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Tuesday, March 25, 2008
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Typical
by Cal Thomas
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I am a typical white person, as Barack Obama might say, and did say, about his white grandmother. Like Rev. Jesse Jackson, I, too, have crossed the street to avoid a group of young black men who have a certain thug-in-the-hood look about them. Am I a racist? Only if Jesse Jackson is a racist. In fact, we are prudent.

On his old CNN TV show, Rev. Jackson and I once debated affirmative action. He favored it. I opposed it. I asked him, "Do you think you have this show because you are good or because you are black?" Jackson was speechless (a rarity) and he went to a commercial to keep from answering.

As I watch the exciting NCAA Basketball Tournament, I notice that most of the players are black. On some teams, all the players are black. Should an affirmative action program create slots so more whites, Hispanic and Asians can play, or should the best players be on these teams, without regard to race? The question should answer itself.

In his speech last week on race, Sen. Obama said blacks and whites have legitimate grievances and that whites who never owned a slave, or supported the slave trade, or knowingly discriminated against any African American have a right to be angry when affirmative action favors someone of a different race for a job for which they feel they are qualified.

The grievances of African Americans are starker. Their ancestors were kidnapped and brought to a country that was foreign to them and enslaved by mostly (but not exclusively) white people. Although the actions of a 19th-century Republican president freed them, 20th-century Democratic politicians discriminated against them, defiantly standing in schoolhouse doors, blocking their way to a better future.

This accusatory back and forth between races will continue beyond the current election unless all of us stop replaying past grievances. One can criticize some of what Obama said (and I have), but his appeal to lay the past to rest and move on to a better future is compelling and worth discussing.

One of the best tools I have seen that could help bridge the racial divide is a PBS documentary series called "African American Lives." Its creator and host is Harvard professor Dr. Henry Louis Gates Jr. The program is a rarity in television. It informs without bias.

This four-part series features Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi Goldberg, Bishop T.D. Jakes, Quincy Jones, Mae Jemison, Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot and Chris Tucker. Using DNA, the program traces their ancestry. Some have firm roots in African tribes, but others are surprising. For instance, Gates, who is African American, found that much of his DNA could be traced back to Ireland.

"African American Lives 2," the sequel to the original program, traced the lineage of comedian Chris Rock, singer Tina Turner, Oscar-winning actor Morgan Freeman Jr., and magazine publisher Linda Johnson Rice, among others. Using courthouse documents, plantation ledgers and slave ship records, the subjects learn surprising things about their forebears. One of Rock's ancestors was a South Carolina state senator. One of Turner's ancestors founded the school she attended as a child, though she didn't know about the genealogical link until the program revealed it in a touching moment.

I defy anyone but the most ardent racist to watch this series and not be transformed by what it reveals. I have spoken and exchanged e-mail with Dr. Gates and he says the main message in these programs is that slavery was more about economics than race.

More than slavery and discrimination, the loss of faith and family can be seen as the root of many of the problems in the black community. Even during the worst of times, black families held themselves together by holding onto God. Today, some have lost that faith and chaos threatens, chaos that Barack Obama - or anyone else - cannot repair.

The New York Times Magazine once did a cover story on prosperous black families in Prince Georges County, Md. What these families had in common, other than race, was that all were intact.

Unfortunately, those families are not typical. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2004, just 31.9 percent of black households had both spouses present, compared to 56.1 percent for white households. Hopefully, when intact black families become typical, many of the self-inflicted maladies in the black community will finally become atypical.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Loss of faith in the black community
One of the saddening things about the problems currently experienced by most people in the black community is that they have not "lost" their faith, but have been misled by their own preachers who have presented the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in a distorted picture. Everyone has heard about the "prosperity gospel" and the "God just wants you to be happy" line. But where does the truth of the Bible come into those themes? There are many people in the black communities who are trying to improve their own lives and the lives of their families and neighbors. But they are not able to overcome the effects of media hype and false teaching. They are the ones who believe that the Word of God is true and that He is faithful to His promises to meet the needs of those who seek Him. It is a shame that this nation has been inundated with words which inflame rather than heal. Americans,no matter their race,color,or gender,who love God and our country will find common ground on which we can unite our minds to vote with wisdom.

Cal
"More than slavery and discrimination, the loss of faith and family can be seen as the root of many of the problems in the black community. "

An article you might want to read.

The image is straightforward and devastating. Morris writes, "The slaves were divided into two lots, and the heirs drew the lots from slips of paper marked Lot 1 and Lot 2." Morris then reproduces the names of the people who were placed in each respective group.

The list clearly shows that families were separated—husbands and wives, a mother from her infant—all to satisfy the property interests of the white slave owners who had the power to (and did) treat black slaves as something on the order of cattle.

Whenever I read this passage I am struck by how this episode reveals the rock-hard essence of American slavery: one group of people under the whim and control of another. Families were torn apart—or lived with the constant threat of separation—not because of the vagaries of nature, primitive health care, or dangerous occupations, but in the ordinary course of a social, economic, and legal system that promoted these types of atrocities.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0204_030204 _jubilee3.html

MY Ancestors NOT SLAVE OWNERS

WHAT i Hear in Obama and his wife's speeches and the speeches of their hate filled bigot mentors is that WHITES "OWE" Blacks big time.

MY ANCESTORS did not come to the USA until 60 years AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, they were not slave owners.

WE have already paid over 40 trillion in reparations under every imagined affirmative action claim.

EXACTLY HOW MUCH MORE ARE THEY GOING TO DEMAND FROM US for crimes we never committed.

Asians, Russians came to the USA without a dime in their pockets.
Unlike Obama's people, mentors, circle of friends,
they are so grateful to be in America

they did not
1. deal drugs
2. have gang wars
3. riot, loot, burn and destroy property
4. they can READ, SPEAK ENGLISH
5. they have a strong work ethic and never took a dime of welfare
6. they saved and invested.
7. they obyed the laws

Typical race speech
Good thing your not Obama, or you would be next one to burn on the cross of daily attacks. If I was to criticize your speech, I would say the same things Obama's attackers have said about his speech. The first thing to come out of my mouth is you left out the opportunity, or you didn't address this, or your speech didn't put an end to racism. What about intellectual dishonesty? That should be good for about a week of attacks. I would then find a way to say because of your hidden racial issues, it's your character and judgment thats been damaged, and no telling when the lack of character, and bad judgment might endanger those around you, especially if you should win the Presidency. It was just a typical speech after all.

The bottom line
is this is an 'evil' world system. Pretending about it and/or resenting it feeds and strengthens the grip of the system.

People need to know the truth found in God in Christ to find the hope of freedom they thirst for and need. The system won't change until He returns but individuals can change until then.

Oppression is FABRICATED

We grew up in Minnesota and I never saw a BLACK Person until I attended college. (PS I worked 2 jobs to pay my way) Unlike Michelle Obama who says USA is cruel to make her pay the student loans for her IVY LEAGUE Education on her 350,000 per year salary.

We have spent 40 trillion over the past 30+ years on affirmative action programs: aka reparations.

EXACTLY HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH ????

Refugees like Asians and Russians were oppressed and abused in their countries, they came to America without a dime in their pockets and never complained. They are successful, educated and obey the laws and never ask for a dime of welfare. They do not deal drugs either.
Welfare was not a way of life for them.

NOW WE ARE STILL HEARING about 100 years ago:

WHAT IS THEIR EXCUSE ?

My Ancestors came to the USA through the legal means 60 years after the civil war ended.
No one in our family owned slaves or abused any blacks.

THEIR Oppression is Fabricated, exaggerated, distorted and a perpetual shake down. MAKE the Whites feel guilty and make them pay and pay and pay for crimes they never committed.

I HEAR IN OBAMA's speeches that we must pay and pay and pay.

WHEN does personal responsibility kick in for Blacks? 100 more years from now or 300 years from now?




Common Enemy Needed
Like all societies and administrations that are
decaying internally, a common enemy is needed. Anger, focused on this outsider keeps us from
looking inward! No one is in danger of dying from a malady that is "external". To be fatal, it must be internal. If the Black, hiphenated
are to avoid looking in the mirror, the evils of whities and horror of horrors, "Rich Whities"
must be refreshed in our individual and collective conversations and family communications. This justifies all minority failings. Fortunately, only the Black population
seems to revel in their travails. Like an old maid aunt who can talk of nothing but her illnesses, the Blacks in this country worship the glass that is only half full. Wouldn't have it any other way!

Think I am being to harsh? Consider the primary elections just behind us. In predominately non
Black states, White American Voters willingly demonstrated a willingness to move beyond those
divisions while the Blacks insisted on remaining
embittered, self identified victims. This problem will remain too big for solution as long
as the Black child is emersed in this victimhood and hatred learned first at his Mothers knee and
reinforced everywhere he turns in the Black community and most athoritativly, Black Churches!

Are they eager to move to the point where they can say,"Don't feel sorry for me folks, the choices were my own".

Ardent racist?
I don't know if I am an ardent racist, but thanks Cal -- I don't need to be "transformed" any longer. At 44 YOA, I've had 40 years of being told how much this country sucks due to slavery. Tired of it, pal. So, I think I will stay untransformed and continue to hold each person and myself individually accountable for his or her actions.

Obama on top due to playing race card

Cal Thomas has written: “One can criticize some of what Obama said (and I have), but his appeal to lay the past to rest and move on to a better future is compelling and worth discussing.” I respect Mr. Thomas’ opinions and enjoy his columns.

But I must disagree with Mr. Thomas on this matter. To get the primaries votes, Obama did play the race card repeatedly. That’s why we shouldn’t just forget that and pretend it didn’t happen. Obama practically has the Democratic nomination, and he got it by age-dividing and race-dividing speeches. It took the major media four years to finally bring up Obama’s pastor’s inflammatory speeches. Regardless of what happens, I do not respect Obama. He has obtained what he wanted by divisiveness but now talks of uniting people. That’s easy to say now that he has practially secured what he wanted by divisiveness. This is a presidential election process we’re involved in for the leader of our nation. Mr. Obama displays poor judgment and a lack of integrity even at lower levels of service.

Obama told Mississippi voters, ”They’re trying to hoodwink you” because he didn’t like what Hillary Clinton said to him. Obama nudged African-Americans in the South by saying, ”You know the ole’ Okey-Doke.” Few in the media reported these remarks but TownHall News did. Obama has tried to win the vote by taking back to the 1960’s African-Americans whose ancestors were slaves. I don’t respect that he has riled up people in order to further his career. He has played the race card so voters would focus on himself as an icon in this country rather than looking at his uber-liberal voting record. Again, that’s why we shouldn’t just forget that and pretend it didn’t happen.

Slavery
The constant drone of "we were slaves" rhetoric is so old. America is racist is just a lot of victim mentality that is on the news all the time. If they are so concerned about slavery, why don't they do something about slavery today in Africa? Most of countries in Africa still have slaves i.e Sudan, Niger etc. and the slavemasters are muslim and other black task masters. The richest woman in America is Black, if we are so racist how was she able to do that?

Racists?
And what about my great-great-grandfather who was commanding officer of Company F, Ohio Volunteer Infantry, fighting in some of the worst battles of the Civil War to FREEEEEEEEEE the slaves?!!?!? How many whites have ancestors that did that rather than own slaves? Yet we are all to pay reparations for the minority of whites who owned slaves?

Cal Thomas has hit the nail on the head - the problem of failing black communities is primarily to be left at the feet of the back communities. Their faith for the most part seems to be either the heretical Word of Faith or the cultic Black Liberation Theology. Neither of which has the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. As long as they listen to the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and, yes, Jeremiah Wright, they will remain victims of their own making. And as long as they vote for the Democrats, they will be treated as people who are unable to do anything for themselves and who must have the government help.

Cal misses the mark
Cal's article, though meant to be well-meaning, misses the point. It is precisely "faith" that is the source of much of the divisiveness we see: Wright's Trininty Church, the "Reverends" Sharpton and Jackson, radical Islam, etc. They all have way too much "faith."

What we need is less blind belief and more reason (and as urged in an earlier post by Ph.D., J.D.) individual responsibility, not identity-group politics.

Obama and his so-called "black liberation theology" are simply a particularly crude form of Marxism just as racism is the most primitive form of collectivism. Observe that Obama's voting record in the Senate is to the left of Pelosi, Kennedy, Hillary, and even avowed socialist Bernie Saunders. If you're to the left of a socialist, you're a Marxist.

Social pathology (broken families, crime, substance abuse, welfare dependence) is at least 1000 times more to blame than racism or any asserted "legacy of slavery." Whites who engage in these pathologies fare no better.

Proud to be an American
seemed to be a foreign concept to Michelle Obama who ashamedly attended Princeton for 4 years and then equally, without shame, attended Harvard Law School.

Just on a whim, I counted up the number of years that the OBAMA family received in scholarships from a host of learning institutions beginning with Barack's Mother and Father. Starting with Stanley Ann Durham, she was on a full 4 year scholarship at the University of Hawaii and also gained a spot to study for a Doctorate but I won't count that or the number of years she received welfare, complete with food stamps while gaining her education. So let's just mark her up for 4 years.

