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Thursday, May 21, 2009
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Bibi Agonistes
by Cal Thomas
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Things are not always as they appear in the Middle East. Appearances can also deceive whenever an Israeli prime minister and a U.S. president get together in Washington.

During their two-hour meeting at the White House on Monday, it appeared as though Barack Obama and Benjamin Netanyahu were bosom buddies. Netanyahu, especially, praised the new president and claimed agreement with Obama that, as a first priority, Iran must be stopped from possessing nuclear weapons.

A "senior official traveling with the prime minister" (one of those euphemisms required to disguise who is really speaking) told a small group of reporters and columnists following the White House meeting that, for the first time since the creation of Zionism, Jews and Arabs see eye-to-eye concerning the strategic threat a nuclear Iran would present. "This goal supersedes anything else," said the official. In response to questions, the official acknowledged that Arab leaders say one thing to their friends and something quite different to their enemies.

President Obama invoked an end-of-the-year timeline for diplomacy with Iran to work. This would seem to give Iran a green light to pursue its nuclear bomb for the next seven months. At the end of December when we in the West learn that Iran has been stringing us along and using diplomacy as a delaying tactic, what then? Will it be Israel that bombs the nuclear sites, or will it be one or more of those Arab nations supposedly of one mind in opposition to a nuclear Iran?

It's a safe bet to put your money on Israel doing the dirty work and suffering the usual condemnation -- accompanied by more terrorist attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah -- from the United States, the United Nations and the European Union, the latter two seeing nothing worth fighting to preserve.

A more sobering assessment has come from RAND, a nonprofit research corporation. In a new report entitled "Dangerous But Not Omnipotent: Exploring the Reach and Limitations of Iranian Power in the Middle East," prepared for the U.S. Air Force, RAND dismisses hopes that bilateral talks between the United States and Iran will alter Tehran's behavior. It calls such hopes "unrealistic" and advocates a broad international effort that would leverage incentives and punishment based on Iran's response. This has been tried before and has mostly proved ineffective because there are countries that do not abide by economic boycotts.

The senior Israeli official noted that while Israel has lived up to its obligations and commitments -- especially when it has come to relinquishing land taken from enemies who launched attacks from that land, and who would do so again if they get it back -- the Palestinian side has not. Does this not beg the question as to why any future promises should be believed when every previous promise has been broken?

Yes, for 60 years, Arab leaders have been captured by their own propaganda, as one member of the Israeli delegation told me. So how do you reverse that, I asked, and when can the world expect to see them stop publishing textbooks, delivering sermons and printing cartoons in state-owned newspapers that equate Jews with pigs and monkeys and call for their destruction? He couldn't say.

If there is to be a Palestinian state, what kind of state will it be? Would it be allowed to have an army, or a "police force" that would effectively serve as an army? Surely Israel could not stand for another armed force in its neighborhood. Would a Palestinian state be permitted to have an airport and overland access to countries that might supply it with terrorists and weapons?

A recent Washington Times editorial put it well: "The Obama administration should focus less on creating a Palestinian state and more on helping Palestinians earn the right to statehood." That is exactly the right order.

In 1996, Netanyahu came to Washington for the first time as prime minister to meet with President Clinton. I recall him warning the Clinton administration that the greatest threat facing Israel is the arming of Iran with nuclear weapons. He was a prophet then and that prophecy is now on the verge of coming true.

In a rebuke to the president's commitment to diplomacy, Iran conducted a missile test within hours after Netanyahu left Washington for Israel. If Iran gets a nuclear bomb, everything will change in the Middle East. Whatever dim prospects for peace there may be will come unraveled. That's why stopping Iran's nuclear ambitions trumps a Palestinian state and everything else.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Cal , there you go again
Cal, you fail to mention the theft of Palestinian land ! You are such a liar or just an AIPAC stooge ! What about the land that the Israelis expropriated to build settlements where 250,000 zionist squatters reside ? You criminal with a pen ! You fail to mention that Palestinian's homes and orchards were leveled in order to build these settlements . You clown, this is illegal by UN Resolution 242 which even the US voted for. Just one question Cal: was this article
written by you with talking points provided by AIPAC or did they just wrtie the column and you were told to pass it off as your own ?

Joseph...the land belongs
to Jehovah God, not the Palestinians, who are the squatters. It is a covenant agreement between the Almighty and the Jewish people. It is God who made the covenant with the Jewish people, not the Jewish people making a covenant with God....and anyone, anyone who tries to give the land away, anyone, will be broken into pieces, and that includes that usurper sitting in the Oval office, the devil incarnate. You won't be singing the praises of the Palestinians when God's judgment comes full force upon the U.S. You need to get on the right side of this argument....God's side. Today is the day of Salvation...don't let the train leave the station without you.


To Catfish
Science is here to prove there is a God, because it is impossible to prove the existence of God, but the signs of him are all around. You just have to open your eyes to see it. As far as Middle East peace, well I agree, the radical Arabs and Muslims will never let there be peace, and they are the biggest problem. Do you see Israel newspapers calling Arabs monkeys or pigs? No. Do you see Israel sending young boys and girls to their deaths, as in homicide bombers? No. You and your kind who think war isn't the answer would allow evil to flourish in the world to the pointy where they, islamist's to come and cut your throat while they film it for the nightly news. They do that you know, and you do know, but are too blinded by your liberal feel good attitude. Evil is out there bucko, and it lives in the Middle East.

"... end-of-the-year timeline...?"

Obozo might have learned a lesson since his one year time line to close Gitmo isn't working out very well.

And his Gitmo time line only involved the cooperation of OUR OWN Congress...

Now he's imposing a time line for diplomacy with Iran to work. Good luck with that, especially after Iran's timely missile launch.

And just an aside... Anyone pay attention to the press conference with Netanyahu and Obozo?

Obozo NEVER LOOKED AT Netanyahu, even while he was speaking about him, yet while Netanyahu was speaking, Obozo sat there with his most arrogant look... nose in the air and chin out...




