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Tuesday, October 09, 2007
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Same God?
by Cal Thomas
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Whatever else his critics say of him, no one can fault President Bush for failing to go the extra mile in his efforts to show that neither he, nor the United States, is opposed to the Islamic faith, or to Muslim nations.

Last week, the president and Mrs. Bush hosted their seventh Iftaar Dinner, the celebration that breaks the Muslim fast during Ramadan. Immediately after 9/11, the president visited a Washington, D.C., mosque and proclaimed Islam a "religion of peace." He has frequently said that terrorists are not real Muslims, anymore than people who proclaim to be Christian and engage in violence are genuine Christians.

The president is the most openly evangelical Christian and faithful churchgoer since Jimmy Carter. And the evangelical community has mostly embraced him and twice voted for him in overwhelming numbers. But that constituency is likely to be troubled over something the president said in an interview with Al Arabiya television. In an official transcript released by the White House, the president said, "ŠI believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God." Later in the interview, the president repeated his statement: "I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality."

To paraphrase a remark often attributed to the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, everyone is entitled to his or her own faith, but everyone is not entitled to define the central doctrines of that faith. The doctrines of what is called Christianity not only stand in stark contrast to Islam, they also teach something contrary to what the president says he believes.

It is one thing to try to reach out to moderate and sincerely peaceful Muslims. It is quite another to say the claims of your own faith are of no greater importance than the often contradictory claims of another faith. If we all worship the same God, the president should answer the call of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden, convert to Islam and no longer be a target of their wrath. What difference would it make if we all worship the same God?

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (carm.org) has created a useful chart that shows the conflicting claims of classic Christian belief and Muslim doctrines. It is worth studying whatever one's faith.

The central doctrine of the Christian faith is that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for sinners and by repenting of sin and accepting Christ as Savior, one is "saved" and is guaranteed a home in Heaven. Muslims do not believe God had a son and, therefore, no atonement for sin is necessary. Muslims believe simply telling God one is sorry and repenting of sin is enough, if one also lives up to the five "pillars" of Islam. Furthermore, according to Muslims, Jesus did not die on a cross (as Christians believe); instead, God allowed Judas to look like Jesus and it was Judas who was crucified.

Evangelical Christians believe the Bible is God's Word and is without error in the original manuscripts. Muslims respect the word of the prophets, but claim the Bible has been corrupted (mostly by Jews) and is only correct insofar as it agrees with the Koran.

God calls himself "I Am" and says He is one, but with three personalities. Muslims believe God's name is Allah and reject the Trinity.

How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus, whom the president accepts as the One through whom all must pass for salvation? Do both political parties have the same beliefs? Are all baseball teams equal (clearly not, because only two will go to the World Series)?

The president can be commended for sincerely reaching out to Muslims, but he should not be commended for watering down his beliefs and the doctrines of his professed faith in order to do so. That's universalism. There are "churches" that believe in universalism, his Methodist church does not. No Christian who believes the Bible believes in universalism. And No Muslim who believes the Koran does either.

President Bush is wrong - dangerously wrong - in proclaiming that all religions worship the same God.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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You're right, Cal,
and neither are the gods of Mormonism the same as the Christian God.

Bush a Christian?
I seriously wonder if Bush is a Christian. How can he say such things? HOw can he be working for the destruction of our country (North American Union) and lying about it? The "new world order" is father talked about and the philosophy behind the NAU is one world gov.

Maybe Bush's is a prop bible like Clinton? The day we have one world gov, the anti-Christ will be coming on the scene. Why is a "christian" president carrying water for the anti-christ?

Islam is a religion of peace? Kill the infidel where you find him...

I voted for Bush twice. Now I think he is a moron and a traitor.


There is no crime....
There is no crime Muslims have committed that has not also been done by Christians and Jews in their long and often sordid histories.

Beheadings? The paltry few beheaded by Muslims in modern times pale to insignificance in comparison with the mass beheadings perpetrated by King Richard (the supposed "Lionheart"), who oversaw the mass beheading of five thousand Muslims in a single day.

Initiating a war of aggression against a nation that has issued no threats and has no capability of attack? Bush the Christian has few peers in this area.

Mass murder of innocent civilians? Read the Book of Samuel (as well as Kings and Chronicles)to hear example after example of "God's People" conquering local tribes, exterminating the entire population (including women, children, and even farm animals), and claiming the land as their own. All with the blessings of God's "prophet."

I have had many heart-to-heart discussions with Muslims in America. None of them made the slightest effort to "convert" me. All of them were sincerely interested in other systems of belief, and respectful of other religions.

As Churchill said, "jaw jaw" beats "war war" every time. If you want to build a bridge of understanding to the Muslim world, try talking to them, rather than killing them by the hundreds of thousands.


Suppose
Suppose that there were different groups of isolated people somewhere on earth.
All these groups believe that there is a United States of America headed by a president.
Some of these groups believe that the president is a king, others that he is a dictator, others that he is a magical being. These groups believe in the same president, even though they disagree about some significant issues regarding the president. So it seems to me that it is not illogical to say that some groups believe in the same God, even though there are significant differences in what they say.

Fundamentalists, not Evangelicals
"Evangelical Christians believe the Bible is God's Word and is without error in the original manuscripts."
This is a belief of fundamentalists, not of evangelicals generally.

Every Unfortunate
I'm sorry that the president has found it necessary to compromise.

Such a shame.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Perhaps we pray to the same God, but I'm not sure we all listen to the same God. A God who advises the believers to stone a rape victim to death probably is not talking to me. A God who offers 72 virgins to a believer who blows up women and children speaks not to me. A God who sanctions honor killing a daughter for slipping her veil probably is not speaking a language that I can ever learn.

The stress of the office seems to have been too much for our President. I will pray for him to the God I believe in.



One True God
In my life I have witnessed or heard reported the sincere prayers of Catholics, Evangelicals, Jews, and Mormons being answered. I believe the sincere prayer of a Muslim would also be answered by our loving God if it is a righteous desire. As M_from_Idaho said, though our understanding and worship of God may differ or even be of an incorrect form, it does not change the fact that there is only "one God and Father of all" (Eph 4:6).

finally
the Goddies admit there are multi-gods.

The god-idea is the most "liberal" idea of all-time.

Idaho
You don't get to define the terms, as Moynihan said.

Evangelicals believe in the fundamentals of Christianity -- the foundational beliefs that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that if we repent and believe He can save us, we are saved. Inherent in that belief is that the Bible is God's Word and without error in the original manuscripts. If you don't believe that, you can't be a Christian because the Bible is what defines Christianity. Christianity is what defines evangelicals. Those are fundamental doctrines. The term "fundamentalist" simply means to believe in foundational doctrines. It does not, despite what the news media would have you believe, mean "extremist". Evangelicals cannot be evangelicals without believing in fundamental doctrines. I don't know who you are associating with who told you that evangelicals generally do not accept the Bible as without error, but they clearly were not evangelicals. I'm a Southern Baptist who worships with members of several evangelical denominations and all evangelicals I know believe that Bible is inerrant. There are several posters here at TH who are evangelicals and they'll tell you the same thing as I just did.

Wonder if the President
Has come to believe when The Apostle Paul preached Jesus Christ to the Gentiles of the 1st Century, Paul was wrong and really meant the pagans gods were all one God?

He is nutty as a fruit cake if he really believes this nonsense.

1Co 12:2 -
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

2Co 6:16 -
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

How about the Hindu gods of snakes, monkeys, cows?
Is the President saying these are all the same God?

If so, he is nuts

There is only one G-d
Bush was correct in his statement, Jews believe in the Old Testament. This is one G-d that created the world and was rediscovered by Abraham. That is whom they pray to. Christians believe in the same (or very similar interpretation) of the Old Testament with the addition of the New Testament. The underlying Deity is the same but of course Christianity recognizes Jesus as an addition to the original manuscript of the Old Testament. Moslems also believe in the same G-d of the Old Testament with the addition of the Koran. Again the underlying Supreme Being is the same. Mormons believe in the same G-d. It is in what that G-d teaches us that we differ in opinion.
And the Old Testament has some pretty harsh penalties such as stoning to death for homosexuality, and taking your son to the town elders to be stoned to death if he doesn’t behave and can’t be controlled. So Moslems are not alone in their capital punishment beliefs.

Christians vs Muslims
Paolo has some real errors. Those who proclaim themselves Christians or Jews and follow the teachings of their faith are not guilty of the "sordid histories." Those who proclaim to be Muslims and DON'T have "sordid histories" are NOT following their faith. That's the difference. (President Bush does NOT REPRESENT the Christian faith, by the way.)
As for Israel in the O.T. and their wars; God led them in the extermination of idol worshippers to cleanse the land for Israel to be established as the nation that would bring the knowledge of the true God to the rest of the nations.

If you would read just a wee bit of history of the Muslims, you would see that theirs is a history of violence from the very start. Mohammed was a terrorist from the beginning and Islam has always been spread by the sword. True Christians NEVER use violence to spread the faith.

Cactus Mormon says God hears the prayers of all faiths. Yes He does, if they are sincerely seeking him. He heard me when I was a Mormon seeking Him and He led me to Himself, the true God of the Christian faith. But your quoting Eph.4:6 is out of context. The statement is about Christians, not people in general. The only people who can call God their father are Christians, while He is still the true God of all, even if they don't know who God is.

God, god, gods
"How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus...?"

How can you then say that you all worship the same God when Jews deny the divinity of Jesus?

Thus three Holy Scriptures, Hebrew, Christian and Muslim, sundering all dependencies of the latter two on the first.

Like Socrates said to his accusers, I don't think anyone knows God.


When God judges a nation
the first thing He does is confuse the leaders.

Paolo
Actually secular governments have committed far more atrocities than any religion. In the last century alone the count went into the tens of millions.
Go to any Christian church it does not matter the denomination, Catholic, Orthodox, Assyrian, Luthern, Baptist the list goes on. You will not see them standing outside with pitch forks and torches yelling kill the unbeliever. You will find Christians usually down at the homeless shelter feeding the poor and donating clothes to the needy. Sometimes they spend their time as missionaries in some third world country building schools. The fact is that Christians are the most charitable people on the planet. The teachings of Jesus Christ are still the same now as they have always been and those teachings yield the same results even in a divided Church.
Thanks be to God.

allah is NOT G_d
A cursory reading of the beginnings of Islam will make clear to any thinking individual that the god of islam, allah, is the ancient pagan moon god. Muslims do NOT pray to the same G-d as Christians and Jews.

Try reading Robert Spencer, Bat Y'eor, Oriana Fallaci, Walid Shoebat, et al, as well as investigating http://www.answer_islam.org to get some facts about islam.

Laura Root

Watch out
The trolls will be coming...

Trolls
Naw, it is early yet they are still in the tub playin with their turds.
Roberta Roberta: I sure would like a Baby Ruth. Thank you Hal.

Running Away From God
So far are they, from worshipping the same God; rather, all false religions and beliefs of the world, without exception, are RUNNING AWAY FROM the one true God.

Of course the Bible, the original manuscripts, are without error. The Bible is God's Word. Does God make mistakes in His speech? Then God is not perfect.

If the Word of God contains errors, then so does the incarnate Word of God; and that means that Jesus could not die for your sins, since He had to be without blemish. 1Peter 1:19.

We not only believe in verbal "inspiration," but also in verbal "preservation," for Jesus says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35.

Yet, puny minds come along and say, "The original parchments have passed away! The words of Christ, the whole Bible, can no longer be trusted!" Absurd.

Finally, God does not hear their prayers, for if "the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination" to the LORD, Proverbs 21:27, then so is the sacrifice of their lips.

Proverbs 15:8
"The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight."

Gary Gordon





Bush
is an apostate. He is an apostate christian, denying the divinity of Jesus,,,,if Allah is God. He is an apostate in politics...he is not a conservative. He is an apostate American.....becoming a one worlder.
He a constant prevaracator.

Paolo -
Paolo, as usual you miss the point COMPLETELY. Christianity (and 'The West') have progressed from Middle Ages barbarism committed in the name of God. The Muslims have NOT. They still live in the 8th century, and their 'religion' requires they stick to 8th century barbarism. The distinction is that simple.

If you wish to see the number of "infidels" who are murdered by Muslims, world-wide, ON A DAILY BASIS, go to Jihad Watch website. They keep track of such things, just so morons such as yourself can't minimize the carnage these fanatics are causing.

The same God
I grow more afraid each day of what comes out of Washington. Does this not seem like we've all fallen down the rabbit hole with Alice? First, our leader stands silently by while we are invaded from the south, and now he believes that Islam is a religion of peace. How many days now until the next election? However, from what I hear, we may be going from the frying pan into the fire. Where is the knight in shining armor who will save this country? We need someone to stand up and speak out for the nation we used to be. Our forefathers must be weeping at the horrible mess we've made of the rules they left us to live by.

ruth anna
You're both quite accurate.

