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Tuesday, July 03, 2007
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Patriotism
by Cal Thomas
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Washington, Indiana - It's a long way from Washington, D.C., to Washington, Ind., where my father was born a century ago next January and where I am attending a Thomas family reunion. On the drive from Indianapolis, one passes towns that could fill a Norman Rockwell album. My favorite is named Freedom because, though the town has only a single flashing caution light, it displays many flags. If I don't slow down, I will miss both.

Driving past miles of cornfields, listening to local radio stations that still play music, not syndicated political talk, and carry commercials for farm equipment and feed, I ponder what it means to be patriotic and to love America.

Last week, senator and Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said that religion is not the exclusive property of conservative Christians. He is right. Neither is patriotism a trademark of the Republican Party.

As with religion, some people on the right have used patriotism, which should be a unifying theme, to divide Americans. My liberal friends love America as much as I do. They might disagree on some, or all, of my political and religious beliefs, but that does not make them less in love with America, much less un-American.

Many political and religious liberals have family members who have served or are serving their country in war and in peace. These have spilled their blood and given their lives to guarantee our freedom to disagree and to still live together.

Here in this Washington, I am told stories of how our family stuck together, neighbor helping neighbor, during the Great Depression; of a grandfather who was out of work at the B and O Railroad for two years; of employees with more seniority than he who took a day off so he could work and earn some money; of one of his sons (my uncle) who had a paper route and would bring home eggs donated by subscribers.

Few here judged their neighbor's worth based on his or her political or religious beliefs. They helped each other. This was the real America. When the "boys" went off to war, they had total support from family, friends, neighbors and all they left behind and for whose benefit they fought. When those who survived came home, some voted for Democrats and some for Republicans, but no one questioned their patriotism because of their electoral or religious choices.

Last year, I visited Normandy, France for the first time. At the American cemetery, there is not an "R" (for Republican) or "D" (for Democrat) on the grave markers of those who died on D-Day.

The 2008 presidential candidates and their supporters should be asked not to question the patriotism of their opponents. Surely most of us prefer debate and discussion of the issues that confront us to a litmus test about whose blood runs more red, white and blue.

Leaders of many nations, including America, have used patriotism to persuade citizens of policies that are not always in their country's best interests. Hitler's deputy, Herman Goering, cynically observed: "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

And still we love America for opportunities that do not exist in such proportion in any other nation. A person who criticizes a particular policy does not necessarily love his country less than one who supports that policy. G.K. Chesterton said, "'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"

After 231 years, we still try to make wrong into right and cheer the right and the nation that makes change possible when we succeed. That's patriotism.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Cal, Cal, Cal
Most of the time I can agree whole-heartedly with you but in this case, you are being way too generous with liberals on the subject of patriotism. Perhaps there are those who, through ignorance become the fellow traveling useful idiots, one might grant some measure of indulgence in this regard, there are too many elite leftists such as Ruth Bader Ginsburg who swear an oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, and then act and make decisions indicating any point of reference is more important than this document. Is this patriotism?

Liberals don't play by the rules they don't like from fraudulently disenfranchising the voters they don't like, to getting one of their like minded judicial buddies to overturn or disregard popular laws (plebiscites, prop, etc.) clearly derived from the will of the people. Is this patriotism?

And, in a time of nation emergency and war, they do everything to undermine the effort, our soldiers and while giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Is this patriotism?

And then there are those lib/leftists in gov't who use law enforcement as an agenda driven weapon applied selectively to destroy their political enemies. Is this patriotism?

And then there are those in Hollywood who wouldn't think of let alone produce a movie that supports our troops, our traditions and our heritage but rather constantly spew degenerate filth through cinematic propaganda. And this too is patriotism?

Give me a break, Cal - you deserve credit for your attempt at political reconciliation but, albeit their protestations to the contrary, giving the hard core leftists the benefit of the doubt doesn't make their patriotism a fact.

You aren't going to get many checks for this column.

And Cal...
...as you can see, when the degenerate, the corrupt, the seditious and the treasonous are confronted with their lack of such, they're the first to vociferously squawk their indignination at any such suggestion that they lack patriotism.

Yes they have allegiance: to something they're trying to create, not to something that has or currently exists that they're trying their damdest to destroy.

As Sam Johnson said, the last refuge of the scoundrel is patriotism.

Patriotism for boomers
This is a heartbreaking article. Look at what we have lost as the boomer generation sees its (our) own mortality.

First point: We can't pass on liberal "legacies":
- atheism because it's cool to reject God,
- kill kids because it's convenient,
- kill old people because it's convenient,
- shabby personal leadership (Clintons are the example of poor character),
- new age and other forms of silliness.

These "legacies" are not permanent, although atheism seems to attract some proportion of every generation. The others will die of their own pathologies.

Second point: Cal and I grew up in a country where sticking together and helping each other was our heritage, but we blew it. I do not expect help from neighbors today. They know my name, but they don't know my character; they are guessing because I have moved many times, and I will move again. I am similarly guessing about their character.

I grew up in a family of democrats, but today Republicans are closer to our heritage. They (Repubs) can win every election for a long time to come if they run on this simple point. RINOs will blow it. The real conservatives will win anytime they run as conservatives.

Wanna know why? Because the USA is unique in the past 300 years: we have something worth conserving! We have done more to correct our errors than any other nation. All nations are rightly ashamed of parts of their heritage, but we lead the world in self-criticism and self-correction... and the simple idea that I can help to make things better for all.

