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Thursday, April 17, 2008
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
All Aboard the God-Talk Express
by Cal Thomas
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Beware when politicians talk about "compassion," especially when they hold a "Compassion Forum" to do it, which is what they did at the appropriately named Messiah College near Harrisburg, Pa. Politicians identify with the messianic because they think they are God's gift to America.

The forum attracted Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, but not Republican John McCain, who apparently saw it for what it was: an attempt by the Democrats to get back in the religion game.

You've got to hand it to Clinton and Obama. They did their Sunday school homework. They quoted Bible verses and told religious stories like it was testimony time at an old-fashioned revival meeting. "Yes indeed, brothers and sisters. We Democrats have seen the light. We once were blind secular humanists, but now we see into the electoral Promised Land! Vote for us and we will deliver you from the sin of ever having voted for a Republican!"

This is nothing new, of course. As recently as George W. Bush and as far back as the founding of the nation, politicians have invoked God in favor of their candidacy and policies. But God can't simultaneously approve of one political party or policy and its opposite. Abraham Lincoln gave us the best line on the idea of a schizophrenic deity when he said about Northern and Southern religious people in his Second Inaugural Address: "Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other."

Does God favor the Democrats' proposal for an Iraq pullout? How could he if President Bush hears the voice of God and takes a different path? What was that you said, Mr. Lincoln, about a house divided not being able to stand? Oh yes, you were quoting Scripture, too, but you also once made a larger point; something about it being less important that God is on our side than if we are on God's side.

Before government hijacked charity in the form of the New Deal and Great Society, compassion and charity began at home. People were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, care for widows and orphans and love their enemies. Those were biblical commands to individuals, not government. Democratic politicians see things differently. Apparently believing there aren't enough caring people, they want compassion to originate in Washington, depriving it of its true meaning. They define compassion as big and ever-growing government and a guaranteed check forever with no expectation - or requirement - the recipient will ever better his or her circumstances.

Traditionally, Republican compassion has encouraged private charity with government picking up the leftovers of what religious and other charitable institutions were unable to do. President Bush, through his "faith-based initiative," took this one step further by subsidizing religious groups with federal money. This removes the responsibility and privilege from individuals and turns it over to government. When that happens, religious organizations become one more constituency in the never-ending campaign for political support. Once, evangelicals "prayed it in" when they needed money. Now too many of them ask government to "send it in."

Can Senators Obama and Clinton get away with fooling Democrats as Republican politicians have sometimes fooled their supporters with God-talk? Of course they can.

At a press conference in a working-class neighborhood in Scranton, Pa., over the weekend, one questioner asked Sen. Clinton about the last time she went to church. She properly ridiculed the statement, finally admitting it was on Easter Sunday. What does that have to do with being a successful president?

People who want to hear Bible verses quoted by politicians ought to remember something. Satan knows Scripture, too. Look it up. When politicians appeal for votes by styling themselves as special favorites of God, they are tempting voters and setting them up for a huge disappointment.

Whether or how many times Obama and Clinton (or McCain) attend church services is no barometer for forecasting their potential presidency.

When politicians speak of compassion, put your hand on your wallet because they intend to spend your money, not theirs.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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God
If He or She doesn't intervene, how do you explain things like the battle of Midway, the fact that FDR died a few months before the most horrible weapon in the creation of man was used by a DEMOCRAT president against civilians (sparing this demi-god from opprobrium). How do you explain the very fact that the Union won the war between the states? Or that President Lincoln seemed to be prescient about his assination. He said "good bye" to his sole bodyguard, whom he would not allow to accompany him to Ford Theater that fateful night rather than his customary "good night." There are so many more examples in American history, including the simple fact that we prevailed against the British, (I'm sure other TH'ers will assist here) that to deny divine intervention is almost irrational.

Cal
The man who said this, points his fingers at Obama and Hillary and proclaims they are fake Christians.

"These people are evil to the core.

Are we not paying attention to the beheading videos? The barbarians are at the gate. In fact, they have broken down the gate.

This war won't be won (at least by our side) if we impose on ourselves restrictions that the terrorists do not impose on themselves."

Cal wants us to be more like our enemy, the people who are evil to the core.

Finally
The democrats are finally realizing how gullible some voters are that they'll be persuaded to vote for someone who claims to share their religious beliefs. With both sides bombarding us with the Jesus Card now, maybe that type of rhetoric won't be as effecive. Let's hope.

Folks ain't shy speakin on behalf of God
We have known this for a long time.

Nothing new here.

Politicians always invoke religion, invoke God.

Was Cal as incensed when G.W. Bush invoked his religion, and God, for political purposes, as he now seems to be with Hillary and Obama?

I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong.

There is no doubt Obama and Hillary are "mining" the religious vote. It is reasonable to doubt their sincerity.

But if G.W. Bush and the republicans can do it, why can't they?

I doubt God is a registered republican, or a registered democrat. I suspect He is an independent.

I do applaud Cal, in an otherwise lackluster piece, for seeing thru the sham of Bush's "faith based initiative", which according to Cal, "subsidizes religious groups and removes the responsibility(of charity)from individuals, and turns it over to government".

