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Saturday, May 12, 2007
Caroline Glick :: Townhall.com Columnist
What is Israel's problem?
by Caroline Glick
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In an interview last Friday with Ma'ariv, former IDF chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. (res.) Moshe Ya'alon expressed his view that the ongoing debate in Israel regarding the solution to the conflict with the Palestinians is an exercise in futility. As he put it, "We argue over what the solution is, but we still haven't agreed on what the problem is."

On the face of it, Ya'alon's statement beggars belief. It doesn't take a genius to understand what Israel's problem is. All a person has to do is take a look at Palestinian "educational" television, where Mickey Mouse exhorts kindergarteners to become mass murderers, destroy Israel, and bring about Islamic world domination, to know that Palestinian society seeks Israel's destruction and Islamic global supremacy.

And the Palestinians are not alone. The Arab and Muslim world supports their goals. The Syrian government threatens war with Israel everyday. Hizbullah and Iran issue daily calls for Israel's annihilation. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are the central clearinghouses for genocidal anti-Semitism, replete with Holocaust denial and Nazi-propaganda characterizing Jews as subhuman filth who the Muslim world must unite to snuff out.

Opposing all this is the State of Israel and its citizens. Since we are not interested in being annihilated and don't like it when people insult us, it should be fairly clear that Israel must be strong in order to defend itself and to prevent our enemies from acquiring the ability to carry out their evil designs.

But as Ya'alon points out, for the past 15 years, this obvious predicament has rarely been mentioned. It certainly has not informed the policies of Israel's governments.

So it would seem that if we wish to solve our problems, the first question that must be addressed is, why are we ignoring reality? Over the past week, three events exposed the causes of this national flight of fancy. First, last week, B'Tselem and Hamoked published a joint report entitled, "Utterly Forbidden: The Torture And Ill-Treatment Of Palestinian Detainees."

The report purports to detail 73 testimonies of Palestinian prisoners claiming to have been tortured by IDF soldiers and Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) agents.

The report was extensively and dispassionately covered by the Israeli media. The fact of its publication was the first item on Israel Radio's hourly news updates for several hours running. The impression given by the coverage was that there was no reason to doubt the veracity of the report's findings.

The press reports made no mention of the fact that B'Tselem and Hamoked are radical leftist organizations with documented histories of falsifying and distorting data. No mention was made of the funding these groups receive from European countries. Representatives of B'Tselem and Hamoked were not asked why their report does not identify any of the alleged victims and so makes it impossible for the Justice Ministry to investigate any of their claims. Moreover, the media made light of the fact that the alleged victims are terrorists who were arrested and interrogated for their role in planning and carrying out terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens.

This Wednesday, another report received similar sympathetic coverage. The World Bank published a report claiming that Palestinian poverty in Judea and Samaria is the direct result of IDF checkpoints and roadblocks. Rather than substantively examine the allegations, in repeated broadcasts, Israel Radio gave the impression that the World Bank's allegations were credible.

The fact of the matter is that the World Bank's findings, as well as its methodology and sources, are grossly prejudicial to Israel. The World Bank based its claims on reports by the Israeli radical leftist organizations B'Tselem, Hamoked, Peace Now, Yesh Din and Bimkom; the blatantly anti-Israel UN Organization for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs; and Amnesty International.

While placing the full measure of blame for Palestinian economic failure on the IDF, the World Bank report completely ignores the fact that the Palestinians are waging a terror war against Israeli society and that the IDF has a responsibility to defend the state and its citizens from murder. An indication of the report's extreme prejudice is found in the fact that the word "terror" is never mentioned.

The fact of the matter is that roadblocks are a vital component of the IDF's success in preventing terror attacks from being carried out in Judea and Samaria. In 2006 alone, security forces arrested 45 suicide bombers in Judea and Samaria en route to their murderous missions. Many of them were intercepted at roadblocks. Others were captured because the presence of roadblocks forced them to travel in a manner that facilitated their capture.

In placing the blame on Israel for the Palestinians' economic failure, the World Bank also ignored the fact that the Palestinian Authority is a kleptocracy. But this is not surprising.

Since the PA was established in 1994, the World Bank has played a central role in ignoring and so enabling Palestinian leaders to abscond with hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid money. Far from fulfilling their duty to oversee the use of development funds, World Bank officials have turned a blind eye to their diversion to private accounts controlled by Yassir Arafat and his deputies, who used the pilfered funds to enrich themselves and to raise terror militias.

To date, the Israeli media has not asked World Bank officials to explain why the august lending institution is operating as an anti-Israel pressure group and propaganda organ.

The professional malpractice of the Israeli media came through a second time on Wednesday when all three television stations opened their evening broadcasts with a radical leftist propaganda film.

The film portrayed a violent altercation at a roadblock near Otniel between IDF reservists and radical leftists and Palestinians who outnumbered the troops by a ratio of 20 to one. The leftists and the Palestinians were forcibly confronted by the reservists as they illegally dismantled an IDF roadblock.

It is hard to shake the impression that it was no coincidence that the group chose to assault a far-flung, lightly manned IDF roadblock on the same day that the World Bank published its report condemning the very existence of IDF roadblocks.

Whatever the case, the media glossed over the fact that group was not merely demonstrating. By dismantling the roadblock, they were actively sabotaging Israel's national security and the security of its citizens that the roadblock was erected to protect.

Treating the propaganda film as fact, the media gave the impression that the aggressors at the scene were the soldiers, not the saboteurs. In recent years, the once ad-hoc collaboration between leftist anti-Israel and anti-American organizations and jihadist terror organizations has become premeditated. In one striking example in late March, 20 Canadian "anti-war" activists participated in a conference in Cairo along with senior members of several terrorist organizations, including Hamas and Hizbullah. The expressed goal of the Cairo Conference was to forge an alliance against "imperialism and Zionism."

According to a report in The Ottowa Citizen, at a post-conference briefing in Toronto on April 27, the Canadians who participated in the conference encouraged their colleagues on the Left to cooperate with terrorist organizations. As one speaker put it, "We have to forge a more solid and more united anti-imperialist and anti-Zionist movement here to be able to have something to show our brothers and sisters [in the terrorist organizations] when we get back [to the next conference]."

These organizations and their fellow travelers in the UN and the World Bank have had an immense impact on Israeli and US policy-makers. Their disinformation campaigns have engendered the current situation where the US and Israeli governments base their policies on lies while stubbornly ignoring the reality of terror and the global jihad.

Case in point is the US State Department's recently released paper calling for Israel to dismantle roadblocks and checkpoints in Judea and Samaria and to enable free travel between Gaza and Judea and Samaria.

The report was greeted with shock by the IDF and the Shin Bet, which quickly understood that implementing it would be tantamount to signing the death warrants of countless Israelis. Not only would bombers be allowed to move at will, by enabling free travel between Gaza and Judea and Samaria, Israel would all but guarantee that the rockets now terrorizing residents of the western Negev would also threaten residents of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Despite the security services' logical opposition, the Foreign Ministry has given the US document passing marks. On Wednesday, The Jerusalem Post reported on one official who claimed that Israel should accept the US demand to dismantle roadblocks. As he put it, "The Western world, with the exception of the US, sees the roadblocks and checkpoints as a main problem here. It is considered collective punishment that bothers everyone, but only weeds out a few terrorists."

So rather than attacking those who would deny Israel its inherent right to safeguard its territory and the lives of its citizens, the Foreign Ministry, which is responsible for arguing Israel's case to the world, thinks we would be better off just letting terrorists run free and so endangering the lives of Israeli citizens. That is, the Foreign Ministry has swallowed whole our enemies' propaganda and is basing its positions on their false narratives of Israeli aggression and brutality.

Similarly, Wednesday night, rather than defend the reservists for their actions in defending the roadblock from attack, Defense Minister Amir Peretz, IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi and Military Advocate General Brig.-Gen. Avichai Mandelblit hung them out to dry.

Peretz called the soldiers' behavior "egregious and deviant." IDF officials referred to the footage as "embarrassing." Mandelblit ordered an investigation of the soldiers for their actions in defending their position.

In abandoning the reservists, the three sent a clear message that they care more about being embraced by the media than about defending the honor of their soldiers and the reputation of the country.

All of this returns us to Ya'alon's observation that before we try to find solutions to our problems, we first must understand what they are.

As long as we continue to base our national debates and policies on enemy propaganda, it should surprise no one that Israel finds itself in its current dire predicament. If we are serious about solving our problems, we must liberate ourselves from hostile forces that distort our national conversation with the help of their Israeli media buddies.

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About The Author

Caroline B. Glick is the senior Middle East fellow at the Center for Security Policy in Washington, D.C., and the deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post, where this article first appeared.

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Dark Messiah
Something tells me that treating you like a dog would be an insult to dogs.

