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Friday, February 02, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Fight in Najaf
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- This week the internecine warfare in Iraq, already bewildering -- Sunni vs. Shiite, Kurd vs. Arab, jihadist vs. infidel, with various Iranians, Syrians and assorted freelancers thrown into the maelstrom -- went bizarre. In one of the biggest battles of the war, Iraqi troops reinforced by Americans wiped out a heavily armed, well-entrenched millenarian Shiite sect preparing to take over Najaf, kill the moderate Shiite clergy (including Grand Ayatollah Sistani) and proclaim its leader the returned messiah.

The battle was a success -- 263 extremists killed, 502 captured. But the sight of the U.S. caught within a Shiite-Shiite fight within the larger Shiite-Sunni civil war can only lead to further discouragement of Americans, already deeply dismayed at the notion of being caught in the middle of endless civil strife.

There are of course many reasons for these schisms. Some, like the fundamental division between Sunni and Shiite, are ancient. Some of the wounds are more contemporary, most notably the social devastation and political ruin brought upon the country by 30 years of Saddamist totalitarianism and its particularly sadistic persecution of Shiites and Kurds.

America comes and liberates them from the tyrant who kept everyone living in fear, and the ancient animosities and more recent resentments begin to play themselves out to deadly effect. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, the overwhelming majority of them killed by Sunni insurgents, Baathist dead-enders and their al-Qaeda allies who carry on the Saddamist pogroms.

Much of their killing -- the murder of innocent Shiites in their mosques and markets -- is bereft of politics. It is meant to satisfy instead an atavistic hatred of the Shiite heresy. The late al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was even chided by headquarters in Afghanistan for his relish in killing Shiites for the sport of it.

Iraqis were given their freedom and yet many have chosen civil war. Among all these religious prejudices, ancient wounds, social resentments and tribal antagonisms, who gets the blame for the rivers of blood? You can always count on some to find the blame in America. "We did not give them a republic," insists Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria. "We gave them a civil war."

Of all the accounts of the current situation, this is by far the most stupid. And the most pernicious. Did Britain "give" India the Hindu-Muslim war of 1947-48 that killed a million souls and ethnically cleansed 12 million more? The Jewish-Arab wars in Palestine? The tribal wars of post-colonial Uganda?

We gave them a civil war? Why? Because we failed to prevent it? Do the police in America have on their hands the blood of the 16,000 murders they failed to prevent last year?

Thousands of brave American soldiers have died trying to counter, put down and prevent civil strife. They fight Sunni insurgents in Fallujah, Ramadi and Baghdad, trying to keep them from sending yet one more suicide bomber into a crowded Shiite market. They hunt Shiite death squads in Baghdad to keep them from rounding up random Sunnis and torturing them to death. Just this week, we lost two helicopter pilots who were supporting the troops on the ground fighting the "Soldiers of Heaven" outside Najaf to prevent the slaughter of innocents in a Shiite-Shiite war within a war.

Our entire strategy has been to fight one side and then the other to try to prevent sectarian violence -- a policy that has been one of the leading reasons why Americans are ready to quit and walk away. They can understand one-front wars, but they can't understand two-, three- and four-front wars, with Americans fighting any and all in sequence and sometimes in combination.

And at the political level, we've been doing everything we can to bring reconciliation. We got the Sunnis to participate in elections and then in parliament. Who is pushing the Shiite-Kurdish coalition for a law that would distribute oil revenues to the Sunnis? Who is pushing for a more broad-based government to exclude Moqtada al-Sadr and his sectarian Mahdi Army?

We have made a lot of mistakes in Iraq. But when Arabs kill Arabs and Shiites kill Shiites and Sunnis kill all in a spasm of violence that is blind and furious and has roots in hatreds born long before America was even a republic, to place the blame on the one player, the one country, the one military that has done more than any other to try to separate the combatants and bring conciliation is simply perverse.

It infantilizes Arabs. It demonizes Americans. It willfully overlooks the plainest of facts: Iraq is their country. We midwifed their freedom. They chose civil war.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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You need to brush up on gang violence
Gangs are the same all over the world. They all want power and will do anything to keep it. If you think there aren't any gangs in Iraq, then you don't know gangs. The Sunni, Shiite's, Kurd's, jihadist, all nothing but gangs. They have their leaders and their neighbors they rule. Just because their Muslims, they can't be defined as gangs? They even have their colors, their clothes, and weapons. In New York, we have gangs who fight and kill one another, but we don't hear that New York is in a civil war. Just yesterday, it was reported the gangs in California outnumber the police by 4 to 1. Does that mean the police created the gangs in California because of the increase in their numbers. Does it mean California is in a civil war also because of their gangs or sectarian violence. Why should the term sectarian violence apply only to Iraq and not New York or California. Is it because we don't want to identify it as just plan old gang violence in Iraq. Next time you want to quote someone don't quote Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek. If he knew what he was talking about, he would then have to apply his theory about we created a civil war in Iraq because of the sectarian violence, with that of New York and California with their sectarian violence and not labeling their violence as a civil war also. Zakaria should take notice, that with the removal of Saddam nows the time for these different gangs to gain more power and weapons. I've heard the Sunni's and Shiite's have been killing each for for years and years. So, what new. Gangs in this country turn over neighborhoods and are ruled by the next generation who sees gang violence or sectarian violence a right to succeed because of their birth right. The same as the gangs in Iraq. Did Fareed Zakaria know how our military was aware of the Taliban making a comeback in Afghanistan. They advertised it on walls that they were back. Does graffiti ring a bell. Gangs will always let you know where they at by the graffiti they leave behind. The Sunni's, the Shiite's, the Kurd's, and the jihadist all do the same thing. They put their graffiti all over the walls in Iraq and thats how our military knows whose in the neighborhoods. Did Zakaria know that. Of course not, he's too busy trying to blame President Bush and our troops for the gang violence in Iraq with terms like sectarian violence and civil war. It's nothing but plan old gang wars.

You have all Forgotten
We did not go to Iraq to midwife their freedom, we went there to topple a regime that supported terror attacks on this country. We stayed to find Hussein and to keep the government from reverting into what we just toppled. If we leave to soon there will be a replacement Hussein and the anti American regime will do all they can to bring the war back to these shores as in 9/11

we created the problem
There were no terriorist in Iraq until we decieded to invade under false pretenses. Tell me when do you think we should invade North korea. We know for a fact they have weapons of mass destruction. Oh wait..they don't have oil though. So i guess we will stay out of that one.

unbelieveable
Nicely done LD and Dan continue the good fight. As for Krauthammer what the hell happened to you.

Dan you're so right we went there to remove the threat to our Nations Security. Then what do we do leave and pretend that the middle east has nothing to do with the very stabilization of the world for where else is Europe and Japan get their oil from and at what future cost to The U.S.
L.D. another brilliant satire at the absurdity that is this insane cry that the iraqis were freed from bondage too soon. I say the sooner you unbind a people the sooner they are able to stand on their own and face whatever comes their way
Mr Krauthammer and several people need to pull their brains out of the Shia,Sunni, kurd morass and turn their face to the brilliant light that is the shinning beauty of American Style Freedom
For this is the thing we do now in Iraq it is to establish a rule of law executed by a representitive government.