Bush is beginning to resemble Carter.

alwyr
Exactly right. The "paltry" number of beheadings is a large number by today's standards. There shouldn't be any beheadings. In addition, there should be universal condemnation of such acts, but of course people like Paolo will never condemn and are always ready to excuse the Muslims by saying it's all our fault.

What is a G-d, or G_d?
If you cannot use the proper spelling of what you intend, maybe you should blog on a liberal site. But Liz, more afraid of what is coming out of Washington is the result of what we have put into it, and accept. The greatest grifters are about to be put into the WH and we the people apparently like the idea. If anyone still respects politicians, have fun over the 8 years starting after the 2008 elections. If you see forgerers frequently coming and going from the WH you can bet that all of the original furniture and artwork is being re-worked, with the originals going to Clintons' multiple residences.

Paolo the Fool
Christians doing things that are not commanded to them in the Bible are NOT acting like Christians.

The old testament is a record of the Jews from about 5000 years ago. It is not a commandment to any Christian living today.

Finally, the Muslims do worship the same God(using a different name) as the ones Jews/Christians worship.

How do I know then that Mohammad was false?
Matthew 7:15-17
"15. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."

Looking at Mohammad's life I don't see a lot of good fruit.

On the nail, AlpenaSD
Whether you take an "bad imitation of God's Word" religion such as Mormonism or Islam, or a rankly idolatrous one such as Hinduism, or (for all-and-practical) godless one such as Buddhism or Jainism--they all serve Mammon, not God.


G W Bush a Christian?

If anybody had taken the time to learn about GWB before the first election they’d not be surprised about open borders, questionable religion, one world giver-ment, spend like a drunken sailor etc.. I remember taking abou 6 months reading all the TX archived articles from the newspapers and saying to myself this guy is going to make Clinton look like a fundamentalist right wing extremist. And so it was. What is funny is Cal is talking about nuanced stuff like his doctrinal challenges but ignores his largest increase in planned parenthood spending, he putting more anal sex people in his administration than all other presidents combined on and on.

Karl Rove created the Christian G W Bush with remedial training from members of the faith so he could answer the simple questions. Once off script he goes into melt down. Anyway Rove got him somewhat up to speed and sent him up to the CNP to get the Christian support and the rest was history. Of course at the same time he met with Tafel to get the Analtheist support also.

Look all presidential candidates are born again devout Christians, Constitutionalist, love babies and animals, etc. before they run for office.

If anybody had checked Bush out before they voted for him in ’00 they’d not be surprised by one thing he has done. The man has been rock solid the man he was in TX. What has changed is the lazy electorate has slowly learned what they voted for. Even today they have no clue how bad this guy was in TX.

Acts 4:10-12


Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.


Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.


Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Cal's a snazzy dresser, for sure
I don't proclaim to be an expert on any religion.

And the president is entitled to his beliefs, such as they are.

But many would argue with him on his view that deep down, Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same god.

My understanding of the Koran is it is the LITERAL and DEFINITIVE last word from Allah or God(to muslims), transcribed by his Prophet Mohammad. If there is conflict between the Bible and the Koran, the Koran, being the final word of Allah, is correct.

There is no "interpretation", no "nuance". It is the Word of Allah, pure and simple. It is blasphemy to even try to interpret the word of Allah, many muslims believe. The word of Allah stands as transcribed, period.

If that is true, then our president needs to understand that the bible is not necessarily the definitive work from which musliims draw their beliefs. The Koran is.

I have become increasingly convinced this president is borderline delusional on a number of issues...from immigration to Iraq and now with this speech regarding Islam.

cactus_mormon writes: 09, 2007 1:46 AM

I believe the sincere prayer of a Muslim would also be answered by our loving God if it is a righteous desire. As M_from_Idaho said, though our understanding and worship of God may differ or even be of an incorrect form, it does not change the fact that there is only "one God and Father of all" (Eph 4:6).

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

If that verse is the bases of your beliefs then you need to study it more carefully.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

It seems to me he is talking to his church of one faith, one body of believers in Christ. “You all” is not all religions but all believers in Christ who in verse 1 have been called to a vocation to follow the Gospel of Christ.

The Rick Warren, Joel Olsteen rage today of everybody will be saved in their own way is great pop culture and sells like crazy because I certainly want to Immanentize the eschaton rather than have to depend on Christ.

Theologian in Chief is all wet
Someone with the President's ear needs to inform him of basic Christianity 101. For years I have prayed that his professed Christianity was real and not just for political purposes. I now think, based on his ludicrous comments, that his faith has all along been for political purposes. No one that has even the most rudimentary knowledge of Christianity or Islam can believe what he said. No, we are not all "from Abraham." Ismael was, yes. However, Muhammad did not follow the God of Ismael. He followed the cheif pagan god of his tribe. Perhaps, if Muslims would go back to the God of Ismael they could find their way to Jesus and find true salvation. Post 33 A.D. the Bible is clear; no one comes to the JudeoChristian God of the Old and New Testament but through Jesus Christ. Jesus healed the sick; made the lame walk; made the blind see; walked on water; etc.. What exactly did Muhammad do to prove he was a prophet? Check the true history of Muhammad out Mr. President before you attempt to be a theologian for Christianity and say they are co-equal. Thank goodness this is your last term.

for Paolo
Paolo writes: "There is no crime Muslims have committed that has not also been done by Christians and Jews in their long and often sordid histories."

The difference is that Muslims have never stopped committing those crimes, and they are still committing them RIGHT NOW. Christians stopped beheading and stoning people to death centuries ago; but women got stoned to death in Iran just last year. This isn't the Middle Ages anymore--only Muslims still think that it is.

When are you going to demand that Muslims start acting as civilized as we Westerners do?

for jerabaub
jerabaub writes: "I have become increasingly convinced this president is borderline delusional on a number of issues"

No, Bush is just ignorant. Along with his neo-conservative advisers--the classic case of "the blind leading the blind."

Go read the papers and books written by the neo-conservatives (Kristol, Mylroie, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc.) back before 9-11. What's striking is that they are almost totally devoid of knowledge about Islam, Islamic culture, Arab culture, etc. They describe the history of the Middle East entirely in terms of great-power politics: Assad did this and Israel did that and Saddam did something else and the Russians meddled here and there and so on. From this came theories of terrorism and national security that focused entirely on these regimes and ignored the cultural and "people" issues.

That's how they blundered into the Iraq War. Their thinking literally stopped at the point where Saddam was toppled.

no no,
It is Thomas and Moynihan who are “define the terms” here. Moslems are not Christian and neither are Jews but they worship the God of Abraham just as Christians do. God truly is everywhere. All of existence is God’s. The course of many religions and faiths has been to narrow the focus and definitions. Even inside Christianity we find this tendency. Jesus came to show the way yet right after he did; some people seized upon his legacy and started narrowing it. While Moslems may be wrong about many religious aspects, they still worship the one true God.

The Name of God
Cal Thomas has pointed out that Muslims worship God, whom they call Allah, but reject the Trinity. I would point out that Jews also worship God, whom they call God, but reject the Trinity. And Unitarians also worship God, whom they call God, but reject the Trinity. **Note: When I used to teach in a public high school, I had a lot of observant Jewish students because our local Yeshiva didn't go all the way through high school so most of the kids there transferred to us when Yeshiva ended. Any time they had occasion to write the name of God, they always wrote it G-d and explained to me that they had been taught it was disrespectful to spell it out "God". On this thread one poster (TeeHall)has criticized another (Tinsldr2) for writing G-d, suggesting that he should move to a liberal website. If Jews are taught that it's respectful to write G-d, can't the rest of us be respectful enough to respect that respect?

I do not understand how "basic Christians" can so display petty intolerance as a canon their religion. Seems to me that's what basic Muslims are doing today in Iran.


This is what G_d means
TeeHall writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 8:34 AM
What is a G-d, or G_d?
If you cannot use the proper spelling of what you intend, maybe you should blog on a liberal site.

TeeHall, I assume that those bloggers who spell G_d are orthodox jews, who regard the name of God as too holy to be fully spelled out, in chance that a printed piece with "God" spelled out should be improperly disposed of or otherwise defiled. It is not a matter of misspelling or ignorance, it is a matter of reverence.

Yikes!!!
I accidentally agreed with Lilly on something!

Christians & Muslims should both grow up
Fundamentalists of all stripes are by definition closed minded, biased, and illogical. Anyone who believes in the literal truth of the bible, koran, book of mormon, or the i-ching is by definition a fool.

Grow up. No one with half a brain believes anything Bush says any more anyway. But if you are one of those unfortunates that believes the bible is "literal truth" take comfort in the fact that those of us who live in the real world understand that Bush is not smart, wise, or authoritative on religious matters. We also realize that whenever most politicians of whatever stripe talks about religion they are pandering to one group or another.

Christians & Muslims both should grow up
Fundamentalists of all stripes are by definition closed minded, biased, and illogical. Anyone who believes in the literal truth of the bible, koran, book of mormon, or the i-ching is by definition a fool.

Grow up. No one with half a brain believes anything Bush says any more anyway. But if you are one of those unfortunates that believes the bible is "literal truth" take comfort in the fact that those of us who live in the real world understand that Bush is not smart, wise, or authoritative on religious matters. We also realize that whenever most politicians of whatever stripe talks about religion they are pandering to one group or another.

wow
I reviewed carm.org and I don’t think it offers any support to Thomas’s claim. In fact, while the site points out the differences very clearly, the site offer some support for the claim that Moslems and Christians worship the same God.

SteveL
We are arguing whether this president(including his advisors)is delusional, or ignorant.

Given that those are the alternatives, it does not necessarily bode well for the health of our beloved republic!

I usually have no use for "the little bit of both" argument, when used in attributing a cause to a problem.

But here, an unbridled naivete and messianic belief in restructuring an ancient region of the world to conform with this president's mindset as to what constitutes proper governance, while being breathtakingly ignorant of the history and traditions of the people in the region, are part and parcel of the same general argument.

Hey Cal, ask your god for a new Earth.
There is only one God who created the heavens and the earth. One God who created all people; all Jews, all Christians, all Muslims, all Buddhists, all Hindus, all Atheists, all heterosexuals, all homosexuals, all the good, and all the bad, etc.

And that one God gave us all freewill. We all have a choice of what we do in this world. We can choose to spread peace or hate. To help others, or to criticize others we fear, because they are different.

But, for all you people Cal, who believe you have a different god from the rest of us, why not ask your special god to give you your own earth away from the rest of us?

Really, why do you special people want to be on the same planet with the rest of us when you can have your own earth with your own god.

Therefore, Mr. Thomas, get busy and tell your god you don't want to be on the planet that my God created, my God, the God of all that is in the heavens, the earth, and all that is in between.

Since you will be leaving my God's planet soon, good luck on your new planet. And be sure to take the other special people as yourself with you. When you special people with your special god are gone, so will the wars, the hate, the lies, the violence, the murders, the bigotry, the racism, and the media,also be gone.

For that I say PRAISE GOD and HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!

Bye and good luck.

Tinsldr2 writes:, 09, 2007 3:31 AM

The underlying Deity is the same but of course Christianity recognizes Jesus as an addition to the original manuscript of the Old Testament. Moslems also believe in the same G-d of the Old Testament with the addition of the Koran. Again the underlying Supreme Being is the same. Mormons believe in the same G-d. It is in what that G-d teaches us that we differ in opinion.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

They define their God of the OT differently such that the character of each is not the same. For example the Muslims claim:

"For God hath said, 'Take not to yourselves two Gods, for He is one God.'" (Sura 16:53; cp. 20:7)

"Verily God will not forgive the union of other gods with Himself." (Sura 4:51)

In the OT at least the dual Godhead character of the Trinity is revealed.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let “us” make man in “our” image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

lilly wrts:"I would point out that Jews
....also worship God, whom they call God, but reject the Trinity."
--------------------------------------------------
Where did you get that piece of BS. Lilly if you would read the first verse of the first book of the Bible (Genesis 1:1, just so you understand what I'm referencing) you would see reference to two of the Trinity. Further in Genesis (still first chapter) you will find God the Father referring to the making of man in "our image" and thus we find the first true reference to the plurality of our God's essence (i.e. He comes to us in three forms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)). The Jews from the very beginning believed in the Triune God whom they knew as the Father, the Spirit and the Promise (Jesus).

Give me a break, Lilly, and at least be informed about that which you claim to be an expert.

BTW posters, Ishmael was the father of the Arabs, not the Muslims as is so often mis-represented! One cannot equate (Arab = Muslim) for it is not a truth, it is an inequality.

The faith of Christians and Jews is, today, the same as it was 5000 years ago -- i.e. - belief in the Promise of God (Jesus).

