Mexico or Canada detonateed by people who are very religious and spiritual and out of a bottomless love and zeal for Allah do that which is the greatest act one can do in Islam.. JIHAD.

Murtha a World Socialist?
World Socialist Party:

“The “enemy” that Washington is now trying to defeat in Iraq, however, is the product of Washington’s colonialist occupation itself, which is overwhelmingly opposed by the people of Iraq.”

John Murtha

“When U.S. forces first entered Baghdad, the Iraqi people cheered as the statue of Saddam Hussein was torn from its pedestal. Forty-two months and $400 billion later, . . . 61 percent of Iraqis think killing Americans is justified. . . We are considered occupiers. The longer we stay, the harder it becomes for the Iraqis to find their own destiny.”

World Socialist Party

"The sectarian carnage is the focus of media coverage in the United States and internationally for an obvious reason: it is used to justify the false claim by the Bush administration that American troops are engaged in a struggle against terrorists who would carry out mass killings if the occupation were ended.
Millions of Iraqis are aware, however, that the divisions tearing apart the country have been directly stoked by the US occupation since 2003."

John Murtha

"Our military has done everything asked of them. It is time to bring them home.’ Many of the troops had become demoralized and were poorly equipped. Two years after the war, their very presence in Iraq was impeding Iraq’s progress toward stability and self-governance.”

Any Questions?

Blackmail
What about this scenario: The US bunny-hops out of Iraq and Iran moves right in. Now Iran has all of Iraq's oil, plus its own (though the supply is dwindling). Time goes by, Iran gets nukes because no one will oppose them on this. The US (and other countries, but let's just focus on the US) develops a biofuels industry or reverses on nuclear energy (anything to cut the ties with Iran/Iraq for oil) - only now Iran threatens to use its nukes in a hostile manner if the US doesn't continue to buy oil from them. Blackmail, pure and simple. Forget about blowing Israel off the face of the earth, that can wait when you can blackmail the US into doing your bidding. Impossible? Ask South Korea, which willingly concedes to N Korea's threats for the sake of "peace."

ChairmanMao
So this is the plan you want?


+ The US leaves in humiliation


+ A real Civil War happens


+ The Iraq Version of the Taliban gradually take control of the country


+ Osama Bin Laden moves in

+ Al Qaida plots what turns out to be the largest terrorist attack on US soil in history


+ US issues Ultimatum to the Taliban Iraq govt to hand over Al Qaida.


+ They ignore it

+ We invade Iraq.

Of course it wont be simple this time. Becuase after all this had happened (because we left), you will then know what it is really like to be hated.


Yeah Democrats AWESOME PLAN.. Seems kinda familiar though

Importance of War in Iraq
Brilliant! Thank you, Charles, for your clear thinking, logic and historical background so needed today. (I wish you were a presidential candidate. Then I could once again have faith in our country.)

I have one grandson fighting in Iraq and another who served three tours of duty in Iraq with the Marine Corp from March '03 through '06. Yes, they, too, agree the war in Iraq is where we should be.


Kimway
Please thank your grandchildren for me for their service.

Krauthammer thinks
that because al-Zawahiri, from his cave in western Pakistan, said the most important fight for Muslims is in Iraq, that therefore the most important fight is in Iraq. Again ignoring the obvious fact that before the American invasion, al-Qaeda was indifferent bordering on hostile to Iraq (in which case al-Zawahiri’s proclamation is more properly seen as opportunistic, rather than strategic), Krauthammer’s thesis fails the facts of recent history. He must have forgotten that one time Osama bin Laden hid out in Afghanistan with the Taliban’s explicit support, attacked American military assets in Saudi Arabia and Yemen, bombed two embassies, bombed the World Trade Center then finally knocked it down eight years later, and punched a big hole in the Pentagon. And that’s just al-Qaeda’s attacks on specifically American targets. Neither Iraq, Iraqis, nor people funded by Iraqis ever did anything of the sort. Yet, to Krauthammer, Afghanistan is the strategic backwater.

To echo one of Krauthammer’s other points: Afghanistan’s non-infrastructure is precisely why it should remain a priority. Furthermore, his characterization of Afghanistan as strategically unimportant is, again, ignorant. In fact, I daresay Krauthammer so vigorously defends the Iraq war because he has rhetorically painted himself in a corner, and is unwilling to admit that all of the original reasons he used to support it—Saddam’s connection to 9/11, his WMD programs—never existed. Nor does he seem to realize that his proposed strategy of fighting in Iraq because al-Qaeda’s leadership says that’s where the real fight is, is strategically stupid. That’s like attacking a bee hive by swatting bees, instead of going after the queen.

The common thread in looking at Krauthammer’s article? Ignorance. Sadly, it’s par for the course these days.

Common Sense

Other than former or active military personel, students of history and, conservatives... does anyone really know what the term 'beach-head' means?

OK... now all you Libs out there, try to use the words 'beach-head' & 'Iraq' in the same sentence.

Regardless of why or how we got to this point, THAT is exactly what we'll be giving up, and have to fight for and bleed for to capture again if the Dummycraps have their way.


Lessons from the US Civil War
The Civil War started after the federal port of Fort Sumter in South Carolina was attacked. Therefore, if we follow the Democrat "logic," the North should have only retailiated and attacked South Carolina.

So?
Do any of you do anything more than post your thoughts on TH? Are you letting your congress and president know exactly how you feel? Are you calling your local papers and telling them you don't appreciate their one-sided reporting and because of that, you are no longer subscribing to their worthless print? Are you calling your television stations and voicing your opinion on their coverage on current event? Or are you just sitting in your chair and writing on TH? I agree with what is being said here.....but what are we doing? I have three sons in the military...one coming back from Afghanistan, one in Baghdad, and one getting ready to go to Baghdad. Don't you think they need more than just rhetoric? I have written my senators, my representative and my president this morning. I send military reports to my local paper and ask that they be printed. I ask my relatives and friends to do the same. Please stand up and be vocal....but more important..stand up and be active. This is OUR country!

gruntmomx3 is on the right track
WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN.... I did this morning and I suggest everyone elso does.

Be respectful but make sure you let them know what you think. My own
representative is a 14 term do-nothing who not only has the loony left, white
liberals, but through his pandering and posturing in the Hispanic community,
runs unopposed every election.