For as dumb as some have portrayed Mr Bush he seems to be one of the few that saw the problem and while everyone was screaming for him to proclaim the violence and admit all was lost he went to work on pushing Maliki to see the error in his ways of putting one sect on top of the other and to start treating them under the authority of his office as equals. Why even at this late date is the Mccain resolution just speaking of this. I dont care what a person says in private untill they act on it in there official capacity it dont mean a hill of beans.

Just days after the state of the union address where the President promised Maliki would start treating every sect equal, it starts, only to be called confusing and disturbing.

ajr
The reason you think there were no terrorist in Iraq before we came is becouse they were the guest of Saddam's regime and had no reason to be on the front page of the new york times and washington post.

terrorist in afganistan
The terrorist we were after were in afganistan and we let them get away because bush is a war moonger. And by the way. I thought the reason for invading iraq was to because they had weapons of mass destruction. guess what they didn't have any but yet we are still there. We didn't invade because there were terrorist there. Reason being there were none. But you better believe the country is crawling with them know. I don't blame them. If a foriegn nation invaded my country and one day i return home to find my wife and 4 kids dead you can bet i would be out for vengence

conservatives don't have much
you conservatives don't have anything on your side to defend you claims that global warming is not happening and is not being caused by humans. I thought you people would put up a better fight. Or is it because your leader mr. bush mentioned the problem in the SOTUA you are leaning the other way. Why don't you get a brain of your own instead of thinking how people tell you to think. I suppose you sit and watch foxnews and every time the move terror alert across the bottom of the screen you run to the bomb shelter.

ajr
You seem to have wandered over here during a lull in your fifth grade sex education class -- you really ought to stop cutting English class, you know; you'll need to learn to spell, capitalize, punctuate and write a coherent paragraph when you get to high school.

In case it has escaped your notice, "we conservatives" are the ones paying the rent, heating the house, driving you to school and keeping you fed, clothed and provided with as much education as you can absorb, not to mention free condoms and instructions on how to use them. And while your Mama has clearly not taught you that we are, in fact, The Boss Of You, I'm sure you believe in your heart that when anything bad happens, from the toilet roll running out to a suicide bomber in your junior high, "we conservatives" will put out the fires and make sure your little feet don't touch the floor as we hurry you to the shelters we have built against the day. Or, if you'd rather stay where you are and sneer at us, we'd be happy to let the building fall in on you.

After all, why should we save you if mingling with us would upset you so much that you couldn't eat the food we provided for you?

Maybe it's time you started thinking about just how your world keeps turning, and how you will live when Mom and Dad aren't there to hold your hand. Just a thought.

AJR
It would sure suck to be you...as the left-minded thinkers believe the only terrorists were in Afghanistan,so do they beleive in global warming,Ahmadinejad and Sadaam is not/was not a bad guy and North Korea,too.
Aye,yi-yi-yi....
You people say rather than do...so much hypocracy it makes me wonder. How did you get to be so hateful that you cannot understand what is rational versus delusional? It could be there in black and white and you would find a way to make it gray or purple.
I do have a brain, I do think for myself and I question all the time... For the life of me, you would think I learned not to argue with someone of the leftist mindset...but I do, thinking I can help them see the light. Hopeless, but I am a hopeful person,so I will keep on plugging.

Is that so?
Is Loyal Democrat's posting supposed to be satire? You could fool me.
I think it's just backward-thinking and irresponsible.

ajr...
There's enough illogical behavior by the sects in Iraq, we really don't need more of it from you.

Krauthammer is correct.
Our civil war was waged for many reasons, but among them was the notion to keep the United States as one, and not allow it to splinter apart.

Iraq was one nation prior to our invasion, even if held together by the brutality of Saddam.

Our invasion unleashed forces that threaten to rip, or splinter, Iraq into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish regions.

So from that standpoint the effect of military intervention in our civil war, and Iraq, is almost diametrically opposite.

But the more important question is to examine why Americans died in our civil war, and why they are dying in Iraq.

Americans gave their lives in our civil war to preserve the union, the republic. It was our nation. Americans died for our nation...they gave up their lives for Americans.

Why are Americans being called upon to give up their lives in Iraq? So that Iraq can have a "democracy"..that is what our president says. He constantly underscores the necessity of a "democratic Iraq".

If Iraqis are not prepared to give up their own lives to bring about "democracy"(preferring instead to engage in tribal, sectarian blood-letting and revenge killings), then we will make the ultimate sacrifice for them!

How noble!

Isn't that absurd? More than absurd..it suggests a deep, profound, pathological mindset that seeks to dramatically alter the political and social landscape of the mideast through the sacrifice in lives and blood of OUR soldiers.

Krauthammer is correct when he says: "We midwifed their freedom, and they chose civil war".

AJR
The Global Warming meeting in Paris said humans are to blame and Global Warming will go on for centuries! So much for changing anything. ( If you believe them). I am a skeptic on Global Warming. I believe in weather is operating in cycles.


OK Let's get out of Iraq

Let's get of Iraq and Afganistan.

Then when the blood letting is even worse with hourly beheadings, who will get the blame?

The good ole USA, for not staying there.

LD satire
krystalbird: yes, LD's comments are satire. He's just so good at it. He sure fooled me for awhile.

AJR: If you study your science, you will find many instances of global warming long before man set foot on the planet. 750 million years ago, fo instance, the whole planet was covered with ice. The continental tectonic plates (that's the land masses, for the libs) aligned around the equator. Since land reflects more of the sun's energy than water, the earth began to cool. As ice from the poles grew, reflecting even more energy, the cooling accelerated. The average temperature on earth was -40F for about 10 million years. And what kind uf suv saved the earth, you might ask. Volcanoes to the rescue, belching billions of tons of pollutants into the air, gradually warming the earth. This was just one of the many ice ages the planet has endured, though one of the more serious ones. Volcanic activity today produces about 125,000 times the amount of chlorine gas that has ever been produced by man, bot we had to spend millions to change refrigerants because of the nature nazis. It's a known scientific fact: the earth has warmed and cooled many times, long before the appearance of man. It will most likely continue to do so, and to think you can stop it is to play God.

Who's to blame?
Mr. Krauthammer,

I read your column this morning.

Knowing what you know now, would you still go into Iraq? If so, would you go in with more forces? In the run up to the 2004 election in answer to the president’s clever campaign question, John Kerry said yes, and then said he would have gone in with more troops.

There is no doubt that America is the catalyst, if not the underlying cause, for the sectarian violence that has erupted in Iraq. Before we came there was no civil war. In the eyes of neocon moralists, there was something worse: Saddam Hussein. Now, it’s obvious that Saddam had his hands full trying to keep his country from being torn apart the way it is now being torn apart. Hundreds, nay thousands, of liberal-leaning analysts predicted almost perfectly what has happened in Iraq. Keeping Iraq from imploding is probably the reason, Bill Clinton, who is said (by neocons) to have had the same intelligence on which President Bush grounded his adventure, didn’t go into Iraq, and the reason that the French and Germans and Russians and Chinese urged us to wait for the weapons inspectors to find (or not) WMDs before going into Iraq.

