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Sunday, August 13, 2006
Caroline Glick :: Townhall.com Columnist
An unmitigated disaster
by Caroline Glick
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There is a good reason that Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah has accepted UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which sets the terms for a cease-fire between his jihad army and the State of Israel.

The resolution represents a near-total victory for Hizbullah and its state sponsors Iran and Syria, and an unprecedented defeat for Israel and its ally the United States. This fact is evident both in the text of the resolution and in the very fact that the US decided to sponsor a cease-fire resolution before Israel had dismantled or seriously degraded Hizbullah's military capabilities.

While the resolution was not passed under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter and so does not have the authority of law, in practice it makes it all but impossible for Israel to defend itself against Hizbullah aggression without being exposed to international condemnation on an unprecedented scale.

This is the case first of all because the resolution places responsibility for determining compliance in the hands of UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Annan has distinguished himself as a man capable only of condemning Israel for its acts of self-defense while ignoring the fact that in attacking Israel, its enemies are guilty of war crimes. By empowering Annan to evaluate compliance, the resolution all but ensures that Hizbullah will not be forced to disarm and that Israel will be forced to give up the right to defend itself.

The resolution makes absolutely no mention of either Syria or Iran, without whose support Hizbullah could neither exist nor wage an illegal war against Israel. In so ignoring Hizbullah's sponsors, it ignores the regional aspect of the current war and sends the message to these two states that they may continue to equip terrorist armies in Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority and Iraq with the latest weaponry without paying a price for their aggression.

The resolution presents Hizbullah with a clear diplomatic victory by placing their erroneous claim of Lebanese sovereignty over the Shaba Farms, or Mount Dov - a vast area on the Golan Heights that separates the Syrian Golan from the Upper Galilee and is disputed between Israel and Syria - on the negotiating table. In doing so, the resolution rewards Hizbullah's aggression by giving international legitimacy to its demand for territorial aggrandizement via acts of aggression, in contravention of the laws of nations.

Moreover, by allowing Lebanon to make territorial claims on Israel despite the fact that in 2000 the UN determined that Israel had withdrawn to the international border, the resolution sets a catastrophic precedent for the future. Because Lebanon is receiving international support for legally unsupportable territorial demands on Israel, in the future, the Palestinians, Syrians and indeed the Jordanians and Egyptians will feel empowered to employ aggression to gain territorial concessions from the Jewish state even if they previously signed treaties of peace with Israel. The message of the resolution's stand on Shaba Farms is that Israel can never expect for the world to recognize any of its borders as final.

By calling in the same paragraph for the "immediate cessation by Hizbullah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations," the resolution treats as equivalent Hizbullah's illegal aggression against Israel and Israel's legitimate military actions taken in defense of its sovereign territory.

Operational Paragraph 7, which "affirms that all parties are responsible for ensuring that no action is taken contrary to paragraph 1 [which calls for a cessation of hostilities] that might adversely affect the search for a long-term solution, humanitarian access to civilian populations, including safe passage for humanitarian convoys, or the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons," all but bars Israel from taking military action to defend itself in the future. Any steps Israel takes will open it to accusations - by Annan - of breaching this paragraph.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni had let it be known that Israel's conditions for a cease-fire included the institution of an arms embargo against Hizbullah. The government also insisted that the international force it wished to have deployed along the border would work to dismantle Hizbullah.

However, paragraph 8 puts both the question of an arms embargo and Hizbullah's dismantlement off to some future date when Israel and Lebanon agree to the terms of a "permanent cease-fire." In addition, it places the power to oversee an arms embargo against Hizbullah in the hands of the Lebanese government, of which Hizbullah is a member.

While the resolution bars Israel from taking measures necessary to defend its territory and citizens, by keeping UNIFIL in Lebanon it ensures that no other force will be empowered to take these necessary actions. Furthermore, paragraph 2 "calls upon the government of Israel, as that deployment [of the Lebanese military and UNIFIL] begins, to withdraw all of its forces from southern Lebanon in parallel." This means that Israel is expected to withdraw before a full deployment of Lebanese and UNIFIL forces is carried out. As a result, a vacuum will be created that will allow Hizbullah to reinforce its positions in south Lebanon.

Finally, the resolution makes no operative call for the release of IDF soldiers Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev now being held hostage by Hizbullah. By relegating their fate to a paragraph in the preamble, which then immediately turns to Hizbullah's demand for the release of Lebanese terrorists held in Israeli jails, the resolution all but eliminates any possibility of their returning home.

Aside from the resolution's egregious language, the very fact that the US has sponsored a resolution that leaves Hizbullah intact as a fighting force constitutes a devastating blow to the national security of both Israel and the US, for the following reasons:

It grants the Lebanese government and military unwarranted legitimacy. The resolution treats the Lebanese government and military as credible bodies. However, the Lebanese government is currently under the de facto control of Hizbullah and Syria. Moreover, the Lebanese army is paying pensions to the families of Hizbullah fighters killed in battle, and its forces have actively assisted Hizbullah in attacking Israel and Israeli military targets. Indeed, the seven-point declaration issued by the Lebanese government, which the UN resolution applauds, was dictated by Hizbullah, as admitted by Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and Nasrallah last week.

It incites Shi'ite violence in Iraq. From a US perspective, the resolution drastically increases the threat of a radical Shi'ite revolt in Iraq. Hizbullah is intimately tied to Iraqi Shi'ite terrorist Muqtada al-Sadr. In April 2003, Hizbullah opened offices in southern Iraq and was instrumental in training the Mahdi Army, which Sadr leads. During a demonstration in Baghdad last week, Sadr's followers demanded that he consider them an extension of Hizbullah, and expressed a genuine desire to participate in Hizbullah's war against the US and Israel.

It should be assumed that Hizbullah's presumptive victory in its war against Israel will act as a catalyst for violence by Sadr and his followers against the Iraqi government and coalition forces in the weeks to come. Indeed, the Hizbullah victory will severely weaken moderate Shi'ites in the Maliki government and among the followers of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

It empowers Iran. Iran emerges as the main victor in the current war. Not only was it not condemned for its sponsorship of Hizbullah, it is being rewarded for that sponsorship because it is clear to all parties that Iran was the engine behind this war, and that its side has won.

The UN resolution does not strengthen the US hand in future Security Council deliberations regarding Iran's illicit nuclear weapons program because the states that object to any action against Iran - Russia and China - will continue with their refusal to sign on to any substantive action.

Indeed, Russia's behavior regarding the situation in Lebanon, including the fact that a large percentage of Hizbullah's arsenal of advanced anti-tank missiles was sold by Russia to Syria and Iran, exposes that Moscow's role in the current conflict has been similar to the position taken by the Soviet Union in earlier Middle East wars.

Furthermore, because the resolution strengthens the UN as the arbiter of peace and security in the region, the diplomatic price the US will be forced to pay if it decides to go outside the UN to contend with the Iranian threat has been vastly increased.

Many sources in Washington told this writer over the weekend that the US decision to seek a cease-fire was the result of Israel's amateurish bungling of the first three weeks of the war. The Bush administration, they argued, was being blamed for the Olmert government's incompetence and so preferred to cut its losses and sue for a cease-fire.

There is no doubt much truth to this assertion. The government's prosecution of this war has been unforgivably inept. At the same time it should be noted that the short-term political gain accrued by the US by forging the cease-fire agreement will come back to haunt the US, Israel and all forces fighting the forces of global jihad in the coming weeks and months.

By handing a victory to Hizbullah, the resolution strengthens the belief of millions of supporters of jihad throughout the world that their side is winning and that they should redouble efforts to achieve their objectives of destroying Israel and running the US out of the Middle East.

International legal scholar Prof. Anne Bayefsky assisted the author in analyzing the text of UN Security Council Resolution 1701.

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About The Author

Caroline B. Glick is the senior Middle East fellow at the Center for Security Policy in Washington, D.C., and the deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post, where this article first appeared.

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Why Aren't We Fighting to Win
The last time I checked, the Jews weren't murdering civilians for political gain in India, Thailand, Indonesia, Spain, the US, France, England, and many other countries.

The Muslims did that.

Sixty plus years ago, too many Europeans helped the Nazi's murder 6 million Jews and then begin to invite in their place 20m Muslims. One group is very small but has made countless contributions to science, literate, philosophy, music, and just about everything worthwhile in this world. The other group has over a billion members, vast oil wealth, and yet no ability to create peaceful, prosperous societies.

Why then, are we trying to win the hearts and minds of these moral idiots? A very large percentage of them are sympathetic to the goals of terrorists.

Isn't it time we do what we did to the Nazi's and the Japanese? We inflicted enough death, pain, and destruction on them that they submitted to our will. Their punishment should include confiscation of their oil fields, liberation of their women and children, implementation of prolonged Marshall law, and liberal introduction of peaceful religious concepts by Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists.

Rugged Individualist
You sound like God ordering the extermination of the Canaanites (again) -- because "a very large number of them" are sympathetic to the goals of the terrorists.

As long as you're calling for genocide -- can you be more specific about how large that percentage is, and how you have come to know that.

As it happens, I happen to be be sympathetic to the goals of the terrorists also -- return to the Arabs land that was stolen from them. I've never killed anybody. I did strike somebody once, in the 7th grade.

But -- despite my personal innocense -- you would inflict death, pain, and destruction upon me unless I submit to your will. You'd confiscate my wealth, liberate women who mostly don't want to be liberated, and subject me to prolonged Marshall Law.

Hypothetical question: If Osama is recording these postings, haven't you just proven him correct about us?

And if you have -- as a rugged individualist, do you accept personal accpuntability for the consequences of your actions?

You want to kill people who never harmed anybody.

Here's moral lesson for you. It's not what a person desires, or is sympathetic with, but how one goes about getting it.

Essentially, you want to kill everyone who disagrees with you -- a jihad. And somewhere else here, in some other forum, I suspect you have said THEY are the barbaric ones.



Israel's Neville Chamberlain
For 70 years the boneheads in the freeworld have been "giving peace a chance". For 70 years "giving peace a chance" has resulted in the mass murder, torture and enslavement of hundreds of millions of people. When will the boneheads ever learn? Apeasment is failure! Always has been and always will be.

The UN once again proves
that it is no friend of the free world. Bush is a fool to allow the United States to accept such a one-sided resolution. This is going to result in a Hezbollah false claim to victory for defeating a far superior Israeli army. An army that was only allowed to use a fraction of it's power. But it is a very real victory for Iran and terrorists around the world! We can now expect terrorists activities to increase throughout the world.

Bush reminds us constantly that we are at "war against terrorism." Yet these actions do nothing but aid terrorism! I only hope that Israel ignores the resolution and does it right.

Of course all the Liberals and Talicrats will love it! After all, following the marching orders of Iran, Hesbollah has Hijacked Lebanon like the Liberals have Hijacked the Democratic party. It's like watching themselves in action!

Rugged Individualist and Rod have it exactly right!

unmitigated disaster?
another distorted ELEPHANT VS MOUSE STORY. In reality what we have is one of the worlds most powerful and advanced armys unleashing it"s fury againts a small group of defiant individuals armed with antique small arms. the official story is that this small group of defiant individuals invaded the country with one of the worlds most advanced army and KIDNAPED a couple of solders. the other story which appears more creditable is that the solders were CAPTURED when they were caught scouting on the wrong side of the border. #1 were the solders kidnaped or captured because they were found where they weren't supposed to be. #2 do you distroy a whole country which includes killing women and children because a hand full of defiant individualds dareed capture a couple of trespassers.

Goshawk
Goshawk sez: Bush is a fool to allow the United States to accept such a one-sided resolution.

We drafted it. With France. Which has been in the news for seveal days.

Bush has always been a fool.

Goshawk: I only hope that Israel ignores the resolution and does it right.

They accepted it. Quite some time ago now. Really had no choice.









Don't count Israel out just yet.
War comes and goes. So will Olmert.

I never HEARD the fat lady sing.

YET...

Truthseeker
Truthseeker sez: another distorted ELEPHANT VS MOUSE STORY. In reality what we have is one of the worlds most powerful and advanced armys unleashing it"s fury againts a small group of defiant individuals armed with antique small arms.

You mean the US or Israel? :-)

I'm on your side here -- I think -- but they both had rockets (a proxy war between the US and Iran, who had armed each side). The Hesbollah did cross over and back, through a tunnel.

After almost 60 years Israel has yet to learn what we learned in 'Nam -- it'a lmost impossible to defeat a determined indigenous people, defending their own land.

The "American Empire" neocons are pissed, because Iran and Syria are supplying arms to one side ... same as we've been doing for 60 years to the other side.

As you see in the article above, some on the right want Israel to have a clear arms superiority. That ain't gonna happen -- hence the latest deal at the UN.

Meanwhile, Bush is in the crossfire. Even NewsMax reports that he is damaging his Congressional party for November (so far) -- which means they could turn on him like they did on Nixon (some already have, including two columnists here at Townhall.com, perhaps three). Don't forget, Bush has been jamming Congress in the eye all along. Now he needs them. This could be amusing as it plays out.

Look for a crunch in late September, early October. If Bush keeps collapsing in the polls, and Congressional Republicans start imagining Hillary Clinton holding all the power Bush has usurped for the presidency, they will start asserting their constitutional powers and leave Bush hanging out to dry. *IF* Bush keeps collapsing -- helped by columns like the one above from his own side of the aisle.


Ms Conservative
Ms Conservative sez: War comes and goes. So will Olmert.

According to NewsMax, Olmert is in trouble domestically -- now mostly from his own left. Leading left/intellectuals have begun demanding a cease-fire, saying the carnage is too high for the payback. Perhaps they can sniff Bush on the ropes. I'm sure you know how fractious it is, internally, in Israel.

This is how VietNam ended.


Wow, such gibberish
I have read some nonsense on these pages, but we are certainly going for the top in some of these posts. Hezbollah is being describes as an indigenous people fighting for their homeland, there are even comparisons to Vietnam and proxy wars with Iran. My god, doesn't anyone have the sense they were born with?