TBC :>)

interesting thread
all kinds of theological arguments springing up.
the best point i think, is that if we all worship the same God than all religions are equal.

i also find it interesting that conservative Christians who support romney support a religion which makes the claim that Jesus Christ appeared in person to joseph smith in ohio in the 1800's.
if you can accept this fact it is not much of a stretch to accept allah as the same God as the bible.

i accept neither

lonestarblues writes: 09, 2007 6:23 AM

How can you then say that you all worship the same God when Jews deny the divinity of Jesus?

Thus three Holy Scriptures, Hebrew, Christian and Muslim, sundering all dependencies of the latter two on the first.

Like Socrates said to his accusers, I don't think anyone knows God.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Socrates is correct that we can never know God. At best we can only know what he reveals and most have trouble with that.

Your other point well made and the questioner’s restriction of no NT or Koran makes no sense when such books further identify the character of God.

Therefore your proper point that they are not worshipping the same God.

And this is the point of the Christians taking exception with Bush claiming to be a Christian and that the Muslim’s God is the same.

Not only that
How can Bush say "I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God?"

Daoists have many gods (although there is one "superior god" above all the rest). As does Shinto and those of the Hindu faith. Buddhists don't really have what can be viewed as a god in the western sense.

And while the Jewish faith, Islam and Christianity come from the same roots--each has evolved into a very different faith and its doctrine completely different.

Either Bush is unaware or more likely trying to simply say "everyone is basically the same."

If he was trying to say "all faiths recognize a number of universal truths," I suppose that could be accurate.

anti-socialist writes: 09, 2007 8:27 AM

Bush is beginning to resemble Carter.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Carter only gave away the Panama Canal, Bush is giving away the country.

Accept no "gods"
Gods are man-made.

The most lethal god of all is the god of the Humanists; can you guess who this god is?

True Christians
"True Christians NEVER use violence to spread the faith."

Like the Crusades for example (and a term still used by Christians today for "winning souls").

I could go over countless other examples as well. Of course, these would be discounted as not done by "true" Christians.

I have decoded what this means:

Christans do something evil, even when approved by the church, was done by false Christians.

Muslims do something evil, a central part of the faith.

Look both of you have done some pretty nasty things in the past and some of you continue to do so. While I think Muslims are the more violent of the two, neither of you are in this with clean hands.


Really?
Semperfi:

"The fact is that Christians are the most charitable people on the planet."

Care to back this up with some evidence. Buddhists and yes even those of Islam do charity work as well. Charity is not the exclusive of Christians.

And Third World is not really accurate anymore since the "Second World" has now vanished.


Same God
Cal, as much as I like your comments in general I believe you are off the mark on the Same God issue.
Firstly there are over 400 Christian religions that have different understandings about God yet they all pray to the same God.

The issue isn't so much praying to the same God as it is not beliving God or what he says.

I agree with your comments about the Koran, however the Bible does not teach the Trinity either. Early Chrisitans belived in the duality of the Father and the Son. Paul regularly greets the Churches with these two.

Richard

All trees are the same


quote:
In an official transcript released by the White House, the president said, "ŠI believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God."
----------------------------

No difference in a pine tree to an apple tree, both are trees.
No difference in fruit, a banana is the same thing as an orange.
No difference in dogs, a terrior is the same as a blood hound.
No difference in people we are all of this world.

This is the message the President brings.
"We are One World"
(and I am the king, Not God)
Just like good old Babylon.
Now those were the days.

True Gods
"So far are they, from worshipping the same God; rather, all false religions and beliefs of the world, without exception, are RUNNING AWAY FROM the one true God."

This is funny. Chrisitans may believe their God is the one true god just as others may believe theirs is. But as Confucius said "If we do not yet about life, how do we know about death."

Meaning, you have no idea which god (or gods) is the true one and saying something like "You worship a flase god is simply mindless."


The Black Cherokee
Good story. Now if we multiply it by 100 we get the black experience. The questions are, are you still angry or affected by your experience? How have you passed your experiences on to your children? Did you ever drive or take the train south into Delaware or Maryland and use segregated facilities? I agree with you 100% about Sharpton and Jackson; and it shouldn’t automatically be about race. But you and I are still alive. Those things you described aren’t history in a book. That was your life. Only time will quench the fires that still burn in some hearts, especially with folks like Sharpton and Jackson fanning the flames.

Alpha Towne D D: I have no idea. Would you provide a chart of all the gods and their lethalness?

Same God
Cal, as much as I like your comments in general I believe you are off the mark on the Same God issue.
Firstly there are over 400 Christian religions that have different understandings about God yet they all pray to the same God.

The issue isn't so much praying to the same God as it is not beliving God or what he says.

I agree with your comments about the Koran, however the Bible does not teach the Trinity either. Early Chrisitans belived in the duality of the Father and the Son. Paul regularly greets the Churches with these two.

Richard

Black Cherokee
Sorry, but your response to Lilly was the most fantasy-spawned, risible interpretation of the bible and more particularly, history, that I have read. Any Jew will tell you that they are STILL waiting for the Messiah; in the first century tradition said that the end of the world was near and Messiahs were popping up all over the place to promise rescue..it is most likely out of this tradition that Jesus emerged, due to a combination of circumstances and probably lots of charisma.

You can't just sit at your computer and make this stuff up - well, you can, but you shouldn't try to pass it off as fact.

Folks, I am so sorry.
My post was for another thread.

The Black Cherokee: what I meant to writhe was:

I think you know what Lilly meant. While the Jews accept all three parts of the Trinity, they do not recognize Jesus as part of it. So, in essence, they are rejecting the Trinity. Your other point is also correct, but only up to a certain limit. It is wrong to always associate the race (Arab) with the religion (Moslem). The point is however, prior to the formalization of the Moslem faith, what did the non-Jewish Arabs worship?

Alpha Towne D D: I have no idea. Would you provide a chart of all the gods and their lethalness?




What does God know anyway?
Without God having some man to speak up for Him, poor God would get blamed for every ill in this world.
He needs men to protect Him, men like the President of the United States of America.

If we really had any kindness and compassion (as it is preached by such men as GW Bush) we all would support God, cause He has to take the blame for all this confusion and evil in the world, He has no choice and needs to step up to the plate like a man and humble Himself before the mighty wisdom of the President.
Poor Jesus, He must really be feeling bad today with all the confusion He brought to this world when He said "I am the Way"

We know better now that the President has pointed out that God has no Way, its all good to just make up our own gods.

No difference in gods, how silly of anyone to think there is.

Of course Jesus Christ would never disagree with mohammed, that would hurt someones feelings, and Jesus would never dream of doing such a thing.
How can anyone of the Christian Faith say mohammed's rape, robbery and murdering is sin.
Its all good, just say god did it.

This entire issue
Is just silly of all of us to find any differences in the world.

That is our problem.

We are all one.
We have no differences, its very simple, we are just humans, all alike.

All paths lead to one place and only the most astute of men (if there a difference in smart and dumb that is, discernment and choice)
Guess that is archaic thinking today, old timers thought that one up.

Probably long before television and radio (just guessing)

Let us all put our brains in neutral, we are all vanilla and chocolate makes no changes for taste.

Try being as real as the President and accept this world is one.

No difference in a Ted Kennedy and an Apostle Paul, both just humans.

the same God
Cal writes, "How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus,"

This is a perfect example of the underhanded nonsense extreme right wingers are capable of. Many of those who posted in response to Cal's article are brainwashed by this sort of propaganda. What they imagine they know about Islam is nothing but false information they are trained to accept.

Getting to Cal's actual point, I believe he (and most other Christians) would say that Christians and Jews do worship the same God. However, the Jews not only do not believe in any divinity of Jesus but go so far as to consider him a liar and a false prophet. Muslims consider Jesus a prophet, the Messiah, and humble servant of God, a pure and righteous man born of the blessed virgin Mary. Muslims worship the same God that Jesus fell prostate before in the garden and begged to be saved from the upcoming trial of crucifixion.

Both Christianity and Judaism have more in common with Islam then they do with each other. If you study the three religions without bias you might come to the same conclusion.
--
Peace

Allah
Pres. Bush has support from Prof. Peters at NYU that Muslims and Jews and, by extension, Christians worship the same God.

From Wikipedia, under 'Allah':

According to F. E. Peters, "The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews.[Qur'an 29:46] The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham".

The Black Cherokee 09, 2007 11:00 AM

lilly wrts:"I would point out that Jews
....also worship God, whom they call God, but reject the Trinity."
--------------------------------------------------
Where did you get that piece of BS. … The Jews from the very beginning believed in the Triune God whom they knew as the Father, the Spirit and the Promise (Jesus).

…The faith of Christians and Jews is, today, the same as it was 5000 years ago -- i.e. - belief in the Promise of God (Jesus).

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

My good friend, I never agree with Lilly but I’m not sure we are all discussing the same thing and she may be correct (did I actually just say that?). Jews may believe in a triune, but the difference is that they do not consider three separate persons of the same Godhead.

I suspect, (not a Jew) that this issue comes about because of each view of Jesus. Jesus is a separate person to the Christian. Certainly you can not substitute the word God for Jesus throughout the NT and make sense. The Jew however looks at the promise as being a dimension not a person of the Godhead. The Jew will look at the following verses and say “servant” is not a Godhead person but the dimension of God to fulfill his promise.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

In the OT it talks about the Spirit of God frequently and as though it is a separate person but the Jews will again contend this is a dimension of the characteristic of God he is sending, not a separate person.



According to the Bible
there is only one God. This is called the monotheistic tradition, and its root is in Abraham.

If Muslims, Jews and Christians pray to God, then they pray to the same God, because there is only one God.

If Christians say that Muslims don't pray to the same God, do they mean that Muslims pray to Satan or some other spiritual being? Or is this just shorthand for "we have significantly different beliefs", which I thought was pretty obvious.

Although the attacks of Islamists have made it an unfashionable way of thinking, many scholars have noted the similarities of belief of the Abrahamic religions, and indeed of all major religions. To make just one point, all religions preach self-control, the control of the mind over the body. Is this a coincidence?

Irony?
"Whatever else his critics say of him, no one can fault President Bush for failing to go the extra mile in his efforts to show that neither he, nor the United States, is opposed to the Islamic faith, or to Muslim nations."

Then Cal faults Pres Bush for going the extra mile. Is it lost on Cal that the very expression comes from Jesus' call for empathy and self-sacrifice for the sake of peace and brotherly love?


Akagi writes: 09, 2007 11:29 AM

Like the Crusades for example (and a term still used by Christians today for "winning souls").

I could go over countless other examples as well. Of course, these would be discounted as not done by "true" Christians.

I have decoded what this means:

Christans do something evil, even when approved by the church, was done by false Christians.

Muslims do something evil, a central part of the faith.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

The crusades were done by one sect of the Christian community and clearly had no Biblical foundation for such activity. Actually other Christian sects in Europe had been subject to these crusades. Why not specifically identify the sect rather than make it a doctrinal issue which it was not.

Jim Jones and Koresh also participated in the slaughter of their own believers and called themselves Christians so now we can also say that Christianity is the doctrine of drink the cool aid and die or rape the children and burn theology.

Every tyrant, every megalomaniac every politician on and on has always misappropriated the word of God for his private agenda. Why should that make God evil instead of the guy evil. If I start killing in the name of Mother Teresa does that make her evil or me evil?

Akagi writes: 09, 2007 11:39 AM

Chrisitans may believe their God is the one true god just as others may believe theirs is. But as Confucius said "If we do not yet about life, how do we know about death."

Meaning, you have no idea which god (or gods) is the true one and saying something like "You worship a flase god is simply mindless."

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

From a logical perspective Confusion’s (sic) premise is his proof and/or your synopsis is your premise.

Although you say, “have no idea which God (gods) is true”, somebody has a true God and therefore knows about life and death.

Now the question is which religion has that true God. Well what we know is that all religions tell us of the past or present but only one tells of the future. That religion has made over 800 prophesies that have come to fruition and only two remain to be fulfilled. For example it prophesied the specifics of the birth and death of Jesus and where he’d be born. Now statistically to be correct over 800 times brings it into the never land of mathematical probability and therefore unlike other religions has no peer as to authority. So if you’d want to start looking it probably would make sense to start with a track record like that.

Anna
I've wondered the same thing? I've asked repeatedly, how can a "born again" Christian ignored his oath of office..that's a sacred oath and not to be taken lightly. Yet he's protected
the rights of illegals, jailed good men for doing their sworn duty on the perjured testimony of a career criminal; pledged to fight for the rights of illegals while in Mexico; NAU. And sending the U.S. Solicitor General to side with the defense attny's for Jose Medellin, who is
sentenced to die in the brutal murder of two beautiful young AMERICAN teens..at the bidding of Mexico? I guess it's because we are all alike, no national identity, no borders, no Constitution and no Judeo/Christian heritage. No wonder his administration is opening the doors to immigrants from the M.E. who are building mosques in every nook and cranny of this country.
He's not nuts, he knows exactly what he's doing.
I voted twice for him but the day he leaves office will be a day me and mine will CELEBRATE..
if we have a country left to celebrate in.
At least now I have an answer I've been asking
my Congressman since the first Ramadan dinner..why is he doing it? Cuz we all worship
the same God..No Way.
His treachery is worst than Benedict Arnolds.
Carter is an amatuer compared to him.