So much for Bush's adherence to principles of small government.

And the Democrats would be even worse.

Good forf Cal !!
"People were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, care for widows and orphans and love their enemies. Those were biblical commands to individuals, not government."

Glad to see the difference between 'individual' charity which brings blessing and gratefulness versus 'governmental' programs which breeds tyranny and breeds resentment.

People who actually read and try to live by scriptures know that there is NOTHING in New Testament about governmental programs- all NT scripture is given to individual believers.

In the Old Testament there are some parts devoted to governmental issues- however these were given to a nation that was a theocracy ideally God Himself in charge. (Problems ensue when rulers ignored His sovereignty)

Can Obama and Hillary fool the Democrats
Not what one would call a difficult task. They elected Jimma Carter and Bubba, didn't they?

Everything in it's place
Here, here! Keep politics out of religion and religion out of politics.

BTW - read up on the war against Japan in 1940s - try "The Ultimate Battle", Bill Sloan - to get a better understanding of Harry Truman's most courageous and compassionate act of war. Do not invoke historical precedents that you don't understand and are unwilling to invest the time in understanding. We can learn from the past, but only it we understand it.

Cal
"..Before government hijacked charity in the form of the New Deal and Great Society, compassion and charity began at home. People were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, care for widows and orphans and love their enemies."

LMAO the government came in because the churches or "religious folk" if you will couldn't or wouldn't. The Great Society was needed especially in the South because of the hostility to the end of state segration and in any case most of the great society funding dried up to waste in Vietnam

" Those were biblical commands to individuals, not government. Democratic politicians see things differently. Apparently believing there aren't enough caring people, "

There were not at least enough "caring church people" or maybe it was the completely disorganised and ineffective and prejudice manner so many went about their task?

"they want compassion to originate in Washington, depriving it of its true meaning. They define compassion as big and ever-growing government and a guaranteed check forever with no expectation - or requirement - the recipient will ever better his or her circumstances. "

NOT TRUE but unlike your fundamentalist conservatism most of Americans are NOT deadbeats and do believe in investing in and caring for people when the conditions are right


Hal Donahue
Yes, it is true. Libs seek to maintain, through the generations, a whole class of slackers dependent upon the benevolent Democrats to supply their every need. They constantly fertilize the crop, and are always seeking to enlarge the same. They try to outdo each other with new give-away programs, not with their own money, of course. How can they continue to be champion of the oppressed without a steady supply of slackers?

sawdust
"Yes, it is true. Libs seek to maintain, through the generations, a whole class of slackers dependent upon the benevolent Democrats to supply their every need."

LMAO LOL thank you I needed that laugh this morning LOL. Most slackers are rural and we all know that is red state territory

"They constantly fertilize the crop, and are always seeking to enlarge the same. They try to outdo each other with new give-away programs, not with their own money, of course. How can they continue to be champion of the oppressed without a steady supply of slackers? "

That seems to me to describe you fundamentalist conservatives

Hal Donahue
"The Great Society was needed especially in the South because of the hostility to the end of state segration..."

Mr. Donahue, clearly you never lived in the South. I did. And let me assure you that even before the War of Northern Aggression, there was plenty of individual charity going on in the South. Typical White Women daily risked their very lives to teach slaves to read and write (by using the Bible, no less) when it was a hanging offence -- notice how that precious gift is trampled in the dirt by today's Black Generation Whine, by the way? That'll encourage a person to risk her life for you, all right! -- and even the poor sharecropper Typical Whites such as my ancestors shared what they had with those in need, especially during the Great Depression. In fact, they still do to this day, even when rewarded by some ungrateful brat who says "Mah Momma say I don' gotta listen to no old White Woman!" as my Auntie heard every day of her teaching career from Typical You Know Who.

Yes, some churches could do more. But just because we obey Jesus' commands given in Matthew Chapter 6 and do not blow trumpets before we give, don't assume that we are all slackers like you, who probably don't even march and chant for Goodies.

And about that "funding drying up for the Great Society" thing? Those programs now have spent over $1 trillion (with a T) and what do we have, but more of the same.

Hillary & Obama Christians?
I'm going to say the same thing here as I did on Susan Fields' article:

How can someone who claims to be a follower of Christ support the homosexual agenda? Both these candidates support government endorsement of homosexual marriage and special rights for homosexuals.

How can someone who claims to be a follower of Christ support abortion in any way? Both these candidates are 100% behind the government endorsement of the "right" to abortion.

How can anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ steal from those who are hard-working and give it to those who do not work? Both these candidates work to redistribute the wealth.

Another problem with their claims of being Christian: both support "affirmative action" which favors some people over others.

Lots more could be said. Both are members of extremely liberal churches who have left the true teachings of Christ behind decades ago.