To Catfish
You have every right to disbelieve there is a God...BUT it does not change the fact that He does exist! Catfish, He loved you and me and all of the people ever born so much that He sent his son Jesus Christ to die on a cross for our sins. One day every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord...including you and every other non believer. You do not believe because you do not want to admit that you are a sinner. Sometimes it is hard to admit when we are wrong but I promise you if you really want to know for yourself then just admit to him that you are a sinner and ask Him for forgiveness and then thank him for paying the penalty for your sin when he died on the cross. Then fasten your seatbelt for the ride of your life.

Bottom dwelling Catfish
"the reason the Pal's use suicide bombers is because they don't have planes or tanks to use; Israel has them, via a gift from USA taxpayers, and use them on Gazans"

There are more armaments among the Arabs than the Israelis could ever hope to have (as well as a hundred times the men of military age). The differences between the two sides are many but the one that stands out is the Israelis are compassionate while the Arabs care not a whit for human life.

When the state of Israel was formed the grand mufti of Jerusalem (an Arab who supported the Nazis) ordered all the Arabs to leave the territory of Israel so Arab armies could destroy everything in the land. Many left, not because Israel forced them out but their fellow Arabs. After the war Israel allowed Jews from every nation to come and paid a heavy price to make sure that those in Arab lands were able to.

In contrast the Arabs held their own people hostages and refused to let them into their countries as full citizens. They have treated them worse than dogs.

The problem with you and other anti-Semites is you can't stand to see a successful Israel. You care nothing for the Palestinians or you would be fighting for their right to integrate into Arab society.

Enjoy the mud and the muck down there on the bottom of the pond, you deserve it.

We should wash our hands of this
The US financial contributions to both Israel, Palestinians and other foreign governments in the region enable them to continue fighting instead of searching for means of peaceful coexistence. We should stop our foreign aid to them. Of course, if individuals want to contribute, they can send their own money. Doing this would eliminate one reason so many Islamic extremists hate the US, and would help make us safer. We can continue to oppose Iran's nuclear bomb desires and we'll have taken away one of their reasons for thier pursuit of the bob. When, and if, Iran uses the bomb, then they can suffer the consequences.

Ignorant Steve
I'm very pro-Zion in the mold of P/M Rabin who apparently was anti-semitic because he signed away land for peace. Ignorant Steve, state your academic evidence that my statements are ant-semitic?
Its apparent to me that the far right Jewish view is the only view in your view. How anti world opinion you are! Quit being anti-Protestant, which just want to end war!
p.s. do you like shrimp or lobster, bottom dwellers?

Inappropriate Unlawful Illegal Meddling
Carter, Clinton and now Obama nor anyone else has any right or business meddling in the affairs of a sovereign state – Modern Israel, established in 1948 pursuant to UN Resolution 181 of 1947 which provided also for establishment of a Palestinian state. Bush rightly so up to a point did not bother with Israel until the last year or so of his presidency.
Israel, as indicated clearly by the name Modern Israel existed for about 4000 years as Ancient Israel with a continuous Jewish presence. Jews have been in Israel for all those centuries despite the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, the Roman occupation, murder and destruction, and the Diaspora. All of these tragic events removed some but not all Jews from the Land ever in the history of Israel.
Palestine, thus Palestinians, is a creation of a foreign occupying power for a specific purpose and came late in the history of Israel. I leave it to you anti-Israel, Jew haters, pro-Muslim, Arab, Palestinian supporters, aiders, abetters and apologists to study and learn who first used the term Palestine, when and why. It will be a valuable exercise for you to do so.
Even later at the founding of Islam by Mohammed in Saudi Arabia the aims of Muslims have been takeover of the world for Allah, a worldwide caliphate with Islamic Shar’ia law, and the conversion, subjugation or murder of all unbelievers in Islam starting with Jews and Christians and the destruction and takeover of Israel. Clearly Muslim aims remain unchanged, and that is what this is all about. (cont.)


Inappropriate Illegal ... Meddling-2
No meddling is necessary now. The West Bank, taking up a huge chunk of Israel from near the borders with Jordan and Syria to a few miles of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Gaza Strip exist. The West Bank is controlled by the Fatah, PA and remnants of the PLO; the Gaza Strip by Hamas and other named Islamic jihad terrorist groups since Jews were removed forcibly by the IDF in 2005 in yet another failed land for peace deal and the violent takeover of the Strip by Hamas and other Islamic terrorists.
Jerusalem has been divided for centuries, not only into two but even further subdivided into ethnic-religious sectors. Israeli Jews control Jerusalem; Palestinians control East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians can declare the West Bank and/or the Gaza Strip as Palestinian state(s) anytime they choose if that is their objective. Clearly it is not nor has it been ever, including not since 1948 pursuant to UN Resolution 181 of 1947. Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians refused to declare a state then and do so now to avoid recognition of Israel as a state.
Their objectives are the destruction, takeover of Israel and murder of all Jews, all 13-14M Jews worldwide, about half of them in Israel while Muslims claim 1.7-1.9B and occupy the West Bank and Gaza Strip of Israel.
Why any of this is difficult to understand is beyond me because it is based on truth, facts, real history, current events and the so often shrilly-stated aims and intents of Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians.
In addition to all that Obama is at best heavily-influenced by Islam by his own admission in his bio books, "campaign rhetoric" and statements, actions as pretend president. Muslims, like Muamar Qadafi in an Oct. 08 speech say Obama is a Muslim. Obama certainly acts as if he is a Muslim.
Obama's motivations then are highly suspect and most dangerous to all who are not Muslims.

Catfish:
Are you aware that Obama, the illegal alien Muslim, just gave $900 million or is it billion to the Palis?

Israel should stop taking what little money they get from us and take care of business as they see fit.

I am a bit embarassed that the USA has to rely on little Israel to do the heavy lifting.