On the other side of the political chasm from me that divides this country, you and other neocons pooh-poohed us weak-willed liberals for seeking the UN imprimatur at all: Perle with his boulevards being named after George W Bush; Cheney with his flowers greeting us liberators; Rice with her mushroom clouds; Wolfowitz with his oil revenues paying for the whole thing; you and Karl Rove from the peanut gallery directing the whole spin strategy. Now that you’ve spun us into this conflagration, it’s more than a bit disingenuous to say that we’re not to blame for the particulars of the fray.

If we’d waited on the weapons inspectors and Saddam Hussein were still in charge, we’d know there were no weapons of mass destruction, that he’d been posing all along just to keep the wolves from his door. If we’d not gone in, the lid would still be on that pot and Saddam would be sitting on it. Now that the pressure cooker is filling the kitchen with steam, the picture of America that keeps coming to my mind: a frantic housefrau wringing her hands trying to figure out how to get the lid back on the pot with the fewest third degree burns and, in the background, all the neocons and right-wing ninnies shouting from the sidelines that taking the lid off the pot is not the problem, the hot water turning to steam is the problem.

If we’d not gone into Iraq, we’d probably also be backing out of Afghanistan at this very moment instead of ramping up. It wouldn’t surprise me if we’d be looking for ways to slip aid (military and otherwise) to Saddam Hussein to help him keep the Iraqi Shiites tamped down and Iran at bay. It wouldn’t have been the first time, not even the first time for Saddam, that we propped up a brutal dictator to maintain our preeminence on earth – you could look it up. Iraqi oil would be flowing and the Chinese and Japanese would be lapping it up over the table and we under the table. Hugo Chavez wouldn’t have been so cocky. Lots of things would have been better, but then many on the liberal side of the chasm predicted that and President Clinton was remarkable in his wisdom to see the big picture and to avoid jumping into that tar pit.

Knowing what you know now, would you still have gone into Iraq? If no, please write the column after you ask Cheney to announce it to the world. Would you have gone in with more troops? If yes, tell President Bush (after you write the column) that the surge may be too little, too late, and apologize to him for your bad counsel at the outset.

You could start the column with these words: The French were right.


Tr@ce

Krauthammer's article
seems incomplete. He acknowledges that we are involved in a civil war in Iraq. He says we're not to blame for it (and I agree).
But then he doesn't seem to propose any solutions. Does he want us to get out? It's hard to tell from this piece.

To gregdn
gregdn,

If you read Krauthammer’s columns as religiously as I do you’d know that he is good at laying the blame for the failures of President Bush’s misadventures at the feet of liberal Democrats.

He and other flailing neocons have now taken to blaming the Iraqis. Go figure.

Expect his next column to blame the Democrats for not coming up with an exit strategy that will allow for the US to come out of this unscathed. Despite the protestations of Krauthammer and others of his ilk, the Democrats have offered several exit strategies. The problem for neocons is that all of the Democrat’s exit strategies make the neocons, the president, and the vice president look like the idiots they were.

tr@ce

Iraq end will not end well
Bush decided on the surge rather than take the recommendation of the Iraq Study Group and the rest of the country to declare victory and go home. The surge only delays the inevitable such that the chaos that Bush correctly predicts will erupt upon the withdrawal of US troops will be unfolding for all the world to see at the peak of the presidential election cycle.

It will be very difficult to watch for everyone and it will doom the republicans again in 2008.

logic in Iraq
12 million Iraqis put their lives on the line to vote for a freedom not tolerated for the history of the land mass called Iraq. Why?

I don't think they did it to promote civil war,but to escape the tyranny of oppression known so long to them. They told a visiting minister from Japan, born as an Iraqi, that they accepted that thousands might die making a free nation happen, but preferred that to continuation of Saddam's quest for power and a middle east about to be captured by Islamic extremists bent on mass murder here and elsewhere to establish their idea of what God is commanding them to do.

We can retreat and let them have their way and then wonder who did it when NYC is vaporized? What to do afterwards?

Does someone have a better idea?

What will happen
My prediction for what will happen is that the Dems will continue to fight Bush at every step up to the election in 08. They will never get up the intestinal fortitude to actually vote to pull out. As the 08 election gets closer more and more RINOs will get on board with the Dems until the President is effectively isolated. At the advice of that master strategist who gave us Plamegate (Rove) Bush will decide to throw in the towel and leave Iraq just before the 08 election. Following the US pull out Iran will enter the country taking over Iraq. The smaller countries in the region will become satellites of Iran. Iran will commence destabilization of Saudi Arabia and the killings of Sunnis and Kurds will commence by the 1000s.

my 2 cents
Our being there seems to have unleashed forces kept in check and now the killing is getting worse.

But we did NOT start the killing. Given a choice most of them have chosen to kill - kill in the name of Allah or whoever or whatever.

No wonder they hate Christians so much - can you imagine one of them saying "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Could you imagine ONE of them taking that seriously?

1 more thing
I know I've said this before but it still bears repeating - a Priest once said to me the "not to forgive someone is like letting them live in your head rent free". That is true and can you imagine the effect of doing that for centuries by passing on your hate to your children?

Check memri again about Armed Children's Militias.

correction
I should have been more clear. I should have said "can you imagine the effect of not only NOT forgiving but actually passing on the your hate and desire for vengeance to your children?"

There - I Said it.

And IMO that is in large measure what we are seeing over there.

war
Is civil war, or for that matter any war, the unleashing of hell or is it an instrument of God?
For whatever reason, beyond the thinking of mortals, mankind can not live without it.

The Violence Could End In One Month
with the placement of 100-200 well placed cruise missles inside of Syria and Iran.

The Ultamatium would be simple: stop supplying insurgents with weapons;remove all "advisors" from Iraq; give CENTCOM the location of all weapon factories; give the CIA the location of all paramilitary leaders.

Failure to comply will result in: For Iran- the destruction of thier oil producing infrastructure; the systematic destruction of thier nuclear infrastructure; and finally the destruction of thier civic infrastructure to include thier political leaders. For Syria: the destruction of their bases in Bekka and Lebanon; the systematic destruction of thier military both in Golan, and thier Kurdish provinces.

The CIA and Spec Ops should be give the green light to train, arm and organize insurrections in both nations regardless of the outcome in Iraq.

I guess I make it too simple ...
It doesn't matter if Sunnis, Shites, or whatever radical is doing the killing or issuing orders for killing randomly. They should be marked for destruction by our troops. I don't see any other way to stop them except by killing them one by one -- an unbelievably tragic reality that's going to take a long time in doing.

Jerabaub
I continue to be impressed that one of the regular posters at townhall has more than reflexive right or left wing mantra on Iraq.

I do wonder about your conclusion though. Enough American analysts warned that in removing Sadaam we could also face a civil war that the Administration ought to have been prepared. Doesn't the civil war then belong in the Colin Powell pottery barn description? Yes we liberated the country from a tyrant with knowledge of what could come to pass -- does that not make us a proximate cause for the current sectarian violence?

Vic
And you call Democrats the doom and gloom party.

Consider that diplomatic efforts in the region are ongoing, except for the US.

Saudi Arabia is meeting with Iran. Turkey is meeting with Iran. The Iraqi president(a Kurd) is meeting with Iran and Syria.

One of the few recommendations the ISG suggests that I agree with is opening up a dialoguw with Syria and Iran. But the administration has steadfastly refused to open communications with either, one of the most ridiculous foreign policy decisions of a host of ridiculous foreign policy decisions coming out of the White House.