What?
svirk writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:17 PM
the same God
Cal writes, "How can the president say that we all worship the same God when Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus,"

This is a perfect example of the underhanded nonsense extreme right wingers are capable of. Many of those who posted in response to Cal's article are brainwashed by this sort of propaganda. What they imagine they know about Islam is nothing but false information they are trained to accept.
---------

You are dividing us all up svirk, so get with the President and stop this making such distinctions, we are all human beings.

There is no such a difference, we are one.
You are the problem, causing such divisions among us with "right wingers" being separated for your bitter railing against.

Be at peace dear brother and lay off this hate speech, ok?

John 14:16
I believe Bush needs to review this key verse:

"I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

If you don't believe this, how can you be a Christian?

This is the spirit
We all need (to be one world)We have no differences.
There is no truths no lies
There is no right and no wrong
There is no good and no evil.
We are all the same
----------

PeterE writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:28 PM
Irony?
"Whatever else his critics say of him, no one can fault President Bush for failing to go the extra mile in his efforts to show that neither he, nor the United States, is opposed to the Islamic faith, or to Muslim nations."

Then Cal faults Pres Bush for going the extra mile. Is it lost on Cal that the very expression comes from Jesus' call for empathy and self-sacrifice for the sake of peace and brotherly love?
---------------------

Take that Jesus and repent for not seeing the wisdom of today from PeterE.

Lu 12:51 -
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Joh 7:43 -
So there was a division among the people because of him.

GW Bush is the great voice of unity and Jesus Christ is the enemy of this world

The President is a man of peace
And we need to recognize him as the prince of peace, no longer Jesus Christ, but GW Bush has now taken over for him with his NEW gospel, of one world and no differences in humans or gods and God.
---------------------

Reaganite writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:56 PM
John 14:16
I believe Bush needs to review this key verse:

"I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

If you don't believe this, how can you be a Christian?
----------

Christian, Jew, Buddist, Hindu, muslim, Charlie Manson, Mother Theresa, pillow or rock.
We must stop all this divisions for the gospel of GW Bush, now being the prince of peace and not the divider of men Jesus Christ is.

Talent scout: The division
Jesus was talking about was between the godly and the ungodly. He was not seeking division amongst believers. You have use to use a little context.

In some situations, likewise, Paul preached unity, in other situations, he preached division.

Context.

PeterE



PeterE writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:20 PM
According to the Bible
there is only one God. This is called the monotheistic tradition, and its root is in Abraham.

If Muslims, Jews and Christians pray to God, then they pray to the same God, because there is only one God.

If Christians say that Muslims don't pray to the same God, do they mean that Muslims pray to Satan or some other spiritual being? Or is this just shorthand for "we have significantly different beliefs", which I thought was pretty obvious.

Although the attacks of Islamists have made it an unfashionable way of thinking, many scholars have noted the similarities of belief of the Abrahamic religions, and indeed of all major religions. To make just one point, all religions preach self-control, the control of the mind over the body. Is this a coincidence?

Foxfire:

According to the bible there is only one God (Jehovah).

There are many gods which man worships. Just because they are the earthly seed of Abraham does not mean that they serve the same God as Abraham. Think of the difference of a deist and a Christian. A deist believes in a supreme being, may even call Him the God of Abraham.

But, a deist does not serve the God of Abraham. The deist does not agree that he is a sinner, needs redemption, and accepts the Deity of Christ, or believes the Bible or anything in it.
For all practical purposes he might as well be an idolater.

Read John 8: 39 – 47 carefully.

Where the confusion lies is that people don’t understand the difference between Christianity and religion.

God is not trying to make you a better person; He changes you completely from the inside out.

The problem lies in the way that Christians take advantage of what God has done for them.
Nowhere in scripture does it say to force people to believe the gospel or they loose there heads.

If it was not due to Jesus Christ
This world would have peace.

This man Jesus is the cause of all ills in the world of today, let His Name be taken from all public exposure.
He will just fade away and disappear.

Lets go after any divider today who even mentions this name.
This name Jesus Christ is to be banned, it is unappreciated as the cause of all ills in the world, and all men who speak of Him needs to be silenced.

Gotta give this man Jesus Christ credit, He predicted His own demise among men.

Although the bible over does it repeating it again and again, not that important is it.

Mt 10:22 -
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:9 -
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mr 13:13 -
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Lu 19:14 -
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Lu 21:17 -
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Joh 15:18 -
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Joh 15:24 -
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Joh 15:25 -
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Joh 17:14 -
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Ro 9:13 -
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



a lot of confusion
Isn't the amount of theological confusion in this particular forum itself evidence that people do not all worship God? I suppose that if I believed in the false gods of Hinduism or Buddhism I could accept any amount of contradiction, but this forum seems to be mostly concerned with the beliefs of Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Many of the posters, posters who often profess Christianity, have such different beliefs!
This confusion is present despite the fact that God in the Old Testament immediately established for His chosen people a commandment demanding exclusive worship of His person, a commandment forbidding all misrepresentation of His attributes, a commandment placing the highest possible stakes on the use of His name, and a commandment for the public remembrance of and education in all these commandments.
I don't know the context of Habakkuk 2:14, but I do remember the verse itself: "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Maybe that verse has been fulfilled, but one wants a still greater fulfilment. Of course, for such a desire to be genuine, it must be accompanied by serious worship, study, prayer, and catechism.

Yes PeterE
I do not disagree with anyone, including you.
I am for peace and safety too.
--------------

PeterE writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 1:14 PM
Talent scout: The division
Jesus was talking about was between the godly and the ungodly. He was not seeking division amongst believers. You have use to use a little context.

In some situations, likewise, Paul preached unity, in other situations, he preached division.

Context.
----------

Context or not, peace and saftey is what I want, just like the President is preaching, and Paul said was to come.

1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul, the Apostle was uncaring and did not understand what context peace and safety is all about.
He is mistaken no doubt, cause if we all want peace and safety, no destruction can come.

interesting
What is funny about Thomas' argument is how utterly atheistic it is at root. If one thinks of God as a fictional character who is described differently in different books, then his account seems right that there is enough difference in the various books to doubt whether the vengeful God of the old testament is really the loving God of the new testament.

But if one believes there actually exists one and only one God, then it seems odd to take that God to be defined by how various groups understand his principles. What would seem to make the three religions about the same God is God. The possibility of an existence of an actual God seems to be what is missing from this argument.

Really?
Care to list some of these 800. Is there any proof Jesus was born as stated in the Bible and the events in the O.T. are about as silly sounding as what the Mormons believe.

And there doesn't have to be one true god--sorry, we could all be wrong.


I stopped buying...
...this nonsense that Allah was the same God I worship a long time ago. The god (small "g") of Islam entreats his followers to make war on the infidel. Apostates are executed in Iran and Saudi Arabia (and in Taliban controlled Afghanistan) in accordance with Sharia law. CAIR never mentions in all their "We're just like you" bravo sierra anything about how infidels have three choices in the Muslim utopia: Conversion, Submission or death. Military personnel who were sent to Saudi Arabia were specifically instructed not to bring Bibles along because the Christian Bible is banned in Muslim dictatorships. The Muslim idea of paradise is a hedonistic retreat where the saved can engage in all manner of forbidden pleasures (Alcohol, promiscuous sex, etc.)

None of that resembles the word of God (capital "G") as I am given to understand Him through the Bible and Catholic Tradition. God doesn't tell me to kill Jews and Muslims, He tells me to bring the Good News of Christ's saving Grace to them. He doesn't tell me that Heaven is full of sinful pleasures, but true happiness in being close to God. Christians are never told to give non-Christians the choice between conversion, submission, or death (and those who do that anyway will have a lot to answer for when they meet St. Peter.)

I do not level blanket condemnations to Hell, that's above my pay grade. And, I suppose I could theoretically have been mislead (in which case so have billions of others) but someone has been, and I don't think it was me.

Does all this mean I think Allah to be a nonexistant god (small "g") and Muhammad to be a false prophet? I suppose it does.

HJG

By the way...
Anyone wishing to compare and contrast the Christian God and the Muslim god should look at the reaction toward unfavorable depictions to the respective religions. When artists, actors, news anchors, and other leftists portray Christianity in a bad light, the most you get is riteous indignation and (if it is something directly blasphemous, like the "Last Temptation of Christ") protests. When anyone says anything about Islam other than "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" there are riots, death threats, murders, bombings, burning flags, burning embassies, and fatwas ordering the death of the infidel.

ONE QUESTION
"Who do you say that I AM"?

All people, including Bush will be asked this very question. Furthermore, all people will be accountable regardless of their religious beliefs due to the correct answer given.

"Your are the Christ the Son of the living God"

Besides PeterE
As you so elequently point out:
-----------
PeterE writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 1:14 PM
Talent scout: The division
Jesus was talking about was between the godly and the ungodly. He was not seeking division amongst believers. You have use to use a little context.

In some situations, likewise, Paul preached unity, in other situations, he preached division.

Context.
----------------
We now should all know there is no differences.
There is no godly
There is no ungodly
No believers
No unbelievers
No divisions among men, Jesus unites all men and made no distinctions.
No god
No truth
No lie
No sin
No righteousness
No crime
No law
No outlaw.
Its all up for each man to decide, but understanding we are all one, as God is the same over-all.
Just as the President says.

I am for Peace
But if I speak of my God, the Father of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords, many are for war.
I now see my Faith is the problem for this world

The Apostle Paul was the trouble maker and mad man Festus said he was.
Too bad he was not crucified in Rome.

Acts 26:
24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.




O.T. genocide
Bluepiper writes (4:52 AM):

As for Israel in the O.T. and their wars; God led them in the extermination of idol worshippers to cleanse the land for Israel to be established as the nation that would bring the knowledge of the true God to the rest of the nations.

GREENHORN WRITES:

Thanks! You have read what God Himself said (in the Bible) about His reasons for His genocide of the original Canaanites. Let God be found true though every man be found a liar.

God's destroying of a nation is not in itself unusual: history has many examples of the same, including Noah's flood. I think that the case of Canaan was unique because one people was verbally given the assignment of wiping out another people--and then punished for not completing their assignment. As for modern jihadists, the Muslims--God has not spoken to them, at least not in the way that they think, i.e. not through the Koran. The Koran is false, and there is a world of difference between it and the Bible.

Many Muslims do seem to understand one thing better than do many Christians, myself included: there is more to life than childhood, marriage, a career, and retirement. Whether God calls me out of this life in twenty years' time or now, He takes my life. He is God, and He decides.

The Christian remembers every Lord's day his Lord's victory over death. Death should not have overwhelming terror for him.

Akagi
There's a story that Jesus tells in the Bible (it was in last Sunday's (30 Sep) readings in the Catholic Church) and it goes something like this:

A rich man had a poor man named Lazarus begging near the rich man's home for many years. After a time both died, Lazarus going to "the bosom of Abraham" and the rich man going to "the netherworld, where he was in torment." The rich man, realizing his predicament was of his own making asks Abraham to send Lazarus down to him with a little water to quench his thirst. Abraham says that isn't how it works. Then the rich man asks that he be sent back to warn his friends, and again Abraham says No. Finally the rich man asks that Lazarus be sent (as Lazarus isn't being punished) saying that if the rich man's friends saw someone having risen from the dead, they would repent. Abraham replies:

"If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead."

(the whole story is Luke 16: 19-31)

Some people are inclined not to accept what the Bible says, always asking for nonbiblical proof of what Christians believe. You either believe or you don't. Those who don't are disinclined to start without a really good reason. Those who do accept what the Bible says on Faith because we believe that it was inspired by God. We can't prove anything in the Bible, but "blessed are they who have not seen, but have believed." (John 20: 29)

The first step toward salvation in Christianity is unconditional faith.

HJG

same Abrahamic God
or G-d.

No matter how you spell it.

Also,
I didn't know so many Christians were polytheists
with their Christian God, Muslim God, etc.

We must stop with such
Outrageous language so God can be seen as pure as we all are.

The very idea of calling an earthquake an Act of God gives us all the wrong impression of a loving God.

God is Love, accepting all into His Grace and Kingdom.

The Tsunami
that killed
ALL
Those dearly beloved men was not an ACT of God, He loves us all the same and makes no difference with such cruel deeds.

Blaming God for wars and killing would allow some to get the idea Stalin and Mao, Hitler and Osama were Gospel Preachers.

God's unchanging nature
I'll make one more attempt and then give up.

It baffles me that people believe the nature of God to be different if our belief in his nature is different.

That Muslims, Jews, and Christians have a different understanding of his nature does not change the fact that they are all attempting to worship the same God even if they are doing it incorrectly.