Hezbollah was never fighting for their homeland which in point of fact they don't have. So where did they come from? Syria, they are Syrians not Lebanese. Last time I checked Israel did not attack Syria though they should have and wiped it out as well. Israel did not steal any land from anyone, they were attacked by (take your pick), Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq (all of the above) and kicked back. Anyone who believes Israel stole land is a moron.

Vietnam has no comparison to the middle east affair unless it is craven coward politicians meddling in a successful military affair to snatch defeat from victory which is what occurred in Vietnam kiddies. Vietnam was being won handily until the stupid democrats said you can not bomb the enemy, you can't advance into North Vietnam, stay away from Cambodia, make nice to the villagers who harbor the enemy and whatever you do stay away from Hanoi.

As far as proxy wars with Iran, well Iran is a third or fourth rate military power which would fold even faster than Iraq's mighty army did.

This is not about land, proxy wars or any other nonsense, it is about the elimination of Israel and the installation of yet another failed Muslim state in its place for the glory of Allah and the pedophile Mohammad.

US policy - making things worse
Caroline, as usual thank you for information that we would never have had otherwise. Like a voice crying in the wilderness it must frustrate you that what seems so obvious is totally ignored.

Why this president thinks that something agreed to by the French would make for sound foreign policy is beyond me. If we are not clever enough to deal with the jackals of the world, we should stay home.

Giving a thief like Kofi Annan control of someone’s lunch money would be foolish, how then does it make sense to give him control over the fate of a nation.

If Bush gives everything the liberals want to them because he is afraid that they might act like spoiled children and throw a fit if they don’t get their way, how is this different that having elected Kerry?

Yes Israel has made some poor decisions and Israel should pay the price. Should that price be that to sustain Bush’s delusion that Lebanon is a real democracy, Israel must have her enemies strengthened.

Dear Anti-Partisan_Righty
So you say you are "sympathetic to the goals of the terrorists also -- return to the Arabs land that was stolen from them." Just to be clear, Islam is the most prolific land thieves in the history of mankind, by far. Islam started in a single city in Saudi Arabia. Over the next one thousand years, they killed, enslaved, castrated, and raped Christians (and others infidels) across the mediterranean. All of North Africa was Christian. So was modern day Lebanon, Syria, Turkey. They held most of Spain for a few hundred years and parts of France. They were all the way to Vienna in the West. I won't even bring up the peoples they conquered to the North and East.

Also, Jews were in places like Jerusalem for at least 3,500 years, long before Islam existed.

Finally, the Turks (i.e., the Ottoman Empire) sided with the German's in World War I and lost jurisdiction over lands, including what would be come the state of Israel. Finally, most of the mandate set aside for the Jews, went to Muslims, thus founding the state of Jordan. Even the 22 percent that remained became further carved up and given to Arabs. and the day the UN voted to make Israel a tiny state, multiple Arab states attacked. The Jews begged the local Arabs to stay to help build a democratic state and to live in peace.

About 600 Jews were then evicted from their homes across the Muslim world over the next few years, often losing whatever property they had. Moreover, the only reason so many Arabs came to the area where the Jews were setting up farms and businesses was for the jobs.

I could take your argument apart piece by piece on this historical record alone.

But let me ask you this:

Who is murdering women and children in India, France, Spain, Indonesia, the Philippians, Russia, England, Holland, America, and so many other countries in the last few years?

Hint: it's not the Jews.

Who murders their own mothers, daughters, sisters, and nieces for simply wanting to marry the wrong Muslim?

Hint: it's not the Jews.

Who wants to replace the liberal democracies of the West with Islamic law?

Hint: it's not the Jews.

Wake up, little Suzie.

Welcome newest marxist troll..
You've done a much better job than previous marxists at drawing people into arguement over your distorted views. Previous to your registration (on TownHall), most marxists have been ignored (for the most part) while you have indeed induced many people to respond to your anti-freedom / pro-fascist babble. Got to give you credit - you have succeeded in creating disruption and anxiety.

A reminder for conservatives:

"The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls." Trolls will stop at nothing to create disruption - ignoring them is the best step you can take as (like all Marxists) they have no conscience and emjoy a level of hate similar to that of Islamo-fascists.

Wer are ignoring something here
Israel wasn't winning their little expedition anyway. Hezbollah is not tied down to property, because it doesn't constitute a country. They were free to retreat, regroup and move wherever they liked while Israel floundered and looked ineffective. The war was a massive PR coup for Hezbollah. Were Israel to continue the conflict, it would only keep enhancing Hexbollah's standing and feed more casualty pictures to Al Jazeera. In sum: Israel was stalemated militarily and was losing the propaganda war hands down. Of more concern is the failure to address the question of the hostages and how (and if) Hezbollah is to be disarmed. Israel may be well served by studying the lessons to be learned here prior to thinking about going back in. No one here has high expectations for the UN force, so Israel needs to stay ready and plan on doing it better next time.

The UN and Annan are doing what they ALWAYS do and no one should be surprised. The Bush administration starting its cave to the political and international left is also beginning to be familiar. Is it possible the noisy leftist "intellectuals" in this country can do in Iraq what they did during VietNam? Only if we allow it. IF Bush loses his nerve and will NOT fight this war the way it needs to be fought then let's bring ALL our soldiers home, disarm them, and wait for the Islamofascists to decide it's OUR turn.


Give war a Chance
The Second World War was not won by the East or West. When U.S. Troops faced Russian Troops in Germany, they just stared at each other and the Generals, tired of war, stopped execution of the war. In Japan, there was a clear cut winning, and a clear cut loser.

The Russians are still at war with us, yes, through proxies but they are still at war. Until your enemy is totally defeated, then there is no peace, just an absence of war.

Israel will never have peace until the Islamic facists are defeated. We know who supports the terrorists but we are trusting people and want to see good. "Innocent" women and children died in the millions during the second world war.

Let's end the war by disarming the Islamic facist now.

Libertarian naivety……
Beware, there’s a right-wing civil libertarian amongst us – a particularly naive one when it comes to understanding the real dangers posed by Islamic radicalism, and whom CNN and the Islamic apologists have most likely duped. This person has false sense of historical facts, e.g., the reasons for the Crusades, the origin of the Jewish civilization, the roots of the Semitic people, the rise of Islam and the teachings in the Koran. Just study the unbiased (not written by left-wing / liberal academia) history of the ancient Middle East to get to the truth behind what’s happening today and why.

And whoever you are, don’t try to beguile me with your sanctimonious rhetoric. I wouldn’t understand what you're saying anyway.

proxy grief
Glick's unhappiness is understandable: she is an Israeli not an American. Israel's disappointing performance is a disaster for Israel. For us, though, it's a minor setback. We have many other assets to play worldwide. The larger game in the ME right now is to contain Iran and frustrate its plans to acquire nuclear weapons. In response to pressure on itself, Iran activated its shia assets in Iraq and hizbullah in Lebanon. On the whole, this has been working for Iran: without significant damage to itself, Iran has weakened the diplomatic coalition circling it, assumed leadership in the muslim world, and showing to all that Israeli military power is in practice overrated. To be sure, we - the U.S.A - will play others of our vast number of assets.

I am so tired
Of hearing the retoric about the poor women and children killed in Lebanon.
When your men fill your homes with weapons and fire them from your front yard what is to be expected?
Yes, war is bad, civilians get killed, why in the years Hezbollah was training and arming themselves were they not building shelters for their families? I'll tell you why, they wanted them slaughtered so the world would show outrage, this is just part of the trap the world has fallen into.
Remember Isreali women and children were killed also where were those pictures?
Until we quit fallin for the lefts propoganda no one is safe. Remember this and start digging your shelter they are coming.

Tulsaman....
Tulsaman writes: "Beware, there’s a right-wing civil libertarian amongst us – a particularly naive one when it comes to understanding the real dangers posed by Islamic radicalism, and whom CNN and the Islamic apologists have most likely duped."

You are soooo correct Tulsaman. I engaged this adolescent yesterday. When asked twice if he was anti-Jew, he changed the subject. The only answer he seems to be capable of is what the Jews did several thousand years ago... and that this is somehow relevant to today's conflict. He admitted he uses Al-CNN as a source and denegrated Fox News.

That should tell you all you need to know about the quality of his "facts."

My suggestion to my esteemed fellow conservative posters... unless you are really bored and just looking for some fun, you should ignore this "Righty's" posts. With him, it is: "Don't confuse me with the facts... my mind is made up!"

Fraudulent propaganda…..
The Islamic radicals are engaged in two types of “wars” – one with homicide-bombers and rockets, the other with propaganda. Much of the propaganda, with the help of the liberal MSM, is trumped-up lies.

Witness an example of photo fraud from a well-known wire service at: http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

Read My Lips
Israel has nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them. They have somewhere in the area of 400 nuclear weapons. Israel will insure Israel survives. Iran, Hezbullah, Sadr and all their allies will be attacked by Israel to save their nation and their people. Israelis have boarded their last trains to be shipped off to annihilation by anyone--there will be no more docility or bovinian behavior in terms of their survival--no more holocaust. This war is far from over and the storm clouds will get bigger and darker until they deliver their deluge. I predict Iran will not get the first shot in a nuclear exchange--in fact I doubt Israel will give them a shot at all.

condemnation of Israel
Since Israel is going to be condemned by the world why not just nuke Iran, destroy Syria and Lebanon and live in peace along with the condemnation of the rest of the world.

reality check
The only thing standing between Israel and extermination is the Bible. The US is your ally? Don't bet on it. A nation that is ready to cut and run from Iraq is not going to risk itself for Israel. Israel had best hope the Jewish prophets are correct in saying that Jehovah will keep Israel safe in their land. If not,I'm afraid-with the lefty Governments Israel has-Israel is going to have a very bad day.

reality check
The only thing standing between Israel and extermination is the Bible. The US is your ally? Don't bet on it. A nation that is ready to cut and run from Iraq is not going to risk itself for Israel. Israel had best hope the Jewish prophets are correct in saying that Jehovah will keep Israel safe in their land. If not,I'm afraid-with the lefty Governments Israel has-Israel is going to have a very bad day.

One Giant step for Iran
..one downhill step for the State of Israel.

The truce is a huge victory for Ahmadinejad.

We are at a pivotal point in all this Iran problem. It demands a pivotal set of actions.

Ahmadinejad in Iran is invoking the 12th Imam theory of Shia. He is exhorting Victory over the Jews or Heaven, as the end of the world looms. Methinks most Shia don't go along with that program.

This Persian Shia power grab can be stopped and the more moderate Shia come forth. But it demands a jolt.

It is the religious situation that needs that jolt.

Salt the earth 21st Century style, with atomic weapons and radioactivity as far as the missiles can fly. Give humanitarian warning, drag out the population and push them north.

Make the Shia see that Ahmadinejad is the false prophet. Either the Persian Mullahs who will either reel him back in or cede authority to thw Arab Shia in Najaf, Iraq.

It is not going to be any easier for Israel. They have to bite the bullet.

The squeeze is on. The Arab League Sunni states with probably post election Rgypt are pushing from the other side.

Both the Wah'hab and Ahmadinejad are looking for the credit which would come with the destruction of the Jewish state.

Let's rid ourselves of the false argument that atomic weapons are immoral. In one year or more Iran will have both weapons and a delivery system. If Ahmadinejad is still in power at that time MAD has no meaning as a policy.

For him, the options are victory or the apocalypse which will bring the 12th Imam.

Salting the earth is the only answer to forestall that.

O Israel
Again!!

O thou sword of the Lord, how long will it be ere thou be quiet? put up thyself into thy scabbard, rest, and be still.

How can it be quiet, seeing the Lord hath given it a charge against Ashkelon, and against the sea shore? there hath he appointed it. Jeremiah 47:6-7

Also thou shalt be cut down, O Madmen; the sword shall pursue thee. Jeremiah 48:2

Finish The Job, O Israel! Destroy Hizbolla and then turn your Sword upon Madmen in Tehran. The United Nations was created to betray you and American politicians cannot be trusted or depended upon. The True and Living God will be your deliverer.

Primus54
Anti_Partisan-Righty had me fooled when I first read his name, but like everything (s)he's written, (s)he couldn't even get his/her name right. The name was either chosen to obfuscate (Anti_Partisan-Righty, that means "to confuse", and I will add, "with untruth and rhetoric") or the name was chosen because he is no more adept at English than he is with recognizing facts and understanding truth.

As this person chose to write the pseudonym, Anti-Partisan_Righty, the term means that he is a right-leaning person against partisanship. The truth of the matter, as evidenced in his liberally errant postings, is that he is against those who he believes are partisan, right-leaning persons.

Primus54, I understand why you would want to ignore these people, but I learn so much from the responses of people who are educated in this area, such as Rugged Individualist, Colorado, and Celtic-Dragon, that I would hate to discourage them from writing.

Rugged individualist
I cannot remember who posted the following some days ago. But it was so powerful I repost it here. I only wish I had the name of the contributor to go along with this post.

ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ"
> >
> >By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)
> >
> >I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly
> discovered a terrible
> >truth - Europe died in Auschwitz.
> >
> >We killed six million Jews and replaced them with
> 20
> million Muslims. In
> >Auschwitz we burned a culture, rich in thought,
> creativity, and talent. We destroyed the
> >chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced
> great and wonderful people
> >who changed the world.
> >
> >The contribution of this people is felt in all
> areas
> of life: science, art
> >international trade, and above all, as the
> conscience
> of the world. These are
> >the people we burned.
> >
> >And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we
> wanted to prove to
> >ourselves that we were cured of the disease of
> racism, we opened our gates to 20
> >million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and
> ignorance, religious extremism
> >and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an
> unwillingness to work and
> >support their families with pride.
> >
> >They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into
> the third world, drowning
> >in filth and crime.
> >
> >Shut up in the apartments they receive free from
> the
> government, they plan
> >the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.
> >
> >And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture
> for fanatical hatred,
> >creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence
> for backwardness and
> >superstition.
> >
> >We have exchanged the pursuit of peace by the Jews
> of
> Europe and their
> >talent for hoping for a better future for their
> children, their determination
> >to cling to life because life is holy, for Muslims
> who pursue nothing but death, for Muslims
> >consumed by the desire for death for themselves ,
> our
> children, and
> >theirs.
> >
> >What a terrible mistake was made by miserable
> Europe.
>
g with the comment.