I realize that the Vics of the world only see massive military solutions, backing their opinions with claims that Iran wants to kill every westerner and invoking the name Chamberlain at the thought of direct commuication with Tehran.
This position relies entirely on believing that Ahamadinejad is Iran, ignoring that he is on shaky ground in his country because of his polarizing rhetoric and failure to attend to domestic issues. He's kind of like Bush inthat regard.



Uncle Max
>No wonder they hate Christians so much - can you imagine one of them saying "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Could you imagine ONE of them taking that seriously? <

Yes, I can imagine it.


IRAQ: KURDISH PRESIDENT OFFERS REFUGE TO CHRISTIANS

Dec. 8, 05

Erbil, 8 Dec. (AKI) - The President of Iraqi Kurdistan, Massoud Barzani, says they will welcome all Christians seeking refuge from the critical security situation in other areas of Iraq who want to stay definitively or temporarily in the region. At a meeting of religious leaders and members of the Christian community in Kurdistan, Barzani said: "We welcome any Christian brothers who choose to come and live in Kurdistan, whether temporarily or more permanently. This is their country and we will not prevent any of them from taking refuge."




Summink else to think about
Here's another point...we're in charge of security in the Middle East - for now. The Saudis especially are counting on us to keep them safe. That may be why their output has increased and the price of oil has fallen.

Let's say we pull out. The Saudis go looking for another cop. Let's say they make a deal with China. The Chinese send in a million or so troops, followed by another million or so if necessary.

What do you think happens to the price of oil here in the US and our economy?

You may say, "oh, so we're fighting a war for oil." What do you think fuels (no pun intended) the world economy? It's the same as if we find the miracle cure that keeps us from needing another drop of Middle Eastern oil. What do you think that would do to the worldwide price of oil? Drop it by a ton, allowing the Chinese, among others, to buy it at a fraction of the current price, putting us at such an economic disadvantage worldwide that the depression of the 30's might seem mild.

When did we becomes wimps?
When did we stop being the beacon of courage and freedom for the world and start becoming a bunch of weenies that run home with our tails between our legs every time the "mission" gets tough.

So stabilizing Iraq is not easy. That is all the more reason we should not trust it to anyone else. Remember how Stalin "stabilized" east Germany after WWII?

And this is also why, after we have shown the courage, fortitude, and maturity to finish what we started, and finish it right, we should stand up and proudly tell the world that this is why they should want us as their friend.

CBlue
That description also applies to the Soviet Union as well as Yugoslavia. Powell, like the President, and many people on both sides of the fence do not have the wherewithall to defend our interests, not to mention our security.

We are living a legacy of the 1991 Cease Fire Resolution. Keeping Saddam in power niether gave the region stability nor secuirty. The region that Syria, Saudi, Iran, and Iraq occupy is a simmering pot, which left on its own, would bound to explode. 9/11 was just a dress rehersal. Powell, Albright, Rice either haven't a clue, or they lack the intellect and the will to formualte an effective policy. Ignoring or talking about the problem will not make it go away.

To pancho
I base my comments on the fact that Iran is in Iraq participating in the killing of U.S. troops. That is an ACT OF WAR in anyone's definition. They are already at war with us but most of the RINOs and all of the Dems refuse to recognize that.

Doug:
I am a little skeptical when people try to simplify the Iraq situation. You said,
"Mr Krauthammer and several people need to pull their brains out of the Shia,Sunni, kurd morass and turn their face to the brilliant light that is the shinning beauty of American Style Freedom."

That's just rhetoric. It sounds fine but it is fluff and there's no substance to that idea. A democracy and a stable government cannot overcome adversity by simply having an aspiration for an ideal while ignoring the pre-existing condition and mindset of the masses. The reality is that Iraq will never be a stable factor in the Middle East until there is a solution for the complex problem of the sectarian violence.

People forget or choose to ignore that Iraq is a multifaceted dilemma in which there cannot conceivably exist a cut and dry solution. Liberals say, "Let us just get out." Many neocons say, "Fight for freedom and democracy's sake!"

It's going to take more insight than those ideas possess, not to mention a good measure of plain ingeniousness, to conceptualize a result in Iraq that will both stabilize the region and protect American interests and security.

We cannot leave and allow Iraq to fall into the hands of terrorists and thereby jeopardize our national security further.

But we cannot help stablilize Iraq when there is civil war. It cannot be done.

What's a nation to do?




Who is Iraq?
Sir,

In accordance with the reports of the last words of former-President Saddam, "I am Iraq", With his passing must most certainly be revealed in the sruggle you have described.

Iraq, the 'new' Iraq, is now gone down to the grave along with the "old". The fighting you have described and the echoes we hear in the American media, reveal the truth of the words of Saddam. Even this madman has a telling wisdom and his words may very well be fateful.

Who knows "who" Iraq is these days? Certainly not any American, neither the military, the politicians, or the media, not to leave out us Monday morning quarter-backs. So who will discover the secret, the mysterious, identity of the identitiy of Iraq.

I suggest that no one, save God, knows who Iraq is these days. The engine that drives this living-question are the very elements you have described.

In our own country we can't agree on our own identity as a nation, for us this is not new. Change here usually shifts lazily about with minor struggles every two, four, or six years. But at a few points in our short history the battle for change has been epic. This is one of them.

How then can we expect a people who for a long generation have not even considered the question of national identity find their way? Six years ago ask any Iraqi and they would faithfully and fearfully tell you, "Saddam is Iraq".

The Kurds have been ready for freedom since at least 1990. Although that was surely a black time in their histroy. They seem very stable and certainly celebrant and happy. But in their future may loom a war with Turkey.

But to Najaf; my own mind is absolutely wroth with the silly cries for the opening of our tactics, just so they may be laid out for our enemies. We, as a nation in crisis seem to be a part of what it means to be "Iraqi". Utterly bizarre. But the enemy have revealed that they have a vested interest in our own confusion and change.

The Sunnis only know they are not a part of the future of Iraq except in handfuls. Al Qaeda has no interest in beibg Iraq. But they are determined to be the true mid-wives of an Arab Iraq, unable to achieve they may just continue to rape and torture and murdur, whoever. The truth in their case is perhaps that they are men of no country. They cannot go home.

Many Shiites are perhaps closet Iranians. And for us this is the future struggle. It is perfectly possible that in an irony of blood we may be at war with Iraq, in order to protect our own interests.

Sadly, to the truths which you have so aptly portrayed, this confusion of identity must be added. This single factor resides outside the struggle yet it may be as powerful a force,as any in the field. But self-discovery is an inner struggle and this is no time for reflection.

The victory in Najaf I musy say I celebrate. Perhaps through victories such as these, presence of Americans or not, Iraq may find their heart. Unfortunately the time for reflection must be purchased with blood

As it was once said, that the blood of martyrs was the vitality of the Church,just so the question, "Who is Iraq?" may require blood to emerge from the fog of insanity, on both sides of the seas.GZ

Cblue
A consequence of our removing Saddam was it did unleash sectarian warfare.

There is an old adage that "no good deed goes unpunished". Was it not enough that we removed an odious dictator from their midst? Must we now also assume the burden and sacrifice of midwifing their democracy, as Krauthammer says?