What is Israel's Problem? by C.B. Glick
MUSLIMS WHO WANT TO KILL THEM! This has been the Jews PROBLEM since sand! Moshe ya'alon is a Staff LtGen. in the IDF? No wonder the IDF is in a world of...what do we do now, Sir?

The muslims have the best propaganda machine since Goebel. I feel sure he is copied while the IDF depend upon the biased media...Hawks and Doves. the Hawks (muslim extremist) in this war do NOT want peace! So give them paradise and the virgins. Be helpful!

They murder innocent people, INFIDELS, their children, brothers, sisters and relatives to reach their goal...Caliphate!

The problem with the western world is...we're asleep at the switch just like we were when Hitler was conquering Europe.

I understand Israel has an Air Force, Army, Navy and an Intelligence apparatus which could annihilate Hamas and Hezbollah.

Sooooooooo Why don't they tell the USA politicians to 'kiss their matzoh balls' and attack. Instead of continuing this insanity of tit for tat and the BS meetings?

AntiZionism= AntiSemitsm= Irrationality
There are, no doubt, a lot of well-meaning people on the left but the simple truth is that they are the in the thrall of a mistaken and destructive ideology. Its most destructive aspect, even worse than the blood baths of the Soviets, Maoists and Khmer Rouge is that they squander human talent and its potential to improve life. Ukraine and China are net exporters of children because of the economic and social conditions that exist there. Those conditions, in both cases, are a product of their Communist past.
Look at every failed communist and socialist society where people like you have tried to force everyone to believe in their version of social justice. What do you find? Losers and misfits like Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot who had sad childhoods and were angry enough to make the world pay for it under the guise of economic and social equality. Yes its true, when nobody has anything, when the state is everything, then everybody is, in some sense, equal.
Now look at the Caliphate Islamists with whom the left makes common cause, This is the reduction of human possibility to absurdity It is as absurd as pretending that a failed, repressive and ignorant culture is actually culturally superior to and spiritually closer to God than the freest, most successful culture in the history of earth.
From Breath of the Beast http://breathofthebeast.blogspot.com/

Gabby
I hardly think muslims are getting a pass on world opinion. Rather, I see a ton of demonization. The world would come to an end in some people's eyes if we saw even a fraction of similar articles on the actions of Israel's government. I can just see it now. Off with their anti-semitic heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With regard to Israel... the land was stolen from the Arabs and given to Israel, by the [Socialist] United Nations Apparently, that is not good enough for Israel's government, because they keep encroaching on surrounding lands. While it is within their purview to do so, I can fully understand why it would make the people on whose land they are encroaching, quite angry. Makes sense to me.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/parttoc.html

YBM
"AntiZionism= AntiSemitsm= Irrationality"

Yet another attempt to shut off conversation on this topic. :-)

Liberty
"...rather I see a ton of demonization."

I suppose we all see what it is we are disposed to see, but I hardly think criticizing the practice of exploding killing devices in public places and teaching the next generation that it is acceptable and desirable to do so, constitutes "demonization".

Additionally, in your particular calculus, how many years does it take until the acquisition of another peoples' land, by whatever means including legal ones, no longer counts as "occupation"? Given the choice between having my land acquired by the means today's inhabitants of Israel now occupy it, and the means by which the Muslims acquired theirs, I'm certain that most rational people would readily choose the former.

However, let me not speak for you.

my 2 cents
How's this - on the day that Israel vacated the Gaza strip the palestinians' first action was to start firing missiles into Israeli civilian areas. Nice.

the palestinians and their supporters will settle for nothing less than the complete eradication of the state of Israel. They will not recognize that the state of Israel has the right to exist. Last May about a month before Hezbollah kicked off the summer offensive against Israel their boss hassan nasrallah made a speech on al-jazeera tv in which he said among other things "our STRENGTH is the willingness to sacrifice our blood and children." nice. And I thought children were to be protected - silly me.

Egyptian clerics go on TV and incite children to martyrdom.

There are children's martyr brigades.

Don't take my word for it - Go to http://WWW.MEMRI.ORG and see for yourselves. Let them speak for themselves.

and a lot of them are still pi**ed about the crusades.

whoa

Israel
was created as a state from the remains of the Ottoman Empire, as part of the same process that created Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and those other ME states. It is just as legal and has the same right to exist. Within 24 hours it was attacked under declaratin of war by its neighbors, most of which are still at war with Israel. Israels restraint in attacking countries still at war with it is incomprhensible. Levi has it right. The only way Israel will see peace is if their neighbors see no gain in attacking. Massive retaliation with no more attention to collateral damage than shown by suicide bombers, not merely idiotic proportional response, but 100 to 1, the ratio in which they are outnumbered, is the only course that will lead to peace.

Apollo Speaks
True enough and well said.
It bears repeating that if you want to understand who is the problem here, just ask the question "what would happen if the Palis completly disarmed? There would be peace and a better, safer life for all in the area. If the Israelis disarmed, it would lead to the murder of millions and the total destruction of the state of Israel. Simplisitc? Perhaps, True? Yep

As the bombs drop
Israel will still be trying to figure out what the problem is when the missiles are raining down on their head and there is no more Israel.

RR

Liberty
"I suppose we all see what it is we are disposed to see, but I hardly think criticizing the practice of exploding killing devices in public places and teaching the next generation that it is acceptable and desirable to do so, constitutes "demonization"."

Nowhere did I say I condoned the Muslims' actions. I certainly do not. Nor, do I condone the Israeli government's actions. By the way, are you implying that Israeli children are not taught that the muslims are their enemy? Don't I remember pictures of little Israeli children writing messages on the bombs before they were fired into Lebanon?

All I am saying is that the Israeli government is not all pure and innocent in the strife around them. If they keep attempting to steal other peoples' lands, it's going to make the people whose land they are stealing, mad. So, they shouldn't turn around and act like they are all sweetness and innocence. They need to stop some of their practices, if they truly want peace.

Perfect Israel Syndrome
The problem Israel has is rooted in a horrible myth that Israel must be perfect at all times with no wiggle room for errors. The world in general is disappointed when Israeli leaders don't possess the wisdom of Solomon or aren't fierce warriors like Ari Ben Canaan, hero of Leon Uris's novel Exodus. Yes, Israel makes mistakes. Yes, Israel has had its share of lousy leaders. But Israel is still here and it's not going anywhere anytime soon!!!! Israel is not going to be pushed into the sea. Jews now know how to shoot back (I don't think we're going to fall for the old shower trick again). Sadly, this usually isn't good enough and Israel usually loses the Public Relations war.

The Palestinians don't want a state
Here's the ugliest truth of all--the Palestinians don't want a state. All Palestinians want to do is moan and complain about those damned Zionist interlopers. Name me one Palestinian contribution to civilization. Give up? I can't think of one either save for the explosive suicide belt!!! After all whining about Israel has been working all this time so why give up on a good thing now? Here's some conservative advice for the Palestinians--grow up already and take some responsibility for yourselves. Sometimes you bring about your misfortune !

Excellent and accurate article!
PROPAGANDA RULES, otherwise people would remember ISRAEL was REBORN on May 14,1948. The ENTIRE "PALESTINIAN MANDATE" is only a part of what is legally, historically, Biblically, and factually ISRAEL. ISRAEL is 3500 years old with JERUSALEM always being its capital. The anti ISRAEL UN gave 78% of the "PALESTINIAN MANDATE" for the ARABS "(PALESTINIANS)" and only 22% to the JEWS (although there are 20% of the ISRAEL citizens are belligerent ARABS) The 78% went to TRANS-JORDAN, now called JORDAN. The so called "PALESTINIANS" are squatters in ISRAEL with no legal right to be there. They were forced out of ARAB countries in the early 1900s because they were considered "LOW CAST" indigents by the other ARABS. ARAFAT in 1964 created the name "PALESTINIANS"!

Liberty
I can't understand your repetition that the Israelis are stealing somebody else's land. What land are they trying to steal? Gaza? they gave it back as soon as Egypt signed a peace treaty. The West Bank? They could raze the cities, threaten or commit genocide on the survivors and really occupy it anytime they chose, just as we displaced American Indians by force of arms. Explain your view, please.

Liberty
*sigh*

And after all that, you still insist the problem rests with Israel.


As I say, we all see what we are disposed to see.

Media and Incoherence
Caroline Glick's article is excellent. If you go back to Michael Oren's fine book "The Six-Day War," you find that little has changed in the region. In my own blog today (click on name above), I argue that "liberal bias" in the MSM is only part of the problem. An even bigger issue is the media's incoherence. Fire, flood, and famine are followed by . . . Anna Nicole Smith and Britney Spears. News without any coherence is downright dangerous. It paralyzes us with a feeling of powerlessness. In contrast, a place like Townhall, imperfect as it may be, at least connects some of the dots. Beyond that, it suggests ways in which we might improve the world around us. C'mon in to my site and discuss if you want. As for Israel, it is the last, best hope for the Middle East.

steve

Bipsy Quee
No. I think the problem rests with BOTH sides.

titaniczilla
I haven't seen anywhere here who wants Israel pushed off into the sea, as you state. I certainly do not.

