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Friday, January 05, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Botched
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein. And not just killed, but tortured and mutilated -- doing so often with his own hands and for pleasure. It is quite a distinction to be the pre-eminent monster on the planet. If the death penalty was ever deserved, no one was more richly deserving than Saddam Hussein.

For the Iraqi government to have botched both his trial and execution, therefore, and turned monster into victim, is not just a tragedy, but a crime -- against the new Iraq that Americans are dying for, and against justice itself.

In late 2005, I wrote about the incompetence of the Saddam trial and how it was an opportunity missed. Instead of exposing, elucidating and irrefutably making the case for the crimes of the accused -- as was done at Nuremberg and the Eichmann trial -- the Iraqi government lost control and inadvertently turned it into a stage for Saddam. The trial managed to repair the image of the man the world had last seen as a bedraggled nobody pulled cowering from a filthy hole. Now coiffed and cleaned, he acted the imperious president of Iraq, drowning out in the coverage seen around the world the testimony of his victims.

That was bad enough. Then comes the execution, a rushed, botched, unholy mess that exposed the hopelessly sectarian nature of the Maliki government.

Consider the timing. It was carried out on a religious holiday. We would not ordinarily care about this, except for the fact that it is in contravention of Iraqi law. It was done on the first day of Eid al-Adha as celebrated by Sunnis. The Shiite Eid began the next day, which tells you in whose name the execution was performed.

It was also carried out extra-constitutionally. The constitution requires a death sentence to have the signature of the president and two vice presidents, each representing the three major ethnic groups in the country (Sunni, Shiite and Kurd). That provision is meant to prevent sectarian killings. The president did not sign. Maliki contrived some work-around.

True, Saddam's hanging was just and, in principle, nonsectarian. But the next hanging might not be. Breaking precedent completely undermines the death penalty provision, opening the way to future revenge and otherwise lawless hangings.

Moreover, Maliki's rush to execute short-circuited the judicial process that was at the time considering Saddam's crimes against the Kurds. He was hanged for the killing of 148 men and boys in the Shiite village of Dujail. This was a perfectly good starting point -- a specific incident as a prelude to an inquiry into the larger canvas of his crimes. The trial for his genocidal campaign against the Kurds was just beginning.

That larger canvas will never be painted. The starting point became the endpoint. The only charge for which Saddam was executed was that 1982 killing of Shiites -- interestingly, his response to a failed assassination attempt by Maliki's own Dawa Party.

Maliki ultimately got his revenge, completing Dawa's mission a quarter-century later. However, Saddam will now never be tried for the Kurdish genocide, the decimation of the Marsh Arabs, the multiple war crimes and all the rest.

Finally, there was the motley crew -- handpicked by the government -- that constituted the hanging party. They turned what was an act of national justice into a scene of sectarian vengeance. The world has now seen the smuggled video of the shouting and taunting that turned Saddam into the most dignified figure in the room -- another remarkable achievement in burnishing the image of the most evil man of his time.

Worse was the content of the taunts: ``Moqtada, Moqtada,'' the name of the radical and murderous Shiite extremist whose goons were obviously in the chamber. The world saw Saddam falling through the trap door, executed not in the name of a new and democratic Iraq, but in the name of Sadr, whose death squads have learned much from Saddam.

The whole sorry affair illustrates not just incompetence but the ingrained intolerance and sectarianism of the Maliki government. It stands for Shiite unity and Shiite dominance above all else.

We should not be surging American troops in defense of such a government. This governing coalition -- Maliki's Dawa, Hakim's SCIRI and Sadr's Mahdi Army -- seems intent on crushing the Sunnis at all costs. Maliki should be made to know that if he insists on having this sectarian war, he can well have it without us.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Yeah, right Charlie.
Just remember this though. The monster is dead. Maliky and the Shia hated his guts, and with good reason.


As far as I am concerned they should have fed Saddam into a chipper the way one of his freakish sons liked to do to his victims. Sunnis committed genocide against the majotity of the people of Iraq, Shia and Kurds.


Their response here was a little messy. So what? The Sunni and the Arab street will be angry with us? You mean they will hate us even more than the do now? Hey, as far as I'm concerned they can sue me. Or, go pound sand.

So now Krauthammer is advocating the same thing "Baby Huwey" Murtha recommended? Get our guys out. Where was it that fat, criminoid moron wanted to send them? Okinawa?


Or is Charles suggesting that we let the Maliky government be destroyed? What about all of the Iraqis with the purple thumbs? Hey! Maybe I'm just being silly. After all, I don't owe those people a thing. They're used to being slaughtered anyway, right?


It does occur to me that when the Sunnis, the Muktar militia, the Syrians and Iranians take control of Iraq, we will be a lot closer to experiencing the fate they tell us every day that they intend for us.


But don't panic Charlie. Now is the time to keep your head.

Charlie isn't panicking, Skip --
He's trying to help the Neocons weasel out of accountability for the grand strategic blunder of a war that they conceived, planned and mustered our blood and treasure for. The opening gambit was played by Frum, Perle, et al, who laid down the argumentative line that their brilliant design had been bungled in execution by the incompetents at the White House and the Defense Department. Rumsfeld was sacrificed on the basis of that belief, and in order to advance that point of view. Charlie's line is simply the endgame of the Neocons -- the final washing of hands to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the failure of their hubristic schemes. It's the perfect excuse: "The Iraqis couldn't handle the gift we gave them." And of course the follow up, express or implied, is: "It's not *our* fault that the Middle East has been destabilized, America has lost clout and credibility, our liberties have been eroded, our economy has been drained and our young men have been squandered -- blame it on the Iraqis."

Oh really?

My prose will continue
to be hard and unsmiling, regarding Saddam.

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/12/rope.html

But to have Krauthammer inform me -- for I will not be watching the video -- that Saddam was the most dignified person in the room, is very disturbing indeed. The excuse is that Iraq is not a society that has groomed *professional* executioners. Executioners in Iraq would do it as an avocation, more than as a vocation. That particular labor pool would offer up pretty much only scum.

For the job to have been done right, people who were not emotionally involved would have been recruited. Hmm. Americans? No thanks.

As for the greater justice of a longer and more complete trial, in which so many more of Saddam's crimes would have been listed -- not necessary. The History Channel can cover that, and I'm sure we can get it translated.

Botched? How could it be otherwise. But completed, and that has to count for something.

J
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/

I agree Jack H, he's dead and that's
what counts. Does everyone want to have put him on trial for EACH and EVERY death he caused? That may have taken a LOOOONNNNGGG LOOONNNGG time.

And to be honest, everyone KNEW he was going to be executed as soon as he was pulled out of his hidey hole.

But hangings are not like golf, no mulligins.


Dignified Saddam?
While I initially would have preferred an execution for Saddam patterned after that of Mussolini (including the aftermath), I have to agree with Krauthammer. As a bunch of verbally-identifiable riff-raff yammered like a pack of yapping dogs, Saddam stood erect and soberly noted, "This is what you call manhood?" (I tried to check to see if memory serves, but results tended to be similar to Letterman's Top 10 lists.)

This rush to judgement made it appear that if the execution were not performed at once, Saddam might somehow have escaped justice a la OJ Simpson.

