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Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why No One Defends Bernard Madoff
by Cal Thomas
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The bilked have provided numerous sound bites denouncing Bernie Madoff as "evil," a word whose true meaning is sometimes difficult to grasp in our "nonjudgmental" age.

The definition of evil can be imprecise. Dictionary.com makes a run at it: "morally wrong or bad." According to whom and according to what? Is evil something we see only in others when we define it according to our subjective standards, or is it so embedded in each of us that we work overtime to hide it, not only from ourselves, but from everyone else?

Here is the dirty secret about the Madoff tragedy. Madoff is us. Yes, he is. Do not throw down your newspaper in disgust. We are all potential members of "Swindler's List." Do you know why our gut reaction is so strong and so hostile to Bernard Madoff ("I hope he rots in jail," said one of his "victims")? It is because he mirrors the flaw in each of us. We instinctively react to such people because they strip away our facade and reveal what theologians used to call "sin," before we became "dysfunctional" and in need of medication, not salvation. In extreme circumstances, we have crucified people who exposed our darkness to the light.

"It takes two to tango," my mother used to say when someone's affair was exposed. Madoff could not have prospered without willing participants. People who otherwise exhibited intelligence in their business and personal affairs were seduced by the old get-rich-quick scheme that has suckered humanity for millennia.

Everyone knows, don't they, that a guaranteed return on such investments is impossible? Everyone knows, don't they, that financial reports, with no audits or oversight, and coming from the one with whom you have invested, is a prescription for fraud? And yet the partners in this "tango" were all too happy to dance because their leading man held them tightly and played music they loved to hear. But Madoff's crimes cut doubly deep because he robbed his own.

"No one since Julius Rosenberg has so damaged the image and self-respect of American Jews," said Mort Zuckerman, who runs a charitable trust that lost $30 million to Madoff.

"It really is a shame we Jews don't believe in hell," writes Rob Eshman, The Jewish Journal. "What kind of world is it where Jews can't trust fellow Jews? ... There's a name for that kind of world -- hell."

"I'd like to believe someone raised in our community, imbued with Jewish values, would be better than this," said Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple in Los Angeles.

So would I, but greed is greed, immorality is immorality and evil is evil.

Recall those who turned over the names of neighbors and colleagues to Joseph McCarthy. What about the Catholic Church that shielded pedophile priests? Slaves often gave up runaway slaves. The Spanish Inquisition had those whose ignominy helped it along. Evangelical Christians turn on Evangelical Christians. Protestants turn on Protestants. Recall the traitors in the Nazi death camps who turned in their fellow prisoners in order to curry favor with the guards they hoped would spare their lives.

That evil has its enablers does not excuse the Nazis, Catholics, the Inquisitors nor Madoff, but it should give pause to all of us who denounce Madoff in ways that make us feel superior to him and incapable of performing evil acts of our own.

In his book, "The Body," Charles Colson, writes about the trial of Adolph Eichmann. Among the witnesses was Yehiel Dinur, who had escaped death in Auschwitz. On his day to testify, Dinur entered the courtroom and stared at the man in the bulletproof glass booth, the man who murdered Dinur's friends, personally executed a number of Jews, and presided over the slaughter of millions more. Dinur shouted and sobbed, collapsing on the floor.

Had hatred of Eichmann, or horrendous memories, caused his strong reaction? No. As he later explained in a riveting "60 Minutes" interview it was because Eichmann was not the demonic personification of evil Dinur had expected. Rather, he was an ordinary man, just like anyone else. Dinur realized that sin and evil are the human condition. "I was afraid about myself," Dinur said. "I saw that I am capable to do this ... exactly like he. Eichmann is in all of us."

Fyodor Dostoevsky wrote, "Nothing is easier than denouncing the evildoer; nothing more difficult than understanding him."

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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The parallels are the 800 lbs gorilla
How can any baby boomer condemn Bernie Madoff, and realistically expect their Social Security check to arrive on time, in 15 years? Are we going to exhume the bodies of our deceased congress critters and put them on public display and cry "Shame!"? We can't even hold Barnie Franks, or Chris Dodd accountable for the Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae meltdown. This insanity must reverse itself, for our country to survive.