As far as your claim about Israel losing the Public Relations war... I think the opposite is true. In U.S. media, one rarely sees any disparaging remark about any Israeli government action at all.

Liberty
That is the intellectually laziest argument one can make in this affair.

My Compliments, Sir
Finally, a burst of sanity!! Of course, gently99 is dead right, completely, absolutely, 100% right. "Israel was created as a state from the remains of the Ottoman Empire, as part of the same process that created Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and those other ME states. It is just as legal and has the same right to exist." But the Islamic nations refused to accept and resettle persons who fled the conflict begun by Arab agression, cleverly realizing that they could be forced to squat in deplorable conditions and used to embarrass Israel and their supporters. They have played this wicked card brilliantly. But that does not mean that the Jews stole anything from anyone. Closed case.

Isreal
The crux of the issue is that God, the creator of the universe, chose the Jews as His "chosen people". The Devil, who has always been at odds with God's plan for the world, has been trying to rid the world of the Jews since the Babylonion Empire rounded them up and took them to Babylon. The Devil's latest tool is Islam. It is a hatefilled religon, inspired in Hell, that has as one of its tenants world domination along with exterminating the Jews.
The Jews will never be treated fairly in the world arena until God sets up His kingdom here on earth. By the way, God gave the Jews Israel 3500 years ago as their homeland "forever".

Israel's problem
Israel's problem is that it has been making the lives of Palestinians in the occupied territories miserable since 1967. Now the Palestinians are really miserable and blame Israel. In language Christian TH readers would understand: Israel is reaping as it has sown.

Unsympathetic Media
Here'a another myth to be debunked--the mainstream media never sides with Israel on anything. The NY Times editorial section is always wall to wall Israel Bashing (when in doubt, blame it on Israel). Last year every news anchor stationed in the Middle East for the Hezbollah - Israeli miniwar clearly sided with Hezbollah against the Zionist Goliath. More stories were filed out of Beirut covering the damage Israel did than in Hebron covering the damage Hezbollah inflicted there. The mainstream media loves siding with the underdog (the Palestinians!) Bythe way, Israel doesn't need anyone's right to exist thank you very much.

Slam Dunk All Over Again
-Isreal has occupied their country for as long as Moses led the people out of Egypt. Check your history books. Israelis have lived in the area in various numbers since these early, ancient days. They are entitled to a piece of the Middle East just as the Arabs have their enormous share of the other areas.
-Muslims hate the Jews, yet they keep Abraham's altar in Mecca to parade around, thinking there is Muslim holiness contained, therein. The Muslim's should be venerating the Jews for the role their religion has played in establishing the cornerstone of Islam. But, it's funny. The Muslims cube is empty, just like their religion. It is based upon a devil's exchange between Abraham and Lucifer, not Gabriel as is indicated by Abraham. Why would an angel of God come down and create an entirely radical, intolerant, and violent religion after laying the foundation for a religion of peace and human freedom. There is no doubt about it, the Allah for which they speak is Lucifer, himself. Unfortunately, the leftists in the world are guided by the same evil guides, though they do not call it a religion. But it is, none the less. It is the religion of evil since it is based so obviously on hatred and violence.

-What is terribly upsetting is that these evil forces are finding so much support in the US and in Isreal. These are the last strongholds of a decent and loving God, the true God of this Universe, and are quickly self-destructing via the growing leftist mentality. Jesus spoke clearly that man has free will and that to truly worship God, a woMan must freely come to Him. This is so counter to Islam and the leftist ideology that conflict is inevitable, especially when so many people have now been forced to be come Muslims and so many other people have given up the notion of what freedom is all about.

-Finally, I pray that Israel and the US come to realization that they must become extremely diligent and alert to these forces of evil and begin to unleash the good fight.

Liberty to Bipsy Quee

>>>
No. I think the problem rests with BOTH sides.
>>>

I have say that I agree. I put blame on the Arabs for their stated intention to annihilate Israel.

And I put blame on the Israelis for refusing to comply with the Arabs stated intentions.

Yep, and America is wrong to fight back after 9-11.

Er... NO! Liberty you are a moron.

Israel should remove the Palestinians...
to Jordan and Syria. Israel will have no peace until they clear the land of their main problem. You cannot deal with people who's main goal is to kill you. I think they should have removed the Palest. years ago. What I srael is doing now is like living with a cobra in your home.

the Jews were there first
DarkMessiah writes: "If a bunch of Jews had come in, kicked me off my land, and treated me like a dog, I wouldn't like them either."

It's not THEIR land. In fact, there were no "Palestinians" there at all until Jordan kicked them out in 1970.

Know what Israel's REAL problem is? The world can't deal with the fact that the Jews were here first. Abraham lived in the Bronze Age, centuries before Jesus was born. Without Judaism there would be no Christianity. Without both there would be no Islam.

It sticks in the Muslims' craw that they are truly "the new kids on the block." And xenophobia--hate and fear whoever is not you, especially if they are successful--runs very deep in the human spirit.

See, in the past, the way the world has dealt with ancient advanced cultures that didn't fit the new mold was to just wipe them out. That is what happened to the Aztecs and the Incas. But the Jews just refuse to disappear quietly like the Incas did, and that is just infuriating the whole world.

What the Prime Minister of Israel should remind the world: "We Jews were here in the Bronze Age. We pioneered monotheism and the rule of law. Where were you?"

liberalgoodman
If you had a choice of being a Palestinian living in Israel or a Palestinian living in the rest of the Arab world, which would you choose?

For that matter, if you had the choice of being a Palestinian living in Israel or a *JEW* living anywhere else in the Arab world, which would you choose?

On Isreal's Side
I root for Isreal much like I root for any team playing against the Yankees or Cowboys.

So I want them to win, but I don't want my money used to support that cause. I see no problem with the American government and the EU stepping out of the way and allowing Isreal and their neighbors settle their problems amongst themselves.

Would this lead to higher gas prices? Of course. But that's the beauty of the free market: if you are not willing to pay the market price of a commodity, you don't have to buy it. (And why has everyone forgotten that all of our problems in the Middle East began with Nixon's blunder on August 15, 1971?).

not everybody resorts to vengeance
liberalgoodman writes: "In language Christian TH readers would understand: Israel is reaping as it has sown."

If "You reap as you have sown," then how come there were no Jewish terrorists who were terrorizing Germany to take revenge for the Holocaust? Where are the Japanese terrorists who are terrorizing America to take revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki? For that matter, how come there were no American terrorists who terrorized Britain to take revenge for the Boston Massacre and the War of 1812? How many British children did our Founding Fathers murder in terrorist acts?

Japan did NOT respond to Hiroshima and Nagasaki the way the Muslims have responded to alleged grievances. Japan moved beyond those horrors and built a peaceful nation. The Muslims, in contrast, have never found an alternative to violence.

Why is that, I wonder? Could it just be that modern Muslims are savages and modern Japanese aren't?

Not everyone responds to alleged grievances with violent vengeance. When you have suffered an injustice, YOU get to choose your course of action. Revenge is a CHOICE you make. It's not REQUIRED.

Gandhi, who I thought was a hero of leftists like you, advocated peaceful passive resistance against the British--NOT terrorism. How come so many leftists love Gandhi in certain contexts but won't apply his teachings to the Palestinians?

I'm waiting in vain for some "progressives" to ask the Palestinians, "What would Gandhi do?"

Darkmessiah
Get back to your dog Cerebus, There was nobody in the area when the British gave the land to Israel after WWI. It was swampy in some areas and desert in others, Israel wanted a home land and as it turned out it was their ancestral land anyway.
Also not all Palestinians want their Arab brethren to take over. In Israel they can own property, vote, hold seats in the government and own businesses. Something they cannot do in other Arab lands. Also years ago as now their so-called brothers did't want them in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. But Israel is the bad guy. Israel doesn't start these things with them and Israel unlike the demons you champion do not deliberately target kids and non-combatants, you cannot say that about the murders you seem to love.
During the mid-90's Clinton got Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak to stupidly give Arafat everything he asked for to make "peace", Barak agreed and Arafat turned it down. Even a satanic half wit should be able to see who are the bad actors are. Unless you graduated from Hitler's school for mental midget anti-semites you will say it's those evil Jews. To the river Styx wih you.