AudiR10
"Mr. Donahue, clearly you never lived in the South. I did. "

Yes I did several times starting in the 60s and ending in the 90s

"And let me assure you that even before the War of Northern Aggression, there was plenty of individual charity going on in the South. "

NOPE it was a civil war and the debauched slave owning South was rightly and justly crushed

" -- notice how that precious gift is trampled in the dirt by today's Black Generation Whine, by the way?"

Explain please

"That'll encourage a person to risk her life for you, all right! -- and even the poor sharecropper Typical Whites such as my ancestors shared what they had with those in need, especially during the Great Depression. "

it evidently was not enough

"In fact, they still do to this day, even when rewarded by some ungrateful brat who says "Mah Momma say I don' gotta listen to no old White Woman!" as my Auntie heard every day of her teaching career from Typical You Know Who."

Oh do explain LOL What did segragation do to education funding in the South in constant dollars?

"Yes, some churches could do more. But just because we obey Jesus' commands given in Matthew Chapter 6 and do not blow trumpets before we give, don't assume that we are all slackers like you, who probably don't even march and chant for Goodies."

Nice southern christian insult?

"And about that "funding drying up for the Great Society" thing? Those programs now have spent over $1 trillion (with a T) and what do we have, but more of the same. "

detail please and then compare to Nixon's ongoing war on drugs and the costs of prisons continuing to this day

God is watching
I enjoyed Cal's last line best. "hold on to your wallet." Liberals always take from you and I, give a bunch to thier buddies and themselves and then the remainder goes to the poor folk "clinging to guns, God and racial resentment." I cannot and won't tell you about the people our small church has helped in our congregation and outside of our community. Why? Because we would rather recieve praise from God rather than the chattering class which like death and fire "will never say 'Enouph."

All Aboard the God-Talk Express
Any serious student of the Bible would never be fooled by Clinton or Obama. Neither of them have much scriptural knowledge nor do they have a relationships with Jesus Christ.

In that vein then, we need to take religion out of political campaigns. After all, the most important qualification one can have as President is to make good decisions based on sound judgments. While God can and often does pass those skills down to anyone that asks for them, a President still would be on shaky ground to say that his beliefs made him a good one.

On sensible judgement; There has been found a link between abortion and breath cancer. Therefore, wouldn't it be wise for a President to instruct his Surgeon General to do whatever he could to prevent abortion?

Glenn Chatfield
"How can someone who claims to be a follower of Christ support the homosexual agenda? Both these candidates support government endorsement of homosexual marriage and special rights for homosexuals."

What did Jesus have to say about sex in general and homosexuals in particular? Why do you want government in our bedrooms?

"How can someone who claims to be a follower of Christ support abortion in any way? Both these candidates are 100% behind the government endorsement of the "right" to abortion."

What did Jesus say about abortion which was common then?

"How can anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ steal from those who are hard-working and give it to those who do not work? Both these candidates work to redistribute the wealth."

Love one an other counts as does render unto Ceasar a counter question here is how can you folks refuse to repay all the government investments society put in you. What did Jesus say about greed?

"Another problem with their claims of being Christian: both support "affirmative action" which favors some people over others."

fairness?

"Lots more could be said. Both are members of extremely liberal churches who have left the true teachings of Christ behind decades ago. "

As far as the true teachings go a bumber sticker I saw summed it up well: the religious right is neither

Hal Donahue
Jesus said marriage was one man and one woman - he refered to "the beginning" with Adam and Eve. Throughout the scripture homosexual behavior is condemned. God finds it abhorent. I don't want government in our bedrooms, but that is exactly where they are when the force the rest of us to sanction deviant behavior.

Jesus condemned murder, and abortion is murder.

"If a man will not work, neither shall he eat." That is Scripture.

"Affirmative Action" is not fair. It rewards race, not merit.

Perhaps you need to study your Scripture.

Glenn Chatfield
"Jesus said marriage was one man and one woman - he refered to "the beginning" with Adam and Eve. "

Did he? What is the exact quote and would that exclude gays? I honestly have no clue. My personal opinion is the state should not "do" any marriages that as Bush the torturer said is a sacrament. The state should only "do" civil unions.

"Throughout the scripture homosexual behavior is condemned. God finds it abhorent."

I asked what Jesus had to say about it after all it was everywhere in his day. If he didn't mention it why is it more important than love one another that he did talk about. Jesus seemed mostly unconcerned about sexual matters yet it seems to be an obcession with fundamentalists

"I don't want government in our bedrooms, but that is exactly where they are when the force the rest of us to sanction deviant behavior."

Oh no that means they cannot go there at all

"Jesus condemned murder, and abortion is murder."

I thought he condemned capital punishment not murder? Where in the bible does it say abortion is murder a child was not counted as human in many cases until well after birth

"If a man will not work, neither shall he eat." That is Scripture."

you conviently for got exortions to charity

"Affirmative Action" is not fair. It rewards race, not merit."

oh does it? you mean most blacks at the same opportunities and abilities to go to the very schools that you did and get the very same jobs etc?

"Perhaps you need to study your Scripture. "

No time for that but I do want to understand what you folks are thinking

HalD
Marriage is defined by Christ as being between one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6)...He didn't create Adam and Steve...