Here is my letter to "my buddy," in Washington

Dear Congressman ________;

Thank you for helping me finally convince my Mother that the democrat party is
no longer the party of FDR, of which she has been a lifelong supporter. As a
mother of 2 Viet Nam vets, another son currently deployed to Iraq, wife, sister,
aunt and daughter of veterans, Mom could no longer stand by while you and your
cohorts undermine our troops, the President and ultimately our country.

After Congress' shameful and unconstitutional vote adding a timetable for
retreat and defeat to the supplemental Iraq spending bill, Mom changed her voter
registration to Independent, and has even expressed regret for her reluctant
ballot cast for your lovely colleague, Rep. Gabby Giffords.

Congratulations! You dhimmicraticks did more in one day than I've been able to
do in years. Keep it up.

Respectfully,

(roadmaster)

gruntmomx3

As a matter of fact I have in the past and continue to do many of the things you suggest.
The BIG problem I have is this...

My Senators are named Kennedy & Kerry.

My Congressman is named Delahunt who I think has the IQ of a cold turd. The rest are Dims as well (the entire state delegation!!!) with only Stephen Lynch (South Boston) having any guts or any clue about what is important.

One of the newspapers is a subsidiary of the NYT (even my LOCAL Transcript is almost a word for word reprint of the sickly grey & dying lady) who could care less about my lonely voice echoing in the Massachusetts wilderness.

The MSM outlets? I gave up on them long ago for obvious reasons so I cannot cite any particular instance of their bias to call them on. Gotta watch 'em to be able to do that and, I refuse to waste my precious time doing THAT.

I instead donate goods that troops might need or appreciate receiving from someone who cares. Lip balm, chewing gum and a host of other items we back home can readily obtain and, send along. This is one of the few ways a Massachusetts conservative can know his voice is heard.

Thank you for raising such a fine trio of young men. Please pass along my sincerest Thanks to your sons as well.


Critical Bill
Had you ever dated a beautiful liberal woman (there's a few, and I have), you would quickly discover that whatever attractiveness is outwardly present, is instantly erased when they open their mouth and all the UGLY inside them spews out.

Talk about a turn off.....Reminds me of my first wife.

gruntmomx3
Thanks to your family too for your service and a big AMEN to all you said. Yes, I do write my congressman and both of my senators regularly. I found it even more fun to not only write but to also call his office. It is my hope that I made my point with Senator Salazar's staff the other day when I personally voiced my ire over his near-treasonous vote on that senate spending bill. Again, thank you for the service of your family.

Krauthammer
I knew sooner or later I could depend on him to write what most thinking people know and have known since this war's inception. The libtards are dumber than usual today. So because Saddam is a secularist so we should have left him in? Really? Doesn't matter if he was a secularist. HE WAS THREATENING AND KILLING PEOPLE AT MACH 5!!!! I also noticed none of the libs can speak to the sheer geographics of Iraq. A democracy smack dab in the heart of the Middle East with money can have a profound effect...especially on Iran. Al Oaida in control of Iraq with funding would be disastrous. I really don't get what is so hard for people to understand. What is it about liberals that they are incapable of seeing what is in front of their face?!

Magnificus
I can totally sympathize with you. I have Boxer and Feinstein, and my congresswoman makes Pelosi look smart. She is none other than Woolsey! You know the complete dumbazz running around with McGovern.

lolo: a question
you stated:

"Al Oaida in control of Iraq with funding would be disastrous."

From your statement i gather that you think that if the the U.S. military leaves Iraq, Al Queda would take over.

So what youre actually saying is that you and your fellow republicans have absolutely zero
confidence that the Iraqi military and police force can defeat the insurgency and be responsible for internal security of their country. repubs/cons are constantly predicting
disaster should the u.s. military leaves.
Is this your opinion also?

Iraq the wrong war?
We were already at war with Iraq and had been since the first Gulf War NEVER ENDED!
Even a Liberal should be smart enough to know with Afghanistan & Iraq on our plate already it would not be wise to take on Iran & Syria along with Afghanistan & Iraq.
Libs seem incapable of understanding the size and scope of the IsmamoNazi war. This war is being waged Worldwide, in all parts of Europe, asia and Africa. Who or how the war started is lost in several centuries of history. Attempts to drag America into this war also date back many decades.
America was formally dragged into this war when Carter showed a yellow streak and failed to respond to the Iran Embassy attack. The al-Qaeda attack on 9/11 forced America to fight back or be slaughtered like sheep. Blame at this date is irrelevant. Libs who have dramatized this war for politics and delude themselves about gaining power if Republicans loose a war can't seem to grasp the fact that America will become part of a Caliphate if we loose this war and nearly all male Americans will be punished and executed for denying Allah. Iraq is an important battlefield in the WOT. A retreat from Iraq would betray millions of trusting allies and leave them to be tortured and slaughtered.It would surrender control of Iraqi oil to Iran and greatly enhance our enemy's power. al-Qaeda would be given an entire nation to draft, equip and train terrorists using Petro Dollars. The land would eventually need to be retaken at a higher cost in life because none would dare be our Ally after we betrayed all who trusted us before.
While you Libs plan surrender please be aware IslamoNazis intend to conquer in the Biblical sense using the Koran.
Have you noticed whenever the body of anyone captured alive by IslamoNazis is found there is evidence of extensive torture? Information is not the object and nothing but death will end it . The true believer thinks he will be rewarded in Paradise for every pain he inflicts on an Infidel. Civilians often purchase Infidel captives so they can punish and kill them to obtain rewards in Heaven. Anyone who does not own a firearm would be easy to capture alive. This war won't end in Iraq. It will take several decades more to end this war. What can end in Iraq is any trust of National Security in the hands of Democrats. They have two years and if they fail the Democrat Party is HISTORY.
Democrats have already shown us their victory plan.
It's called "Slow Bleed"
In case any Lib is naive enough to think this war is confined to Afghanistan & Iraq.
http://omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=2048&MenuID=603&ThreadID=1014010

Lolo

I am hoping the GOP puts up some serious opposition to the Dims around here in '08 because I think there are a few that are 'ripe' for the pickin'.

There is a radio station trying to get Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling to run against John "I'm a Viet-Nam war hero you know" Kerry for the Senate. Not so sure thats a good idea but at least he IS popular and Kerry IS NOT!

