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Thursday, March 26, 2009
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Consensus or Censorship?
by Cal Thomas
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


The Environmental Protection Agency has submitted a "finding" to the White House Office of Management and Budget that will force the Obama administration to decide whether to limit greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean Air Act. If adopted, new laws and regulations will likely follow that have the potential to change our lifestyles and limit our freedoms. None of these laws and regulations will be preceded by debate, they will be imposed on us by fundamentalist politicians and scientists who have swallowed the Kool-Aid and declared global warming as fact; end of discussion.

On the Discovery Channel last week, Tom Brokaw hosted a special called "Global Warming: The New Challenge." While promoting the piece, Brokaw declared, "there is a growing consensus that global warming is real and getting worse." Actually, there is a growing body of opinion that global warming is a fraud perpetrated by liberal politicians and their scientific acolytes who want more control over our lives.

Whenever politicians declare a crisis, or an emergency, watch out. Chances are this means they want to impose something before the public discovers the truth.

One of the definitions of consensus is "general agreement or concord; harmony." Any honest assessment of scientific opinion leads to the conclusion that there is significant disagreement on global warming within the scientific community among those with expertise in climatology and related fields. Yet many politicians want us to believe all of science is on board with manmade global warming and that we must act now to save the planet and ourselves from catastrophe (catastrophe is another word politicians like to use when imposing their agendas).

You know something is up when prominent apostles of global warming, especially former vice president and Nobel Laureate, Al Gore, refuse to debate or discuss the issue with any scientist who takes a contrary view. Some religious fundamentalists impose various codes of behavior and dress on their adherents and threaten expulsion (if not death) for those who fail to acquiesce to their dictates. Is it not fundamentalist science to ignore any evidence that casts doubt on global warming? For a treasure trove of information that debunks the "science" of global warming visit www.globalwarminghoax.com.

For global warming fundamentalists, no amount of contradictory information will dilute their faith. Science makes mistakes, as did NASA when it published data on global warming trends in an effort to gauge the warmest years in U.S. history. Their temperature statistics were flawed. The year 1998 was not the hottest year on record, as NASA originally stated, it was 1934 -- the year Wiley Post discovered the jet stream.

In New York earlier this month, more than 600 scientists, economists, legislators and journalists from many nations met for the second International Conference on Climate Change. Numerous presentations debunked with documentation what they called the pseudoscience and dictatorial intentions promoted by the UN, the European Union and the Obama administration. If there was media coverage of the event, I missed it.

The keynote speaker at the gathering was Vaclav Klaus, president of the Czech Republic and the European Union. Klaus described environmentalism as a new collectivist religion that doesn't just want to change the climate, but us as well. Klaus rejected the executive summary published by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as all politics and environmental activism, "not science."

The Australian newspaper recently reported on three senior Japanese scientists who separately engaged in climate-change research and "have strongly questioned the validity of the manmade global warming model that underpins the drive by the UN and most developed-nation governments to curb greenhouse gas emissions." One of the scientists, Kanya Kusano, told the newspaper, "I believe the anthropogenic (manmade) effect for climate change is still only one of the hypotheses to explain the variability of climate."

Shunichi Akasofu, founding director of the University of Alaska's International Arctic Research Centre added, "Before anyone noticed, this hypothesis has been substituted for truth."

Truth is sometimes inconvenient, as Al Gore likes to say. But that cuts both ways. Truth can also be inconvenient when it shines light on propaganda. Not to allow for a full-fledged debate on global warming is censorship, a popular practice in totalitarian societies and many fundamentalist religions and cults.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Well Said
Perhaps the next ice age, overdue from the 70s is here.

Climate change is about power and making money for people who sell cap and trade carbon credits, nothing more.

In another 5 years there will not be enough reputable scientists left who support this idea to muster a ball team.

Ummm
It appears the liars have won again. They have told us they don't even care if global warming is true or not, we must "get off the oil" and we must "be the leading edge of alternative fuel and energy research" and "the libtard government will pay for and implement it all" while "punishing the greedy oil war executives that made you pay for your gasoline these lo and sundry decades " - not to forget to mention "this will hurt the Bush oil family greatly" and "their saudi friends" who "together pulled off 911" with their "CIA Osama" and their GHWB skull and bones and grandaddy nazi bank supporting master who hate all the colored peoples of the world and want them dead from pollution, as the Bush lords survive in their white sepulchured castles.
So you see, SCIENCE is the very least of the matter, Cal.

If you want to know
what happens when data are submitted that questions the prevailing religion of the day, ask Gallileo. Sack cloth, ashes and public pilloring... if you're lucky.

Spot on, Cal!
Global warming is not science. Even conclusive proof that it does not exist would not deter its adherents BECAUSE that is their excuse to grab enormous sums of money to fund their anti-capitalist, socialist agenda. It is just another example of THE BIG LIE technique, brought to us by Bill Clinton: if you tell a big lie long enough and consistently enough, regardless of the evidence, credulous people will eventually accept the lie as truth.
It is now the basic tenet of the Democrat faith.
Am I the only one who has noticed that almost everything that proceedeth from the mouth of a Democrat is a lie, or based on a lie???

GW Coup d'etat
When so-called scientists and "thought leaders" swallow this GW myth without proof positive one loses faith in "the elite." The paradox is that while America's self-proclaimed leaders insist that GW is happening and is caused by human beings they don't want to hear critics like you and me who say, based on historical experience, that if you spend trillions you don't have eventually you will have to pay the piper through inflated currency and destruction of our economy and living standards.

Think Zimbabwe.

Somewhere the colonels are planning a coup and maybe that's a good thing if they rid us of false Pied Pipers like Al Gore and Barry Obama.

Anytime....
I hear a liberal say that there is a 'Consensus', regardless of the topic, I go out and buy more ammo.
Cause you know that you're about to have another freedom taken away.

Limiting Greenhouse Gas Emissions
Recycling, hybrid cars and alternative fuels is like a cancer patient giving up cigarettes on his death bed. Martha Stewart is polishing the brass on the Titanic. It's too late for this. It won't make much difference.

Ummmm, Cal...
"Whenever politicians declare a crisis, or an emergency, watch out. Chances are this means they want to impose something before the public discovers the truth."

... isn't that what the 9/11 Truthers have been saying? They haven't much impressed me either.




On the $$$ with this column, Cal
"Whenever politicians declare a crisis, or an emergency, watch out. Chances are this means they want to impose something before the public discovers the truth."

Exactly! This crisis is just a ruse to impose a cap & tax on the public at large. If we "feel" as if we're doing "good," then we won't mind having our freedoms taken away. We'll just be "doing our part."

It's just so sad that 52% of the voters bought in to this...

Al Gore says
the Earth has a fever, making the analogy that when a baby gets a fever, we take it to the doctor. We know what a baby's body temp. should be.

A simple question to global warming myrmadons:

What is Earth's temperature?

Also, how do we get it there and how do we keep it there?

If you can't answer these questions, then we are wasting our time with this bull squeeze!



Remember when?
Remember back in the '70s when these very same "scientists" were claiming that DDT needed to be banned? They were shouting that it caused cancer, that it destroyed bird eggs, that it did all kinds of harm to the environment.

Then ACTUAL scientists found that DDT DIDN'T cause cancer (The creator of DDT used to tour the country giving speeches where he'd actually eat spoonfuls of DDT. Years later he died...of old age, not cancer.) and they found its environmental impact was GROSSLY exaggerated.

Yet the "scientists" advocating against DDT persisted, and finally did get the UN to ban DDT. Ah, but an interesting thing happened. One of those so-called "scientists" let slip the ACTUAL intention for banning DDT in public. He said that the TRUE intention for banning DDT was because it was "an effective means of population control [in Africa]". They didn't want to ban DDT because it was harmful to the environment or because it could cause cancer, they wanted it banned because they knew a whole lot of "blackies" would die horrible deaths.

Decades later, after litterally HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Africans died those preventable horrible deaths, the United Nations FINALLY admitted the err of their way and has lifted the ban on DDT.

How many hundreds of millions, nay BILLIONS, of people will suffer misserable deaths that could have been prevented had we not listened to the junk scientists involved in the current kookery?

If you want to read a good
piece on global warming, pick up this years farmers alamac. It explains it as well as any.