ARABS
Let's see here! Jews have lived on that land for 3500 years. Muslims originated 1300 years ago. They grew and multiplied, and have 22 Arab states. They all share a common religion, language, and culture; however, 22 states is not enough for them so they begin to plot the demise of the only non-Muslim state within their midst. They "CREATE" the fictional suffering Palestinian as a means to garnish world sympathy, and an unsuspecting public without the knowledge of world history responds in kind. They claim it is their land, they claim they were driven out, they claim inhumane treatment,and discrimination, while they continue to behead, murder, desecrate and destroy Jews as well as non-Muslims. And what is Israel's response? They withdraw from their own land, build a wall and employ checkpoints; yet, the Arabs will not give up until every Jew is wiped out. So Israelis have a choice. They can continue to give up more and more of their land until there is no more Israel or they can fight. If they choose to fight, then those Arabs who call themselves Palestinians will be eradicated in their quest to annihalate 6 million Jews. It will be a just reward.

Mayhe I Can Learn Something Here....

People's positions on the Israel/Palestine issue are about as ossified as their positions on Anbortion, so I'm not up for trying to change anybody's mind here.

However, when I read SteveL above, who wrote:
"If 'You reap as you have sown,' then how come there were no Jewish terrorists who were terrorizing Germany to take revenge for the Holocaust? Where are the Japanese terrorists who are terrorizing America to take revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki? For that matter, how come there were no American terrorists who terrorized Britain to take revenge for the Boston Massacre and the War of 1812? How many British children did our Founding Fathers murder in terrorist acts?"

It first occurred to me that we here in the colonies in fact DID kill off alot of loyalists (Tories (Torys?)) and/or seize their land. And then it occurred to me that, with aid from Germany among other places the Israelis ended up with a Jewish State after suffering the horrors of the Holocaust, and the Japanese were shepherded BY THEIR CONQUERORS into one of the most robust economies and highest standards of living in the modern world. All in all, things got much better for the Israelis and the Japanese. But the Palestinians?? Hmmm, not so good there.....

But I digress.

Years ago I realized that I never learned anything in School about everything that happened in Palestine (or Palestine/Israel, whatever, I just mean that area, I'm not trying to offend anybody but it wasn't Israel then) from 1917 thru 1948. In twelve years of public school all I ever learned about about modern Israel was that it suddenly popped into existence on the map around 1948 or so. Oh yes, also that it was created because of the Nazi holocaust.

Getting straight answers about thing like the Balfour declaration is like pulling teeth! And while I know of the existence of armed Zionist Militias like Irgun, Haganah and others (Groups that we would without hesitation call "terrorists" if their membership was Arab", I still don't understand why they were fighting the British. I've even heard reports that Zionist organizations in Mandate Palestine sought aid from Hitler & the Nazis in the 1920s and 1930s!

Anytime you find info that is ucomplimentary about Israel you can count on a chorus of zealots to hysterically shout "YOU'RE IGNORANT YOU'RE ANTI-SEMETIC YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GO AWAY SHUTUP!!!", and some material is obviously pushing an anti-Israel Arab agenda.

I've learned that the Israeli terrorists of that era fought the strict Jewish immigration quotas that the British tried to enforce while they smuggled in extra people, and that they fought the Arabs who were coming to the area for jobs and who didn't like the Jews.

What I don't understand is, why did the Irgun finally drive out the British in 1948, by blowing up the King David Hotel, killing over 100 members of the mandate authority and their families? Why would they drive out the British and risk being annihilated by the surrounding Arab countries? The newly formed U.N. had agreed to the formation of Israeli and Palestinian states, and frankly gave Israel far more land than had actually been settled by Jews as of 1948. The horrors of the Holocaust were becoming more and more well-known, and could not have but generated more sympathy and acceptance for Israel even the Arab world. Certainly during WWII the British were not letting fleeing Jews escape into the Mandate lands, but by 1948 the war was three years gone, the camps were closed, and conditions for Jews in Europe, while still dire in many places, had to have been improving.

Why not let the process continue to evolve, and establish a stable Jewish State with the might of Britain and America overseeing the process, and keeping out disgruntled neighbors? Did Israel want all of the Palestinian state, too? Were they just too habituated to fighting the British?

On 9/11...
... the "Palestinians" (a completely imaginary
nationality/ethnicity) poured into the streets
to celebrate the mass murder of Americans.

Israel treats these perpetually-aggrieved crim-
inal scum far too well. As titaniczilla points
out above, the "Palestinians" don't want a
state, and neither do the terror-mongering,
bloodthirsty leaders of the Islamic regimes
that support them.

What they want is an excuse to continue killing
Jews and Americans.

Wake up Israel & America
"Palestinians" are nothing more than an idiot tool of the Religion of Hate...Israel and the US needs to forget the PC crap and unleash the dogs on all the Islamist practitioners. They and their leftist allies are the enemy and need to be destroyed asap!

BIRDMAN
quack, quack.

Israel has a few stated intentions of their own.
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm


Vaquero
Leftists? You badly need to go read Burt Prelutsky's last article and the subsequent comments.


Bipsy Quee
Until i read your last post i despaired of ever getting through the incomprehensible self-destructive urges of Jewish libs like LGM. Now i see you have the way. Merely transport them to the West Bank, for educational contact and negotiation with the West Bank man in the street. After a suitable interval, these lucky and enlightened libs could be re-patriated. Hopefully, they would become sources of new information for like-thinkers, always providing, of course, that the state of their health permitted communication.

gently99
He's Jewish?! Oh, that's rich.

No wonder I didn't get a response.

Liberty - Israel's intentions

From your link:

TEXT:
We have for four years pursued peace based on a New Middle East. We in Israel cannot play innocents abroad in a world that is not innocent. Peace depends on the character and behavior of our foes. We live in a dangerous neighborhood, with fragile states and bitter rivalries. Displaying moral ambivalence between the effort to build a Jewish state and the desire to annihilate it by trading "land for peace" will not secure "peace now." Our claim to the land —to which we have clung for hope for 2000 years--is legitimate and noble. It is not within our own power, no matter how much we concede, to make peace unilaterally. Only the unconditional acceptance by Arabs of our rights, especially in their territorial dimension, "peace for peace," is a solid basis for the future.

[I see nothing here except a cry for peace where none has as yet been allowed. The culprit is Arabs who display a specific character and behavior. The authors state that "It is not within our own power, no matter how much we concede, to make peace unilaterally." unilaterally means one-sided. The Arabs have no intention of forging a lasting peace. Is this what you see?]

Text:
Negotiations with repressive regimes like Syria’s require cautious realism. One cannot sensibly assume the other side’s good faith. It is dangerous for Israel to deal naively with a regime murderous of its own people, openly aggressive toward its neighbors, criminally involved with international drug traffickers and counterfeiters, and supportive of the most deadly terrorist organizations.

[How sensible is it to negotiate with Syria if this regime is "murderous of its own people" let alone "openly aggressive toward its neighbors"? Perhaps you would care to explain what is wrong?]

TEXT:
We must distinguish soberly and clearly friend from foe. We must make sure that our friends across the Middle East never doubt the solidity or value of our friendship.

[There is nothing sinister about this statement is there?]

TEXT:
We believe that the Palestinian Authority must be held to the same minimal standards of accountability as other recipients of U.S. foreign aid. A firm peace cannot tolerate repression and injustice. A regime that cannot fulfill the most rudimentary obligations to its own people cannot be counted upon to fulfill its obligations to its neighbors.

[I cannot find fault with the logic here. Do you?]

My conclusion.

This paper was written in 1996. It referred to a 4 year time frame. That would put the beginning time of the study at 1992.

Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Clinton all had their hands in peace talks between the Israelis and Arabs with no lasting peace achieved. Carter even won the Nobel Peace Prize. It is not like Israel did not seek peace. Rather it is like the Arabs scuttled peace at every opportunity.

Are we in agreement here or is there something I missed? How far musts Israel go before the Israelis are convinced that peace with a foe that seeks your annihilation is impossible?

Quack, Quack!



Comments on Commenters
My general comment on comments: One commenter recently said that I was wrong to support Giuliani (the only Republican who can win) because he was a "socialist." Frankly, someone who calls a lifelong Republican and an American hero a socialist is beyond assistance. Such a person has a right to express himself, but nothing he says will be of any value. Merely reciting right-wing slogans to one's fellow conservatives accomplishes zero. Blowing hot air is not a political action. If you have a problem with Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi or Rudy Giuliani or Newt Gingrich, say what it is -- and what you and others intend to do about it. If you plan to do nothing but write comments, then realize your total futility as a human being. Complaints alone are not enough. Will you contribute money to campaigns? Will you stuff envelopes? Or knock on doors? Or make calls? If not, you might be a conservative, but you're more part of the problem than the solution.

steve
TalkTop65@aol.com

It started at Gen. 16:11-12
Islam claims it descended from Ishmael, and claims as well (falsely) that it was Ishmael, not Isaac, that Abraham took to Mt. Moriah (reputed to be the Temple Mount in Jerusalem) at G_d's command to sacrifice proving Abraham's faith.