The fact is, our 'new' Governor has grown old with the public real fast and, has a lot of people looking at local pols a little more closely than usual. Not a good sign for Barney Franks, Bill (that dog don't) Delahunt and others from the wrong side of the aisle.

Nancy Pull-outski & John Murda's tactics may just fire up enough opposition to drive the Libs from office across the country. But it will only happen if the GOP puts a real conservative at the top of the ticket. Not one of the current three RINOs the MSM is so hot for.

Here's hoping! And here's my plug for my choice of a REAL Conservative Candidate...

Help Make Fred Thompson OUR 44th President!

Visit http://draftfredthompson.com/index.php


Add Your Name To The Petition.
Become Part Of The Growing Number Of Fred's Backers


When I knew we'd take out Saddam....
I recall a cover photo on one of the major newsmagazines back when Saddam was gassing his Kurdish population, and I knew that one day the US would have to take him out. Some of you might remember. A Kurdish man is trying to shield a little girl, probably his daughter, with his own body, but both he and the little girl are dead, their bodies already stiff with rigor by the time the photo was taken. My own daughter, my first child, was almost exactly the age that little girl appeared to be, and I could imagine that father's last, desperate hope as he tried to keep her alive.

Somehow, someday, the US would get involved, and remove Saddam. In thinking that thought I knew that there was no way we could take out all of the tyrants who kill little girls, but this monster would someday get what he deserved.

Reasons like this aren't reasonable; they don't fall into the easy calculations of either supporters or opponents of our war in Iraq. But they do matter. I'd never heard of al-Qaeda back then, but I knew there were plently of Muslim whack-jobs out there who hated our guts. Even more than that, there were men who claimed to be heads of government, men who'd taken some sort of an oath at some time in their lives, to protect their own people. And Saddam gassed them instead. I don't regret that we captured Saddam or that he died surrounded by the mockery of his enemies.

But having said this, I still do not think we should be trying to democratize Iraq, and we've already learned that we cannot pacify it. Let them slice each other to pieces; my students and friends who've served in Iraq tell me that the natives are very good at this, and enjoy it. Let them have their fun; they're still barbarians.

Redeployment = surrender
Redeployment = surrender. Its that simple. The Democrats can use such terms as redeployment until they are blue in the face. But we all know its surrender. I just wish one Democrat would be honest and say it the way it is. Maybe I'd have some respect then.

Give it up already
I would like to take a different cut at this:

Ask yourselves how a GOP candidate running in 2008 is going to defend continuing the war in a debate with a reasonably moderate Democrat who hates the war (like a Jim Webb type).

The Democrat is going to ask how this war ever ends and what the endgame and exit strategies are--and the GOP candidate will have no answers. The media will pepper the GOP candidate with the same questions. What's he going to say? What can he say?

Ask yourselves whether ANY Republican candidate for President in 2008 can defend the idea that we should continue fighting in Iraq even past 2009, year after year, in an open Presidential debate in October 2008 with the Democratic candidate for President.

How, when Bush himself failed to sell the war to the American people on January 10? He proposed his "surge"--and his approval numbers went down and the public overwhelmingly opposed any further escalation of our involvement there.

You're setting up the GOP and the conservative movement for a total shellacking in 2008, because you can't defend the policy when you've got an inarticulate and incoherent Chief Executive who is unable to.

Bush and his war policy is destroying the GOP just as Carter and his economic policies caused a Democratic shellacking in 1980.

Think about that!

Fred: because it isnt surrender...
that's rnc propaganda to slur democrats..

I'll say it again. you repubs/cons think the iraqi military and police force are a bunch
of pushover wimps that cant defeat the insurgency and maintain security in THEIR country. Exactly how long should it be be before they take over the responsibility?

Give it up already!
I would like to take a different cut at this:

Ask yourselves how a GOP candidate running in 2008 is going to defend continuing the war in a debate with a reasonably moderate Democrat who hates the war (like a Jim Webb type).

The Democrat is going to ask how this war ever ends and what the endgame and exit strategies are--and the GOP candidate will have no answers. The media will pepper the GOP candidate with the same questions. What's he going to say? What can he say?

Ask yourselves whether ANY Republican candidate for President in 2008 can defend the idea that we should continue fighting in Iraq even past 2009, year after year, in an open Presidential debate in October 2008 with the Democratic candidate for President.

How, when Bush himself failed to sell the war to the American people on January 10? He proposed his "surge"--and his approval numbers went down and the public overwhelmingly opposed any further escalation of our involvement there.

You're setting up the GOP and the conservative movement for a total shellacking in 2008, because you can't defend the policy when you've got an inarticulate and incoherent Chief Executive who is unable to.

Bush and his war policy is destroying the GOP just as Carter and his economic policies caused a Democratic shellacking in 1980.

Think about that!

Left Angle
Why do you ask? I will say I do not have much confidence in the Police Force. And yes to your question.

Magnificus
Thanks for the sight. I feel your pain. I have been blasting the Republican Party here. They put up little opposition to the candidates and do little in the way of education. I can't remember Mass. ever being conservative, but I do remember a time when CA was. It probably will only change when California is bankrupt which will be soon. Then maybe these people will wake up and pay attention and cop as clue.

Lolo
I think it will take more than bankruptcy. First, we need a Republican Party. I live in a district that used to be represented by James Rogan and the GOP can't even field a candidate anymore who knows he is running. So long as William Simon is in charge, the GOP simply will not be taken seriously. There are several districts and other races there for the picking but not only can't the GOP cough up money to support candidates, they often endorse Democrats!

grunt: letter to congress
I sent this to my potantate of IL-3

My letter to Congressman Lipinski (D) IL-3
March 26, 2007
Daniel Lipinski
Congressman – Illinois 3rd
1717 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Dear Mr. Lipinksi:

The Congress of the United States has made me so angry that I’m writing this letter at 2AM on Monday morning 26 March.
I can not believe… my mind is still processing this… I can not believe that the House of Representatives have passed the atrocity that is HR1591. In your statement you write:

“In particular, I am glad that this bill provides $750 million to SCHIP, enabling children in Illinois to continue to receive quality health care. And the $400 million in funding for LIHEAP will help many of my constituents heat their homes throughout the winter."

What?!