SCAM FOR $$$ - YOURS AND MINE!!
The "global warming" hoax is perpetrated by the
same big government/higher tax/socialist-facist
people who want to put the WHOLE LOAD on the
backs of folks like you and me. Their agenda is:
"If we say it often enough and loud enough, all
the 'dumb sheep' will believe it..." HOW ELSE DO
YOU THINK A FOOL LIKE OBAMA GOT ELECTED?

The whole "greenhouse emission" deal is based on
FALSE SCIENCE which cannot stand up to scrutiny
in the light of TRUE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE! The
SCAM is for "CAP IN TRADE" to RIP OFF YOU AND ME
by REGULATING AND RESTRICTING our access to our
UTILITIES.

My only question is: HOW MUCH MORE OF THIS ARE
YOU GOING TO ALLOW, AND WHAT MEANS ARE AT OUR
DISPOSAL TO STOP THE BLEEDING???

SAVE THE HUMAN RACE
JOIN "HATE" NOW TO SAVE THE HUMAN RACE

.....TOWNHALLERS ....awhile back I founded "HATE"
(Humans ARE the Environment) to stem the tide of
eco-nuts and enviro-weirdos who are trying to destroy
the Human Race ...

.....The premise for this org. is that humans are
superior to tse tse flies and assorted vermin and that
humans should be in charge of things ...our mission is
to hunt and eat all endangered species ...in this way
we are helping nature do its job of ridding the Planet
of species that cannot adapt and thus should be
allowed to become extinct ...

.....Polar bears and seals and whales are an important
part of the food chain and should be hunted to feed
all the impoverished and hungry children in the world
...kangaroo rats should be trapped ...Delphi sands
flower loving flies should be swatted and California
gnats should be sprayed ...

.....Members of the Sierra Club and Peta should be
rounded up and confined to asylums infested with sand
fleas and chigger so that they can become one with Nature
.....COLOSSUS

Carbon a rationed poison or tax scam for
. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy, Barack Obama and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite. ( Also include Senator McCain in this attempt to be a Commissar of Combustion_

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen. All other gases< 1%. I doubt it makes much difference compared to solar activity. Another idea to consider , wouldn't you think the northern states like Michigan and Washington, as well as Canada and Russia would benefit with a longer growing seasons, perhaps more rainfall and lower heating cost? Perhaps a longer growing season in the grain regions of the world, more rainfall and lower heating cost would benefit humanity? It benefited Lief Erikson, Greenland and Europe in the 1300's

Saving Lives
There have been zero manmade ecological disasters in the United States. The worst, in fact only, ecological disasters are natural - volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, floods. No one died or even became sick during the Love Canal or ThreeMile Island episodes. There is no industrial pollution in the United States. There are no environment-polluting automobiles. The environmental movement was hijacked by the socialist/communist international movement. That has been a disaster for the wealth and well-being of US citizens. The EPA outlived its usefulness the day after it was created. It needs to be abolished.

inthemajority
is definitely in the running for dumbest troll on this site. It is too bad he didn't stay with his comrades in China.

What a miserable life it must be when you are a usefull idiot tool for the Left and you don't even know how you're being played.

How did our great country ever end up producing so many defective offspring like this?


State of Fear
Interesting article. I highly recommend the Michael Crichton thriller, State of Fear, if you'd like to see an interesting plot wrapped around this issue.

A little side note
There is some disagreement between some in the environmental crowd. Just about every place that has been proposed to build wind farms, is getting blocked by either congressional democrats or environmental groups.

To bad this doesn't get reported

Cal Thomas writes:
"One of the definitions of consensus is "general agreement or concord; harmony." Any honest assessment of scientific opinion leads to the conclusion that there is significant disagreement on global warming within the scientific community among those with expertise in climatology and related fields."
----------------------------------------------------
Consensus in scientific fields is determined through peer reviewed publications, not by columns posted on Townhall or appearances on The O'Reilly Factor.

Back in 2004, Science Magazine studied 928 papers published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003 that dealt with climate change. 75% explicitly endorsed the theory of global warming and the other 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on the issue. Unless someone can show where that has changed in the last five years, I would have to say there is still a consensus that global warming is happening.

camanintx
"Back in 2004, Science Magazine studied 928 papers published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003 that dealt with climate change. 75% explicitly endorsed the theory of global warming and the other 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on the issue. Unless someone can show where that has changed in the last five years, I would have to say there is still a consensus that global warming is happening."

===

I think the issue is not global warming, which all reputable scientists acknowledge is cyclical and can be shown true over small periods of time - say 10 to 20 years. The true issue that needs to be addressed is if said global warming is ANTHROPOMORPHIC in nature. On that issue the consensus is hardly as well formed as the Science Mag study would leave you to believe.

Read into the issue properly, don't just cherry pick. Global temps are definitely trending up, the question that can not be resolved - or proven for that matter - is: is the warming we are seeing anthropomorphic. Man-made global warming is a hoax used to line the pockets of carbon traders and politicians alike.

texas tea party, Reply # 10
A simple question to global warming myrmadons:

What is Earth's temperature?

Also, how do we get it there and how do we keep it there?

If you can't answer these questions, then we are wasting our time with this bull squeeze!
---------------------------------------------------
Do you realize that while Earth's mean global surface temperature (that would be the temperature where most of us spend our lives) has varied by as much as 10C over the past 400,000 years, human civilization has only existed in the last 20,000 years when temperatures have been a relatively stable +/- 2C?

While humans are capable of living in some rather extreme environments, most of the food upon which we base our existence will only grow if average temperatures remain in a fairly narrow range.

And it's not as if a 1C increase in the global average means that every place on Earth gets 1C warmer. Some places will get significantly warmer while others will actually get colder. Continued warming in the Arctic circle could actually lead to a mini ice age in Western Europe.

Life on Earth will most certainly survive whatever changes come it's way, but if you have any interest in humans being a part of that mix you should try to learn a little more about the possible consequences.

camanintx
"Back in 2004, Science Magazine studied 928 papers published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003"

And Science Magazine has itself admitted that it censored any contrary articles. They don't publish, nor acknowledge, any contrary articles. They have REPEATEDLY admitted this. In short, their "study", as they have admitted, is a scam, just like the GoreBull$h1t Warming kookery.

camanintx
While there may be a general consensus, there are substantial, legitimate detractors as well.

As a skeptic, I tend to think about money as an incentive. Do man-made global warming theory proponents have any financial incentives? And do theory skeptics experience any financial hardships as a result of their dissention?

Those factors must be taken into account by any rational person seeking to understand the debate.

#21 1:51pm
The study to which you are referring is the Oreskes study which has been thoroughly discredited. She only used a limited search criteria which resulted in the omission of thousands of other articles that were peer reviewed. There also was another study that captured all the peer-reviewed articles from the end of her requested time period until the present which was just done in the last year. The overwhelming results of the latest study show a majority of articles not supporting the claims of catastrophe.

Regardless, it is important to understand just what peer review is in climate science. These so-called reviews are only literature reviews. Unlike other disciplines where the scientific process is actually observed by reviewing data and trying to replicate the methods of the author, in climate science they only do a quick scan and indicate if they believe the article merits being published.

camanintz

The NAS review and Wegman studies of Mann's hockey stick from a couple of years ago indicated that the climate science community was a very closed group with the people doing peer reviews frequently having been co-authors with all the others many times in the past. This has created a very incestuous group not unlike a group of fraternity brothers who give the nod to those they like and blackball any outsider they don't like. Depending on peer review in this discipline is not valid.

There are no surveys or statements where supporters of AGW have signed on that demonstrate the consensus that is always claimed. The IPCC reports do not have any statement that the contributors sign on to. Their signatures only indicate that they have participated in the process in some manner. The chapter that claims man-made warming as a fact only had a total of 51 authors involved.

Why do you accept that, but completely reject the Oregon petiton of over 32,000 names or the Senate list of over 650. Or the increasing numbers of bonafide climate scientists stepping up and claiming the science doesn't support the ever-increasingly hysterical claims being made.

But, as Cal says, I'm sure none of this will change your mind or those of the other true believers.