As with many of you, I believe as the Apostle John said:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Our purpose here is to discover God's true nature.

And by the way, there is no other Arabic word for God than Allah. Arabic Christians and Muslims use the same word for God.

Happy Jake
You are confusing the acts of man with the acts of God. While you are free to believe anything you want, the willful misrepresentation of God by men does not change God in any way. Furthermore, if you are a Catholic, then it is an article of faith that Muslims worship the God of Abraham who is the one true God of the church.

You give and you then take
cactus_mormon writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 2:28 PM
God's unchanging nature
I'll make one more attempt and then give up.

It baffles me that people believe the nature of God to be different if our belief in his nature is different.

That Muslims, Jews, and Christians have a different understanding of his nature does not change the fact that they are all attempting to worship the same God even if they are doing it incorrectly.

As with many of you, I believe as the Apostle John said:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Our purpose here is to discover God's true nature.
----------------

If you truly believe this:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

One needs look no further than this to see Gods Nature.
And not seek to find His nature in nature or a prophet, or a king, just rest with what Paul said here:
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Run this by the first Muslim or Hindu you come across, see if they agree.

I do not think they will, so do you preach we need to see Jesus as a muslim does?
A Hindu?
An atheist?
Or anyone else in the world?
Or should we do as the Apostle Paul said to do?
I think I will do it as Paul says to do it.

Here is something I cannot understand
MikeR writes: 2:48 PM
Furthermore, if you are a Catholic, then it is an article of faith that Muslims worship the God of Abraham who is the one true God of the church.
-----------------------
Does God have a Son?
Is the Son of God the Saviour?
Is Jesus Lord?
Is God confused about this?

Happy Jake
"The god (small "g") of Islam entreats his followers to make war on the infidel.........The Muslim idea of paradise is a hedonistic retreat where the saved can engage in all manner of forbidden pleasures (Alcohol, promiscuous sex, etc.)."

Quite obvious as to why the Democrats (communist/nazis) are "opening the door" to Islam.

A long thread
Still going through this thread so I don't know if anyone reminded Slacker that he is a bigot, and an ignorant one at that when he says:

" Fundamentalists of all stripes are by definition closed minded, biased, and illogical. Anyone who believes in the literal truth of the bible, koran, book of mormon, or the i-ching is by definition a fool."

Thanks for those oh, so tolerant and wise words Slacker. ;-)

Tell me Slack, do you believe in the fundamentals of physics such as the Law of Gravity, or the constancy of the speed of light? If you do, then, by your own self-proclaimed definition, you are a "closed-minded". You need to be more open-minded. The belief in gravity is for fools.

The painting with such a broad brush as to call all those who believe in fundamentals is the very definition of a sophist. Obviously, the fundamental belief in some things (the 9/11 controlled demolition theory or Evolutionary theory) can be considered closed-minded. Nevertheless, Christian fundamentalists believe in the Words of Jesus Christ (who, evidently according to Slacker, was a closed minded fool).

I believe and try to follow everything Christ advocated (all of which was MIND EXPANDING). If that makes me a closed-minded fool, then so be it.

To bring it back to the article...
...does anybody notice how bad the logic is in this article? It's terrible. A logical argument is one in which the conclusions follow its premises with support. But here, for example, the author writes: "If we all worship the same God, the president should answer the call of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden, convert to Islam and no longer be a target of their wrath. What difference would it make if we all worship the same God?"

Huh? How does that conclusion follow that premise? It isn't explained. It's so difficult to make a logical argument based on religion.

All myths are NOT created equal...

...You got that one right, Cal, thanks.

Those Mormons! Just goes to show that anyone who can believe in the "empty tomb" can believe in anything.

Jesus would turn over in his grave if he ever found out what the Christ Myth, Paul, and the "New Testament" did to his Jewish person, Jewish hopes, Jewish faith, Jewish scriptures and Jewish God.

Ex 4:22

Shalom

The three great world religions
Svirk writes:

"Muslims worship the same God that Jesus fell prostate before in the garden"

There is ZERO evidence for this statement. If you wish to back it up please do. We can argue our OPINIONS on this subject but why not just rely on the history and roots of each religion?

1. Islam derives from Mohammed's amalgamation of several local belief systems of his day. He took some of the New Testament, some of the Old, some of the local moon god worship and a bunch of his own arab warrior philosophies and combined them into the writings found in the Quran. YHWH is nowhere found in the Quran.

2. Judaism is based on what Christians call the Old Testament. Modern orthodox Jews do not believe in Christ as the Messiah (they still seek him). Keep in mind that ALL in the early church before Paul (a Jew by the way) made his missionary journeys, were Jews. Millions of Jews have come to know Jesus through studying their Hebrew Bible.

3. Christians believe and follow the writings of the same Hebrew scriptures as do Jews, but also believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the famous Jewish prophets; Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and Jeremiah. In this respect, Christianity can be rightly considered to be a Jewish sect (but with the addition of Gentiles.)

Bottom line, you have to judge a religion based on whether its writings are true. The Quran has no "checksum" by which we can measure its veracity. The Jewish and Christian Scriptures do. People ignore them but they are there in black and white.

So no, Muslims do not worship the God of the Bible. They worship a pagan moon god (whether they know it or not), which is why Allah was never defined by Mohammed in the Quran. The Arabs of the 7th century already knew who he was.

See http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm for more.

Jawls
I agree - there's not an argument there.

The three great world religions
There are more than three--I think you are forgetting the qualifier--monotheistic.

All the religions
. . . of the world tell mankind what he must do to earn God's favor.

Except one. Christianity tells mankind, "It is finished." I have done for you what you could not do for yourselves: I have forgiven your sins, taken them upon my sinless self, and suffered the punishment for your sins; I have reconciled you to God. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," i.e., for those who believe and trust in me for their salvation.

All the religions of the world except Christianity are but creations of mankind who will not believe that forgiveness is free, that he must cease from his striving, because Christ Himself has lived the perfect life no amount of man's striving can acheive. And as the spotless Lamb of God, Christ has sacrificed Himself for us. God demands of us perfection in order to enter His heaven; what He demands, He has also provided, in the saving work of Jesus Christ.

Mankind prefers to save himself through his own set of good works, because in his arrogance he refuses to believe that his salvation depends on God's grace and not his own efforts.

I am appalled that GWBush, after portraying himself as a Bible-believing Christian, could utter a blasphemy that heralds all religions as equally valid/true. In doing so, he denies the saving work of Jesus Christ. It is better that a millstone be around his neck and for him to be drowned in the depths of the sea than for him to cause a believer to sin (unbelief is the chief sin) and to doubt that Jesus alone can save man from the just condemnation for his sins.



Talent Scout
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
No, God is not confused and neither is the Catholic Church. We accept that not all men worship God in the same way and that some may even do it without realizing they are doing it through grace. In this case, however off the path they may have strayed, Moslems still worship the one true God. That is what Catholics believe.

Beeblebrox: I love the moon God hoax. And that’s what you’ve fallen for if you believe such nonsense. No, the Catholic Church has been quite specific about this.

Different Gods
Christians can say they worship the same God as the Jews because Christianity grew out of Judaism. They were waiting for the Messiah; He came. The ones who recognized that became Christians who later spread the gospel to Gentiles. The ones who didn't recognize that remained Jews who ... well, are still waiting. It has been said by a messianic Jewish friend of mine that Christians worship the "complete God of the Bible". My friend claims that before he knew Christ, he was worshipping only the part of God of which he was aware. His still-Jewish family members may disagree with him, but that's his take on the situation.

Allah, on the other hand, is not the God of the Bible. Mohammed had several wives, one of whom was a Christian (nominally, anyways). He borrowed heavily from what she believed to craft his new religion. He also threw in references to Judaism because he hoped to convert Jews living in the area around Medina (or maybe it was Mecca; he bounced back and forth). While he was aware of Jewish and Christian beliefs, one read of the Koran shows anyone familiar with the Bible that Mohammed was not familiar with the Bible. If he were or if the God of the Bible had inspired the Koran, the two defining documents would agree on important details and they don't. Just the example of Jesus not dying on the cross provides a HUGE illustration. The Bible is very clear that Jesus died on a cross. Semetic religions throughout the middle east had difficulty with this form of death. They felt it cursed the executed forever. (This was one reason the Jews gave for rejecting Jesus after His death). Mohammed fudged to get around it and said that it was really Judas. Of course, you'd think Allah (if he was both the God of Israel and the god of Mecca) would have gotten it right. That's just ONE example!


Jawls
I agree - there's not an argument there.

God's favor
". . . of the world tell mankind what he must do to earn God's favor."

Not sure what you mean by this. As I stated before, there really isn't a god in Buddhism as you would define it in the west. It of course lays down what must be done to reach enlightenment which is the ends you wish to achieve. I would have said desire, but of course desire is one of many things that keeps you from reaching that state.

Daoists and Hindus have multiple gods, etc etc.

There are more than 3 religions in the world.


3 great religions
When I use the phrase "great" I am referring to a quantitative measure, not qualitative. I don't, in any way, believe that Islam is great, qualitatively. In fact, it is a quaint, backward, manmade pagan belief system. I had hoped that people would understand the use of the term "great" in this context since it is an established colloquialism.

MikeR. You criticize my assertion that Allah was a pagan moon god and then provide ZERO support for your assertion (while I provided a specific link on the subject).

If you did not click on the link, allow me to summarize (with apologies to Jim for the length):

-The cult of the Moon-god was the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia.

-While Arabs worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god.

-The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult.

-The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God. The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. "the god", which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.

-under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being.

-In ancient Syria and Canna, the Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. (sound familiar?)

Bottom line? Archeology has proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Islam rose from the polytheistic pagan worship of Allah the moon god and his 3 daughters.

The Koran focuses on the
cnquests of Mohammed and what to do with the conquered.

The conquered if Christians or Jews are co-people of the Book and are given a chance to convert or pay an extra religious tax. If they will neither convert nor pay the tax, they should be killed.

Non people of the Book don't even get the extra tax option. They get to be killed. Look at the Buddhists, animists, Hindus, and other religious peoples being killed by Muslims today. Surely, in Thailand and Cambodia, Muslims aren't killing people for supporting Israel or supporting American troops in Iraq.'

I am sure there are peaceful disinterested Muslims who want to live life without strife and and conflict, but wherever they are, they are not able to influence or affect the crazies of their religion who want everyone to by Muslim or dead.

Fear of Bush
I used to be a great supporter of Bush. There was nothing he could do that I did not support. Now my heart has soured and I do not believe that he is Christian in any way, shape or form. Please disagree with me and explain then this. Why has his family been in bed with the Saudis throughout their history. Why when Saudi builds anti american mosques throughout the world, funds terrorists against us and Israel, Why he let Saudi nationals Fly during the 911 aftermath when Americans were not allowed to fly.
Another concern is immigration. He is on his knees worshipping Mexico and follows everything the mexican government spouts.
No for me Bush cares nothing about America or American's. Please tell me why I am wrong so I can be proud again.

I have to disagree with Cal here:
I am a conservative Christian, but I find it completely plausable for the God who revealed himself to Abraham to be the same God worshiped by the three Great monotheistic religions of the world. Certainly the God of the Old Testament Jews is the same God that said of Jesus, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased." He is also the same God who said to Abraham that his chosen people would be descended from Isaac and not Ishmael the father of the Arabic peoples today. Their understanding of who the one God is ...is what is different and in the case of Islam I belive they are following a false prophet in Mohammed. The Jewish people already have their Messiah if they choose to accept Him as their Lord and Savior and many have as have many Muslim people.

If Jesus was still in the grave
Shelama writes: 3:58 PM

Jesus would turn over in his grave if he ever found out what the Christ Myth, Paul, and the "New Testament" did to his Jewish person, Jewish hopes, Jewish faith, Jewish scriptures and Jewish God.

Ex 4:22

Shalom
---------------
But He is not.
He is alive ever more

Yes, Israel is God's first son.



Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
----------

And like Esau, the first born, sold his birthright for thirty pieces of silver as Esau sold his for lentils.

Ge 27:21 -
And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not

And Isaac was fooled by trusting his "feelings" over his ears.




Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.


Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD


Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;


The prophesy of Jeremiah concerning the potters field is found is 19th chapter.

And the valley of Hinnom, the place of death.
And the evil that befell Jerusalem for forsaking the Lord.






President Bush Misguided about Islam.
I voted for President Bush twice. Having said that: his position on ILLEGAL immigration and desire for Amnesty(by any other name) for millions of law breakers is incomprehensible. His failure to secure our borders or to recognize the potential threat it poses is additionally striking. I can only assume that his agenda comes before American security.
As far as Islam worshipping the same God.
If president Bush believes Sacred Scripture he is aware that Satan is the author of deception and confusion, "by their fruits ye shall know them". The fruits of islam is subjugation and death. Just look around the globe to the violent trouble spots...all invole Islam.
He should read the Qur'an and hadith. It will make clear that Islam is NOt of the God of the Bible.