Third point: I am sick of liberals desperately trying to make us lose the war. They will lose their credibility when we win. They would lose their lives if we were to lose. Sharia law would greatly reduce the population of libs, I think.

Finally, Cal -- you are a great man, keep it up.


Acetate, Acetate, Acetate
Believing that we should preemptively NUKE a sovereign nation who has not attacked our country, is not only un-American, it is not conservative, or Christian, and certainly is not patriotic. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is the Republicans that are pushing this, is it not?

How about that amnesty bill that our President was pushing? How about that fence that he refuses to build? How about our borders and ports that he refuses to protect? How about that deal he signed with the EU to merge our economy with theirs? How about the coming huge land grab to build his NAFTA superhighway through the middle of our country? You call this BS, patriotic? There is a word for it, yes there is, but it certainly is not patriotism.


my 2 cents
You people just don't get it. You can't stop arguing with each other no matter what, and it's way past pathetic.

Can you just STFU for ONE day?

What Patriotism means to me
Patriotism is a feeling, not an ideology.

Patriotism is loving your country, with a swelling in your heart, that tingle you feel when you see a street lined with American flags on all the lamp posts, or when, following 9/11, half the cars in my neighborhood sported flags waving from their windows.

Patriotism is when you see an American athlete on the dias at the Olympics, and they sing along with the national anthem, with tears rolling down their faces, eyes shining. Patriotism is when I spontaneously sing along with them, a world away on my sofa, with the same misty eyes and the same damp cheeks.

Patriotism is when I want my team to win. If we are at war, I believe it is the time to get behind the troops and the President.

Patriotism is when I instinctively know that I should keep national secrets, and not relish the things that tear my country down.

Patriotism is when I am outraged at the burning of my flag, the littering of America's highways and the disrespect of her laws.

Are the Democrats patriotic?

You tell me.

halo
Cal said just the opposit of what you said he said.
He didnot define differnces in the parties.
Learn to read & think,
Learn to read & think,
Write that on the blackboard 100 times!

nolongersilent - Thanks!
I only wish you could get such an ad past the NY Slimes editors!!!

Conservatives get it, Cal doesn't
I note with delight that the real conservatives on TH are not buying into Cal's Rodney King moment. Real conservatives know that no liberal or Democrat can be patriotic, that no liberal or Democrat has ever sacrificed his or her life for America, that no liberal or Democrat can be a Christian, and so on. Divisiveness is what ideology is all about. The Nazi legal theorist Carl Schmitt put it best when he wrote about the friend/foe principle as the key to politics. There can be neutrality in serious politics.

Only conservatives truly love America, as TH readers show abundantly. We liberals are the enemy, and real conservatives know what to do about an enemy.

Pathetic
One of the chief characteristics of fanaticism is a complete lack of empathy for others. It is so much easier to hate when you deny others their humanity. Mr. Thomas has tried to remind people of this danger, but will , of course, be rejected by those who are so wrapped up in their self-righteous hatred that they are almost parrots. Both sides have them, but that makes it no less sad. We're all Americans. We all love our country, although we have different ideas of how it should be. We're all human, even acetate. Please try to understand this.

War knows no party.
Anyone who has served in the military knows the truth of what Cal is saying. You may fight for your country, but you die for your friends, and there is no litmus test that differentiates the political persuasion of those that fight, and die. No one asks, or cares, about such things in the military. Those that insist otherwise have either never served, or have forgotten this simple truth. If Republicans were more patriotic than Democrats or Independents, 11% of the soldiers that were enlisted in the Army in 2006 would not have had felonies on their records, nor would we have had to extend the age of enlistment to 42. After all, 40% or so of all Americans identify themselves as Republicans, and this would have been more than ample to fill the ranks of what is currently the smallest army we have fielded since prior to WWII. People talk - but the reality by which people are ultimately judged is in their actions. We lack the forces we need to prevail in Iraq precisely because of this fact. We chose to substitute Iraqi forces for those the Army chiefs asked for in the beginning because we did not have our own. And still don't. WE wanted a short war, but got a long one, yet have never expanded our forces to take this into account. And we don't do this because neither Republicans or Democrats will voluntarily enlist in the numbers necessary. The success of the surge still depends upon Iraqi forces holding the ground we clear because we don't have the forces to do it ourselves. If the Iraqis cannot do so, then it will not, ultimately, be successful.

Uncle Max
Thank you.

That needed to be said.

Patriotism is:
Patriotism is supporting and defending your country, not telling our enemies that we have lost the war and are going to cut and run.

Patriotism is defending your country from invasion, not refusing to enforce the law and rewarding the invaders.

Sorry, but as I see it, patriotism is in short supply in Washington D.C.

liberty
Acetate, Acetate, Acetate
Believing that , we should preemptively NUKE a sovereign nation who has not attacked our country, is not only un-American, it is not conservative, or Christian, and certainly is not patriotic. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is the Republicans that are pushing this, is it not?

________________

Actually it's lifelong Democrat, the now very powerful Independent Joe Lieberman, who is the strongest proponent for attacking Iran.

He has even said he will support the Presidential candidate who is strongest on fighting terrorism and stopping Iran's nuclear weapons agenda.