Joseph in IL
You are a typical pro-Muslim, Arab, Palestinian supporter, aider, abetter and apologist squawking like a parrot the lies and propaganda of your delusional, living in denial of truth, facts, real history, current events and duped ilk.
You call Thomas a liar, AIPAC stooge and criminal when it is in fact you who are the liar, stooge of Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians and criminal. Your projection of your traits and behaviors onto others is a clear sign of your mental illness.
I bet you were even dumb enough to vote for Obama and still be supporting him.
Trying to pass the Muslim, Arab, Palestinian lies and propaganda off as your own failed miserably. It is most familiar, oft-repeated by others and reveals you for what you are – an “ignoramus” as Chavez called Obama, going to stupid.

Silliness
Israel has only abided by all of its agreements if one counts justifying not abiding by ones agreements on the grounds that the other side isn't doing so either. But by that standard the Palestinians have abided by all of their agreements too. The fact that someone can make the laughable claim that Thomas does and not be dismissed as outside the bounds of people deserving to be taken seriously shows how warped the debate is in our country. One would obviously prefer if saying patently false things took away ones credibility.

What Thomas spells out here, keeping Palestinians in a perpetual state of occupation until they build the kinds of instutions that are ineffective for occupied people, is the formulation most likely to lead the destruction of Israel in the long run. Such occupations are simply not workable in the long run.

That is the real harm in ignoring the humanity of the Palestinians. It is not just that there is something morally reprehensible about ignoring the humanity of a large group of people. But it does not even further the cause of ones own side in the debate. It is bad for the Israelis to act as if the Palestinians are different than they actually are, because solutions based on unreality don't work.

Lou
"Israel should stop taking what little money they get from us and take care of business as they see fit."

Little? Israel is in the top three of the largest recipients of US aid. And what heavy lifting is that? You have it backwards, the US does Israel's lifting. That little adventure in Iraq was in Israel's interest, not the Americans.

pass
"Joseph...the land belongs to Jehovah God, not the Palestinians..." Says you and your Bible which is about as germane to this as Mary Had A Little Lamb. I bet the Palestinians say God gave them the land too. And the land of Israel in the Bible includes parts of several sovereign states...Egypt, Lebanaon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Should it be US policy that these become part of Israel too?

And might we add that modern Israelis have about as much connection to Jews from the 1st century living in Judaea as I do.

Wanda
"He loved you and me and all of the people ever born so much that He sent his son Jesus Christ to die on a cross for our sins."

A manner of opinion...while a majority opinion in the US, not a majority opinion in much of the rest of the world.

"Sometimes it is hard to admit when we are wrong..."

That could be said of Christians too, could it not? Many people of other faiths would say you are just as wrong as you believe they are.

Steve
"There are more armaments among the Arabs than the Israelis could ever hope to have (as well as a hundred times the men of military age). The differences between the two sides are many but the one that stands out is the Israelis are compassionate while the Arabs care not a whit for human life."

Tell me then when the Palestinians get F15s and AH-64s and nuclear weapons.

Ronald
"Carter, Clinton and now Obama nor anyone else has any right or business meddling in the affairs of a sovereign state..."

Or Iraq as far as that went using your rationale, but the US has been meddling in the affairs of other states for a long, long time--including assassinations and overthrowing democractic elected governments and a host of other things.

And no, the PA could not declare a Palestinian state as Israel at this point wouldn't accept it and even if it did it would be a state in name only with a great deal of foreigners (that being the Israelis) living on Palestinian land under the protection of the IDF and checkpoints and the whole lot.

Akagi
"And no, the PA could not declare a Palestinian state as Israel at this point wouldn't accept it and even if it did it would be a state in name only with a great deal of foreigners (that being the Israelis) living on Palestinian land under the protection of the IDF and checkpoints and the whole lot. "

****
Well, maybe we should turn it over to the United Nations again, let them declare that
they did not have the right in the first place
to give it to the Israelis, and let it go back
to the Palestinians.

Then we shall see who is shooting whom in the
back.

Cal Thomas
Who, what, where is Bibi Agonistes?

Catfish Keith of No Location
How appropriate you are of no location on this planet with at least a few sane people. Please see my post to your clone or vice-versa Joseph in IL. It applies to you also.
Further you declare you are Godless - no surprise there – and show how illogical driven by raw emotion you are. Ann Coulter, one you no doubt abhor and dismiss as you do God, labeled you Liberal Loons Godless and mentally ill long ago. Dr. Lyle Rossiter, renowned forensic psychiatrist, has proven scientifically that you are mentally ill.
You are wrong about everything you posted here. Science has proven the existence of God [Surprised by Faith, Dr. Don Bierle (Bend, OR: Global Publishing, 2003) as only one reference for your reading and study]. Science, which you so obviously do not grasp at all along with truth, facts, real history and current events, has not proven everything yet to be proven, and historically science has reversed it proofs many times in history.
Israel has not dragged the U.S. into any wars ever; Israel has fought its own wars for about 4000 years and for sure since the establishment in 1948 of Modern Israel, thus an Ancient Israel, pursuant to UN Resolution 181 of 1947. (cont.)

Catfish Keith of No :Location-2
Israel is a tiny country about the size of NJ carved up by the occupying Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and surrounded on three sides in depth by millions of the Muslim-claimed 1.7-1.9B worldwide against the 13-14M Jews about half of them living in Israel peacefully working, playing and enjoying life with Israeli Palestinians, Christians, Druse and others thanks to the IDF providing national defense for and protection of all ethnic and religious groups that live in Israel.
Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians have gotten U.S. and other countries’ foreign, including military, aid and have weaponry equal to and exceeding Israel’s. Certainly “expect more war” as long as the former are intent on destroying and murdering the latter.
Your post of 9:23 a.m. to Ignorant Steve makes less sense than your other posts if that is possible. You are the ignorant one as shown by all your posts. Your far left “view is the only view in your view. World opinion is seldom if ever a good guide and certainly not in this case so influenced by the propaganda lies of Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians that you leap off a cliff to support in your ignorance going to stupidity.

Lon in PA
Silliness indeed; yours! Please see my posts to Joseph and Catfish. You are a clone of them or vice-versa. My posts apply equally to all of you and others who may join in here later with such inhuman, immoral, ignorant, bad, unrealistic nonsense as all of you post.