God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived...

God formed king David in the womb (Psalm 139)...

God speaks against favoring one over another, and shows favoritism to no one...

"oh does it? you mean most blacks at the same opportunities and abilities to go to the very schools that you did and get the very same jobs etc?"

Lessee...Colin Powell, Condi Rice, BARACK OBAMA, Clarence Thomas, the billionaire who founded Black Entertainment Network...How many more do you need? There's nothing you can't accomplish if you're willing to work for it, mister...

A.J.
"Marriage is defined by Christ as being between one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6)...He didn't create Adam and Steve..."

If it was such a big issue with him why did Jesus not say a single thing about it?

"God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived...

...God speaks against favoring one over another, and shows favoritism to no one..."

My experience is the Christian bible is like military regulations if you look long and close enough you can find justifiction to do near anything

"...Lessee...Colin Powell, Condi Rice, BARACK OBAMA, Clarence Thomas, the billionaire who founded Black Entertainment Network...How many more do you need? There's nothing you can't accomplish if you're willing to work for it, mister... "

Nice thought but very wrong. The amount of talent we waste is HUGE. The exceptional will almost always rise to the top but the above average and average often cannot climb out of the hole they started in. It is about waste as much or more than fairness. Do you honestly believe that if GW Bush had not been a member of the lucky sperm club i.e. born a Bush that he would have become president?

HalD
...Guess we'll find out if Obama is elected...

And what about Bubba Clinton? He most certainly WAS NOT a member of that club you mention...

Hal
"If it was such a big issue with him why did Jesus not say a single thing about it? "

He did, I gave you the reference (Matt 19:4-6) that quotes Christ defining marriage, and reaffirming that man is completed by a woman - not another man.

"My experience is the Christian bible is like military regulations if you look long and close enough you can find justifiction to do near anything"

That's because you, being by biblical definition unregenrate/unbelieving, are not expected to understand what's in the Bible, it's just foolishness to you.

"The exceptional will almost always rise to the top but the above average and average often cannot climb out of the hole they started in."

I know plenty of black folks who do quite well, I can't accept your assertion...

God is a conservative Republican
Every TH reader (and most of the TH columnists) know that God is a conservative Republican. He can't possibly be a liberal Democrat. Conservatives, after all, know precisely what God requires of human beings, and they certainly know who is on God's enemies list--liberals, gays, Muslims--just for starters. Conservatives also know that God requires them to govern so as to implement his truths. Conservative positions on policy issues are clearly God's positions as well, as TH readers constantly tell us.

The Bible is the basic political text of conservatism, and from it we can see that conservaties are clearly God's chosen people. All liberals have had their names stricken from the Book of Life, as conservatives know well.

I used to think of God as transcendent, but then I realized that he is a big contributor to CPAC.

Not one single word? Wrong.
Quoth HalD:

"If [marriage] was such a big issue with him why did Jesus not say a single thing about it?"

Not a single thing?

Matthew 19:3-6

3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"

4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

5and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?

6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mark 10 contains a similar passage.

Jesus was also familiar with marital law; see Matthew 22:23-33 and parallel passages.

Jesus was good Jew. Marriage was a very, very big deal among the Jews. To say it wasn't important to him is to display ignorance.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

Gestell and God
You're silly...

Reminds me of WC Fields
HalD (who seems consistently to be crossing my sights today) saith unto us:

"My experience is the Christian bible is like military regulations if you look long and close enough you can find justifiction to do near anything..."

I think some military judges would probably spank you pretty badly if you tried to make the UCMJ say certain things it doesn't say.

As to the Bible, you remind me of WC Fields on the day when somebody spotted him, uncharacteristically, reading a Bible. The friend asked, "What are you doing?" and Fields replied "Looking for loopholes."

If you go to the Bible looking for excuses, you'll find them -- but nobody familiar with the Bible will take you seriously. If you go there looking for instruction from God, you'll find that, too. It depends on what's in you.

So, if you're finding excuses for nearly anything in the Bible, I suspect that tells us how you've been looking.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Thanks.)

A.J.
"There's nothing you can't accomplish if you're willing to work for it, mister..."

Well, then those wealthy suburban schools are wasting millions of dollars on prime computers, textbooks, and music and athletic equipment. Why can't those kids just "work for it" like we expect the inner city kids to do?

Unfortunately Cal, our world is more complicated today and requires an institutionalized approach to equal opportunity. What's the private charity approach to ensuring that all have access to quality education? That can only be achieved through government. Just as it is in all the countries whose students score better than ours. What's the private charity approach to ensuring that all have access to health care? That can only be achieved through government, just as is in all of the other industrialized nations. But for some reason, on both issues, we think we know better despite all evidence to the contrary.

A.J.
"...Guess we'll find out if Obama is elected...

And what about Bubba Clinton? He most certainly WAS NOT a member of that club you mention... "

If you don't believe both men aren't exceptional then you have never met them. As much as you folks try to blame everything Bush on Clinton it simply isn't true. The Bush Regime is much more like the Carter Administration -- incompetent in virtually every way

Cam assertions
How much government money is being poured into the public school system?