Go figure. But then you'll say it's because he is Jewish and Iran has stated unequivocally that they intend to wipe Israel of the face of the earth. No lack of stated intention there is there?

nolongersilent/Mountain Rose
MR's 6:10 Post is as good a comment as I have seen for a fascist country. Keep quiet, follow orders and silence others. Exactly what country do you support?

Have a great 4th folks!

Eben
Your 9:23 posting was spot on target thank you!

Hal Donahue
I must have missed something.

Is there more than one 6:10 am post by Mountain Rose on this thread?

Hal
Dude, you don't even try anymore. I reread Rose's post and I again failed to see the, "follow orders and silence others" portion that you are complaining about.

Have you have realized you can't debate actual conservative beliefs, and now you just make up crap and then argue against your own words?

reply to hosekuervo
Re-read my last sentence so you can understand my post.

WayneS: LOL!
Hal Donahue writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 10:20 AM
nolongersilent/Mountain Rose
MR's 6:10 Post is as good a comment as I have seen for a fascist country. Keep quiet, follow orders and silence others. Exactly what country do you support?
Have a great 4th folks!
**************************************
WayneS writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 10:25 AM
Hal Donahue
I must have missed something.
Is there more than one 6:10 am post by Mountain Rose on this thread?
***************************************

Hi Wayne!

All Hal did is demonstrate my point.

The Left are instinctively unpatriotic, and are unable to control themselves in their loud proclammations which prove it.

Then, in their Orwellean way, try to dispell the notion that we just heard the unpatriotic statements that they just said.

"What me, unpatriotic?" they whine. "You are a meanie to notice!!!"

What UN-Patriotism is
UN-Patriotism is when you see the American Flag, and you jeer at the people who fly it, or worse, have the impulse to burn it.

UN-Patriotism is when your country is at war and you want your own side to lose.

UN-Patriotism is when you do everything you can to aid the Left into causing your own country to lose; doing such things as calling into talk programs and parroting talking points that you know d@mn well are lies.

UN-Patriotism is when you join the ugly, howling mob, trying to pull down anyone who is pro-American, repeating vicious and nasty lies about faithful public servants and demanding their heads.

UN-Patriotism is when you want our borders wide open, so that Leftist threats can walk casually across to undermine our way of life.

UN-Patriotism is when you have the bizarre desire to spend your time insulting nice, kind and gentle people who make this country a great place to live.

I can remember
as is Cal's point, when no matter how terribly two people disagreed, there was one over-riding factor. We were both Americans. Thanks to more factors than I care to list, that seems to be no-more. We had a glimpse of it in the days following 9/11, but it took way too little time for the profiting pundits of both sides to get that division going again.
No different than Jesse's need to exploit racism for his profit, we all seem to be led too easily by those who profit from our different visions of the future.
Conservatives, which I am a libertarian version of, see the greatness that is America and want to keep it from going down the tubes of what liberals think it should be changed into. To deny that liberals believe their version would be better is to deny exactly what America is, so we all lose, not from the divide itself, but from the debate stifled by those who profit from the divide.
I find it funny how two people of totally different stripes can stand in line at the store and have an open, wonderful conversation, but let a leader of either stripe enter the scene..........

Mountain Rose
EXCELLENT! Cal had it right about The America of his youth. However, The Liberals veered SHARPLY left in the 1960’s and have continued on this course. They have TRIED to hijack the language to suit their agenda: Reproductive Rights, Redistribution of Wealth and other Communist Claptrap. I have said before, America has open borders. If The Liberals don’t like it, THEY SHOULD LEAVE! Go to North Korea and savor a heaping platter of TREE BARK! Go to Cuba, where Castro won’t even use The Health Care System HE MANDATED!

Are Liberals Unpatriotic? Is McLame a RINO?
The answer to both questions is the same!

patriotism
Mountain Rose:

Did you notice that your definition of patriotism included only symbolic efforts that do nothing to move our country forward?

Patriotism means volunteering in schools.

Patriotism means donating blood.

Patriotism means reducing our country's dependence on oil imports by carpooling, taking mass transit, and installing solar panels.

jg:

This liberal Democrat has been teaching Sunday School for more than a decade. Your blanket characterization of all liberals as atheist is not only Holier Than Thou; it's bearing false witness.

Normandy
Hey folks, I've been to Normandy. It hits you in the gut and leaves you feeling profound sadness and profound pride in the cause of Freedom. Every white cross and Star of David that marks a grave speaks still to those who would disparage what makes our country great. Indeed, Freedom is NOT free. It has been paid for with blood and treasure, and is still. We take it for granted at our own peril.

Patriotism? You all need to start reading the Patriot Post. You'll get an education about the principles our nation was founded on. Our founding fathers felt that any form of government was an evil institution, but the government that governs LEAST is the only one to be tolerated.

That, my friends, is what differentiates the Conservative from the Liberal. Conservatives want to conserve our LIBERTY. Liberals want an all-powerful government.

Mountain Rose, you rule!!!

American Exceptionalism
Don't miss my TH blog! Mrs Paddy Too

Mountain Rose
Keep it up!!
Your statements are right on!
I would also venture to say that not only do Socialists/Polititians/Leftists not understand patriotism, they don't understand Honor, Duty, and Justice. These are the very ideas upon which patriotism is based, and the soil in which patriotism grows.

But a majority of our schools, homes, and churches, have not taught these foundational truths in many years and so patriotism has become a thought they cannot wrap their minds around. When presented with true patriotism they believe it is the lowest form of thought.