Then we have Barack Obama's full scholarship plus living allowances at the University of Hawai'i for 2 followed by 2 more at Harvard.

Turning to Barack Obama, the son, we have 8 years at Punahou, one of the more expensive schools in the USA, academically on a par with Exeter, Phillips, Lawrence, Hotchkiss and obviously, any school in the State of Hawai'i. Then 2 at Occidental, and 2 more at Columbia with 3 more at Harvard Law. That's 15 years for him. Throw in another 7 years for Michelle, another 4 for her brother and we're up to to 34 years of scholarship aid.

By today's standards, that's pushing close to one million dollars in these two families. That doesn't account for the welfare assistance or food stamps.

I'm 72 years old, kids and grandkids, no scholarships, no welfare and no food stamps.

What's wrong with me? I've always been Proud to be An American...is that a character defect? I stand at attention for the National Anthem, I'm not into the "sometimes I do and sometimews I don't" notion.

But here's a difference. My maternal grandparents spent their adult lives working on a plantation as did my Mother, her 5 sisters and one brother. And if you think that plantation wasn't just as diffiult as the slave days of our yesteryear, you just try it someday........


Intact families
Cal could have used the example of intact families without mentioning race. If he would do the research, he would find that any broken home has the same problems regardless of race.
It is not about race, it is about morality.

Alloys
The problems minorities have today, those problems caused by racism in the past, are mostly caused by addiction to victimhood today. There is no longer the kind of racism that led to Jim Crow laws in the past. There is only the desire of minorities to maintain their own culture separate from the American culture. Choosing to remain separate can only lead to poverty and lack of opportunity. The only way to break the bonds of poverty is to become part of the whole, part of the greater American culture.

America is great because she is an alloy of many, not an amalgam.

Typical: by Cal Thomas
The typical things that is missing most in culture and civilization
Elements that keeping this country in xenophobia division is the
Lack of Real Justice and I don’t mean kangaroo court system,
Where groups of the Privileged and the Powerful make there
Address and Living. But Justice for all It citizen.

Education is key’s to the source economical freedom has
To be more initiative form other academic freedom
Acknowledgement the avenue of Education Institutional
Learning skills in life above all area knowledge and wisdom
A Real Education!

Let me quote this from Amos 5:24 But let Justice Run down
Like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.

Typical Whitey
I am a Typical White Woman who has had Black tnagrs and young men curse at hr with a smirk on their faces, and has had Black boys slap books and magazines out of my hands on a bus and a subway because they knew a scream of YOUARACIST! protects them from all punishment. I have twice pulled a knife to protect myself against Typical Black Persons who promptly decided they would rather harass someone else. I have lost a job because an anonymous Black person (I knew who she was, but the law protected HER) accused me of Racism for saying that I couldnt believe a playoff game was pre-empted by a Black telethon.

My auntie (now 75) taught school in Alamaba for 40 years and was told frequently at the beginning of a school year that *Mama say I dont have to listen to no old White woman.*

If we are going to play Lets Whine About Oppression, I can match whines with any Black brat in America.

But why should I? I put my faith in Civil War. I truly believe that one day some Black kid is going to take one step too far, and then the shooting war will start and where that will end, nobody knows. Just keep poking us with sticks, Black folks. Just keep it up.

P.S.
If you want another eight years of this, vote for Obama (or stay home and sulk). If you would like to move on, McCain.

Taft
The images of slavery ARE horrible. The thought of being able to decide for another human being how they will live is repugnant to me. The mere thought of someone being able to wrest a babe from his mother's arms makes me physically ill. The idea of losing a spouse to a bill of sale reduces me to quivering anger. But it is now, and will forever remain, history. Thank goodness I, or anyone else, no longer have that power.
We cannot change the past, we can only try to influence the future.
Get over it.

Obama, Race
obama's ancestors were not slaves in America. Tzo me and millions of other Americans, race doesn't matter, what does is how the person lives. Man, woman, makes no differance. Do they obay the laws, are the friendly, will they help their neighbors. Thats how I look at things. I would rather have a good black, hispanic, or any other minority living next to me than a white who steals, is into drugs, is a drunk, how about you? I have such neighbors and they are really good neighbors. Race doesn't matter, whats inside does. Obama is simply playing his race card. I look at his associates in his past since he hasn't a long public record. Not color. Americ is ready for a minority president. Or a woman. But not a person, of any race, or a woman of any race, that has changes like Obama wants to make. he talks a good line and there is where it ends.

Civil War = Payment
Why isn't this brought up every time some fool calls for reparations, etc.? The dead soldiers should ALONE atone for any irrational guilt whites might feel (who were not even born then). You know why it isn't brought up? Because of political correctness.

I would not be surprised if eventualyl we have speech codes that prevent the kind of discussion we are having today under the notion that it is racist.

SO tired of this cultural idiocy. I thought about it last night, and false accusations of racism should be condemned EVERY bit as much as real racism (which probably exists still in US, but PLEASE tell me who really thinks blacks or any group is innately superior or inferior).

Indeed, this white guilt thing is the result of psychological bullying at its worst.

Ph.D, J.D.
Excellent point! Yes, it would seem that 600,000 Union and Confederate Civil War dead, together with the destruction of practically all of the wealth generated from slave labor (probably in the trillions of dollars in today's currency--can you say "General Sherman?") constitutes blood atonement.

But I forgot, they don't teach such things in History classes anymore, so let the whining continue...

Thoughts on Cal and Obama.
Cal's first paragraph is right on target. And the fact that Obama made his "typical white person" remark in Philly shows how lost he is on the race issue. As we speak, the murder rate in Philly is off the charts. Any sane person (I'm sure that includes his grandmother) SHOULD be concerned when a young blacks walk down a street.

But there's something else, something more important about race and Obama. He continues to preach that race is some sort of all consuming issue. If solved, he tell us, everything will be peachy keen. Does he really think race is the most important issue confronting America today? He has stated so!

Here's a news flash.

The United States is under the constant threat of depraved killers who have been trying to destroy America. If you're black, white, red or yellow they could care less. They do care about your religion, however. In fact, one of their leaders only a sort time ago warned all Americans to convert to the Muslim faith. Maybe Obama should think about religion instead of race.

Here's another news flash for him.

The country is on the verge of financial disaster. Soon interest rates will be down to zero but "for sale" signs on front lawns will still be up.

Of course, I may be wrong. All we have to do is get this race thing cleared up and everything will be fine. Just ask Obama. He'll tell you.

audie
excellent post- right on the money-keep that knife handy and supplement it with a bazooka-you'll need it if this racist gets elected.
You'll need it more if he doesn't- stolen election etc- arghhhhhhhh!!
on the other hand--as has been said --bring it on !

It's perpetual slavery.

Message to Blacks:

Affirmative action is perpetual slavery. So-called "Black Community activists" pushing for it are worse than the plantation owners of your ancestors.

Free yourself from their thrall and refuse special treatment. Until you do, you will forever be 2nd class citizens because affirmative action, "Black Studies" programs and anything else that singles you out because of your skin pigmentation degrades your status to that of 2nd class citizen.

Stop applying for "minority" scholarships and "minority" grants and stop enrolling in "minorty" programs. Join the mainstream and become 1st class citizens. Many of you are already doing it but too many of you are taking the lazy way out and relying on special treatment. It's a trick. Don't fall for it.

Schleps like Sharpton and Jackson rant about a "racism" that does not exist and has not existed for decades so they can have careers. But their victory in earning you special treatment actually locks in your status as 2nd class citizens.

You can end the perpetual slavery of affirmative action by just saying "no" to special treatment.

Obama is unreliable
because he has a deep psychological need to belong resulting from his birth as a white/black child abandoned by his father and raised by white grandparents in a white milieu. The radical African centered church has given him that belonging.

In many ways he is also like Bill Clinton whose background also gave him a tremendous need to be liked. Such needs make both Obama and Clinton unreliable in that they say what they need to say in order to be liked and to achieve what they feel they need.

EXCELLENT Column!

My daughter spent one year in "public" high school. I remember the day she came home livid almost beyond words that the blacks had demaded a "Black Student Union" on school property....

Of course she said, "Mom, can you just imagine what would happen if the other students demaded a "White Student Union?"

This is not new. Just more of the same.

Thomas has said the same thing that other successful African-Americans, such as Bill Cosby and Clarence Thomas have said... and have been vilified for it.


And here's a thought. Why are we finding Africans struggling and sacrificing to get an education and COME TO AMERICA to further their education, and like so many others, WANTING to become CITIZENS?

Could it be that it's really NOT a bad as Jackson/Sharpton/Obama, etc., etc., etc. would have us believe? I think so.






Thanks To Wright
Blacks have jumped the shark. We have had about enough of their victimhood and wallowing in slavery. Why aren't they blaming the Africans who collaborated with the Arab slave traders?

Enough, already!

kapahulu writes:"Why aren't they blaming

the Africans who collaborated with the Arab slave traders?"

Good point! But that would take away from the blame America for thier victimhood, and then what would Jackson and Sharpton do...

Or for that matter, what would the libs do?





Can any white person in denial
about the realities of racism.

Can you accept a challenge and answer this question?

If watching movie stars and models can make little white girls starve themselves with anorexia, what can the effects of generations of being protrayed as,"Amos and Andy, pimps or hoes, or gangsters", be on young black teenagers?


The true nature and proof that discrimination is right in your faces.

Audir10 Wrote:

But why should I? I put my faith in Civil War. I truly believe that one day some Black kid is going to take one step too far, and then the shooting war will start and where that will end, nobody knows. Just keep poking us with sticks, Black folks. Just keep it up.




Not a good idea. The country tried it before, and it didn't turn out so well.(well it did for the good good guys, not the bigots)

Good point kapahulu
Also, it is noticeable that the slave trade STILL GOES ON in Sudan, which (last I checked) is an African nation!

Taft
You keep telling us what happened in the past. Slavery was horrible. "We" get it. Families were separated, "We" get it.

However, "We" were not involved. "We" never owned a slave. I have checked into my family's past and followed them from England, Scotland and Ireland into South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi and Texas. They owned no slaves.

"We" will treat all people well. "We" are tired of the excuses and the victim BS. "We" are tired of throwing tax money at the problem when the "victims" will not help themselves.

I was born in 1949 not 1849. The house we lived in until I was 7 was a 3 room shack with no indoor plumbing, a wood stove and only a fireplace for heatr. We had a 2 seater outhouse. (No Moon on the door).

My father was an alcoholic and my mother worked her hands to the bone in a cloting factory to keep us fed and clothed. The old man got into AA and got it together. Our lot improved. "We" took no welfare. By hard work and the grace of God family survived and prospered.

That can happen to any family in this country who puts forth the effort.

"We" are tired of victims. "We" had noting to do with their situations and "We" are tired of being blamed for all their ills.


seesthe light
Your comments are so true. The pastor is often placed on a pedestal, in not just black churches but in white and mixed churches and he can do no wrong. Rather than question the questionable
theology, many buy in to it, it's no longer
about Christ and Him crucified but as you said,
prosperity gospel, etc. It is also about race and unforgiveness. Instead of what would Jesus do, it's more like what will Jesus say to these false prophets and the poor souls that have been duped.
The typical white person must mean me also and I
have an adopted son who is as mixed as Obama,
also having a black birth father. But a couple of weekends ago while on a trip, my husband stopped at a gas station. After gassing up he
went into the store, much to my discomfort because there were a couple of young black men
dressed in the hoodlum costume. He related to me as we left that he was uncomfortable too. His grandfather was American indian so it wasn't a question of racism but as Cal said, being prudent.

Free Will
Everyone in this country has free will to make life choices. Everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want to be - no one has to be a victim. Unfortunately there are many in this country who wish to blame unfortunate circumstances on someone else - or their skin color, or the government - its called victimhood. Jesse Jackson and Sharpton have made a career out of it. Welfare in this country started it all when some people decided they would rather take handouts from the government instead of taking the opportunity of schooling, working hard, and seeing a rewarding life. Personally I am sick of the blame game - it has gone on long enough. There are successful Blacks (as Whites, Asians, Natives) in every walk of life - and I'm certain they weren't all handed a silver spoon. We are responsible for our own lives - no one else can make a life for us - it's a choice as to what road you wish to walk down.

Anne
We know of one young Haitian man who would love to return to this country. He was an exchange student that a member of our church brought to the services. This young man has God's Hand upon him and there's is such joy within him. If anyone should be angry about his ancestral slavery, it's this young man. He is struggling
to help young children attend school so they
can improve their lives and that of their country. When we hear whining about how hard the black population has it here, they are rich compared to his lot in life. His perspective is
from his faith in God, and his time with us enriched our congregation immensely.

Question for HeavyDoug
Are white people portraying black people as "pimps, hoes, and gangsters"? The anwswer is NO! Black people are revelling in it and calling themselves those names in the name of celebrating their "culture" and making buckets of money. SO, your analogy is false. Try again. But thanks for playing.