Some people did try to warn the administration of the impending sectarianism if Saddam was removed.

But this administration either refused to listen, or pooh-poohed them as negative "doomsayers".

After all, why would anyone not automatically embrace democracy?

I don't think the administration had any comprehension of Islam and Arab culture.

Certainly it made no preparation to deal with an insurgency and sectarianism it never visualized would occur.

Claim, not fact
>Iran is in Iraq participating in the killing of U.S. troops.<

Try visiting the reality-based community every now and then.

just think
just think of all the lives we could have saved if we had only left Hitler and Japan alone.
was WW2 worth the 400,000+ american lives and untold millions of civilian lives?
was a 2 by 8 mile pile of volcanic rock called Iwo Jima worth the 27,000 plus lives lost on both sides?
Iraq is a model of how any group with an axe to grind with the U.S. will fight us for the next 50 years. just be persistant, kill a few americans, kill alot of civilians in order to get maximum press coverage, and the American public will be horrified, turn against their own country, and turn tail and run.
even though, al qaida and saddam kept each other at an arms length, their goals are, and were the same.
a world wide islamic state. saddam hussien saw himself ruling the entire arab world at the least, and maybe saw himself as world ruler.
al qaida and the various other groups may have had a different idea on who the ruler would be, but that doesn't change their common vision of a world wide islamic state.
apparenly loyal democrat doesn't think slavery is so bad....as long as he doesn't have to be one of the slaves

Pancho Writes:
Claim, not fact
>Iran is in Iraq participating in the killing of U.S. troops.<

Sigh, here we go again.

Fact, not claim. Just ask the Iranian (with his passport in his pocket) that we capped in Mahmudiyah while organizing the insurgent network there (along with some Iraqi Police, might I add). Oh wait, you can't ask him, because he went to meet Allah after he was stopped in his effort to participate in the killing of U.S. troops.

Maybe your map of where the reality based community is outdated.

wiseone
We started being wimps when the touchy feely, I feel your pain, win their hearts and minds generation took over

More reality denial
>saddam hussien saw himself ruling the entire arab world at the least, and maybe saw himself as world ruler.<

Saddam didn't even rule Kurdish provinces of Iraq after Desert Storm.
What kind of food is available in your fantasy world?

sawgunner
OK. Your claim is that one guy with an Iranian passport supports that Iran is in Iraq participating in the killing of American soldiers.

With that set as the example, then Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Yemen, Jordan, Russia(Chechens), Sudan and a host of other Muslim nations are also in Iraq participating in the killing of American soldiers.

I thought you meant the Iranian government.

reality?
pancho, of course he didn't rule those areas,
but in HIS MIND he did.
look at the endless palaces, monuments and statues depicting himself as the benovolent ruler of the Arab world.
i have seen many of these monuments in person.
SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS LIVING IN A FANTASY WORLD, and anyone who didn't share in this fantasy paid with their lives. he enslaved and impoverished his own country, and endangered every country in the region to feed his fantasy.
my post reads....."saddam hussein SAW HIMSELF ruling...."
so what are you eating?




Pancho
CENTCOM has recorded killing over 30 Iranian Revolutionary Guard "advisors" and wounding dozens of others. Revolutionary Guardsmen are also in Lebanon.

Iran also has "advisors" assigned to Sadr City and Naijaf.

Now, go put your head back in the sand.

Libs might be on to something
They seem to believe that they can talk to terrorists (why weren't they negotiating with the terrorists on those planes on 9/11). The very well might be able to talk the terrorists to death, or at least throw them into such a state of confusion that they would follow the libs in a circle until they dropped from exhaustion.

brilliant!
marion, you are right.
we could send Hillary, Nancy, Jane Fonda, and Murtha to convince the killers that it's all their fault... but it wouldn't work because they wouldn't get the extreme pleasure of blaming america instead, after all, someone who saws off the heads of defenseless reporters and car bombs kids and old ladies is really just a freedom fighter. remember?

DIDN'T ASK FOR FREEDOM?
Perhaps it seemed like nobody was asking for freedom because nobody was reporting truthfully about what was going on in Iraq before the war?

After the first Gulf War, many rebelled and were slaughtered. Were those people asking for freedom? (Yes, duh!)

How about all the Iraqi exiles living in the USA and elsewhere? They all wanted freedom for Iraq.

Saddam's regime killed 100-125 people a day. Were those people killed because they didn't pay the fines on their library books, or were they killed because they opposed the regime?

BTW: We made a mistake in not emphasizing security, safety and stability first and then allowing for more freedom afterwards.

Help please
>CENTCOM has recorded killing over 30 Iranian Revolutionary Guard "advisors" and wounding dozens of others.<

I did several searches trying to confirm this information, but was unsuccessful. Could you please provide the link.

Typical liberal modus operandi!
When the president's surge begins to work in Iraq, (and it will work), the liberals will most assuredly be re-writing history, (again), by telling the world that they were the ones that created the successful outcome in Iraq.

Global warming is another perfect example of the liberal mindset. After convincing the world that global warming is a global killer, the lib's are setting themselves up as Savior's of the planet. Especially, when all of the wild lunacy about global destruction never actually occurs.

Truth and honor means nothing to a liberal because they are blinded by their lust for power.

Iraq war
Is Iraq a mess? Yes Should we have gone in and toppled Sadam Hussein? That is questionable, however, every Congress member who voted in favor of it and giving the President the authority to do so is EQUALLY as culpable as the President. It appears that Congress is more interested in childish bipartisanship than coming up with any real solutions. They scream more troops, the President finally agrees to send them so now they don't want more troops and then they unanimously confirm the very Lt. General Petreus whose plan is to send more troops. Do they think the American people are stupid and that this country's security should be used as some play piece in their political games? Apparently so. It is a dangerous game they play since international terrorism and our success in Iraq are most definitely connected.

Pancho
That article from the Wash Post took me MAYBE one minute to find.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012502199.html

You are not using Al Gore's invention wisely. You are being reported to Al for internet abuse.

Ladynorth
At the very least we can agree that we cannot leave and allow Iraq to fall into the hands of terrorist... but and you knew this was coming.

"it sounds fine but it is fluff,and there is no substence in it." refering to my "American style Freedom" comment.

When I say that I meant every word of it. The answer to the problem is not in some complex formula it is in the rule of law executed through a representitve government.

The battle of Najaf is the start it seems of Maliki and those currently in office of the Iraq government begining to understand that. It was precisely the answer to the question of whether he would go against shiites. It is a start in the battle to stifle sectarian violence. I still dont know about Sadar,however neither do the critics of our efforts in Iraq.

What I said sounds so plain simple and fluffy and yet it has confounded the rule of a mighty king over insignificant colonies, tamed a continent,detroyed the trade of humans as property, removed a kaiser,opened up markets in asia, freed asia and europe from Japanese and German tyrany, wrestled down an Iron curtain,sent man to the moon. etc. etc. etc.

I truely understand the difficulties that lie ahead. I am also aware of the the chaotic nature that is Iraq. However In times like these why in the world would you turn away from the priciples that lead thirteen relatively insignificant and undeveloped colonies to become the greatest human power the world has ever known.








moondoggie, just think
If we'd not had a Marshall plan and stablized Germany and Japan, those areas might also have devolved into chaos. We went into Iraq with 1/2 a plan.