You are GLAD that a bill that hands over Iraq to Al Qaida in 2008 contains more than $1,000,000,000 in pork for Illinois. Blood money, Congressman… the bloodiest. I am distraught that I’m represented in the Congress of the United States by someone who is GLAD that he was bought off by the extreme Left in Congress.
Congressman, do you know anything about the enemy we face? Do you? The ONLY people you should be (as your statement put it) “pressuring” is the vast array of Jihadis who are running wild all over the Earth. But no, you want to “pressure” the President.
No matter what the faults of President Bush are… and there are many… do you think he needs more pressure? And Pressure from craven politicians from Congress no less.


Why is no mention of our enemy to be found in your statement, Congressman? Or is the enemy the President?

The Sunni and Shiite Islamic Jihadis are absolutely determined to destroy us. They state this themselves as much as they can. They are not motivated by economics, technology, or some secular Marxist ideology.
They are devout followers of their religion. They believe in the core of their hearts and minds that they are working toward the betterment of mankind by destroying us. Their religious faith is what propels them and fills them with confidence.

Al Qaida and others have explicitly stated they are relying on Anti-American and Leftists domestic groups in the United States to emasculate the US. You , sir, are the tool they are relying on. You’re glad?
Are you glad that you’re validating their religious faith? YOU are contributing to their confidence that Allah will bring us down just as Allah brought down the Soviet Union.
Islam has been at war against the world since 622AD. Do you think they’re not going to wait ONE MORE YEAR for us to leave Iraq… just as the Soviet Union left Afghanistan and then fell out of existence.. and feel they have defeated a second Superpower?
This is going to cause an EXPLOSION in Islam. They are going to go into such a frenzy of religious revival, the blood will be flowing from all quarters of the Earth.

Congressman: You and your party will have contributed to untold destruction because you caused the US to back down. Back down to Jihadis! Jihadis who destroyed Persia… Jihadis who destroyed Byzantium and Constantinople. Jihadis who have been savagely brutalizing the Israelis.
Why Congressman..? Why? Please don’t tell me that you hate Republicans so much that you have to offer up the country as a sacrifice. I hope you’re not one of those people.

This is a map of Jihadi attacks around the world since 2003. 4,454 attacks with 28,957 dead.





Your vote has confirmed to the Jihadi that it is only a matter of time before the United States is completely neutralized and their effort at imposing Sharia upon the world is a certainty.
I think Bridgeview is in your district. Our little local hotbed of Islamic terror. I scanned through your press releases going back to 05 and I don’t see any messages about any involvement with that community. I infer from that and your enthusiastic support of this bill that perhaps you are not aware of the basics of Islam.

Congressman, I’m an Italian-American male, 32 years old now. Grew up in Bridgeport, went to High School in Oak Lawn.

I knew as much about Islam as anyone else… which is to say.. nothing. In the 90s, I was living in Hong Kong and an English ex-pat asked me what I thought about some strange Arab guy Bin Laden.

Tuff tuff.. I told him it’s absurd that anyone should give him any attention, he’s a media creation and that’s all. Later that year two US embassies were destroyed. I was determined to find out why I had dismiss the man… what did I not know that I should have known? That required learning about Islam.

Islam is more than the standard personal faith that most religions are. Islam is also a Totalitarian Military-Political System that will tolerate nothing other than itself. And will use any means (nothing is too extreme) to spread itself.

I have the misfortune of working in the Sears Tower… any out of place noise in that building causes me to go through my internal “have we been attacked” checklist. I do not feel any more secure with that travesty that you voted for

Please learn about Islam and undo the damage you and your party have done. Below my name I will leave you with some words about Islam that men far greater than myself have spoken


Sincerely,

======

[The rest I attached to my letter]


John Quincy Adams wrote:

In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adams's capital letters)… Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant… While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and goodwill towards men."

Lord Tebbit wrote:

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years"

Vernon Richards wrote:

"The true Islamic concept of peace goes something like this: "Peace comes through submission to Muhammad and his concept of Allah" (i.e. Islam). As such the Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war. It was inevitable and unavoidable that the conflict would eventually reach our borders, and so it has."

Andre Servier, 1922 wrote:

“Islam was not a torch, as has been claimed, but an extinguisher. Conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people, it was - and it remains - incapable of adapting itself to civilization. Wherever it has dominated, it has broken the impulse towards progress and checked the evolution of society.”



Theodore Roosevelt wrote:

“The Greeks who triumphed at Marathon and Salamis did a work without which the world would have been deprived of the social value of Plato and Aristotle, of Aeschylus, Herodotus, and Thucydides. The civilization of Europe, America, and Australia exists today at all only because of the victories of civilized man over the enemies of civilization, because the victories stretching through the centuries from the days of Miltiades and Themistocles to those of Charles Martel in the eighth century and those of John Sobieski in the seventeenth century.”

“During the thousand years that included the careers of the Frankish soldier and the Polish king, the Christians of Asia and Africa proved unable to wage successful war with the Moslem conquerors; and in consequence Christianity practically vanished from the two continents; and today nobody can find in them any "social values" whatever, in the sense in which we use the words, so far as the sphere of Mohammedan influence. There are such "social values" today in Europe, America, and Australia only because during those thousand years the Christians of Europe possessed the warlike power to do what the Christians of Asia and Africa had failed to do - that is, to beat back the Moslem invader.”

David Selbourne – The Losing Battle with Islam:

"Of course, there are distinguished precedents even for the bleakest and coarsest of these judgements. To Montesquieu in 1748, Islam’s ‘destructive spirit’ spoke ‘only by the sword’; to Schopenhauer in 1819, the Koran was a ‘wretched book’ in which he had ‘not been able to discover one single idea of value’; to De Tocqueville in 1843, Islam was ‘deadly’, ‘to be feared’ and a ‘form of decadence’". –

Winston Churchill, wrote in 1899:

“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism”.

John Quincy Adams who wrote in 1829:

"The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force".

John Wesley (1703-91) who wrote,

"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind".

Hilaire Belloc who wrote in 1938:

"Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans -- still nominally Christian -- and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam".

Bishop Fulton J Sheen who wrote in 1950:

"Today (1950), the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world Power".

Patriarch Cyrus of Alexandria, while negotiating the surrender of Alexandria to the Muslims, 640 AD:

"I am afraid that God has sent these men to lay waste the world".

Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica, 1354:

"For these impious people, hated by God and infamous, boast of having got the better of the Romans by their love of God…they live by the bow, the sword and debauchery, finding pleasure in taking slaves, devoting themselves to murder, pillage, spoil…and not only do they commit these crimes, but even — what an aberration — they believe that God approves of them. This is what I think of them, now that I know precisely about their way of life.".

William Eaton, US Consul to Tunis, wrote in 1799:

"Considered as a nation, they are deplorably wretched, because they have no property in the soil to inspire an ambition to cultivate it. They are abject slaves to the despotism of their government, and they are humiliated by tyranny, the worst of all tyrannies, the despotism of priestcraft. They live in more solemn fear of the frowns of a bigot who has been dead and rotten above a thousand years, than of the living despot whose frown would cost them their lives…The ignorance, superstitious tradition and civil and religious tyranny, which depress the human mind here, exclude improvement of every kind…"


And how about this quote from Ayatollah Khomeini from 1942:

“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers] Islam says Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us Islam says Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy Islam says Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” - Ayatollah Khomeini

In defense of the UK, Winston Churchill 1941:


You cannot tell from appearances how things will go. Sometimes imagination makes things out far worse than they are; yet without imagination not much can be done. Those people who are imaginative see many more dangers than perhaps exist; certainly many more than will happen; but then they must also pray to be given that extra courage to carry this far-reaching imagination. But for everyone, surely, what we have gone through in this period - I am addressing myself to the School - surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. We stood all alone a year ago, and to many countries it seemed that our account was closed, we were finished. All this tradition of ours, our songs, our School history, this part of the history of this country, were gone and finished and liquidated



lolo: I ask because..
I am constantly hearing from Prez Bush and republicans that if the U.S. military leaves It
would be disastrous for Iraq. I have a hard time
believing that because supposedly the U.S. is investing heavily in training, arming, and equipping the Iraq military and police force to take over the job of security for their country.

so either this disaster you repubs/cons are predicting is more political fearmongering or you think that the Iraqi military and police
are a bunch of pushover wimps who wont fight back. You think that the Insurgency will walkover them like they arent even there.

is this your viewpoint?

It is not a Surge is an Offensive
From distinguished Historian Arthur Herman:

"I think one of the reasons why Iran has acted in the kind of provocative way which it has this last week, was precisely because they were feeling the heat from the Petraeus offensive.

That’s my term for it. I don’t like the term surge. Surge, I think, doesn’t describe what’s happening there.

This is really the Petraeus offensive, and a whole different way of conducting the war, including cutting off the Iranian support, and going headfirst, and really making sure that that kind of support is undercut. And I think the Iranians are feeling the heat, and that is one reason why they’ve tried to drive this wedge.

. . .But yeah, but to come back to your question, I think in some ways here, what you are really seeing is that we’ve got a general who finally understands and gets it about the counterinsurgency in Iraq. What we need is an administration that’s going to deal with the counterinsurgency at home, which is taking root in the Democratic Congress.


Read the whole interview here: http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/Transcript_Page.aspx?ContentGuid=ae1c9a46-90e2-4cf0-97e3-983ae9a3c4eb

War on Islamic Terrorists
The war on Islamic extremists is global. It is wherever they are and cannot be fought by invading countries that house them because just about every islamic nation and most other nations also have them within their borders. Saddam threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States and so will the current Iraqi regime whose majority are Shia and therefore they will most likely ally with Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon against all the Sunni nations unless there are major changes in attitudes between the two sects that at present don't seem to be happening. Until Islam can reform itself, reject Jihad and modernize, turn away from Radical Islamic Republics, turn away from blaming Israel and the US for their problems and begin to establish real economies that actually give jobs to their peoples and bring prosperity, we will just see more of the same, endless terror against us and Israel and endless battles between Sunnis and Shias. We cannot combat this situation by invading countries but by containment, eliminating the need for Middle Eastern oil, and by controlling the situation within each country that has been invaded by islamic militant immigation such as Australia, and Canada and most of Europe. Even France has begun to realize what a mistake it has made by allowing a militant Islamic underclass to be established in their country and it might be too late for France but Canada is waking up as is Australia and taking steps to draw the lines which will allow them to preserve their own culture.

sashal
Exaggeration is cheap. Krauthammer doesn't suggest Afghanistan is a strategic backwater, but that it is not the primary line of confrontation between international Sunni wahhabism and the West -- Iraq is. He's right.

You will probably never allow yourself to become smarter on the fact that Saddam did, in fact, have extensive ties with Al Qaeda, and supported other terrorist factions in the Middle East, all Sunni wahhabis. However, others here may benefit from recalling that the US government did not allege that Saddam had a hand in 9/11, as a pretext for invading Iraq, but rather that Saddam supported Sunni terrorists, including Al Qaeda, with funding, training facilities in Iraq, and actual training at those facilities.

In the 1990s, there were two primary NATIONS whose leaders supported global wahhabi terrorism: Afghanistan and Iraq. Two other nations supported terrorism directed specifically at Israel: Iran and Syria. From a fifth nation, Saudi Arabia, private sponsorship (not by the government) made up a significant percentage of the funding for Sunni wahhabi terrorism.

After 9/11, when Bush declared war on global Islamic terrorism, the variety that most urgently needed to be arrested was (and still is) Sunni wahhabi terrorism. The Sunni wahhabis are the ones who committed 9/11 and all the 1990s attacks on US interests, as well as the Bali nightclub bombing, the attacks in Madrid and London, etc. (There is little evidence that Iran has yet sponsored an attack outside the Middle East, and Syria's and Libya's sponsorship of terrorism in Europe declined significantly after the 1980s. Iran and Syria focus today almost wholly on Israel -- and Iraq.)

Bush's strategy was to go after the primary national sponsors of Sunni wahhabi terrorism: Afghanistan and Iraq. In both nations, the government sponsors of international terrorism have been eliminated. Preventing such state sponsors from reemerging depends on ensuring stable, transparent popular government in BOTH countries.

Bush was never short-sighted enough to think that all we have to do is capture Osama bin Ladin, and voila! terrorism over. Therefore, arguing against his policies as if that's what he intended, and he somehow got derailed or lost control because he's an idiot or a Big Liar, or whatever, is a weak and invalid argument. It's made by people who (a) don't know anything about international Islamic terrorism, and (b) don't know anything about the actual US strategy in the war on terror.