What should have been one of the most dramatic and justifiable acts of the new century, it was reduced to yet another video on YouTube.

Mr Krauthammer has written one of those few columns which have changed my view of an issue. This is notable as those whose views never change seem somehow incapable of imagining themselves wrong in *any* of their views, much like your garden-variety liberal.

I find it very hard...
...to critisize individuals who,for thirty years,have watched Saddam and his henchman torture,rape,and brutalize their relatives of all ages.I remember a story of a former government official who defected to the West and was living in America.Many months after defecting,he recieved a video tape in the mail.The tape showed all the female members of his family being raped and tortured,including children and old folks.Would someone please try to explain to this man the importance of decorum in the execution of Saddam.I can't.

A Neo-Con has a moment of clarity.
Krauthammer is usually associated with the now-disgraced Neo-Cons. I can still watch him on Brit Hume at 6:00 p.m. eastern, but simply can't take Fred Barnes' sycophantic defense of Bush anymore.

It is somewhat refreshing to read where Krauthammer has finally admitted that our support of a process has yielded a government elected by Iraqis which is hopelessly riddled with intolerance and sectarianism.

Gone are the naive predictions of Iraqis embracing the tolerance and respect for dissent that undergird a democracy.

I agree with Krauthammer here, especially last paragraph in which he admonishes us not to support a surge of American troops to defend the Maliki government.

Generals Casey and Abizaid resigned, or asked to be replaced, partially as a result of disagreeing with Bush on the troop surge issue.

But Bush's legacy is on the line now. History awaits the outcome in Iraq.

Therefore, to avoid a devastating indictment from history regarding the debacle engulfing Iraq, this president is throwing the dice, in a last-gasp effort to salvage his legacy.

That is what this is all about.

Bush has always been convinced of the rectitude of his decision regarding Iraq, and on the issue of Islam's compatibility with democracy. He is a true believer, and on this issue, a zealot.

Therefore, the fact that events there contradict or invalidate his belief-system just means he will push harder. That's all.

The troop surge is on.



In context, Charles is dead-on
In isolation of all else, the poor handling of Saddam's execution could be seen as something we must stomach, and move on. But Charles gives us the context - a Shiite government hell-bent on repaying the Sunnis for the long years of suffering they endured.

Shiite death squads have operated out of government ministries since before the first purple-finger election. Somebody had to explain to Malaki that this execution was likely the last best chance he had to show the Sunnis and the world that he, Malaki, was the man to lead the path to a stable government that protects the right to life and liberty (or at least, life - let's start there.)

Two reasons that didn't happen:

1. Malaki could never be the right man for the job. His cooperation with al-Sadr, portrayed by American media as begrudging, is anything but. He's a thug, hand-in-glove with Don Moqtada and more than happy to sanction daily revenge killings.

Yes, Iraqis voted for him. Would they do it again now? Should we be surprised as post-election buyers remorse? Republicans should be least surprised of all.

2. Our "leadership" in the region is ham-fisted. A proper distaste for the failures of carrot-no-stick Democrat-style diplomacy, leads this administration to an equally foolish stick-no-carrot version. Because every Bush official on the ground in Iraq thinks alike, no one there saw that American control of the execution would have been a net plus.

All we've heard about how dangerous it would be to get our fingerprints on it, was based on Islamo stereotypes, not sound judgment. Even the most aggrieved party to an execution finds himself quieted in the face of dignified proceedings.

When one has killed with zeal, or longed to do so, seeing it done with aplomb is a beneficial shock to the system. It becomes the moment of civility longed for in the mind of any human beseiged in a killing cycle (yes, these are still humans - hard to remember I know.) It becomes the opening to easing tensions.

The execution was that kind of opportunity. But no one Bush has placed on the ground in Iraq had the wisdom to see it.

Krauthammer's point
Krauthammer's point is that Saddam got off too easy. He understands how humiliating it is to have dozens of witnesses testify to a criminal's atrocities.

Krauthammer wanted Saddam to have to sit thru this humiliating process, get All of his genocidal crimes proven and on the record, and then a speedy execution.

Krauthammer longs for perfection in an imperfect world. He doesn't want the official record of history to read that Saddam was a petty tyrant who was hanged for the murder of 148 people. He wants Saddam to be remembered as one of the most vicious dictators and mass murderers in history; a man who looted and plundered his own people and who was hung for the murder of hundreds of thousands.

I'm glad Saddam is dead. I hope this will reduce the violence perpetrated by his supporters.


Botched?
Saddam is dead isn't he? To say his execution was "botched" is like saying the junkyard isn't neat enough.

jarub
"Generals Casey and Abizaid resigned, or asked to be replaced, partially as a result of disagreeing with Bush on the troop surge issue".

Does this mean these two men are incompitent for carrying out the non winning tactics used now? Is the failed policy their policy, rummy's, bush's?

No one knows for sure ,except to say whatever policy has to be agreed upon by Bush. I agree with the surge only if we take the gloves off. More specifically if we send a brigade or two into anbar to smash! some sunni but, and send 4 brigades into b-dad to smash! sadr.

We should not consult the iraqi's at all really, they will just rat us out, and our plan. This will send a message to maliki, Iran, the sunni, and syria.

As for the hanging...who cares, are we now willing to say out loud that all these arabs, muslims are a bunch of savages to their core. Even if they are the educated of the country, which is a relative term, they will still saw your head off and dance in the streets.

JC
Our ham fisted handling of muslims is wrong, we should be absolutely crushing them into submission.

That does not work with civilized peoples with a sense of honor, character and pride; but it works like a charm with muslims!

The surge will be useless if we do not take the gloves off!!

Ottozeit
You read it here first, from me.

Thiry years from now the US invasion of Iraq will be seen as the turning point in a worldwide war of terrorism that has been going on since the sixties.

Iraq will eventually be straightened out and run by decent Iraqis, and other peoples, especially in the middle east, will see this and say 'Yeah, me too. We want our share of self determination just like Iraq.'

We've already seen it in fits and starts in places like Egypt, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine, and Iran.

The notion that Iraq would change effortlessly from 30 years of despotism to a constitutional republic with no power struggle and no violence is and always was unrealistic. And the left in this country has only contributed to the difficulties and the violence by perpetuating their endless and uninformed criticism of the war and the administration solely for the purpose of regaining their political power at home.

The conduct of the NYT and other MSM outlets, as well as the leakers inside the administration (probably holdovers from Clinton) is nothing short of treasonous. These people belong on trial for the manner in which they have behaved with our troops in the line of fire. They have lent aid and comfort to the enemy and given them direct assistance by informing them of how the administration was tracking them.

The only reason I don't add that they should be ashamed of themselves is because they have demonstrated they have no shame.

But no perfect war has ever been fought. We will prevail in Iraq because we have to. And just as we can now look back today and see that our betrayal of the South Vietnamese led to the genocide of more than 2 million Cambodians, Laotians,and Vietnamese, and that 30 years later those three countries remain mired in poverty, so thirty years from now we will look back on Iraq and be relieved we had a Commander-In-Chief who had the moral courage to do the right thing and did not let the mistakes and hindrances of this war prevent him from finishing the job.