THE PALESTINIAN STATE OF MIND
It is now being reported that the meeting with Obama and Netanyahu at the White House on Tuesday went badly. That the two leaders were at loggerheads over the issue of Palestinian statehood with Netanyahu resisting Obama's insistence that Israel freeze settlement building on the West Bank and restarting the peace process pursue a two state solution to end the conflict. This is what many of us feared: Israel and the US are now on a collision course.........

Click my name and read the rest.




Akagi in GA-US One?
Akagi we have exchanged posts before here. You are just as dumb as before. You are wearing yourself out again posting so quickly with such warped, ignorant going to stupid views. Slow down. Take some breaths. Relax. Read and study a lot before posting here or anywhere else again. You like some of the others are wrong and so silly in all your posts.
Obviously you have no clues as to: 1. Who first used the term Palestine, when and why. 2. The current world war was brought by Islamic jihadists in their most recent of several in their history started 30 years, 6 presidencies or so ago. 3. And that Iraq, now Iran with aims to lead the Muslim world – also a historical struggle among Islamists - as well as Afghanistan as harborers of al-Qaeda and the Taliban had to be taken by the U.S. and willing allies to confront the Islamic jihadists there rather than in the U.S. and other countries. 4. The facts that Saudi Arabia are major financers of Islamic jihadists, and now Pakistan + its nukes are in jeopardy thanks to Obama. 5. The fact that Obama has created a Dien Bien Phu in Afghanistan – lost the northern resupply air base, put in more troops, let or made Pakistan so vulnerable as a land resupply route – look at a map please – and replaced the on-scene ground commander – please read Hell In A Very Small Place by Bernard Fall. 6. Your reflecting the views of anti-U.S., blame America firsters and that the U.S. is not an imperialistic power, never has been and has been involved with other nations only under international law, mutual defense agreements and for peace and stability in the world from various despots over all the history of the U.S.

Akagi in GA-US One? - 2
7. The PA most certainly can declare a Palestinian state (or two now in the West Bank and Gaza Strip) and could have ever since 1947-8. Israel must accept it. The Palestinians are the occupiers not the Israeli Jews or others living in Israel – Google “Israel+demographics” without the quote marks and study the ethnic, religions make up of Israel. The checkpoints are manned by Israelis, Jews, Palestinians, Druse and Christians with UN oversight throughout Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. 8. Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians have all the weaponry and more than tiny Israel; this is a non-sequitur “Tell me then when the Palestinians get F15s and AH-64s and nuclear weapons.” 9. Israeli Jews are solidly connected to ancient Jews in Israel. 10. Religion, esp. Christianity, is not a topic you are qualified to discuss. 11. Comparison of aid to Israel is only valid when made to all Muslim countries since there are many of them, 1.7-1.9B Muslims, only 13-14M Jews and only one Israel, homeland of the Jews for a long, long time now, presently about half of all the Jews in the world.
In other words Akagi you have so much to learn. I expect it to take you at least 45 years to do so, and I hope not to hear from you here or anywhere else again until you know some truths, facts, real history and current events. At the moment you are totally FUBAR and SNAFU.

Gosh Ronald...
... along with abusing people who offer more thoughtful arguments than yourself, you neatly describe an Israel that sounds illogical, misplaced, and untenable.

The smartest policy for Iran would be to declare a "no first use" policy when it comes to attacking Israel or any other country, but make clear that any attacks on Iranian soil will be an act of war, responded to by shooting every firework in the country straight at Zion.


Ronald
"...You are wearing yourself out again posting so quickly with such warped, ignorant going to stupid views."

As I suspected, there's a strong element of "projection" in your posts and attitudes (especially all your "jeez, your stoopid" abuse). Take your own advice -- smooth out, relax, let your meds kick in.


Akagi: In Addition To Being
a pseudointellectual twit who spews misinformation and disinformation, is also a Mus-symp.

Mention the word Israel and the little twerp catapults out of his cubbyhole and proceeds to post frenetically. What gives?

FYI, any aid the US gives to Israel is matched to aid given to Egypt per Camp David Accords. Stop spreading disinformation, you little worm.

Israel does not need our aid--they have enough brain power to fend for themselves. Arabs, not so much. They do have oil, however. We give aid so we can order Israel around.

RW In MI:
Do you even have a job? Being from the cesspool that is MI and all.

Ronald
"Who first used the term Palestine."

It was used as least as early as the Romans.

"The current world war was brought by Islamic jihadists in their most recent of several in their history started 30 years..."

Calling it a world war? Well I suppose it depends what you mean by that. If you are comparing Islamic Jihad to what we usually call world wars, then that is frankly stupid. it has much more in common with the Cold War than either WWI or WWII.

"And that Iraq..."

Iraq was an Arab Socialist state and a secular regime and had little connection to Islamists. That didn't happen until the US decided to invade. Before there were only two terrorist organizations in Iraq and both were Marxist or socialist--the PKK and the MEK.

"...now Iran with aims to lead the Muslim world – also a historical struggle among Islamists - as well as Afghanistan as harborers of al-Qaeda and the Taliban had to be taken by the U.S. and willing allies to confront the Islamic jihadists there rather than in the U.S. and other countries..."

Doing a smash up job in Afghanistan with much of the country in the hands of the Taliban. If the US/NATO ever pulls out the Karzai regime will be gone in weeks if not days.

"The facts that Saudi Arabia are major financers of Islamic jihadists, and now Pakistan + its nukes are in jeopardy thanks to Obama."

Yes for the first one but how is Pakistan Obama's fault? It was the US under Bush that let the Taliban run wild while it went off in its Iraq adventure.


Akagi
As always, I admire the lengths you go to to try to educate these people. I usually don't have the time nor the energy, especially seeing as how facts have never meant much to the majority of people on here. I guess if you can educate just one ignorant soul, it's all worthwhile. Just wanted you to know your hard work was appreciated.

Lon (PA)
All the Palestinians and Hamas have to do is stop killing Israelis, that goes for Iran (Hezbollah) also. If that actually happened we wouldn't be where we are with respect to Israel and Palestine.