Good article, Cal.

Cal:Excellent & Appropriate Observation
It is so much "easier" to take the speck out of my borother's eye, than to remove the "Plank" from my own eye. In our business schools of "higher" learning, we promote "the ends justify the means". Biblically, "the ends Never justify the means." Pragmatism has replaced both morals and ethics. "Love your neighbor...", sure, "after me, you come first."
I would be remiss if I didn't add, "you reap what you sow." "Be sure, your sins will find you out." If you "live by the sword, you will die by the sword." Recovery starts with individual repentance before a Holy, Righeous God. The only alternative is Rebellion. We would all do well to remember: Life is short. Eternity is long, and Hell is Hot! Mea Culpa.

Bernie explained it all
When this mess first broke in the news. Some reporter asked him how he was able to bilk that much money from people, he said, "Easy, I just used the Social Security System as my model."
Does anyone else think Bernie that was gagged and hustled out of the public eye so quickly to hide something?

a calm, cool and WISE perspective
Madoff gambled and lost. So did his investors.

The definition of evil
The definition of evil includes being concerned only about one's own wishes and desires while regarding the wishes and desires of others as unimportant. Madoff fits this perfectly. He enticed people to invest in his schemes and used their money to satisfy his own wishes and desires. What his investors wanted didn't matter to him at all.

As for Yehiel Dinur's comment, we are all involved in ensuring that our own wishes and desires are satisfied, but most of us want to do this in a way that is respectful of others. Yet, it is all too easy to slide into a mindset in which we regard other people as unimportant.

Look in the mirror and ask...
Am I the nice guy I think I am? Am I the good neighbor I think I am? It all goes back to Kennedy's quote, "Ask not...

Madoff
"The banality of evil" in "Eichman in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt

Gunny is correct
For all you Dems who support Socialist Security, how can you go after Madoff when that is EXACTLY what SS does now?

Maybe its time for politicians to learn some basic economics and dismantle the failed system.

Great article
It does take two to tango, and while I feel for the people who lost money to Madoff, I feel sorry for very few of them. They were not threatened or coerced into giving their money to this man, they did it willing for the same reason he was running the scheme...to make a quick buck! Their greed enabled his and their greed (in many instances) is what detroyed their wealth. Bernie Madoff will spend the remainder of his life in prison for his crimes, but he could not have committed the fraud he did without the consent of many of his "victims".

Madoff On Steroids
The Social Security Scam is Madoff on steroids.
Anything he did is multiplied by trillions in how we are being duped.

Many people still believe there is a sort of bank where THEIR money is held and paid out each month. They have no idea there is no money there. There hasn't been for decades.

This country will soon realize you cannot put capitalism out of business and still have money to keep up with ENTITLEMENTS. This Ponzi Scheme will soon make Madoff look like a piker.

We have had more people taking than giving.

Also a moral cowardice
I am afraid to feel sorry for Madoffs victims mainly because I think they were caught up in the get richer quicker scheme that Madoff offered and in the back of their minds there was some doubt. A lot of them would have been co-consipirators if his plan had kept going. Also it's easy to cast stones at someone who can't throw them back. Note there is no backlash against the Goverment for Social Security, but it hasn't collapsed yet. This is a form of cowardice that is well practiced by people in general and politicians and demogogues in particular. Especially those using populism as a tool. That's why we react so strongly when you see some one willingly take a risk to stand up for princioples.

Look in the mirror
Those who hate Madoff intensely do so because he represents what they hate in themselves. In fact, they are running a far worse Ponzi scheme because Social Security is enforced at the point of a gun while the victims of Madoff's scheme volunteered. I never volunteered for either scam.



Motivation
Crooks who run Ponzi schemes take the money and buy something they want. There is no money in the misnamed Social Security Trust Fund because the crooks running the Social Security Ponzi scheme took the money and bought votes and power.

Gunny #10 makes Point of the Month
What if a corporation used the employees' retirement accounts to pay for current expenses and nobody complained? Madoff saw govt doing exactly that and thought... "I'll screw these suckers too."