Proudlib, Reply #22
I think the issue is not global warming, which all reputable scientists acknowledge is cyclical and can be shown true over small periods of time - say 10 to 20 years. The true issue that needs to be addressed is if said global warming is ANTHROPOMORPHIC in nature. On that issue the consensus is hardly as well formed as the Science Mag study would leave you to believe.
---------------------------------------------------
The Science Mag study actually said 75% were "either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view" which it defined at "the consensus of scientific opinion is that Earth's climate is being affected by human activities." So how exactly am I reading too much into it?
===================================================
Read into the issue properly, don't just cherry pick. Global temps are definitely trending up, the question that can not be resolved - or proven for that matter - is: is the warming we are seeing anthropomorphic. Man-made global warming is a hoax used to line the pockets of carbon traders and politicians alike.
---------------------------------------------------
While global temps have been trending up for the last 30 years, solar intensity has been dropping during the same period. That only leaves the greenhouse effect to account for this change. Of the major greenhouse gases, only CO2 has been increasing enough to account for the higher temperatures, and the extra CO2 can only be explained by anthropogenic causes. If you think that AGW is just a hoax, then I would have to disagree with you

PV, Reply # 26
The study to which you are referring is the Oreskes study which has been thoroughly discredited. She only used a limited search criteria which resulted in the omission of thousands of other articles that were peer reviewed. There also was another study that captured all the peer-reviewed articles from the end of her requested time period until the present which was just done in the last year. The overwhelming results of the latest study show a majority of articles not supporting the claims of catastrophe.
---------------------------------------------------
So where would one find this later study you are referring to?

PV, Reply #27
Why do you accept that, but completely reject the Oregon petiton of over 32,000 names or the Senate list of over 650. Or the increasing numbers of bonafide climate scientists stepping up and claiming the science doesn't support the ever-increasingly hysterical claims being made.
---------------------------------------------------
Because many of the names on the lists you reference have been shown to be misrepresentations of the person's actual views. Besides, I don't consider science to be a popularity contest where the view with the most votes wins.

The evidence for anthropomorphic global warming has been documented in several scientific studies. To discredit the theory, it is not enough to simply show where mistakes have been made, one must propose an alternate theory that explains the data better. As I outlined in reply #28 above, human CO2 emissions are the only cause that explains global temperature increases measured over the last 30 years.

Then the government needs to tell us
just why, in the 1970's, they made a huge deal about "GLOBAL COOLING. WE MUST ACT NOW!". Were they wrong then, or are they wrong now? I'm sure they'll admit neither.

Living in Idiotistan
At the risk of reprising almost en toto my previous post to a similar column about global warming.....GOOD FRICKIN GRIEF.

There is more credible evidence that space aliens have visited the Earth than there is about anthropogenic global warmining, much less the implication that global warming will cause cataclysmic to the biosphere. HELLO!!!! Dinosaurs lived just fine in a freaking sauna of an atmosphere for hundreds of millions of years!

Global warming to you liberal pinheads out there is like the UFO believer....You desperately want to believe, because it will fulfill all your fantasies about how humans are a virus on this planet, a sickness that should be destroyed.

I reserve my God-given right to call you a stupid idiot to your face, while you slink off nodding in shame, apologizing for helping Obama impose trillions of dollars in economy-destroying cap and trade policies.

Enough is enough already!

CO2 doesn't explain any changes
You are making a ridiculous supposition.
That is juvenile reasoning to say that because one factor doesn't explain something, then it must be another factor.

Your description of the solar changes or temperature changes are not accurate either.
Temps have only increased in two out of the last seven decades, all the while CO2 has been increasing. How is that possible if CO2 is driving the change.

Please, please, please share with me the evidence you have that empirically demonstrates the CO2 effect claimed. Computer projections arising from what are essentially "what ifs" are not evidence.

Here's what I think the big picture is:
I think it's all a government revenue raising scheme. They've ran out of ways of taxing us in every other area of our lives, so they come up with this garbage to sell to the American people, like it or not.
"Hey, we could make a lot of money with this global warming thing!".
I think the incredibly high gas prices last summer were all deliberate, by our government.
"Hey, they have to have gas, so let's raise some money that way!". I think those same gas prices are back on the way this summer, to a gas station near you. And get ready, mr. president is talking about new grocery/food taxes, new energy taxes, new taxes on the automobile industry, taxes taxes everywhere. This is coming out of YOUR pocket and mine. Sooner or later, this man will want to impose an oxygen tax on all Americans. If you don't pay your oxygen tax, then we're gonna have to take your oxygen away.

Where does it end?!

Isn't it strange?
How every single time you hear about global warming, the next thing you know there's a picture of some melted, floating ice? Sometimes with the polar bears, sometimes without. Always melted, floating ice. Is Townhall.com in on the propoganda?

Camanintz
Your hypothesis is based on climate being driven by an enhanced greenhouse effect resulting from increasing emissions by humans.
This implies that radiation is being absorbed that is building up latent heat in the system.

Over the last 10 years, and especially the last several, all available metrics show that we are losing heat, not gaining it. Surface temps are flat to declining, tropospheric temps have declined, and the oceans are losing heat. Unless you have some other laws of physics we don't know about, we can't be building up heat in the system that can't be found.

The AGW hypothesis doesn't even qualify to be called a theory because no part of it has ever been supported by real world evidence. It is actually increasingly being falsified.

Believe if you want, but your belief has nothing to do with science.

Many so-called . . .
"environMENTALists" are charlatans and criminals who should be exposed for what they are. Their track record of phony "environMENTal disasters" speaks for itself.
No one would disagree that the Exxon Valdez oil spill was hazardous to wildlife (in the short term). The areas that were steam cleaned actually took LONGER to recover than those left alone.
The "lynx fur" setup in the Pacific northwest was perpetrated by "government biologists" to put land off-limits to logging (without having to purchase it).
environMENTALists have an agenda that has no real basis in "wildlife preservation". It is about comunist style CONTROL.
These limp-wristed, birkenstock wearing "bunny huggers" only know what is spoon fed to them by their phony environMENTAL organizations. They get their "information" while in their san francisco condos. They have NO real conception of true wildlife conditions.
For once, I would like to see a greenpeace boat destroyed (with all their occupants) by a fishing vessel that is being harassed.
Another problem with these "environMENTAL types" is that they do not regard HUMANS as part of the equation and look upon us as a pestilence.
Since environMENTALism is looked upon as a "religion" of the first order (GAIA or earth worship), the prohibition against government entanglement with religion should apply.

Global Warming = Mercantilism
Disappointing, but not surprising, is the idea many of you set forth; that the United States government is the source of the global warming hyperbole. And you're DEAD WRONG.

The fraud is being lobbied by those established corporations here and abroad who want laws to define future market trends and, subsequently, ensure theire profitability as those laws force consumers to spend their monies appropriately.

It's all about conformity. Market liberty and freedom will create new wealth and new competition for aging Cold War and energy corporations; market fascism will ensure the prominence for those same obselete, nearly useless NGOs.

It's time for a revolution in this country, and it should involved much more than just overturning trends in politics; it's time to tell the multi-nationals that we're in charge, and they need to go away!

Joey
Isn't it also interesting how every single problem the Left can come up with (Global Warming only being the current subject of discussion)is from individuals exercising their freedom. And every solution is always enlarging the scope of government and taking away individual freedom. Funny how that works isn't it.

Buckelew
Some of what you say is correct, but you are a little extreme. Business is pragmatic and many of them will always be rent-seekers. They believe government regulation is inevitable so they try to position themselves to make the best of it.

They also, to steal someone else's saying,
try to get a seat at the table to make sure they are not on the menu.

That said, I completely agree with your comments about the NGOs.

camanintx says:
"Life on Earth will most certainly survive whatever changes come it's way, but if you have any interest in humans being a part of that mix you should try to learn a little more about the possible consequences."

Me:
Learn more from whom?? Science magazine, who shuts out contrary opinion??
Why should I believe a movement led by a man - Al Gore - that says the debate is over and refuses to debate anyone, when the debate hasn't even started. The science teachers I had in college, always told me that if anyone says the debate is over in science, a red flag should go up.

If he's so sure of his position, why should he refuse to debate??




PV
Thanks.

Allowing corporations (energy companies, banks, multinationals, public-private partnerships, etc.) to create the conditions and restrictions that define the future markets, by force of law, is what's extreme.

I'll take the lumps that come with genuine freedom and liberty -- the opportunity to work with the frames of good laws versus bad ones -- any day over the unethical, incestuous, conflicted situations arising from scams like the global warming context. Many of the pushers ought be in jail.

Global Warming for you and me not them
While you all discuss the scientific evidence for and against global warming, I have noticed that the remedy for GW rests with you and me...not them.