Re: Facts are dangerous things
"Little? Israel is in the top three of the largest recipients of US aid. And what heavy lifting is that? You have it backwards, the US does Israel's lifting. That little adventure in Iraq was in Israel's interest, not the Americans."

The other two are Iraq and Egypt. I wonder what the Israelis thinks about that. Israeli aid was a "quid pro quo" so the Nobel Laureate Jimmy Carter could get a photo-op at Camp David when Israel gave the Egyptians back the Sinai for a 2nd time. You see, Israeli is without oil, and during their management of the Sinai they discovered and exploited oil there, that they were "forced" by the US to give back. The aid was in compensation for the lost oil. At the same time Carter awarded Egypt, the 3rd highest US aid recipient. As for Iraq, as I recall, Israel had no problem dealing with Saddam on their own. First in 1967, then in 1971, and finally when they took out Saddams nuclear bomb plant the French built for him. Also, when Saddam began dropping Scuds on Israeli citizens, the Israelis were "ready, willing, and able" to settle his hash for him, but George the First BEGGED them not to. Go figue! Besides, since Israel dropped the Iraqi nuke plant in 1981, Israel didn't have any problems with Saddam until the US went to the rescue of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I suggest that Saudi and Kuwait benefitted much more than Israel when when finally forced Saddam to live up the terms of "Cease Fire" he made to stop the Gulf War: Phase I.

Finally, if the US gets out of their way, Israel will settle the Iranian Nuclkear Bomb question, as well.


Akagi in GA Incomplete, Wrong Again
Good guess on the Romans but you did now answer when and why.
The current world war and WWII are much alike – separate, principal battlefields and worldwide involvement. WWII-ETO involving Africa, ME, Italy, England, Central Europe and Russia, and the Pacific Theater from Hawaii west to China, Southeast Asia with only one serious, damaging attack on the U.S mainland in each so far – Pearl Harbor and WTC, Pentagon, hijacked aircraft crashed in PA. So you are frankly the stupid one.
Iraq was ruled by Hussein, a Sunni Muslim and Sunni Muslims of the Ba'ath Party. Remember they went to war against the Shi’a in Iran and focused on murdering Shi’a and Kurds in Iraq, and invaded Kuwait, fired missiles into Israel during Gulf War I. Leaders of al-Qaeda and other Islamic jihad groups like al-Zarqawi and the key player in the attack on the Achille Lauro were harbored in Iraq by Hussein long before March 2003. Hussein supported Islamic jihadists financially and their families of suicide bombers. Hussein’s aim was to be the leader of the entire Muslim world, certainly in the Middle East, West Asia.
The al-Qaeda and Taliban were defeated in Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden driven out into hiding, sick, wounded or dead maybe, then along came Obama. Islamic jihadists were drawn into Iraq in greater numbers joining al-Qaeda or not, a series of al-Qaeda leaders have been killed, others captured in both Iraq and Afghanistan, elsewhere including in the U.S. al-Qaeda again and other Islamic jihadists like Hamas, Hezbollah and more named groups of jihad terrorists.

Ronald
"The fact that Obama has created a Dien Bien Phu in Afghanistan..."

NATO has been losing in Afghanistan for quite sometime with a British NATO commander saying before the election there was no military solution to Afghanistan.

"Your reflecting the views of anti-U.S., blame America firsters and that the U.S. is not an imperialistic power, never has been and has been involved with other nations only under international law, mutual defense agreements and for peace and stability in the world from various despots over all the history of the U.S."

The US has indeed been a imperial power--from Asia to Latin America to the Middle East.

The PA most certainly can declare a Palestinian state (or two now in the West Bank and Gaza Strip) and could have ever since 1947-8. Until 1967, both were part of sovereign states. yes, they could have declared a state just Tibet can, but I doubt the Jordanians or Egyptians would have gone along just as the Israelis won't at this point. A state without removing the checkpoints and the IDF protecting the settlements living under conditions of extra-nationality is not a state at all.


Akagi in GA Inc., Wrong Again-2
The Taliban did not “run wild” until Obama. Obama said in his “campaign rhetoric” – his words – he would attack Pakistan; he just did not say he would do so with his Muslim pals the Taliban.
Again little mentally ill parrot of Lib Dem Obamaniac lies, propaganda, full of O Kool-Aid, slobbering over your boy Farrakhan Messiah Muslim pretend president you need to get some clues, read, study, get a grasp on some truths, facts, real history and current events. Until you do I can’t help you anymore. At the moment you are not ready to learn and Readiness to Learn is the First Law of Learning. A jackass can be led to water but not made to drink. Bye bye now.

Ronald
"Palestinians have all the weaponry and more than tiny Israel..."

Israel has more weapons than the Palestinians and better quality and being the only nuclear power in the ME with 250-450 nuclear weapons...on the same order as the PRC, Israel is the best armed state in the entire ME.

"Israeli Jews are solidly connected to ancient Jews in Israel."

Not at all. Unless you think Mongols have equal claims on Poland.

"Religion, esp. Christianity, is not a topic you are qualified to discuss."

Who says? You and who are you?

"Comparison of aid to Israel is only valid when made to all Muslim countries since there are many of them, 1.7-1.9B Muslims, only 13-14M Jews and only one Israel..."

One has nothing to do with the other.

"...you are totally FUBAR and SNAFU."

One person f'ed up is you.

John:

The Iranians have learned much from the raid on Osirak. The Israelis would have to hit more than one site and some of these sites are hardened and heavily protected. But if Israel starts a war by attacking Iran, the US should let it deal with the consequencies and it should be warned of such. if Bush can read the riot act to A-bian, Obama can do the same to Bibi.








Ronald
132 a.d. by Hadrian. Why to p*ss off the Jews mostly. He also renamed Jerusalem. If your point there were Jews in Palestine 2000 years ago...yes and the Mongols were in Poland in the 12th century too...they have claims on Warsaw now?

And the current struggle against Jihad has more in common with the Cold War than WWII or WWI.

Lou:

FYI, any aid the US gives to Israel is matched to aid given to Egypt per..."