Bubba
Then you are officially invited to sit down and shut up. Or help. It may not be you personally,(ya think?)hurting the black community, but what is happening to black people is undeniable.

Part of being an American is knowing the other guy's story and helping when you can. You don't have to lead a peace rally but at least pay attention.
I help you, you help me. Hello? Other than that what's your gripe? Go sit in the corner and and let real men form the nation.

By the way, I noticed you didn't answer my question.

Sound Biblical Doctrine
Faith and going to church are only helpful if your pastor is preaching the actual Word of God. Jesus Christ was the real "post-racial" leader.

Galatians Chapter 3

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Christians are the same race, from the same "seed". There should not be a "black church tradition" or a "white church tradition", only the Good News of Christ Crucified and resurrected.


heavydoug

I think you're being disingenuous. I'm too young to remember Amos and Andy, but I have heard they were radio comedians. Sidney Pottier was portrayed as a gentlemen. You can see "To Sir with Love" on movie channels even today. The real problem was that for a long time there were no, or few, blacks portrayed on TV or in the movies at all.

You will have to enlighten me as to what shows were on TV and what movies were made that portrayed blacks as whores, pimps, gangsters, and not just one incidence but for generations. I've never heard or seen this.

I do remember lots of black TV programs that have been on for years that feature very wealthy black families.

Let's see, your contention is thus: white people invented vile caricatures of blacks to force them to adher to those caricatures. This sounds like another ploy to blame white people for the pathologies of black culture.

Tea Party: We need to pray for this

young man...

I've been to Haiti... once, many years ago, and it haunted me for weeks. I'd never seen such poverty with my own eyes before, and those visuals have never left.


And, you make a very interesting and profound point... as did Thomas.

This young man of faith is typical of most others with faith, tend to be responsible and accountable for his choices...


I would suggest that heavy and the other "victims" take a trip to Africa, or Haiti and see what real "victims" are.





This column
is good but misses the mark. Obama words do not match his deeds. He is playing the race card and has no intention of ending racism since it will kill the money train.

What I find curious is that blacks like heavydoug claim that whites do not understand how it feels to be black. We don't understand what generations have gone through. Well if your black and you are so different from whites then how is it that Obama or any other black person can claim total understanding of what whites think, feel, or believe. How is it that blacks can claim they understand the white experience and what we have gone through.

How is it that we can be labeled typical?

Heavy dog
Amos and Andy were played by black actors on TV..My question is when reparations are payed.Who pays Obama and Wrights?Since they both have whites in their families.

Amos and Andy?
The actors who portrayed Amos and Andy were white. The characters they played were black, low-class, and dumb. Many blacks were offended by the show in its day, and even petitioned to have it taken off the air.

I do agree with "goldilocks" that the biggest threat to "black culture" is "black culture", but mainstream white culture does not have clean hands. Has anyone here ever watched the original "Dumbo", with the lazy, stupid "crow" characters? It made me wince.

heavydoug
Who is really portraying black people as pimps, hoes, and gangsters?

Why it is the black people themselves. Need proof? Look to gangster rap for the answers.

On radio
Sorry, I must clarify, the actors who CREATED Amos and Andy, and portrayed them on radio were white.

I have a Question, Mr Thomas
"20th-century Democratic politicians discriminated against them, defiantly standing in schoolhouse doors, blocking their way to a better future."

Today is the future. The obstructionist Democrats were defeated. Is it better for most black Americans? Certainly more "equal". But better?

Single parent homes, uneducated, disproportionally represented in prisons, gangs, drugs... certainly, blacks have more opportunities than ever before. 50 years ago you'd never have seen a black mayor....indicted for spending taxpayer dollars to cover up an investigation into an illicit affair (sounds almost like a white politician (wipes tear from eye).

During the Depression, one of my father's teachers was pontificating on race-relations. She told her class that "whites are up here" (right hand raised) and "blacks are down here" (left hand lowered), and the only way to make the two "equal" would be to raise the blacks (raise left hand halfway) and to lower the whites (lower right hand to match).

I'm reminded of this as I look at popular fashion, music, speech, and the culture in general. It seems we've found an alternative way to make blacks and whites "equal"; (lower both hands to the floor).

cleverness_of_me
Yet no one cried about the movie Dumb and Dumber did they?

Pc'ism is no substitution for real thinking. There is ignoramus' in every race and walk of life.

My black/white grandmother
I wonder what his father, mother would have said about having a white daughter-in-law and her family. I wonder how he feels that his father family/clan who lives in a country where it is still tribal warfare and it is not just a black and white issue but it is which tribe you belong to. President Obama does not want the subjet brought up that there are two type of people in Africa those who are the Masters who rule and then those who are the slaves/servents who serve. President Obama family/clan were the rulers or better his family religion were. Religious warfare within the religion is also very common. Who can bow the lowest.
The slave trade is a form of ethic cleasing since you get to remove a certain type of non-belivers from their land and for a profit sell them to someone else. It also deals in his father religion where all males are required to read, write, and since those others are not of your religion or status it was/is your right to do as you want.
President Obama has that problem where his family/clan may have own slaves in the past and hopefully do not still own slaves/servants today.
President Obama will rule over many differant types of people in the USA those of like mind as his and the others. I wonder if we could sell the others to somewhere else, those who can not read, and write.



Amos and Andy were hilarious
And your average modern commercial is more insulting to white males than Amos and Andy could hope to be insulting to blacks.

Anybody seen "Witless Protection"?
I guess it's okay to stereotype that ethnicity (r-words) since the person doing the stereotyping is of that ethnicity. Just as Amos and Andy would have been okay had they really been black. Right?

Robert - wrong
"But I bet you if someone said "Look at how Iraq is today"...car bombings, no electricity most of the time, 80-100K Iraqis dead, tensions that didnt exist under Saddam etc etc...

I bet that you would say "Yeah but look at what is possible or could happen or the great opprutunity that they have or the old chestnut "Saddam isnt killing people"."

No I wouldn't, because I don't give a bowel movement about Iraqis. I didn't want to go in to Iraq to give them democracy (and we haven't; we gave Japan their modern democracy by crushing their old culture, not coddling it). I wanted to go into Iraq because it was a good strategy for pacifying the middle east.

1950 + 30 = 1980... it's been 50 years, not 30, and it's been MORE than 30 years. The 1950s were not a magical age, that was just the last decade before the decay started in-force.

Please explain to me how promoting sex, drugs, crime, single-parent homes, vulgarity of all forms is going to make blacks "equal"? Just as whites were better people prior to the past 50 years, so were blacks. Oh, but we're not bigotted anymore. That's like saying a $5 a night streetwalker who'll do anybody is better than a housewife who won't even do her husband.

BLOOD IN THE STREETS?

.....Is that what it is going to take to put an end to all this racial nonsense? ...

.....Jefferson said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" ...

.....Political Correctness has been robbing us of our liberty for decades ...race has become a taboo subject and blacks have been pushing the envelope ever since the MLK marches ...for each inch given a foot is demanded ...

.....Some black groups have been pushing confrontation and separatism from whites for years ...The Black Panthers, the NAACP, the Nation of Islam, Obama's Trinity Church of Black Theology, and many more ...so far whitey has been in retreat but it seems as though patience is beginning to become strained and the breaking point is near ...

..... I only see two options:

...1. Blacks put their past behind them and join a multi-ethnic America as equal partners or...

...2. Riots, armed conflict and much bloodletting ...

.....Lincoln said, "A house divided cannot stand" ...something has to give .....COLOSSUS


heavydog Confuses Cause And Effect
heavydog offers, "If watching movie stars and models can make little white girls starve themselves with anorexia, what can the effects of generations of being protrayed as,"Amos and Andy, pimps or hoes, or gangsters", be on young black teenagers?"

Not everyone is a TV or movie maven as you imagine. Also, projecting teenage angst as a media creation is a convenience of ignorance. Little white girls starve themselves because of routine, self-imposed, adolescent peer pressure, not movies. Nobody wants to be called "fat", especially a fragile teenager.

"Amos and Andy", "Burns and Alice", "Abbot and Costello" were fun reflections of us, not the other way around. The cause was real life and the effect was the media. Not the other way around. We always get the truth in our homes and our communities, not in media. Core role models are always local.

As to media portraying for generations, blacks as "pimps, hoes and gangsters", what on earth are you talking about? The first media address of any of this stuff with race focus has only been around for ten years or so. And, most of it has been closer to exceptional documentaries and modern drama than every day stuff.

It is important to get cause and effect in the right order.

AynRand
Hello. I will be nice to you because Ayn Rand is one of my favorite authors. "Atlas Shrugged" and "Anthem" in particular had a big impact on me. So I'm quite glad to discuss some of these things with someone who can (I hope) apply some logic and deductive reasoning.


Here we go:


Human beings set up systems- politcal,economic, social, etc. and these systems get passed down through time, they are our history. Some of these systems are good some are bad.


Is everyone following with me and Ayn?


Now anyone with even a couple of brain cells can figure;the people involved in the system are sometimes not even aware of certain bad things that are happening-let alone are they responsible.

simpler still:

If an American Indian was complaining about the injustices to their people, or Japanese being interred, or Jewish etc. What sense would it make from me to say "well I didn't do it, it wasn't me!"

Please. Stop talking start listening.

Not everything is visible to the naked eye Ayn. It is time for the people with brains and substance(not matter what their color) start looking at these systems and try to change, improve, or dispose of they systems that are not working to EVERYONE'S benefit. Pretending these things don't exist is just folly.(some people know these things-but pretend they don't. wink.)


Slavery and Hate
If slavery is the cause of this hatred and animosity,why does it get worse instead of better? Hundreds of years and millions of reparation dollars later,why is it worse?

It is the left, who has fomented most of this hatred.In their trying to be the "master",they had to do something to make others dependent on them.Now they have an 'underclass',who look to them for their very survival and now they hate the master.

Bill Moyer's home,the left-wing PBS network,is forever showing documentaries and shows,that make the white man ,the bad man who mistreated the black man.I can understand why, with a one-sided tale,over and over,it keeps the hate alive.

This is my take on this.I may be wrong.I have been before,but it is my opinion and if anyone has a rebuttal,and I am sure there will be some,I welcome them.

Reparations
Okay, my great-grandmother was dark enough to be mistaken for an African American. So she must have been at least 1/4. That means my dad grandmother (her daughter) was 1/8, my dad was 1/16, and I am 1/32 black. Several of my ancestors were, undoubtedly, slaves. In fact, my great-grandmother's family history has been documented in a book (you probably can't find it, but it's called "The Echo of the Black Horn"), and there were, in fact, several slaves (and lecherous slave owners) in her family tree.

So, what is cutoff for reparations? What percent AA blood do I have to have to qualify? How many slaves do I have to find in my family tree? Because I'll bet I have more than a lot of African Americans now who want to claim reparations.

Go ahead with your reparations. Just make darned sure that EVERYONE who has a single slave in his family tree gets an equal amount. I suspect you'll have a hard time finding anyone who DOESN'T qualify for reparations.

posters are too fixed on slavery
After slavery there was a 100 years of Jim Crow.

That brings us up to 1965, not too long ago.

Other than that, many posters are on the mark.

Background does not excuse responsibility.

AynRand
Now, about your post.

Actually, it is corporations like Warner, and Time Life, etc. that make the lions share of money off of rap music.

Also 70% of rap music is bought by white suburban teenagers.

Underneath the surface we go Ayn:


Do you think the black teenagers who are going to jail, had the idea,"let's turn this expensive powder cocaine into a more concentrated drug that cheaper and easier to sell in the ghetto."

Really Ayn. Did those same young black people have airplanes and ships to bring it here? Are they making the real profit? Why is crack restricted to just black neighborhoods?(plenty of white customers)Do you really believe law enforcement couldn't shut crack down if they wanted?

Ayn, effective people deal in the currency of truth.





P.S. it is very difficult to get posts to register, anyone else have that problem?

I am another "typical white person"
In 1959 in New York City I was eight years old. Like my older brother and cousin had been doing for years I was told where to catch the bus from Richmond Hill to Jamaica where I went swimming at the YMCA and had other activities. It was 50/50 black/white. We all swam naked. My parents warned me about the naked swim, but never said a word about black and white. When we moved to Texas and went through the old south I saw signs that said WHITE and COLORED over the Laudramats. I asked my mother why people would go to two different laudries instead of just doing their white and colored laundry in separate machines. Duh. I think I am about as "typical" as Baracks views of what white folks are like. http://www.moronpolitics.com

Amos and Andy
little black sambo, tar baby, black face minstrel shows, super-fly, shaft, huggy-bear, tupac, 50 cent, history people!

Ever heard of "birth of a nation?"

How about seeing your Dad get called boy by a white person?

How about your mom or sister gets raped and an all-white jury condones it. Over and over.

How about building a whole extra set of restrooms and waterfountains, just to make black people feel less than anyone else?

Starts piling up doesn't it?