When Hitler started
making anti-jewish laws, the world stood idly by.
William Shirer was in Berlin when the jews were started on their one-way trek to extermination and I can't remember anything in his entire 2-volumn book about it.
Today we have instant news and we can hear and see the anti-jew legislation and we can see the world as it blames the jews for mid-east problems. And, again, we either sit idly by or actively aid and abet those who hate the jews.

Response to MorningCoffee
You wrote: "Primus54, I understand why you would want to ignore these people, but I learn so much from the responses of people who are educated in this area, such as Rugged Individualist, Colorado, and Celtic-Dragon, that I would hate to discourage them from writing."

You make a good point that is well taken. I would add "BrianR" and "debishop" to the list of great respondents.

BTW... if you check yesterday's Cal Thomas comments section... see "Righty's" 5:01 PM post to me. In it, you'll find his short biography. In fact, all his posts within that article are demonstrative of his strong anti-Jew or anti-Israel bias.

Anyway, you are correct in not stiffling or completely ignoring him and similar posters. What was that great line about keeping friends close, but enemies closer? The Godfather, maybe?

Nice chatting with you, MorningCoffee!

- Primus

Warrior
Israel is thought to have some 200 nuclear weapons, although nobody outside of Israel knows for sure. Israel seems to have adopted a triad-type deterrance strategy by adopting land, sea and air based strategic delivery platforms. The newest of these is the German built DOLPHIN class fast attack submarine. Three of these have been delivered to Israel and two are under preliminary sonstruction. If you would like to read more, read my blog article "Swimming With Dolphins" by clicking on my name above (shameless plug :-) )



NOTE TO ALL:

Anti-Partisan_Righty is here to argue and annoy. He is not interested in reasonable debate. Ignore the Koolaid drinker and we can go about our business.

Buck,
I believe it was Warrior who posted that.

Kidnapped or captured?
It doesn't matter. A country must defend its citizens; otherwise, it does its current citizens and future ones a diservice as they will only encourage more of the same. As in football, they will keep running the same play until someone proves that they can stop them.

To all:
Do stop by and check out Celtic Dragon's blog. There's a couple of great posts (the
aforementioned "Dolphins" and "Clausewitz, Israel and The New Primitives" among others) and a complete repost of Warrior's original post. (Warrior, quite the popular post you have there, man).

Lydia
Anti-Partisan: "You sound like God ordering the extermination of the Canaanites (again)"

Lydia: Anti-Partisan. You know that I am NOT surprised that you are whining about the first destruction of the Canaanite people who practiced a perverted sex cult which included the sacrifice of their babies and small children to their pagan god (Ba'al worship).

Please allow me to clarify your obvious confusion.

I only bring that up when people ignorant of history -- such as yourself -- insist that Muslims are ordered by their religion to kill people who practice a different religion.

They never offer any evidence for that -- they just keep repeating it like clones.

Now you actually brag about the Jews ORIGINATING the same practice to falsely blame on others ... 2000 years before Islam was even founded.

Human sacrifice was quite common nearly 4000 years -- as most of us learned by age 13 or so.

You posture as a Christian ... but you advocate genocide over conversion.

With friends like you, Jesus needs no enemies.




truth says
It is almost impossible to defeat a determined people defending their own land. May I invite the Israelis to elect me Prime Minister for six hours. I guarantee a determined people defending their own land will be eliminated from Planet Earth. Syria,Iran,and Lebanon will no longer be around to show you further grief.Then Mecca,Medina,and the Dome of the rock will receive their love note. There will be peace in the valley for several generations and a new Prime Minister can take my place at the end of the Day.

Peacekeepers
Caroline...Good analysis of the resolution.

Perhaps the next time Israel goes into battle, she should direct her aggressions toward any United Nations troops that may be deployed in the region. Like Hezbollah, Hamas, et al, the UN "army" has a reputation for pillaging and plundering property and subjugating/degrading (raping)
women. Also, they are neither controlled by nor responsible to any single nation.

Besides...They are much easier to target with those stylish blue helmets.

BTW- Since the U.S. continues to allow Kofi and his boys to headquarter in Manhattan, can we be considered as a state-sponsor of terrorism??

Colorado
Colorado: Hezbollah is being describes as an indigenous people fighting for their homeland,

Colorado claims Hesbollah has existed for "almost 60 years" --- actually only 25 or so.

Colorado also claims to be unaware that we are the primary arms supplier to Israel -- I am not making this up -- or that the current military actions in Lebanon have been called a proxy war between the US and Iran by such people as the esteemed conservative, Arnaud de Borchgrave, in both NewsMax and the Washington Times.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/8/7/135122.shtml

Colorado also repeats a particularly vile post from yesterday -- presumably accepted on blind faith -- that Mohamed was a pedophile.

"it is about the elimination of Israel and the installation of yet another failed Muslim state in its place for the glory of Allah and the pedophile Mohammad."

Shameful or merely gullible?












Anti--partisan reminds me of
the effete 'intellectuals' of another era. A very popular artist of the time rented a chimpanzee and put him in a room with various paints and a canvas. The resulting product was unveiled at a showing. The guests oohed and ahhed and discussed the bold strokes and the brilliant use of colors etc ad nauseum. Finally the artist broke the news to the guests that they were phoneys who knew nothing about art. The piece was done by a chimp.
Without blinking these 'intellectuals' declared the chimp to be a creative genius. There is a moral here somewhere, I'm sure.

Rugged Individualism
Rugged Individualism: Also, Jews were in places like Jerusalem for at least 3,500 years, long before Islam existed.

Pay attention. That's MY point. Jews got there by committing genocide, 2000 years befors Islam existed -- but we're told that Islam is the murderous religion. Some folks ask why I keep mentioning that, well, it's because historically (and Biblically)ignorant people keep bringing it up, not me.

Rugged: I could take your argument apart piece by piece on this historical record alone.

Not from what we see so far. And the issue today is your own barbarity -- your call to slaughter Arabs and seize their oil, because you seem to believe we did likewise to Germany and Japan.

Rugged: But let me ask you this.

Uhhh, no. First deal with what's already on the table, sport -- your call to attack Arabs and seize their oil -- especially your totally asinine claim that we did likewise to Japan and Germany.

I stand up for my positions. Be a man and do likewise, instead of repeating what you've already posted here.







Maybe the moral is
if you keep trying to convince a fool he is wrong you end up being as big a fool yourself.

celtic-dragon
celtic-dragon: Of more concern is the failure to address the question of the hostages and how (and if) Hezbollah is to be disarmed.

Does ANYBODY here read (or watch) the news.

Hostages were addressed -- the 2 or 4 (I forget) Israelis must be returned, the 9000 Lebanese have been deferred for the more permanent cease-fire process which was also part of the deal (at issue is how many are terrorists and how many are mere hostages).

Israel, of course, has always held about 50-100 times moe hostages than Lebanon has, if we simply look at the ratio of several previous hostage exchanges.

Hezbollah arms were also dealt with, somehat specified for the next round, somewhat deferred for the next round (my own reading of several accounts). Keep in mind, in case you haven't, this is an agreement, and Hezbollah needs to be part of it -- not Israel dictating the terms.


tulsaman
Tulsaman: Beware, there’s a right-wing civil libertarian

There is no such thing. That would be a total libertarian -- both civil and economic -- neither right nor left, both of which defend only partial liberty (civil OR economic.

Previously known as: CLASSICAL liberals, Old Right, Taft Republicans.

But I'm not sure why roughly 1/3 of many forums is devoted to me personally, instead of any actual issues. Okay I just lied. It's called "shoot the messenger."

tulsman: This person has false sense of historical facts, e.g., the reasons for the Crusades, the origin of the Jewish civilization, the roots of the Semitic people, the rise of Islam and the teachings in the Koran.

Don't take this personally, but that's kinda crazy.

I use the Bible -- which a lot of you folks obviously know notjing about -- as my source for the origins of Jewish civilization.

I'm the one who said Arabs are semitic also.

As for the Koran, I've spent a week asking people to quote for us the exact passages from the Koran -- still no takers. And when asked (and on my own), I have quoted extensively from both the Bible and the Koran.

Lotsa talkers here -- way too many useless personal attacks -- and very few doers.


Ricon
Ricon sez: BTW- Since the U.S. continues to allow Kofi and his boys to headquarter in Manhattan, can we be considered as a state-sponsor of terrorism??

(laughing)

It was that same UN which created Israel.

Some of us say the UN had no right to do so. And should not exist.

I say that too may self-proclaimed conservatives oppose the UN, or defend the UN, depending which positon serves their agenda of the moment.

Thanks for proving my point -- yet again.




MorningCoffee
MorningCoffee: As this person chose to write the pseudonym, Anti-Partisan_Righty, the term means that he is a right-leaning person against partisanship.

Yep -- but I am so very sorry. In a political forum, I assumed readers would know what "partisanship" means. My fault. Never assume.

MorningCoffee: The truth of the matter, as evidenced in his liberally errant postings, is that he is against those who he believes are partisan, right-leaning persons

No-o-o-o-o. As in "nonpartisan" -- which means not affilated with or involving a political party -- anti-partisan means opposed to political parties.

Left and right are not "partisan" depictions, they are "ideological" depictions (albeit muddled).

I adopted that name, mostly to deal with rather widespread ignorance here regarding the antiwar right. People like yourself assume I'm a lefty, so I try to help some people's apparent compulsion to label and pigeonhole people and ideas.

I've always opposed knee-jerk partisanship, people who cannot or will not think for themselves. Conformists to their own status quo.

REAL conservatives are more loyal to principles or party.
*William Buckley documents the Bush Administration as the biggest fiscal disaster since Johnson, and says any other nations leader with Bush's record would be forced to resign.
*Bruce Bartlett writes an entire book dicumenting that Bush has destroyed Reaganomics.
*Barry Goldwater defended gays in the military, and would have probably nuked Bush's ranch.

Partisan Republicans will abandon principle in a moment, because their party is bigger than their principles.

And that is why we see all this discussion of personality issues. Throughout human history, it's the knee-jerks always shooting the messengers.



Confused
It seems to me that most of the U. S. citizens of the Hebrew faith support the Democratic Party line, which, it seems to me, does not support Israel in the mid-East conflicts.

"Those poor people in Palestine"----"Those poor people in Lebanon"----"Those poor people being attacked by us in Iraq"-----"Who is Bush going to attack next, Iran?"-----are comments we have been hearing for a long time!!!

It appears to me that most of the U.S. citizens of the Hebrew faith are Democrats.

It appears to me that the majority of citizens who are Democrats, or Libs, or whatever label, and most of the media/newspapers---are against any and all actions taken by the U.S., Israel, Britain, etc. to fight terrorism.

Most who call themselves Democrats side with letting illegals come into the U.S. from anywhere. They side with the Hesbo against Israel.

They push the worthless UN for decisions when UN members consist of those countries which have attacked us as well as Israel and support the terrorists in all the Muslim countries.

Most of the Democrats are Bush haters.

The Dem philosophy seems to embrace in full the basic Communist/Socialist philosophy----- allowing "freebies" to the lazy and illegal and calling it helping the poor, handicapped & underpriviledged-----taking from the "rich" (all tax payers) and giving to the "poor".

Why would any "sane" legal U.S taxpaying citizen, especially those of the Jewish faith, embrace ANY of the above?

I do not understand why so many of our United States citizens are anti-United States!!!!!!!

Alarmed writes
I do not understand why so many of our United States citizens are so Anti-United States.

That is the $64.00 question. But maybe it has something with the majority of Americans born since 1945 being pampered and protected all their lives that they are nothing but overgrown emotionally immature spoiled brats?

Primus54
I just got back from reading the posts at Cal Thomas' article. I read it early yesterday, before the bulk of the discussion, and had not read your posts to APR. Quite the lenghty discussion. And you're right, brianR and debishop are also excellent respondents.

I agree with Celtic-Dragon that APR is not interested in debate (or truth or accuracy, for that matter). I do believe, though, that it is important to challenge the misinformation with facts.

As some of the regular posters have noted, we didn't lose the military battles in the Vietnam war, but we did lose the political battles and the battles for the will of the American people. Having lost to the disinformation crowd then, I don't think we have the luxury of ignoring them now. The stakes are much higher in this one.

And, as I noted earlier, I learn from these responses, as I'm sure others do. I appreciate others sharing their knowledge.





Primus54
Primus54: In it, you'll find his short biography. In fact, all his posts within that article are demonstrative of his strong anti-Jew or anti-Israel bias.

Nice slander job. Most people will never look, and will think my short bio supports your lie about an anti-Jew or anti-Israel bias. I'll repeat the bio below.

First, one sign of a partisan knee-jerk is that everyone who disagrees with them is biased.

It's a logical fallacy called ad hominem, or poisoning the well.

Second, I stand with anti-Zionist Jews who oppose the state of Israel. I'm trying to be charitable, but it seems pretty obvious from their coments --like yours here -- that most of the frequent posters don't even know there is such a thing as anti-Zionist Jews.

They are a subset of Orthodox Jews, which (for the uninformed) places them on the right. Yep, the anti-Zionist right -- apparently too complex for some to grasp.

Religiously, they believe the current state of Israel violates the Torah, because the Jewish Messiah has not yet appeared.

Politically, they are the ones who taught me the argument that the UN had no right to partition the creation of Israel. And they strongly oppose Israel's military agressiveness for being so deadly to Jews.

Also politically, they tend to be libertarian, and had a lot of influence in the early libertarian movement -- one reason libertarians are more reliable than conservatives (as a group) in opposing the existance of the UN.

Here's the bio I posted. Nobody had a right to ask, and nobody else has done so, but I enjoy contrasting my openness with the screeching of my attackers.







Lydia
From the book-Unveiling Islam

Written by two Muslim brothers,
Ergun Mehmet Caner:
and Emir Fthi Caner:
that escaped the teachings of Islam. And subsequently wrote this book. And are now under the death penalty leveled by Mullahs.