They cannot feel it in their hearts nor speak it from their lips, and therefore must label it as beneath them. Little do they know that their ignorance of such things will be there undoing in years to come.

patriotism
SFA:

I would largely agree with your list of unpatriotic acts. It would be better if you could substantiate your implications that these things are embraced by liberal. Your list sounds like it comes from discussions on websites like this rather than things liberal actually say.

beyond:

I'm an Eagle Scout. I know all about patriotism.
One of the most fundamental Duties of US citizens is to pay taxes. Given all the bellyaching the right does on taxation, they're in no position to lecture the left on patriotism.

Cam
I think what your definition of "moving our country forward" and the Conservative view differ quite a bit.

The founding fathers (the original Right Wingers, BTW) had it right. Moving Forward might have the unintended consequences of moving us back to the stone age (governmentally speaking).

Liberals stump for "free speech" but want the Fairness Doctrine and McCain-Feingold to exist.

Liberals decry meting out justice in the form of capital punishment for heinous crimes against humanity, but are okay with aborting innocent life.

Liberals swallow as whole cloth Al Gore's nonsence about "global warming" but think that Chicken Little was a fairytale.

Liberals believe in Darwin's theories of evolution and "survival of the fittest" but don't want to include humans as part of the natural order...they seem to think humans are outside of the natural order and the root cause of every disaster.

As soon as we give government (a collection of elected officials who are SUPPPOSED to represent their constituents) more power (regulations, more legal red-tape, more taxes, etc. etc.)we diminish the power and liberty of the citizens. Power to the PEOPLE.

Eagle Scout: Taxation
Don't mind paying legitimate taxes as they are spelled out in our Constitution. Read it, maybe then you will understand why higher and higher taxes go against our founding document.

Patriotism
To twist an old phrase

I cannot define patriotism, but I know it when I see it.

patriotism
mrs Paddy:

Reducing our dependence on oil imports wouldn't move the US forward? Wouldn't that reduce a trade deficit? Wouldn't it cut off funding to terrorists?

Actually, liberals want to provide health care to all American humans. The lack thereof kills 18,000 each year.

Al Gore is not the only one who believes in global warming. Even Bush does now. The World Health Organization estimates that 77,000 people worldwide die each year from the effects of global warming. Wouldn't fighting that be part of the Culture of Life? FYI, the Democrats have legislation in congress to reduce abortions.

SFA: Republicans don't shelter income? Who supports the AMT?

Cam
I'm all for reducing our oil imports. We wouldn't have such a problem if we'd been building more refineries and drilling (Why NOT drill in the arctic wasteland called ANWR?)...Answer: Envirnonmentalism.

I'm not so sure that using a food source (corn) to supplement our oil dependency is a great idea. I just heard that the price of beer is going up because the former barley producers are changing to corn. Watch for more food price increases! Trade off- probably good if we reduce foreign oil (and terrorist funding)...But we're going to pay for it! BIG TIME...all because of our lack of planning for the past 30+ yrs.

I don't know where you get your 18,000 deaths a year due to no nationalized health care. Probably Sicko. Nationalized health care is a TERRIBLE idea. Americans have more disposable income than they know what to do with. It's a matter of budgeting. I think we should carry insurance for catastrophic health issues, and pay as we go for routine care...just like we all used to do in the US. We already take care of those who are unable to care for themselves. Tort reform is needed for the medical community...not a nationalized health care beaurocracy. When people have choice they get better health care. Otherwise you get the lowest common denominator.

As far as global warming...read the Skeptical Envirnomentalist. No space to cover it all. Even if we are in a warming trend globally...how do we know that what we are changing from is is "normal?" The costs to "correct" the "problem" far exceed the likely benefits. Just because I think global warming is a hyped device to destroy capitalism, doesn't mean that I don't think we should be responsible on how we impact our home. I object to the fear mentality and it's "our fault." We might as well try to stop continental drift.

Everybody shelters their income if they can. So? Your point? I don't think I said anything saying Republicans don't shelter income...

Taxes should go to support our National Defence and the legitimate expenses to run the government...not for every pork barrel project the Congress can pad into everything....BOTH parties are guilty here...I am no advocate for either politcal party. I believe in CONSERVATIVE values.


Uncle Max
I was going to second WayneS's "Amen" to your STFU post.

But then it occurred to me that as silly as much of the squabbling sounds, it's still the sound of freedom. It actually gives me an enormously patriotic feeling to remember that no one here is going to get a knock on the door at night, and find jackbooted thugs outside of it, because of what he said here today.

The sound of freedom isn't always pretty. In fact, I'd say it's usually as noisome, cacophonous, and onerous to the ear as the roar of a Superhornet on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Only now and then does it produce a ringing demand like Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

Rarely does it produce a Churchill to proclaim: "..we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

Not often do we hear it say, as Lincoln did at Gettysburg, that "from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

And only once in all the millennia has it produced words like this: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

You have to go through a lot of noise and expense, in that sound of freedom, to get to "We hold these truths to be self-evident." But it's worth it.

God bless America. Let freedom ring!!

dyerje
AMEN!

Eagle Scout Cam
I too pay my taxes along with every other law abiding person. What the true gripe is--taxation without representation! Our Government long ago (under FDR) took away our voices in the matter of taxes. The only voice we have is a nominal one at the state level about school levies, and road taxes, and we only get to vote on those when the Legislatures are feeling magnanimous.