What nonsense.
As a kid,I remember seeing Musalini and his mistress hanging from a lamppost and the people dancing in the streets.The Italians are still dancing.Do you think for one minute they regret having no record of Il Duce's crimes recorded in some court documents? Was it pre-ordained that Italy could not have a democracy becaused they offed the dictator and his mistress in such a way? Who can seriously make that argument?

Hitler commited suicide.Do we have no record of his crimes because he never had a trial?Give me a break!

Good riddence to Saddam,and the navel gazers be damned!

He's right
Saddam's end was botched, because his deeds were not put in our faces enough, meaning that they are now too easily (conveniently) forgotten. It made the revisionists' jobs far too easy.

I wouldn't mind seeing short surge of air power to flatten Sadr city and its thug-in-chief. We won't because civilians would be killed. (Side note: Civilians will continue to harbor terrorists as long as that's safer than the alternative. That is the sad choice of the regular people in the middle east)

Maliki is the wrong guy, and he himself knows it. Now that he's admitted he won't run again and wishes he were out of there, he's completely powerless to do anything constructive. He should step down--I hope we're pressuring him to do so, for the Iraqi people's sake. Otherwise, I think Mr. Krauthammer is saying, we must consider whether we are casting our pearls before swine.


11h
Agreed, some smashing is in order. But let's hit the animals, and leave the people alive to govern themselves. Big-stick diplomacy is where you plan to kill everyone who is "part of the problem," make that plan clear in no uncertain terms, then give all parties one very small chance (say, one month) to become part of the solution.

In this case, the starting point is actually not the Sunnis, but the Shiites. Think WWII. Germany hadn't directly attacked us, but we declared war on them along with Japan. We had to be clear, not just to the world but to ourselves, that in the fight against tyranny, we were as they say in poker, "all in."

We must flex our might in a way that clarifies we are against ALL that destabilizes Iraq, not just one particular sect. A lasting peace must be the only side we take.

Many say "crush the Sunni Triangle first, then the Mahdi Army in the South." Understandable, since the Triangle is where Americans are most attacked, but short-sighted.

Crushing Moqtada Corleone FIRST serves two purposes. It puts the Shiites in check, and convinces the Sunnis that we're not out to destroy them. Sunnis genuinely don't get that yet, because, by letting the Shiite death squads run rampant in their Iraqi police uniforms, we've done little to convince them.


Troop pullout
“Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein.”

Except the last three American presidents are responsible for far more deaths of course.

But I have to admit Krauthammer has finally written a fairly balanced blog this time, and his closing paragraph is excellent: “We should not be surging American troops in defense of such a government. This governing coalition -- Maliki's Dawa, Hakim's SCIRI and Sadr's Mahdi Army -- seems intent on crushing the Sunnis at all costs. Maliki should be made to know that if he insists on having this sectarian war, he can well have it without us.”

Alright! Bring our boys back home now!

Peace

Refreshing
This thread seems to have a lot of voices debating, honestly debating, in a very civilized way. This is lovely to see; too many of the Comments sections lately have had the usual screamers and irrational dorkwads going off on mindless tangents. Would that all the columns and their comments could be this way...

JC
"Germany hadn't directly attacked us, but we declared war on them along with Japan."

You don't know what you're talking about. Germany declared war on us.

Usually, I
can't find anything to disagree about with Krauthammer, and I agree that the hanging was "botched". But, so what? The wicked witch is dead and I'm not going to wring my hands about the way it was carried out. If we don't know by now the kind of people we're dealing with, then we should just give up and go home - which is what the libs and the MSM have wanted all along.

The New York Times, Ted Kennedy, Dick Durbin, and others of their ilk have been waiting since the morning of 9/12 to put a check in the loss column for this Administration. War, any war, is a ruthless venture and if we're not willing to blow up Mosques, take out revered heads of militias like Moqtada al Sadr, and level cities that are crawling with insurgents, then we deserve to lose.

And the Democrats and al-Qaeda can gleefully claim, "We won!"

The First Mistake with Saddam
The first mistake made in our handling of Saddam Hussein was in pulling him out of that rat hole...without dropping a hand grenade down the hole first.

Rubbish
We will take our ball and go home. That will ensure our exemption from all future terrorist attacks. We think like children or better yet politicians (that is one level below children). The Nurnberg Trials were a failure--Goring robbed the hangman by taking surreptitiously a cyanide capsule. The Germans were only tried for killing Jews; what about the gypsies, Russians, Poles, and English. We failed to prosecute long enough. Saddam is as dead as he is going to get, he was the leader-the buck stops at his desk, if there were 150 or 150,000 people killed by his regime, he was responsible. Now he is dead. Good, all that is left is to kill all the other impediments to Iraqi freedom.

Gregdn
True, Germany declared first, but a trifling semantic at best.

When Japan attacked, FDR understood that the three powers were aligned, and any declaration of war on one was on all three.

Politically, it looked better if he waited for Germany's declaration before giving his own. The nation was still reeling from the reality of suddenly having to fight one overseas war. It would go down easier if the second front looked like a response to a nation declaring war on us.

Furthermore, in effect, did Hitler's declaration of war mean anything? With two fronts burning, was HE going to send fleets off to a third front an ocean away?

Never mind the timing of declarations. It was the US who first WENT to war with Germany, and for the reasons I gave previously.

Charles, you may be wrong
"Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein...".

Last I checked, former Pakistan Army-chief-of-staff Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg is still alive; in 1971, then Col. Beg was in Comilla (now in Bangladesh) as part of the nearly 100,000 Pakistani military (mostly Punjabi but some mohajirs including Beg) contingent tasked to implement "Operation Searchlight". Between 95,000 (according to an incomplete inquiry done by India in 1972) and 230,000 (according to Bangladesh) were murdered in Comilla District--Beg was known to have derived pleasure from torture of Bengali prisoners (he was the second-in-command in that district). Add to that, another 50-100,000 whom he ordered butchered in post-1971 Pakistan from 1977-1988 and you have a total between 145,000 and 330,000!

Of course, the number killed by some despots who died before 2006 makes even Saddam and Beg pale:
(1) Hitler, 12-30 million
(2) Stalin 27-40 million
(3) Mao 40-80 million
(4) Yahya Khan 1.3-3.5 million (includes Beg's figures)
(5) Pol Pot 2 million

Fergus
It's not often that I agree with Fergus, though I respect him for his posts. This is refreshing. I for one don't favor a cut and run strategy in any sense. What I want is some accountability. Some acknowledgement that we made some monumental errors. Not from Krauthammer or any of the pundits, I want to see some humility from those directly responsible. To hear the words, "We made mistakes, and we recognize that. Now we will attempt to fix them. we're not satisfied with dressing up old tactics to look new and we won't feed you any ridiculous slogans, we'll attempt to do the job we committed to." The utter lack of humility in the face of one's own incompetence is what saddens me.

Saddam trial and hanging
The trial and hanging may have been done poorly, but then, Charles, why drag it on and on with more trials? You can only hang the guy once, so get it over with.

JC
Check that, Sadr first is a go. Both sides need to know we do not have a dog in the fight other than if you f*ck with us we will annihilate you! I also think diplomatically this should be handled in the press. Not necessarily Bush, but Condi should be on Al jezeera weekly stating how barbaric this tribal existence is etc...Does the muslim world WANT to be mired in ignorance for ever etc.. It is what is missing from our arsenal so far.