Chapter2-Muhammad The Militant Messenger. P.41

"When Muhammad was fifty, Khadija (his first wife) died. For twenty-five years, Muhammad had known one woman, who was the love of his life and his greatest supporter. Muhammad was, in fact, an exception in his culture; most men of high status took numerous wives. Only later did Muhammad have eleven other women as wives and concubines, the youngest of whom was NINE when they consummated their marriage."

This book will help anyone better understand the Qur'an and it's true meaning. It also refutes any and all the garbage that Anti- Partisan-Rightly is pushing. I won't waste my time with the nutcase!

I would urge all to buy the book!

truthseeker is a fraud
Nasrallah admitted from the beginning the purpose of kidnapping the soldiers. There is no secret here except that you are pro-terrorist and anti-Israel. And hyper partisan righty who gushes with liberal fundamentalism is right about one thing: this is indeed how Viet Nam ended; with the left wing torpedoing victory and ensuring carnage not before seen. The Kamer Rouge and the terrorists thank you and look forward to the day you hand them the rest of the world.

Lydia
Quotes me: I only bring that up when people ignorant of history -- such as yourself -- insist that Muslims are ordered by their religion to kill people who practice a different religion."

*Lydia: I never said Muslims are ordered by their religion to kill people who practice a different relgion.

I never said you did.

*Lydia: So, I'm sure you must be terribly confused.

Elemntary grammar. I said you are ignorant of history.

*Lydia: But I do know that Christians are NEVER permitted to kill for their God and Muslims are.

You're missing the point. SOME Christians believe that they can kill for your God -- the ones who killed abortion doctors are the most obvious.

SOME Muslims are just as deranged. I've been askling for quotes from the Quran for over a weeek now. Talk is cheap. I provide evidence. Where's yours.

*Lydia: If you knew about history you would know that there is no such thing as "Jihad" in the New Testament.

Never said there was. (I could have said "If you know how to read" -- but then I'd be sinking to your level).

*Lydia: It must have embarrassed you that I pointed out that you were sympathizing with a wicked civilization. I guess you will have to suffer the consequences of people who don't know much about history.

Hmm, perhaps you do have a reading problem. And -- like others in the Islamophobe Chorus, you ignore my reply entirely, and just keep talking about something else.

*Lydia: Since I have already cited from the distinguished Middle East scholar Efraim Karsh here on Townhall, and have read his book "Islamic Imperialism", your claim that I am ignorant of history is: ignorant.

Hmm ... if you knew I thought you are ignorant of history, then why did you deny knowing that just a few seconds earlier?

Sorry, if you think reading that one book makes you knowledgeable in history ... no further comment is needed by me.

But you display that ignorance yet again.

*Lydia: You are free to call God a murderer. I
won't stop you.

Never did that either -- and THAT is why you are ignorant of history -- and dishonest.

It's the Old Testament which clearly records God ordering the extinction of the Canaanites/Phoenicians and --- golly --- it's you who actually defended the God-ordained slaughter of non-believers.

*Lydia: The Jews fought the Canaanites legitimately because the Canaanites wickedly violated the most basic human principles and deserved punishment.

Bullsh**, you haven't named anything which was not common at that time.

The Jews committed genocide because God told them to -- and took their land -- and then STOPPED.

*Lydia: They didn't deserve to survive like Hitler didn't deserve to survive

Hitler committed armed agression. The Canaanites did not. On that basis, Jews were the Hitlers of their day -- per your chosen scenario.

*Lydia The Jews NEVER had a mission to take over the world for God, unlike Islam. Please, don't try to pretend that we don't know about Islam's quest to take over the world.

One more time .... I'm waiting for some evidence for your slandering of an entire religion.

So far, I see more justification for what I concluded about your previous post:

"You posture as a Christian ... but you advocate genocide over conversion.

"With friends like you, Jesus needs no enemies."



I reponsd to you. Any comments?











Primus54 (Anti-Partisan's bio)
Sorry, I forgot to include this.

Sorry also, but my personal bio (posted yesterday) was maliciously slandered here.

-----

None of your business -- deal with the issues, not the personalities.

But I'm a 64-year old semi-retired marketing consultant -- a right-wing libertarian (now small-l) who ran for state insurance commissioner on a platform of Medical Savings Accounts, was elected to a school board in Ohio after my organization defeated 8 consecutive school board levies. I was raised Lutheran, taught Sunday School, became an atheist (non-religious but not anti-religious).

All my quotes come from...Google.

----end insert


APR
Yes, APR, I understand what partisanship means. I think you completely missed the point of my comment, though. Reversing the position of the dash and underscore changes the meaning of the pseudonym. My comment meant that your rhetoric sounds more like the alternate spelling and not at all like the one that you use. Of course, your pseudonym is probably too nuanced for all us blinded partisans who couldn't possibly understand that there could be different opinions within the same political party, which explains why noone registered Republican would ever disagree with Mr Bush on his choice of Harriett Meyers (sp???), illegal immigration, over-spending, etc. (Read with sarcasm.)

I don't understand why you think you can win anyone to your point of view with such condescending, fragmented arguments. And please don't reiterate the ad hominem argument; you tend to invite that response.

BTW, go back to the Cal Thomas thread. Someone did post a response for your Quran quotes.




To: "alarmed"
Alarmed said

"Confused
It seems to me that most of the U. S. citizens of the Hebrew faith support the Democratic Party line, which, it seems to me, does not support Israel in the mid-East conflicts."

Congratulations for noticing.

As I explained elsewhere on this page, not all Jews support Israel -- for both religious and/or political reasons.

A few days ago, one of the Islamophobe Chorus
could not believe that Steven Spielberg made a movie which questioned the legitimacy of Israel. Duh.

This is not to imply that Spielberg is one of many anti-Zionist Jews -- simply that the issue of Israel's legitimacy is not all that controversial among non-Israeli Jews -- despite all the screeching you may see here by a few uninformed conservatives.











To: "alarmed"
Alarmed said

"Confused
It seems to me that most of the U. S. citizens of the Hebrew faith support the Democratic Party line, which, it seems to me, does not support Israel in the mid-East conflicts."

Congratulations for noticing.

As I explained elsewhere on this page, not all Jews support Israel -- for both religious and/or political reasons.

A few days ago, one of the Islamophobe Chorus
could not believe that Steven Spielberg made a movie which questioned the legitimacy of Israel. Duh.

This is not to imply that Spielberg is one of many anti-Zionist Jews -- simply that the issue of Israel's legitimacy is not all that controversial among non-Israeli Jews -- despite all the screeching you may see here by a few uninformed conservatives.











That man is a Fool
Sleep with dogs and you'll wake up with fleas.

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I just liked the sound of it and put it in.

movwater (another history lesson)
movwater quotes me: "You sound like God ordering the extermination of the Canaanites (again) -- because "a very large number of them" are sympathetic to the goals of the terrorists."

**movwater:Which only goes to show you that bad things can happen to you if you don't listen to God's orders.

God never spoke them. But you agree the Jews committed genocide to get their so-called homeland. Now to the history lesson.

Quotes me again: "As it happens, I happen to be be sympathetic to the goals of the terrorists also -- return to the Arabs land that was stolen from them. I've never killed anybody. I did strike somebody once, in the 7th grade."

movwater: Israel was not "Arabs land" until Moslem stole it by force in the 7th Century. How does that make Israel "Arab land"?

But you've already admitted the Jews committed genocide to get it. It was not Muslims who conquered Israel. And Arab Muslims were the majority population when Israel was created by the UN in 1948.

It was Assyrians who conquered ancient Israel -- Israel then being only one of two Jewish states. Assyrians were NEVER Muslims, and were the first nation to accept Christianity nation, founded in 33AD.

"Assyrians have practiced two religions throughout their history: Ashurism and Christianity. Ashurism was, of course, the first religion of the Assyrians. The very word Assyrian, in its Latin form, derives from the name of Ashur, the Assyrian god. Assyrians continued to practice Ashurism until 256 A.D, although by that time, most Assyrians had accepted Christianity. Indeed, Assyrians were the first nation to accept Christianity, and the Assyrian Church was founded in 33 A.D. by Thomas, Bortholemew and Thaddeus."

http://www.nineveh.com/whoarewe.htm

(Assyrians had adopted the Jewish God, but Jews then denied their religion to non-Hebrews, which is probably why the Assyrians, later called the Samaritans, became Christian.)

The ancient loss of Israel was largely caused by the Jewish people themselves -- which had divided into two separate nations. Solomon, perhaps the richest man in the world, had nevertheless built his temple by enslaving his own people (and others) - thereby causing the revolt after his death. Thus, when a divided Israel was invaded by Asssyrians, the other (larger) Jewish nation (Judah) stood by and allowed it to happen.
(I have all-Jewish sources for this, but let's see how the Islamophobe Chorus reacts.)

Anyhow -- acknowledged history allows no legitimate or moral basis for any Jewish claim to those lands -- at any time in human history.

As an aside - Solomon bever did cut that baby in half ... but that's what he did to his kingdom.




Moral Outrage
Yesterday, it was Buck who claimed Mohammed was a pedophile.

Today, Goshawk provides the source of this shameful and malicious bigotry. (See 5;24 PM)

Time for the aluminum foil hats.

Goshaw cites a book, written by two Muslim brothers, which claims Mohammed was a pedophile.

Shame on you. I feel dirty just having read it.

1) Did those two brothers personally witness the consummation of that marriage to a none year old.

2) If not, then what did they cite as their original source?

3) If they cited no original source, and you believed them, then you are even crazier than those who belive the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

4) And if Mohammed (a mere prophet) is a pedophile, then so is the Christian God. Based on common practice at the time, the Virgin Mary would have been between the ages of 12 to 15 when she was conceived with Christ -- as there is no record that she was so far outside the cultural norm.

5) Thus, based on the only KNOWN record of the time so far (the Bible), it is far more likely that God is a pedophile than Muhammed -- by current standards. Readers are requested to notice how carefully I phrased this paragraph -- because the Islamophobe Chorus will likely be lying for weeks about what I said here.

Finally, I hear a lot of whining about Muslims who do not denounce terrorism.

I'm now wondering how many readers here will publicly (in this forum) denounce the malicious and hate-filled claims made by the book titled Unveiling Islam.

The posting was directed to Lydia. What say you Lydia?





that explains it
Did I understand correctly that A.P. Righty is a semi-retired marketing consultant?

That explains why he/she/it is trying to sell everyone a load of bull--and so many are falling for it.

Being semi-retired also explains how he/she/it has hours a day to spend playing juvenile mind games on TH.

Pilgrim
>>>>"That explains why he/she/it is trying to sell everyone a load of bull--and so many are falling for it.

Does that mean you decline to denounce the vile claim that Mohammed was a pedophile?

movwater (cease-fire agreement)
He quotes me: "We drafted it. With France. Which has been in the news for several days."

**movwater: Actually, the one we "drafted with France" was not acceptable with France's client, Iran, so the "cheese eating, surrnder monkeys" crawfished on us, and the real was the NEW, Islamo-fascist friendly effort. Why am I not surprised?"

Because you don't know that an "agreement" means both parties must agree?

Here's your sign.


not a good picture
Calm down A. P. Righty.

Besides, the Lord created Sunday afternoons for meditation and sweet love, but when I scrolled the page it looked like you have been on this thing all day.

That probably speaks to the notion that you are an overweight slob sitting naked in front of your computer with a hand full of yourself, getting off on reading your own nonsense.

cease-fire sabotaged?
As reported right here an Townhall (currently on home page) and elsewhere ....

Israel's almost immediate betrayal of the cease-fire may have damaged the fragile cease-fire agreement.

to anyone
If anyone is interested I have a blog post on this subject. Click my name and check it ou if you would like to.

movwater
(sigh) I'll stay with this only because I have since read news reports on who drafted the cease-fire agreement.

"**movwater: 'Actually, the one we "drafted with France" was not acceptable with France's client, Iran, so the 'cheese eating, surrnder monkeys' crawfished on us, and the real was the NEW, Islamo-fascist friendly effort. Why am I not surprised?

my previous: "Because you don't know that an "agreement" means both parties must agree?"

**movwater: So you agree that the "Ceasefire" in question was not "drafted" by the US but by Iran, Syria and France.

HUH??? Both parties means Israel and Lebanon must agree -- or it ain't an agreement.

Here's your sign.

And news reports agree with my original comment -- the agreement was drafted by the US and France.

Quoting my previous: "Here's your sign."

movwater: Huh?

Sorry, it's a fairly well-known joke line by a comedian named Bill Engval -- hope I spelled it right -- intended to be polite.

You now have two of them.

Meanwhile -- do you accept or denounce the vile and unsupported claim that Mohammed was a pedophile?






Wow.
Here's a summary, as far as I can manage:

-I know history.
-You don't know history.
-Oh, yeah? I can quote you not knowing history.
-Well, I can quote you quoting me not knowing history and refute it.
-Stand back. I can quote you quoting me quote you that I don't know history. Wait a minute. Scratch that. You don't know history and you don't know your Bible.
-Mohammed was a pedophile.
-And you're an Islamophobe bigot.
-Why do we get sucked in by this guy.
-You people are ignorant of history, your Bible, and current events.
-Again we're sucked in; how does this keep happening?
-Here's some more quotes.
-Well here's some quotes of your quotes, and your quotes, frankly, are looney.
-My quotes are better than your quotes.
-You need to calm down, and you're probably a pervert
-Oh, no. The fragile cease fire.
-Yay! And, by the way, Mohammed's still a pervert.
-Do you have proof?

And on it goes, I'm sure.

Movwater
Nice work here on that documentation concerning the Pedophile..er I mean False Prophet Muhhamed. Have fun with A P Righty, because the rest of us have had enough of him.

movwater (now a memory lesson)
movwater: However, the Assyrians were not Arabs, so perhaps you might be kind enough to point out the relevance of your post above to the topic at hand

I responded to your falsehood that ancient Israel lost its land to Muslims. Here's what you said at 6:57:

"Israel was not 'Arabs land" until Moslem stole it by force in the 7th Century. How does that make Israel "Arab land"?