It doesn't rest with algore and his 10,000 sq ft home and the carbon foot print he is so concerned about, the jets he scoots around the globe in...by the way does he drive a hybrid Prius????

It doesn't rest with Barry and the heat in the Oval Office...only your and my thermostat needs to be regulated

It doesn't rest with Barry's gas guzzling vehicles or his jet trips for every paparrazi opportunity he can think up...

It doesn't rest with Nancy Pelosi and her jet jaunts across the US...she could take a smaller one and have a stop over if the GW issue is so imperative

It doesn't rest with Hillary and all the SUV's in her entourage...couldn't they all be driving hybrids...and her and Barry's cars wouldn't all be black...the color they want to outlaw in CA so that it doesn't take so much energy in A/C to cool the vehicle

So folks, this catastrophic issue of the earthly meltdown rests with you and I to recify...we have to turn down our heat, shut off our lights, drive a white car, conserve and preserve, watch our carbon footprint...

You and me...not them!



Laura, you're exactly right
Al justifies his gigantic footprint because he buys indulgences (oops, I mean carbon offsets)to offset his extravagance. Some poor dirt farmer in India, barely surviving, needs to manually pedal a wheel to irrigate his field, but this provides a credit so Al can not only heat his swimming pool, but the sidewalk leading out to it.

If CO2 is the culprit they claim, and poses the mortal danger to the planet, why is it okay for the elite to emit it while the rest of us are supposed to restrain our already meager amounts?

This is as if a poison is being dumped in a river that is going to kill us all. But Al can continue dumping his poison in as long as you and I reduce our amount.

How can any sane, reasonable, and above all, honest person tolerate any of this from our elites. How can anyone buy into this nonsense?

It's natural
Everyone needs to review the earths history. There have always been natural cooling and heating cycles. Ice core samples show this to be true. Greenland used to be green, hence it's name. It no longer is due to cooling over the years. What caused the last ice age to end??? Eskimo's cooking whale blubber over open fires? We better start writing our senators and congressmen immediately. Life as we know it will end in this country if they are allowed to perpetrate this scam.

Crisis makes tyrants
All hail the one. Remember the oceans will begain to recede, and the earth to heal. Folks this is but the beginning.
Kirk

PV
that's why I think a lot of it is a left wing ideology that demonizes man...

It is also the new religion...the virtuous will hail GW and do "penance" by offering up sacrifices to their god...mother earth.

Don't get me wrong...I am not proposing that we should wantonly pollute...we have an obligation and a responsibility to be good stewards of the earth...

That being said...this hype is just another vehicle of control...for you and me--not them.

It is yet another method of restricting our liberties and rights while they, the elite who know more than we do, are allowed to do whatever they want with no accountability or restriction. We will be riding in rickshaws while they jet around the globe...

algore is full of it...his home uses more power than 30 average homes use for a year so who is he kidding...certainly not me...I think it is sweet that every time he goes to DC in the winter to spew global warming manifesto...it snows...there is a God and he's got a great sense of humor!




Man made global warming myth
Anyone with half a brain and a modest knowledge of thermodynamics would see that the global warming hysteria is a ruse to push a socialist agenda on the developed countries.

The Earth's climate is a very stable system when looked at over time. Changes take place but there are very few if any violent swings. Carbon dioxide comprimises only 800 parts per million of the Earth's atmosphere. Changes in such a trace gas can't cause the whole system to go out of wack. It just doesn't happen that way. Water vapor and clouds make up 95% of the Earth's greenhouse gasses and that is good otherwise the Earth's climate would be more like Mars.

All these climate change models are just that models. They are not fact. But our Congressional leaders with little to no scientific training can be fooled into believing the man made global warming myth by dishonest scientists with a hidden agenda.

It's time to stop the madness before they destroy this country. I say anybody concerned about their C02 emmissions and carbon footprint(whatever the hell that is) should stop breathing and help the planet if they are so convinced that C02 is harmful.

John

PV, Reply # 33
CO2 doesn't explain any changes
You are making a ridiculous supposition.
That is juvenile reasoning to say that because one factor doesn't explain something, then it must be another factor.

Your description of the solar changes or temperature changes are not accurate either.
Temps have only increased in two out of the last seven decades, all the while CO2 has been increasing. How is that possible if CO2 is driving the change.

Please, please, please share with me the evidence you have that empirically demonstrates the CO2 effect claimed. Computer projections arising from what are essentially "what ifs" are not evidence.
---------------------------------------------------
Here is a link to a simple explanation of the relationship between solar activity, fossil fuel use (the primary source of anthropogenic CO2) and global temperatures.

http://tinyurl.com/cayaj2

As you can see from Figures 2 and 4, neither solar activity or CO2 alone can explain changes in global temperatures but when you combine the two you get a remarkable correlation.

Now I know you are going to say this contradicts what I said before about CO2 causing global warming, but it doesn't. If you look at the last 50 years, you will see that solar activity and global temperatures don't correlate much at all. In fact, for the last 20 years solar activity has dropped while temperatures continue to rise.

You will also note that none of what is presented here is based on computer models, just raw, hard data. He even links to the source of this data so you can do the analysis yourself. So before you tell me again that my beliefs are unfounded, I would appreciate an explanation of where this analysis fails.

To put it into perspective...
Measurements of the climate have occurred only over the past, what, let's be generous 150 years. The Earth -- which SCIENCE has pointed out -- has undergone climate fluctuations over its 4 billion year existence. Spread out that 4 billion years over 200 football fields end to end, one inch per year hashmarks. Look at what we're using to gauge our supposed cataclysmic climate change. You would be on the last 150 hashmarks of the 200th football field!! Hey, knock my math if you want, but it is just plain INSANE to infer catastrophic impact by using the most infinitesimal fraction of the earth's existence. No? Someone school me then!

democracy
i think that those that believe in global warming should pay the taxes to counter it. those that don't, should not and live happily ever after. we could then spend that money on real problems.

just words, just speeches,
roy

Mr. President
Two months and two major catastrophes. Leaves me wondering where the Dimwhits are and why they aren't blaming Mother Nature's fury on this president???

Mike, Reply # 45
Everyone needs to review the earths history. There have always been natural cooling and heating cycles. Ice core samples show this to be true. Greenland used to be green, hence it's name. It no longer is due to cooling over the years. What caused the last ice age to end??? Eskimo's cooking whale blubber over open fires? We better start writing our senators and congressmen immediately. Life as we know it will end in this country if they are allowed to perpetrate this scam.
---------------------------------------------------
Would you please educate us on Earth's history and describe what human civilization was like back when global temperatures were just 5 degrees cooler than they are today?

CamaninTx
A lot has changed since 2004.

Human life has existed on this planet for at least 3 million years.

There is no concensus, there never was. It is one the single largest lies ever manufactured.

The doom and gloom that Gore and Co. promote is exaggerated by hundreds of times.

Science evolves. That is why the real scientists are expressing their skeptism.

The peer-review process is weak - proven by many. The Mann "Hockey Stick", which is at the core of the AGW debate, was debunked, and is an example of how weak the peer-review process is.

Surface temps rise while the temps in the troposphere do not - a sign of something other than AGW.

To be able to feed the world's expected population by 2050 CO2 levels will have to rise 2x to 3x so that agriculture yields can increase without needing increase in water.

Climate's negative feedback mechanisms appear to be stronger than the positive feedback mechanisms.

None of the doom and gloom is occurring as predicted by the 2001 UN IPCC. In fact, the IPCC continues to reduce their predictions as they learn more.

Because CO2 has increased at a linear rate (not exponential) the oceans will now put the earth into a 30 - 50 year global cooling period.

The other side of the debate is quite compelling.


CamaninTx
Greenland was farmed from 800 to 1400 AD. Then gobal temps decreased, and those living on Greenland went back to where they came from.

We are in the middle of the glacial period. What we are experiencing is natural.

Again - study both sides of the debate. I think you will come to the conclusion that the sky is NOT falling, and that simple (and much less costly) adaptation mechanisms will suffice.

StevenJames, Reply #54
"The peer-review process is weak - proven by many. The Mann "Hockey Stick", which is at the core of the AGW debate, was debunked, and is an example of how weak the peer-review process is."
---------------------------------------------------
There are a number of other temperature reconstructions which support the "Hockey Stick". I don't recall anyone debunking them all.

http://tinyurl.com/6y3b37
===================================================
"The other side of the debate is quite compelling."
---------------------------------------------------
Can you provide any links to these compelling arguments or do you expect me to just take your word for it?