Israel get about 70% more than Egypt. It alsi gets much more advanced weapons and to show its graditude, it sells military technology to China as well as information on how to defeat US weapons systems. In the past it has helped China developed it cruise missile program, using US technology helped it build the J-10, sold it advanced air-to-air missiles...the Python III and tried to sell it the PHALCON.

"We give aid so we can order Israel around."

If that were the case perhaps the aid would be of use, but Israel tells the US to go Diu Nie Lo Mo and then arms potential enemies and then comes back with hat (should I say yarmulke instead?) in hand.




Re: Hysterical Historians
"Who first used the term Palestine."

"It was used as least as early as the Romans."

And just who inhabited Roman Palestine, both sides of the Jordan, including Jerusalem, at that time? Before Rome it was known as Canaan.

Who was inhabiting "Palestine" in the 7th Century AD when Islam ravaged it in the name of Allah?

I suggest you get you historic facts straight. The Palestine of today, was the Canaan or "Palestine" of the Romans (which was all the land west of the Jordan to the Med.) Today it refers to the British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948), which the Brits agreed to give back to Jordan (Transjordan) in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, to wit:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

In 1947 the Brits turned controll of Palestine over to the UN. On 11/29/1947, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions, in favour to partition the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Arab leaders rejected it and all independent Muslim and Arab states voted against it. Almost immediately, sectarian violence erupted and spread into a Civil War. Arab volunteers of the Arab League entered Israel to fight with the Islamists, but the April-May offensive of Israeli regular and irregular forces crushed the Arabs, however, 350,000 Moslems fled.

John
And since then various groups have lived in Palestine and the Mongols were in Europe, all of China and if not for a natural Kamazaze would have been in Japan and speaking of which, who lived in Japan 2000 years ago? How about Taiwan? The US? Should the Muscogee and their Seminole relatives get your house? Who lived where thousands or hundreds of years ago is totally meaningless.

As for what the British imperialists did that has no legitimacy either. Think they had the right to give Ugandan land which was their first plan. And as for partition...yes British answer to everything and it hasn't worked any where it has been tried. Also, John, are you now British using "favour" or simply cutting and pasting stuff...you should at least Americanize the English, eh?


Lib at Heart
But remember I according to Ronald McDonald here am insufferably stupid. I guess I am after all, Ronald the all knowing said so.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"132 a.d. by Hadrian. Why to p*ss off the Jews mostly. He also renamed Jerusalem. If your point there were Jews in Palestine 2000 years ago...yes and the Mongols were in Poland in the 12th century too...they have claims on Warsaw now?"

Gee, I don't recall the Mongols being granted control by the UN of Poland. However, I do recall the Poles beating back the Moslems from Austria at the Battle of Vienna in 1683 with Polish-Austrian-German forces led by King of Poland John III Sobieski.

BTW, just how many Mongols do you believe reside in Poland, anyway?

Ronald
The Achille Lauro was done by the PLF which was a Marxist/Baathist organization and was no more Islamic than I am. The key member of that operation was Abu Abbas and again he was a member of the PLF whose goals were Arab Marxism not Islamic theocracies. Saddam was born a Sunni Muslim, but he was basically a Arab socialist and not all that religious. He didn't start finding the faith until it served his purpose starting with the Gulf War.

"Hussein supported Islamic jihadists financially and their families of suicide bombers."

So does every royal family in the Gulf, many of which are key allies to the US.

"Hussein’s aim was to be the leader of the entire Muslim world, certainly in the Middle East, West Asia."

No, not at all.

"The al-Qaeda and Taliban were defeated in Afghanistan..."

Since the Taliban now control most of Afghanistan this is 100% false and if NATO/US ever pulled out they would be back in control of the entire country and as things are going now could have Pakistan under the belt too in the near future.

John
The UN...that's funny, you types don't usually agree with the UN, so you can't have it both ways can you since the UN also has declared the Israel occupation illegal no less than it did with East Timor. 242 calls for an Israeli withdrawal which it has not done.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"As for what the British imperialists did that has no legitimacy either."

But according to the Islamic Imperialists did does? After all, as part of the WWI Peace Treaty the Turkish Ottomans who were defeated by the Allies in the Middle East - and the Brits and French divided up their Empire in the Middle East.

"Think they had the right to give Ugandan land which was their first plan."

Obviously they didn't try it, and instead decided to give the Jews their historic homeland - a very, very small piece of the vast Ottoman Empire, as the lion share went to various local Arabs as part of other partitions.

"And as for partition...yes British answer to everything and it hasn't worked any where it has been tried."

Not because the Israelis were not ready to accept it. BTW, seeing how the UN was the final authority in the creation of the country of Israel, I guess you don't like their solutions either. I suppose that your position is that the most beligerent side should win. By the the British-French partition of the Arab Ottoman lands seems to have worked reasonally well, the exception being the Shitite Iraqis objecting to being ruled by the minority Sunnis.

"Also, John, are you now British using "favour" or simply cutting and pasting stuff...you should at least Americanize the English, eh?"

When I quote from a "historic" British Document I try to be as accurate as possible. You should try it, it might even give illogical conclusions more credibility.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"The UN...that's funny, you types don't usually agree with the UN, so you can't have it both ways can you since the UN also has declared the Israel occupation illegal no less than it did with East Timor. 242 calls for an Israeli withdrawal which it has not done."

Their was a time when the UN did pretty good - before the leftist took it over. This was back in 1948-52 when they did the right thing and gave the Jews back there homeland, and agreed to go to war against the North Korean invaders. Since then they have organized a series of Charlie Foxtrots such as their "Peace Mission" to Ruwanda and their stopping Yugoslavian and Sudanese genocide.

When Israel gives the "Rag Heads" land for peace, the get suicide bombers and rockets in return. Heck, the King of Jordan has killed more Palestinians than Israel. Do you even know the meaning of "Black September"?

Re: Hysterical Historians
"The al-Qaeda and Taliban were defeated in Afghanistan..."

"Since the Taliban now control most of Afghanistan this is 100% false and if NATO/US ever pulled out they would be back in control of the entire country and as things are going now could have Pakistan under the belt too in the near future."