In fact, that same quote of yours is still in your own response.

You now have three signs in one day -- a possible record.






Well now..
Looks like my little post caused Anti-Partisan_Rightly to claim "Moral Outrage." But take note where his outrage is directed. In defense of his perverted false profit Muhammad! Never mind the 9 year old girl being raped and abused by this mentally ill perverted old man he calls a prophet.

His reaction causes me to believe that Anti- is indeed a Muslim, as some have thought on other posts. And notice how he immediately tries to turn us against each other? Wonder how he would react if I could post "That Cartoon" of Muhammad.

By the way Anti- do your own damn research. No one needs to 'Prove' anything to you!

Movwater:
Good post! Like I said before, I don't have the patience to bother with idiots like him.

Anti-Partisan to Lydia said:
"I only bring that up when people ignorant of history -- such as yourself -- insist that Muslims are ordered by their religion to kill people who practice a different religion.

They never offer any evidence for that -- they just keep repeating it like clones."

Here is your evidence requested:

Islam Allows:
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)

The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5).

"Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29)

"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

"murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).

"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).

"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).

"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).

"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22)

A.P.R.: Does this meet your requirements for killing (and also butchering) those of different religions?

movwater (???)
Old joke: Some total imbecile has stolen movwater's login and is posting things in his name.

Here's what he asks at 11:08

movwater: Okay, when are you going answer the question: if the Arab Moslems stole the Israeli's land, how does it make it "Arab Land"?

I answered it by correcting his falsehood. It was the Assyrians who conquered Israel -- non-Arab and non-Muslim.

Which he responded to (scroll back same message) -- and now he wants to know when I'll respond.

Sign #4 :-)

Nah -- nobody on earth can be THAT stupid. He must be drunk or high, so I'm now ignoring him.








Anti-Intellectual_Fraud
You have been completely discredited, so you ignore the evidence that you challenged people to find and then switch the subject. Maybe you haven't noticed that you are talking to people who actually have an education and access to books. Shoo! Go away. You are up past your bedtime and it shows.

Lydia -- still no answer
Sorry, kiddo, but I'm not reading you until you address the issue from half-a-day ago -- and stop changing the subject --- and stop lying about what I'e said.

Third request:

You posture as a Christian ... but you advocate genocide over conversion.

With friends like you, Jesus needs no enemies.

---

Plus your opening quote was dishonest -- shame on you.

Here's what I said at 5:59 --- BOTH paragraphs:

"You're missing the point. SOME Christians believe that they can kill for your God -- the ones who killed abortion doctors are the most obvious.

"SOME Muslims are just as deranged."














Lydia
If he is indeed a Muslim, or at least 'believes' they're vile crap. It would be impossible for him to condemn them.

celtic- dragon:
Discredited is right! Anything he or Phylo post I'll skip over.

Re; Mohammed's pedophilia
Looks like I missed all the action here today. Bummer.

However, for APR, who seems to want to defend Mohammed against the charge of pedophilia, when he married Ayesha she was 6 years old. Reportedly, she was his favorite wife.

Hope that helps.

Goshawk, RE: A-P _Righty
He claims to have been a Sunday school teacher at one time and as now an atheist. He seems to have some real anger issues with Christianity, and his postings are erratic. I'm trying to figure him out. If you guys want some other fun, read how I and Brian R take apart Tanabear over on the Bill O'Reilly forum. Tana still thinks George W was behind Sept 11. IMHO these conspiracy theories represent someform of mild to moderate paranoid delusion, but that is outside of my educational training.

Well, it looks like...
... I should have scrolled up through all the posts before writing, as I see movwater beat me to the punch with the pedophilia scoop on Mohammed.

However, one bit of new info I haven't seen here anywhere: I've read forensic psychological evaluations of Mohammed, and he was apparently a schizophrenic. He was certainly illiterate. His "visions" apparently occurred while he may well have been having epileptic seizures. Whether or not that is true, he had to dictate them to someone else to transcribe.

So, basically, this is a whole religion built around the delusional ramblings of an illiterate headcase.

How comforting.

cletic-dragon
Thanks I'll take a look at O'Reilly's forum.

BrianR
It is a fact and documented. The book I mentioned, Unveiling Islam, covers the subject throughly. During the time of his fits there where several scribes that also wrote down his ramblings as visions from Allah!

Islamophobes exposed! (film at 11)
Well, I have *finally* got the Islamophobes to reveal their true colors. More on that in a second.

Here is their next challenge: If Muslims are ordained by Allah to murder Jews, then how do we explain the following facts:

1) After the Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, it was the Muslims who allowed them back in the 7th century.

2) After the Crusaders expelled the Jews, it was the Muslims who eventually conquered the Crusaders and allowed the Jews back in.

-------

Now to the fun part. :-)

As I've said before, I have several quotes from the Quran which are exactly the opposite of the ones posted here.

The eventual point, which I said about ten days ago:

1) You can find anything you want in both the Bible and the Quran -- good and bad.

2) Anti-semites quote only the worst parts of the Bible.

3) As I predicted, Islamophobes quote only the worst parts of the Quran -- as I have FINALLY been able to show you, now that Lydia and Birdman have finally shown their true colors.

I shall be sending people to this page for weeks. The Islam-haters have posted only the bad parts as follows:

Lydia (who also advocates genocide) at 11:01.
Birdbrain, uhhh, BirdMAN at 11:13.

Now let's look at the good quotes from the Quran -- the quotes they have so hatefully and dishonestly withheld.

----
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom God doth know. Whatever you shall spend in the cause of God shall be repaid unto you and you shall not be treated unjustly." (8:60)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace do you (also) incline towards peace and trust in God: for He is the one that hears and knows (all things). Should they intend to deceive you verily God suffices you: He it is that has strengthened you with his aid and with (the company of) the believers." (8:61-62)

--------------------------------
Now the Quranic rules of fighting
---------------------------------

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you but do not agress; for God loves not agressors.
And slay them wherever you catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you slay them. Such is the reward
of those who suppress faith.
But if they cease God is Oft-Forgiving Most merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
The prohibited month for the prohibited month and so for all things prohibited there is the law of equality. If then anyone transgresses
the prohibition against you transgress you likewise against him. But fear God and know that God is with those who restrain themselves.
(2:190-194)

-----------------------
(the following verse is directed at polytheists, demanding tolerance of even them -- contrast that with Lydia's endorsement of genocide instead of conversion)

"Say: O you who reject Faith!
I worship not that which you worship
Nor will you worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which you have been wont to worship
Nor will you worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way and to me mine." (109:1-6)

------

(They are even prohibited from being overly harsh in their criticism -- also to polytheists)

"Revile not those whom they call upon besides God lest they out of spite revile God in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did." (6:108)

------------------

(one final one, regarding other monotheists)

"And dispute not with the People of the Book except with means better (than mere disputation) unless it be with those of them who inflict
wrong (and injury): but say 'We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).'" (29:46)

------------------------

PLEASE send your friends to this page. We need to spread this truth to the world. I am creating a blog which will help do so so.

-------------------

Reject the Jew-haters AND the Muslim-haters.

I starts right here and now. With you and me.





Anti-Panti is a liar
I just went back and read only a few of Anti-Partisan’s comments from yesterday. This is who you guys are talking to:

Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 4:38 AM Islamophobia uhhh, the London airline plot was uncovered on a tip from ... a Muslim……
So much for monolithic conspiracy theories.

And then in a bald-faced lie: Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 12:03 PM
(In response to deBishops statement that he dismiss the notion of “Islamic Fascism” as merely a “conspiracy theory,” because the London airline plot was thwarted by a tip from a Muslim.)
(I) Never said anything close to that.
Post at9:46 am

Next case of straight-up lying:

Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 4:38 AM
Why all the lies on the right? My guess, to bury the truth ... that 9/11 happened because of our support for Israel ... just as Pearl Harbor was caused by our supporting China in their war with Japan.


Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 9:46 AM
Implying that Japan actually had justification for attacking us (or China for that matter) is just too much.
I did no such thing. How shameful of you to say that I think the attack was justified

I quit reading his posts at that point, but no doubt this sample of his ethically-challenged ‘work’ is representative of how he operates. And before he bothers to attack, sure the first time he talks about Pearl Harbor he states that we ‘caused’ the attacks ourselves, and then he goes on to deny that he said it was justified, but that is semantics. If our support of China ‘caused’ Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor, our support of China ‘justified’ Japans bombing of Pearl Harbor. This guy is a lame little liar.

A-P_Righty
What you think Islam teaches is ultimately irrelevant. We know what the madrassa's are teaching, and it isn't the touchy-feely parts of the Qu'ran. Six centuries ago, you might have said the same thing for Christianity, but we matured as a faith and learned to get along with others. Islam has not had a Reformation type of evnet and has never really adopted tolerance and co-exsistance as a unified policy. Of course, Islam has no "Pope" or unifying leader to set doctrine. EVERYBODY IS FREE TO MAKE THEIR OWN "ISLAM"! Violent and hateful people are able to create a hateful and violent Islam. The pacific and secular Bosnians had a version of Islam that reflected their own attitudes. We are seeing alot more of the violent and hateful types right now, hence our own anger.

Gosh... Have I missed some fun!
Seems my friends here have had a field day with good, old "Righty".

Isn't it AMAZING how, once confronted with the "quotes" he kept begging for, he has magically disappeared???

Don't worry Righty... like always, when the "Sleeping Giant" finally awakens, you can rest peacefully... We adults always protect our kids, even when they are grossly in error or misbehave.

Now, put your toys away... and those silly "signs" you are always giving away; put on your jammies; brush your teeth and get in bed. Uncle Primus will be up in a few minutes to read you a story.

BrianR, Islamophobia
>>>>" However, one bit of new info I haven't seen here anywhere: I've read forensic psychological evaluations of Mohammed, and he was apparently a schizophrenic.

They did that to Goldwater also.

>>>>"He was certainly illiterate.

Yep. I just spent 10 minutes at Google, trying to find any evidence that Jesus was literate. Found nothing. Do you have anything solid?

>>>>" His "visions" apparently occurred while he may well have been having epileptic seizures.

Here's your sign.




celtic-dragon
>>>>"What you think Islam teaches is ultimately irrelevant.

Okay -- like Lydia calling for genocide?

Not an issue I care about -- now that I've exposed the hatred and the dishonesty of you hate-mongers for all the world too see.

First it's the Quran.

Then it's what they teach.

Then it's the Quran.

blah, blah, blah.

Here's your sign.


Anti-Panti
Have you guys noticed Anti-Panti's response to *every* point you make is to change the subject? You ask him about Mohammed, he talks about Jesus. You ask him about what muslims believe, he talks about what Lydia thinks. Classic.

Sloopy
I am the one that challenged him on Japan and its so-called justification for war. He refused to engage me or in any way aknowledge the historical evidence that Japan attacked us in response to our trade embargo after the invasion of China. He keeps spewing nonsense that we "supported" China and therefore we were attacked. He has never provided any documentation of this "support" in any form it may have taken, or any statement from the military government of Japan to indicate that this was the case. He is a fraud.

Celt,
went over to O'Reilly's. That was pretty funny. Make that scary.

Primus4: here's your sign.
****Primus 4: Isn't it AMAZING how, once confronted with the "quotes" he kept begging for, he has magically disappeared???

ROFLMAO. See 12:59, 16 minutes BEFORE you posted this.

***Primus4: Now, put your toys away... and those silly "signs" you are always giving away;

You get TWO signs!




Another thing. I love how Anti-Panti keeps insisting we must find something 'barbaric' in the Quran to justify this, to him, mysterious paranoia we all have about Islam (I don't know WHERE we come up with this stuff ^sarcasm^). As if we can't be allowed to just point to their ACTIONS to justify our problems with the 'religion of peace'.

Fraud boy
is still refusing to discuss anything I say, lol. The "sign thing" is showing some desperation. He knows it.

Cynewulf
Yeah. I am watching a special on the History Channel now about the Towers and the collapse. That stuff that Tana thinks was thermite was actually burning jetfuel that had poured down the elevator shafts. Amazing what supposed educated people will believe.

Yah, Celtic, like most leftists, he can't take the heat he himself generates. But wait....give 'em a few minutes to think of a new subject....he's coming....

AP_Righty; "Here's your sign"?
What does that mean? Is that like "Phylo out?" Are you really Phylo in disguise?

But I digress.

So they did a forensic psychiatric evaluation of Goldwater, too. Your point on that is exactly what? When people start killing in the name of Goldwater, I'll address the issue then.

As to Jesus, please point to the part of my comment where I mentioned that Jesus was literate; I can't seem to put my finger on it when I review what I wrote.

Perhaps it was an attempt to draw a simile between Jesus and Mohammed? If so, you missed my point. They key element was the word "delusional". I was, after all, discussing Mohammed's mental problems. However, for the sake of argument, let's assume that for you the key word is "illiterate". What does that have to do with anything, either?

Re: Anti Panti is a liar
Sloopy sez everything between the lines.

-------------------------

Next case of straight-up lying:

Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 4:38 AM
Why all the lies on the right? My guess, to bury the truth ... that 9/11 happened because of our support for Israel ... just as Pearl Harbor was caused by our supporting China in their war with Japan.


Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Saturday, August, 12, 2006 9:46 AM
Implying that Japan actually had justification for attacking us (or China for that matter) is just too much.
I did no such thing. How shameful of you to say that I think the attack was justified

--------------

If you give the finger to a bully, and he kills you ... the finger caused your murder ... but the murder is not justified.

THINK before you attack somebody.

Here's your sign.








Well, well, well....
Looks like I spoke too soon! Righty IS up past his bedtime.

Looks like it's time for a little lesson.

Righty... to put the proper tone into the following, try to imagine your favorite but stern college professor or high school history teacher, having finally grown weary of your tirades saying, "Okay, now just sit down, open your ears and close your mouth!"