Whenever some politician in D.C. comes up with some hairbrained plan to feed, clothe, house, babysit, educate, indoctrinate, and otherwise provide cradle to grave service for everyone including some in other countries (and in reality, line their own pockets)--it is on the back of people like me, my husband, and others. I will never see the benifit of any of my "patriotically" given federal tax dollars (aside from a GREAT military for which I gladly pay).

A good test--calculate all the tax you have paid in your working life to the federal government only, and then calculate how much of that you recieve back in services provided to you from the federal government. Subtract the two and see where you stand.

And as to the discussion of patriotism--I have come around--Solcialists/Politicians ARE patriotic--just not USA patriots--French maybe, or perhaps Cuban? No, I have it--Venezuelan?

dyerje
Thanks for your post. It occurs to me, that only the voice of Freedom allows for such soaring rhetoric. God Bless America, indeed!

dyerje
Awesome quotes--Gotta love history!
I would also add that
"We hold these truths. . ."
is completely unique in human history. You are completely correct in pointing out the noise that surrounds the ideals it upholds. But at the end of the day we must reflect in quiet and ask did my "noise" aid in its success or aid in its demise.

Thanks Beyond The Pale
We who call the military home thank you for your generous tax dollars and support.

Cam
Just for curiousity I looked up traffic fatalities (in order to compare to your 18,000 deaths each year because we don't have nationalized health care).

In 2005 Alcohol-related fatalities: 16,885
Total Traffic Fatalities: 43,443

These are nation-wide stats. Found on the MADD web site...
Should we ban cars now? Clearly it is more dangerous to drive a vehicle than to go to war.


Mountain Rose
Thats not patrioitism...thats nationalism.

naked pagan
Actually, Mountain Rose is correct. Patriotism is a "fervent love of one's country" as is demonstrated by the things she mentioned. It is a deeply held feeling. Nationalism doesn't have the same emotional connection. It is simply a sense of community and commonality with one's society.

I submit that you have to understand the history of our nation, and want to preserve the innovative mind-set that created this great experiment called the USA, to really LOVE our NATION...That's what makes a Patriot.

Cal made a new friend
Wow, Cal, thanks! Couldn't agree more, for once!

The labeling of the Left as "unAmerican" is the biggest travesty of the Iraq debate on this side of the world. The solid majority of Americans who support at least a loose timeline for withdrawal became the solid majority they are in part because of the backlash from those accusations. The War on Terror is the most important fight of our lifetimes, and so for one side to be lumped in with the enemy is counterproductive and dangerous.

Those that disagree with Bush's war plan are not unAmerican. They just realize that Bush concluded war was needed far before all other options had been exhausted. And that's unacceptable.

Samuel Adams
“A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.” —

Jeffrob
"....Bush concluded war was needed far before all other options had been exhausted."

I'm assuming your spaceship just landed here in 2003. 10-15 minutes of research will clear up a lot of confusion. You can just type these into your favorite search engine. I recommend you start with:

Gulf War Resolutions
UN Weapons Inspectors (Iraq)
Oil for Food Scandal
American, British, Russian, French Iraq intel
President Clinton's comments on Iraq/Saddam
Thirteen UN violations (Iraq)
No-fly zone violations (Iraq)

These are just for starters. I am so tired of "Bush rushed us into war"....in reality, our country reacted pathetically slow.

Its subtle, but...
Patroitism : love for or devotion to one's country

Nationalism : exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups


A Nationalist would say we are the greatest country in the world, and others need to follow us.

A patroit would say some systems are better than others, but this one works for us.

While both demonstrate a certain affection for their country, a patroit sees the flaws, and trys to fix them, a nationalist ignores the flaws, and wants everyone else to feel the same way they do.

IceDog
Gulf War Resolutions
WMD were disposed of
UN Weapons Inspectors (Iraq)
UN did not find any WMD
Oil for Food Scandal
Our hands were in the till as well
American, British, Russian, French Iraq intel
Were not conclusive nor did they agree
President Clinton's comments on Iraq/Saddam
Thirteen UN violations (Iraq)
How many for Israel?
No-fly zone violations (Iraq)
Not a function of the UN, and not part of the UN actions for desert storm


What are you whining about? You got your war...and this resulting mess is a result of it.



Jeffrob & Icedog
I agree with Icedog "our country reacted pathetically slow."

Regardless, there is a difference between honest debate on how to proceed now we are there, and the strident "Bush lied" and "Bring the troops home now." mantra. I find it especially disgusting when Reid says we have "Lost." What person throws in the towel when the going gets rough.

No one on the Left seems to think that there would be any serious reprecussions to just bugging out now. We already know from his own words that Bin Laden was emboldened by our precipitous withdrawal from Somalia. He assessed that the US didn't have the stomach for a fight.

If we don't fight for right, we may as well surrender all of our freedoms, because we obviously hold them in puny regard.

NO one (other than those of us with loved ones in the military) is suffering the slightest inconvenience because of "Bush's war." Then they think they have some kind of moral high ground to disparage our troops because war is "wrong."

We're there. It was duly voted on by our elected leaders. There was cause. Let's get behind our military and finish the job.

mrs Paddy
"NO one (other than those of us with loved ones in the military) is suffering the slightest inconvenience because of "Bush's war." Then they think they have some kind of moral high ground to disparage our troops because war is "wrong."