They most certainly were defeated in Afghanistan, else why did Osama and the Taliban leadership "bug-out" through the Hindu Kush into Pakistan. Now you can say that the al-Qaeda and Taliban were not defeated in Pakistan, but that is a Pakistani problem that they don't seem either able or willing to handle, and they seem dead set against letting us do it.

John
Black September the PFLP group or the event in which inspired the name when the PLO was expelled from Jordan?

And since most Israelis came from places like the Ukraine and Poland and the like, the phrase "Jews back there homeland" is a questionable point. And do you like using other racist terms or just those directed at Arabs?

John
Oh and yes...the Taliban were defeated if you also think the PLA was defeated or the NVA was defeated.

Re: Facts are dangerous things
"Israel get about 70% more than Egypt."

1) Iraq - $18.44 billion
2) Israel - $2.62 billion
3) Egypt - $1.87 billion
4) Afghanistan - $1.77 billion

$.85 bill is only 40% than $1.87.

So for this 40% you have to ask yourself: "Self, what did Egypt give up to slop on US largess?" Let see they had to stop insisting that they were committed to murdering every Jewish man, woman, and child in the Middle East, and they had to accept Israel's gift to them of the entire Sinai. Go figue! Gee, hardly a quid pro quo.

John
Israels total is 70% higher than Egypt using those 2004 numbers. Israel is actually closer to 3 billion during the last fiscal year.

The next time
Israel kicks butt can we stay out of it. Let them finish the job. We and the stinkin UN always jump in and say stop when the right thing to do is let the strongest survive. If we keep demanding concessions from Israel and looking the other way when the "other sides" cheat who is the problem? The US and the stinkin UN

Another load from Lon
"What Thomas spells out here, keeping Palestinians in a perpetual state of occupation until they build the kinds of instutions that are ineffective for occupied people,"

Name one other country that gives away towns, such as Nablus, Bethlehem, and Jericho to those under "occupation".

Chuck
Indonesia for one....East Timor ring a bell and the UN regarded it as illegally occupied just as the occupied territories are.

Akagi partisan dissembling continues
East Timor hardly qualifies as a town within a state.

Try again.

Chuck
No, but a entire province in a state and the entire occupied territories are held illegally so giving back only parts of the entire territory doesn't earn them any points...no different than the Soviets offering Shikotan-to and Habomai-shoto rather than the entire northern territories.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Black September the PFLP group or the event in which inspired the name when the PLO was expelled from Jordan?"

Looks like those Arab Palestinians can't get along with anybody.

"And since most Israelis came from places like the Ukraine and Poland and the like, the phrase "Jews back there homeland" is a questionable point. And do you like using other racist terms or just those directed at Arabs?"

Oh, you mean the ones who weren't murdered by Stalin and Hitler? Gee, I admire how you protect those murdering Rag Head terrorists but would deny a homeland to the survivers of the Holocaust. Or are you like your Palestinian heroes and deny the history of the murder of 6 million European Jews? By the way, speaking of racists terms and pictures - have you ever read a Palestinian Authority 1st Grade text book?

Re: Facts are hard things!
"Israels total is 70% higher than Egypt using those 2004 numbers. Israel is actually closer to 3 billion during the last fiscal year."

Those were the 2004 figures, the latest available.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Indonesia for one....East Timor ring a bell and the UN regarded it as illegally occupied just as the occupied territories are."

Do you think that possibly all those Australian troops might just have had somethin to do with it?

Re: Facts are hard things!
"No, but a entire province in a state and the entire occupied territories are held illegally so giving back only parts of the entire territory doesn't earn them any points...no different than the Soviets offering Shikotan-to and Habomai-shoto rather than the entire northern territories."

What does the UN have to say about the Russian's illegal occupation the 4 formerly Japanese owned islands? How many resolutions did the UN file against the USSR and Russia?

Who "occupied" the West Bank before Israel took it after being attack by her neighbor to the East in the 1967 war? Who should they Israelis give it back to? The Palestinians had been run out by the Jordanian when they occupied it, and the don't want it now, just like Egypt, who occupied Gaza before the 6 Day War don't want it back either. How many resolutions did the UN pass against Jordan and Gaza when they occupied those so called Palestinian lands?

Apparently you don't see the hyprocrisy in this and how worthless the UN has become.

Akagi in GA Still & More Wrong
Akagi being ignorant going to stupid, argumentative playing loose with hard truths, facts, real history and current events, *twisting the words of others, and persistent in your willful ignorance and mentally ill behaviors are not virtues.
Have you noticed no one here agrees with you, others here ridicule you and your silly viewpoints?
PLF is Palestinian Liberation Front, an Islamic jihadist terrorist organization regardless of what else it, they and their leader may be or that you want to label them to avoid truth and facts.
Israeli Jews know to whom they are solidly connected, not you. Your asinine statement about Mongols and Poland is not funny. The survival of a nation and a people is a rather serious matter.
I am a Bible scholar with 3 college degrees further intense study, teacher and professor of many subjects in many venues, 67-year-old minister to Jews, Muslims and others there and here, retired military officer with 21 years active duty, 38 years total in uniform who has been to the Middle East including Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip area, Jordan and Egypt 8x since 2004 alone. Who are you? What are your qualifications to discuss anything, esp. religion, intn'l relations, nat'l defense and the Middle East.
This is your most ridiculous statement, “One has nothing to do with the other,” in response to my "Comparison of aid to Israel..." (cont.)

Akagi in GA Still & More Wrong-2
You are the “One person f'ed up” and so much so you don’t know when to shut up, sit down and start studying, getting ready to learn. You are hopelessly FUBAR, SNAFU and apparently determined to remain so.
*I did not say "Palestinians have all the weaponry and more than tiny Israel..." you lying POS. I said “8. Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians have all the weaponry and more than tiny Israel...”
I am glad to see you concede points 1-7 in that one post and that you now know from me and others you are still and more wrong.
Post all you want to me. I will not respond. Shredding you and your pathetic, warped arguments is not enough of a challenge even to be fun.