CamaninTx
Concerning your link tinyurl.com/cayaj2

First - global temps are very difficult to measure.

The best temp records reside in the USA - and the temp profile for USA when properly accounting for Urban Heat Island effect are flat - no warming trend.

The troposphere is not warming.

During the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 many high latitude (Siberia) temp stations were closed which put an upward bias on the 1990's decade temp record.

Global cyclone activity is not increasing in frequency or strength. The increase activity in the Atlantic is due to a natural ocean current shift - likely driven by a stong La Nina.

CO2 is rising at 1/2 the rate the IPCC predicts.

Sea level rise increased during the 20th century at the same rate it did during the 19th century - about 1 foot. The IPCC predicts another 1 foot rise by 2100 -- not the 20+ feet rise by Gore and Hansen.

CamaninTx
Enjoy (In the epw.senate.gov site there is a list of 700 skeptical scientists - among other things.)

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/category/health -effects/ozone/

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority. Blogs

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/

http://www.co2science.org/index.php

http://www.realclimate.org/



camanintx
"While global temps have been trending up for the last 30 years, solar intensity has been dropping during the same period. That only leaves the greenhouse effect to account for this change. Of the major greenhouse gases, only CO2 has been increasing enough to account for the higher temperatures, and the extra CO2 can only be explained by anthropogenic causes. If you think that AGW is just a hoax, then I would have to disagree with you"

While I realize arguing with someone whose mind is so closed it may as well be cramped between horns and a skull inches thick, I would point out to you that your above quote has zero basis in reality. Solar activity INCREASED steadily for that period until 1998, when solar activity began decreasing, and global temperatures decreased with it. Better get used to the cold because reputable studies predict a less active sun for the next 40 years.

Second, it is fairly apparent that you've swallowed Al Bore's CO2 argument without checking his assertions on your own. CO2 levels are a RESULT of warming and cooling, not a cause. It is proven through ice core sampling that CO2 levels lag behind temperature changes by approximately 800 years; the length of time that a warming or cooling ocean takes to release/reabsorb the gas. Gore's graphs coincide because he intentionally and disengenuously neglects to mention that they are not reflective of real time.

Third; human produced CO2 amounts to about three hundreths of one percent of total CO2 in the atmosphere. Every time a volcano burps it releases more CO2 than humans have put into the air in 100 years.


science fact continued

Four; follow the money. Your AGW messiah has used his scaremongering to make over $300million. The companies set up to moniter and handle the cap and trade business are in large part owned by him and a few associates, and do not issue publicly available stock. They stand to make BILLIONS if they can shove their scam down our throats, while B.O. and his fascistic puppet masters can effectively destroy our constitutional system of government to their own advantage.

You are slitting your own throat by supporting this agenda. That wouldn't bother me so much if you weren't slitting mine, and my posterity's too.

CamaninTx
Also - good reads:

"Cool It" by Bjorn Lomborg (A Danish Economist)

Lomborg is likely the most sensible on the matter.

"Red Hot Lies" by Chris Horner

"Climate of Extremes" by Michaels and Balling

"Climate Confusion" by Roy Spencer

If you open your mind to the other side of the debate you will become quite angry at what Gore and Hansen have been pushing.

Corndog reply#6
Amen to that brother!

Camanintex

Why is Mars warming up? Is that where all the missing CO2 build up forecasted back in the 1990's vanished to?

StevenJames, Reply #57
"First - global temps are very difficult to measure.

The best temp records reside in the USA - and the temp profile for USA when properly accounting for Urban Heat Island effect are flat - no warming trend."
---------------------------------------------------
I agree that they are difficult to measure but you are attempting to extrapolate global mean temperatures from about 1.5% of the total Earth's surface area. Since we know that temperature changes are not uniform over the globe, how can this be more reliable then extrapolating from readings taken around the globe, even with incomplete coverage?

The one thing that is left
I have to force my family to freeze in the Winter because fossil fuels have been banned and electricity is for the politically connected and carbon traders.
I can't buy enough food because it is too expensive because of the carbon tax and environmentalists that say plants and animals have rights to.
I can't go fishing to feed my family because I cannot gain permission from the state to gain access to a water way.
My children cannot play on the beach because humans have been banned to only certain times of the year which is mainly in Winter and its too cold.
I can't find work because my boss was jailed because he didn't have the money to pay the carbon tax and the government confiscated his business to pay the tax and no one wanted to be forced to join the union so we just walked home because fossil fuels banned, and electric cars batteries can't be recharged because of the rolling blackouts that are more permanent than rolling.
This is the future people, you have to decide do you want liberty or do you want tyranny, and I willing to die fighting for for liberty than live under the oppressive jackbooted Obama acolytes.

Solve the CO2 crisis by leading
Until the global warming and CO2 believers lead by giving up their private jets, 10,000 square foot mansions, limousines, etc, there is no leadership in the issue. So, show us how it is done and then we will consider changing.

All you wish to do otherwise is increase energy costs in this country and use carbon as a new tax.

CamaninTx
CO2 concentrations are relatively equal across the globe. If rising CO2 is causing temp increase it should increase for all, not just part of the globe.

It is very likely that temp record adjustments for Urban Heat Island are overstating real surface temps.

Or, that natural causes are quite a bit larger than CO2, still a trace gas.

conservativeman
It can all be settled with one word - Secession.

I don't mean WE secede - we recognize that many others have already seceded as they choose NOT to follow the Constitution.

StevenJames, Reply #55
"Greenland was farmed from 800 to 1400 AD."
----------------------------------------------------
Global mean temperatures in that period were about 0.5C lower than they are today. That is no where near the 5C difference which Mike seemed to think was acceptable in Reply #45.

Al Gore
If Al Gore is worried about 20 to 40 feet sea level rise then why did he buy a house on the SF Bay - just a few feet above sea level.

This is nothing more than an attempt to take more control of your life because they believe that you are not smart enough to make decisions for yourself - or, that your decisions are not the ones they want you to make.

Alternative energy is not profitable, and lower cost - at any scale. If it were Wall Street would have been falling over themselves to fund it.

The simple fact that alternative energy kooks have to sel their ideas to Pennsylvania Ave, and not Wall Street should be a sign that it is not the best alternative at the moment.

EPA: Dry up the "wetlands"
Since 95% of "greenhouse gases" is water vapor, shouldn't the EPA be reducing the evaporation of water by eliminating so-called "wetlands"?

StevenJames, Reply #67
"CO2 concentrations are relatively equal across the globe. If rising CO2 is causing temp increase it should increase for all, not just part of the globe."
---------------------------------------------------
That is not what the climate experts are saying.

http://tinyurl.com/cfmx4y

Some areas will rise more than others. Some area like Western Europe may even cool significantly if the North Atlantic Subtropical Gyre shuts down.

Climate change
Causes high temps, low temps, extreme weather. I wonder why there was so many hurricanes and flooding last year. Oh yeah, it was due to climate change. Extreme environmentalists need to get a life but by saying it was cold this year in like putting your head in the sand and not listening the real experts. Saying climate change is false is as dumb as saying the earth is only 5000 years old.

CamaninTx
The debate on how high the temps were in MWP is still being debated. Some believe they were higher than today, but not much.

A 5C increase would be very high, yet all indication is that the negative feedback mechanisms in the climate would never allow it to get that high.

By the time a 5C temp increase was even possible we will have run out of fossil fuels by a few centuries and will be using Nuclear and Solar as primary fuel source as they would be (likely) less costly than shale oil.

It is very likely that we are entering another 500+ year period of warmer temps (2C-3C over 15C average) - another MWP.

And it probably has more to do with the oceans, earth's orbit and sun intensity more than anything else.

CamaninTx
Pick your experts. Michaels and Balling point out that concentrations are equal across the globe.

The oceans at the moment are emitting more CO2 than they absorb - and they do comprise 70% of the surface.

Camanintx
While I hardly agree with a thing you say, I appreciate your efforts at using rational thought to support your views. Hopefully, I can do the same.

Excluding solar as a driver does not automatically support CO2 as you seem to imply.
Those who dismiss solar as a dominant effect only consider TSI and overlook the solar winds and magnetism. These additional aspects are theorized to influence cloud formation (or lack thereof) which changes albedo either allowing more radiation to reach the surface, or reflecting it back into space.