Ponzi scheme
Looks like most have it. SS is a Ponzi scheme concocted by the Government. Now they, after stealing the money for other things, warn us it is about to fail. It would be good to bring all those in government past & present who are guilty of this Ponzi scheme up on charges and given the same sentence as Bernie M. Don't you think?

Points of contention . . .
which is common for me with lib posters, but not so much with authors here on TH.

So, it was evil and/or immoral for neighbors to report potential Communist sympathizers to McCarthy (who has been slightly exonerated)? I can see fearful or paranoid as appropriate monikers, but not greed, immorality, or evil. Was it "evil" to try and curry favor with Nazi prison guards in an effort to ensure personal survival? I certainly agree that it's not courageous, but not being brave is hardly immoral or evil. Also, I'm pretty sure that while "protestants" may "turn on" each other, it's not for evil reasons, but usually disagreements over interpretation. I've never seen a Baptist and a Nazarene come to blows over eternal security.

I really don't see how that paragraph added anything to the rest of the article, which was pretty good. Maybe I'm just missing something.

Ghost
I was thinking the same thing, but I let it slide in defernce to the rest of the article. The fact is that Thomas used a bunch of examples that were poorly chosen.

Only one person?
I can't imagine that Madoff is the only person involved in this huge ponzi scheme that should be in prison. There have to be many more people involved that deserve to serve long prison sentences.

look up the facts before you lie

DavidM Location: GA
Reply # 8
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 8:36 AM EST

Rowly Location: GA
Reply # 10
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 9:52 AM EST

Mooner Location: GA
Reply # 11
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 9:53 AM EST

poorgrandchildren.com Location: AL
Reply # 12
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 9:57 AM EST

Jim Location: AR
Reply # 16
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 10:47 AM EST

==========

And all you other stupid people.

You tell me one thing that Social Security has done,or not done that you did not know about, or could have learned about.

What did you expect the government do with the excess money collected each and every year, money that was being accumulated for later pay-outs? Did you want them to store a million tons of $100 bills in Ft. Knox, earning no interest, or is it best that the Soc Sec bought Govt Bonds that will be cashed later, with interest, for distribution.

You are the reason that it will run out of money, as you would not permit the Govt to collect enough money to pay for the distribution needed a few years from now.

If it is possible for you and other nuts to opt-out of paying Soc Sec now, what will happen if you invest your money with Madoff, and have none left when you retire? What about the guy down the street who just wants an extra $20 in his check each week today. In either case, when you are retired and living on the street, other taxpayers would pay for welfare for both of you. You with your good intentions, and he with no intentions.

Why not look up the facts before you lie about the Soc Sec system.


Madoff #1

Let’s take a look at the Madoff mess. Do you wonder why it is not discussed in great detail?

Now here is a story that is most likely going to be misunderstood, and I will be called a bunch of names for telling it. I have never heard it just like this before, so I will be blamed or honored by the readers.

For some thousands of years, Jews have been criticized for their way of life as compared to the culture of the country where they reside. For a million reasons, that I will not attempt to describe, they have a culture, but no country border. There is no place in all these centuries where the country and everything there, have been run by the majority of Jews in the world. Many countries have more Jews than Israel.

A Letter to the Editor in the Los Angeles Times yesterday, see address below, complained that the US is the only country in the world that is pro-Israel. Did anyone attempt to find out what was wrong with 99% of the people in the world, that they don’t like the other 1%? Everyone is wrong except the Jews.

And did you notice that so many times someone insists they be identified as a Jew, then immediately complains that someone said something mean about them. Why do we need to know that anyone is a Jew, or a German, an Arab, or whatever they are?

Write a story in a fiction mode. Describe, in great detail, everything that Madoff has done these past decades. Make sure you do not use his name, but do describe his victims and what they did, but never use the word Jew, and make sure you do not date the story in the early 21th century.

Madoff #2


When you publish the story you will most likely be called an anti-semite and a lot worst names, because you wrote a story heard hundreds of times over the centuries, about Jews.