JP -- applies to Yugoslavia and look what happened there. Although we were less a proximate cause as Gorby allowed the USSR to disolve. As to the USSR itself -- it federalized and let some areas go. Yes, there is Chechnya but that has a long history. Otherwise you didn't see the same kind of sectarian blood bath as Yugo.

Jerabaub

I think we agree on the fundamentals.

Pancko

Of course he was a nutter. Sadaam wanted to believe he had WMD and his cronies feared to cross that.

For A War Some Have Said Means Nothing
to our true enemies (the islamofacists), they sure dont want us to win in Iraq. Why is that? We have heard tens of thousands of libs tell us the war is a waste. It does nothing to combat the real problem of terrorism. In fact it just creates more (another conundrum statement when compared with the above). Isnt this what we have been told repeatedly by the left?

Why then is Al Qaida, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and our liberals all joining together to try to defeat us in Iraq then???

To GunnyG
I just got back from lunch and saw all these "reality denial" posts from Pancho and all the responses. It really doesn't do any good to give these guys links. If they had an actual brain they would already know Iran has been interfering in Iraq for a long time and is now actually stepped in to the fighting instead of only supplying arms. I suppose they have been emboldened by the Dems, whimpering libtards, and RINOs. Pancho should go back to his pseudo reality with the Cisco Kid.

ajr
"I thought the reason for invading Iraq was becouse they had weapons of mass destruction"

No sir the reasons we went into Iraq are two and only two and they are clearly stated in the following law Public Law 107-243-oct16-2002 Authorization for use of Military Force against Iraq resolution of 2002. In this law the reasons are this. 1) defend the national security of the United States. 2)enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions reguarding Iraq. In that law are over 20 examples of how Saddam's Iraq continued to either position itself as a threat to U.S. national security or choose to remain in non-compliance to U.N. resolutions. Although some resolutions and repeated threats to our National security had to do with wmds others did not. For Saddam to ignore even one resolution or threaten us in any way after this resolution became law was all The President needed to remove Saddam.

Censorship - alive and well.
I see the censors have knocked out another LD post. Good thing you guys keep other people from reading stuff you don't understand. Like the leftists, you seek to protect others from what you deem unfit for their consumption.

vic
but it does me good I check out the links thanks dudes

Gunny's link
Where in that Post article does it support the claim that:

>CENTCOM has recorded killing over 30 Iranian Revolutionary Guard "advisors" and wounding dozens of others.<

Answer - nowhere, not even close.
Do you guys understand the difference between facts and claims?


If Vic had an actual brain, he would supply the information to back his claim instead of launching into a diatribe complete with the monumentally idiotic "whimpering libtard" characterization.

Doug
As much as I agree with your last post, we actually have had the right to remove Saddam from power from the date of this UN Resolution 687.

http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

Saddam agreed to a 90 CEASE FIRE. The Gulf War never truly ended. Now when Bush Senior and other Coalition partners removed over 2/3 of the 400,000+ strong coalition forces within that 90-day time frame, ole Saddam knew he was free to get back to his business.

Every day since day 91 of the NON-COMPLIANCE of that resolution we have had the right to take out Saddam.

doug
North Korea is a greater threat to national security so why aren't we invading them....NO OIL there!

Ajr
North Korea is a greater threat to national security so why aren't we invading them....NO OIL there!

In fact, we are going through the very same process we went through with Iraq back in 1989 onward.

You guys want multi-lateral, that's what's happening. However, there is a difference this time. I think the USA is finally wising up and will not let itself get USED as the military arm of the UN any longer and then be castigated for doing so. We will let other's get themselves into harms way over another series of MEANINGLESS UN resolutions.

Muslims need a dictator, not a democrat
Of course Mr. Zakaria is absolutely right. We gave them a civil war because we tried to give them a Western-style democracy too quickly, even though their history, their culture and their whole lifestyle isn't oriented around living in peace with their neighbors and settling differences peacefully. The basic concept of democracy is "the free consent of the governed," without which a democracy cannot work. And these Iraqis are not consenting. They come from a tradition of Islamic tribal savagery that is very different from our Founding Fathers who came from the European Enlightenment. Our country is a success because it was originally founded by people of European descent. It would have been a total failure if the exact same U.S. Constitution had been implemented by people of a non-Western culture.

The reason why Turkey is reasonably successful today is because Kemal Ataturk worked hard to move his country from radicalism to democracy. And he had to push his reforms through over considerable fundamentalist opposition. What Iraq needs is an even more forceful strongman who can suppress the radicalism ruthlessly (though not sadistically), and wait patiently for a new generation of young Iraqis to come along who won't remember the bad old days of radicalism. This used to be known as a "benevolent despotism."

Eagle one
Good point and I agree with you. However it is the resolution I quoted that gave the President the approval of congress for this specific action and is quite useful in refuting many arguments such as schrub lied to get us in or there were no wmds or he acted alone as a dictator or well you.

Palmtree's head is in sand

Palmtree: This war is over. The wheels fell off this bus in April, 04-not enough troops, looting of the infrustructure, disbanding the military, firing midlevel Bathists, denial of the reality on the ground by Rumsfeld and Bush--the list goes on and on.

That you still think 21,500 troops is going to make one whit of a difference in the outcome of this war suggests to me that you have your head either in the clouds or the sand.

And of course, when all else fails, there is always liberal bashing. I can't wait to hear how after six years of republican control of the executive and legislative branches of government, the loss in Iraq will somehow be the democrats fault.

Palmtree writes: Friday, February, 02, 2007 12:13 PM
Typical liberal modus operandi!
When the president's surge begins to work in Iraq, (and it will work), the liberals will most assuredly be re-writing history, (again), by telling the world that they were the ones that created the successful outcome in Iraq.

Global warming is another perfect example of the liberal mindset. After convincing the world that global warming is a global killer, the lib's are setting themselves up as Savior's of the planet. Especially, when all of the wild lunacy about global destruction never actually occurs.

Truth and honor means nothing to a liberal because they are blinded by their lust for power.

Dan ---- the biggest threat
"we went there to topple a regime that supported terror attacks on this country."

Why not invade Saudi Arabia? They are the biggest purveyors of terror.

endless diatribes comparing the middle east to nazi germany is a joke because the good ole USA is the largest supporter of the middle east terror regimes. We support them by buying ten's of billions of dollars of their petro products each year.

Where did Saddam get the money for the fourth largest army in the world in 1991?
Where does Iran get their money for nuclear programs?

If the ME is such a threat then we would NOT be addicted to oil.

Time to grow up America, stop the whining and reduce our dependence on ME oil. What about a gas tax to replace some income tax?





Pancho
are you intentionally stupid? That article states:

"For more than a year, U.S. forces in Iraq have secretly detained dozens of suspected Iranian agents, holding them for three to four days at a time."

Dozens = 24 or MORE.

What do you want? These Iranian scumbags to come out with the passports held high, and surrender just like that?

As LadyRebel told you on another thread: "Children should be seen and not heard."

Finish High School and then come back.

A rosey picture...
..........The wheels fell off this bus in April-04...........

How many soldiers does it take to put four wheels back on a bus?

And one does not need to bash a liberal. It speaks volumes to simply watch what a liberal actually says and does.