This is really not very complicated. There are people out there who've ignored the "peaceful" teachings in the Qu'ran, and are killing Jews and infidels by any and all means at their disposal. These are not "good" Muslims or "good" people. They are "bad" people who would behead you without the slightest remorse. Nothing.... NOTHING short of your total submission to to their version of Islam is going to stop their jihad. NOTHING! And it matters not what ancient grudge they are using to justify their actions. They are waging this war TODAY... 2006!

The only thing that is going to stop them is your submission or THEIR DEATHS. If you are sympathetic to their cause, then by their own teachings, you need to go join them and fight for Allah. If not... if you value the freedoms you enjoy here, in the great, albeit imperfect United States, then you either need to fight for these freedoms; or support others who are doing the fighting; or get out of the way! But if your words support our enemies and you choose to fight against the U.S., then don't complain when patriots question your allegience or your opinions.

In summary, you are either with us (U.S.) or you are with the terrorists.

Thus ends the lesson.

Anti-Panti
In the context you were speaking in, you were justifying it. But Anti, why do you avoid your other lie??????

Anti-Panti
While we're at it, why do you avoid the subject of avoiding the subject?

Primus54
>>>>"But if your words support our enemies and you choose to fight against the U.S., then don't complain when patriots question your allegience or your opinions.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Samuel Johnson, Founder.

He didn;t mean all patriots -- only the phony ones.

>>>>"In summary, you are either with us (U.S.) or you are with the terrorists

Bullsh**

One more time: reject the Jew-haters AND the Muslim-haters.

Which part of that confuses you -- now that we have finally the Muslim-haters' true colors?

ver since 11:59, you guys (or gals) just keep adding more evidence. Thanks!





Hey Sloopy!
Give the old guy some time to respond. He's got two or three arguments going on at once, plus he needs to "Google" his way to Al Jazeera and Al-CNN for his next batch of "facts", heh, heh, heh....

Hey Sloopy!
Give the old guy some time to respond. He's got two or three arguments going on at once, plus he needs to "Google" his way to Al Jazeera and Al-CNN for his next batch of "facts", heh, heh, heh....

Primus54
>>>>"But if your words support our enemies and you choose to fight against the U.S., then don't complain when patriots question your allegience or your opinions.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Samuel Johnson, Founder.

He didn;t mean all patriots -- only the phony ones.

>>>>"In summary, you are either with us (U.S.) or you are with the terrorists

Bullsh**

One more time: reject the Jew-hatibng Muslims AND the Muslim-hating Jews and Christians.

Which part of that confuses you????

I could be wrong, but you will never convince me that my beloved America is dominated by Muslim-hating wack jobs.





deBaron did not say that you thought the attack was justified, by the way. He said you impied that the attack was justified. As you did.

Sloopy, Brian J
He's too busy playing with his metaphorical signs too actually be serious here. Brian-his childish little "sign" refers to a country song some years back that included redneck comedy routine about how stupid people should wear a sign, so that other people would be warned. I can't believe anyone would take this buffoon seriously...

Okay, Primus :)
Don't want to hog ALL the fun!

Patriotism
is also the motivation of a hero. I served this country with pride, and your last little outburst is making me question your fidelity.

KKK
Well, my mission is accomplished and I'm going to bed. These guys may be posting alibis until dawn.

Every cloud has a silver lining. And I am genuinely indebted to the Islamophobe Chorus.

I now have a better appreciation of how a turn-of-the-century Black felt, surrounded by Klansmen with a rope.

Many thanks to TownHall.com, for providing the forum where we have now all learned the truth about the Muslim-haters among us. Click a few of their ads in appreciation.

Again, please send your friends to this page. Tell them to scroll down to 11:59PM. It may take a week to get my blog up.






Hey, Celt.
Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever be able to take anything Tanabear says seriously after that showing.

Also, added another entry to the ol' blog (Airport Extravaganza). Check it out when you have a minute. You working on another entry? Also, you should check out Brian's fan mail; Mary Katharine Ham plugged his blog.

Oh, C'mon Righty....
You can do better than that last reply, can't you?

"Bullsh**" ??????????????

Guess somebody needs their mouth washed out with soap!

Oh, BTW, if Jews OR Christians OR Hindis OR Buddhists were trying to kill me and other Americans because they believed they were acting on the orders of their "God", I would kill them, too. Soooo... if this makes me "Anti-Muslim" or a "Muslim Hater" in your alternative universe... so be it.

Anyway, I'm bored with you now. Nighty-night, Righty!

Heidy Ho, Neighbors
It's late and Anti-Intellectual_Fraud is running in circles. I really need to practice my harp tomorrow so I'm off to bed. Have fun with our new and not so dear friend, lol!

Roger that , Cynewulf!
Thanks for the heads up!

I figured it out....
..."Anti-Panti" is suffering from what Mr. Shelby Steele refered to as "White Guilt."

All of his references have been to situations from "the turn of the century" on back for millennia. Never once has (s)he confronted us with answers to today's situations.

There's no assuaging that deeply held guilt.

Ahhhhh.
First,
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

then,
He didn;t mean all patriots -- only the phony ones.


then
"I could be wrong, but you will never convince me that my beloved America is dominated by Muslim-hating wack jobs,"


See what a WONDERFUL, LOVING, guy he is. First he denigrates patriotism. Then he implies that, no, REAL patriots are great. He goes on to prove his patriotism with his next oh so sincere statement. His beloved America (that can do no right). (NO, Anti-Panti, that wasn't at ALL out of place considering your other posts! Really! It was just so typical of your loving attitude.) But don't miss the fact that he is impling that you, Primus, are Not a patriot.

Cyne: Whaaat?
She did?

I gotta see this.

celtic-dragon
>>>>>He's too busy playing with his metaphorical signs too actually be serious here. Brian-his childish little "sign" refers to a country song some years back that included redneck comedy routine about how stupid people should wear a sign, so that other people would be warned

Wrong again. As I explain on this page, it is an ongoing current joke by Bill Engval, in the multiple-movies titled "Blue Collar Comedy Tour"

I believe it was the third one which Comedy Central broadcast last night.

Ready. Fire. Aim. Please ask before attacking.

>>>>"Patriotism is also the motivation of a hero. I served this country with pride, and your last little outburst is making me question your fidelity.

I am eternally grateful for your service to my beloved country.

But on this page, today, I must question whether you knew what you were fighting for.

My comments were *explicitly* directed at false patriots, and quoted one of our nation's founder.

As you have questioned MY fidelity, I will repeat here what I actually said, so nobody has to go looking for the truth behind your latest smear.

--- start

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Samuel Johnson, Founder.

He didn;t mean all patriots -- only the phony ones.

>>>>"In summary, you are either with us (U.S.) or you are with the terrorists

Bullsh**

One more time: reject the Jew-hatibng Muslims AND the Muslim-hating Jews and Christians.

Which part of that confuses you????

I could be wrong, but you will never convince me that my beloved America is dominated by Muslim-hating wack jobs.

---- end

may be confirmed at 1:58 AM
















KKK -- exaggeration?
*** See 2:22

Sloopy posts the quote I attributed to Samuel Johnson -- deletes Johnson's name -- then responds as if the words were mine.

*** See 2:20

Jimmy Carter falsely states I have never "confronted us" with solutions to today's situations.

One more time: reject the Jew-haters and the Muslim-haters. 11:59 PM

One more time: 9/11 was caused by our support for Israel, just as Pearl Harbor was caused by our support for China in its war with Japan. 1:06 AM, and every day for a week in various forums.

Feel free to disagree -- but let's not say it never happened -- which is dishonest.










movwater :-)
Quoting me ... "1) After the Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, it was the Muslims who allowed them back in the 7th century."

movwater: Wrong! The Romans merely destroyed Jerusalem

Couldn't even type; took me a while to stop laughing. :-)

Three signs on that one.


NOW to bed
Wanted to clarify:

I realize this page is not typical of the majority of good folks who post comments at TownHall.com

I apologize for my tone these past few days but, after a week of asking, I came to believe the muslim-haters had to be "baited" to finally provide the evidence we see here.

I now have my life and good humor back.


Anti -Panti
You have yet to respond to my posts.....Why do you lie? Isn't it difficult to maintain that attitude of superiority even while you are being caught lying? Or do your amazing feats of subjecting changing happen without your knowledge, leaving you blissfully ignorant of your own failures? You either have the attention span of a gnat and the intellect level of a well-trainded dog or you knowing lie and evade. I wonder which it is?

Err.. make that subject-changing

Sloopy
Sloopy: You have yet to respond to my posts

See 2:40 AM.

Here's your sign.

Anti-panti lies again
Anti-Partisan_Righty writes: Monday, August, 14, 2006 3:45 AM
Sloopy
Sloopy: You have yet to respond to my posts

See 2:40 AM.

Here's your sign.



sloopy writes: Monday, August, 14, 2006 1:46 AM
Anti-Panti
In the context you were speaking in, you were justifying it. But Anti, why do you avoid your other lie??????

By the way,
You keep promising to go to bed, then coming back 20or 30 minutes later. Is this because of a childish need to get in the last word? Are you hoping everyone else will be gone? Or just that everyone will have forgotten the subject and so not notice your usual tactics?

Here's your sign is said to someone who has just done something incredibly dumb in the comedy show that originated the phrase. Does it bother you to make smart-a** remarks like that and then immediately be proven wrong, thus be the one who should be receiving the remark yourself?

To Movwater
On a post yesterday, I wrote a quote I once heard:

"When a dog urinates on a fire hydrant, it is not commiting vandalism... it is just being a dog."

Our new friend, Righty, is purposely confusing "Muslim Haters" with anyone who feels the "terrorists" have got to go... As I said in a really late (or is that "early") post, my beef is with ANYONE who wants to commit acts of terror and tries to kill us on orders from "God" (aka, "Allah").

I don't need to "understand" why these people want to do this to us... they do and they are even nice enough to admit that is their purpose in life, and have proven it over and over in their actions of terror. At the most basic level of self preservation, they've told me all I need to know to decide exactly what must be done with them. It truly is "them" or "us".

The sooner people like Righty stop trying to find the escoteric "reasons" and wake up to the basics, the sooner we'll stop horsing around and bring this to the inevitable conclusion.

Unfortunately for Righty... I think he is the "dog" in the quote... he simply cannot be something he is not....

United States support?
If anyone goes back in time and takes a close look at America's support for Israel, it becomes clear that it has been confusing. There is no question that America sells Israel military hardware and technology. At the same time American administrations have constantly encouraged Israel to use restraint in defending itself.


The peace talks with Arafat resulted in Israel ceding ground to that filthy, homicidal little criminal. He responded by rejecting the deal brokered by America that would have given the Palestineans a state. Finally.


More recently, with American encouragement, Sharon withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank. Look at the result.


Now in Lebanon, America has collaborated with the UN and France, of all countries, in producing an agreement that humiliates Israel. It doesn't have a chance of restraining Hezbollah from mounting its terrorist attacks on the Jewish state.


I have to wonder. With a friend like America, does Israel need an enemy?

Lydia (S
-----START LYDIA

You wrote:
"You're missing the point. SOME Christians believe that they can kill for your God -- the ones who killed abortion doctors are the most obvious.


YOU missed the point again: ALL those who kill abortion doctors for God's sake ARE violating the word of God.

LOLOL...I love the way you twist other people's words then complain about them being twisted.

----END LYDIA

I'll do it again -- because you lied yet again.

I said those Christians are "deranged." - as were the Muslims who did the same thing.

I corrected your dishonest quote at 11:59 PM -- so you repeat it, making it now an intentional lie.

Fifth request fr a response:

"You posture as a Christian ... but you advocate genocide over conversion.

"With friends like you, Jesus needs no enemies."

And for lying a second time, with the evidence in plain sight ....

Here's your card.


Lydia advocates genocide
>>>>"LOLOLOL....Please post where I recommend genocide over conversion?

Finally noticed the question?

You advocated genocide at

You are hilarious.

Lydia advocates genocide
>>>>"LOLOLOL....Please post where I recommend genocide over conversion?

So glad you finally responded.

Well, we've already seen proof positive of your anti-Muslim bigotry -- emailed so far to roughtly 980 people on my own list, with a blog to follow, on the hatred and lies of of our Islamophobe Chorus. (12:59 AM)

So I guess the genocide should not have surprised anyone --- roughly 24 hours ago, at 1:59 PM on the 13th.

Or the obession with matters sexual.

"America is new Canaan with a new sex cult centered around idol worship of depraved hollywood low-life types ..."

"The Old Testament clearly states that the Jews were to "drive them out", and directed the Jews to kill those who refused. I'd say that was fair enough treatment for sexually depraved people."

You actually agree with me that God ordered the genocide of an entire society, for their beliefs> First you say the New Restament is different (which we all know). Then you actually defend that genocide -- while claiming that sexually depraved means human sacrifice.

"I am NOT surprised that you are whining about the first destruction of the Canaanite people who practiced a perverted sex cult which included the sacrifice of their babies and small children to their pagan god (Ba'al worship)."

Sex cults are NOT human sacrifice. Is this a skit on SNL? :-)

My response has been repeated. starting at 2:32 PM 8/13

"Now you actually brag about the Jews ORIGINATING the same practice you falsely blame on others ... 2000 years before Islam was even founded."

"Human sacrifice was quite common nearly 4000 years -- as most of us learned by age 13 or so."

"You posture as a Christian ... but you advocate genocide over conversion."

---

I had to repeat later that it was intended as a question.

Scanning over the page, we see hard proof of every liberal's favorite stereotype: A social conservative Christian bigot who repeatedly lies and advocates the genocidal destruction of a society for its beliefs -- instead of converting them.

Again, with friends like you, Jesus needs no enemies.

Though an atheist myself, I feel obliged to inform you that conversion is the more accepted approach to pagans ... or simply ignoring them ... unless you need their property for your Promised Land.

One more time: Why do you posture as a Christian ... while advocating genocide instead of conversion?



















You are hilarious.

Anti-Partisan_Righty...
Just decided to check these comment sections before retiring for the evening and find you have returned for more self-flagellation... gotta admire your dilligence.

You know, for a self-portrayed "atheist", you sure seem fixated on religious matters! I mean, after all, to an atheist, the words of various dieties is nothing but man-made fiction anyhow... right?