Our state dept cant seem to see the difference between australia, and somalia. We didnt overthrow oregon!! for cryin out loud, these people(muslims) are nuts.

Makes me wonder how long these Government owned stations would keep airing that kind of diplomatic talk. Bush also could do more by pointing out the flaws of arabia, egypt, syria, etc..If the masses (and especially the UN), hear the words I believe they will choose self determination.

It would also let the US citizens know just how unwilling the most moderate regimes are to stopping the violence towards the west, and that they are ALL in fact(muslims/islam), against us.

11h

Krauthammer
I agree Saddam got off to easily---however, it was important to get rid of him as soon as possible. Every day Saddam was still alive, the doubts could form:

Was some guard of his going to end up being some kind of turncoat who will let him go?

Despite all the rhetoric about change, was the new government in bed with the old?

Were the Sunnis going to demand Saddam's release as terms of working with the new government?

The doubts die with Saddam, hopefully allowing more trust in the new government.

empyrius
....“Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein.”

Except the last three American presidents are responsible for far more deaths of course.....


Thank you for reminding us once again of the utter moral bankruptcy and complete lack of perspective by the Left, as well as how dangerous you people truly are.

Fergus
and then there are the empyrii.

jc
Really, now.

You posted, "Malaki could never be the right man for the job." and "Yes, Iraqis voted for him."

Shouldn't you reserve you criticisms for the Iraqis, then?

Your attempt to rewrite history about WW II (that gregdn corrected you on) revealed your agenda. It's all about how "evil" the USA is, right?

So you'd go after sunnis, too? But, gee, jc, they didn't attack the USA. Isn't that the mantra?

You posted, "no one there saw that American control of the execution would have been a net plus." How so? Would all muslims suddenly love us because WE killed Hussein? He was tried and sentenced by an Iraqi court. Again, if you have a problem with that, criticize the Iraqis, not the USA. The execution should have been televised in HiDef, "sic semper tyrannis" on the crawl.

And what's your bottlom line on all this? All you posted was criticism without solution. Typical of leftists, anything Bush does or doesn't do is wrong. Thanks for the help, Mr. American.

Ace in the hole
If there is really such a thing as a neocon and it is not just a nasty word made up by the left then what do you call someone that has been conservative most of their lives? From what I understand about the definition of neocon, it is a liberal who finally realized their mistakes and how really illogical their thinking was. In other words they learned how to think and use common sense.

I remain amazed that the left still give Saddam and that Baathist moral equivalency to any of our Presidents. I am still amazed that they just don't get it concerning the enemy we now face. It is exactly the liberalness, especially as promoted by leaders on the left, in our society that the Islamists so despise about this country. Meanwhile Islamists hate Bush, Rumsfeld, and the like for being willing to finally stand up to them instead of running for away.

We now have a choice. We had a similar choice in Vietnam but failed. Yet anyone thinking that this war, Iraq being but a single theater, is Vietnam lives in true fantasy land. Our choice is being truly engaging and deciding to win all phases of this war on Islamofascism or the dishonor of tucking our tails and waiting for them to come here. We appear to be choosing dishonor; we will get war and destruction.

I for one would have voted for a grenade going down the hole while Saddam was still in it. We then would have not had to worry about how the Iraq people ran the trial or how his execution took place. A whole bunch of so called human rights activists would not have had the media stage for almost two years. The American progressives would not be jumping up and down defending Saddam and comparing him to American leaders or pretending they know best how to fight a war.

Welcome to reality, Robspierre
Laws of unintended consequences are hellish. Krauthammer is arguing for rule of law, but that was in the rearview mirror the day we decided to invade without direct provocation. Whatever will arise in Iraq can't be controlled from the outside, and stability will take hold only once the crucible is finished burning what is burnable.

Accountability
Dunkel writes that he for one would like some accountability. He'd basically like those "directly responsible" to show some humility and tell us what total failures he believes they are. Apparently then he will be able to invest in their plan to fix things.

I'd like to see some accountability too,but not just from the Bush administration. I'd like to see the traitors who leaked valuable information to the Times come forward and admit their wrong doing and I like to see them tried for their crimes. I'd like to see the America hating left held accountable for their role in tying the hands of our military for getting things under control over there. Goodness knows we can't use too much force, why, what would the world THINK of us??? (They think we're "paper tigers" that's what they think) I'd like to see some accountability from defeatists who decide that all is a lost cause in the middle of the fight. Look at any war in American history and there are battles where the enemy won, but ultimately lost the war. Do we call football games at halftime, declare the players incapable of playing the game and ask the coach to resign in defeat? Why is it that there is only the call for accountability from the administration while the saboteurs aren't held accountable?

BipsyQueen
True. There's exceptions to every rule... and my post was made before I saw that one, but I elected to remain silent, to further to collegiality

Right on Charles
You have it exactly right. Chalk the execution of Saddam up as yet another abysmal failure of the Bush war in Iraq.

I don't blame it all on this administration. Given what I read in the MSM they and our military worked hard up to the last minute to try to make sure the execution was not botched. But, sigh, as in everything they seem to do the administration failed.

Thank heavens we have only two more years of this bungling fool in the white house, and counting.

Hey dunkel,
Eisenhower and the US FDR made huge mistakes in WWII but you never heard until after because IT HAMPERS AND DEFEATS THE WAR EFFORT.

The US media is doing nothing but second guessing and carping, blaming, and yes, UNDERMINING our war efforts. The never ending stream is crippling our country. I believe inb freedom of the press, but if the media conglomerates and those who run them have more power to shape opinion in america by the way they portrat events, I think they need to be put down! Bush has only two more years, I think a huge campaign during his speeches concerning this, would do much to make the media decide if they are with us, or with islam.

11h

Their were plenty of peacniks in 1940 but they had the good sense to put country first. Is it not assumed Bush, and every human makes mistakes. Does Bush or I, or you, have to fall on the sword of self flagellation for all to see?

Should have kept office
After seeing what the people of Iraq are like, I feel they should have said "we are sorry for our mistake" and restored him to office.

At first I feel for the hype that got us into this war, but now I feel that Saddam was the man of the moment and knew how to handle his country. He was a ruthless killer, but he kept his population in line and at the same time countered Iran.

David
I agree in principle (as an american living in america), but if I were say, KURDIH! or SHIITE, I might not agree.

Besides is it more american to choose stability above all else? Sounds so realist, and cruel. I happen to think many on the left are right about the US dancing with the OIL devil all these years. The misery we helped to extend to hundreds of millions so we could have our cheap power. The right want to say it is not our fault how the oil monsters treat their people; except of course when it comes to how horrible sadaam was to his, er.. now that there is now WMD excuse to push to the front. We now push the humanitarion.


But then again I want a 2 million man army, go in to darfur, sudan, iran, N. Korea etc..

Everyone has a legitimate point of view, it is just expressing it in context that gets the left/right in trouble.