Just read Genesis 16:11-12 for the simplest explanation for the problems with Islam and the rest of the world today:

12: And he (Ishmael) shall be a wild man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Laura Root

It doesn't matter, Steve
Your boy, Rudy, is now done.

Liberty writes
"All I am saying is that the Israeli government is not all pure and innocent in the strife around them. If they keep attempting to steal other peoples' lands, it's going to make the people whose land they are stealing, mad. So, they shouldn't turn around and act like they are all sweetness and innocence. They need to stop some of their practices, if they truly want peace."

The total area of all 22 Arab League countries is 6,145,389 square miles (almost twice the size of the US) while Israel has only 8,463 (smaller than Massachusetts). Where is all this land that Israel has "stolen"? Are they hiding it somewhere? They did take the Sinai Peninsula in 1967 but then gave it back to Egypt after talks with Anwar Sadat. Sadat was then considered a traitor for talking to Israel and was killed by anti-Israeli terrorists.

Bipsy Quee is absolutely correct, Palestinians are treated better in Israel than anywhere in the Arab states.

This was an excellent article as was Burt Prelutsky's. PP

Laura Root
How many problems in human endeavors can we catalogue simply because we refuse to allow ourselves and our understandings to be defined by God's Word?

All of them?

Israel's Problem
Israel has one billion problems and counting and they are all muslem. At some point the West is gonna have to cure itself of the self induced amnesia and accept the fact that they want to kill us or at the very least make us their slaves. It seems the French just realized this and hopefully the rest of the civilized world will too. Read "Because They Hate" by Bridigette Gabriel. She isn't a Jew but a Leboneese Christian who lived through the war in Lebonan and saw first hand how fanatical the muslims are. We live in a world where people are more concerned with how they are viewed through the eyes of others and care little about the truth. Much of the anti-Israel garbage coming out of the news is just people trying to be cool or wanting to belong to the group. Face it the problem is islam and until the left realizes this there is no use discussing it any longer.
I am John Doe.

Replies
titaniczilla-

Palestinians also added shrapnel to suicide belts. And soaked that shrapnel in rat poison to cause worse wounds. That rounds out the contributions, I believe.

Liberty-

Jews had been peacefully buying land in "Palestine" since th Ottoman era. They werre legal residents just like the so-called Palestinians (who were just "arabs" until after 1948). The British (with UN backing, but it was a British decision) created a state of Israel, and a Palestinian state. The arab nations around them attacked to drive the jews from lands they had legally purchased.

How does this constitute theft? I know you ahve some nutty ideas, but I always thought you believed in property rights. Jews BOUGHT THE LAND, so they own it, right? Or do you think Jews alone do not possess property rights?

And, as far as demonizing the Palestinians, how often do you hear about the PA executing citizens for selling lands to Jews? How often do you hear about Yasr's theft of millions of dollars of aid?

Lastly, there are arab (or Palestinian if you rpefer) citizen in Israel with full rights, some hold elected positions. They are descended of those who did not desert Israel and pray for ehr destruction. On the other hand, Jews are not welcome in the PA, and Christians are increasingly unwelcome as well.

The PA wants to create a terror-supporting, kleptocratic, single-race, single-religion state. Israel allows all races and religions. (Though admittedly Jewish religious figures do have much more sway in a majority jewish state -- and have some minor political authority over matters seen as "religious", but that shouldn't be surprising -- American presidents listen to Billy Graham and Islamic states listen to local mullahs, that is the nature of politics, majority religious beliefs always carry more weight, and, either formally or informally shape political opinion and laws.)

However, when looking at the PA and Israel, it is hard to see how you can see the Israelis as being in the wrong.

Actually...
Liberty, if you are consistent, do you propose returning the southwest to Mexico and most of the rest to various tribes? And the colonies to England? (We did buy the Louisiana Purchase, but from the French, who stole it, so we should return that as well.)

All land at one time or another was stolen or occupied. So, even given your dubious assertion that Israel stole the land, how long does that invalidate the existence of the state?

In addition, as I said above, individual Jewish lands were purchased prior to statehood. Yes, later land was won in DEFENSIVE wars, or taken from Palestinians who fled in 1948 in hopes of Israel being destroyed. The same happened to Tory lands in the US during the Revolutionary Wars. Do you suggest the current owners of former Tory lands be dispossessed as well?

Sorry, you are strangely inconsistent on this issue. And, much as I may disagree with you on other issues, I always thought you were consistent. However, you seem to have an irrational bias against Israel. (It does seem to be endemic to a certain type of libertarian. They seem to see the religious origins of Israel and go nuts. Not saying that is you, just that in my experience a certain type of secular/atheist libertarian despises Israel for little reason, and is willing to credit the most absurd Palestinian propaganda, when they would doubt much more believable stories from their own government.)

Last one
I see some here talking about "Israeli terrorism" and the Irgun. Yes, there was some Israeli "terrorism" against the British (though Reuters would probably have to call them freedom fighters, since they don't believe in terrorist any more).

However, I note the same people condemning Israel for a few terrorists (it was not anywhere close to a majority of the Jews in Israel, some of whom had lived in communities such as Safed which had existed peacefully for over a thousand years), these same people who condemn Israel for a handful of terrorists would be horrified if I said we should nuke every moslem country for 9/11. They argue moslem terrorism doesn't mean every moslem is a terrorist, but they think a few jewish terrorists makes Israel's very existence invalid.

In short, they show their true colors. The barbarians are never to blame, while any misdeed by any civilized westerner invalidates all acts by every westerner everywhere. In fact, it invalidates all of western civilization. Barbarians can do anything and get absolution, one westerner does one evil deed and all of us are to blame forever.

In many respects, the left's opposition to israel is just a symptom of their larger hatred of all civilization and their love for all things primitive, "authentic" and barbaric.

Why some on the right hate Israel is harder to fathom.

And tot hose who blame "both sides" when was the last time Israelis filled Palestinian children with shrapnel soaked in rat poison? And on the other side, when has the PA EVER apologized for civilian casualties? To see equivalence between the two sides is truly disturbing.

Terrorism
By the way, unlike today's Palestinian terrorists, the Irgun was not targeting civilian targets. The King David Hotel was being used as a government facility by the British, so it sounds more horrific than it was. The target was not a civilian hotel but a government facility.

Not supporting, just drawing a distinction between those who blow up a government building and those who intentionally blow up a civilian bus or pizza parlor. There is a distinction.

Terrorism part 2
One more difference. Irgun tried to drive out the British, but was not attempting to kill anyone. Unlike the Palestinians of today. So, yes, they blew up British government buildings, and the failure of the British to evacuate resulted in deaths. The palestinians on the other hand, kind of like killing people. So, it is a bit of a deceit when the left compares the King David Hotel to today's Palestinian bombing, mangling and killing of purely civilian targets.

From wikipedia. It is hardly definitive, but I don't have the books handy to look up the original sources myself, and, unlike some of wikipedia, this article is pretty well documented. Note that reporters had enough time to get to the site before the blast, sot he warning wasn't that late in coming:

(Footnote numbers were removed, and "less than" and "greater than" signs -- called angle-brackets by some -- removed around the date in the citation.)

---------------------------------------
A warning message was delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper. According to Irgun sources, the message read "I am speaking on behalf of the Hebrew underground. We have placed an explosive device in the hotel. Evacuate it at once - you have been warned."

Irgun representatives have always claimed that the warning was given well in advance so that adequate time was available to evacuate the hotel. Menachem Begin writes (p. 221, The Revolt, 1951 ed.) that the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion. The British authorities denied for many years that there had been a warning at all, but the leaking of the internal police report on the bombing during the 1970s proved that a warning had indeed been received. However, the report stated that the warning was only just being delivered to the officer in charge as the bomb went off (Bethel). According to Begin, the British had been warned of the bombing but refused to evacuate the building because "We don't take orders from the Jews" . However, according to Shmuel Katz, in his book Days of Fire, "The Haganah radio later broadcast a report that on receiving the warning Sir John Shaw, the Chief Secretary of the British administration, had said: "I give orders here. I don't take orders from Jews," and that he had insisted that nobody leave the building. Katz says that this version may be dismissed because it probably developed from the fact that while some of Shaw's close colleagues and subordinates were killed, he himself went unscathed, and gained credence when Shaw was transferred from Palestine a month later. It's more likely that the British did not take the warning seriously because they didn't believe Etzel could infiltrate their HQ that was guarded so well."

The French Consulate did open their windows from fear of a possible blast, and the operator of the Palestine Post called the police after the warning. When the bombing occurred, there were already several reporters in the area because of the leaked warning.