I believe that since this is true, that is why we have not heard such detail stories in the Wall Street Journal, and other business publications, about the perpetuator and the victims. Or are they really victims, and not willing partners. They were trying to gain great profit also.

Think about it, in the stories you have heard for all of your life, Jews have been accused of all kinds of illegal and greedy things about money. The word Jew in various forms is used to describe the actions of people, whether Jew or otherwise, where money is the main subject. And I don’t think Shakespeare started it.

And I would like to read a detail story as to how he did it, and why people went along with it, if not to tell his story, but also warn others about future Ponzi’s.

Now I am serious, tell me why we don’t hear details about Madoff’s scheme, and how you would report this mess, without being called anti-semitic. As far as we know, no one has really looked to find the money that was collected, and not even spent to purchase investments.

There are a million people (not all Jews) on Wall Street and in the Govt. that must have known, and I bet many of them did not want to be accused of saying a Jew did it.

Letter address
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/letters/la-le-monday16- 2009mar16,0,3587343.story?page=2

Jim in Cal @12:48 pm
You should look the facts up before you call the people who know the facts "liars". For many years, there actually was a trust fund--until Congress decided that, "Here is some money we can 'borrow' and spend." I do not remember the year, but I do remember that this did take place.

jim
You spent a lot of time and used a lot of space,but said so little. Chip on your shoulder?

It's interesting you only picked the south to criticize about what was said about SS. See? We all have our chips.

earn interest or dust


Younger Location: UT
Reply # 2
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 1:00 PM EST


And you don't thing it is better to have that money earning interest, rather than just sitting there earning dust.

Hey Jim, Jews are the problem, Gov't is.
the answer?? Wow. What a bunch of crybabies we've become. I refuse to believe that this country, founded by men who pledged their Lives, their Fortunes, and their sacred Honor. Are there any more people of integrity? Certainly not in this administration. How would the children and grandchildren fare in a "Great Depression"? You might actually have to forgo your cafe latte.

To Jim
Social Security is a Ponzi scheme on a grand scale. The government just takes your money and gives to someone else. There is nothing there to account for except future liabilities, which can only be funded by higher taxes of those that are working in the future and ..... also, advancing the age at which someone can receive benefits.


just to clear up any misconception
Jim, SS is a tax. Period. The gov is taking money from one group of citizens (those who work) and give it to another group of citizens (and some that aren't citizens) as a hand out. Period. If I could have kept my 15.3% pay, I could have invested it, bought gold, or put it in a coffee can and buried it in the back yard. But that is not what FICA is, and people that work, know this (whether or not they say they do). It is income distribution, wrapped up with pretty lies, and no obligations by the gov to pay.

Jim CA You are wrong bro!
Govt pays off the right pocket from money out of the left pocket. How do you think they pay the interest and principal for t-notes? Well it comes right out of the general revenue which is fed from the soc sec fund.

The devil's in the dollars and cents
In this postmodern, relativistic, don't-you-dare-judge-what-I-do culture, the only evil is anything that costs us money.

Outside of that, absolutely anything goes.

there is no interest on t-notes
Jim of CA makes the classic mistake when he thinks t-notes earn interest. The interest is not earned - it's taken from future taxpayers. It's a total scam.

California, prime example.
California is a prime example of a government with runaway government spending. It appears that California voters and those in the California government just don't give a damn.

Cleaning Man
Trillions of dirty bucks were floating around the world like satellites. Along came Mister Clean--he was Bernie Madoff and he knew how to clean a buck best. Washing dirty money was Madoff’s only talent. He was another Meyer Lansky. Dirty money went in and clean money came pouring out at the rate of 12% per annum in the form of dividends. Even if Madoff took a small cut from the principle the owners of the dirty money were pleased. It is estimated that over 100 billion dirty bucks were returned to investors smelling like angels. Unfortunately his cleaning service is now closed. The Ponzi scheme story was circulated by Madoff in an attempt to hide the real facts and keep the money clean. It was his talent until the end.

younger
I believe it was LBJ who took the SS Fund and put it into the General Fund. That was about the time he started the War On Poverty which has cost billions and has broken the bank.