We're there. It was duly voted on by our elected leaders. There was cause. Let's get behind our military and finish the job."
===========
That is probably one of the best assessments of the current situation I've read on TH. Kudos.

The anti-war libsquirts who run around mewling like little girls have absolutely NO FEAR of ever serving in the military, especially since Daddy and Mommy are often paying their way through school. It's stunning to realize that they're tools of decrepit 60's leftovers, who've never worked a hard day in their lives, and too dumb to know or care about it. Prancing around in their CHE t-shirts, they're a walking joke.

Patriotism
I do love this country and sometimes it would be nice if we could just agree to disagree an have some class when we do it.
I am register as a democrat but voted for Bush. I would say that Bush has made mistakes the same as all presidents, including Clinton. Somewhere, somehow, we as a group of people have tried our best to divide this country. I do believe united we stand divided we fall. We can no longer agree even on basic things that made this a great country. People will even write back saying what great country. So please, spare me, I already know all of the evil we do. When we threw away basic morals and values for the what ever one feels that was the slide down the old hill. Yes, when someone is brain dead it should only be the family that has to decide what to do. We put our pets out of their misery. Yet, when it comes to abortion, we really know it is the beginning of life, stop playing a game with words, but who will take care of that life if the mother can't. THe problem with abortion is because it just the results of somthing much bigger. Why are we ok with our young women going through these clients like nothing more than an assembly line. Why don't we care about that.
Enough, it all so sad and all anyone anymore wants to do is grip and complain. Nothing more.

naked pagan
Why do we give two hoots and a carload what the UN says we should do? I'm sick to death of worrying about what the UN thinks (or any other nation for that matter) We should pull out of the UN and stop funding it NOW.

Mrs. Paddy and Icedog
I find the support for our continued Iraq occupation just as fuzzy-headed as you find the call to bring troops home. I realize that we "face an unprecedented evil", and that throwing all of our military might at it seems like a tempting solution ("how could we lose? we're the USA!"), but the situation has obviously become much more complex than that. We're dealing with a secatarian war with millenia of background. No Superpower's military will be able to make the Sunni like the Shiite. Nor is the obliteration of Islam an honorable goal. That may sound silly, but read enough TH postings and you'll realize it's the hope of many a misled American.

I realize that "Bring the Troops home Now!" and "War is not the Answer!" sound like ignorant, naive rantings to freedom-loving Americans like yourselves, but it is the best response to the "Moderate Muslims don't exist, they are all evil and must be irradicated!" nonsense.

Peace may have become a bad word to conservatives in the last six years, but can't we agree that it is what we're all hoping for, eventually? Peace?

borghe
To this discussion you offer confused points:
We can't pass on republican "legacies":
- christianism, where all citizens should sublject themselves under the tyranny of religious beliefs of some and tax payer money.,

This one defies parsing. What exactly do you think all citizens would have to do under christianism? You are 0 for 1.

- caring only for foetuses and braindead people because actually caring for those who are living is too inconvenient,

Again, feathery nonsense. Now you are 0 for 2.

- mixing overbloated ego as personal leadership (George w. Bush, Cheney are the examples)

They are two of the most self-effacing national figures I can name. Now you are 0 for 3.

- extreme fundamentalism, intolerance and open racism are all the rave.

Among what crowd? Now you are 0 for 4. If this is your honest estimate of Republican thinking, it's time to start reading. These posts will be a good start.

It would be cruel to ask where you learned grammar, punctuation, and spelling.

naked pagan
"Oil for Food Scandal
Our hands were in the till as well."

Oh really? Please inform me where. This was 100% Kofi Annan, his son, and a few other euroscum.

And if you think that the UN is such a great investment of about 500 million each year, of OUR tax money, do point out ONE success wherein they stopped a war before it started. I can give you about 20 FAILURES since Korea, June 1950.

JeffRob
While I see your point, can you point out where a major Muslim group has come out and condemned suicide bombings in Israel? Terrorism? Beheading of the innocent?

I see a lot of liberal groups like the ACLU whining and wringing their hands over the poor detainees at Gitmo but not a lot of action concerning Mayor Bloomberg's abuses of the 2d Amendment for example, or DC's illegal gun ban, that deprives law-abiding citizens of the means to defend themselves and their homes.

It appears to me that liberals merely cherry-pick the issues that suit their agenda.

naked pagan
Meant to add that I've been to Iraq once and I am going back again and the Iraqi people love Americans. I've posted enough stories on my blog about the good we're doing, one just yesterday, but you won't read ANY of that on moveon.org, DailyKraP, and the NY Slimes.

From where I stand, the only ones protesting us are liberals and al-qaeda terrorists. Basically, the fifth column and our enemy hand-in-hand.

jeffrob
I understand what you are saying about the sectarian (Sunni/Shiite) schizm. However, you haven't said how you think stopping our "occupation" will help? The Sunni and Shiites are perfectly happy to join forces under the umbrella of Islam when they fight us Infidels.

What do you think about our "occupation" of S. Korea, Germany, England, Bosnia....????

Peace at what price? Two million died when we pulled out of Viet Nam? Or do you only care for American life?

Why do you believe that we do not face an enemy of fascists? They have stated their goals. Why do you not believe them? Why is it easier to believe that we are wrong and if we just left them alone we'd all join hands and sing Kumbaya?

jeffrob

"Moderate Muslims don't exist, they are all evil and must be irradicated!" nonsense.