-----------------------------------------

Andrews
Exactly, what ideas do you think I have that are "nutty", Andrews? You throw your little snide comment out with no explanation whatsoever.

With regard to Israel's government, I said the following:
"All I am saying is that the Israeli government is not all pure and innocent in the strife around them. If they keep attempting to steal other peoples' lands, it's going to make the people whose land they are stealing, mad. So, they shouldn't turn around and act like they are all sweetness and innocence. They need to stop some of their practices, if they truly want peace."

I said nothing about them giving anything back. I am just tired of Israel's government acting like they do not cause any of the unrest in the area. If they choose to do that... fine... it's their business. Now, you apparently take issue with me saying that and go on to accuse me of hating Israel, just because I point out that it takes two to tango. LOL.

Well, while we're at it, let me give you some more hollering points. Foreign aid should be stopped. This is not limited to Israel either.

Bye now.


Israel is a terrorist state
Israel's problem is the US. Israel is a terrorist state.


Cana: 102 Faceless Dead

Indignation of an Israeli Writer: Ari Shavit




We killed 190 people in Lebanon, most of whom were refugees, during the month of April, 1996. Many of them were women, old people and children. We killed 9 civilians, one a 2 year old girl and one, a centenarian, in Sahmour, on April 11th. We killed 11 civilians, including 7 children, in Nabatyeh, on April 18th. In the UN Camp in Cana, we killed 102 people. We made sure to inflict death from a distance. In a very secular manner, without the archaic idea of sin, without the tediluvian worry to consider man in the image of God, and without the primitive proscription, "You shall not kill!"

Our solid alibi is that we are responsible for nothing, that the responsibility falls on Hezbollah. A most doubtful alibi. For when we decided to launch a massive attack on the civilian region of South Lebanon (while Israel ran no vital risk), we decided, ipso facto, to spill the blood of X number of civilians. When we decided to drive half a million people out of their homes and to shell those who remained behind (while in Israel, we did not have one single victim), we decided, in fact, to execute several dozen of them. This alibi allowed us to make such cruel decisions without seeing ourselves as rotten.

We killed them because the increasingly wider gap between the sacrosanct character that we attribute to our own lives and the more limited character we give to theirs, allowed us to kill. We believe, in the most absolute manner, with the White House, the Senate, the Pentagon, and the New York Times on our side, that their lives do not have the same weight as ours. We are convinced that with Dimona (Israel's atomic site), Yad Vashem and the Shoah Museum in our hand, we have the right to compel 400,000 people to evacuate their homes in 8 hours. And we have the right, at the end of 8 hours,to consider their homes as military targets. And we reserve the right to rain 16,000 shells on their villages and their populations. And we reserve the right to kill without any guilt feelings.

But all this cannot alleviate the gravity of the massacre, Israeli style, and our responsibility for its execution. For it is perpetrated, in general, in places to which we give free range to immoderate violence.

The shelling of Cana was executed according to the rules, orders and objectives of operation, "Grapes of Wrath." There is something wrong in these rules, orders and objectives. Something that is no longer human. Something that touches on the criminal. And all of us, without exception, were an integral part of this machine. The public supported the media, who supported the government, who supported the Chief of Staff, who supported the inquiry officer, who supported the officers, who supported the soldiers who fired the three shells that killed 102 in Cana.

Nothing can prevent Cana from becoming an integral part of our biography. Because, after Cana, we did not denounce the crime, we did not want to subject the affair to the eyes of the law, we merely wanted to deny the horror and go on with our current affairs. That is how Cana is part of ourselves -- like one of the features of our face.

As the massacre perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein (in the Cave of the Patriarchs on Muslims while praying) and the crime committed by Yigal Amir [assassin of PM Y. Rabin] were manifestations of rotten seeds in the heart of the national-religious culture, the massacre of Cana is no less extreme a grain of rottenness in the heart of secular Israeli culture: its cynicism, brutality, instrumentalism, egocentrism of the powerful; this tendency to blur the frontier between good and evil, between permitted and prohibited; this tendency not to require justice, not to care about truth.

The manner in which contemporary Israel has functioned during and after Cana shows that modern, rational Israeli life conceals a terrifying aspect.


Ari Shavit - Haaretz - New York Times Syndication.
(Translated from Hebrew in "Liberation" of May 21,1996.)



BIGbelly
Muslims didnt dominate the world when they were much more powerful, why now??

The only country that is looking for world domination is the US.

Europeans have been invading Muslim countries, and killing their people for centuries. Tell me when was the last time a Muslim country invaded a western/Christian country??

Yeah, Muslim are about to dominate the world.

Liberty
Foreign aid should be stopped, on that I do not argue.

"It takes two to tango"? Come on! So the British and French are as much to blame as the Nazis for world war II? That is the weakest argument I have ever seen. Sounds like modern school teachers punishing children who defend themselves for "continuing the violence".

And, yes, some of your ideas are nutty. The idea that Ron Paul can win is nutty. The idea that you would be better off not voting than voting for someone who doesn't share your view of the constitution 100% is nutty. The idea that if we just defended our borders and did nothing else against terrorism we would be safe is nutty.

Sorry, but I think some of your ideas are nutty.

And tell me exactly how Israel "causes disorder" in their part of the world? Refusing to leave? Refusing to die the way the Palestinians want?

Oh, and you asked where we get the idea the Palestinians want to drive Israel into the sea? Besides the endless propaganda stream from the PA officials, Hammas, and the PLO? It is in the PLO charter if you bother to look.

All or nothing
To be clear, I understand your all ot nothing position. I held it for years when younger. "A libertarian or nothing" political view. Then I realized the result of all or nothing is always nothing. So I decided that perhaps getting incremental welfare reduction was better than waiting for it to be eliminated all at once, and thus letting it continue at full speed. Or getting some unconstitutional laws repealed was better than wait for all of them to be repealed at once and getting nothing as a result.

Sorry, but getting 50% is better than getting 0%. Refusing to vote for a Republican who is only 50% correct ends up giving us Hillary or Obama who are 100% incorrect. Look at the 2006 elections. The "message" was sent and the Republicans got the wrong one. They 0are running left, not right. They think Dems won, not that they lost, so they are acting more like Dems. Great job! You -- or those like you who wanted to vote out the RINOs -- drove the few remaining right wingers leftward.

Israel belongs where it is
Any student of history is familiar with the fall of Jerusalem and subsequent conquest of Israel by the Romans in AD 69-70.

Israel was taken over by many armies: The Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Medes and Persians. Then it was taken by the Arabs, then the Crusaders and then the Arabs again.

Finally the Brits took it and the Israelis themselves took it back in 1948.

Israel belongs to the Jews not the Arabs. Arab Palestine is a creation of the British and Yasser Arafat.

Palastinians were mostly Jordanians who lived in Israel proper until the 48 war.

Now Arab Palestine is a haven for every nutcase Jihadi group under the sun.

Giving up land for peace has been a waste of time.

Anyone who reads the Islamic diatribes on the Jewish state is well aware that all the Islamic countries want is for every Jew to be tossed into the sea and every inch of Israeli territory ceded back or taken back by the Arabs.

Sorry anti-semites....not going to happen. Israel is here to stay. Try taking it back at your own peril. You'll be crushed like a bug.


Israel's Mistakes
I was very sympathetic to Israel until it invaded Egypt in 1956. Then I began to read both sides, and found strong srguments on both sides. Since then I have opposed American strong financial ($100,000,000,000 plus) and other blind support for Israel.

A few quick points.

(1) The idea of a Chosen People sounds more like Nazism than anything democratic or American. The whole Promised Land nonsense is the same. I don't believe God is in the real estate business.

(2) Israel's biggest mistake was that after its preemptive war/attack in 1967 it did not negotiate a fair settlement. Instead, it has tried its best to hold on to territory occupied and even settled in defiance of international law and its own interest. The fact that it keeps expanding illegal settlements on the West Bank is clear evidence that it hasn't given up its aim of incorporating that area into Israel. It gave up on Gaza because that territory is small and the Arab population big.

(3) This hogwash about offering the Palestinians 98% of the occupied land etc needs to be exposed. There are many problems with the claim. Palestine was going to be split into cantons, divided by for-Jews-only roads connecting settlements with the rest of Israel. Israel was going to control the borders of Palestinians, Palestinian airspace, etc. East Jerusalem (Arab part) was not going to be part of Palestine. Besides, even with all that and more, Israel had filed 20 pages of questions, doubts, etc., when this plan was brought to the fore. It was never seriously discussed. And, by the way, the three USA negotiators were all pro-Zionists, led by Dennis Ross.