Just for fun, I copied and pasted several of your posts from yesterday and emailed them to an acquaintance of mine who happens to be an FBI profiler. He agreed with me that your "behavior" as evidenced by your written words strongly indicates a strong Muslim bias. And, like me, (and I suspect several of my fellow posters) your protestations of actually being a Muslim is highly suspect.

No conspiracy theory here... just an obvious conclusion drawn by the observations.

And, by the way, I can guarantee you a heck of a lot more than "980 people" on an email list got a chance to observe your "pro-Muslim" rants in action on this website!

To close, atheist or Muslim, I WILL pray for you tonight before retiring.


Skip - United States support?
Some thoughtful insights. Thanks.

In land ownership, the common law principle of Adverse Possession, defines how a title holder can lose rights to that property by default.
that property.

Basically, if my fence intrudes onto your property, and you don't protest for 20 years, then you have forfeited that property.

This is why, to some scholars, the Arab-Muslims have protested the stealing of their land for Israel by the UN from day one, and repeatedly thereafter.

In property rights law, they have never accepted Israel as the rightful possessor of that land, thus -- by our own laws -- they still own it.

And that's why they still fight.

When I just googled Adverse Possession, some very good, brief defintions were at the top if anyone wishes to pursue this principle further.










Belated Response to Anti-Partisan-Righty

Wow! I went to bed after my post of 08/13/06 11:13pm so I didn’t read you response of 08/14/06 12:59am until today. I never expected that response! I have no idea where it came from.

On Sunday, August, 13, 2006 2:32 PM you made a statement “… people ignorant of history … insist that Muslims are ordered by their religion to kill people who practice a different religion. They never offer any evidence for that -- they just keep repeating it like clones.”

I responded by citing chapters and verses from Islam’s Koran (Muslim Holy Book) as evidence about that very subject. Among those verses were these:

"When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way” (Koran 4:5). This sounds to me to be an order to kill anyone not Muslim; this is not just a suggestion. What do you think A.P.R.?

"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191) Again this sounds like an order not a suggestion.

"fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5);
"murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).

"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).

Kill, slay, murder, strike off the heads. All of these verses sound like commands that are expected to be obeyed; and all these actions result in the death of the non-Muslim victim. That last verse (Koran 9:123) is speaking of prisoners of war. Do any of these verses even approach the civil interpretation you ascribe to your list of verses?

My reward for citing these verses is you’re calling me an “Islamophobe” and referred to me as “Birdbrain”. You said “the never offer any evidence…” I quoted that evidence using Mohammed’s words not my own; and yet you call me an “Islamophobe”. A phobe fears or dreads something. I do not fear nor dread Islam, I fear God; for followers of Islam may kill me; but God, when this body is dead can destroy the soul.

Imagine going from ‘never any evidence’ to ‘you are an Islamophobe’ instantly. Did I miss something? I am still dizzy from the change in direction.

Perhaps for your unmitigated defense of Islam you should properly be referred to as an “Islamophile” or a lover of Islam. Perhaps you are already a Muslim in sheep’s clothing.

You wanted evidence offered. I gave you that evidence. I quoted from their book. I used their words. The thing is that the Islamic terrorists use these same verses to justify their barbaric deeds. They do not use the verses you cited. Based on these verses I would expect a sensible and honest individual to refer to the Muslims as “Kafir-o-phobes”; but according to you I am the “Islamophobe” merely for quoting their book.

Now you can grow up, accept that evidence has been provided, and apologize to me for your slander of my character, vilification of my name, and to all others across the board for you overbearing pomposity.

But I really doubt any part of that last sentence will happen.

BTW I can not find Lydia proposing genocide over conversion on 08/13/06 1:59pm. Do you make these things up on the fly?

Primus54
>>>>>>"You know, for a self-portrayed "atheist", you sure seem fixated on religious matters! I mean, after all, to an atheist, the words of various dieties is nothing but man-made fiction anyhow... right?"

Mostly. But I simply document the errors and repeated lies about what those words actually are .. as you have seen.

>>>>>"Just for fun, I copied and pasted several of your posts from yesterday and emailed them to an acquaintance of mine who happens to be an FBI profiler. He agreed with me that your "behavior" as evidenced by your written words strongly indicates a strong Muslim bias.

Did you send him this:

"Reject the Jew-haters AND the Muslim-haters."

Or this:

"1) You can find anything you want in both the Bible and the Quran -- good and bad.

"2) Anti-semites quote only the worst parts of the Bible.

"3) As I predicted, Islamophobes quote only the worst parts of the Quran -- as I have FINALLY been able to show you, now that Lydia and Birdman have finally shown their true colors.

"Lydia (who also advocates genocide) at 11:01.
Birdbrain, uhhh, BirdMAN at 11:13."

Here's your card.

In other words again, the only way to lack bias is to proclaim a bias for Judeo-Christianity.

According to the FBI.

Feel free to send a copy to me at the email address below.

---

>>>>>>"And, by the way, I can guarantee you a heck of a lot more than "980 people" on an email list got a chance to observe your "pro-Muslim" rants in action on this website!

I hope so. When my blog opens, I expect even higher traffic. If the op-ed gets typical sales, then it will be read by millions, all across the country.

If anyone wants to receive the first blog release, on Monday a week from today, please email to mail@BoiseWebs.net.


Anti-Partisan_Righty...
A.P.R.: "Mostly. But I simply document the errors and repeated lies about what those words actually are .. as you have seen."

Yes, yes. We have all seen who the prime prevaricator is... and his name is "Anti-Partisan_Righty."!

Sleep well, Righty! Good luck on your blog!

Birdman
>>>>>"Wow! I went to bed after my post of 08/13/06 11:13pm so I didn’t read you response of 08/14/06 12:59am until today. I never expected that response! I have no idea where it came from."

Sorry, you and Lydia were ssndbagged into revealing your bigotry. It was intentional.

I wanted everyone here to see the truth.

And they did.

I had been repeating for a week ... over and over .. that the bigots quote only the bad stuff .. when we can find both good and bad in both holy books.

So you prove me right ... and now you're upset .... and (incredibly) repeat the same vile and distorted, one-side version of another faith's holy book.

Anti-Islamic is no different than anti-semitic.

This is not a competition. There are no favorite teams.





As long as you guys are still here ....
I got home from work, and was stunned to see how many posts and attacks had been posted the following day. So one more observation on the column.

>>>>>"The resolution makes absolutely no mention of either Syria or Iran, without whose support Hizbullah could neither exist nor wage an illegal war against Israel."

Does it mention the Unired states and the UN ... without whose support "modern" Israel would have NEVER existed.

>>>>"the resolution treats as equivalent Hizbullah's illegal aggression against Israel and Israel's legitimate military actions taken in defense of its sovereign territory"

Under the centuries old common law principle of Adverse Possession -- a fundamental principle of property rights -- Israel cannot claim to have any sovereign territory. None at all.

Aa a rough analogy -- it's like using eminent domain to seize and level a residential neighborhood, so that Donald Trump can build a private mansion.






168 post and here is my one
I agree with Gurky. I do not believe WWII has ended. As I percieve it, We are still in war with Russia.
The base true enemies we have today are France, Russia and China. They all have their different reasons, but understand they are at war against freedom. We defeated the USSR, but the people that ran that system are still there and smarting from the humilation of that defeat. If you look closely at Russia, it is returning to it's old ways. The Russians have convinced the Chinese government that it has a place in this world, a world without the USA looking over their shoulder. France having bad experiences with war throughout it's history has come to the cultural conclusion that talk is the solution. Being that they are enlightened in this aspect, they sabotage the only super power in all means so they can take credit for leading the world to peace.
As for North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Cuba..etc they are merely pawns of the War. We all know that those countries sell their weapon systems to the pawns. Can we not also assume they expect those weapons to be used? If that is the case to whom did they expect the weapons to be used against. I doubt the local population can amount an attack that those weapons systems would be necessary. Russia could not compete with us head to head of developing weapons systems, so they have figured out away to finance their weapon systems and seeing how well they do against the USA.

I see it as Russia and China are having war games with the USA without the cost or needing to go to war to judge the effectiveness of their weapon systems. N Korea in effect is just another pawn for the Chinese.
There is another aspect as how Russia, China and France percieve the pawns. Not only are the pawns dying for them against the USA, but the oil for food scandal at the UN just verifies the arguement that those countries have no good will toward their pawns. By selling weapons to Saddam for oil, not only defeated the efforts of the embargo and armed Sadam. But ensured the opression of the Iraqies. By keeping Sadam in power they were endorsing Sadam behavior towards the people of Iraq. The fact that they wanted to force Iraqies to pay the debt Sadam owes for making illegal deals not on the behalf of the Iraqi people is a statement that Russia, China and France see iraqi not as equal human beings but of a lessor race.
We are fighting a war at taxpayers expense, lives of our citizens, while those we are fighting...the true enemies are just developing new weapons systems at the monetary and death expense of the pawns. They got it good.
That is the reality as I percieve of the true war. A war that quite obviously even Conservatives don't want to engage in outside the current rules.
As far as the Muslims, ya got to kill a few good cells to rid the body the cancer. I feel sad to come to this conclusion, but we have to hit the Muslim world so hard that those who are left will ban the thought of and teachings that impose them the will to attack us. We need to seperate Russia, China and France of their pawns. We have to scare the pawns not to deal with our enemies. Make the Cost way to high. Do I mean Nuclear? yes. I mean hit every military operation on the nuclear level. Use massive fire power to take out government opposition and schools of hate. Eliminate all who choose to oppress their people and manipulate them to kill us. Just absolutely scare them that they will never concieve or allow someone to be harbored by them to attack us ever again. Then and only then will radical islam will dissapate. Then we will have to deal with Russia, China and France.
In my opinion, France is dead water. Their economy is going to implode in about 20 years. Without the support of other countries they are nothing. China as it continues toward free market, it may take a few generations but it is likely if we take a few national ventures with them to explore our solar system that they will become an ally. Russia is a problem. They are corrupt and falling back into what they were. Putnin, or the next Putnin I believe will find away to justify to his people the noble cause of their righteous place in the world and to destroy the evil USA.
In Conclusion the real war is war of elites against the masses. The USA represents the masses, or also called free people. Russia, France and China represent the elites. It is their privilege and right as being better then the masses to rule them. It is that simple, all the rest is just the fodder that comes with it.

Why did we agree with this?
Why did we support this piece of crap?

In my view, anything other than destruction -- or at least neutralization -- of Hezbollah is an Israeli (and Anerican) loss. In fact, their getting behind any solution that guaranteed the continued existence and survival of Hezbollah is a terrible defeat for the Bush Administration and its war on terror and a major mistake on that Administration's part. I would think that if you're seriously conducting a war on terror, when a terrorist organization gets fully engaged, you couldn't opt for _anything_ other than that organization's unequivocal defeat.

movwater
**movwater says
Perhaps if Christians were highjacking airplanes and flying them into buildings because of something they read in First Corinthians,

Bizarre. It's because we (the West) stole their land.

**movwater
or if Jews were strapping on Semtex and killing themselves and innocent woman and children in a cush-cush parlor and stating on their pre-suicide that something they read in Deuteronomy triggered the urge, then perhaps I might agree with analysis.

Here's your sign.

Quotes from the Old Testament have always been provided for the same reason -- to complete the full truth: Israel has not had any moral right to its current lands ... at any time in human history.

To support hat conclusion, it is this necessary to document facts about both ancient and modern Israel ... the first created by genocide; the second created by the UN, on lands with a majority Muslim population.

1) Ancient Palestine/Israel/Judea resulted from the genocide and plundering of the Canaanites/Phoenicians. "The Promised Land" lasted a mere 400 years -- half that time as tweo separate nations following the revolt against Solomon for enslaving his own people to build his Temple.

2) Thus the sunccessful conquest of Israel was caused by internal corruption -- as the much large, southern Jewish state (Judeah) allowed their fellow Jews to be killed and expelled, (The 10 Lost Tribes).

3) The current state of Israel was created by the UN, on lands then having a majority Muslim population. Israel promptly declared itself a democracy -- whule denying voting rights to the majority of its inhabitants. This is the moral equivalent of the UN partitioning the entire US Southwest, and returning it to Mexico,

4) Some have sought to justify this immoral land grab by the UN (as proxy for The West). They argue that Israel is entitled to the return of its ancient homeland -- but they had no moral right to THAT either.









Quotes from the Old Testament have angered the Islamophobe chorus for two reasons.

1) They kept denying that the OT God is a vengeful God -- as God himself proclaims within the Ten Commandments verses -- as God's reason to punish unto the fourth generation everyone who rejects him.

2) While parts of both the Bible and the Quran BOTH show commands to kill those of other faiths ... I have yet to see the Quran order the mass slaughter of an entire society (Canaanites/Phoenicians) as we see the OT God commanding ... not can I recall anyone other than ancient Jews to have done such a thing, to plunder and slaughter for a Promised Land.

3)






Unfortunately for your side, Jews and Christians don't appear driven to murder and suicide by their "Good Book", unlike your buddies the Islamo-fascist terrorists.

or if Jews were strapping on Semtex and killing themselves and innocent woman and children in a cush-cush parlor and stating on their pre-suicide that something they read in Deuteronomy triggered the urge, then perhaps I might agree with analysis. Unfortunately for your side, Jews and Christians don't appear driven to murder and suicide by their "Good Book", unlike your buddies the Islamo-fascist terrorists.

movwater" FDR & Pearl Harbor
Except for today's Muslim-haters, conservatives have traditionally

**movwater sez
Pearl Harbor was "all about oil." We had it and refused to sell to the Japs in order that they might be better able to murder Chinese and invade the Dutch East Indies and French Indo-China.

There was no oil embargo. There was a legally mandated arms embargo against both Japan and China, to insure our neutrality, which FDR violated -- this inviting Pearl Harbor.

Rather lengthy cites follow, after a brief summary of the what actually happened. The cites are scholarly history, so I'll put them at the verey end to support my summary.