11h

11h

wildflowers
Where did I mention anything about "total failures"? I certainly don't advocate the 'we can't use too much force' srategy. I'm not calling the game at halftime. No rational people I know want to completely pull out of Iraq. We can argue about what is treasonous and 'America hating' but nothing will come of it because of the 'I'm right so I'll yell louder than you and not listen to your response'. Painting the 'left' as 'treasonous' and 'America hating' is done with too broad a brush. If the only counterpoint is 'you are all traitors', it shows no capacity for reason. Sure there are some who harbor ill will toward the USA within this country, but the sweeping generalization doesn't point any of them out. Making specific references is wonderful, and I have seen some attempts made along these lines, but soon enough, the rallying cry of 'all lefties are moonbats and commies' comes back to the forefront. Some try to rise above (Fergus) and they get dragged back down.

david
I find your point about context to be insightful. Thanks.

11hotel
Let us look at the situation rationally. We desire Mid East oil. There is nothing wrong with that. We desire it as cheap as possible to keep our economy running. Now, unlike the people that deny there humanity and think they are saints, I feel it our governments responsibility to provide this substrate to our economy in the best manner possible. Thus if it takes a ruthless dictator to keep his brain dead people in line to get the substance, to much the better. It those people can't keep pace with our country then we have an obligation to change their government if we are powerful enough. There are no morals in politics and business. Only the concept of getting the job done.

11h
My main problem seems to be attributing a compliment to the wrong source. Sorry 11h.

David
I find your position, if you are serious and not a satirist like LoyalDemocrat, repulsive.

The notion that our foreign policy should be to condone, or even tolerate, ruthless dictators as long as they "keep their population in line" and we get the oil we want to be the most selfish, shallow, and inhumane position imaginable.

To the contrary of your position as stated, we should question why we did nothing about the inhumanity of Saddam until after we began to fear for our own safety in our own homeland.

Liberals claim to have a monopoly on compassion (I don't know if you are liberal, conservative, or something between), but the more I hear of how they recommend compassion should be practiced the more I become convinced that what they call compassion is actually selfishness to the excusion of even common decency.

Do you really think the majority of Iraqis are ruthless, violent warlords intent on taking over as dictator for Saddam? Or could it be that the majority of Iraqis are basically decent people who live in fear of such men? And if the latter is the case, is it not morally imperative that we give them a chance for a nation that respects and honors decency and humanity?

Well written but wrong :-)
I disagree with Mr. Krauthammer, but his article is extremely well written, as always. He always presents his arguments clearly, forcefully and with care.


As for jc:

> When Japan attacked, FDR understood that the three powers were aligned, and any declaration of war on one was on all three. <

Yes, FDR felt that way, and had for some time in fact [which is why he allowed Pearl Harbor]. But *not* the American people. The sentiment was, "Japan attacked us, not Germany". FDR would have loved the U.S. to declare war on Germany, but didn't ask Congress because he knew they wouldn't do it.

Besides, his socialist policies hadn't brought America out of the depression -- rather they likely deepened and lengthened it -- and war would solve that as well. 19% unemployment was not a recipe for re-election, while becoming involved in the largest war in history virtually guaranteed it.

Dave you are wrong!
Because business and government behave this way is EXACTLY the problem. It is one of the only things wrong with our system.

I would contend that the US has actually made the world way better for hundreds of millions, as well as any off shoot of the west, english colonies/common law practising governments.

That however does not cover the miserable suffering we have let go on so we could get oil cheap. After all it is not norway we are getting our oil from, and our government knows exactly the circumstances of the populations under these backwards madmen we deal with.

Each case may differ in its extreme, and what we could possibly do to help the plight of these people. Something just tell s me that we could have done much more to change the face of egypt and arabian societies, as examples, than to just supply them with enough weapons to suppress their populations to keep our oil running and themselve in power.

I havent even gotten in to the banana wars or sugarcane wars (because I know of them, but not enough to argue a case).

Morals apply to business government individuals, and religions for that matter equally. I do not think our country can hide behind PROSPERITY and economic dominence of the world as a sheild.

I do understand the kill one in the public square, so later you do not have to kill a thousand arguement, but it does not apply, and how much poorer america would be today IF ONLY we had acted differently in our dealings with said backwards countries.

11h

Dave
just to add; looking at the situation rationally does not mean looking at it in the best interests of business, or the US.

11h

11h
I couldn't agree more.

raidencraig
You're simply a moron.

Fiddling Nero
tbmbuzz

‘The left?’ The liberals are just as greedy war-mongerers as the right-wingers in the U.S.A; I affiliate myself with neither of your corporate sponsored political organizations!

Yes, ‘neocons’ are simply the progeny of Scoop Jackson, people who corrupted Trotsky, and want to make the New World Order in the image of a Golden Calf with ‘in God We Trust’ engraved upon it. One can either serve God or Mammon; you cannot have both. Woe unto thee slaves of Wall Street!

empyrii—very good. B/c indeed ye shall be consumed by the flames of the eternally burning oil fields of the Middle East!

Is ‘progressive’ believing the earth to be a few billion years older than 6 thousand years?

Ahh yes David, the old ‘might makes right’ law of the jungle . . .

how Saxonish.

For all of the dictators the U.S. has propped up in the last century I am sure ‘our’ body count far surpasses Hitler, Stalin, or Mao; South America, Central America, Asia, Africa, Pacific Islands, the Middle East . . ., we hath left no continent untouched by ‘our’ bloody fingerprints; after all we are the only nation to have killed hundreds of thousands in two separate single days (mainly civilians) and the intended effect of countless more generations hence.

Look up people and do not confine yourself with the trite labels of ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative,’ ‘anti-choice’ or ‘pro-personal sovereignty,’ ‘military man’ or ‘human being.’ After all, even Napoleon, Teddy Roosevelt, Andrew Jackson, and Jeffrey Dahmer were made in the image of God, but it didn’t stop them from being mass-murderers! So, who is a monster and who is a saint can be relative questions, indeed there are canonized Saints who also condoned mass-murder.

But the Antichrist will not be the Pope, he will be a Jewish-American president!

Peace

You messed up on your review;
---"Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein."--- HITLER AND STALIN AND POL POT to name three! ---"The world has now seen the smuggled video of the shouting and taunting"---The cell phone video even though not clear showed ALL "SHOUTING AND TAUNTING" from the crowd and not the executioners. You should have reviewed the cell phone video first before reporting the ARAB PROPAGANDA MEDIA INFORMATION. Your title "BOTCHED" reflects the connotation that hanging was inappropriate. THE MASS MURDER TRIAL OF THE KURDS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE BEFORE THE EXECUTION OF THIS TYRANT AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN TORTUOUS LIKE THAT OF HIS VICTIMS.

Closet Marxists - 11h in particular
TH is a strange place to find such a concentration of closet Marxists.

11h wrote: "That however does not cover the miserable suffering we have let go on so we could get oil cheap. After all it is not norway we are getting our oil from, and our government knows exactly the circumstances of the populations under these backwards madmen we deal with."

A) You do understand, don't you, that oil-drilling is generally the work of multinational corporate entities, not of the US government? So, how much control do you suppose "we" (whoever "we" is in your mind) have over how THEY do business? Keeping the US Constitution in mind, how much control SHOULD the US government have?

B) Is it, in your mind, the responsibility of the US government to force all nations on the face of the earth to behave according to your behavioral standard?