Swampfox
As a California voter, I completely agree that our state has been devastated by big govt dems. With our resources we should be giving tax rebates. I assume you got my point on why ss is a scam.

From Wikapedia
Medicare was added [to social security] in 1965 by the Social Security Act of 1965, part of President Lyndon B. Johnson's "Great Society" program. Social Security was changed to withdraw funds from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue.


Please, easy does it.

Poor Jim from California actually believes that there is REAL money in the SS "trust" fund... and all for his wrinkly-crinkly days ahead.

Unreal... dude.

Which make one wonder - how many other poor souls out there.... also believe the very same thing. Simply a scam, by no other name.

We can all look forward to drastically higher taxes and sharply curtailed benefits... and life will be good. But hold on to those pocket books.

And Cal... you're so right.

In fact, notice the glaring lack of posts... even for an amazing event as outrageous such as this.

Your point made.

But then again, being right is not everything it's cracked up to be.

As they poisoned Socrates... and crucified Jesus.


Further Wiki:
"By dollars paid, the U.S. Social Security program is the largest government program in the world and the single greatest expenditure in the federal budget, with 20.9% for social security and 20.4% for Medicare/Medicaid, compared to 20.1% for military expenditure.

Social Security is currently the largest social insurance program in the U.S., constituting 37% of government expenditure and 7% of the gross domestic product.

Mike, Scott, Carlos,etal.
This was my post which poor Jim went off on.I am glad several of you backed me up in what I said.I didn't realize he was one of those who thought the money was in the bank for SS
________________________________________________
Post # 10
Madoff On Steroids
The Social Security Scam is Madoff on steroids.
Anything he did is multiplied by trillions in how we are being duped.

Many people still believe there is a sort of bank where THEIR money is held and paid out each month. They have no idea there is no money there. There hasn't been for decades.

This country will soon realize you cannot put capitalism out of business and still have money to keep up with ENTITLEMENTS. This Ponzi Scheme will soon make Madoff look like a piker.

We have had more people taking than giving.

give me an answer

What an absolutely stupid bunch of people, who say that US Govt. bonds will not be paid when due. Make sure China and all the others, such as your Grandfather who put your inheritance in US Bonds, know that they will not be paid.

Go on Google and you will find 150,000,000 stories about those bonds.

And I ask again, and never, never has anyone with your brain ever answered this question.

What should the Government do with the excess millions of dollars they collect each year from FDIC, in excess of what they pay out in benefits that very same year?

Come on don’t be stupid, give me an answer, a real business like answer.

As of the end of calendar year 2006, the accumulated Soc Sec surplus stood at just over $2 trillion in bonds.

They will be paid from taxes, just like all other bonds have, and will be paid.


Madoff Lessons
There are a number of lessons here for us. One poster said he hadn't seen much news about this scheme but the Wall Street Journal has been running a series of stories almost every day on every aspect of this gigantic ripoff.

Madoff was very clever. He cast the whole scheme as an exclusive deal open only to those who had at least a million to invest and preferably Jewish friends or acquaintances or acquaintances of acquaintances. As noted, greed at gaining incredible rates of return on investments caused many to throw their life savings at Madoff.

I'm sure many reassured themselves, and others, that Madoff has a good reputation and he is Jewish just like us.

This gigantic Ponzi scheme, if nothing else, demolishes the myth that Jewish people know how to handle money. Guess what, they are no better or worse than any Christian investor. That is a lesson for all of us to incorporate into our future planning.

The second lesson that all of us should have learned is never trust the government. The government as a regulator for Wall Street veeps is a complete, dirty joke!

To Carlos
I got your point. I just wonder when California will go bankrupt.

The big government protection racket.
Suppose someone came to you and told you that you were in serious danger. Suppose they also said they would protect you from danger if you paid them a certain amount of money. Suppose they also said if you didn't pay this money, terrible things would happen to you.

In the underworld, this sort of thing is called a "protection racket." When the government does it, it's called "Social Security."