You are 100 percent correct
Beeblebrox writes:

While Arabs worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god.

-The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult.

-The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God. The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. "the god", which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.

-under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being.
---------------------


The arabs of mohammeds day never once asked .....who is allah?
He pre-existed as one of the 360 gods of the ancient devil worshipping arabs.

And allah is the exalted one of islam has a total opposite view of the world than the God of Israel, the Father of Jesus Christ.
Seen in the differences of Saudi Arabia and the USA.
Not close to holding the same values, even today with America backslidden from God

allah may be a name for god in arabic, but more so it describes the attributes of the one they accept as god.
I reject as satan.






Bush, a Christian?
Vulcan writes:

"I do not believe that he is Christian in any way"

We have to be careful here. Does he ACT like a Christian? Someone above said that, because he seems to be a supporter of the NAU, that he is not a Christian. OTOH, his compassion toward his enemies (he never seems to have a bad word to say about any of them, foreign or domestic) is very Christian.

If Bush accepted Jesus Christ as his personal redeeming savior (i.e. "born again" as Jesus called it), then he IS a Christian.

There are a lot of born again Christians who err doctrinally. Doesn't change their eternal destiny at all. Conversely, there are HUGE numbers of people who are only "cultural Christians" and are not technically "born again". Mormons and many of those in main line "liberal" denominations could fall into this category. They are "good" people and believe in doing good but they believe doing good grants them salvation, contrary to Christ's own teachings. One can accept Christ as savior and NEVER do anything good before dying and still go to heaven. A mormon who does good works all his life but does not accept Jesus as his EXCLUSIVE Lord and savior, will not, according to Jesus, go to heaven.

As far as GW, he sounds like either a.) he has no clue about the doctrine of Christian salvation or b.) he is being a "compassionate" politician and trying not to offend.

Personally, I see his embrace of Islam as similar to his embrace of illegals from Mexico. He believes that his Christian duty is to reach out to everyone even at the expense of his own country. Nice philosophy but IT IS NOT WHAT WE HIRED HIM TO DO.

Beeblebrox
Revealing comment - "not what we hired him to do". Who is the "we" that hired President Bush? What is his job description?

While a politician may have his constituency, he also has a responsibility to all those other Americans that did not vote for him, and to his conscience.

@PeterE
It sounds like you are defending Bush's cowtowing to Islamists and illegals.

He is hired to uphold the constitution. Period. It is a violation of his oath to reach out to either Muslim extremists or to illegals.

Furthermore, while he may think it diplomatic, telling the world that Christianity=Universalism is not his job either.



Bush and God
"President Bush is wrong - dangerously wrong - in proclaiming that all religions worship the same God."

No he isn't. A god is a god is a god. A thing, that has no form, can't be seen or heard or communicated to. How is any god any different from any other in that context? All gods amount to the same thing - zero. To worship one is to worship all, or rather to worship what is not and can never be. "God" is the epitome of nihilism. And Bush can call himself a Christian, an Islamite, or a Jew. He's dangerous regardless, and probably views himself as a direct disciple of god, as President.

Remember-
You don't get a do-over. Its gotta be really important for you to commit sin and say "whatever" to any possible consequences. Especially when being wrong could mean you have endangered the lives of ones you love. Could any choice be more arrogant? More disrespectful? Less caring? Do you really want to convince other people you care about that God does not exist when you can never be sure yourself?

Rather, look to the God that loved you so much he sacrificed his son for you. He did it knowing some of you would gladly spit in his face and despise his name. Look to the creator that gives the most vile among us a chance for redemption and gives hope to all who live. The very soldiers who mocked his son and stabbed him - God would rather they believed on Jesus and spent eternity in paradise instead of sending them to H*ll, condemned by their own decisions.

If we were in his place, would we do the same? You know the answer already. We are not God. Nor are we worthy to judge him.

He gives freely to those who ask and offers paradise for all eternity. Your life on Earth is the briefest moment of your existence. Whether you believe in Christ or not, your happiness in life here is not fulfilled by going your own way and always wondering if you caused a loved one to go into damnation. You don't really want to live with that. Do you? I hope not.

Who is a liar?

1Jo 2:22 -
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


-----------------------
MikeR writes: 4:34 PM
Talent Scout
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
--------
ts:
The koran and muslims say:
No.
No.
No.
--------------


MikeR writes:
No, God is not confused and neither is the Catholic Church.
-------
ts:
One is, I am betting it is not God.
-------
MikeR writes:
We accept that not all men worship God in the same way and that some may even do it without realizing they are doing it through grace. In this case, however off the path they may have strayed, Moslems still worship the one true God. That is what Catholics believe.
--------------
ts:
The Apostle's John, Peter and Paul didn't, neither do I
They is very clear on this matter in all writings of the New Testament.

(posted once and edited, not sure the 1st made it to the thread)

Beeb
Sounds like you are reading too much into my comment, and into the constitution, for that matter.

Nice opinion but..
RickV404 writes:

'A god is a god is a god".

This is only true if you stick with the lower case "g". There are gods and then there is the Almighty God. (even Stargate SG-1 made a point of acknowledging this in multiple episodes - in case anyone cares :-)

My question for you Rick is whether you have done any study of the various claims re: God?

The Bible is demonstrably true based on its ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy. This is how God demonstrates his reality to us. The non-believer either ignores this reality or is ignorant of it. Only a Being who lives out of our human dimensionality of time can foretell the future as if it is already history. Often the Bible uses phraseology that, in the original Hebrew or Greek, talks of our future as if it already in the past. That is the way, evidently, God sees history.

The precision of Biblical prophesy is all the proof one should need that the God of the Bible is a real Being.

There are numerous proof texts if you are interested in such things Rick. An open-minded person (a "seeker) typically IS interested in learning how it is that the Bible is able to accurately predict the future.



@PeterE
You write:

"Sounds like you are reading too much into my comment, and into the constitution, for that matter."

If so then I apologize. Because your post was a bit cryptic, I had to read into it somewhat. Please elaborate on your position.

The Same God?
As a life long Christian and a life long Republican, Mr. Bush makes me despondent more and more each day. I'm ready for a change in the White House. He certainly didn't turn out to be the president I thought he would be.

I could be wrong you understand, but who knows? Maybe Al Gore might have been better. (Never mind. That can't be right). But he wouldn't have been much worse.

Al Gore not much worse???
"Maybe Al Gore might have been better. (Never mind. That can't be right). But he wouldn't have been much worse."

The guy who promoted the Kyoto Protocol?

The guy who called Bush "Hitler"?

The guy who would NEVER have lowered our income taxes?

The guy who's spending proposals would have made the 2006 Republicans look like spend-thrifts?

The guy who was so delusional that he claimed to have taken "the initiative in creating the Internet"?

The guy who refused to count the votes of some of our military?

The guy who took Red Chinese money for the Clintons?

The guy who fabricated dozens of lies about global warming and put them in a film and called it a "documentary"?

That guy?


Just checking if we were talking about the same person ;-)

President Bush is right
to appeal to the decent majority of American Muslims. I don't think that the fertile ground of Islamism is material poverty so much as a spiritual poverty that promotes the resentful aspects of their faith. Demonstrating to Muslims that Christians really have the capacity to reach out to them in the spirit of Christ is the powerful thing we can do.

(While Bush receives the knee-jerk reaction of Democrats just because he is Bush, his argument that there should be a way to integrate illegal residents into our polity represents by no means a minority position. I think that the main political weakness of Bush's position was that he should have first bought the reluctant support of the Right by sealing the borders and indicating that existing laws will be enforced.)

While I imagine that President Bush would hoop and holler if all Muslims converted to Christianity in a massive Internet Billy Graham-style revival, he is realistic enough to know that Islam is here to stay for the forseeable future. Peace depends on isolating the butchers from the peaceable, making the butchers pay for their crimes, and rewarding the peaceable with genuine offers of peace - not a clash of civilizations.

akagi
Akagi have you ever been to a Christian Church? I have found that people who bash Christians have never been to a Christian Church, pick your denomination. About the proof, go to mass and find out, unless you are afraid. If you are afraid do not worry, Jesus Loves you. At the end of mass pick up one of the many Church publications and read it.

100%
Beeblebrox:

Please give us some examples of this 100% and make sure there is evidence outside the faith to back up these claims and the predictions must be specific--just because the Bible says "city X was destroyed and it was isn't proof of anything.

I can tell you today, that Taiwan will be hit by a powerful Typhoon. That doesn't make me a true god for telling you this when it happens.

Again, the stuff in the Bible especially in the O.T. are no less silly than what the Mormons believe (giant gold tablets and such) or anyone else for that matter (e.g. the Prophet flying off on a white horse into heaven).

Yes, you can believe your "god" is the one true god, but that makes it about as valid as who you think will win the Red Sox series.

Oh--if I correctly predict the ALCS and NLCS and the WS in the exact number of games, will that make me the one true god too?

I mean my prediction will be 100% accurate. Is that all it takes to be a god these days?


Here we go again
Paolo writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:49

"There is no crime Muslims have committed that has not also been done by Christians and Jews in their long and often sordid histories."

Everywhere I go it's the same mantra chanted. I'm pretty much tired of saying this, so I'm going to state it plainly.

First of all, Christianity does not teach or command violence toward unbelievers. Is so, show me where? (I'll be waiting a long time since it does not exist.) In contrast, Islam does.

Second there are no Christians doing suicide bombings, beheadings or anything else that we see Muslims doing regularly in the news.

And please don't drag out the McVeigh argument. Where did he ever claim any religious motivation for his actions, much less Christian motivations? That is nonsense.

Your comparison is invalid. It's based on nothing. There is absolutely nothing to back up your statement, only the usual hatred I see toward Christians and Christianity in general.

The good thing is that you're free to keep making your baseless accusations. The most you'll get is someone refuting your points. But there will be no Christians hurting you or making any sort of threats against you.

That complete difference speaks for itself.

Here we go again.
Paolo writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 12:49

"There is no crime Muslims have committed that has not also been done by Christians and Jews in their long and often sordid histories."

Everywhere I go it's the same mantra. I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'm going to state it plainly.

First of all, Christianity does not teach or command violence toward unbelievers. Is so, show me where? (I'll be waiting a long time since it does not exist.) In contrast, Islam does.

Second there are no Christians doing suicide bombings, beheadings or anything else that we see Muslims doing regularly in the news.

And please don't drag out the McVeigh argument. Where did he ever claim any religious motivation for his actions, much less Christian motivations? That is nonsense.

Your comparison is invalid. It's based on nothing. There is absolutely nothing to back up your statement, only the usual hatred I see toward Christians and Christianity in general.

The good thing is that you're free to keep making your baseless accusations. The most you'll get is someone refuting your points. But there will be no Christians hurting you or making any sort of threats against you.

That complete difference speaks for itself.

The Moon god
The fact that Islam may be syncretistic does not prove that the God of Abraham had nothing to do with its inspiration.

I am not a Christian
Why should I? I am not of that faith. Be like me asking you to go and worship at a Shinto shrine or something.

And how am I bashing Christians?

If I point out that stories as told in both the O.T. and N.T. are as silly as what the Mormons and Muslims believe (both who are often "crucified" by Christians for their beliefs), that is not bashing anyone, that is pointing out basically the truth--that basically all our faiths are fairy tales and you believe them or not. Yours is no more valid than my own. Yours may indeed be the truth or maybe mine is and maybe we are both wrong. For all we know the one true god is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://www.venganza.org/





The Army of God
Which was a one man group by the name of Eric Rudolph who bombed the 1996 Olympics and two abortion clinics. There was then the crazies that put up the Nuremberg files website. There was there was a number of killings of abortiong doctors and bombings, etc.

Now, the numbers of crazies in Islam far out weigh those in the Christian faith, but both have their nut cases.

akagi
I'm sorry. You missed my point. I did not suggest you worship. I just said go there before you comment. I did not mean to offend you.
If your faith is strong in whatever you believe in you should have no trouble. Yes, I would go to a Shinto temple before I comment. I made no comments on other peoples faith, only the one I have experience with.

Notion we must "go there"
The idea we must have gone somewhere before we can understand is absurd. We understand how the Sun works pretty well, but if we go there we die. Now, this analogy can be continued to most middle eastern countries. In fact, we should care very little for understanding the Muslims, just kill as many as necessary to stop the threat to our existence.

for religiouslib
religiouslib writes: "I also find it interesting that conservative Christians who support romney support a religion which makes the claim that Jesus Christ appeared in person to joseph smith in ohio in the 1800's."

The Mormons go further, though. They make HISTORICAL claims which can be tested. Such as the idea that Jesus preached to the Native Americans and that there was this tribe in North America descended from the original Israelites. (At least that's what I think I read in the Book of Mormon.)

Now there isn't the slightest archaeological evidence for any of that.