Gee, we could go on and on but those who have swallowed only the Israel line are not going to be convinced, so why bother? Here's what I would suggest. READ BOTH SIDES. If you do, I'm sure that you will come to the view that both the Israelis and the Palestinian deserve our genuine sympathy, that the USA should work impartially to obtain a plan that will aid both Israel and Palestine along the road to peace and prosperity. We have failed miserably to do that in the past because of the influence of the Israeli Lobby and allies. It has been forbidden to have a full and honest debate of American policy there. Politicians are scared, and the media are heavily influenced by pro-Zionist owners or by the clout of advertizers.

And read Jimmy Carter's book. Most people who denounce it haven't read it. Far too many Americans have succumbed to the abundant and false propaganda spread by the Israeli lobby.

It was our unfairness in this arena that caused the initial hatred of the USA and eventually led to 9-11. We could deal a strong blow against Muslim terrorists if we solved the Israel-Palestine problem justly and soon.

Roy
What form should that solution take, in your opinion?

BIGbelly
The Muslims were much more powerful way before America was even discovered, so keep your Jefferson crap story for the guillible and the ignorant.

At the beginning of the 1600s the Muslims were already on the downfall.

Christian Europe started invading and colonizing much of the Muslim world shortly after that. Millions of Muslims were killed in the process, their women raped and their resources stolen. But that's ok with you. Anybody bother to read the bible of the christians to figure out their sinister plan?? You tell us, bigbelly.


BIGbelly
Read my post about Israel from an Israeli-Jew (Ari Shavit) perspective.

DS AND ARI SHAVIT
It is not suprising that DS uses far leftist columnist Ari Shavit who writes for the extreme far left newspaper Haaretz as a source to validate his anti-Israel bias. Ari Shavits has no more credibility than our own Michael Moore has here at home. Both are committed leftists who blame their own governments for the ills of the world. However, even Ari Shavit when referring to last year's war in Lebanon wrote that "Israel is currently waging the most just war in its history," he wrote Monday. "Not a war of occupation, but rather a war of defense. Not a settlements war, but rather a Green Line war. A war over the validity of an international border that was drawn, defined and recognized by the United Nations." Secondly, it was Mulims who invaded Europe time and time again that led to the Crusade. Muslims are a people who have lived by the sword and died by the sword since Islam's inception and until Islam undergoes a reformation from within, they will continue their barbaric savagery till they are defeated or eradicated.


Grateful American
"Secondly, it was Mulims who invaded Europe time and time again that led to the Crusade"


Which countries in Europe were inaveded by Muslims that led to the Crusades in the year 1095?? I will be waiting for your response.

Truthful James
Excellent post, Thank you.

DS
My reply:
"The crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were the West's belated response to the Muslim conquest of fully two-thirds of the Christian world. While the Arabs were busy in the seventh through the tenth centuries winning an opulent and sophisticated empire, Europe was defending itself against outside invaders and then digging out from the mess they left behind. Only in the eleventh century were Europeans able to take much notice of the East. The event that led to the crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude but energetic Europeans. He got it. More than he wanted, in fact.

Pope Urban II called the First Crusade in 1095. Despite modern laments about medieval colonialism, the crusade's real purpose was to turn back Muslim conquests and restore formerly Christian lands to Christian control. The entire history of the crusades is one of Western reaction to Muslim advances. The crusades were no more offensive than was the American invasion of Normandy. As it happened, the First Crusade was amazingly, almost miraculously, successful. The crusaders marched hundreds of miles deep into enemy territory and recaptured not only the lost cities of Nicaea and Antioch, but in 1099 Jerusalem itself.

The Muslim response was a call for jihad, although internal divisions put that off for almost fifty years. With great leaders like Nur ed-Din and Saladin on the Muslim side and Richard the Lionheart and St. Louis IX on the Christian side, holy war was energetically waged in the Middle East for the next century and a half. The warriors on both sides believed, and by the tenets of their respective religions were justified in believing, that they were doing God's work. History, though, was on the side of Islam. Muslim rulers were becoming more, not less powerful. Their jihads grew in strength and effectiveness until, in 1291, the last remnants of the crusaders in Palestine and Syria were wiped out forever.

But that was not the end of the crusades, nor of jihad. Islamic states like Mamluk Egypt continued to expand in size and power. It was the Ottoman Turks, though, that built the largest and most awesome state in Muslim history. At its peak in the sixteenth century, the Ottoman Empire encompassed all of North Africa, the Near East, Arabia, and Asia Minor and had plunged deep into Europe, claiming Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Hungary, Croatia, and Serbia. Under Suleiman the Magnificent the Turks came within a hair's breadth of capturing Vienna, which would have left all of Germany at their mercy. At that point crusades were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself. Christendom had been shrinking for centuries. The smart money was all on Islam as the wave of the future." But that is not the way it turned out. Now with the fall of Natzism and Communism, Islamists see a chance to create an Islamic caliphate. They too will be defeated, but at what cost?




JAMES
Much of what you posted is utter non-sense. Self-determination was the purpose for a Jewish state and that could not have been had with a single state for Muslims and Jews. Secndly, why should the Jews be forced to share what was theirs? Besides, Muslims already encompassed 22 states. Why the need for another? Regardless, they were offered an additional state in 1948, but they refused because they weren't really interested in an additional state. What they sought was the destruction of a Jewish state within their midst.....an afront to their Islamic pride. So much for Muslim tolerance of non-Muslims.

Grateful American

Name one CHRISTIAN country that the Muslim invaded and led to the crusades in 1095.

Wouldnt make sense that the crusaders get back their Chritian land?? why the middle east (land of the Arabs)??


DS
The Muslims invaded much of Europe, and by the 16th century were claiming Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Hungary, Croatia, and Serbia. Did the Muslims not invade Jerusalem?

DS
The following is an example of Muslim invasion in India. Here is what Belgian historian Konraad Elst writes
"The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated.

MUSLIM INVADERS IN EUROPE PRIOR TO 1050
The following history lesson is for DS who insists there was no Muslim invasion into Europe prior to 1050. "In 711, a Muslim fleet landed on the Iberian Peninsula (the site of modern-day Spain and Portugal). The invaders met forces sent by Rodrigo, the Visigoth Christian king. Outnumbered, the Muslims still defeated King Rodrigo. The Arab and Berber cavalry went on to capture most of Iberia for Islam by 715.

Charles of the Franks

Following the collapse of the Roman Empire, Europe in the 700s was divided into numerous kingdoms and even smaller dukedoms that were almost always at war with each other. No unified nations existed. Most living in Europe were Christians, but some peoples still practiced pagan religions.

The Kingdom of the Franks, a loose confederation of dukedoms, occupied lands that would later become France and part of Germany. Power rested in the hands of the local dukes and their noblemen followers. They acknowledged a Frankish king, but he was little more than their puppet. The Franks had been converted to Christianity 200 years earlier.

Charles was the illegitimate son of the Franks' King Pippin II. When Pippin died in 714, his wife, Plectrude, imprisoned Charles to assure that her grandson, then a small child, would become king. But Charles soon escaped.

Plectrude came under attack by several dukedoms in the Frankish kingdom. Charles, however, raised a small fighting force to confront them. In his first battle, Charles was defeated. But this would be his last defeat. Plectrude bribed the invaders to cease their attack, but on their way home, Charles ambushed them and killed many.

Charles then went on the offensive and invaded his enemies' territory. After winning several battles, he returned home to confront Plectrude. In 717, he installed his own puppet king and made himself "Mayor of the Palace," the power behind the throne.

For the rest of his life, Charles was engaged in constant warfare throughout the Frankish kingdom. He assembled a formidable army of experienced fighters who received land from Charles in exchange for their loyalty. Charles went to war to take land, sometimes from churches and monasteries, which enabled him to increase his army.

The Battle of Tours

While Charles and the other Franks were fighting one another, the Muslims in Iberia were preparing to fight the Franks. In 721, they mounted raids across the Pyrenees Mountains into Aquitaine, the southernmost dukedom of the Franks. Duke Eudo of Aquitaine defeated the Muslims in one battle, but they continued their raids. The Muslim cavalry looted and burned churches, monasteries, and entire cities.

Around 732, the Muslim governor in Iberia, Abd ar-Rahman, led thousands of horsemen and their families into Aquitaine once again. They killed, burned, and looted as they went. After crushing Duke Eudo in battle, Abd ar-Rahman sacked the city of Bordeaux and burned the cathedral at Poitiers.

Duke Eudo, a longtime enemy of Charles, had to call upon him for help to stop the Muslim invaders. Charles responded quickly, and an epic battle soon took place near Tours. It is known as the Battle of Tours (also as the Battle of Poitiers).

There are many uncertainties about this battle. We are not sure exactly where it took place, the length of it, the number of combatants, the tactics used, or even the year in which it occurred (732 or 733). But we do know that a major battle took place and the Franks led by Charles won.

The Battle of Tours was apparently a clash between Abd ar-Rahman's cavalry and Charles' infantry. The Muslim horsemen attacked numerous times with swords and spears against the Franks in square formations, fighting with battleaxes, spears, and massive broadswords.