I agree with Mike and ScottK. If you're under the age of 50, you'll probably never see a dime of the money you've put toward this con game.

Give me an answer

What an absolutely stupid bunch of people, who say that US Govt. bonds will not be paid when due. Make sure China and all the others, such as your Grandfather who put your inheritance in US Bonds, that they will not be paid.

Go on Google and you will find 150,000,000 stories about those Soc Sec bonds.

And I ask again, and never, never has anyone with your brain ever answered this question.

What should the Government do with the excess millions of dollars they collect each year from FDIC, in excess of what they pay out in benefits that very same year?

Come on don’t be stupid, give me an answer, a real business like answer.


Learn something


Ken Location: VA
Reply # 43
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 3:52 PM EST
If you're under the age of 50, you'll probably never see a dime of the money you've put toward this con game.

=====

Where do you stupid people get such ignorant ideas?

Learn something about it before you make such stupid statements.

jim in CA
Let me try to explain what others have been saying. Let us pretend you are the government. You operate the soc sec trust fund and all other functions of government. This year you are a little low on cash to spend so you borrow the money from the soc sec trust fund. The fund holds IOUs which we call U.S. Treasury securities. They earn interest, yes. The problem is the interest they are earning is paid by the same people earning it. If the surplus money was actually placed in a savings account that earned interest from a bank that would be one thing. It is not. It was spent. That means the government has to generate even more revenue in the future to both fund itself and pay back the trust fund. It all comes from the same place. You and me. The only way your fantasy is correct is if the money was not spent. It was. It is long gone.

Put another way. You borrow from your child's college fund to spend on a nice vacation but, put IOUs in there that earn interest. Who is paying the interest. What happens to your child's college fund if you cannot pay the notes you put in there?

carlos: Good points, but here's another
thought...

"Madoff saw govt doing exactly that and thought... 'I'll screw these suckers too.'"

Thomas said that we all have the capability to do, in on way or another, just what Madoff did.

But... we all have the ability to make the CHOICE to do good or evil.


So many posts about SS, yet we have Bozo spending so much of our money... and not money that we've chosen to give him to spend, but rather money he (and the libs) are TAKING from us, he makes Madoff look like a piker.


jim in Ca
writes, "What should the Government do with the excess millions of dollars they collect each year from FDIC, in excess of what they pay out in benefits that very same year?

Come on don’t be stupid, give me an answer, a real business like answer."

A business man with ethics assuming that fiduciary responsibility would invest it in whatever investments his client (the government) allowed him to make. It would also depend of how he was compensated. A flat fee and low demand for a return would insure low risk investments. Paying him a percentage of the return would insure high risk investments. If the money was needed next year, the investments would be cash out or withdrawn. The problem your example is that no third payer trust manager is employed. The government simply spends the money and when the trust account comes up short it is replenished with general revenue that was never intended to be used for that purpose. The same thing they do with social security.

question
"No one since Julius Rosenberg has so damaged the image and self-respect of American Jews"

Ever heard of George Soros?

jim in CA
Your main point is correct as far as it goes which is to say not very far. The bonds will be repaid. They are backed by the full faith and credit of you and me. The government can simply increase our alloted portions when funds run low. You think there is an endless supply of rich people to get that money from. We know better. You seem to think that when the liabilities come due there will be plenty of taxes to be had. The problem is the more you increase taxes the less the economy grows. There is a tipping point. When the government take reaches 100%, what is left? We find ourselves in a communist paradise with nothing to take and nothing to give and starvation for everyone. That is what pisses us off.

To Jim
The government will have to come up with some scheme to fund those promises that it has made to so many people or just make them go away. How about just printing some more money or just raise the retirement age for SS to 70? By the way the Federal Government has done the same thing to the Highway Fund. It is also part of the General Fund. There isn't really any money there either.

Cal Thomas
While it is hard to argue with the premise that we are all sinners, I still do take umbrage at this column.

My own particular sin is rarely one of greed or willfully doing in my friends.