B) 1) What makes it the US government's RESPONSIBILITY to force others to live by a particular set of standards?

B) 2) Whose standards should we use? George W Bush's? Maybe Karl Marx's? Josef Stalin's? The guidelines proposed by the Humanist Manifesto? The collective wisdom of the ACLU, the Sierra Club, Amnesty International, the Rainbow Coalition, and Human Rights Watch? YOURS?????

The point is, the answers to these questions will illustrate that your vision of the perfect world implies a central, moral oligarchy of secular philosophers guiding a central, universal government, enforcing a single quasi-religious hierarchy of "human rights" on everybody regardless of their willingness.

In effect, you're calling for a worldwide dictatorship of the proletariate, along the lines demanded by post-Soviet ex-Marxists. You have a right to your opinions, sure. But forgive me for pointing out the totalitarianism that must necessarily result if your ideas are followed, and how foreign those ideas are to the American ideal.

From my traditional, American, free-market libertarianism, I ask a simple question: name a single nation that is, economically speaking, worse off by allowing western drilling experts to extract oil from beneath their barren sands than they were before.

Since there isn't one, I fail to see even the slightest justification for vast social changes arising from the fact that western engineers are helping middle eastern government to drill oil. So, admit it: you're just using any handy excuse to launch into a neo-Marxist diatribe and insist that the US become your idealized socialist state.

Empyrius
makes loyal democrat seem the soul of reason and restraint. Thank you for achieving what seemed impossible.

Imperial Ambitions

To all the Americans who support the notions of the current government ( and its obviously incedious Zionist-empowering murderous policies ), its best that you advise your current government to leave the mideast to its people and let them solve its problems as they see fit. As a Saudi student studying here in my final year in the U.S, I can honestly say that I bare no ill will towards the Americans as a people, your government on the otherhand I loathe,greatly,as do all of my fellow compatriots,and ofcourse you would say the same of our government,which makes no difference to me at all. The point of my matter is that you brought yourselves into a region that was,long before your observing the fact, was beset with ethnic and religious problems dating back 1400, having said that, you invaded Iraq,without the right to do so, and now that you've caused enough mayhem and destruction, its best you leave and let us do the cleaning up. Your misdeeds have put in power in Iraq a deviant Safavid like Shia government that loathes all that is Sunni and Arab, members of the " Hizb Ad'Dawa " of which current President and in reality Ethnic Persian Jawad Kamli-Zadeh ( who is known to the world after he changed his name and Identity to sound more Arab-like ) is none other than Nouri Al-Malki ( which is a Sunni tribal name ). And his national security advisor Karim Shahpouri ( who is now Muwaffaq Al-Rubaei ) again the name of a Sunni tribe, and lets not forget ex minister of the interior, Baqer Solagh Khosroui, an ethnic Persian and member of Sciri who is known for his hatred of all that is Sunni and Arab and has been implicated in the deeds of the notorious interior ministry forces ( who are comprised of all-shia units ). These filthy Safavids are fulfilling the depraved and evil persians dream of a greater persian empire, encompassing all the mideast and spreading their vile and heretical shia faith that is built on adultery and plunder, and if you would just leave, we would deal with it ourselves, these animals are talking of taking the two great mosques in Saudi Arbabia from the devil worshippers, who happen to be the house of Saud, think of the royal family what you will, but I am thinking about my land and my view is the peoples view. And then we have Ralph Peters, writing for the U.S Armed Forces on his view of a redrawn mideast, if that isnt an Imperialistic take on the situation and a modern manifestation of the white mans guilt at work, that the barbarians of the mideast cant govern themselves so we will for ourselves, do us all a favor America, govern your OWN borders, follow the ideals of your forefathers and let us slaughter each other as we see fit. We are battling against the armies of heresy in Iraq and Iran and Lebanon and we will NOT allow them to destroy our land.

safavid_killer
So, when are you guys going to get the job done?
Sounds like a good idea to me. Let our soldiers go home and you can get your armies up and running to take care of things, get it all straightened out.

So, far we haven't seen any other middle eastern country lend a hand.

Hmmm
BMT, last time I checked Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot are not part of the 6 billion people on earth. They are dead. Now Saddam joins that club.

Empyrius, "For all of the dictators the U.S. has propped up in the last century I am sure ‘our’ body count far surpasses Hitler, Stalin, or Mao; South America, Central America, Asia, Africa, Pacific Islands, the Middle East . . ., we hath left no continent untouched by ‘our’ bloody fingerprints; after all we are the only nation to have killed hundreds of thousands in two separate single days (mainly civilians) and the intended effect of countless more generations hence."

This is truly pathetic nonsense and so indicative of one that cannot debate a point with facts. I am so glad that "you are sure". That is so comforting and reassuring. Just don't let us know that you are also sure that our moon is made of cheese. The two statements contain the same level of validitation. And I'm sure you have no interest in generalizing the incredible advancements that the United States has brought to this world easing pain and suffering for millions and millions of people. Advancements we continue to invent and share with the world.

Last but not least, to all the libs and others on this site that love to lament the big, bad, evil corporations, save it. The corporation is the backbone of this country and our whole capitalistic system. Without corporations most of us wouldn't have jobs, investments and the lifestyle that we enjoy so much.

Peace man.

Wiseone
"Iraq will eventually be straightened out and run by decent Iraqis, and other peoples, especially in the middle east, will see this and say 'Yeah, me too. We want our share of self determination just like Iraq.'..."

Just what is your basis for optimism in such a short term? Islam has never had a 'Reformation' type of event, and religious hatred and ceretainty are absolutely incompatable with democracy. I see absolutely NO reason for any hope that Islam is adjusting to modernity, or making any accomadation with exsisting peacefully with differing sects within itself, much less the rest of us "dhimmis".




**shameless plug alert**


My blog is updated with COOL pix of the new Su-34 fighter-bomber! Click on my name and check it out...

Johnny

Nothing would please us, the people, not the rulers, then to deal with these problems ourselves, the American Army came here, did their job that they sought and that was deposing Saddam Hussien, now that the Shia have been empowered, they will seek to overrun every government in the region, and although they know that is an impossibility, with their major funder, Safavid Persia, they can sustain their attacks, but, what with the American army daily aiding the Iraqi army in arresting and detaining Sunni fighters, it can only aid the Shia effort. Its only a matter of time anyway, before we all in the region, as you say, build up our armies, infact I dont doubt that our Saudi government has some sort of contingency plan to deal with our most deadly enemy, regardless of what all else say, and that is Safavid Persia, mind you I never say Safavid Iran, because Iran has ethnic Arabs who, despite being Shia in the majority, bare no ill will toward their Arab Saudi brethren and Balochis, who have a religious affinity with their Sunni Saudi brothers, its the Persians, who hate anything relating to Arabs and Arabic, and their racist dogma has been intertwined by their manmade religion which is the filthy heresy called Shiism.

safavid_killer
Thank you for your comments that back up my earlier point about the not-so-peaceful and immoderate nature of Islam. When you guys get around to learning to live with each other, then get back to us. Meanwhile, have fun with burning your heretics, drilling their kneecaps and pouring battery acid on their genitals...and them to you.