We couldn't even vote when I was a boy and I'm in my mid-forties.

Don't judge the life of a nation like it's your life. 140 years was not that long ago.

Your story is not the only story of this country. Other viewpoints and complaints can be validated.



And on a related subject...
Though reparations has, so far, been politically untenable, liberals have resorted to their tried-and-true method of getting what they want - the courts. African-American organizations have sued companies that "were built on the backs of African slaves", and will likely win. Railroads, banks, and lots of other companies will likely have to come up with billions of dollars because, when they were founded 150 years ago, they took advantage of a practice that was, at the time, legal (the Constitutional prohibition on ex post facto prosecutions should apply, but for some reason it doesn't). The case can be made that these companies were just doing what they had to do to remain competitive with everyone else in their respective industries. Of course, that doesn't excuse slavery as a business practice.

However, far more inexcusable than engaging in slavery as a business practice, is the act of working to keep slavery legal (and thus fostering an economic framework in which businesses had to engage in slavery to remain competitive). What one organization, still in existence today, is most responsible for keeping slavery legal? That would be the Democratic party. Republicans were opposed to slavery from the very beginning of the party. There were other parties that were in favor of slavery, but, except for the Democrats, they no longer exist and cannot be sued. Furthermore, even after slavery was banned, Democrats were most responsible for maintaining segregation and other forms of discrimination against blacks, at least through the 1960s.

So, if you want to sue someone for the atrocities committed against your ancestors, why don't you start with the Democratic party? No one benefitted more than them.

RACE IS A FACTOR
Isn't it interesting that with all of the talk about racism that no mention is made of polls that report (on average) that white voters have split their votes, near 50%, between Obama and Clinton but black voters (around 90%) voted for Obama. Excuse me but it looks like typical black people's are the racist.........

Trevor
Finally, somewith a logic based veiw.

I agree with most of what you said.

I think rascism is deeper than Dem/Repub.

I won't try to whitewash (eck!) the issue. Some blacks have predudice against other blacks. Some Italian gangs fought Irish gangs. We can throw in a few hispanics.. and we got a big ball of confusion. Womens rights,gays, reverse racism, it may never end but not to try is a waste of time.

GOOD OL' BAD GUY
It wasn'y likr that until the ML King stuff Hillary said and some attacks by her advisors that it swung. Blacks loooved Bill Clinton remember?

History
We should not ever forget the conditions all Negros had to endure when first brought to this Country. Hey folks its been over 200 years ago! Many condition did not improve before the beginning of the 1900'S. It's in the past & NO ONE can do a damn thing about those times; there gone & can't be redone.
One fact that is convenient to disregard is the early immigration of Caucasians to this Country. Most were as indentured personage, not much different than slavery in practical terms.
It's time for all people of good faith & character to get beyond the name calling & disrespect of each other & become one nation THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!

Typical Race Hustler
How will Obama forge working relationships with Republicans, when he hasn't been able to even temper the raw hated and distain of his own pastor or fellow congregants? If he's such an agent of "change", then why couldn't he convince those who knew him best, to come around to his self-proclaimed moderate viewpoint(s)? Either he's an ineffective leader OR he agrees with the radical Anti-American, Anti-White and Anti-Israel hate-speech we've heard promulgated at his church? The only other question is - who's the bigger con man, Bubba or Barack? Republicans don't trust Obama now, but after he loses Iraq, puts Israel in jeopardy, establishes Gay Marriage and appoints more Ruth Ginsbergs to the Supreme Court, I'm sure they'll just roll over and join his Kumbaya coalition.

SCREENPLAY Exerpt
As a screenwriter the attempt is to replicate the Davis speech made in Georgia in 1864 as Sherman was advancing east from Atlanta.

________________SCREENPLAY_______________________
They never tell of the many Negroes loyal to their homes loyal to their masters and loyal to our southern cause

Human Sound Effects: LOUDER APPLAUSE

Grant himself was a slave owner with his Missouri slaves never getting their fair share for the hard work that they were forced to do

We all know that it is not the institution of slavery
It is the land and the land requires slave work because without slave workers the land dies and if the land dies we all starve

As we speak here in Georgia the armies of
Sherman are marching eastward through the heart
Of your great state

Apologize For Democrats' Racism
More than 99% of the social problems, crime, schooling, illegitimate children, one-parent families, drug use etc. that affect blacks have ONE CAUSE ONLY.

That cause is WHITE LIBERALS: professors, school teachers, politicians, etc telling blacks that murder, robbery, selling and using drugs, rape, sodomy, child molestation, arson etc, are acceptable-and encouraging blacks to do them.

The liberal Left continues to tell blacks they are 'entitled' to commit these crimes and anti-social behavior because they have a 'right'.

Instead of apologizing for slavery in the 17-19th centuries, we should be aplogizing for what WHITE LIBERALS (Democrats) are doing to blacks in the 21st century (because of their racial hatred of blacks).

boo hoo
"little black sambo, tar baby, black face minstrel shows, super-fly, shaft, huggy-bear, tupac, 50 cent, history people!

Ever heard of "birth of a nation?""

You ever ready Sambo? it's about a clever Indian boy.

Honky, cracker, gringo, rabbiblanco, whitebread, Mic, kraut, frog, canuck, limey, wop... and, of course "redneck".

"How about seeing your Dad get called boy by a white person?"

How about seeing your Dad get called "white boy" by a black person? No, I never saw that because I'm middle-aged, and any black who dared that would end up what is euphemistically known as a "dead n-word". Not by my father; by me. Any white who dared that would end up almost as dead. I might go to prison, but there'd be no repeat of the offense.

"How about your mom or sister gets raped and an all-white jury condones it. Over and over."

How bout your mom or sister gets raped and an all white jury condones it because they are afraid of being called racist for convicting a black of raping whites? over and over.

"How about building a whole extra set of restrooms and waterfountains, just to make black people feel less than anyone else?"

How aobut building a whole extra set of restrooms and water fountains just to make male people feel less than female people?

That was not the purpose of separate facilities. It was to accommodate,not create, the perception that minorities were less cleanly than whites. But in this enlightened age, we all get to experience filthy bathrooms, equally.

"We couldn't even vote when I was a boy and I'm in my mid-forties."

And what have you done with your vote? Ever hear of "40 acres and a mule"? That was 130 years ago. Yeah, right, couldn't vote 40 years ago...


for AynRandLives
AynRandLives writes: "Are white people portraying black people as 'pimps, hoes, and gangsters'? The anwswer is NO! Black people are revelling in it"

Actually, the answer is YES!

Most of those rap albums and movies that glorify pimps are produced by WHITE-owned studios and WHITE-owned television networks and WHITE-owned recording companies, like Time-Warner, that have made a ton of money off those things.

They produce that garbage for the same reason they produce TV shows drenched with sex and violence and lots of other unwholesome stuff: It makes money for their stockholders.

From your ID ("AynRandLives"), I gather you're a strong supporter of the free market. The problem is that the free market is amoral. If you want to produce smut or songs and movies glorifying pimps, prostitutes and drug pushers, and you can find a market for it, who's to stop you?

Conservatives believe that we are constrained in our actions by morality that comes from God. Ayn Rand didn't believe in God.

Typical
Thank you Cal Thomas for your enligtening article. Do you remember the TV series titled "Roots" by Alex Hailey, a black man? According to him the blacks that were brought here were caught by fellow blacks in Africa and sold. Thus, slavery was started from the love of money, not race.

So, how did race get started? Little people need someone they can hold up as less than them and black were handy. Thus predudice arose against them.

If one is hung up on race, a case could be made that Obama is a turncoat. He is half black and half white. Which half abandoned him? The black half, of course. Which half stuck by him and poured themselves into him? The white half, of course. So where does he come off by branding all whites as racist?

No, Mr. Obama is nothing more than a political opportunist. He looks more black than white, so he poses as a black so the far left will champion his cause. I think this man, along with his enlightened hate filled pastor, have set race relations back for a long time to come.

Differences
Social differences, no matter how trivial, breed bias and prejudice. Whether racial, sexual, religious or ethnic, geographic or economic, the disparity cultivates distrust among peoples and groups. Those on the bottom of the prejudice pile must be sensitive to the fact that complaining does not resolve the bias -- only a compeliing spirit of tolerance of others provides the solution.

Anyone...
who encourages us for any reason past or present to think of ourselves first as members of an agrieved group rather than as sovereign individuals with guaranteed rights and liberties under the Constitution... IS THE ENEMY.

This is basically why I think liberalism is the worst enemy minorities, the poor, the elderly, etc have.

I believe either Sun Tsu or the French philosopher of war whose name eludes me said that war is just a natural extension of politics. Whether attempting to dominate an enemy on the field or a people ignorant of their God given rights and liberties.... divide and conquer applies.

More blacks play college hoops
Were college entrance requirements objective and incoming students be required to have performed and passed literacy levels at the 12th grade level in reading, writing, English, history, math, science, etc, if that were the case... then there'd be many fewer blacks playing college basketball... and a lot more Asians and a few more whites. And ditto for college football.

jdw
These responses are terribly weak. I gave you a list of characters(could have given many more) and you chose one to respond about. Rather than argue about "Sambo" I wish you could have address the real issue. That these negative protrayals of blacks are in the american lexicon, and only recently have blacks begun to been seen as complex people.


Then your responded vehemently when you even thought about someone insulting dear old poppa.

This was a reality for black people; being degraded daily for decades. Does any of this register?

You never responded about a predatory justice system. Whites could always go to court and get at least a semblance of justice.


I asked:

How about building a whole extra set of restrooms and water fountains just to make male people feel less than female people?


You answered:


That was not the purpose of separate facilities. It was to accommodate,not create, the perception that minorities were less cleanly than whites. But in this enlightened age, we all get to experience filthy bathrooms, equally.


You proved my point with your own words.



Lastly. The controversy about 40 acres and a mule is that it was promised to freed slaves and never delivered.



MrRoy
Roots was dramatized but most of the background history was true.

Slavery on the west coast of Africa has long been an acceptable practice. It is still in practice. When slaves began to be imported into the New World, whites just represented a new, high demand buyer for slave traders. Africans had been capturing and selling members of other tribes for a very long time.

Part of the attraction to African slaves was the fact that slavery was a cultural norm to so many of them. They accepted being slaves.

In case some don't remember, there was a ready supply of "savages" in America when the whites arrived. Some of them even practiced and accepted slavery... but for whatever reason, they were too difficult to manage. It wasn't just that they ran away... some just flat refused to do the type of work they were being asked to do no matter what happened.

Be Careful What You Wish For, HeavyDoug
If we tote up the account, blacks will end up owing the whites trillions if not more. How do you plan to reimburse us for the money we've thrown down the rathole since FDR and LBJ?

If I were you I'd stop the pity party and look forward. Jeremiah Wright has unwittingly done us all a favor. Now we can actually talk about the povery pimps, grievance industry, perpetual victimhood and affirmative action. You have no one but yourself to blame if your life is miserable.

Black self-reliance
Was systematically crushed.

Did you know there was a Black Wall street near the turn of the last century? Well there was also a massacre. Men, women, children all killed and it was burned to the ground. Success was not tolerated.It also happened to a properous black town in Florida. "Rosewood" it's a movie.

Strong black men, the type that would lead their people, keep the young guys in line, start business, etc. were labeled "uppity" and lynched. Effectively "thinning our herd".

A dysfunctional legal system does that to black men to this day.

heavydoug
What will it take for black people to stop thinking of themselves first as black and second as individuals?

I know all people and especially kids are subjected to peer pressure. But when we are in the process of losing not only the black kids in bad communities but also suburban black children of middle class black families... radical change within the community paradigm is required.

When doing well in school is considered "too white" for a kid in a suburban school that spends about $12K per student... What is the answer?

That may be a problem that all Americans share in but how can anyone rationally blame that even partially on whites?

The newer slavery
WHY WELFARE PASSED BY DEMOCRATS IS THE SAME AS THE SLAVERY ABOLISHED BY PRESIDENT ABRAHAM LINCOLN
1. Victims in both cases were prevented from achieving their potentials.
Both were kept from getting training in trades, etc.

2. Families in both cases were broken up.
Slave family members were sold to different places.
Welfare fathers were not allowed to live with their families.

3. In both cases, women were used for breeding by the people in power.
Slaves were bred to increase the owners’ stables.
Welfare workers received promotions for encouraging teenage girls to get pregnant and go on welfare.

4. Victims in both cases were prevented from being educated.
Slaves were prohibited by law from learning to read and write. Welfare children were discouraged from excelling in school so they could more easily go on welfare.

5. Many people were born into both.
Many people were born slaves, and many people were born into welfare.

6. Escape from both was very difficult.
Slaves had to escape or buy their freedom from willing owners.
Welfare recipients were totally cut off welfare if they wanted to start working their ways out of welfare.

7. Democrats opposed ending both of them.
In 1864, democrat candidate George McClellan planned to rescind the Emancipation Proclamation if elected.
8. In cases, only blacks were eligible for both.
In the Old South, only blacks were slaves.
Welfare workers refused welfare aid to abused white women.