Madoff has committed many sins over a long period of time. What was behind it all I cannot say, but I can hazard a guess. He
wanted to be part of the "In Crowd" and the
"Rich Crowd" and he wasn't. So he cooked up
a way to get there. He also had the ability
to thumb his nose at them. "See, you are not
as bright as you think you are." He brought
many of them down with him. I wonder if that
will give him a cozy feeling in his jail cell.


To Anne
Darm good point about Bozo spending so much money. I want my $8,000 ....... for buying my first house and I want it NOW!

JIM
what the government should do with all those bucks they take from you, not me, I was a civil servant with a much better deal, is invest it, make only actuarially sound promises, and let your heirs have the balance when you depart this vale of tears. That's what insurance companies do, and some corporate pension plans. Or they could do what the Civil Service System now does, which is let you select from investment in index funds, corporate bonds, or government bonds. You can also mix and match those choices.

All the SS funds you paid in 2008 are already gone.

Business reply to Jim from CA
Tell everyone under the age of 60, there's no SS coming their way, when they retire. Stop all 15.3% FICA tax taken from anyone under 60. Now, I can invest, save, bribe my kids, whatever, taking full responsibility for my own retirement. As far as all those in the program and over 60? Pay them from the general funds and cut welfare or something else to balance the books (there's a phrase that will bring a laugh, gov't balancing the books!!) Simple enough for you, Jimbo?

ps anyone over 60 will have to accept the welfare payments we've been paying all along,as social security payments.

You've got a hitch in your hike

Hitchhiker Location: OK
Reply # 46
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 4:35 PM EST
jim in CA
The problem is the interest they are earning is paid by the same people earning it. … … … Who is paying the interest.

======

Hey, remember, each and every penny the government spends is collected from the taxpayer.

The Govt. borrows money to do things for people (I know, it’s always for the other people), and each and every cent they borrowed, plus interest is repaid by tax money.

What on earth did you expect?

============


Hitchhiker Location: OK
Reply # 48
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 4:49 PM EST
jim in Ca

The government simply spends the money and when the trust account comes up short it is replenished with general revenue that was never intended to be used for that purpose. The same thing they do with social security.
=======

General revenues are all the Govt. has, and that is all they can use to pay anything.

Get with it.

=============


Hitchhiker Location: OK
Reply # 50
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 4:54 PM EST
jim in CA

If the surplus money was actually placed in a savings account that earned interest from a bank that would be one thing.

======

Which bank, CitiBank, Bank of America, or IndyMac, or any one of a thousand others that are going out of business?

Government spending and tax revenues are a synonym.

Anyone would tell you that Govt. bonds are better than money in a bank.
======

I was a secret spy

Terry Location: ME
Reply # 49
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 4:51 PM EST

"No one since Julius Rosenberg has so damaged the image and self-respect of American Jews"

========

In 1951, I was a secret spy for the FBI, looking for members of the
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
spy ring at Ft. Monmouth, NJ.
_______________________________
Each of my weekly reports said,
“Nothing to report.”
(Ft. Monmouth, NJ)

--------------
Why did we need to know Madoff or the Rosenbergs were Jews? Was that supposed to make a difference?

Why are Jews so anxious to be known as Jews?


General Fund, Govt. Debt, and taxes


Swampfox Location: SC
Reply # 51
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 5:06 PM EST
To Jim
By the way the Federal Government has done the same thing to the Highway Fund. It is also part of the General Fund. There isn't really any money there either.

============
There is nothing but the General Fund, Govt. Debt, and taxes from the citizens, nothing, nothing, nothing else.

==============

used to buy Govt. bonds

moventure Location: TX
Reply # 54
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 5:35 PM EST
JIM

All the SS funds you paid in 2008 are already gone.
=======

You are correct, it has either been paid to SS recipients, or used to buy Govt. bonds that will be repaid to Soc Sec in years to come.


If it wasn't drawing interest


Younger Location: UT
Reply # 23
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 1:00 PM EST

For many years, there actually was a trust fund--until Congress decided that, "Here is some money we can 'borrow' and spend."

========

What was the money doing in that trust fund, drawing interest or not? And if so, who was going to pay that interest.