Al Qaeda is one facet of Sunni wahhabism, and while it has ties with other Sunni wahhabists (e.g., in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Chechnya, even Malaysia and Thailand), it doesn't "control" them. It's more like they all play in the same league, and trade players sometimes, and Al Qaeda has lately been the perennial champion -- the golden boys getting all the press, coming up with the great new plays.

If you're going to argue against Bush's policy, know what it is. Bush's policy is on track. Sure, he wants to find bin Ladin. But that won't make America and our allies safe from international wahhabism. UBL himself means very little.

Bush wants to change the conditions that have aided and abetted international Sunni terrorism; state sponsorship -- most recently by Afghaninstan and Iraq -- having been a really big one.

If you think all we needed to do was prosecute those directly responsible for 9/11 (in some unelaborated way), and beef up security at our airports, well, more power to you. That's an argument; go ahead and make it.

Do look beyond the unvarying refrain of the mainstream media for your "facts," though. The weakness at the core of your unspoken premise is that the Sunni wahhabis don't regard Afghanistan as the main front in their war with the West. The Taliban are comparatively untroubled by their help, in the conflict with Coalition forces there. Sunni wahhabis of all origins, the perpetrators of global Islamic terrorism, are boresighted on Iraq.

ABC News and the Saddam - Osama Connecti
Before you brainless leftists attack dyerje for supporting the claim that Saddam had ties to Osama by stating something to the effect that Bush/Cheney invented the claim and doctored things to support it, check out my website where I have a video clip of a report by ABC News from 1999 which alledged such connections. Scroll to the bottom of the page the video is near the bottom

http://vincep312.home.comcast.net

Wahhabi Islamic Doctrines
Poll: Most Americans Oppose Palestinian State, More Concessions
by Ezra HaLevi
IsraelNN.com, March 30, 2007

65% of Americans believe that SAUDI ARABIA IS NOT A RELIABLE & TRUSTWORTHY ALLY in the war against radical Islamic terrorism. 11% believe it is.

51% of Americans believe that the US should impose economic sanctions on Saudi Arabia until it stops its support and FUNDING FOR TERRORISTS & RADICAL ISLAMIC EDUCATION that teaches hatred of America and Israel. 26% disagree.

ZOA National President Morton Klein said that members of the House and Senate should be made aware of the public’s support of harsh actions against Saudi Arabia. “Sanctions against Saudi Arabia for its financial support of radical mosques and spreading the EXTREME WAHHABI ISLAMIC DOCTRINES, including in American mosques, is something that Americans support.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122011

Wahhabi Islamic Doctrines - 2
Mahmoud's Magic Theater
by James Lewis
The American Thinker, March 30, 2007

We've seen this before --- in the case of Muamar Kaddafi, the theatrical autocrat of Libya. Kaddafi also loved to humiliate the West, sponsored terror attacks abroad, and tried to unite the Muslim world under his banner. The big slogan then was "Pan-Arabism." Today it's Khomeini-style Islamism in Tehran, and WAHHABI ISLAMISM IN RIYADH (SAUDI ARABIA). But underneath, it's the same world-conquering, self-glorifying, otherworldly, primitive fantasy.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/03/mahmouds_magic_theater.html

Wahhabi Islamic Doctrines - 3
Fifth Wahhabi arrested
AP & B92 (Serbia), March 24, 2007

Police said they had found large quantities of plastic explosives, ammunition, face masks, military uniforms and other equipment in a mountain cave that they believe served as a TRAINING GROUND FOR WAHHABIS -- Muslims who practice an austere brand of SUNNI ISLAM promoted by extremists, including al-Qaida.

Western intelligence reports leaked recently have suggested that Sandžak, as well as Muslim-dominated regions in neighboring Bosnia, could serve as a recruitment spot for the so-called "WHITE AL-QAIDA" -- Muslims with Western features who could easily BLEND INTO EUROPEAN OR U.S. CITIES and carry out attacks.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=
2007&mm=03&dd=24&nav_category=113&nav_id=40326

Wahhabi Islamic Doctrines - 4
Militant Wahabbi Islamists Beat Christian Evangelist to Death
by Jeff King
Christian Newswire, March 29, 2007

The Washington-DC based human rights group, International Christian Concern (ICC) has just learned that an Ethiopian evangelist named Tedase was beaten to death by militant Muslims on Monday, March 26th in Jimma, Ethiopia. This marks the second time in six months that Christians residing in Southeast Ethiopia have been attacked and KILLED BY EXTREMIST (WAHABBI) MUSLIMS...

It is important to note that the Muslims who attacked Tedase belonged to the Wahabbi brand of Islam, an extremist sect IMPORTED FROM SAUDI ARABIA. It is clear that the Christians in Ethiopia are feeling Saudi Arabia's influence, particularly in Jimma, a Muslim dominated area where local authorities are almost exclusively Muslim.

It was only six months ago, in September of 2006, that Muslim extremists burned down a number of churches and parishes, as well as Christian homes. As many as 2,000 Christians were displaced by the attack, an attempt to INTIMIDATE CHRISTIANS with the hopes of CONVERTING THEM TO ISLAM.

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/194262642.html

Vince P
Hey, thanks, shipmate. Here's another link:

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Journalist Deroy Murdock assembled the readable, concisely presented information at this website. I recommend it because it accords well with intelligence I was aware of as a Naval Intelligence Officer from 1983 to 2004.

I do have to "go ROTFLOL" on occasion when I read the writings of the media parrots who obviously get all their "information" from the mainstream media. As many have pointed out here at TH, repetition does not produce -- or eliminate! -- truth.

He even looks mean
I don't know Krauthammer personally, but when I see him on TV he looks mean.

Meanness also seems to typify his thinking. Actually, I blame him and his neocon buddies for helping to push us into that stupid war in Iraq. Some were primarily interested in defending Israel, but they ended up aiding bin Laden while hurting both their own country and Israel.

Bin Laden must be very happy about now. USA casulties continue to climb in Iraq with a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan. Iraqis and most all the world - including traditional allies and admirers - are against us. (Only Israel is more despised.) We now are on two fronts. Our debt climbs higher and higher and higher. Americans are severely divided here at home. Our military's reputation has been injured. Iraq deflected our attention from bin Laden and our main target, Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda recruitment increases. Iran and North Korea grow bolder. And the consequences continue to add up.