9. Republicans ended both slavery and welfare as they had existed for decades.
Republicans ended slavery with the Emancipation Proclamation, and ended welfare as it was with the 1995 Welfare Reform Act.


kapahulu
Actually whites receive more welfare money than blacks.

And trust me money could never come close to the holocausts-slaveships(this alone is a crime against God and man)-Beating, Lynchings, Rapes, Mothers having their children ripped from them and sold. You can keep the money. Just start acting like responsible human beings.

Also I love all people.

Black people would not be free to this day if it were not for good white people.

Thank you. And you sacrificed your lives to do it.

Thank you.

My Grandparents
They came here in the 1890's and had nothing to do with your enslavement. Working a farm in Ohio and building bridges in NY were their occupations.

I owe blacks NOTHING. 5% of slaves taken from Africa were brought to The States, the rest were taken to work the sugar industry.

Wallow around in your self pity for another 2-3 generations, and see where that gets you.

Good luck.

p.s. heavydoug. If you don't commit a crime how can you be imprisoned? If you don't do drugs how can you become addicted? Simple solutions to your made-up problems.

You have become a tiresome bore. Look in the mirror for your salvation, and tell others like you to do the same.


OK so...
"Black self-reliance
Was systematically crushed."

And you think promoting more dependence is the answer? That is precisely why affirmative action and disproportionate reliance on gov't programs is so harmful to the black community.

"Did you know there was a Black Wall street near the turn of the last century? Well there was also a massacre. Men, women, children all killed and it was burned to the ground. Success was not tolerated.It also happened to a properous black town in Florida. "Rosewood" it's a movie."

Did you know that one of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence and was a prominent colonial lawyer... and that in part due to British oppression during the war left his sons very little?

We can't change history and being limited by it helps nothing.

"Strong black men, the type that would lead their people, keep the young guys in line, start business, etc. were labeled "uppity" and lynched. Effectively "thinning our herd"."

Even at its height, the fear of lynching was far more pervasive than the reality of it... and when the practice pretty much ceased and that fear should have subsided... liberal ideologies of victimhood and dependence began to lynch the souls of black men by freeing them from their responsibilities.


Why do you want black criminals and gang bangers roaming the streets and spreading their disease when black on black crime dwarfs any current effect of institutional racism?

part deux
"A dysfunctional legal system does that to black men to this day."

Yeah... it is the legal system... Try this: Life's not fair and it ain't going to be any time soon. If you don't want to go to prison and can't be confident that you'll be let off the hook at the same rate as another group... DON'T COMMIT THE CRIME!!!!

The fact of the matter is that if black men weren't committing crime at a rate much higher than the national avg then the opportunities to be the victim of some miscarriage of justice would be significantly less.

OTOH, if I were someone like you who I presume to be a pretty intelligent and caring person... Why wouldn't you want as much of the blight on the black community locked up as possible?

I had a black drill sgt working for me in the reserves during the late 80's and early 90's whose civilian job was as a supervisor of guards at a medium security prison. His answer even then was "lock them up and keep them". He said prison doesn't bother them. It's just a normal part of life. They go to prison, get out, recruit young people and make babies, commit more crime, and go to prison again.

heavydoug et al
Let's dispense with the "whites receive more welfare than blacks" non-sense, OK?

While it is true that whites get more transfer payments... that isn't relevant to the conversation, EVER. The relevant fact is that blacks are much more statistically likely to receive welfare than whites.

Whites outnumber blacks by close to 4:1 in America. Blacks would almost have to be at 100% to outnumber whites on the dole.

sjt18
You are aware we are talking about young black people disavantaged by broken families, aren't you.

It is not that simple, Einstein. If it was it'd be handled.




I can't think of any person that doesn't think of themselves as an individual first, sjt18. All black people don't feel the same. A lot are completely unaware of the problems I'm describing. A lot are sucessful too. Everybody's different(sarge).

The question is a little awkward because it starts off weird.


Then sounding or talking too white comes from black young kids trying to bluff about something they are insecure about, their educations. A lack of fathers not making sure they are studious is the culprit.

Obama's image will do wonders however.

Last,

It's not whites thatss the problem. It's they way we, our country(black people too) have been doing things.

You looked up to a guy that jail was the answer. Wow.

Mas, me amigo heavydoug
"Black people would not be free to this day if it were not for good white people.

Thank you. And you sacrificed your lives to do it."

The white people here by and large are still fighting for black freedom... in a different way. The liberals who you think are the friends of blacks are actually the ones trying to keep blacks on the Democrat plantation... Dependent so they'll keep voting the "right" way.

BTW, my ancestors probably owned slaves on one side. Only two things I can assure you of concerning this: my family for the past 3 generations at least has not been rich because of it and I would change it if I could.

If you're white....
If you're white, next time a black person starts whining about the travesties of slavery, just agree with them and start telling how your ancestors were surely slaves, as the blacks in north Africa made slaves of southern Europeans for centuries, and if that wasn't bad enough, then the Romans made slaves of millions of Europeans. Tell him how ashamed you feel realizing that one of your ancestors may have been traded for a dog, so the slave owner could feed his other slaves with the dog. Then carry on about how you might be rich had your ancestors not been slaves and had all the opportunities the slave owners had. How the Roman empire and much of ancient Europe was built on your ancestors backs and how the modern day Romans should give you reparations.

I could carry this concept a little further, but I think you get the point.

heavydoug
Why the hostility?

If indeed blacks do as a rule think of themselves first as individuals... How many of them really have a personal, direct grievance?

IOW's, how many have directly experienced intentional oppression by society at large to such a degree that it justifies hopelessness and hatred?

the question
"You looked up to a guy that jail was the answer. Wow."

Yes. He was one of the finest human beings of any color or shape I have ever known. If every black father was like that man, we wouldn't be having this discussion and certainly wouldn't have 60%+ of black children born illegitimate.

His main thought was this- those guys already in that cycle were not fixable. He had seen the efforts and knew that with that class of criminal, rehabilitation was virtually impossible. He said that by keeping them in prison you at least gave the community a fighting chance to save other young people... and to have the security to live in peace.

sjt18
Look man very simple. We learn right from wrong, work ethic, etc. from our parents. In turn, we teach these things to our children, right?

Well it works the other way too. Your parents learn those things from your grandparents. Ok?

Your grandparents got it from your great-grandparents.

My great-grandfather like many black people my age was a slave. This is not whining or a plea for martyrdom.


It is a fact.


Therefore, in my family my grandfather, father, mother etc. had to teach themselves these things and were fortunate they didn't fall prey to lynchings, legal systems, whatever.

Thanks to them I have a good life, an education etc. Well many of the blacks families in my community have not been so fortunate and those are the ones who have kids in trouble.

Who would you be if no one made sure you could read? Not because they didn't care, but because they couldn't read so well thenselves and didn't know it's value.

It's simple. Common sense.

The perfect phrase describes white people like you.


You, are born on third base... and you think you hit a triple.


BTW
I do know that there are many blacks that reject excuses and refuse to let any obstacle including racism keep them down.

However, when Dems so easily keep the votes of people who on most issues agree with Republicans simply by proclaiming teh GOP a racist party... you have to wonder.

When we see blacks voting their statistically revealed political proportions (about 35-40% GOP) then I'll be completely convinced that race isn't the first filter for a significant majority of black people.

heavy doug
I couldn't agree more that the number one problem for our whole society but in particular the minority portions of it is illegitimacy and broken families.

Even in families where another man heads the home, children from previous relationships suffer more problems. They are more likely to engage in all the social ills plus they are more likely to be abused at home.

The problem reaches all the way down to the sexual mores of the community and society. not only should leaders be decrying single parent families, cohabitation, illegitimacy et al... they should be rallying against promiscuity generally.

The later slavery
WHY WELFARE PASSED BY DEMOCRATS IS THE SAME AS THE SLAVERY ABOLISHED BY PRESIDENT ABRAHAM LINCOLN (WELFARE REFORM PASSED BY REPUBLICANS IN 1995 IS NOT INCLUDED):

1. Victims in both cases were prevented from achieving their potentials.

2. Families in both cases were broken up.
Slave family members were sold to different places.
Welfare fathers were not allowed to live with their families.

3. In both cases, women were used for breeding by the people in power.
Slaves were bred to increase the owners’ stables.

4. Victims in both cases were prevented from being educated.
Slaves were prohibited by law from learning to read and write. Welfare children were discouraged from excelling in school so they could more easily go on welfare.

5. Many people were born into both.
Many people were born slaves, and many people were born into welfare.

6. Escape from both was very difficult.
Slaves had to escape or buy their freedom from willing owners.
Welfare recipients were totally cut off welfare if they wanted to start working their ways out of welfare.

7. Democrats opposed ending both of them.
In 1864, democrat candidate George McClellan planned to rescind the Emancipation Proclamation if elected.
8. In cases, only blacks were eligible for both.
In the Old South, only blacks were slaves.
Welfare workers refused welfare aid to abused white women.

9. Republicans ended both slavery and welfare as they had existed for decades.

You want to talk about me?
OK. My father's family was once landed and more than likely had some slaves working on their tobacco farm. By the time of my grandfather who I can't even remember because he died so young... they were dirt farmers not much better off than a sharecropper. My dad was the youngest of 8. He got one pair of shoes growing up per year... and dared not wear them in the summer or else they'd be too worn out by winter.

I've seen where he grew up... it was no different than the houses where blacks in the same area lived... and they weren't any wealthier. My grandparents were prejudiced and probably bitter since both would have known Civil War vets as children.

My dad joined the army at 17 years old and retired after 21 years. He never moved back home.

My mother's family has been in the southern Appalachians where I grew up for at least 6 generations before me. They were there before the Cherokee were removed suggesting they bought the land they had from them. Claims were only accepted after the removal... and some claims were made and legalized over lands bought by whites... they were often considered colluders by A Jackson.

My mom's ancestors have been trappers, traders, and subsistence farmers for the most part. None have been rich. None owned slaves. Some fought for the South.

My dad graduated HS through an Army program. My mom graduated before leaving home. Both were the first HS graduates in their families for generations. Both were the youngest of 8. None of my grandparents had better than an 8th grade education. Out of about 50 or so cousins... I was the first college graduate.

IOW's, your claim that I was born on 3rd base... is totally ridiculous.

So Impressed
by all these self made giants and social know- it- alls.

Everybody pulled themselves up by the old bootstraps. Ha ha.

You all must be wear capes as you type away. Single handedly taking on the country. You have no idea what it must be like to be an 15 year insecure black kid, with no strong people paying attention. In a neighborhood where law enforcement refuses to get rid of drugs. At 15 thats when the crap usually starts- are you going to tell me you going to go against all the peer pressure and magically pull hard work and an education out of your backside. This ain't the movies.

To be a prison guard for any extended amount of time... chances are your friends have serious issues. There are blacks that hate themselves and become law enforcement to prey on other blacks your buddy sounds like a canidate.


heavydoug
There are many poor white people who had parents who could not read. How many generations do you need to teach you? I don't think common sense and common decency is handed down, it's something you know apriori. You are still looking for excuses.

The hate that blacks feel for whites is handed down easily enough. This accounts for the fact that black criminals choose white victims 45% of the time; black-on-white rape happens 100 times more often the the reverse; and black-on-white robberies 139 times more often. Yet no one ever talks about this. The political correct media that kowtows to black people will never report this. Read the book "The Color of Crime."

I have never treated any black person with anything but courtesy; however, many times I have been treated with disrespect and hatred by black people. They will never be satisfied until every black is rich; every government office across the country is held by a black person; and every white person is rendered powerless and goveling on the ground. But quess what---it isn't going to happen.


heavydoug
heavydoug whines: "The perfect phrase describes white people like you. You, are born on third base... and you think you hit a triple."

The perfect phrase describes black people like you: "You wake up every morning and think you're still living in the 18th century."

Quit your whining. I'm getting sick and tired of blacks like you who use as an excuse, whitey in general and institutional transgressions that were corrected 143 years ago in particular, for the self-induced problems in the black community today.

White people like me, who's ancestors never owned a slave or never discriminated against anyone of any color, and who are being called racists for no other reason than it's blackie's excuse for not cleaning up his own act, are getting sick of your unending display of open sores. Quit picking at the damned scabs and thet them heal!

Save it for the libs and the yokels. I'm not impressed with you any more than "Rev." Wright's whining and thundrous displays of racism.

Racial Injustice
Until we can talk without preaching/condemning and listen without bias, we will never get anywhere. I spent the majority of my life in the civil rights arena. I can attest for a fact that most of the barriers against blacks have been removed. We are much closer to equality today that anybody would have believed 30 years ago.

I would surely agree that most of the problems that blacks endure are self-inflicted. This goes for anyone in that matter. If you take responsibility for yourself, you have much greater control of the outcome. If you release responsibility to someone else, you become subject to the whims/emotions of others.