I find a combination of solar effects and ocean current distribution (which really is a lagging solar effect) to be the primary driver of climate. Study the PDO, NAO, and AMO cycles and you will see almost perfect correlations with the ups and downs in temperature.

There are so many holes in the CO2-driven hypothesis because of its limited capacity to do what is attributed to it.

Tyler
Get your facts straight. Hurricane and tropical cyclone activity reached a record low in 2008 for the period of 1980 to 2008.

Global cyclone activity has not changed up or down with the exception of the Atlantic - and this is a result of a naturally and well documented ocean current shift.

CamaninTx
More good reads:

From the Hoover Institution, Stanford Univ.

Henry Miller
Thomas Sowell
Tibor Machan

Oceans drive climatic change
Oceans have immensely greater heat-storing capacity than the atmosphere or land surface.

IR or long-wave radiation from the "greenhouse effect" can only penetrate 2mm into the oceans surface (this is the thickness of a dime). UV or short-wave radiation from the sun can penetrate to almost 100m. The ocean captures this radiation, stores it, and carries it around the earth distributing it in various ways. Because of this dynamic between solar intensity and ocean storage, there is a lagging effect and time difference between the two. The oceans act like a thermos bottle.

The sun can have a change in its intensity that doesn't manifest itself in climate (up or down) for decades because of this relationship.

PV
Good stuff.

Where can I go to learn more?

Another Oldie but Goodie
Does anyone remember the imminent threat of acid rain that was going to defoliate the planet and asphyxiate us all?

One Last Post before I have to go
Consider the difference between temperate regions with humidity and deserts.

Even though CO2 is supposedly a well-mixed gas in the atmosphere its effects are notably different in these two regions.

In the desert it gets immensely hot during the day only to quickly get very cold at night. In temperate and humid regions, such as New England, it doesn't get nearly as warm during the day, but at night much of the heat is retained.

Water vapor, rather than CO2 accounts for the difference in response. In the winter in New England, if it is clear it will get very cold but if there are clouds it will stay warmer. Again, water vapor and not CO2 accounts for the difference.

I think this is a very telling reason why CO2 isn't the temperature-driving vehicle it is claimed to be.

StevenJames
There are many really good sites out there.
Watts Up With That is excellent, Junkscience.com also sometimes has links to other great sites.

I believe I saw the information about the ocean at a site called CO2Skeptic.com

Google thermos bottle effect. The author's name started with Steve but I forget his last name. It really is very thought-provoking though and seems to make a lot of sense.

PV
One of the 700 "deniers" on Inhofe's list made an interesting observation.

Most AGW "deniers" tend to be Geologists and Geophysicist because they have a greater appreciation for how large a role the oceans, earth's orbit, and solar forcings have on climate.

I recal my father - a geophysicist - first instinct about global warming back in the late 80's (why we came out of the 1970's cooling) was that the earth must have moved on it axis.

The earth wobbles as it orbits the Sun. Some believe that a 1 degree move on its axis created the las glacial period for the Northern Hempisphere.

Just a few thoughts...

GLOBULL BS
If Globull Warming is caused by man and CO2 then why does it shut down when Winter comes along. WE still drive all those gas sucking vehicles during the winter also. Does Al GORE have a switch setting for that.

I recall in thew 70s you LIBERAL PUKES pushed GLOBULL COOLING on America and made a killing , so now you want to push GLOBULL Warming on America for what. just becuase your FAT A$$ EX-VP WANTS TO PUNISH America because he couldnt win an ELECTION.

I noticed he wouldnt debate the Eurpoean President over Globull WARMING,
Where was the Media when all those Scientist who claim GLOBULL WARMING is a HOAX that was held at the Globull Warming debate in Washington,DC

I can tell you ,NO WHERE TO BE FOUND because LARD A$$ had told them its PROVEN SCIENCE.

YEA IT HAS PROVEN ONE THING TO AMERICANS .. it has MADE LARD A$$ RICH
Just another TYPICAL LIE A$$ LIBERAL LOSER

Con Circus
There is a strong correlation between Conservatives, hatred for higher education, and lack of science knowledge. One scan though posts dealing with science and you can see why Cons think higher education is Liberal. It appears they are avoiding science classes entirely.

Can you imagine being the only student in the science lab who gets the same results as the other 99 students, only to refute the results right before their eyes and make stuff up?

We have some Cons who think CO2 is too trace in the atmosphere to be a greenhouse gas! We have Cons believing in the science of 1% of the scientists, but distrust the other 99%. We have Cons who believe results funded by ExxonMobile are more trustworthy that results from peer reviewed science (i.e., real science).

Dover PA will most certainly be lacking in the science department -- too many parents thinking the Bible explains anything scientific. Maybe belief in creation myths is a big part of the problem.

gatorbait
Get your head out of the sand. Winter is winter u clown.

This President
Two months and two major catastrophes. Leaves me wondering where the Dimwhits are and why they aren't blaming Mother Nature's fury on this president???

Re: Inthemajority
Your point is that it's more important to be popular than right. So far, all I've seen from your side is predictions... our side has actual, factual data. Science is based on facts the last time I checked!

Tyler
Global average surface temps have declined from 2001 to 2008 at a 2C decrease per century. The lowest (least warming) IPCC prediction in 2001 was 2.4C increase.

This doesn't get much time with the MSM.

tyler
NO SH1T, do you mean to tell me that when winter rolls around all off a sudden your FAT EX VP LIB LOSWER turns a switch off./

PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEE

Get your head out of GORES A$$

inthemajority
Your assumptions are wrong!

Conservatives want higher education. They thrive on it. Without it we wouldn't be making the money we do.

The peer review process is weak. You know it is so stop denying it. It's a "grant" thing. Tow the line and you get the cash.

Government sends out $6 billion each year to fund science (fiction) - very little gets into the hands of so-called deniers.

And, your ExxonMobil comment is tired - overused. Typical tactic of the far-left - can't support your case with facts then resort to name calling and smear tactics.


It can't be called science
if it can't be tested, verified through historical trends, or supported in any way other than by manipulated computer models. It can't be called science when the proponents of a half-baked theory adamantly refuse to debate their theory with experts in the field.

Even if there were any merits to the arguments of AGW theory it would still be immoral and unethical and radically authoritarian to try and implement political policy by force (and liberals are all too aware that government IS force) without having ever engaged in ANY sort of substantive debate on the issue.

Contrary to St. Al's sputtering contention, the debate is NOT over. The debate has not yet even occured, because AGW proponents don't have the guts or the science to debate it.

inthemajority
You are the silliest little boy. You think all of life is a game of playground dodgeball. You reason like a child, haven't an original thought in your head, you're all testosterone and not an ounce of brain. Pretending to reason and have anything resembling a background for all the boneheaded nonsense that comes dribbling out of you must feel good to you somehow, but I think you'd find actual masturbation a bit more satisfying in the long run.

Some Lessons Harder Than Others
20 years from now we will all look back at this AGW thing and wonder what the hell were we thinking...

Hey Tyler
I have noticed that there is no outrage from LIBS as to why FEMA hasnt been called up top help those poor people up north fighting that flood.

Boy if BUSH was still POTUS the DRIVE BY MEDIA would be all over him.

Oh I forgot, Obama hasnt had time to step away from that TELEPROMPTOR and TELLING bold face lies to the American people yet.

MY BAD

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

PV, Reply # 76
While I hardly agree with a thing you say, I appreciate your efforts at using rational thought to support your views. Hopefully, I can do the same.
---------------------------------------------
Thank you. Holding a civilized debate on this board seems to be rare.

=============================================
Excluding solar as a driver does not automatically support CO2 as you seem to imply.
---------------------------------------------
I am not dismissing it, just pointing out that other forces appear to be dominating it.

=============================================
Those who dismiss solar as a dominant effect only consider TSI and overlook the solar winds and magnetism.
---------------------------------------------
The first link I found comparing temperature to solar wind is this one.

http://tinyurl.com/cqphcz

There doesn't appear to be any correlation between the raw data points in Figure 3. Even after extensive manipulation of the data, Figure 15 only shows a correlation up to 1980, just as with solar intensity. Sorry, but I don't see how this disproves the effects of CO2.