Whereas there is a great deal of archaeological evidence for events in the Christian Bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls, for example. Also, we have a lot of archaeological artifacts recovered from the ancient Hebrews who lived in the Levant. But absolutely no comparable artifacts from North America.

Finally, DNA testing has failed to find anyone in North America who can trace their genetic lineage back to these supposed followers of Christ who supposedly lived in North America 2,000 years ago.

And as for Islam, there is a lot of historical evidence that the prophet Mohammed actually existed too.

It's Mormonism for which archaeological evidence is sorely lacking.


A movie I wish they would produce
Indiana Jones in "Raiders of the Golden Plates":

In this sequel to the Indiana Jones movies, swashbuckling archaeologist Indiana Jones goes after the legendary Lost Golden Plates of Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism.

In the climactic scene of the movie, Indiana Jones finds the Golden Plates buried under a Speed Limit sign on the New York State Thruway in upper New York State. Fighting off state troopers who think he's a terrorist, and dodging 18-wheelers all the way, Indiana Jones recovers the Golden Plates and returns them to Governor Mitt Romney.

Then why
PeterE writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 6:43 PM
The Moon god
The fact that Islam may be syncretistic does not prove that the God of Abraham had nothing to do with its inspiration.
------------

Did the Lord get angry at Israel over the Golden Calf?
He could have sent Moses down for some bartering and use relativism

If there is no such a thing as the right God, or the right faith, why bother with differences?

Or worry about using Syncretism or relativism.

Nothing is true, nothing is false anyway


Are you honestly seeking, Akagi?
I'm going to assume you are being truthful in your question about proof positive so I will give you just two examples that would be IMPOSSIBLE to predict without supernatural inspiration.

The First Coming.

1. Daniel 9:25
"...from the going forth of the command [edict of Artaxerxes] to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince [presentation as Messiah to the Jews], There shall be sixty nine weeks [of years or 173,880 days].

Jesus (and ONLY Jesus) presented himself to the Jews as Messiah on, what we call, Palm Sunday. Interestingly enough, there are a slew of other prophetic reasons that THIS PARTICULAR Sunday HAD to be the day the Messiah was revealed but that is a complicated (but fascinating) issue to explain.

The rebirth of Israel.

Actually there are at least 10 major Biblical prophesies regarding the rebirth of Israel but the most impressive is the prediction of the exact date of both the birth of Israel and the retaking of Jerusalem by the Jews.

Ezekiel 4 predicts Israel's "servitude" wherein they would be without a country for 2,483.8 years. The Jews lost their sovereignty in 606 B.C. with the Babylonian takeover and didn't regain it until the servitude of the nation ended on May 14, 1948 when Israel again became a nation. A summary of the math of how this prophesy was fulfilled can be found athttp://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm. Look for prophesy #6.

Of course, there are over 300 prophesies in the Old Testament regarding Jesus Christ's first coming including his death and resurrection. There is simply no way any human could have predicted those and no single man could have fulfilled them by accident.



It's been a treat
I must commend all of you who know your scripture. It's been a treat to be among so many
who know the Lord.
Loved your posts Talent Scout.
I just dug out an old book that seems as current today as when it was published in 1994, When Nations Die, by Jim Nelson Black. He writes of the 10 signs of decline and if it were true about
our country 13 years ago, it's more so today.
We can blame our problems on politicians, on bureaucrats, big corporations and on and on but when it gets right down to it..it's our fault.
I believe our problems are God's warning to shape up, but He will be patient just so long.
Perhaps President Bush was chosen by God to
bring us to our knees to seek His help to restore
sanity and morality to this country.
We can't judge the heart, but the Bible also says, by their fruits ye shall know them. What are the fruits of this president?
If what he's done regarding Islam and the illegals is because he's got an upside down
inside out vision of what a Christian is, it's fine, and between him and God. However when he
interprets that to mean he must change the face
of our culture to show the compassion of a Christian then he's out of line. He swore a sacred oath on the Bible to defend and uphold the Constitution, nothing else.
If he's born again as he claims, then he should
know the difference between Christianity and Islam is THE CROSS.


Fuzzy
Fuzzy writes: Tuesday, October, 09, 2007 5:47 PM
Remember-
You don't get a do-over. Its gotta be really important for you to commit sin and say "whatever" to any possible consequences. Especially when being wrong could mean you have endangered the lives of ones you love. Could any choice be more arrogant? More disrespectful? Less caring? Do you really want to convince other people you care about that God does not exist when you can never be sure yourself?

Rather, look to the God that loved you so much he sacrificed his son for you. He did it knowing some of you would gladly spit in his face and despise his name. Look to the creator that gives the most vile among us a chance for redemption and gives hope to all who live. The very soldiers who mocked his son and stabbed him - God would rather they believed on Jesus and spent eternity in paradise instead of sending them to H*ll, condemned by their own decisions.

If we were in his place, would we do the same? You know the answer already. We are not God. Nor are we worthy to judge him.

He gives freely to those who ask and offers paradise for all eternity. Your life on Earth is the briefest moment of your existence. Whether you believe in Christ or not, your happiness in life here is not fulfilled by going your own way and always wondering if you caused a loved one to go into damnation. You don't really want to live with that. Do you? I hope not.

Foxfire:

Good comment, I agree

Is Allah the same God?
Some etymology on God.
As I understand it, the word that ancient Israel had for God was El, or Elohim.
He also had a name, of which the consonants are something like YHWH.
The Greek word for god is Theos, the Latin; Dei.
When Christians arrived in northern Europe they found that the name for the god that resembled the one they were describing was Got, and so that is the word we use in today's English.
Someone got the bright idea of putting the vowell sounds of the Hebrew word for lord(adonas) into the consonants of the Hebrew name for God and in the German language it became Jehovah.

If it is possible to use the name of a different god as your word for God, then you should be able to use another name from another culture, with a different history, for the same God. Consequently it seems pointless to try to argue about the history of the word Allah in this context. The relevant point should be are there sufficient similarities in the concepts of God to say that they are referring to the same Person?


How about some criteria?
In a world of over 6 billion people, (and historically more than that)there could very well be billions of different ideas of what and who God is, ranging from the pantheistic and polytheistic to the monotheistic, deistic and atheistic. Where do you draw the line in saying this is a different God from this other one? The task must necessarily be subjective and dependent upon the context. If you are talking about the being that created everything and requires that people live their lives according to His will then it is legitimate to say that Bush is correct.

Should we look for common ground?
Bush has chosen to engage Muslims(at least the ones he is not making war upon) by trying to find some common ground. It is hard to fault him for the effort.

For Aurorawatcher
If you are stll paying attention:
I believe the definition of a Fundamentalist Christian is someone who someone who subscribes to the tenets of Fundamentalism as defined by those who identify with the term. No disrespect is intended. Nor am I calling them extreme. Generally included in these tenets is the belief that the Bible is inerrent in the origianal manuscripts (a doctrine not found in the Bible incidentally)
My understanding of the word Evangelical is that it describes those who believe in activally spreading the Gospel. So many Fundamentalists would be Evangelicals but not all, since evangelicallism does not depend on inerrency.
Tony Campolo (thought by many to be a liberal) has a book out describing evangelicals which is entitled "Letters to a young Evangelical" or something like that. Belief in inerrancy is not required to be an evangelical.

"internationalist" embraces Universalism
In my opinion, El Presidente is a Fraud and a Traitor of American, who has caused irreperable damage to this entire country. How is it that he is allowed to continue selling us out to Mexico, Iraq, China and the UN, etc?? He has even sided with the World Court against the Texas judicial system, to prevent the lawful conviction process (death panalty) of Mexican Illegal guilty of a heinous murder-rape of two 14 year old Tx girls!
Apparently, our globalist President has still learned nothing about the true nature of Islam and their false, militant religion since 2003 when he first made those foolish and deceiving statements that "Islam is a religion of peace" and that "we worship the same God". He is either still ignorant, and/or he is lying. I don't care who he is or how many times he attends whatever (secular) church,,he obviously has big theological-spiritual issues..

Bush makes Romney look Evangelical
I never thought I would say it..but Bush even makes Clinton look good..

Off-subject but can't let this go

Beeblebrox wrote:
"A mormon who does good works all his life but does not accept Jesus as his EXCLUSIVE Lord and savior, will not, according to Jesus, go to heaven."

I do not know any Mormons who do not accept Jesus Christ as their exlusive Lord and Savior. All Mormons believe that we will fall short, regardless of how much good we do and that we require the grace offered through Christ's atonement to make up the difference.
----------------
SteveL wrote:
"Such as the idea that Jesus preached to the Native Americans and that there was this tribe in North America descended from the original Israelites. (At least that's what I think I read in the Book of Mormon.)"

No, you did not read that in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon does not identify North America as the location of the arrival of Lehi's family. For at least the last 20 yrs, subject matter experts have identified Meso-America as the most likely place of settlement.

Your DNA argument is also based on inadequate understanding. Subject matter scholars have argued for at least the last 20 yrs (and the Book of Mormon states) that there were existing inhabitants when the Israelite families arrived. These scholars argue that intermingling with these people must have taken place to explain the apparent rapid growth of the Lamanite people described in the Book of Mormon. All DNA arguments fall apart under these assumptions.

I do not think that this is the proper forum to continue these arguments but there are plenty elsewhere on the web.



Dixie
That's exactly what I said to my husband this evening after if read Cal's piece.
i think we all have a feeliing of foreboding regarding our countries future, we've been let down by someone who asked for our trust and prayers. It's that betrayal of trust that's been the most damaging, because I know I have lost any confidence in those we elect, in whatever position.

@M_from_Idaho
You say:

"Consequently it seems pointless to try to argue about the history of the word Allah in this context."

It seems pointless to you.

The reality is, we KNOW that Allah was a pagan moon god and Mohammed wrapped his theological invention "Islam", around that moon god. How is that not relevant to a discussion on whether Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians?

Allah and the God of the Bible have NOTHING in common. Allah is capricious, YHWH is forgiving and merciful. Allah is unknowable and distant, YHWH is close and personal. Allah offers no proof of his existence, YHWH provides us with His Word in which he demonstrates that he is real in tangible and demonstrable ways. Allah offers no free offer of salvation to all, YHWH provides salvation through the acceptance of His son, Jesus Christ.

Bottom line, people who claim that there is no difference between the gods of each religion have not taken the time to study the differences. As I've already demonstrated, the God of the Bible has given us plain evidence as to his existence. To ignore this reality is, IMHO, to place one's future in jeopardy.

Over 40 years of study
Has given me a different view.


-----
GW Bush
"I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God."



M_from_Idaho writes: 8:25 PM
Is Allah the same God?
If it is possible to use the name of a different god as your word for God, then you should be able to use another name from another culture, with a different history, for the same God....

M_from_Idaho writes: 2007 8:38 PM
How about some criteria?
Where do you draw the line in saying this is a different God from this other one? .... it is legitimate to say that Bush is correct.
-------------------

ts:

Isn't that like saying every man named Steve is the same person?

What made one group of people worship (in the old world) the goddess Diana and another the god Molech? Baal? or the thousands of others?
All of them called god by those people.

God is a generic word and does not describe which god one speaks of, which is only identified by that gods attributes.

As a believer in Jesus Christ and the New Testament, this subject has been covered by chosen men of God to explain it to me.




1Co 10:20 -
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.


I can read for myself the attributes of Jesus Christ who pointed to the Father as God. The God of Israel
Who identified Jerusalem as the City of God (not mecca)

AND
I can read for myself the attributes of mohammed who pointed to allah, his god, and who has no son.

I see a huge gap between both Jesus Christ and mohammed, and the God and Father of Jesus Christ and allah.

And the god Thor
The god Nortia and I offer you the hundreds of old world "gods".

table of gods and goddesses of the indigenous Latin religion
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_gregory_gods. htm

I also am encouraged
Reading how many of you understand to do as Paul said to do, and ignore GW Bush.

"Stand fast in the Faith"
The Lord, One Faith, One Baptism
------------------
Tea Party writes: 8:08 PM
It's been a treat
I must commend all of you who know your scripture. It's been a treat to be among so many
who know the Lord.
Loved your posts Talent Scout.

Ruth
Do you know what Elohim means in Hebrew?

And how is it God speaks of creating things in their own imagine, and God created man in his, but where not like God because?

What did he mean? And how could he be a he if he's just a nothing entity? And I have no interest in non-bible beliefs for answers.
Did Jesus pray to himself? Seems redundant.

Mormons eh, well, the ones I've known live the first two great commandment of the new testament, better then I ever seen the born again's,(not all) live.
Could be the hatred the born again's have for Mormon's, hard to love your fellow man, and hate a group of people that try to live a Christ centered life, and one more thing. If I was ever in a natural disaster, I pray it's the Mormons who show up first, they're amazing!

Remember the good Samaritan, who do you think the Mormons would be, and who do you think the religious people were that past by, and hated the man?