However, I am convinced that institutional injustice still exists. The vast majority of the time, it takes place in our criminal justice arena. As I posted on another forum:

Two white girls walk into a bank with a note demanding cash or "I will kill you". They escape with almost $11k in cash and promptly go on a shopping spree.
The police catch up with them and do not charge them with bank robbery, but with "theft" (like they stole a candy bar from the 7/11). The girls don't take responsibility for their crime, but blame it on a black guy who told them to do it.
Yesterday, one of the girls gets sentenced to 2 years in jail. The other one gets probation w/o house arrest.

The black guy, who was at home the entire time, gets 25 years in jail.

I just don't see how people can look at this case and the sentencing and don't see a problem.

Until we get the cahones to identify wrong regardless of where we find it, we'll never get over the race issue. Pretty sad; as this sort of thing is much too common in our country.

Uhh, guys?
your sheets are showing.

It's not black against white.

It's about fighting ignorance. The anger of whites usually is from the more ignorant, the ones insecure about their own ablities to compete.

We all know that the whites that lined the streets screaming and hating during the sixties didn't just evaporate. They are some of you guys parents. They are ashamed to tell you but it had to be somebody.

Wasn't you? Didn't own slaves? You are cordiaaly invited to shut up. You are not being blamed or held responsible.

Methinks you doth protest too much.



Pretty soon mean, insecure white people like yourselves will age and your children will be better examples of Americans.

We can Change!

heavydoug
You are tiresome. Read "My Grandfather's Son" by Clarence Thomas. If you must continue whining after that, then God bless you.

Black folks are not the only ones who have had hard lives. Lots of us have. Read Star Parker's columns. There's an interesting woman.

I'm growing increasingly deaf to people like you. If you want to change the world, change yourself.

We've pretty much been through all this

with heavy a day or two ago on a different thread.

This is his excuse for everything.... "You have no idea what it must be like to be an 15 year insecure black kid, with no strong people paying attention."

Well, that is what Cosby has been trying to say... "get it together... take responsibility for yourself and your childrern..." And what has Cosby gotten for his trouble??? A good swift kick in the teeth.... from the black community!

Until such time the blacks decide they are GOING TO LEARN SOMETHING from those who have succeeded and take responsibility for themselves and their families, they are going to rely on excuses.

There are countless people.. black and white... who have had life deal terrible blows. It's those people who DECIDE that they are NOT GOING let those terrible blows define them or their lives who will succeed.

Those who do not, will have be stuck.



We have changed!!
It is your heaviness (must be all that blaming and shaming your carrying) that hasn't.

Whining?
How can pointing out problems and talking about solving them be whining?

Are you neanderthals?


Do you all share you big uni-brow?

The big dumb white club?


Who needs logic?

Sheesh.

Aaah, the big dumb white club approach!

That's the ticket!

Surely if I referred to the blacks as "the big dumb black club" I'd be considered a racist.

But not when a black refers to whites as "the big dumb white club."

CLEARLY there IS a double standard, but NOT the double standard that some blacks would want us to believe...






Idaho
What? You're from IDAHO!

You read a book about a black guy?

Well gosh, little missy.

What next? Cancer? Global warming? we're so lucky to have You on the case.

(No, don't worry no ones thinks you're shallow.)

Idaho
What? You're from IDAHO!

You read a book about a black guy?

Well gosh, little missy.

What next? Cancer? Global warming? we're so lucky to have You on the case.

(No, don't worry no ones thinks you're shallow.)

That's so "typical" doug
When a liberal gets an answer they can't deal with or that undermines their weak logic... they start ranting.

heavydoug... let's have a reasoned conversation, OK?

"So Impressed
by all these self made giants and social know- it- alls.

Everybody pulled themselves up by the old bootstraps. Ha ha."

I see. Only problems or obstacles experienced by blacks count to you, right? No white person could POSSIBLY have endured or have seen or have overcome anything meaningful.

FWIW, I never said I did it on my own. I didn't inherit wealth or privilege... but my family did pass on a heritage of godly morality and ethics. Rather than the selfishness you see today, my parents and their parents before them sacrificed to make a better future for us... and instilled that responsibility into us.

The most meaningful thing I was ever taught isn't a difficult concept doug... no matter how infected with victimitis you are: "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF, YOUR ACTIONS, AND THOSE AROUND YOU. YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO DO THE RIGHT THING NO MATTER THE COSTS."

"You have no idea what it must be like to be an 15 year insecure black kid, with no strong people paying attention."

Yes. I do. You don't think those things existed in southern Appalachia... in a county that routinely ranked amongst the highest unemployment rates in the country? Alcoholism and drug abuse was rampant.

"In a neighborhood where law enforcement refuses to get rid of drugs."

Oh give me a BREAK. When are you going to stop immoral and unlawful behavior on other people? I live in a small town now with a wide range of incomes and home situations. We don't have a full time police officer. People are self-governing and when they aren't their neighbors won't tolerate it. They report them so the law can be enforced. They don't sit around while thugs take over their community.


more doug...
"At 15 thats when the crap usually starts- are you going to tell me you going to go against all the peer pressure and magically pull hard work and an education out of your backside. This ain't the movies."

YES. I AM going to tell you that YOU and every 15 year old no matter what color his skin happens to be is responsible for his own moral behavior.

"To be a prison guard for any extended amount of time... chances are your friends have serious issues."

Really? How do you come to that? He had been married for about 20 years to the same woman. They lived in a nice middle class neighborhood where he restored cars as a pastime. Their daughters were upstanding and successful. He was a strong Christian that didn't harbor hate for anyone even though he'd grown up in the 60's and had fought in Vietnam. IOW's, he was more of a Huckstable than Cosby is.

"There are blacks that hate themselves and become law enforcement to prey on other blacks your buddy sounds like a canidate."

No. He was a black person who saw what lawlessness did when it infected communities. He wasn't hateful toward even the guys he thought should be locked up for good. He was just practical. He had seen over and over that liberal ideas of rehabilitation were a waste of time and money.

Funny how your hypothetical experience of some 15 year old black kid is meaningful but this man's REAL life experiences and observations are somehow a sign of self loathing.

And you mockingly suggested that others here were being ignorantly condescending?

heavydoug
Per your 2:22 P.M.post.You said the person was born on third base and thought he hit a triple. I've heard that one before. After reading several of your posts,it is impossible to change an attitude that sees white and 'sees red'.

You did not get to third base,because when it was your turn at bat,you were complaining.Your suit didn't fit.Your bat was too light.Your shoes were the wrong color.The manager didn't like you.You wanted to bat first.You struck out when it was your turn.You got good pitches,but were blinded by self pity.

You may have to go back down to the minors and get your head straight.Maybe when you get a chance in the majors again,you will take advantage of it and forget how you got where you are.Be thankful you got a second chance.After all ,it's all up to you.

Oh... heavydoug
Have you ever read Starr Parker's bio? She's living proof that if someone wants to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", they can do it.

Anne
That's a good point. I should be careful not to be racist myself.

It is just a coincedence you are 95-97% white.

And refuse to apply common sense to very basic issues concerning black people.

Apologies.

I must be blind not see the how hard it is to be white in America.

What is worse.. I block my mind and resort to name calling when you guys make a point.

I really feel I know everthing there is to know about being white, and all your problems. gee.. how very small.. of me.

Rowly
Don't you understand? Since whites unfairly got all the advantages and could not possibly have deserved the a triple... it is only fair that whites be moved back to 2nd base... and blacks advanced to home plate automatically. In fact, it is wrong to even ask them to suit up or attend the game... just send them the check and vote them into the Hall of Fame so their self-esteem is maintained.

I KNOW this isn't the attitude of most black people... but it sure seems to be doug's attitude.

"hard to be white?"
Life is hard for most people doug. Good grief you are delusional aren't you? You live in some dark fantasy where whites just have an easy ol' time and ride the backs of minorities.

I told you my background... now a little more of the rest of my story. When I graduated college and ROTC, the military had recently cut back on its officer quota. My grades in the top 20%. My evals were in the upper half. I requested an active duty slot. I personally knew blacks, women, and a white guy whose official photo looked hispanic who were slotted ahead of me.

It was disappointing. I could have become hateful or sat around and whined about how unfair the world was... instead, I got a job and started a good career.

I've been discriminated against and even fired because of my accent and open Christian witness... I have not used that as an excuse to laydown.

Life is hard on most people. It is a struggle. If you think a white life is some walk in the park then maybe the first person's racial ignorance you need to deal with is your OWN.

sjt18: I've been reading your posts....

Excellent commentary. Truly inspirational and impressive.

But, here's the thing....

Somehow, and I'd bet the farm (if I had one) that for every "white" success story, we could find a "black" success story. And, for every "black" success story, we could find a "white" success story....

Black and white is not the basic problem... it's individual choices and determination.

But, some people just do not want to take responsibility...

I call it the "Yeah but" syndrome




sjt18
Very good.I wonder why white folk cannot get signed to the NBA,NFL.,etc.?Think that might be racism? Somebody should start marching and protesting.


heavydoug
Heavydoug retorts: "Wasn't you? Didn't own slaves? You are cordiaaly invited to shut up. You are not being blamed or held responsible."

Oh, really Doug? Then why are you and Wright and a huge portion of black America preaching hatred for whitey in general, not just those who're descendants of slave owners? You're a collossal hypocrite Doug, and it is you who are cordially invited to shut TF up.

The problems in Blacksville has become your problem, because you're so full of self-pity and rage at the man - that would be "whitey" - that anything that we try to do to help is thrown back in our faces, to the point that I, at least, don't care or dare any more. I did once. Not any more. It just isn't worth the effort of fighting of the constant litany of guilt.

I have a very good friend who is black, Doug, but he's a REAL African American. He's an immigrant from Kenya, who, after hard work and gutting out the crap that I never had to go through, got his citizenship, his CPA license and he now runs the local, predominantly white, rugby team here in my city. He's doing better than most whites here. And like you he has endured his share of discrimination. Also, like you, he's never been a slave or has had no first-hand experience of slavery.

The difference between George and you, Doug, is that George sees the progress no matter how incrementally small it may seem to you, and can interact with whites and hispanics without rancor. He dresses like an adult instead of a clown and speaks English better than I do, instead of ebonics or ignorant street speech.

You want to keep gangs, illiteracy, illigitimacy, drugs, violence, crime and self-destructive behavior as part of the "black culture?" Fine, have at it, but don't blame anyone but yourselves.

For everyone trying to reason with...
For everyone trying to reason with heavydoug; you're wasting your bandwidth. He has no idea about anyone or anything other than wallowing in self-delusion and pity. It doesn't matter your personal story. It doesn't matter if you have a disease that is slowly destroying your kidneys, nerves, vision, heart... if your white, baby you got it made according to racistdoug. It doesn't matter if you've lived for 13 years in a black neighborhood, more affectionately known as the hood, if you're white. It doesn't matter that you have entire areas of your town that you have seen be destroyed once section 8 people move in if your white. It doesn't matter if the home you worked for years to get into loses it value due to the "ghetto-ization" if your white, according to racistdoug. You got it made baby! It doesn't matter that the hatred being spewed by racistdoug and many Americans of African descent has led to the genocide currently taking place in every major city in America. Heck, nobody seems to care not even racistdoug that over 30,000 men of "black" color have slaughtered one another in the same time we have been in Iraq the last 5 years. All he cares about is his abject hatred of all people white.

Reality Check
sjt18 said:

FWIW, I never said I did it on my own. I didn't inherit wealth or privilege... but my family did pass on a heritage of godly morality and ethics. Rather than the selfishness you see today, my parents and their parents before them sacrificed to make a better future for us... and instilled that responsibility into us.

The most meaningful thing I was ever taught isn't a difficult concept doug... no matter how infected with victimitis you are: "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF, YOUR ACTIONS, AND THOSE AROUND YOU. YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO DO THE RIGHT THING NO MATTER THE COSTS."



This is a common view most if not all of you have.

If you look you will see "taught" and "learned" ...

But you can't see your life if those people weren't there to teach you.

You are looking at the world through only your experiences.

You cannot use tools you don't have. These things, working hard, reading, the importance of family, these are are cultural qualities that are learned.

And most of you are more fortunate than you know or care to give credit.

Previously I said:

The only difference between Mike Tyson and Michael Jordan is Mr. and Mrs. Jordan.

Does that not register with anyone? His the "Dumb" comment. What are you not getting?

The black community is sorely lacking functional family units.

That is a fact.

There is also social and historical reasons that account on this lack of families.

That is also a fact.

For goodness sakes, if someone else says but this person made it or that person made it. It will be proof positive that person is dumb. (refer to the Tyson/Jordan analogy above).


Am I talking with children unable or afraid to admit the obvious.

Once we do we can start fixing things, getting rid of welfare and crowded prisons.

Can you dig it?

Anne
I don't disagree in principle though it doesn't seem that statistics support black success stories being as numerous or statistically likely as white success stories.

If you are specifically talking about those who climbed out of poverty, I could agree with that.