Only a few accounts of the battle were written down at the time. A Frankish chronicle related that Charles "rushed in against them," perhaps indicating that he also used cavalry. "With Christ's help," the chronicle says, "he overturned their tents, and hastened to battle to grind them small in slaughter." The Muslims may have turned from battle to protect their families and loot-filled tents. In the confusion, Abd ar-Rahman was speared to death.

Charles did not pursue the Muslims as they burned and plundered their way back to Iberia. The Battle of Tours came to be known in the West as the great battle that stopped the Muslim advance. To Muslims, it was a minor battle.

Muslim forces continued to mount raids north of the Pyrenees. These raids only ended after 740, when the Berbers revolted in Iberia and North Africa.

Charles continued warring against his Frankish rivals, but with the added glory as the savior of Christendom. Charles was later given the name Martel, meaning "The Hammer." His grandson, Charles the Great (Charlemagne), finally unified most of Western Europe under his rule.

The Muslims, however, remained in Iberia for another 700 years." WHAT SAY YOU NOW, DS?


It Isn't What you Do, It's Who You Are
Andrews:
"I see some here talking about "Israeli terrorism" and the Irgun."

Yes, and the Haganah, and the Stern Gang, and others. It's amazing how hard it is to learn anything about this!

A:
"However, I note the same people condemning Israel for a few terrorists (it was not anywhere close to a majority of the Jews...."

Ahh yes, only a *few* Israelis, but every man woman and child in the occupied terrorists (excepting the settlers) is a vicious Jew-hating TERRORIST, right?

A:
"Barbarians can do anything and get absolution, one westerner does one evil deed and all of us are to blame forever."

It's ironic that the bullsh-t detector going off in my brain when I read this crap was honed on the writings of Philip Roth.

A:
"And on the other side, when has the PA EVER apologized for civilian casualties?"

Countless times, read the newspapers. (oops, it's that evil MSM again...)

A:
"By the way, unlike today's Palestinian terrorists, the Irgun was not targeting civilian targets. The King David Hotel was being used as a government facility by the British,"

Err, so I guess you wouldn't mind a suicide bomber blowing up the Knesset?? Over half the people who died at King David weren't even British, 17 were Jews.

A:
"Irgun tried to drive out the British, but was not attempting to kill anyone. Unlike the Palestinians of today."

Ahhh, so it was a *nice* bomb, then...

A:
" The palestinians on the other hand, kind of like killing people."

Yep, and dem darkies just can't keep dey paws off de white wimmings....

A:
"A warning message was delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper."

HOW CAN YOU WRITE THIS??? Do you deny that Hamas has said, repeatedly, that Israel will never have security while they hold the occupied territories?? By this (horribly twisted) logic of yours, the blood of every Israeli who ever died of terrorism is therefore on the hands of the Israeli government.

A:
"So, yes, they blew up British government buildings, and the failure of the British to evacuate resulted in deaths."

If you can write this B.S. with a straight face, then I can write that those heroic Palestinians fight to get their homes back, and the failure of the Israelis to return it results in their deaths. (But sorry, I just can't keep
a straight face, it's TOO stoopid... :) )

FLAMING LIBERAL
There are no Palestinians....they are all Arabs who immigrated from other areas. They have less rights to that land than a Mexican to California. Why don't you give up your home to those who seek to displace you?

Grateful American
And in turn, why not have the Israelites give up their land to the tribes of non believers who preceded them. That is errant nonsense.

Do you disagree with what I said regarding the Gush and the Kookists, or with the violations of the illegal settlements, or with the remark regarding the "Amalekites" -- sorry about the typing error -- or about the betrayal by the Gush of the Labor Party which went along with the gag?

And what is this, regarding self determination. The absolute devil Hitler was a great believer in that for the Germans, no matter how much suffering he piled upon the Jews in the Holocaust.

The problem does not go away, just because you turf them out from their legally acquired property into refugee camps and say to the Moslem world -- here, you take them, we don't want them.

The Romans did the Diaspora business to the Jews, and now you want the same for the Palestinians. It didn't take for your ancestors and it won't take for the newest inductees.

The State of Palestine was big enough for all. It would have a growing Jewish majority for as long as people returned. It was only when immigration slowed down that Israel looked at the birth rates of its 15% Arab minority versus its Jewish population and decided that there was trouble ahead.


Virtual Palestinians
G.A.:
"There are no Palestinians....they are all Arabs who immigrated from other areas."

I wish you'd get together with the other Israeli apologists who say that the israeli's lawfully bought all the land from the people who were living there. Then at least you'd all be spouting a CONSISTENT stream of B.S. instead of these conflicting ones.

Or you could get real. Bethlehem empty prior to the Balfour declaration?? The entire meditteranean coast from the Sinai up to Lebanon empty??? JERUSALEM EMPTY??????

The 150-year-old Olive groves that fall to Israeli bulldozers in the occupied territories were not transplanted to there after 1917. The land was occupied continuously, and the jews were a small minority of the inhabitants. It's true that when Britain made it's intentions known at the close of WWI and began developing mandate Palestine, many Arabs moved there for economic reasons along with the incoming jews.

The present situation is a mess. At the very least, don't try to rewrite it's origins with lies.


JAMES
JAMES WRITES "The problem does not go away, just because you turf them out from their legally acquired property into refugee camps and say to the Moslem world -- here, you take them, we don't want them.

The Romans did the Diaspora business to the Jews, and now you want the same for the Palestinians. It didn't take for your ancestors and it won't take for the newest inductees.

The State of Palestine was big enough for all. It would have a growing Jewish majority for as long as people returned. It was only when immigration slowed down that Israel looked at the birth rates of its 15% Arab minority versus its Jewish population and decided that there was trouble ahead."

WHY SHOULD THE JEWS BE FORCED TO TAKE A HOSTILE FOREIGN POPULATION? WHY SHOULDN'T THEIR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN BE FORCED TO TAKE THEM? JORDAN IS 70% "PALESTINIAN" AND THAT IS WHERE THE MAJORITY OF THEM COME FROM. IT IS LUDICROUS TO EXPECT ISRAEL TO OPEN UP THEIR HOMES TO THOSE WHO SEEK TO DESTROY THEM.

JEWS DID NOT CREATE A DIASPORA FOR MUSLIMS. THEY FLED ON THEIR OWN ACCORD AND THE ONES WHO DID NOT ARE NOW RESIDENTS OF ISRAEL. IT WAS PAN ARABISM THAT CREATED THE MYTH OF A "DISPLACED PALESTINIANS" AS A TOOL TO GARNISH SYMPATHY FOR THEIR QUEST TO DELEGITIMIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL. UNFORTUNATELY, THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED AS EVIDENCED BY YOUR WILLINGNESS TO BELIEVE ALTERED HISTORY.

THE IDEA OF A MULTINATIONAL STATE DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF WHY A JEWISH STATE WAS NEEDED. JEWS COULD NOT HAVE HAD SELF-DETERMINATION WITH A POPULATION THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MUSLIM MAJORITY. SECONDLY, THERE WERE ALREADY 22 OTHER MUSLIM STATES IN EXISTENCE. THIRD, WHY NOT ALLOW A JEWISH STATE THAT HAD ITS ORIGIN ON THAT LAND FOR OVER 3000 YEARS?


FLAMING LIBERAL
AS LONG AS YOU BEGIN WITH THE DECEITFUL PREMISE THAT JEWS "OCCUPIED" THAT LAND, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DEBATE. JEWS HAVE HAD A CONTINUOUS PRESCENCE ON THAT LAND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. YES, JEWS FROM THE DIASPORA BOUGHT LAND FROM THE BRITISH, BUT NEVER THE LESS, THERE WERE ALREADY JEWS ON THAT LAND. THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THE RISE OF ISLAM AND THEY WILL BE THERE LONG AFTER ISLAM FALLS.

REPLY TO GRATEFUL AMERICAN

Who WRITES (Lowercase-Challenged though he may be): "AS LONG AS YOU BEGIN WITH THE DECEITFUL PREMISE THAT JEWS "OCCUPIED" THAT LAND, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DEBATE."

G.A., we both realize that Jews were given the Nation of Israel by the British. I don't even know what you mean by the above.

My hopes for the nation of Israel are the same as yours (though I don't call for the fall of Islam). Like any fair-minded person who learns the facts, I also want justice for all the non-Jews indigenous to that area (how's about we call them 'Palestinians', OK?) like Britain promised in 1917 and the U.N. planned in 1947.

GA REDUCED TO CAPITAL LETTERS
Grateful American --

Block lettering adds nothing to your diatribe.

Your silence regarding the history of Israel is tacit agreement.

By the way, GA, who determines the right of self determination for the Palestinian Arabs?
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