Does this mean eradicated or irradiated, or is it a clever way to simultaneously suggest both?

If most Muslims are moderate, where is their influence on the not-so-moderate? They are missing a great opportunity.


GunnyG
God speed when you go back to Iraq. Where can I read your blog?

"Patriot" defined
Everyone seems to have their own idea of what it means to be a "patriot" and to have "patriotism". Well, for those of you who don't have dictionaries I've looked it up so that you can read it for yourselves. Here you go: According to Oxford American Dictionaries,

patriot |'patre?t| noun 1 a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

Now, please decide for yourself if you are a "patriot" or not.

broncofan
Now look what you did? You've opened another whole can of worms while everyone debates who is an enemy or a detractor...

mrs Paddy/GunnyG
Just passing quickly thru but come on a little reality...


"I understand what you are saying about the sectarian (Sunni/Shiite) schizm. However, you haven't said how you think stopping our "occupation" will help?"

It will help by letting the carnage begin IF they cannot resolve their differences. With our military abandoned in the Iraq desert no one including us has to change anything except let the slaughter continue with no resolution in sight

"What do you think about our "occupation" of S. Korea, Germany, England, Bosnia....????"


England and South Korea for two might take exception. England probably had a large part in saving us from a nuclear war during the cold war. I know our education system is poor but really....

"Peace at what price? Two million died when we pulled out of Viet Nam? Or do you only care for American life?"

Perhaps if Nixon didn't drag on the war for political reasons it might only have been a 100,000. You tell me whose lives count? How many Iraqi dead?

"Why do you believe that we do not face an enemy of fascists? They have stated their goals."

Why do you believe a band of criminal scum is a reason to end your own freedoms and live in terror? That is really the question.

"Why do you not believe them? Why is it easier to believe that we are wrong and if we just left them alone we'd all join hands and sing Kumbaya?"

Get real they are criminal scum that we hunt down as we always have done and we maintained our freedoms too.

World Government
Cal I wish I could upload a picture of a house I drive by often. The guy flies a United Nations flag.

There is a lot of people who believe that patriotism is an outdated and dangerous idea which brings war and discrimination.

They want world government.

The most important distinction of our time is between people who still love the United States and pledge their loyalty to the flag and those who think we are better of ditching this country.

There are certainly proponets of the "New World Order" on both sides of the aisle.

There are plenty of coorporations operating in a transnational economy who have no loyalty or, regard fo any country. They only care about profit and labor as a traded comodity.

Many scholars believe 'patriotism' to be a bigoted prejudice.

Islamo-facist accept the one world order idea, they just want to shape it according to their religion.

Marxist have always been 'internationalists.'

Socialist are also enamored with creating a global bureaucracy. The 'climate crisis' is basically and excuse for them to justify their global power grab.

Actually, when you look at it, the American public is the only thing capable of thwarting this movement towards one big global bureaucracy, hence the concerted effort by so many to destroy us.

Can I mention shamnesty?

I agree that the Liberal-Conservative distintion is blurring. These days it is much more revealing to group people in terms of those who still love the US and those ready to raise the United Nations flag.

Hal Donohue
"It will help by letting the carnage begin IF they cannot resolve their differences. With our military abandoned in the Iraq desert no one including us has to change anything except let the slaughter continue with no resolution in sight"
"Perhaps if Nixon didn't drag on the war for political reasons it might only have been a 100,000. You tell me whose lives count? How many Iraqi dead?"
=========
Now I'm confused. Do you care about Iraqi life or don't you? Don't forget it was LBJ that got us into Viet Nam.

I guess you are not aware that we still "occupy" many countries around the globe...What makes you think that Iraq is not a strategic area?

You use the term "criminal scum" that we "hunt down as we always have"....Are you a bounty hunter? Who is hunting them down?

I don't live in fear. I believe in our military and our way of life. The fear mongers are the liberals/leftists who cry "global warming" "gun control" and "other nations hate us."

Sorry Donahue/not Donohue
Sorry...misspelled your name on the previous post.

cam fyi
16,885 alcohol-related fatalities out 43,443
total.
The key words are alcohol related,.,.,since only
1 beer or .01 is all required to use those words.

Thanks

Patriotism
Patriotism is letting the guys who attacked us on 9/11 get away and using those attacks as a pretext to attack Iraq.

Patriotism is hyping the people's fear and lying us into an unwinnable war.

Patriotism is bungling the war once you've lied the country into it -- including failing to give the troops adequate body armor.

Patriotism is making sure the company you used to be the CEO of reaps billions in profits off of that war.

Patriotism is blowing the cover of an undercover CIA agent to punish a critic of the war.

Patriotism is torture.

Patriotism is spying on American citizens.

Patriotism is commuting the sentences of convicted felons in your administration.

Patriotism is promising to rebuild New Orleans and then forgetting about that promise as soon as the cameras stop rolling.

Patriotism is doing away with the writ of habeas corpus.

Patriotism is George W. Bush.

mrs Paddy
"Perhaps if Nixon didn't drag on the war for political reasons it might only have been a 100,000. You tell me whose lives count? How many Iraqi dead?"
=========
"Now I'm confused. Do you care about Iraqi life or don't you? Don't forget it was LBJ that got us into Viet Nam."