Doug
I understand the sentiment behind your words. Indeed, the United States is a glorious outcome of a dubious begining when the world powers of the day scorned the very idea or possibility of a United States.

But...your sensationalism failed to persuade me becuase I don't understand how it corresponds to Iraq. To be sure, I have little expertise in history beyond a few courses in college and an occasional read. But even with my limited knowledge, I don't see the parallelism between the World Wars, the Civil War, the Cold War and sending people to the moon--and the Iraq War.

First of all, the United States was not a hegemonic power during the World Wars--the international scene was dominated by a multipolar system. Our (reluctant) involvment in those wars had little to do with spreading principles of freedom and democracy and more to do with preservation for both our own country and our allies with whom we shared key interests.

During the Cold War, we were part of a bi-polar world with the other polar being communists intent on spreading communism and taking over the rest of the world. Hardly key to our vital interests, so we had to win. Thanks to Reagan, we did win. Not because we were only concerned with spreading the spirit of democracy and freedom, but because failure to do so would subjugate our interests to the Communists.

The real issue (I feel)about Iraq is being muddied and obscured by people who insist that this is all about democracy for the Middle East. Perhaps there might be parallelism between Iraq and the other international conflicts mentioned earlier in the fact that it is essential to American interest that Iraq does not fall into the hands of terrorists. If that happens, just think of the horrific probabilities that would follow.
At this point, I could care less if a solution over there secures a democratic Iraq or not. To me, it's not the principle thing. The principle thing is to look the outcome that our actions there or lack of actions will most likely bring in the future.

According to Gunny
secretly detained dozens of suspected Iranian agents, holding them for three to four days at a time = CENTCOM has recorded killing over 30 Iranian Revolutionary Guard "advisors" and wounding dozens of others.

Which is it, secretly detained, or killed 30 and wounded dozens?

Intentionally stupid?

Your call.




Real Enemy: Sunni Inurgency
Baghdad's 'Iran Problem'
by Lionel Beehner
Council on Foreign Relations, January 31, 2007

To suggest Iraq is a puppet state of Iran is misleading, experts say. Iraqi Shiites are driven as much by nationalism as by their sectarian identities, suggests Kaveh L. Afrasiabi, an expert on Iranian foreign policy, in this CFR.org Podcast.

It is further misleading for U.S. officials to blame the “mess” in Iraq on Iran, Kenneth M. Pollack of the Brookings Institution tells CFR.org’s Bernard Gwertzman. “The Bush administration,” Pollack says, “seems to be regarding the Iranians as the source of many, if not all, of Iraq’s problems today. To me, it is dangerously reminiscent of how they talked about the Syrians in 2004 and 2005, when they ridiculously exaggerated Syria’s role in the Sunni insurgency.”

...The real enemy of U.S. interests in Iraq -- argues Ali Ansari, a U.S.-based Iran expert -- is the Sunni insurgency, which enjoys the support of factions within Arab neighbors and U.S. allies like Saudi Arabia. “Shiites do not tend to engage in the sorts of suicide bombings that the Sunnis tend to engage in,” he tells ForeignPolicy.com. “And you certainly don’t see, by and large, Shiites beheading their opponents.”

Gary G. Sick of Columbia University agrees. “[T]he place where Americans are dying most frequently, is not in the Shia territories...and they're not by Shia weapons,” he tells the NewsHour. “They are by Sunni insurgents in al-Anbar province.

JP

Your posts are great. You nail it on the head - right on the money.

Just one problem, however: Arguing with liberals is not only impossible, it's masochistic.

American liberals hate the Judeo Christian God, adopting as their "religion" Marxism, mindless, non-scientific environmentalism, and smug, politically correct socialism. They are also a bunch of effeminate wimps who are a drag on Americanist effort.

Dear God. Spare us their effluvium.

ladynorth
Surely you must be doing a little satire of your own and I was a little slow in coming to the light.

"A dubious begining when the powers of the day scorned the very idea or possiblility of a united states"

"I dont understand how it corresponds to Iraq"

If you are not doing satire please inform me of the college you attended that I might divert my future generations from attending.

Proof of Saudi-Sunni attacks on US
1. Officials say Saudis major provider of finance to Iraqi Sunni insurgents
AP, December 7, 2006

On Nov. 27, a U.S. Air Force F-16 jet crashed while supporting American soldiers fighting in the Sunni insurgent hotbed Anbar province. The U.S. military said it had no information about the cause and Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S. military spokesman, said he would be surprised if the jet was shot down because F-16's have not encountered weapons capable of taking them down in Iraq.

But last week, a spokesman for Sunni insurgents from Saddam's ousted Baath Party claimed that fighters armed with a STRELA MISSILE had shot down the jet.

"We have stockpiles of Strelas and we are going to surprise them (the Americans)," Khudair al-Murshidi, the spokesman, told the AP in Damascus, Syria.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/07/africa/ME_GEN_Iraq_Insurgency_Saudi.php?page=2

-------------------------

2. The Roving Eye
by Pepe Escobar
Asia Times, December 14, 2006

Although the House of Saud's Interior Ministry will deny it, the Iraq Study Group (ISG) had to admit that Sunni Arab guerrillas are being financed by wealthy, private Saudis -- to the tune of tens of millions of dollars -- and, to a lesser extent, Gulf state donors, following instructions of powerful Wahhabi clerics...

The guerrillas' Russian STRELA ANTI-AIRCRAFT MISSILES in Iraq have been paid for by Saudi money (according to Khudair al-Murshidi, a Ba'athist spokesman based in Damascus, "We have stockpiles of Strelas.")

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2006/1214rovingeye.htm

---------------------------

3. Texas Guard flier died in Black Hawk crash
by Sig Christenson
San Antonio Express-News, January 24, 2007

A Texas National Guard member was among a dozen soldiers killed last weekend when the UH-60 Black Hawk he was piloting went down outside Baghdad, Iraq. Military officials in Washington and Baghdad said little about the incident. But the wife of the pilot, Capt. Sean Edward Lyerly, and retired Army Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey said Wednesday night that hostile fire brought down the copter. McCaffrey said Iraq sources told him an expended SHOULDER-FIRED MISSILE LAUNCHER was found after the attack...

The Russian SA-7B "Strela," was introduced in 1966 and flies up to 12,500 feet, said John Pike, director and founder of globalsecurity.org, a military information online site. U.S. countermeasures, he said, usually misdirect the SA-7 before reaching its target.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/07/africa/ME_GEN_Iraq_Insurgency_Saudi.php?page=2

---------------------------

4. US Loses Fourth Copter in Two Weeks
AP, February 2, 2007

A U.S. helicopter went down Friday in Iraq for the fourth time in two weeks, and America's top general acknowledged that its aircraft were increasingly in danger from ground fire. Witnesses and local police said two helicopters were flying together when gunmen opened fire, sending one of the aircraft crashing to the ground, smoke trailing behind it, near Taji, an air base just north of Baghdad. Maj. David Small, a spokesman at U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Fla., confirmed that a helicopter had gone down, but said he had no other details.

...Sunni insurgents are already known to have ANTI-AIRCRAFT WEAPONS weapons as well as ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADES and heavy machine guns.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,123959,00.html

---------------------------

5. Saudi Arabia Interdicts Large Quantities of Weapons at its Borders
by Christopher Boucek
The Jamestown Foundation, November 14, 2006

According to a November 6 report in al-Sharq al-Awsat, Saudi authorities have recently made sizable seizures of large quantities of weapons and explosives at the kingdom's borders, including its border with Iraq.