I don't think it has everything to do with skin color either. The basic problem is spiritual. It isn't education. It isn't crime per se. It isn't advantage or starting point in life or any of a number of other things. It is spiritual and moral above all else.

Poor people with strong morality and ethics seldom stay poor in America. They don't have children out of wedlock. They take marriage seriously. They are grateful and good stewards over their blessings. They do the right thing simply because it is right. They are willing to work hard. They don't make excuses and are thankful for every opportunity.

VALUES are a more critical element to success than anything else. Where values break down, you will see societal decay... and skin color makes no difference in that.

sjt18
So you have had challenges. That I don't doubt.

Well, suppose you came to me and told me of obstacles and problems you or your community faced and I said "stop whining".

I would be an insensative jerk.(posters take note)Cause I'm hear that a lot.


Fortunately, I'm not like most of you. I respect people experiences and I listen because I realize there is a lot to learn.

But everybody here knows everything already.




Some mornings it's not worth chewing through the leather restraints.

You better learn more history than 140..
You better learn more history than 140 years ago.

OMG, OMG...I can't believe racistdoug even acknowledges a real fact, whe he said:

"The black community is sorely lacking functional family units.

That is a fact."

And is it the evil whitey that's making all these black women pregnant without marriage????

If not, you best start looking inward to the community at large. The history of slavery did not start the destruction of the black family. If you had any knowledge of history or cared to other than hate and blame the devil whitey...you might actually learn something.

Doug
"Be responsible for yourself" and "don't break the law" aren't difficult concepts. You hardly even need any training or influence to "get that". There's one thing though that you specifically don't need... something that will destroy that innate seed of conscience that could save that 15 year old's life.... YOU DON'T NEED AN EXCUSE OR SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME.

Don't tell me that people raised hard can't climb out of it... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm related to people who have done it.

Do you know what a living without responsibility looks like? Visit an Indian Reservation. I grew up a few miles from one. Every problem America is experiencing right now concerning its entitlement class could have been predicted 40 years ago by visiting a Reservation.

You can't give people a free living without responsibility... it will destroy them every time- rich, poor, all points in between.

Further, let's say that you are right and black kids aren't getting that training and guidance... How is that conservative white America's fault? Before liberal social programs, before the CRA, before Affirmative Action, before bussing, before all the "remedies" at the expense of white people both in dollars and liberty.... black illegitimacy was about half what it is now. The general economic progression of blacks was better than now in spite of institutional discrimination. Blacks were starting and succeeding in business. Crime generally was less and specifically it was less amongst blacks.

As bad as things were when real, hardcore racism was the rule... blacks were making better progress as a whole then.

Why doug? Why is it the more tolerant whites become and the more that has been done to help blacks up... the worse things get and the more folks like you blame whites for it?

Heavydoug
Doug: "The black community is sorely lacking functional family units. That is a fact."

Gee, Doug has a firm grasp of the obvious.

Now, Doug, who has control of, or is responsible for, that? Whitey? I hardly think so. I don't , nor any other whites I know, run around knocking up black women and bolting out the door. (Lord knows we have enough of those A-holes in whiteyville.)

How about you clean up your own house before complaining about the Mary-in-a-bathtub, or the pink flamingos on your neighbors front lawn.

doug said:
"The black community is sorely lacking functional family units."

This is an absolutely true statement.

Now the important part. Who is responsible for creating this situation and who is responsible for fixing it?

How you answer determines whether there is any hope the solutions you suggest will ever be effective.

The second you crack the door to blaming whitey, momma, daddy, the crack dealer, or whoever else... you lose.

heavydoug
heavydoug says:
"Some blacks have predudice against other blacks. Some Italian gangs fought Irish gangs. We can throw in a few hispanics.. and we got a big ball of confusion. Womens rights,gays, reverse racism, it may never end but not to try is a waste of time."

Exactly, man. So who's not trying? The answer is that a certain percentage of all the above categories simply do not want to get along.

I think someone said that life isn't fair. You may actually have to try harder than most people because you're black. Why. Because you stand out. People don't look at me and say "there's one of those crazy Irish guys." After they get to know me is when they do that. ;-)

You talk as though you want to get along, but then you trash "little missy" from Idaho and numerous others on this site.

I got it. The next time you meet one of those obnoxious white people that single you out at the grocery store to say "Nice day, huh?", or go out of their way to invite you to their barbecue, just smile and go along with the ruse, even though you know they really hate you.






Nope
"Well, suppose you came to me and told me of obstacles and problems you or your community faced and I said "stop whining".

I would be an insensative jerk.(posters take note)Cause I'm hear that a lot."

No. That would make you my friend- Proverbs 27:5... or else my mom... or any of a number of other very positive influences on my life and values.

Not everyone who tells you what you want to hear is your friend... and not everyone willing to tell you a hard truth is your enemy.

A private hell
We can't get our act together as a nation after more than 100 years after our own civil war and we expect the Sunnis and Shias to magically get along. Go figure !

We can begin to have racial peace when the Reverend Wright's of this world actually live the words of Jesus instead of calling down damnation on others.

But if he started speaking about boring stuff like love thy neighbor the church would not fill up. I guess it still comes down to money.

What I find absolutely amazing and inspiring are the stories about parents and single parent households that struggle and succeed in giving their children a better life and hold their family together when so many things seem against them. You rarely hear this in the media, it doesn't sell.

So for those of you that want to have a chip on your shoulder about what my ancestors did in spite of the fact that they are long since dead and neither one of us were around at the time, I say enjoy your misery. You have worked hard to be miserable and deserve what you get. Enjoy the private hell you have created.

Tibby

doug
All this stuff we've been discussing is why I am a conservative leaning strongly libertarian (small "L").

I'll leave you alone. You leave me alone. We cooperate when and where we want to. We tolerate each other in coexistence when we don't want to cooperate... I respect your God given rights and liberties and you respect mine.

The problem is that liberals won't allow that. They attempt to use gov't to impose their ideal of the way things ought to be on every one else... and it only causes more problems while enslaving us in the process. You can't right every injustice... no one can... and worse yet, everyone thinks they've got a beef that's at least as bad as the next guy.

Let's live and let live. Let's stop thinking it is our calling in life to impose our ideal society on people who don't want it. Let's stop expecting someone else to pick up the tab for our bad choices.

OK?

HEAVYDOG

.....WAZZZUP DOG??? ...

.....WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A YEAR OFF AND FIND OUT HOW TOUGH IT IS TO BE A BLACK IN AFRICA ...

.....EVEN ALI, AFTER A TOUR OF AFRICA, SAID THANK GOD MY ANCESTORS GOT ON THAT BOAT .....COLOSSUS

heavydoug
**Idaho
What? You're from IDAHO!

You read a book about a black guy?

Well gosh, little missy.

What next? Cancer? Global warming? we're so lucky to have You on the case.

(No, don't worry no ones thinks you're shallow.)**

Wow, where did that come from? Kinda stereotyping there, aren't you bud? I actually live in California, was born in Australia, lived in the Midwest until I was eight when we came to California. I'm in Idaho for the winter but am going back to CA. And I'll tell you this much about Idaho. I haven't met a nicer bunch of people ever. Why, there are even some black people here and you know what? They get along just fine. It's hard for everyone in Idaho. So they take care of each other.

I'm not going to bore you with my story. Suffice it to say my life hasn't been easy. But I've made my way, raised two girls and then started over with my brother's kids who otherwise would have ended up in foster care. I fought the system for 5 years before I got guardianship of them. They are both graduating from college this year. And I did it by working hard instead of complaining. And owning up to my own mistakes and fixing them.

You're really pathetic.

problem is
He is heavy, but he's our brother. I just think all this carry'n has led us all down the road to hell. so long.

It's been real, It's been fun. But it ain't been real fun.

Common sense people
Let's use some shall we?

Imagine black people's life before slavery as a highway. If there is an accident(slavery) on a highway, there will be a traffic jam. Following?

After you clear the accident off the road, does traffic just start humming along again?

No. It takes time to get back full speed. Even hours (for our analogy decades) before that slow down is gone.

You all make the mistake of selling you parents (ancestors)short. Their imput cannot be measured.

You also show no... Compassion to those given much less in this...sacred area.

You all also underestimate decades of a concerted effort by this society telling a certain group they are less than everyone else.

I am not saying you can't make it if you try (blah, blah) and Oprah and on and on.

I am asking you to look at our country as a scientist, a historian. And look at the situation.

I not blaming- I am not angry-- Just think.

On some levels black show the genius of our people. but on others we are hurt, damaged if you will. And we are trying to climb up.

Most people who have faced challenges understand easy it is to fail.

But all of this cold-ness is very sobering for me.

I know that hardness is not a racial thing because I have friend of all colors. The white people (or any other) around here don't seem to have that trait.

Is that conservatism?

WE GET IT! WE REALLY, REALLY GET IT!

Now move on!

Big problem.. some young black children... just as some young white children, do NOT have positive role models...


SO FIX IT! Join up with Cosby and Justice Thomas, and even Juan Williams ("Enough") and and stop whining and complaining and work on fixing it..





heavydoug
The cars move forward.They don't sit still,nor do they back up.Some may sit and wait for someone to come take them out and some will get up and leave by themselves.But they don't just sit there crying because a wreck happened.

Truth


just echoes...

Ol' heavy is stuck where he is!

There is no moving on... No moving forward.. Just happy with being a victim!!!

Enough said! We're tired of hearing the whining and complaining... So please don't!!!!

(Or IF you must, please do so somewhere else, to someone who cares.)






heavydoug
heavydoug says:
"I know that hardness is not a racial thing because I have friend of all colors. The white people (or any other) around here don't seem to have that trait. Is that conservatism?"

It's not entirely clear what you're trying to say when you refer to "around here", but if you mean that the conservatives on this site do not have "friend of all colors", I don't know how you would ever know that.

Is it because no one has said "some of my best friends are black"? What good would that do? It's an old cliche, and one that you would reject in an instant.

For what it's worth, one of my best (black) friends, Joe, who I grew up with and played music with, died several years back from diabetes. I think about him all the time. His son, Wesley, died a couple years before him of the same thing. I went to both of their funerals. A few high school acquaintances spoke to me but, for the most part, I was the man from Mars.

Why is it that we keep hearing about how we all need to reach out to each other, but when it comes down to it, the white guy is often the only one trying?

Doug - please read

I'm going to break my rule for the second time of not getting involved in a chatroom....no time. But I got caught up in reading this running conversation while parked here eating a meal. I've read of people here who care about you and some who don't.

I am basically unaware of what you believe or don't believe. But I hope my postings at Kevin McCullough's latest column will be of some comfort to you. It can be difficult to catch flak from everyone, whether deserved or undeserved.

Do a search for "dsslm" and you should find 11 postings and an "oops" posting. Once I got started building a response to questions, it was difficult to stop.

http://townhall.com/columnists/Column2.aspx?UrlTitle=typica l&ns=CalThomas&dt=03/25/2008&page=full&comments=true&submit ted=trueb468ad30-585f-407d-9dd0-a77863bcbd13

When the tough get going
the going... or how does that go?


If you can tell by my writing I do have some experience people.

Myself, I will not even elaborate more than to say I have been blessed in life to learn there are more than two sides to a story.

But I do not make it a practice to look down on those less fortunate then me.

When I see a homeless person I don't say look at that "lazy man." Or 'what a crackhead." Or "look at that hooker she's gross."

No. Because I know most prostitutes were raped as children. And their viscious system requires drugs(which cost money) to self medicate their pain. You see, I realize not everyone can afford counseling. But they have real, deep.. hurt.

Don't get me wrong I don't go around saving people or doing as much as I probably should.

But I sure as heck ain't gonna sit on the sidelines talking someone down... especially when I don't know the whole story.

Sometimes people are trying even when it doesn't look like it.

It must be nice to be perfect.


When the tough get going
the going... or how does that go?


If you can tell by my writing I do have some experience people.

Myself, I will not even elaborate more than to say I have been blessed in life to learn there are more than two sides to a story.

But I do not make it a practice to look down on those less fortunate then me.

When I see a homeless person I don't say look at that "lazy man." Or 'what a crackhead." Or "look at that hooker she's gross."

No. Because I know most prostitutes were raped as children. And their viscious system requires drugs(which cost money) to self medicate their pain. You see, I realize not everyone can afford counseling. But they have real, deep.. hurt.

Don't get me wrong I don't go around saving people or doing as much as I probably should.

But I sure as heck ain't gonna sit on the sidelines talking someone down... especially when I don't know the whole story.

Sometimes people are trying even when it doesn't look like it.

It must be nice to be perfect.


heavydoug
**When I see a homeless person I don't say look at that "lazy man." Or 'what a crackhead." Or "look at that hooker she's gross."**

The breathtaking arrogance of that post. How in the heck do you know what any of us think when we see those kinds of people? Because we have different solutions to problems doesn't mean we don't care.

Grow up. You're not the only person on the planet with an opinion. Read Marvin Olansky's "The Tragedy of American Compassion" for a look at how some of us see the problem.