=============================================
I find a combination of solar effects and ocean current distribution (which really is a lagging solar effect) to be the primary driver of climate. Study the PDO, NAO, and AMO cycles and you will see almost perfect correlations with the ups and downs in temperature.
---------------------------------------------
Since the PDO, NAO and AMO cycles only move heat around the planet, how do they contribute to any rise or fall in the global mean temperature?

=============================================
There are so many holes in the CO2-driven hypothesis because of its limited capacity to do what is attributed to it.
---------------------------------------------
The greenhouse effect is responsible for a 33 C increase in the Earth's surface temperature. If CO2 is responsible for 20%, how is that "limited"?

gatorbait, Reply # 85
If Globull Warming is caused by man and CO2 then why does it shut down when Winter comes along.
---------------------------------------------
Be sure to take your winter clothes with you if you ever visit Australia in December then.

inthemajority, so you think PV
and StevenJames demonstrate some lack of intellectual rigor; that their arguments are without basis and show no research? You and camanintx can't take the heat of debate without resorting to snarky retorts. That would count as Exhibit A of someone who is without depth in their argument, so they resort to name-calling.

BTW, what are you doing to limit your exhalation of CO2? Every little bit counts, right?

camanintx
Dont need to go to Australia, I live in Fl and we had one of our coldest winters in years and Im still driving MY BIG GAS SUCKING SUV

By the way how do they shut down GLOBULL WARMING in the winter, I see they had record snowfall up North. Just wondering what those people would be saying to you about GLOBULL WARMING and all the money they had to spend on keeping GLOBULL WARMING from freezing them to death.

GLOBULL WARMING IS GLOBULL BULLSH!T.

Tommy #94
LOL! While I just criticized ITM for less-than-rigorous debate, sometimes you just need to call a spade a spade.

You and Speed39 join stevenJames and PV as some of the best, well-reasoned posts on the subject.

ALL BULL NO BRAINS
Liberals say it is so, therefore it is so. Even after their lies are disproven with reality and truth, they will come back with "even though the facts disprove us, our message is the correct one."

We had the wealth to clean up our messes, most other countries can't or wont. When Omabination is done most people will be scurrying around looking for wood to make charcoal (like half of Africa) or riding around in beat up pickups with machine guns. HOPE & CHANGE you betcha...

As for inthemajority, you hypocrite your burning up your carbon credits here when you should be in a mud hut eating grubs you superscientific intellect. (He's probably wearing his onesy jammies mommie bought at Walmart last week!) Log off and come eat sweetie, mommy made some nice hot soup on this cold rainy day!!!

Cal
Thanks again for another great read. Even if the heads of climate related sciences didn`t diagree with the GW frauds, trends of the frauds would. East European soc/com malcontents came to the US with their environmentalist ideas. Their mantra; "protect the environment WHILE destroying human life". In the `70`s, it was the "coming ice age" but few bought into it, so in the early 80`s it became "global warming". People fell for that one big time. What get`s no mention is a little "oops" that occured last year around the end of summer. One of the heads of the GW movement, apparently not realizing his microphone was still on, said to his cohorts (paraphrasing),"since the evidence does not support the notion of man-made GW and the agenda is so important, we must come up with a new, more all-inclusive name; climate change." The adherants will never explain or debate, only yell and call doubters names. Some nations which have been dutifully paying their offset-type payments for years have realized all they see now are their empty pockets, fatcats with full pockets and no environmental change. They are beginning to refuse to pay. Trends do it just fine for me. Add in the facts from the TOPS in their fields who will gladly debate, I`m convinced, climate change is a naturally occuring cyclical series of events that are controlled more by the sun than anything on earth, excluding of course those natural disasters which man has NO control over. Keep your powder dry folks, the left will try WHATEVER IT TAKES to gain control over every possible aspect of our lives!! Open your eyes, all ye who doubt!!

SignPainterGuy
What our little mindless liberals also don't know is that "science" can be just as full of cupidity as anything else! Our universities churn out Ph.D.'s with a regularity that most resembles regular bowel movements.

We are so overstocked with scientists we don't know what to do with them. So there they are, having to struggle for light and air like juvenile plants under the jungle canopy. So what do they do? They look around for grants, for funding to keep them somehow in their labs while they kiss enough tenured butt in their desperate truggle to obtain lifegiving tenure. They see that there is money to be made by lying politicians by proving "global warming." Big money. Lots of it. And the bloated politicians are doling it out by the truckload in order to amass enough scientific "concensus" to push their agendas through a gullible public and thereby assure their ill-gotten fortunes. (No greater example that that bloated and bloviating failure Al Gore - still trying to earn the approval of his long dead father).

So, the Circle of Money revolves - more grant money if you as a scientist "prove" global warming, and more political clout if you as a politician can buy yourself some scientific legitiamcy. It's a vast and repellent circle jerk of mendacdity, and requires for its completion only mindless idiots like "inthemajority" and "camanintx" to complete the picture - useful idiots ready to pick up their pitchforks and firebrands and terrorize any and all who would stray from this new and obscene religion created by the offal stew of money and liberal (read: fascist) politics.

It''s an old story, only the trolls on here are too young and stupid to know it. They think it's all new and thrilling - exactly the same buttheads cynical radicals always use as cannon fodder to absorb the bullets while they sit in their bunkers comfortably worm their way into positions of dictatorship.

SignPainterGuy, Reply # 103
Thanks again for another great read.
---------------------------------------------
You're welcome, I think.

=============================================
In the `70`s, it was the "coming ice age" but few bought into it, so in the early 80`s it became "global warming".
---------------------------------------------
This is an urban legend. Please stop repeating it.

http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/

=============================================
One of the heads of the GW movement, apparently not realizing his microphone was still on, said to his cohorts (paraphrasing),"since the evidence does not support the notion of man-made GW and the agenda is so important, we must come up with a new, more all-inclusive name; climate change."
---------------------------------------------
Me thinks this is another urban legend, or you just made it up.

=============================================
The adherants will never explain or debate, only yell and call doubters names.
---------------------------------------------
There are plenty of explanations out there if you are only willing to open your eyes. No one is going to force feed you anything. Science is debated in peer reviewed journals, not on Townhall or The O'Reilly Factor. Judging from this forum, deniers are just as prone to yelling and name calling as adherents.

DocInsight, Reply # 99
inthemajority, so you think PV
and StevenJames demonstrate some lack of intellectual rigor; that their arguments are without basis and show no research? You and camanintx can't take the heat of debate without resorting to snarky retorts. That would count as Exhibit A of someone who is without depth in their argument, so they resort to name-calling.

BTW, what are you doing to limit your exhalation of CO2? Every little bit counts, right?
---------------------------------------------
Hypocrisy, thy name is DocInsight.

StevenJames, Reply # 58
Enjoy (In the epw.senate.gov site there is a list of 700 skeptical scientists - among other things.)

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/category/health -effects/ozone/

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority. Blogs

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/

http://www.co2science.org/index.php

http://www.realclimate.org/
---------------------------------------------
Finally got some time to look at these and I'm not really sure what you're trying to show. The first four are blogs that link to various arguments against AGW but don't try to provide a better theory. Maybe you could find something a little more direct and concise like the link I provided earlier.

http://tinyurl.com/cayaj2

Heartache For Rush Haters

Hmmmm... Rush's ratings have skyrocketed while Mugabe's are looking for a bottom.

http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2009/03/rush-limbaugh-ta lk-radio-experience.html


Sorry, Kleenex are not included.

CamaninTx
The better theory is natural causes.

You either have AGW or not - or some combination of many things.

What much of this argues is against the catasrophic AGW you hear from Gore and friends.

And, of course, after spending considerable time with this it becomes clear that climate is incredibly complex - and we do not know enough to isolate one or two causes. The negative feedback mechanisms are plenty.

Scientists admit they can not model cloud formation and pecipitation because it is the least understood part of climate. The science is hardly settled.

BTW - these wbsites are huge. It would take you months to digest all the information. A few hours spent makes me think that your mind is made up and nothing will sway you one way or the other.

You will have to learn the hard way.

camanintx and inthemajority
If the grand debate on whether AGW is true or not, when and where and between whom did it occur? One would think that an event of such import and magnitude would be announced, recorded, mediated and widely disseminated.

Articles appearing in "peer-reviewed journals" or reports by official-sounding but biased international organizations do not constitute a true and valid debate.