The question isn't how much money is being poured into the system, it's the quality of education being offered.

No doubt the climate in an urban school is going to be different, but I stand by my assertion that those willing to get an education (and ultimately, ahead in this world) can make something of themselves.

AJ/inkling_revival
"Not a single thing? ...Mark 10 contains a similar passage."

OK thanks but that confirms the religious aspect but it isn't anti gay is it?


AJ
How much money is being put into our prison systems as a result of us not putting more into our public school systems? Why do students in other countries score better than ours while we incarcerate more than those countries?

Yes, achievers can make something of themselves. But if we invest only enough in education to make it possible for achievers to succeed, we pay the price later in crime and reduced productivity.

HalD: What Jesus said about abortion
HalD,
Jesus would have upheld Jewish law given to Moses by God which would have required either monetary compensation for accidentally inducing a premature birth or "life for life" if the baby died.
Exo 21:22-23 NASB "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. (23) "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
Other parts of the Bible refer to God knowing the person before birth, I believe someone quoted Jeremiah 1:4-5 earlier as one example. Jesus is definitely pro-life!

inkling_revival
"...I think some military judges would probably spank you pretty badly if you tried to make the UCMJ say certain things it doesn't say."

I said regulations LOL

"...If you go to the Bible looking for excuses, you'll find them -- but nobody familiar with the Bible will take you seriously. If you go there looking for instruction from God, you'll find that, too. It depends on what's in you."

If that were the case why don't we still kill folks who eat shell fish or disobey there parents

"So, if you're finding excuses for nearly anything in the Bible, I suspect that tells us how you've been looking."

I? I actually am looking for nothing just an observation over the years as each different "issue" comes up

ME
"...Other parts of the Bible refer to God knowing the person before birth, I believe someone quoted Jeremiah 1:4-5 earlier as one example. Jesus is definitely pro-life! "

Abortion and homosexuality was very common yet Jesus chose not to address abortion or homosexuality that is my point. Yet all your "push" is toward those and not the poor, weak, etc that Jesus did speak about.... I find this confusing at best

Hal,

what is your source for saying abortion and homosexuality were very common in the Holy Land of Jesus' time and among the people to whom He spoke?

Jesus said, "male and female He made them, for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become one". He also said "...fornicators...will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven". He did not say sexual license is God's Way. Finally, He said, "suffer the little ones to come to Me". The pre-born humans being aborted are the most little of the "little ones".

How someone responds to God is

indicative of the soundness of his/her judgment.

eddie
"...what is your source for saying abortion and homosexuality were very common in the Holy Land of Jesus' time and among the people to whom He spoke?"

Archeology and writings of the period.

"...The pre-born humans being aborted are the most little of the "little ones". "

they are potential "little ones" not little ones

Was Jesus all tied up with sexual matters? Nope. was he concerned for the poor and donetrodden? you bet. You rightist types seem to have twisted Jesus' priorities but I grant you that you found great emotional issues that don't cost anything to distract the people and win election

Hal
...Now I get it...

Because Jesus Himself didn't condemn homosexuality or abortion, it's OK then, right?

You're correct that homosexuality has been around for quite some time. Attempted homosexual acts preceded Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction.

Scripture condemns homosexual acts in both the Old and New Testaments, showing that God doesn't change.

BTW, Jesus was real clear, too, that even hating someone was considered to be murder, and that lusting after someone OTHER THAN YOUR WIFE was wrong.

Go ahead, mince words.

Hal D and What Jesus Said
You're correct in stating that Jesus wasn't hung up on the whole sex thing; however, he didn't shy away from pointing out that the woman at the well had been married seven times, and that her current "hook-up" wasn't her husband.

In the case of the woman caught in adultery, He didn't condemn the woman; he told her to go her way AND SIN NO MORE.

Hal
Just because something took place (e.g., homosexual behavior and abortion), that doesn't make it right or moral.

As for homosexual behavior, God condemned it as an abomination in Lev. 18:20 and 20:13. Jesus, as pointed out by others, said marriage was between a man and a woman, reiterating Gen.2. Gen. 19 tells of the wickedness of Sodom's homosexual conduct (from where we get the word "sodomite")(cf. Jude 7). Read what Paul says about homosexual behavior in Rom. 1:26-17, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and 1 Tim. 1:10. Jesus didn't have to mention it because God already spoke to the practice in Leviticus (and before you go off on a tangent about other Levitical laws, those ceremonial laws were meant only for the nation of Israel to purify them as an instrument of God, and Jesus abrogated the ceremonial law anyway).

I have no problem if people want to practice homosexual behavior, but when they demand government sanction of it through "marriage" (or civil unions) and force the teaching of it as an alternative lifestyle in publics schools, then the problem now exists. We aren't obsessed with homosexual behavior, it's the gays who are obsessed with demanding our sanction and labeling it as hate when we protest.

By the way, Jesus didn't mention bestiality or rape either.