If you want something better, Christ is waiting to listen to you.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Raiden
In your reply to 7? were you making a point?

Celtic-Dragon

I appreciate your attempts at offering a comic relief to the situation, but you of all know from my writings that I believe only in the superiority of one religion and that is Islam, Jesus is a man I believe in, but only as gods prophet to the people, and the drilling of knee caps and pouring acid, those are all methods purely the signatures of the safavid militias, most ruthless and bloodthirsty of all is Muqtada Al-Sadr' mahdi army is, as of my writing this response, I have recived an email from Islam Memo, a Sunni muslim Iraqi site, informing that as many as 5000 mahdi army forces are gearing up to attack Al-Ghazalia,AL-Dora,Al-Mahmoudia and other Sunni neighbourhoods in Baghdad, to totally drive the Sunni population out of Baghdad, as their ex prime minister Ibrahim Al-Jaafari promised if he was reelcted, and that is that NO Sunni would EVER live in Baghdad again. Ofcourse we can try and forget about all the atrocities commited ever since they gained power, such as destroying the statue of Abu-Jaafar Al-Mansour, the founder of Baghdad, changing all the Sunni names of streets to Shia names, killing all Sunnis who bare the names of Abu-Bakr, Umar and Uthman, the first 3 rightly guided Caliphs. Siezure of Sunni mosques and turning them into dens of adultery and torture for the Mahdi and badr brigades. Thank you once again to the American government for bringing freedom to Iraq to freely become an Iranian tool of aggresion against the entire region

Savavid
after 9/11 we will never leave the middle east/islam alone. I think you can count on that my little dhimmi.

11h

inkling
Q&A,"From my traditional, American, free-market libertarianism, I ask a simple question: name a single nation that is, economically speaking, worse off by allowing western drilling experts to extract oil from beneath their barren sands than they were before".

A; Iraq! Sudan! Yemen!

safavid_killer
writes: Friday, January, 05, 2007 9:25 PM Nice try with the sniveling sunni bit.

If it werent for that dang wahaabi thing, you know man. And that whole financially supporting 1,000 mosques here in the US that preach and plan that wahab thing.

We will not continue our politically correctness for much longer. We have our wussies, and PC crowd, but we are not brits.

I am quite sure the FBI has listening devices in many of the more shrill mosques here, cant wait for them to share it with the public.

Most likely a couple of days after we bomb iranian nuke sites.

There are what 4 chosen religions? Yours has the only one started like a cult. Mohamed was not a devine PROFIT from what I gather.

11h

11h

My dear friend it seems as though you've got your historical definitions mixed, seeing as a Dhimmi is a word we generally use for those who've become conquered by the armies of Islam, and seeing as you, as a Christian I'm assuming, you dont belief Christianity is a faith spread by the sword, more the by the deeds of a good Christian and spreading the gospel, so in a sense, wouldnt that make any non-muslim who is subject to muslim law and jurisprudence a Dhimmi.
Having said that, I'm not in league with those who wage wars with countries we CANT fight, and I dont support the 19 who have hijacked our religion and made a statement that me ( and the majority of the Saudi population dont support ). As for not leaving, when your public has become sick enough of the bodies of American soldiers, who between you and me are blameless as they are following their patriotic duty to protect their country, increase in numbers heading home, sooner or later, you will. And as you've seen from Saddams murder, your quest to implant democracy in Iraq took a BIG dent, as the sectarian nature of the trial was there for all to see in the Arab and Islamic world, and though no nation said anything other than they condemn or will hold mourning for Saddam, Iran, our greatest enemy, was JOYOUS, ofcourse thats because you've assisted ( blatantly or accidentally, we'll never know ) in removing the last obstacle to its ability to spread its putrid Persian safavid tentacles and destroy whatever was left of Arabic Iraq, and now it threatens to do the same elsewhere, and before your congress studies the possibility of sanctioning Iran to death. Its best if you leave and allow the Arabs and Persians to deal with this issue themselves.

11H
Check out my blog article on the Israeli Dolphin Class submarines. You can bet that the Iranians are nervous...

Boiler
---"Hmmm
BMT, last time I checked Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot are not part of the 6 billion people on earth. They are dead. Now Saddam joins that club."---

---"---"Of the 6 billion people on this earth, not one killed more people than Saddam Hussein.

"--- HITLER AND STALIN AND POL POT to name three!"---

Please NOTE; There is NO reference to LIVING. Also NOTE; If there were reference to LIVING, since this article was written AFTER his execution, he would not qualify. Therefore please NOTE; The logical assumption is EVERYONE that existed on this earth. Please further NOTE; The EXACT count of people on EARTH at the entire time of THIS TYRANTS reign is NOT clearly established.

inkling
A) multi national meaning the companies are owned by more than one country, or just do business in another country? Or is it that these other countries require businesses to register domestically with them? I am not qualified to answer from a business perspective. We, the US government does have the choice of how, who, and under what circumstances we will or will not allow our businesses to conduct business with a given entity. You know free markets are just a myth if you are a libertarian. The government regulates, restricts, and sanctions business all the time. I do not think it is a matter of IF it can be done. And control is not what I suggest. Which multi national supplies arabia with F-16's ? I am at a loss.

B1,B2,B3). You can do better than the all or nothing arguement. If I am not mistaken we restrict US companies from doing business in many "X" countries, sanctions etc, you know the drill. Up to this point our country has not melted down into a marxist state.

Further I would say I am a bit of a libertarian myself, although obviously I have not read the manifesto as thuroughly as you; I will try to bone up on that.

Finally I will readily admit a STANDARD could never be reached for moral behavior, the chasm is too great, so you are correct on that.

I was really pointing out that now is the time to take a long range view of our oil needs. This may mean dusting off the taking of the oil fields war plan in the short term. with an ultimate goal of simply keeping the oil flow without the fomenting of radical muslims as a trade off.
Surely even the most detached capitalist could agree this depraved indifference cannot be just part of the business plan.

I would start with a direct 1 to 1 cultural exchange with arabia and egypt (muslim countries); one church opened there, for every mosque/school opened here. Student, tourist, and business exchanges the same. Business simply will not do it, and I dont expect them to.

11h




The Republic
“Oil-drilling is generally the work of multinational corporate entities”; indeed ‘entities’ that are protected by U.S. troops and private security firms, along with whatever traitorous indigenous elements we allow to govern said region.