In fairness, movwater at least admits what he's been denying for over a week ...we did take sides in a war we otherwise had notning to do with -- as we are doing now --- which caused a sneak attack on our soil -- as we saw on 9/11.

The parallels are ominous --- between FDR and GWB. In different ways, both sought to increase presidential power in defiance of Congresss. Both sneak attacks on American soil were caused by presidential blundering -- by BOTH parties --- the same blundering that caused the following tragic outcomes.

1) In our war with Japan, despite the tragic loss of both lives and treasure, we gained ... absolutely nothing. How does one "win" a war that we never needed to be in?

2) In Korea, despite the tragic loss of both lives and treaure, we gained ... absolutely nothing. How does one "win" a war that we never needed to be in?

3) Ditto VietNam.

4) Ditto Iraq.

Pearl-Harbor: Short version.

After WWI, seeking a return to America's historic neutrality, Congress had passed a series of neutrality acts -- severely restrictinbg Presidential action in any war between two or more countries.

This is some of the best legislation ever passed -- restoring Washington's warning about entangling alliances. For all such wars, the President was legally required to do all of the following.

1) Adopt strict neutrality, as evidenced by al the following.

2) Countries defined as "belligerent" (possible future wars), would haveto pay cash for any and all purchases in the United states, and transport the goods home in their own ships.

3) Declare an arms embargo against both sides, and all parties, engaged in war -- along with a freeze on all loans and aid until the war ended.

Roosevelt defied Congress, broke the law, and provided substantial aid -- both arms and money -- to China. Thus becoming an ally of China, and inviting Pearl Harbor.

In principle, identical to the cause of 9/11

By 1937, FDR had gone bonkers, providing financing and directly training and equpping China's air force.

We weree helping China build an air force to use against Japan -- but the Islamophobes angrily deny this could have caused Japan to attack Pearl Harbor ... an attack which leveled the playing field that FDR had illegally tilted.

Historically, as most of us know, conservatives have been eager to blame FDR for causing WWII -- because it was the war which ended the depression, not the New Deal.

Ironically, the Islamophobes are now the first American conservatives (as a group) to defend FDR.

Following are both direct cites and summaries, The symmaries are from InfoPlease. The scholary cites arte listed and linked, for anyone who wishes to read further -- or to confirm my FDR summary above.

------

There were two Sino-Japanese Wars, with several battles in between. Think Middle-East and you've got it.

Their first war (1895-1895) was for the control of Korea. Japan won that one. The treaty obligated China to pay cash reparations. Japan received control over Taiwan.

Their Second War (1937-1945), which also led to WWII, was for control of the Chinese mainland. Japan was again the aggressor. China refused to declare war, which would have exposed the military aid being provided by the donor nations (including the United States), an often secret and always illegal violation of neutrality.

The following is from "Study of Roosevelt's Path to Pearl Harbor Debunks Popular Historical Myths" -- as published by the scholarly Journal of Historical Review.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n2p25_Bishop.html

"With help from the mass media and a community of "court historians," Americans widely accept this portrayal of the conflict as a struggle between angels and devils. Over the years, though, revisionist historians such as Charles Beard, Harry Elmer Barnes, John Toland and John Costello have thoroughly discredited this feel-good establishment account.

"Among the facts of "inconvenient history" cited by revisionists are President Franklin Roosevelt's threats and ultimatums to Japan, the tightening US trade embargo of Japan, unlawful US aid to Japan's enemies, and American foreknowledge of an imminent Japanese attack against US bases some time in early December 1941 based on a reading of Japan's secret military and diplomatic codes." ...

"The traditional view of why America entered World War II is a myth. Neither isolationist nor truly neutral, President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his administration forced Germany and Japan to go to war with us. Why Roosevelt did so is another -- and an enthralling -- question."

"In the mid-1930s, Congress had passed a series of neutrality acts, requiring belligerent countries to pay cash for whatever they bought in the States and to ship such goods in their own vessels (the cash-and-carry principle) -- and requiring the president, when two foreign countries were in a state of war, to declare an arms embargo. Since Japan could produce its own weapons, however, and China could not, having to make purchases overseas, an embargo would hurt China more than it would hurt Japan. So Roosevelt made a move that was not a move. He decided that he would "find" no war. He would wink at the sale of arms to China."

"Roosevelt's phony neutrality and his illicit aid to China against Japan foreshadowed his circumventions of the neutrality laws in aiding Britain against Germany. Indeed, the campaign to inflame emotions against Japan over the China war served as a general precursor to America's propaganda war against Germany."

"As early as 1937, America's willful violations of neutrality extended to the financing of China's war against Japan, and the training and equipping of China's air force. (See also "Roosevelt's Secret Pre-War Plan to Bomb Japan," Winter 1991-92 Journal.) As Thompson explains (p. 33):

"Three events, each out of the spring of 1937, cast doubt on America's true neutrality. The Chinese government had begun to send presents to American officials, especially to President Roosevelt. The US Treasury had begun to buy Chinese silver, granting China a kind of foreign aid. And the Chinese government had begun to pay money to an American pilot, Claire Chennault. His job was to reorganize the Chinese air force; and although he was retired from the US Army Air Corps, he had plenty of contacts in Washington. In time, he would make full use of those contacts."

"Another route used by the western powers to supply Japan's enemies in China was an overland road from Rangoon in Burma. The tremendous cost of maintaining this supply line were secured at a meeting between US Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr., and Chinese finance minister H.H. Kung. They agreed that the United States would purchase Chinese silver and allow for a series of foreign exchange loans to China, which would maintain the flow of military supplies to China. Initial objections to this violation of American neutrality by the US State Department were overridden by President Roosevelt."

"Numerous other Americans, serving as unofficial agents of China, encouraged further US aid and stridently opposed Japanese interests. Among them, Thompson points out (p. 93), was none other than John Foster Dulles, who would later serve as President Eisenhower's ardently anti-Communist Secretary of State"

There's a lot more.

Here's the link.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n2p25_Bishop.html














Re: The Taming of the Jew
"There was no oil embargo."

As there should have been. There was no International mandate that the US must sell oil to its enemy. If an oil embargo was a "cause celebre" for starting a war, we should have declared war on your buddies the Arabs in 1973.

"There was a legally mandated arms embargo against both Japan and China, to insure our neutrality, which FDR violated -- this inviting Pearl Harbor."

As I recall, we were intelligently not party to the League of Nations. Neither were the Japs, who walked over the Battleship Treaty limitations (which they were violating with their Yamato Class of Super Battleships - thank God they didn't use the money and resources they wasted on those two relics of another age to build a half dozen additional aircraft carriers) and the Lytton Report (which pointed out Japans illegal invasion of China). In fact there was no "legally mandated arms embargo against both Japan and China". The League of Nations was by this time already a failure ala the UN today.

As for the oil embargo, that was a mistake, that had the Japs bargained in "good faith" could have been adjusted by negotiation.

"In Asia, Japan remained one of the largest trading partners of the U.S., while the Emperor's Imperial Army devastated China's vast territory. Following the Japanese army's move into Indochina in the summer of 1941, the U.S. 'accidentally' initiated an oil embargo against Japan.

"This 'mistake' was inadvertently made by lower-level bureaucrats who went ahead with a total stoppage of oil shipments to Japan, when FDR meant only a partial embargo. Only after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor did the U.S. have no choice but to declare war on both Japan and Germany. Thus the process of the war in Europe was hastened by events in Asia."

As for Japan and China, a quick look at the total WWII casualties might indicate what the Japanese calle war was actually genocide to degree that was 5 time that of the holcaust.

"When the guns finally fell silent across Asia, 35 million Chinese had died, along with 27 million Russians, 10 million Germans, 3 million Japanese, 0.87 million French, 0.76 million British, and 0.6 million Americans. The way people were killed during WWII, however, reveals some significant differences from previous conflicts. Whereas military operations in Europe were far more effective and destructive, they were also fought between two more or less equally equipped and determined sides. The Germans' relatively high casualty figure (10 million in six years) testifies to the severity of the war. By contrast, Japan's aggression against China was very much a one-sided slaughter with the Chinese viewed as easy prey. The huge difference between the Chinese and Japanese casualties clearly indicates the asymmetry."

Like your pals, the Islamofascists, the Japs didn't understand the concept of a "Just War", nor did they exercise a "chivalric code" towards either captured combatants nor occupied civilians.

With regards to the non-existent arms embargo, it should have been directed at the belligerent, Japan, only and not China:

"The Chinese government asked the League of Nations for help, but the long voyage around the world by sailing ship for League officials to investigate the matter themselves delayed matters. When they arrived, the officials were confronted with Chinese assertions that the Japanese had invaded unlawfully, while the Japanese claimed they were acting to keep peace in the area. Despite Japan's high standing in the League, the Lytton Report declared Japan to be in the wrong and demanded Manchuria be returned to the Chinese. However, before the report was voted upon by the Assembly, Japan announced intentions to invade more of China. When the report passed 42-1 in the Assembly in 1933 (only Japan voted against), Japan withdrew from the League.

"According to the Covenant of the League of Nations, the League should have now placed economic sanctions against Japan, or gathered an army together and declared war against it. However, neither happened. Economic sanctions had been rendered almost useless due to the United States Congress voting against being part of the League, despite Woodrow Wilson's keen involvement in the drawing up of the Treaty of Versailles, and his wish for America to join the League. Any economic sanctions the League now placed on its member states would be fairly pointless, as the state barred from trading with other member states could simply turn and trade with America."

Re: An unmitigated disaster
"In fairness, movwater at least admits what he's been denying for over a week ...we did take sides in a war we otherwise had notning to do with -- as we are doing now --- which caused a sneak attack on our soil -- as we saw on 9/11."

We didn't take sides until after the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor without the curtesy of a declaration of war. Of course, they did the same to Russian Pacific Fleet at Port Arthur in 1904.

"After failing to negotiate a favorable agreement with Russia, Japan sent an ultimatum on 31 December 1903 and severed diplomatic relations on 6 February 1904. Three hours prior to the ultimatum being received by the Russian Government, Japan attacked the Russian Navy at Port Arthur. Both sides issued a declaration of war on 10 February. Under international law, Japan's attack was not considered a surprise attack, because of the ultimatum. However, after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, the 1904 attack on Port Arthur was frequently cited to substantiate an alleged Japanese penchant for surprise attacks."

"Alleged Japanese penchant for surprise attacks." - Who wrote this tripe, Pat Buchanan?

In fact, Germany and Italy didn't declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor we would have been stuck with just the Pacific war against imperialist Japs.

Re: An unmitigated disaster
"The parallels are ominous --- between FDR and GWB. In different ways, both sought to increase presidential power in defiance of Congresss. Both sneak attacks on American soil were caused by presidential blundering -- by BOTH parties --- the same blundering that caused the following tragic outcomes."

I suggest you read the Constitution of the United States of America (http://www.constitution.org/cons/constitu.txt) regarding the mandated constitutional powers of the Command-in-Chief in time of war or National Emergency. The powers of the Congression regard "making war" are limited to two:
1. Declaring war, which they by Joint Resolution for both "War of Islamo-fascism" and the "Operation: Iraqi Freedom".
2. Once they have declared war, the remaining "power" of Congress is the "purse strings" - funding the war, all other Strategic and Tactical Authority as to the running of the War, including gathering intelligence on the enemy are the perogatives of the Command-in-Chief.

Reading the Federal Papers (http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa00.htm) related to Presidential War Powers might also prove a good exercise for you. You obviously are clueless as to how our Republic operates in time of war.

BTW, the Judicial Branch as no War Powers. In fact, in time of war the President can suspend Writ of Habeas Corpus, the judiciary's most powerful tool. BTW, the 9/11 attack qualified as an invasion, and based on the so-called "Liquid Bomb Attack" of last week, the "public Safety" would still seem to "require it"!

Acticle I. Section 9

"The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

movingwater writes: Thursday, August, 17, 2006 10:45 PM
Re: The Taming of the Jew

--Quoting me:
"There was no oil embargo."

--movingwater:
As there should have been. There was no International mandate that the US must sell oil to its enemy. If an oil embargo was a "cause celebre" for starting a war, we should have declared war on your buddies the Arabs in 1973.

Read it again, your own quote of me. THERE WAS NO OIL EMBARGO

Here's your sign




movingwater: bad bluff

Question: Does anyone here agree with movingwater -- when he states with great sarcasm the "mandated constitutional powers the Command-in-Chief in time of war or National Emergency."

Question 2: Is anyone else here, other than movingwater, ignorant of the Supreme Court decision against the President,regarding terrorisim and war crimes?

Question 3: Is anyone else here, other than movingwater, ignorant of the War Powers Act of 1973??

Question 4: Does anyone here, other than movingwater, confuse Presidential powers with those of Genghis Khan?

Question 5: Does anyone here, other than movingwater, believe various war powers are restricted to only the constitution? Instead of also several thousand laws?

If so,I may have to start ordering those signs by the boxcar.

Documentation of these bizarre claims is documented below. You may have to see them to believe them.

movingwater August, 17, 2006 11:14 PM
Re: An unmitigated disaster

Gets goofier every post

----

I suggest you read the Constitution of the United States of America (http://www.constitution.org/cons/constitu.txt) regarding the mandated constitutional powers of the Command-in-Chief in time of war or National Emergency.



Lydia and I finally agree!
"Lydia writes: Friday, August, 18, 2006 12:18 PM
LOL!
YOU ARE A LUNATIC."


Yes, her sure is.

So nice that we finally agree on something.

movingwater (again)
movingwater writes: Thursday, August, 17, 2006 10:56 PM
Re: An unmitigated disaster

Quoting me:
"In fairness, movwater at least admits what he's been denying for over a week ...we did take sides in a war we otherwise had notning to do with -- as we are doing now --- which caused a sneak attack on our soil -- as we saw on 9/11."

movingwater:
We didn't take sides until after the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor

Wrong again. (this is a macro)

For anyone else who flunked high school history, see again the DOCUMENTED fact that we were actually supporting China in its war with Japan.

My posting and source link:
August, 16, 2006 3:44 AM

Here's another sign



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