Oops
the woman at the well had five, not seven husbands...

...my bad...

priorities
When Jesus describes the judgment criteria he lists not feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Homosexuality doesn't come up. I'm OK with people interpreting scripture as critical of homosexuality. Just enforce it the same way you do wearing cotton/polyester blends and women failing to bring two doves to the temple with each menstral cycle.

As for restricting marriage, why no efforts to put it off limits to divorced people (which Jesus specifically condemned)? Does it have something to do with the fact that only 5% of the population is gay while about half of all marriages end in divorce?

Jesus was constantly healing people. Aren't we supposed to follow his example? Don't conservatives passionately hate the concept of universal health care?

I'm also OK with people protecting embryos. But why worry more about embryos than the sick and injured who can't afford health care?

Hal and abortion
Jesus never condemned capital punishment. God ordained it.

A child is a human being no matter what stage of life, whether it is at conception or just prior to birth. Birth doesn't suddenly change the baby into human.

In the Bible a pre-born child was still called a child. Read Exod. 21:22-23; Job 3:3b & 16; Ps. 139:13-16; Eccl. 11:5; Is. 49:1; Jer. 1:5; Matt. 1:18; Lk. 1:41-44. Notice some of the terms used for the pre-born: infant, child. Notice the idea that they are speaking of living human beings.

To kill an innocent human child for no reason other than convenience of the mother is indeed murder.

Glen
Paul says that homosexuality is "unnatural". A casual familiarity with nature confirms that, just as a casual observation of the sun leads one to believe it rotates around the earth (an equally large religious battle). A more detailed look at nature shows that over 450 species engage in homosexual acts. Paul also says that women should remain silent in church because it's a disgrace for them to speak. Do they remain silent in your church?

Hal and affirmative action
Affirmative action means women and minorities get preference over everything regardless of the merit of the other person. It is discrimination against anyone not covered by affirmative action.

You don't know my background, but I can say, "YES," everyone regardless of race had the same opportunities I had. As a matter of fact, I grew up in Federal Housing projects where my brother and I were the only "Anglos" in Mexican neighborhoods. My family had no money, my parents were divorced, but I refused to join up with the gangs or get involved in drugs. I stayed in school and graduated. I joined the Army and spent five years serving and self-educating, and joined a flying club so as to prepare for a career. After the Army I got a job as a laborer until I found a job with the Postal Service. 3 1/2 years after that I got a job with the FAA and have been a controller for 30 years.

Now, pray tell me, just what advantages did I have over the women and minorities?!?!?!? I served my country during time of war, I concentrated on education even without college (libraries are wonderful repositories of knowledge), and worked my way to where I am today by avoiding gangs and drugs! Affirmative action has cheated me in the past because my merit was trumped by another's minority status!

Affirmative action is racist in that it tells the minorities that they are unable to get anywhere on merit!

Cam
Cam says, "Paul says that homosexuality is 'unnatural'. ... A more detailed look at nature shows that over 450 species engage in homosexual acts."

Humans are not animals. But, if you are an evolutionist, I can see where you would believe we are. Paul was talking about the nature of human beings who are made in God's image. By nature homosexual behavior is deviant. Even in animals it is deviant, but animals act only on urges, which as humans we control.

"Paul also says that women should remain silent in church because it's a disgrace for them to speak. Do they remain silent in your church?"

Read in context, 1 Cor. 14 Paul says, all [prophets?] can speak in turn so everyone is “encouraged and instructed." He points out that they do have control over their need to speak. Women are not allowed to speak in these discussions, but be in submission. Women are to ask their husbands at home if they have questions about what is said. This is a subject too deep to discuss in such a small forum, but the point is that there is a heirarchy established in the church, and roles established for women. Liberal churches claim this is cultural, but history shows once this command is violated the church with women leaders tend to drop other Biblical commands and fall into apostasy. Fundamentalists churches still adhere to this injunction, including Paul's command to not let women be in authority over men in the Church. I suggest you read a good book on the subject, Alexander Strauch's "Men and Women: Equal Yet Different."

Cam
In scripture, God calls homosexual acts an abomination. Why do you have to point to animal acts to try and justify something that God condemns? If God says it's wrong, it's wrong as far as I'm concerned.

God commanded His creation to be fruitful and multiply. Can't get there with the kind of acts that take place between homosexuals.

Glen
I congratulate you on your life's triumphs. But where would you have lived if some liberal hadn't confiscated the wealth of some hard working person to pay for the federal housing project?

It's been pretty well documented that when white males (of which I'm one) apply for jobs or loans, statistically they fare better than their minority counterparts with equal qualifications.

Cam
So you're all about the Robin Hood thing, eh?

...God condemns theft, too...

I may have to "render unto Caesar," but theft is theft, and our government in many cases is stealing money from it's taxpayers.

AJ
Leviticus also describes eating shellfish and several other types of aniimals as an abomination. I brought up other animals' behavior to note that Paul was flawed in his basis. Virtually all Christians don't ask women to remain silent in church, why should we ask homosexuals to remain celebate?