The answer: less arrogance and ignorance, more diplomacy and negotiation. Why is the USA so afraid of honest, straight-forward working through problems peacefully? We are strong enough to take the lead in such peace-pursuing efforts. That's about the only way we can regain our stature on the world stage.

True, Iran has a crazy at its helm. I'm not sure about the man at our helm. In truth, I think W. wants to be a decent man, but he is too much under the influence of sinister neocons that agree with Krauthammer. George! Listen to your Dad! He had the brains not to go to Bagdad. And I'm sure he would tell you to finagle a peaceful solution with Iran.

Keep smiling.

Wahhabi Islamic Doctrines - 5
Philippines teaches Islam in state schools
Reuters, March 22, 2007

According to the 2006 International Religious Freedom Report of the US State Department, there are an estimated 2,000 Islamic schools or madrassas in the country, more than half within Muslim communities on the southern island of Mindanao. Only 40 were registered with the education department.

“They are PROPOGATING RADICAL ISLAM in the guise of freedom of religion,” Victor Corpus, a former military intelligence chief who now lectures at an army war college in the United States, told Reuters. “It’s like we’re being fried in our own fat.” Corpus said nearly 300 madrassas in the country were getting FUNDING FROM GROUPS LIKE SAUDI ARABIA that propagate the HARDLINE WAHHABI form of Islam which has inspired Al Qaeda leaders.

Some of the students at the madrassa raided in 2002 were among those apprehended for the worst militant attack in the Philippines, the February 2004 BOMBING OF A FERRY that killed more than 100 people near Manila Bay.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=
World_News&subsection=Philippines+%26+South+Asia&
month=March2007&file=World_News2007032294524.xml

Bubba go away hater
vile scum

For the uninformed Liberals
Pay special attention to the inscription on Zelzad 1. Maybe one of you will be wise enough to understand this message.

http://washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20061019-090449-1441r

Bubba to you
This is the least Christian thing I have read all day. This is vile, corrupt anti-Semitism. You're out on your own limb here. Please get some help.

SteveL
If you believe what you are posting, why are you telling us not to do it. Worried???? Afraid we we are right. I want the F-kin Dems to lose, I'm not going to tell you how to defeat ne. Notice, all our posts are about protecting our troops and our country. All the libs want is defeat.

Bubba
It's the same old song you were singing yesterday, didn't get the help you need.

I don't want the conservatives to lose
sloo writes: "If you believe what you are posting, why are you telling us not to do it. Worried????"

Because I'm a conservative. That's right, a CONSERVATIVE, going all the way back to the days of Goldwater. Surprised? I voted for Reagan twice, and I even voted for the current Bush in the White House (though I regret it now).

You are destroying a conservative movement that took Goldwater and William F. Buckley decades to build up.

I'm pleading with folks here NOT to make support for Bush's insane nation-building and endless war into a litmus test for conservatism. It was only 7 years ago that conservatives were AGAINST nation-building. They did NOT believe we could export democracy into the Muslim world, which has NEVER known it for all 1,400 years of its existence, at the point of a gun. It was only 4 years ago that conservatives used to believe that you never to go to war without a clear plan in place for total victory, rather than fighting endlessly with no endgame in sight.

OK, so where is Bush's plan? Where is YOUR plan? How do you define "victory" in this war anyway? What will keep this war from being endless? What SPECIFIC conditions and milestones must be reached that will finally enable us to leave?

And now, the Bushies have demanded that we forget what we conservatives used to stand for (and stand against), only because he came up with a whole new, untested, radical idea.

What I cannot figure out is why more conservatives aren't worried about 2008. Are they all living in denial? Have they seen polls like the following one from Pew:

Percent Who Think War Is Worth Fighting

Conservative GOP: 83 percent

Moderate GOP: 68 percent

Independents: 35 percent

Moderate Dems: 20 percent

Liberal Dems: 15 percent

Outside of the hard-core GOP loyalists, support for this war has COLLAPSED, down as much as 40-50 points in each cohort in the last 4 years.

Bush and his bizarre nation-building policy in Iraq aren't worth destroying the GOP over. Any more than Vietnam was worth destroying the Democratic Party over.





SteveL
I did not want to vote for Bush because I thought he was a woosie who would turn the other cheek rather than do anything to discourage someone from slapping his cheek. (I was right.)
I also thought he stank of nepotism.

Would you rather have voted for THIS?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41106


SteveL
If you are conservative, have you thought about what may happen if we get out too soon. Osama has already said, we don't have the resolve and the will to take casualties. I bekieve GWB's plan is:
1. Get the Iraq army trained.
2. Allow the Iraq gov. time to stabilize.
3. Start a gradual withdrawal once 1. is completed.
4. A total withdrawal when the Iraq gov asks us to leave.

To those who want to pull out of Iraq
so we can fight the "real" war in Afghanistan, how much credibility will we have in Afghanistan if we pull out of Iraq prematurely?

In order to defeat an entrenched insurgency, you need intel. You need people living among the terrorists to point them out to you. If you are not trusted, then you won't get any intel.

In any case, nobody has even dented the columnists point that Iraq is strategic, and much more important than Afghanistan.

The Democrats plan, once again, has the intellectual depth of a bumper sticker.

Magnificus
don't worry the Saudi's are building a fence on the Isreali model along their border with Iraq so nothings is going to spread that way.

Magnificus
don't worry the Saudi's are building a fence on the Isreali model along their border with Iraq so nothings is going to spread that way.

out from under a rock
I see good old Jew-hating Bubba has come out from under his rock. I'm beginning to think he's some kind of DailyKos troll, posting his stuff to show the world that conservatives really are the Jew-hating fanatics so many on the left think you are. I know better, but I'd sure like to see even more criticism of this dude.In any case, the Bubster has nothing to say and says it very well.