It's the leftists who have driven faith-based solutions from helping with the problem. I dealt with the Social Services system for years. It is the most degrading thing I've ever seen. Compare that to the Salvation Army who never asks how many TVs you have if you show up for a meal. They just figure that if you need a meal for whatever reason, they'll supply it and whatever else it was that drove you to the soup kitchen. Sometimes it's just needing companionship but no one has to explain why they're there. But leftists want the government to take care of those people - that way they won't be exposed to (shudder) GOD! That way they won't be required to follow some simple rules if they want shelter. Can't expect anyone to follow rules, you know. Got to keep them stupid and needy so the government employees will have a job. And the politicians will have a reason to be.

Just another "typical" white person

Ashamed
Is what you should be for any attempting some "get over it.It's in the past" nonsense!

No slack given to anyone who can't acknowledge the obviously dominating effect of a two-parent family on the development of any child.

NITTY GRITTY

Oh yeah, right between the eyes.


I just talked to my Mom and told her about our little conversation here.

How's this for a dose of reality:

She said "oh they wouldn't know how they used to rape them... little baby girls too."

Ahh, you say "just walk it off. You say it was a long time ago.

Rub some dirt on it. Victim."

Let me enlighten you.

Those little girls kept getting raped their whole lives... had children they maybe didn't want(it was from a rape, might have tried to love the kid, but it was rape)maybe they weren't an any condition to take care of a kid emotionally.

Well those children frankly, weren't loved properly. Because of that, they had their own kids too young, thus the cycle.

(but it wasn't me! I didn't do it!)

Idiotic response people.

Or the Virginia Tech response: "they shoulda jumped him, like Rambo".

I had problems too. Sheesh. Shut it.

It still remains..The Problem.

Heavydoug's Fatal Flaw
And it's not his incessant whining. It's his use of sarcasm--it's a window into his psyche. A lot of hostility.

But don't blame me--my ancestors weren't even in this country during slavery. Blame the Arab slave traders and their African tribal collaborators.

You don't seem to understand that you MUST move on and look forward or you will always be disgruntled and bitter.

kapahulu
I have serious doubts about you.

For the last time, dude.

No one is blaming you.(see I'm holding your widdle hand now).

I am a saying as plainly as I can make it for you.

There are... Reasons! things are the way they are, we as supposedly intelligent people should be able to look, talk, about these things.

So, that when we do look to the Future,... we can make better decisions. Together as a country. OK?

Now if you can't understand that simple, elementary explaination, you have my condolences.

This is a super simple concept.


This country needs a better education system. Quick!

heavydoug - you gotta drive the train
I apologize for getting angry. I try not to react like a liberal!

I leave you with this:

http://www.mamarocks.com/train_of_life.htm

Get out of the caboose and drive the train!



Republican? Democrat?
Cal says: "20th-century Democratic politicians discriminated against them, defiantly standing in schoolhouse doors, blocking their way to a better future."
Now Cal, you know perfectly well that when the Democratic party (led by a Texan) passed the Civil Rights legislation, those "Democrats" went to the party that agreed with their views, the Republican party.
You are such a stitch.

Democrats
Those wonderful Democrats.Don'cha just love 'em?
Apologists are so pitiful.Just cannot face the fact that the Civil Rights legistration was fought tooth and nail by the afore-mentioned Democrats.Sure,some of them may have joined the Republican party out of revulsion for the way their Democrat party treated blacks.

Face it,Democrats are hypocrits.Have always been and still are.That is one of the better names I can think of.Today ,they are left-wing liberals,bordering on fascists.If they win the election in the fall,it will be just a matter of time before we will have a full-blown fascist government.

Heavydoug.
Doug laments, "This country needs a better education system. Quick!"

Your patronization is duly noted.

To you I say, blacks aren't taking advantage of the one we have? What makes you think they'd participate in a better one?

bobc
No, they do not.

But if you have been listening, I have been saying there Is a reason, for that.

It is because their parents are not able to, or aware of, the importance of enforcing and supporting the education of these kids.

Some black families have experieced less trauma than others, their children do just fine. Some are healing and succeeding literally before our eyes.(you guys have named many yourselves)

But it's a human process. It takes time and sometimes tremendous effort to first recognize, then confront things that are hindering success.

That's why I remarked at the coldness, it sounds to me like people who think this is "just get yourself together issue" or "I did it, or can too."

You have never done anything of the sort.

You have no clue about the violence, sexual abuse, and the depression the permeates black community.

They are like presents, evil gifts,
given by the Original deadbeat dads... slaveowners and truly sadistic racists.

Keep in mind historically, in Africa people walk around mostly unclothed. There was no pornography, homosexuality and pedophilia were extremely rare. Alchohol and drug abuse are signs of depression Bobc, (not partying.)

Now these are more just more hurdles our young ones have to leap...

As well as school. Without effective parents.


Please read my post from yesterday at 6:07 pm.

heavydoug
Who is the "they" who raped little girls? Are you saying that the source of all that ails the black community is some anonomous "they"?

As far as education is concerned, America once had a very good system that not only educated but instilled values... it was virtually all private- run and controlled by churches and communities. Then local and state gov't got involved in the funding to ensure availability... but the curriculum and operation changed very little. Still alot of Christian influence. Then it began to be more nationalized. Unions got involved. A notion of academic elitism founded on humanism/naturalism rather than judeo-christian thought took over.

Now... we have a mess. Children get facts without a sound set of values and we wonder why lawlessness and immorality prevail.

If you want to "fix" the education system and in particular for disadvantaged children who need that value set you've talked about through this set... work to privatize education with NO gov't strings attached except for the passing of basic academic testing.

Suggestion for you or anyone else who is available.... Start a missions ministry to provide scholarships to conservative Christian schools for disadvantaged children. That's right, send that young black boy growing up without the right influences to a conservative Baptist school BEFORE he's 15. He'll get educated. He'll get the gospel. He'll be taught a solid value set.

How long...
"They are like presents, evil gifts,
given by the Original deadbeat dads... slaveowners and truly sadistic racists."

How long are you going to ride these lame excuses? Black people can't figure out that it is difficult to get a job without an education? They can't pass that info to their children?

The biggest reason that might be true is that they've been provided a living by the system so that they don't truly understand the costs of their own bad decisions and lack of an education. Anything you subsidize, you get more of... liberals have been subsidizing the root causes of the problems you lament for over 40 years now. Are you truly surprised that the problems persist and grow worse?

Again, considering where we are and where you and I agree we have to go... one of the few ways to get there is to get those kids into very conservative Christian schools...

I could point to several schools run by churches in the Chicago area that might be good subjects for it. The only thing is that some of the ministers and faculty *gasp* came from Bob Jones University... You know those folks who are supposed to be hate mongers but have sent missionaries to minister and even die into all parts of the world to include Africa?


Anecdote:
I belonged to a church near Chicago pastored by a BJU grad. In spite of having several "black" churches in the area, the church was close to 10% black. There were also some hispanic and asian families in the mix. It was OUR church... I never saw racial cliques... and don't think the pastor would have tolerated it. The people loved and supported each other.

My wife and I are from the Carolinas. Our closest friends at church were a black couple from Tn. We didn't share skin color but we did share more culturally than we did with others in the church. We spent holidays together, played sports together, visited, kept each others children.... we loved each other. So much for the delusion that liberal ideals bring peace and harmony while conservative ideals bring dissention.

sjt18
The answers as to who did these things are available.

But I'll warn you... if you start learning about these things you very well may become an outspoken advocate for reparations.

I went to the black holocaust museum in Milwaukee.

Room after room, of blacks swinging from trees, lawless rabid mobs displaying grisly trophys. Chains and punishment devices. Accounts of young girls and boys taken from their parents, stripped naked in front of strangers and sold. Uncountable whippings and beatings... and the work. The heat of the deep south and all that cotton.

And it happened enough to fill huge rooms with volumes of books.

I cried when left that place.

140 years ago(for slavery, another 100 years of Jim Crow)this was happening. Now I said before my uncle recently died and he was 98.

How long ago was it?


Do you really think the past doesn't effect the future?

Some people "there was slavery in africa, africans sold their own".

Two points, first, slavery was different in Africa; it wasn't driven by capitalism so people weren't beating the crap out of each other, and your family was still close.
Second, it doesn't matter who sold you something you know is not yours to buy. There is a law, (since blacks were regarded merely as property)called receiving stolen property.

heavydoug
I'm not opposed to reparations if it would settle the issue once and for all. If modern blacks would stop excusing themselves... it would be worth it in my mind to give them whatever the modern equivalent of "40 acres and a mule" is.

My suspicion though is that it would just encourage the likes of Obama, Jackson, Sharpton, et al to demand more.

FTR, slavery in Africa WAS economic. It was and still is abusive to include the rapes of young children.


Yes. It matters to the person selling the property. They are just as morally and legally culpable as the one buying the property. Why are you always trying to excuse blacks of their responsibility?

Concerning the cruelty
of slavery. Yes. It existed. If even one slaveowner did it... that's too many. But even honest black historians know that extreme physical cruelty wasn't the rule. Many if not most slaveowners were benevolent. They didn't consider blacks their equals but they did care for them much the way royalty cared for the masses in Europe.

Now, once again, how long will the deeds of white people be used as an excuse for the moral and ethical failings of black people today?

Are you still suggesting that whites should somehow "fix" everything for blacks like they did during slave times? One part of being a slave was that the master had to provide for you... Are you still looking for a slavemaster to take responsibility because you can't handle freedom with personal responsibility attached to it?

sjt18
You said:
Now, once again, how long will the deeds of white people be used as an excuse for the moral and ethical failings of black people today?


Once again I will say "there is a Difference between excuses, and reasons... why things are the way they are.

Have you ever heard the phrase "cause and effect"?

I really wish you guys wouls stop being defensive, no one wants to blame you or take anything from you.



To your last question:

No. I think parents are the best way young people have to learn responsibilty.


I would like to more about whites "burden".


Because I knew no clue whatsoever how whites "fixed" things for slaves, could you elaborate?



sjt18
You said:
Now, once again, how long will the deeds of white people be used as an excuse for the moral and ethical failings of black people today?


Once again I will say "there is a Difference between excuses, and reasons... why things are the way they are.

Have you ever heard the phrase "cause and effect"?

I really wish you guys wouls stop being defensive, no one wants to blame you or take anything from you.



To your last question:

No. I think parents are the best way young people have to learn responsibilty.


I would like to more about whites "burden".


Because I knew no clue whatsoever how whites "fixed" things for slaves, could you elaborate?



heavydoug
Please don't tell me that you've visited museums et al and don't know the fundamental definition of a slave. A slave is one whose labor as a resource belongs to another and who is neither free to act as he chooses nor responsible for himself.

The masters provided shelter, food, clothing, etc. For the majority of the slave period, they provided education and training. Many provided means by which the slave could buy their slavery though the institution became more restrictive in the early 1800's due to noise of violent abolitionists and incitement of slave violence against whites.

Yes
I know cause and effect. I do not see a cause and effect relationship between a beating a slave took in 1800 with the individual moral choices being made by blacks today. Sorry. That is an excuse... not a reason.

Jim Crow isn't even a reason. Those laws closed doors to blacks that have now swung wide open... there is no cause and effect there.

FWIW, there are multiple "causes" to get a desirable effect. If one "cause" doesn't work or produces an undesired outcome... try something else like everyone else does.

sjt18: Believe me, it's a waste of time,

energy, and intellect.

heavy just goes in circles....



sjt18
Sorry to tell you the truth, but your benevolent slave master crap is a joke. Not even you can take junk like that isn't taken seriously.


Trying to minimize a systematic terrorization and degradation of a people that lasted over generations (and just ended when I was a boy) to a beating in 1800 hundred is Very weak.


Try this:




Just ignore segragrated bathrooms, getting called boy, etc. Ignore the justice system locking you up and mocking your calls for justice. Couldn't vote, we'll forget that. Forget all the oppurtunities denied, and other lowdown-gutbucket things that have been done to blacks. The lynchings and violence, The super-fly movies, the crack, the malt liquor. Forget the mental illness and the depression.


Forget all the Logic, my explanations of the break-downs in the family structure.


It must be HeavyDoug,I'm out of my tree. I'm goin' in circles.



One request.


Stop whining. Shut up and give the people time.



Who are you supposed to be? like You know someone else's problems and when and how they should solve them.

Give me a break.


You have nothing to complain about. This is a problem you say are not responsible for. And no little about.



You obviously cannot grasp the simple logical explanations I have put forth. And have nothing positive to add.


All you do is whine about welfare, tell you what? You worry about getting white people off welfare, there are way more than plenty.

You worry about the ignorant white teenagers high on meth, shooting up the high school.


Lastly, I will say don't worry about black people. We are going to be fine, in our own time.


Sorry to be such a burden.


Oh, and in case you didn't notice, a black man is about to be President of the United States of America.

And he will be one of the best presidents this country has ever had.

Now, put that egg in your boot... and beat it.
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