"God commanded His creation to be fruitful and multiply."

Gay people have not hindered the populating of our planet. Scientists speculate that homosexual behavior might exist in communal species because there is an advantage for a species to have members that are productive but not reproductive. Indeed childless gay people pay taxes to our schools.

"If God says it's wrong, it's wrong as far as I'm concerned."

Do you believe that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Would that imply that we should have a maximum wage?

this again
You guys are something else. You point to Leviticus but then say most of the laws no longer apply. You point to how Paul calls homosexuality "unnatural". Then as soon as you're informed that it actually is natural you say we shouldn't look to nature for guidance.

AJ - Why would you possibly remain in a place where you're stolen from? My Boy Scout Handbook told me that it was my responsibility as a US citizen to pay taxes. Paying taxes has never bothered me. I'm thankful to be here. I could probably never repay the State of California for having educated me from grade school to grad school.

Cam 4:52 Post
Your bringing up the Law just complicates matters a little more (actually a lot more). It sounds like you know, but may not understand what is in the Bible.

The Law (Torah - first five books of the OT) was given to point people to Christ for their salvation because no one can keep it. Jesus Christ is the exception as He lived a sinless life and fulfilled the Law, His death on the cross being the perfect sacrifice for sin.

I was making a point WRT to God's command to His creation. You can try to argue until you're blue in the face that homosexual behavior is somehow normal or natural, but it is not.

As far as your last paragraph goes, the love of money is the root of all evil. I'm convinced that politicians love that money because it enables them to build their power base by perpetuating dependency.

Cam 4:58 Post
YOU'RE calling homosexuality natural. God has made it clear that it's sinful.

I pay my taxes because God tells me to. I'd pay them even if I wasn't a believer because I don't want to go to jail for tax evasion. Doesn't mean I like it, doesn't mean I go along with the way our government spends it (especially when it comes to things I believe are wrong). Remember, in Jesus' time the tax collector was a much-hated person.

I'm glad you're grateful for your education. If you're so high on giving your money to the government, maybe you should give them more - they'll gladly relieve you of your money.

Cam and socialism
Cam writes: "where would you have lived if some liberal hadn't confiscated the wealth of some hard working person to pay for the federal housing project?"

Taxes are a necessary part of government. Helping those in need who work when they are able (such as my father) is right and proper. It is the liberal idea of giving to those who expect the government nanny to take care of them that's the problem.

"It's been pretty well documented that when white males...apply for jobs or loans, statistically they fare better than their minority counterparts with equal qualifications."

You don't fix one wrong with another wrong.

Hal Donahue
You're kinda funny. Your a man who knows how to deal in misplaced truths and anecdotal evidence.
I figure that we've all fallen short of the glory of God; but how is it that you folks in government feel qualified to extort money from the rest of us to appropriate to your own advantage?
When you follow the government money trail the folks who do best are operatives of government and Government's friends. That is an indisputable fact.

Hal Donahue
"What did Jesus say about abortion which was common then?"

Abortion was common then? Prove it or admit that you are making up stuff to try and bolster your weak arguments.

AJ
"Remember, in Jesus' time the tax collector was a much-hated person."

This is because Hebrews that collected taxes for the Romans were viewed as traitors. Both Jesus and Paul appreciated the value of government. It sounds like you may know but not understand the Bible.

I'll grant you that homosexuality (like many other accepted practices) is counter-scriptural. But when 450 animals, including humans, engage in a behavior, it is natural.

Discrimination is treating different groups of people differently. Enforcing the laws of Leviticus on one group of people, but not everyone else, is discrimination.

Back to not understanding the Bible - you sound mighty attached to you wallet. My favorite passage for conservatives - from Deuteronomy 8:

17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

Cam doesn't understand Scripture
The Law - including Levitical ceremonial laws - was only for Israel: Deut. 4:7-8; Lev. 27:34; Ps. 147:19-20; Neh. 9:14; Mal. 4:4; Acts 15:5, 24; Rom. 2:14; 2 cor. 3:7-7, 11, 14; Gal. 3:25 and Heb. 7:12, 18. Jesus cancelled the ceremonial for Israel also.

Even in the animal realm homosexual behavior is not natural, no matter how many do it. Numbers involved in a practice is not proof that practice is natural. Biology 101 says homosexual behavior is unnatural.

Cam says: "Virtually all Christians don't ask women to remain silent in church, why should we ask homosexuals to remain celibate?"

Wow, how "apples and oranges" can you get? One is a moral law, the other is not. The only sexual relations that are not sinful are those between a husband and wife. Anything else is a sin. Only homosexuals who claim to be Christian are asked to remain celebate. To the rest, we just don't want to be forced to sanction it nor do we want it force-fed to our children in school.

Cam says: "Scientists speculate that homosexual behavior might exist in communal species because there is an advantage for a species to have members that are productive but not reproductive. Indeed childless gay people pay taxes to our schools."

Ah, the same "scientists" who claim evolution as true? The whole idea is ludicrous. And childless heterosexual people also pay for schools. So what; public education is beneficial to society as a whole. That's what the government is for.