Me, I'm a good Lutheran, who may pass by, hopefully not, but I have.

Yep
>If I was ever in a natural disaster, I pray it's the Mormons who show up first, they're amazing!

And what's really amazing is that Mormons don't have gregarious TV shows trumpeting all the great works they do.

May be off topic but...
I don't want to turn this from a discussion of Islam to Mormonism but as a Christian, I am not going to stand by and let Mormons claim that LDS doctrine is a Christian doctrine. IT IS NOT.

This does not mean that it is impossible for Mormons to be Christians. If they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their only personal savior and repent from their previous life of sin, then Christ says they will be with Him in eternity.

Nevertheless, Mormon doctrine, as found in its main LDS theological writings (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) are clearly and OBVIOUSLY not the original Word of God. The original text of the Book of Mormon is in English (some of it in 16th century King James English - mistranslations and all) for goodness sake!

True, this is not the place to debate Mormonism vs. Christianity but when Mormons start attacking the my faith by claiming that their writings are "another testament of Jesus Christ", I deem that as an attack worth defending against.

I won't change any Mormon minds on this matter, and I appreciate you all for your great character and devotion to doing good, this must be said:

The Apostle Paul stated clearly in his letter to the Galations:

"if any man preach any other gospel to you than that what you have already received, let him be accursed."

The 1st century Galations obviously did not receive the Book of Mormon (which was written around 1829). Paul clearly states that anyone who preaches a gospel different than the one the Galations already had received would be "accursed". Paul's words, not mine.



I agree, again
"The 1st century Galations obviously did not receive the Book of Mormon (which was written around 1829). Paul clearly states that anyone who preaches a gospel different than the one the Galations already had received would be "accursed". Paul's words, not mine."
--------

It was Joseph Smith who excluded all others as "true" Christians, and only he that held the priesthood.

Fulfilling the words of Jesus Christ about false prophets.

Speaking of himself, just like the false prophet mohammed did as well.

May be off topic but...
I don't want to turn this from a discussion of Islam to Mormonism but as a Christian, I view the Mormon doctrinal writings as apocryphal and therefore, not the Word of God.

This does not mean that it is impossible for Mormons to be Christians. Just like anyone else (including GW) If they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their one and only personal savior and repent from their previous life of sin, then Christ says they will be with Him in eternity.

Nevertheless, Mormon doctrine, as found in its main LDS theological writings (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) are clearly and OBVIOUSLY not the original Word of God. The original text of the Book of Mormon is in English (some of it in 16th century King James English - mistranslations and all) for goodness sake!

I doubt I'll change any Mormon minds on this matter, and while I appreciate you all for your great character and devotion to doing good, this must be said:

The Apostle Paul stated clearly in his letter to the Galations:

"if any man preach any other gospel to you than that what you have already received, let him be accursed."

The 1st century Galations obviously did not receive the Book of Mormon (which was written around 1829). Paul clearly states that anyone who preaches a gospel different than the one the Galations already had received would be "accursed". Paul's words, not mine.

Paul spent his latter life reaching out to people like Mormons. As the first great Christian missionary, he had nothing but love for those who believed in "another" gospel. His problem was with those who taught that gospel.



Tossed Like A Wave
GW is obviously being tossed to and fro like a wave, as described in the New Testament. The God I believe in says vengeance is His job, and that governments are to be obeyed, unless they go against His law. Consequently, His vengeance is often deployed through governments. This is not to say all governments have His blessing. Many governments go against His law. What I am getting at is we as people cannot decide someone should die and personally go blow ourself up close to them so they are also killed, especially when that means others are killed as well. Anyone who believes that is okay does not know the God I know. He says to love our enemy. Love does not mean to kiss their you Know what, as GW did again, this time to the Muslims. The Muslim's God says to kill their enemy, personally. That is directly against what I believe. My God says to live in peace with all. Sometimes that requires a country to go to war with another country, that is determined to do unpeaceful things, like the things being taught in many Mosques in America, as well as the rest of the world. I would love to continue, but I gotta go throw up.

Talent Scout
Did they tell you that while you were hanging out with them or did you read that from your original copy bible? I know it’s comfortable to think that Catholics just make things up, but the truth is that no other religion spends more time and scholarship studying scripture and contemplating the meaning. Time and space constraints make in-depth discussion impossible. I feel that much effort is devoted to denigrating Islam and Allah so we can more easily rationalize the evil being done in their name.

Beeblebrox: Your proof is circumstantial. I know that when we say “the Pope says so” that we are not offering much in the way of support. But, what you’re failing to take in account is the time frame and the fact that our pagan heritage dies very slowly. More often it is absorbed. There are many accounts of pagan temples being used even in the Christian era by Christians. That does not make them pagans. Consider when you drag the Christmas tree into you house and decorate it. Otherwise, I think Jack Chick first proposed this theory in the 70’s. Of course, he’s probably popular with some folks, but his real job is snake oil sales.

Who? What are you talking of?
MikeR writes: 11:19 AM
Talent Scout
Did they tell you that while you were hanging out with them or did you read that from your original copy bible?
----------------------------
ts:
Not sure who you are referring to as "they" MikeR.
And asking me if I was hanging out seems to be coming from some superior smugness.

Unnecessary for decent communications Mike.
I do not "hang" out with anyone to belay your concerns though.

-------------

MikeR writes:
I know it’s comfortable to think that Catholics just make things up,

--------
ts:
Yeah?
For who Mike?
You I guess, cause that is the only person you are allowed to speak for.
You certainly will not be allowed to speak for me.
----------------------



MikeR writes:

but the truth is that no other religion spends more time and scholarship studying scripture and contemplating the meaning. Time and space constraints make in-depth discussion impossible.

----------------
ts:
Dear Mike
To make such a judgment one would have to know every detail of every person on the earth in every single minute of their days and nights.
I sincerely believe you are making a judgment that is so far out of your small little world to know, its childish.

----------------


Mike R writes:

I feel that much effort is devoted to denigrating Islam and Allah so we can more easily rationalize the evil being done in their name.
------------------
ts:
islam began with evil
I suggest you read about the founder of islam.
For me this has been done, thoroughly.
mohammed broke every single Commandment of God given to Moses.
He also fought against every single Commandment of Jesus Christ.
So I am very comfortable in calliing him a false prophet.
But you can choose to accept him if you like, its a God given right.

mohammed the false prophet
Part#1



Who comes in his own name and defies the Laws of God and the Commandments of Jesus Christ.

mohammed broke every single Law of God given to the Man of God Moses.
Thou shall not kill
Thous shalt not steal

'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

And never preached Jesus Christ.

The Commandments of Jesus Christ were all ignored by this devil possessed man, mohammed.
The man was inspired of satan, not the Lord.

Jesus Himself told us how to recognize the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of error.


Joh 16:13 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come


The Spirit of TRUTH will POINT ALL MEN to Jesus Christ.
The spirit of error and false prophets will point all men to themselves as being the "chosen of God"
Just like mohammed did and the many other false prophets since Jesus Christ warned was to come AFTER.


mohammed the false prophet
Part #2

mohammed came 600 years after Jesus Christ preaching a new religion, and is CURSED OF GOD.

I do believe MikeR, you and the Catholics who believe as you do need to study more about false prophets.

Mt 11:13 -
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.



All the prophets of God give recognition to the Saviour, Jesus Christ, not himself as mohammed did and is a liar who rejected Jesus Christ.

Ac 10:43 -
To him (JESUS CHRIST)give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

And GOD has declared this:

The King James Version (Authorized)

HEBREWS 1 -

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

All prophets of GOD point all men to Jesus Christ.
All false prophets point men to themselves.


MikeR et al
A fair point you make about God versus man's representation thereof. How about this? The representation that Muslims worship is nothing like what I understand God to be (save the idea that Allah is the creator of the universe), so much so that it seems to me that they worship a different (thus nonexistent or at least non-divine) being. That Muslims worship the God that I do is not, so far as I know, a doctrine of faith so much as it is a comment intended to prevent unjust discrimination against Muslims (and Jews, and protestants for that matter). You can be a good Catholic and not accept that premise. Unlike the Real Presense of Christ in the Eucharist or something like that.

To everyonesfacts:

Christians aren't polytheistic at all. Any mentions of a Muslim god (small "g") assume that it is a false god. Sort of like saying some Ancient Greeks worshiped Zeus. Stating that fact does not imply that Zeus is anything but a statue that was destroyed hundreds of years ago.

This is for all of you
who think that Christian persecution stopped in the middle ages: do some research on the Russian Christians who invaded Anatolia and Balkan countries to cleanse those places of Muslims and replace them with Christians. It is a collection of historical and first hand accounts that will keep you awake at night, and beside which the Jewish holacaust pales in comparison. The Armenians, who were also largely Christian, joined them and after butchering and torturing every man, woman and child they could find, grabbed their homes and their farms for their own use.

Please don't tell me that they weren't really Christians because they did things your local parish wouldn't do. Under the right circumstances, people will do anything, and if they can contrive a religious rationale for such behavior they are capable of even worse.

errate
"Christian persecution" should probably be changed to persecution by Christians"

Talent Scout
My My, well let us be smug then, unless you’ve claimed that for your own personal use. Otherwise when you claim “The Apostle's John, Peter and Paul didn't, neither do I They are very clear on this matter in all writings of the New Testament” I wondered sarcastically if you spoke with them or had an original Bible because it is impossible to make so certain an interpretation given the loose data provided. (Catholics are not Bible literalists because they know how much it’s been edited) And perhaps it makes you uncomfortable to think we make things up, but it is an article of faith on what we believe about Islam. If by chance you don’t believe we just make things up, then you are basically contradicting yourself.

Talent Scout
continued

As for my claim, it is perfectly legitimate. One of the religions has studied scripture more than the others. Who do you think it has been. The Anglican Church of England, The United Methodist Church? I don’t see why I would possibly “have to know every detail of every person on the earth in every single minute of their days and nights” to make such a judgment. You should be able to do it based on the amount of time, number of institutions and amount or recourses committed to at least make estimation. Perhaps your world is much more vast than mine since you speak with such absolute authority about the nature of God.

Did you know that there are some people who want to change the name of schools named after Washington and Jefferson because they were slave holders. And Jefferson had sex with a 14 year old slave. Today we say that slavery is evil and that an adult who has sex with a 14 year old is a pedophile. I suggest you read a book about Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence. For me, this has been done thoroughly. Then, when you acknowledge that Jefferson was an evil, slaver, pedophile, I’ll take your claim seriously.

Otherwise, I am hesitant to judge people from other times and cultures by our standards.
I’m sorry you don’t hang out with anyone. Some of the best times of my life have been hanging out with friends and family. Some of the best theological discussions I’ve ever had have been while hanging out with acquaintances at monasteries.



Happy Jake said
"The representation that Muslims worship is nothing like what I understand God to be"

Jake, that's the point: everybeliever has their own understanding of what or whom they think God is - bibles and torahs and sutras and korans notwithstanding. You can no more ascribe specific characteristics to another religion's deity than you can to your own.

I just found this
on another thread, and I think it goes to the debate about how religion, including Christianity, can (and has) influence(d) evil and subhuman acts:

a poster wrote:

After 9/11, torture is justified because it's a means of self-defense. God condones self-defense.

(ergo, God condones torture).

Then we part
Ways MikeR.

---------

MikeR writes: 3:58 PM
Talent Scout
My My, well let us be smug then, unless you’ve claimed that for your own personal use. Otherwise when you claim “The Apostle's John, Peter and Paul didn't, neither do I They are very clear on this matter in all writings of the New Testament” I wondered sarcastically if you spoke with them or had an original Bible because it is impossible to make so certain an interpretation given the loose data provided.
------------------
ts:
This is as simple as this Mike.
It comes down to believing the bible as it is, or you.
Guess who I choose?
---------------





MikeR writes:
(Catholics are not Bible literalists because they know how much it’s been edited) And perhaps it makes you uncomfortable to think we make things up, but it is an article of faith on what we believe about Islam. If by chance you don’t believe we just make things up, then you are basically contradicting yourself.
-------

ts:
But when you edit it, its fine?
Too silly to argue.
Have at it, you and your friends hold no power with me, or God.
No use addressing your other remarks, nothing worth a comment really.

Talent Scout
while others may praise your perspicasity, I notice that have not answered my points directly, instead you go off topic rhetorically, assuming that you know what I driving at. You never got my point, so you rhetoric misses the boat. Try to argue the point, not what you imagine is in my head.

touj.
Many, if not most, people who call themselves Christians do not do the things Jesus requires of His followers. It was predicted to be that way in the Bible, and is very sad, because eternity is a long, long, long time. It does not say anywhere in the Bible for the Russian 'Christians' to invade and ethnically cleanse the Balkans. The things that happened in Yugoslavia were definitely not the actions of Christians, no matter what they called themselves. As a matter of fact, after thinking about it, I need to go throw up.