PLF
Is a Marxist, Arab Nationalist organization with also helped to form the PFLP. They are not Jihadist nor Islamic, but Marxist. As for being a terrorist organization, depends on your point of view doesn't it?

Me, BA, MA, MA, Ph.D., taught at both the West Point of Taiwan as well as it's air force academy, one of my major areas at the Ph.D. level was comparative politics. So I'll spot your so-called knowledge with my own. If you are such an expert in the region you would know the PLF was not an Islamist organization nor was Saddam. I did not conceed any point to you except in the rare times you were actually right. So now go and take your retired uniform SOB self back to the hole you crawled out of.

And happy Memorial Day...too bad somebody didn't smoke your worthless pigu when they had the change during your claimed 38 years. Guess America's enemies need to learn to shoot better.


John
Not really. When Indonesia melted down during the East Asian Crisis and Suharto was driven from office, President Habibie agreed to the UN-sponsored East Timor self-determination plan. He was under no threat from anyone to do this. He agreed to hold the referendum and if they voted for it he would agree to drop Indonesia's claims on East Timor.

I am no fan of the UN. See UN Resolution 2758.

I don't deny the holocaust, but that doesn't follow that refugees from Europe should have been allowed to flood into the British mandate either. As for the Northern Territories, I am betting not a single resolution same as Tibet. When you have a veto, you don't have resolutions voted against your occupations.

So since others use racist terms, you think that gives you a green light. I forgot to flag those. Let me get on that.

Another load from Lon
"... keeping Palestinians in a perpetual state of occupation until they build the kinds of instutions that are ineffective for occupied people,"

Tell me what other nation state hands over cities in their borders, like Bethlehem, Nablus, and Jericho, to those it has under "occupation"?

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Not really. When Indonesia melted down during the East Asian Crisis and Suharto was driven from office, President Habibie agreed to the UN-sponsored East Timor self-determination plan. He was under no threat from anyone to do this. He agreed to hold the referendum and if they voted for it he would agree to drop Indonesia's claims on East Timor."

The only difference between Indonesian Timor and East Timor was their colonial master. Indonesian was Dutch and East Timor was Portugese. Immediately following WWII Indonesia demanded and fought for its independence from the Dutch, achieve this partially in 1949 and completely when West New Guinea was incorporated into Indonesia in 1962. East Timor remained a Portugese possession until 1975 when the Carnation Revolution in Portugal led to the de-colonization of Portugese Angola and Mozambique along with East Timor. Both Angola and Mozambique soon had Communist governments. Fearing a Communist takeover in East Timor, Indonesia who recent ended a long, bloody struggle with its Communists decided the the best course was to occupy East Timor and end the threat.

In 1999, if it hadn't been for some 15,000 ADF troops, the newly minted Nation of East Timor would have been a mere wisp of smoke.


Re: Hysterical Historians
"I am no fan of the UN. See UN Resolution 2758."

I can readily understand why. So why was their meaningless resolutions to defend the murder of Jews?

"I don't deny the holocaust, but that doesn't follow that refugees from Europe should have been allowed to flood into the British mandate either."

Well, at least we have established that. To bad your heroes, the "Rag Heads" don't. As for the Jewish refugees, I suggest you read the story about the liner St. Louis and its cargo of German refugees fleeing Hilter's Germany before the Final Solution was implemented. BTW, have you ever heard the history of the "Wandering Jew" and the several Desporas which over the centuries attempted de-populate Israel of its Jewish people. Maybe you might cut the Jewish "refugees from Europe" a little slack once you hear the "rest of the story".

"As for the Northern Territories, I am betting not a single resolution same as Tibet. When you have a veto, you don't have resolutions voted against your occupations."

Sounds like a great way to try and ran the World.

"So since others use racist terms, you think that gives you a green light. I forgot to flag those. Let me get on that."

Your "moral equilvalence" is truly mind boggling! God, what would the World do without the "Politically Correct".

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Me, BA, MA, MA, Ph.D., taught at both the West Point of Taiwan as well as it's air force academy, one of my major areas at the Ph.D. level was comparative politics."

Considering your pedigree as a professor at the Republic of China Military Academy I can't help but ponder how you feel about the Nationalist Chinese illegal occupation of the Island of Formosa, sovereign territory of the People's Republic of China?

Considering you views on illegal occupations, how can you justify this one? Also, seeing how you object to the military and other support given Israel by the US, how can you justify our more comphensive support given the illegal Republic of China?

As you are apparently an instructor in politics at the "West Point of Taiwan", how did you phrase your lecture on the use of US force to defend the Taiwan Straits and the Islands of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu and the infamous Quemoy, from the ChiCom hodes. Did you explain how "misguided" the US foreign policy was in defend their tiny ally, when the Red Chinese market had so much more potential? I would have loved to have audited your class for those!

Kindly provide me some of your expert insight into just how long the Nationist Republic of China would last if we were to inform the Reds that in order to get them to pick another trillion, or so, of our worthless paper, we would no longer contest their access to the Twiwan Straits.

Re: Allah's MAD
"Tehran knows perfectly well that when they do, we will make their nation glow in the dark for 50 years. They don't care. They consider it an acceptable sacrifice."

Actually, I think the Mullahs are betting that Allah will intervene on their behalf causing our retalitory nukes that haven't been adequately test in 17 years, and Israel's nukes, which have never been tested to simply fizzle like the NK's nuke did.

Re: A Rose by Any Other Name
"Is a Marxist, Arab Nationalist organization with also helped to form the PFLP. They are not Jihadist nor Islamic, but Marxist. As for being a terrorist organization, depends on your point of view doesn't it?"

So is it your contention the the PLF, the PFLP, and the Saddams were not terrorists? I believe Leon Klinghoffer, and the other passengers of the Achille Lauro, and Danny Haran his four year-old daughter, Einar, his wife, Smadar, and two year-old daughter Yael. Also query the Kurds of Northern Iraq, the Swamp Arabs of Southern Iraq, the Iraqi Olympic Soccer Team, the Kuwaitis, Saudis, and the Iranians as to the terrorist credentials of the PLF, PFLP, Saddam, his sons, and his Republican Guard.
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