Cam: "Do you believe that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Would that imply that we should have a maximum wage?"

Again showing your lack of understanding. Jesus was talking about greed. Wealth is not sinful; greed is. God gave Solomon wealth. The comment was about a rich man who wouldn't leave the money behind to follow Jesus.



quiet Holier than thou
Please cite where your ceremonial vs. non-ceremonial laws are described in the Bible. Also explain why laws on garment making are ceremonial where sexual conduct is not.

"Ah, the same "scientists" who claim evolution as true? The whole idea is ludicrous."

Genesis tells us that after eating from the Tree of Knowledge, people begin to engage in agriculture and childbirth becomes painful - all Darwinian. Childbirth is painful for humans and not other animals because our brains are large and our bipedal skeletons cause babies to pass through the birth canal in an "L" shape rather than a straight shot. Large brains and bipedalism are major evolutionary milestones. Denying the process of evolution is denying God his greatest creation.

Hal and Cam
If you want to reject the Bible, that's up to you. But don't mislead people as to what it says.

You don't seem to know much about what Jesus said. On many issues, this is pretty easy to figure out. You can even get a Bible with red words. Of course, sometimes you must understand the context.

Jesus said: "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 1For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean' . . .." Matt. 15:18-20.

Jesus said: "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev. 21:7-8.

Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matt. 5:18.

Now the context that is required is to understand that "sexual immorality" included homosexuality. This is made clear in both the Old and New Testaments.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Lev. 20:13.

Hal and Cam cont'd
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Rom. 1:22-27.

Cam
Re the ceremonial law, here are some examples:

Jesus said: "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" Matt. 15:11.

Peter's vision in Acts 10:9-15 explicitly allows him to eat animals previously considered "unclean."

Paul rebuked Peter in Gal 2:11-14 for refusing to eat with gentiles.

These are all examples of a change in the ceremonial food laws set forth in the OT.

Another example is the explicit abandonment of circumcision requirements. Rom. 2:25-29, 1 Cor. 7:19.

GG
I don't reject the Bible. "Blessed are the Peacemakers." "You can't serve God and money." I'm all for it.

I can cite you even more passages that address homosexuality. Doesn't it concern that of all the acts described as sinful in the Bible, only homosexuality is innate? Did you choose your sexual orientation? Do you supress attractions to people of your gender? Let God do the judging. In the meantime, it's mean spirited to deny people you've never met and do you no harm equal inheritance and hospital visitation rights.

I'll assume that after 50 or so posts, no one is willing to try to defend unprovoked invasions, torture, or opposing universal health care from a scriptural basis.

GG
You left out repealing prohibitions against men cutting their hair. I have to assume now that "ceremonial" is your (conservatives') creation. Again, why is making a garment of two different types of threads or not mixing crops in a field ceremonial?

My last shot
Cam writes: "Please cite where your ceremonial vs. non-ceremonial laws are described in the Bible. Also explain why laws on garment making are ceremonial where sexual conduct is not."

As I pointed out, this is too involved to instruct you here. If you really care, there are plenty of resources available for your research.

"Genesis tells us that after eating from the Tree of Knowledge..."
They ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

"...people begin to engage in agriculture and childbirth becomes painful - all Darwinian."

No, that is not Darwinian.

"Childbirth is painful for humans and not other animals because our brains are large and our bipedal skeletons cause babies to pass through the birth canal in an "L" shape rather than a straight shot. Large brains and bipedalism are major evolutionary milestones."

Who says childbirth for animals is not painful? How many animals have you asked? I have watched animals give birth and it sure looks like pain is involved.

"Denying the process of evolution is denying God his greatest creation."

You've got to be kidding! God did not use evolution. The God of the Bible doesn't need trial and error. Besides which, there is nothing about evolution that is true - it is all speculative.

I'm done with this. It has taken too much of my time today. It is obvious that you, Cam, are not open to learning the truth about the Christian faith and proper hermenuetics of the Bible.

Good night.

Cam
Start citing those passages, like the one in Genesis where the men of Sodom and Gomorrah violently sought sexual relations with the men visiting Lot's family. Or the Gileadites in the book of Judges who sought homosexual relations with the visiting priest.

God judged them for their sin, as He will judge the murderer, the thief, the liar, the adulterer, the covetous, the idolatrous (you DO worship the state, don't you?).

God says all have sinned and fall short of His glory. God calls on all to repent and believe that Christ died for their sins. For those that believe and turn from their sin, He gives everlasting life.

Repent and believe the Gospel...Good night...

Hal
"What did Jesus say about abortion which was common then?"

That's a typical liberal talking point. Like most liberal talking points, it's highly flawed.

In the first place, while abortion was practiced throughout the Roman Empire, it was not practiced in Jewish communities (in case you've forgotten, Jesus was Jewish). If Jesus thought a woman had a right to abortion, why did He not say so? He certainly wasn't afraid to go against the Jewish religious leaders, so why did He not do so on this issue? Could it be that He agreed with them?
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