SteveL
You are confusing public opinion with what is the "right thing to do." Like it or not we committed our country to see this through. We knew going in that Iraq is but one campaign in the overall war on terror. We knew that this war would extend beyond the term of this president and perhaps beyond the term of the next president. Iraq has been even a greater magnet than people imagined. It has certainly drawn more than Iraqi terrorists to the fray. Contrary to what you site as popular belief, I believe this is good. Because I am one of what may be a minority in this country today regarding this war does not make me wrong. It only says my opinion differs. It coincides with our president's opinion and it is his opinion that matters. We have elected him twice to represent us and make these executive decisions. He won't be able to run again. Again, this pleases me because I don't support him on some other issues. I don't regard him as a conservative, but I also don't want to digress.

I regard it as morally important that we have committed to those who support us in Iraq that we will be there to protect and to prevent the killing fields that would otherwise ensue if we were to leave. More importantly, in the interest of our own national security we proved for many years that the manner in which to address terrorism was not to negotiate and was certainly not to ignore or treat the result as a police action. It only brought more of the same, dead Americans. Could we leave Iraq without leaving a stable government able to defend itself and its citizens, yes, of course we could. But, if we do this, expect a number of things. Expect al-Sadr to turn Iraq into a dictatorial theocracy. Expect those whose fingers were painted purple only a number of months ago to be stained red from their own blood. Expect radical Islam to assume control over a major portion of the world's supply of oil. Expect al-Sadr to use this oil to promote and foster terrorism worldwide. Expect al-Sadr to ally his country with Iran. Expect a larger and a more dangerous war ultimately because with each day that it takes the majority of Americans by today's polls to understand what is really at stake, the prospect for Iran becoming a nuclear country becomes more likely. Expect that when we do have to go to war again it will be without the assistance of those whom we abandoned the last time. Expect the nature of the war to be different. Expect Iran and Iraq both to commit nuclear blackmail.

Is there truly nothing worth fighting for? The citizens of Portland and the citizens of San Francisco have made it plain that there is nothing in their minds that is worth war. Under no circumstances should we be over there. Under no circumstances should we risk war with Iran. We should “negotiate.” My question to all these people is what if that coming nuclear weapon is exploded in Washington Park or at Haight-Ashbury? Will there still have been nothing worth fighting for? Will the souls of all those who have demonstrated a hate for this country suddenly want us to avenge their deaths? Will it be too late for the rest of us?

I said it before and I'll say it again..

We should redeploy our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and have both armies meet in Tehran laying waste to they meet.

Based on the latest outrage by the Iranians taking British sailors hostage, we hesitated too long.

Bubba
Have you read the Bible? Don't make, comments you know nothing about. Jesus was a Jew, They are not his enemies, they just don't believe he is the Son of God as you don't. (Yesterday, you called him a Prophet of God.

double standard
All the ire seems to be going to al-quaida and the insurgency. So Iran supports the shites and Saudia Arabia supports the sunnis. What we have is a civil war dont you think.The double standard is we wont do a thing to the Saudies because we can ill afford to lose their oil. Support democracy in the middle east. Give me a break. There are no easy answers because there are bad guys on both sides but we will support the ones who are closer to our interests. Always have and always will.

Honesty!!!
Lets just say what we really feel, Lets suck all of G-D oil out of the middle east and then nuke the Islamic bastards to hell and then make a parking garage out it.Those people have never done a damn thing more than fight and kill each other over Religion for thousands of years.

Bubba
I read your title and then I didn't go further. Your title says it all. One doesn't join or abandon conservatism like a club. Conservatives share the same basic values. Values don't change because of war or peace. I contend that if you are as you say, not a conservative any longer, then you were never a conservative to begin with.

Krauthammer on Afghanistan and Iraq
Again, Charles Krauthammer hits the nail on the head. However, there are two more dimensions of the war in Afghanistan.

One, which was touched on in saying Afghanistan is a backwater, is that it is really more a hole in the map than a country. Bloody feuds are more the rule than the exception in Afghanistan, and no amount of well-meaning nation-building, especially by non-Muslims, will change that situation.

The other is that to fight successfully in Afghanistan, the USA must depend on the frail, frail read of Pakistan. Yet Pakistan's defense establishment has always played a double game vis-a-vis the USA and the Taleban. The Pakistani street is largely sympathetic with our enemies, and "knows" that the JOOOOOOOOOZ carried out 9/11, even while their senior maulvis praise the brave Muslim "martyrs" who did the deed and the people themselves danced in the street before it became clear that the USA could recover quickly from 9/11.


Bubba.....
....proved in another thread by his use of clearly Islamic phrases that he's a radical Muslim pretending to be a conservative in order to spew venom on this site....

I don't think he's worth wasting time and arguments on....he's been thoroughly indoctrinated with seething hatred of anything Jewish and nothing any of us can say or do will "cure" him....well, other than a one-way trip to a cave in Afghanistan...

We should all either ignore or flag him...


War on Terror
The people who support this war chant the mantra that Iraq is a magnet for the war on terror and it is better that we fight the terrorists there rather than here, etc.etc. This is such a crock. If anyone cares to take a look at who is actually dying in Iraq, one will see it is not the "terrorists", rather the vast majority of those dying are the Iraqis themselves, who are killing each other. This is less a war on terror in Iraq and more a civil war. And the US is in the middle of it. The idea that the US will win anything in Iraq is long gone.


K wrong again
Thought experiment: Bring in a completely neutral observer -- a Martian -- and point out to him that the United States is involved in two hot wars against radical Islamic insurgents.
-------------------------------------------

GEN. MAPLES:Attacks by terrorist groups, like al Qaeda in Iraq, account for only a fraction of the insurgent violence.

SOURCE:

Copyright 2006 Federal News Service, Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Federal News Service
November 15, 2006 Wednesday
SECTION: CAPITOL HILL HEARING
LENGTH: 18070 words
HEADLINE: PANEL II OF A HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE;
SUBJECT: CURRENT SITUATION AND U.S. MILITARY OPERATIONS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN;
CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA);
WITNESSES: LIEUTENANT GENERAL (U.S. ARMY) MICHAEL D. MAPLES, DIRECTOR, DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY; GENERAL MICHAEL V. HAYDEN (U.S. AIR FORCE), DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY;
LOCATION: SH-216, HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.


The Martian's Choice
Yes, but what Mr. Krauthammer's argument presuposes is that the martian would know English, and the basis for this belief is tenuous at best. Earthly interaction with Mars has been minimal, and it is more reasonable to assume a martian would not know English--rendering the argument ineffective and impotent.
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