Correlation does not prove causation
One of the first things my research design professor told us in my first graduate school statistics class was that "Correlation does not prove causation." If one is using computer models to prove a theory and those computer models are flawed, then one should also consider that old computer science saying of GIGO (Garbage in - garbage out). Much of the research that people say supports global warming is based on computer models. Climate is a very complex entity and I seriously doubt that the computer models used are doing anything more than finding correlations that ultimately prove nothing. If even one of the parameters in the model is off even slightly, the models are meaningless. I think it is way too early to say the issue is settled when it comes to the AWG issue. We don't fully understand the dynamics of climate and how it works; how can we say we know what is causing changes in climate? I agree with other posters. This one is about money and power, not science.

DocInsight
"One would think that an event of such import and magnitude would be announced, recorded, mediated and widely disseminated."

More than one meeting. More than one report. Where have you been? TH, I assume.

Pat: "Correlation does not prove causation."
Wow. I never heard that. Did you tell the scientists.

"GIGO (Garbage in - garbage out)."
Hmmm. That's interesting. Never heard of it. Have you spoken to NASA about this?

"Much of the research that people say supports global warming is based on computer models."
And research. And recordings. And simulations. And predictions with results. And, yes, models. Did you report this as well?

"If even one of the parameters in the model is off even slightly, the models are meaningless."
Yes, but what we have found in the past few decades is that our predictions were slightly off -- the Earth is warming faster than predicted, ice caps are melting much faster than predicted, AK is losing permafrost a little faster than predicted. So yes, scientists are afraid to say what hey are really finding for fear of being named alarmists, and yet Cons without clues call them alarmists.

" how can we say we know what is causing changes in climate?"
It's called science. You should try it some time. Barring that, maybe read something.

Inthemajority
If you had ever taken a research design class in a graduate program you would have heard "Correlation does not prove causation" on many occasions. I started studying computers in the 70s and GIGO is a common phrase in the field. Sorry you haven't heard of either of those but all of the scientists I know (and I know quite a few) have been hearing that stuff for decades. As for my science credentials, I probably have quite a bit more expertise in the field than you do. I also know how to read scientific papers with the skepticism I was trained to have. A lot of the research findings that are widely touted in the press as supporting AGW are seriously lacking in scientific rigor. And yes, if the computer models are off in even one parameter, that can render any data derived from the models to be meaningless. If one searches long enough or works the numbers just right, one can "prove" almost anything. That does not make it scientific "fact". Correlation simply says two or more findings seem to be related; it does not prove that they are. Climate is a very complex system that we do not fully understand. If we do not understand it, we cannot say with certainty what is causing it to change. Perhaps you should spend some time with a few basic science texts that pertain to fundamental principles of research before you cast stones at someone who actually engages in scientific research as a graduate student in a doctoral program. A great many researchers in the field disagree with the popular assumptions about AGW yet they are consistently shouted down by the true believers. That is not science; that is religion. True science embraces all voices in the debate. It does not actively work to silence dissenting voices.

Computer models are not science
Inthemajority is just a troll who knows absolutely nothing about the subject. He just repeats what he reads on RealKlimate.

Computer models do not make predictions. Even the IPCC goes to great lengths to avoid claiming something stupid like that. Instead, it makes projections based on various scenarios of economic and environmental assumptions, in other words, "what ifs."

There are 22 different computer models in use each programmed with different parameters to project changes in global coupled atmospheric and oceanic circulation changes. When you hear scientists say....and then a range is given, they are reporting discrete results from the various models.

Weather forecasters know the models only have skill for a few days at best, and anything that goes out beyond this dissolves into chaos. They rely mainly on atmospheric projections because of the short range needs. Climate models combine that with ocean variables. None of them are really predictions because their initial states are not based on actual conditions.

PV
Exactly. If I drop my remote control at exactly the same time that my clock begins to chime, those two events would correlate with respect to time. The correlation would be established by a computer model if I programmed it to look for correlations between the two events with respect to time. Did my dropping the remote "cause" the clock to chime? Did the clock chiming "cause" the dropping of the remote? I think not in either case. As I stated, correlation does not prove causation. The computer models are only as good as the information they use. If you give them bad information, you get bad information out. If you program them with bad assumptions based on flawed theories, you get bad information out.

Pat & PV
It is correct that correlation does not prove causation, but it is also true that causation will show correlation. While solar intensity correlates with global temperature over most of the last 1,000 years, that correlation stops around 1960. Temperatures have continued to climb while solar intensity has remained relatively constant. Since the only known forcing agent that correlates to current trends is CO2, you would have a hard time proving it was any other cause.

Questions for Global Warming Alarmists
{Start Quote}
camanintx (TX)
Mar 29, 2009 - 10:01 AM EST

It is correct that correlation does not prove causation, but it is also true that causation will show correlation. While solar intensity correlates with global temperature over most of the last 1,000 years, that correlation stops around 1960. Temperatures have continued to climb while solar intensity has remained relatively constant. Since the only known forcing agent that correlates to current trends is CO2, you would have a hard time proving it was any other cause.
{End Quote}

How does CO2 force the global cooling trend we've seen since 2001? Wouldn't the temperature continue to climb?

How do you explain the correlation between solar activity (sunspots) and temperature? That correlation is far closer than CO2 vs. temperture.

How do you explain the 800 year delay between temperature rise and the following CO2 rise? Is that the effect of CO2 coming out of solution as the oceans warm?

If you leave a glass of cold water on a warm window sill, you find bubbles of CO2 and other gasses coming out of solution and collecting on the inside of the glass as the water warms. Doesn't the same thing happen on a much larger scale with the earth as the glass and the water as the oceans?

Just a few of the many questions for Global Warming Alarmists to answer before we give them any more power or money.

Turophile, Reply #117
How does CO2 force the global cooling trend we've seen since 2001? Wouldn't the temperature continue to climb?
---------------------------------------------
First, while temperatures have remained relatively constant since 2001, they have not been cooling. Since solar intensity has been decreasing since 2001, it has been canceling out much of the effects from CO2, explaining the pause in warming. However, solar intensity will peak again in about 2013 and CO2 is still rising, so you can probably expect another sharp increase in global temperatures.

=============================================
How do you explain the correlation between solar activity (sunspots) and temperature? That correlation is far closer than CO2 vs. temperture.
---------------------------------------------
The correlation between solar activity and temperature only holds until about 1950. Since there has been no correlation since then, you must start looking at other sources. CO2 is the only forcing agent which has been increasing since 1950.

=============================================
How do you explain the 800 year delay between temperature rise and the following CO2 rise? Is that the effect of CO2 coming out of solution as the oceans warm?
---------------------------------------------
If humans were not pumping out 30 billion tons of CO2 every year, you probably would still see this lag. But like any other feedback system, just because one source has historically been the leader doesn't prohibit the other from doing the same.

Camanatix
You may have some problems with your data and ideas. According to the 2007 IPCC TAR, CO2 and other GHGs is the main driver of global climate. Since 1990, CO2 cocentrations have climbed from 370ppm to 390ppm, with the majority of the increases since 2000. The IPCC went on to conclude that all major teleconnections and oscillations will be secondary to GHG increases, and oscillations like El Nino will be amplified (that is GHGs will cause more frequent and powerful El Nino events). Oscillations like the AMO, NAO, AO, and PDO were secondary, and the IPCC deemed them as unimportant.

Ironically, 2007 was the beginning of a rather strong La Nina episode, and in 2008 NOAA declared that the PDO went negative (ie cold). This was followed by the UK Met Offices rather infamous statement that AGW "will be on hiatus" at least until 2017. Later, several scientists including those at NOAA declared that AGW is still with us (despite falling global temps since 2007), but it is "hidden" -most probably in the deep oceans.

Of course, th deep oceans do not store heat energy. It is either radiated back into space, absorbed by greenhouse gases, or absorbed by the land or oceans. The oceans will either transport the heat poleward, interract with the boundry layer of the atmosphere (from which it will either be disapated through convection or through cloud formation and precipitation). ARGO data has proven these well known processes out.

As a matter of fact, the negative feedback of tropical cloud formations acts as a themostat against increased temperatures through increases in water vapor. Increased tropical cloudiness blocks incoming solar radiation, which in turn reduces the amount of heat available to the tropics. That is, the natural interactions of well known atmospheric teleconnections control our climate, and not GHGs.
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