The seizures included one ROCKET PROPELLED GRENADE, four anti-tank rockets, 46 hand grenades, 900 sticks of dynamite, 900 detonation wires, half a kilo of high explosives, nearly 200 guns and more than 100,000 rounds of ammunition of various calibers. The confiscations were tabulated cumulatively for the past three months, and no information was provided as to where the seizures were made.

The Border Guard Administration also reported a number of other drug and alcohol smuggling interdictions in its annual statistical report and noted that during the last three months, 236 infiltrators and six smugglers were captured on the Iraqi side of the border.

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370202

Doug
That wasn't very nice. :o(

It's a load of crap
This business of claiming the Islamists are unafraid of death, that they look forward to it.

What a load. They do these bombings to murder innocents and instill fear. That's the point of terror. Instill fear. Fear of what?

Can we dispense with this nonsense of the Islamists having no fear of death? With the exception of a very few mentally unstable individuals they are just as afraid of death as any other person.

While we're at it let's knock off this bullcrap about these monsters doing this because they think Allah is instructing them to do so. No rational person spending more than five minutes considering the responsiblities of a God-Centered exsitence will come to the conclusion he is being instructed to destroy innocent human life. These are monsterously insane animals acting in their self interest, seeking power. Period.

Understand that and the culture-wide insanity and one may move forward in devising a plan for solution of the problem.

Let's not delude ourselves any further, heh?

Help Me Here

Except for the rabid war opposition from US liberals and the international MSM, is not the rest of the world comparitavely silent on US involvement in Iraq?

I havnt seen any dramatic calls from the French lately to exit the battle, the British are focused on campaing donations and have moderated their call towithdraw, the Germans are our friends.

Arab nations; except Iran, Hezbollah, Hammas, the Taliban, are silent on our position in Iraq. News from Palestine embarrasses the Arab Community, (see KSA calls for Palestenain meetings in Makkah). Hezbollah Syria and Iran are seen as a serious threat to Lebanon.

The point is, the Middle East moderates are seeing the effects of their political system as a result of the Iraq war, and the picture is not good. Islam is seeing the result of their teachings, and it is not good.

There is a silver lining in the news from Iraq and it is called the effect on moderates in the Middle East. They see the need to change, now they need the opportunity.


AJR
Global Warming Facts---
1. 80% of the earth is uninhabited; it is either water or ice.
2. Large portions of the 20% that is inhabited is undeveloped, has tropical or temperate climates requiring little or no use of fossil fuels for heat, has very few cars in many of the countries, and some of the inhabitants live very primitive lives using almost no fossil fuels.
3. The earth is moving in its orbit around the sun at 66,000 MPH while turning on its axis creating centrifugal forces, the earth also wobbles on its axis--the upper reaches of our atmosphere are being scrubbed off as we move while new atmosphere is being created at the lower levels.
4. At the end of the last ice age 1/3 of North America was completely covered in an ice sheet. That ice sheet has been melting for thousands of years until it has reached where it is today. We have no reason to believe it will not continue to melt for many more years and then start reforming. This is all based on our orbital path around the sun and the earths wobble on its axis, it has nothing to do with automobiles. Global warming started 18,000 years ago ,long before the industrial revolution and the invention of the automobile.
5. Approximately every 100,000 years Earth's climate warms up temporarily. These warm periods, called interglacial periods, appear to last approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years before regressing back to a cold ice age climate. At year 18,000 and counting our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age is much nearer its end than its beginning.
6. If Al Gore could read and understand what he is reading, he may be able to figure out what is actually occurring to our weather. Unfortunately, most Communist Democrats, who have already proven they cannot read or understand our constitution, are now showing they cannot read scientific explanations of natural weather changes.

A few More Facts
Global warming during Earth's current interglacial warm period has greatly altered our environment and the distribution and diversity of all life. For example:

Approximately 15,000 years ago the earth had warmed sufficiently to halt the advance of glaciers, and sea levels worldwide began to rise.

By 8,000 years ago the land bridge across the Bearing Strait was drowned, cutting off the migration of men and animals to North America.

Since the end of the Ice Age, Earth's temperature has risen approximately 16 degrees F and sea levels have risen a total of 300 feet! Forests have returned where once there was only ice.

TR@CE
Your comments regarding Mr. Krauthammer's column weren't really enlightening. If, as you say that our actions were the catalyst or the underlying cause for the sectarian violence then our presence in Iraq couldn't have caused it if, as you say, President Clinton and the Chinese, Germans, French, and Russians had intelligence saying that Saddam was keeping sectarian violence at bay. They knew there would be a problem if they went in. Hence, they didn't go in not because of those problems but to avoid the problems. Yes, our approach was, in retrospect, not very far-sighted and was short on a contingency plan but, at least we've given them a chance to sort through the problems that assault any modern democracy. I'm sure if the Communist regime were to suddenly collapse in China there would be paroxysms of sectarian and ethnic violence (think Tibet) but, in the long-run, I'm sure the many peoples of China would be grateful to be able to live lives free of the specter of a government willing and able to abrogate the freedoms that we Americans take for granted. We have definitely made mistakes through the years and supported regimes which, in hindsight, weren't exemplars of what we in the US love but at least we want for them what we have here. Iraq is a place that was sectarian now as it was before the war. We've now unleashed them to fight their battles that have simmered for the last 40 or 50 years, if not centuries. The genie would have been let out of the bottle in time by somebody, regrettably for the time-being by us and thankfully in the long-run by the USA. The Iraqis will, in time, be a dynamic society like the US . We lived through our Civil War. President Lincoln might've have thought about letting the South's secession go because "we just can't ever reconcile. There are just too many things to reconcile that we'll never be united again." I, for one, am glad he didn't.

Warrior
The mean sea levels are up over 400' from the lowest points we are able to record.

This is actually an extended warm period as we are overdue the cyclic turn to the cold. We are also due for a magnetic pole reversal and that is proceeding apace.

Mankind cannot have effect, regardless the rantings, ravings and wishings of nature-worshipping crackpots.

Paradise Lost
Blaming the United States for the civil war in Iraq "overlooks the plainest of facts," Krauthammer argues. "Iraq is their country. We midwifed their freedom. They chose civil war." Brilliant! Except for the plain fact that when the Bush administration launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom," Dr. Krauthammer and other cheerleaders for Bush War II were gushing over the future of a liberated Iraq that would, of course, choose a constitutional democracy, by which they would live in peace among themselves and their neighbors, "happy ever-aftering" in peace and prosperity. Dr. Krauthammer should tell us upon what, other than wishful thinking, that assumption was based.

Ah, those decadent Iraqis. We gave them freedom and they fell into sin and strife and civil war, even. Gee, who knew? Guess that's never happened in the Middle East before.


Charles is right;
Krauthammer does not want to say it but I will, we should leave Iraq and let them just fight it out amongst themselves, I don't care who wins as long as not one American soldier lose his or her life for nothing. This war was a farce from the beginning and three years later it still is nothing but a rectum after castor oil. No more money no nothing just let them fight it out, this is 'BULLS**T.
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