If it wasn't drawing interest, how stupid.

invented for people who could not pay

Stunned Location: NV
Reply # 55
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 5:58 PM EST
Business reply to Jim from CA
You: Tell everyone under the age of 60, there's no SS coming their way, when they retire.

Me: Of course there will be
-------
You: Stop all 15.3% FICA tax taken from anyone under 60. Now, I can invest, save, bribe my kids, whatever, taking full responsibility for my own retirement.

Me: All you need to do is not apply for Soc Sec when you are old enough. Soc Sec was invented for people who could not pay for their living expenses.
---------

You: As far as all those in the program and over 60? Pay them from the general funds and cut welfare or something else to balance the books (there's a phrase that will bring a laugh, gov't balancing the books!!) Simple enough for you, Jimbo?

Me: Has govt ever done anything else?

-----------

You: ps anyone over 60 will have to accept the welfare payments we've been paying all along,as social security payments.

Me: Of course that was the original idea. Welfare for those who need it, a few dollars a month for those who don’t need the welfare.
---------

My brother, a retired college prof, says the $20K a year from SS, and a few dollars from other investments, is above his wage a few years ago.

Social Security is not a Ponzi scheme
Social Security has now been in place for over 70 years, no Ponzi scheme could (or inherently would) survive that long. Prior to Social Security, the U.S. govt had plenty of piecemeal old age pension programs (like for those who served, even briefly, in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War). Social Security was not really a new idea when it was started since the govt had many of these programs in place in the past (just limited in application). The only "problem" that Social Security has now is that fewer productive people are born than in the past (this began to taper off in the late 1960s) and people live longer. Even though people live longer, many people as they age cannot work (so living to 90 often means that the last 30 years of life people are not employable). Ironically, the Republican party's pushing 401ks (from older defined benefit programs) puts America in bad shape in about 10 years to deal with high numbers of poor elderly. Like it or not, these people will not vote based upon Kudlow economic theory -- they will vote for an extra $100 per month. In the future, Social Security taxes will likely be slightly raised, and benefits will be somewhat lower (like about 2/3 what they are now). The Sky would not fall if in 2030 Social Security taxes were 2% higher and the average payment was $800 per month instead of $1100. In math terms, that is how the problem is "solved." It has nothing to do with Madoff.

To the believers in SS
You need to just read the facts about Social Security to understand. Here is a link to a website that tells the story without passing judgment. The really telling fact is that in 1945 41.9 workers were paying benefits to one person..........in 2007 the ratio was 3.3 to 1.

http://www.justfacts.com/socialsecurity.asp

Hard to Believe--
I found it a bit incredible that Madoff could be the sole perpetrator but he probably is.. My immediate Family was victimized by one of our own (No, not Jewish) several years ago..Almost identical in some detail, in that Members of Family and a Large Church Congregation were Greedy!! I couldn't believe the 10% ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE and kept putting off investing.. That scheme fell apart in 3 or 4 years and Millions have NOT been found..My Son got Most of his back thru O&E Insurance (or some such)..AMAZING

People sometimes defend bank robbers
And they romanticize train robbers.

But they draw the line at Bernie.

What was Bernie's motto anyhow? "No sucker deserves an even break"?

Bernie was being just plain mean.

All of us have at least a bit of just plain mean.

To the supporters of SS
Tell me why this system is better than what they have in Chile or what they had in Galveston, Texas. Both of those plans are superior to what we endure today. Even what FDR started was not quite as bad as what it has become.

The Social Security Ponzi scheme has lasted longer than Madoff's because every worker is forced to join at the point of a gun. Just try to opt out of the system and see how long it takes for force to be applied.

Jim
I am sorry that you never overcame the handicap of being "educated" in one of our government monopoly education and indoctrination centers.

I milked 50 cows, morning and night

poorgrandchildren.com Location: AL
Reply # 67
Date: Mar 17, 2009 - 11:50 PM EST

=========

My education ended in the second year of HS as I milked 50 cows, morning and night.

What have I said that is not true, and why didn't you learn that in all the years you wasted in school, and breathing in the years since?
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