“Forgive me for pointing out the totalitarianism that must necessarily result if your ideas are followed”; how does totalitarianism necessarily result? It has in the failed endeavors who, say in Russia and China, centralized the government. In a true democracy, the executive and judicial federal branches are extraneous components that would be the first to be excised from a free nation’s political landscape. Due to modern technology, we have the capacity to hold OPEN elections in which each and every one of us could cross-reference the results, verify for ourselves, and basically have a truly open government (all thanks to our big brother Bill Gates). In our elections, say one person for every million . . .; well here is a brief excerpt from a blog titled ‘The Republic’ I wrote some time back:

• The vote was cross-referenced and verified by college students, public organizations, and the public at large, we were all involved in the process (even prisoners were allowed to vote), lobbying, TV ads, billions spent on elections, were all things of the past
• For every geographic area that possessed one million people, ten persons were elected by each individual
• From the ten persons elected, those names were subject to a lottery that was publicly conducted, and the name chosen was that region’s representative
• The eventual chosen people, for instance, the 300 people for the United States’ 300 million, 1000 people for India, 80 people for Ethiopia, 170 people for Brazil, etc., represent the demographics of the land, that is, out of the eventual 7000 people representing the seven billion people on the earth, 3500 were women, 400 were Sub-Saharan African women, sixteen were Tanzanian women whose income range was less than ten-thousand U.S. dollars a year, etc. There were four major categories that guided the population demographic breakdown; sex, race, income level, and religious affiliation (after the first couple of elections, after money had been entirely abolished, the income level category was abolished), and, the process would be repeated if necessary to ensure that the proper demographic categories were satiated
• Every five years a seventh of the Senate would be replaced that maintained the demographic integrity of the guardians they were replacing, and the electoral process, a reasoned lottery, would guarantee that every generation, every fortieth year, the Senate would be composed of an assembly completely different from the generation before

Or some such variation thereof. If one cares to read the entire paper, here is the link:
http://jacobsspring.spaces.live.com/?_c11_blogpart_blogpart=blogview&_c=blogpart&partqs=amonth%3d3%26ayear%3d2006

For just a partial list of known American military ops here is a link to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States

“Religious hatred and ceretainty [sic] are absolutely incompatable [sic] with democracy”: is that not the truth . . .

In truth, America’s biggest threat comes from those extreme right-wing white boys up in Montana, Idaho, and down South; so while you Americans worry so about Osama, you are being targeted by people who don’t much appreciate you ‘diluting the white man’ as they would say. . .

Relinquishing your government to ‘others’ and what not . . .

Those McVeighs, Furrows, and Butlers are out in the boonies packing heat and waiting . . .

You have far bigger problems than pacifist socialist Christian city dudes such as I . . .

Peace

Safavid
You say,"I dont support the 19 who have hijacked our religion and made a statement that me ( and the majority of the Saudi population dont support )".

Your religion has not been hi-jacked, it has been energized. My friend there are hundreds of imams, and clerics spouting this fascist cr*p and you know it. You seem on the ball enough to possibly have read Mark Steyn; America Alone. You may want to pop over to MEMRI.com,or.org. the jig is up as they say, you wahaabs have successfully done what the third reich, and gustapo did in germany back in the 30's.

In all of the united states you can find but a handfull of muslims that will denounce what is going on, and these brave souls are in hiding in order to avoid the fate of Mr. Van Gough.

You just better hope you have enough long range bombers, f-16's or what ever it is going to take to deal with persian nukes. I doubt when it comes down to it they will come after arabia with ground forces 1st. Isreal aint the only ones in their a-bomb sights.

I am an athiest already converted to an avid anti-islam american citizen. That will not change until your brethren denounce jihad from mecca.

11h

FYI
11H,
Lockheed Martin manufactures the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The US government does restrict the flow of technology to friendly states. Of course, friendly today can be adversary tomorrow. As the historical seat of Islam, Saudi Arabia cannot allow its land to be defiled (their view, not mine) by the presence of another religion.

empyrious
Forget the one world government seeing how the US is the longest surviving democratic gov, and we still are muddling a bit. I think socialism, and communism may be better utopian views of society, but the nature of human beings rendered that experiment a dud. Putin is giving it a try again though.

And those boys you mentioned in Idaho are really the ones who will save our country. Mcvay was an abboration and you know it.

I am 20 miles out of chicago, we go hunting (bow and shotgun) every year. It is like that all over the country, you city boys just need to go out to some farmland communities, they make up half the country, not just some loathesome minority.

11h


al
The US government does restrict the flow of technology to friendly states.

My arse they dont! Why then do we only allow certain packages in said fighters? Because we restrict it dude!! Get a grip, we can split hairs all night.

I do not want to get into a pro business, pro free market, pro capitalism dessertation.

The US government has the right and the ability to regulate US businesses in many ways. Right or wrongly I might add.

11h

al
I take that last post back, I misread does as doesnt.
Regards,

11h

Do you understand negative
11H,
Is English your second language? Try reading my sentence again before losing your grip.

Apology Accepted
It's late and eyes start to go.

Curious Question
Is 11H a prior MOS? Isn't that the Army anti-tank infantry MOS?

al
You got me; 7th INF, 2nd INF, 101st Airborne. Ft Ord, CA, Camp Greaves S, Korea, and Ft Campbell, KY respectively.

11h

Raidencraig or whatever his real name is
is a real dope! For the record, it is the Sunni triangle that is the troublespot in Iraq. the kurds are very happy and in fact, the economy is booming. When Raidenwhatever his name is favortie president, Bill Clinton, was in power, we kept hearing, it's the economy, stupid. By the way, pal: do you have a problem with Joooooooooooooooos? I guess you do. We will win eventually in Iraq in spite of the newspapers like the New York Crimes and posters such as the one whom I have just answered.

Al Muqtada Chanters

The most despicable scene that one could ever imagine was the scene of enchanting and daunting by guards; at the time of execution of Saddam at the gallows and witnessed by the whole world.

They were getting rid of their enemy and were daft, bemused. Feeling happy is one thing but the daunting of a person at the gallows is most despicable show. The World has yet to come out from the horror and shock; of that internet cell phone video of Saddam’s execution.

The entire world has been protesting, crying out against the dooming show trail of Saddam Hussein; a ‘first witness’ of massacres of mid-late eighties was being silenced on purpose to save few skins; but for Muqtada al Sadr’s group; their ugly demonstration at the gallows; shows that how much short sighted they are to take this route?

Rather in principal; they should be protesting such execution or for that matter, any execution under foreign occupation. If staunch ally like Saddam can go down that gallows for relatively old, impotent charges; no wonder, if tomorrow we find, some one from Muqtada al sadr’s group; also dangling down that rope.

**The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is only true insofar as mutual self-interest remains secure; otherwise the enemy of my enemy will become yet another enemy later on.

Any how; Iraq does not need any enemies. They are already on self destructive 'mode'. Surely they are doomed; No ‘surge’ treatment can revive Iraq.There is no Iraq after Saddam; for sure.
-------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Just to let it be known

What has been created by the American government here in Iraq will not only be to the detriment of its " Democracy spreading " but also the destruction of the whole region as it is. And seeing as I am a Saudi native studying in America and hopeful of returning home in 6 months time,I can tell you this much, the viciously sectarian MAlki government has put its back the wall, now this safavid government which takes its orders directly from the fireworshipping persian witchdoctors in Iran, have come out protesting that other Arbian governments are peeved that Saddam was put to death on the first day of Eid ( to the Sunni world ) and say they will review their position on having diplomatic ties with said countries, this has only faciliatated showing thats its real alliegance is to Iran and not to its Arab brethren, something which some of us knew for a long time coming but has just hit the rest of the Arab world, so allow me to say, thank you again, because no we have a fifth column nation at our door steps , instead of the one run by Arabias Sword, you would call him the tyrant Saddam Hussien, yet he was the only thing stemming the tide of Persian aggresion, this region will disintegrate sooner or later, but not before we send those safavid animals ( and whoever aids them ) to hell.
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