I do care but delaying may well only increase the body count from the Bush Regime debacle. Oh I know about Johnson but does that excuse Nixon deliberately extending the war during a period of high casualities for political reasons?

"I guess you are not aware that we still "occupy" many countries around the globe...What makes you think that Iraq is not a strategic area?"

England for one has never been occupied by the UK. I suspect you confuse allies and enemies. Iraq is not a MAJOR strategic area. Now Saudi Arabia or Iran are

"You use the term "criminal scum" that we "hunt down as we always have"....Are you a bounty hunter? Who is hunting them down?"

The US Government and from the shores of Tripoli till now we (the US Government and yes me in my day) hunted them down. Now it appears we hide...

"I don't live in fear. I believe in our military and our way of life. The fear mongers are the liberals/leftists who cry "global warming" "gun control" and "other nations hate us."

Oh yes you do live in FEAR and a lot of it read all you have written here today.....

Gunny G
>Meant to add that I've been to Iraq once and I am going back again
Be sure to stop in Navistar, they have a great chow hall

> and the Iraqi people love Americans.
I would love anyone holding a gun to my head,but we shouldnt be making foerign policy a popularity contest. We should be doing what is in the best intrests of our countr


>From where I stand, the only ones protesting us are liberals and al-qaeda terrorists.
That is because your a nationalist. There have been plenty of retired Generals protesting this war, and right now, it appears a majority of the american people.


mrs paddy
>Why do we give two hoots and a carload what the UN says we should do?

When it came to the OIF invasion, they provided timely HUMIT which NO intelligence angeny had since the end of Desert Storm. Real time, on the ground, in your face intelligance....and they didnt find a vast WMD infrastrture or ware houses or serviceable weapons.

If we had listened to them like Bush said we would, we wouldnt be stuck over there now, and we could be really making our country secure

thats why.

Gunny G
Here is all I got time for now, but feel free to research it on your own:

"...American government was aware of the scandal and chose to not prevent the smuggling because their allies Turkey and Jordan benefited from the majority of the smuggled oil.

US Senator Carl Levin (D-Michigan) is quoted in an interview for the New York Times as saying, "There is no question that the bulk of the illicit oil revenues came from the open sale of Iraqi oil to Jordan and to Turkey, and that that was a way of going around the Oil-for-Food Programme [and that] we were fully aware of the bypass and looked the other way"

So we were dirty too. If I were Caltholic, I would call it the 'sin of ommission'

Patriotism
I was amazed at the unpatriotic attitudes expressed by some of the individuals on this thread. I would like to invite the unpatriotic to leave this country if it is so bad. There are reasons why we have power and wealth and one of them is patriotism.

The terrorists declared war on our country a long time ago. They have resolved to defeat us and with the help of American traitors this is possible.

Gunny G
Are you going as active military or as a mercenary?

Brujo Blanco
"I was amazed at the unpatriotic attitudes expressed by some of the individuals on this thread. I would like to invite the unpatriotic to leave this country if it is so bad. There are reasons why we have power and wealth and one of them is patriotism."

But people like Gunny and ms paddy are part of the country too. To ask them to leave like that is unfair.

"The terrorists declared war on our country a long time ago. They have resolved to defeat us and with the help of American traitors this is possible."

Get a grip! They are trash with delusions of grandeur....

Naked pagan
Is this the self same U.N. which under Mr. Kofi has troops in Africa raping and torturing women and children?
Mrs. Paddy I think if you look a little closer at historical fact, it was J.F.K. who got us involved in Viet Nam.
I don't remember who it was that accused Hal of being unpatriotic, but while I don't agree with what he's saying tonight, I have a problem calling anyone who has fought for our country by that unsavory handle. Don't mean to ruffle any feathers, just my way of thinking.

Patriotism
As I write this I am sitting six feet from my TV which is showing a fireworks display and playing "The Stars and Stripes Forever". This combination used to make me feel proud and patriotic. Now it reminds me of the Bush administration, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, secret CIA prisons, unwarranted wiretapping, the invasion of a sovereign nation that did not attack us first, renditioning, torture, indefinite incarceration without charges or access to counsel, 3600 dead American military servicepeople, violation of long-standing international treaties, secret meetings with corporate executives to write law for the United States of America IN SECRET, shrink-wrapping of documents so they can't be archived in libraries as the law requires, placement of Bush representatives in government science agencies to make sure that ideology trumps science, and the violation of the civil rights of homosexual American citizens, and, oh yes, the Libby Liberation. And that is not even a complete list. So hearing this music and those fireworks breaks my heart tonight, because it reminds me of what our country used to be, and what we may now be unable to restore, ever.

And I thought this....
.....whole column and all the posts to it were about some athletic team in New England. Stupid me.
-------------------------------------------------
In all seriousness, if one were to closely read Cal Thomas' column I think one would find that he was not being conciliatory toward liberals and it wasn't a Rodney King thing. It was, however, astute comment on the way most of the country used to be (circa pre and early post WW2) and the way much of rural America still is -- i.e., neighborly! Beyond that, I felt his wish was for a return to those times of neighborliness across the whole country.
Nuff said!!!
TBC :>)

eastlake joe ...
...Actually it was Truman who got us into Vietnam when he turned down Ho Chi Mihn's request for assistance in rebuilding the country after the end of WW2.

Black cherokee
I was talking actual presence of troops. I.E. advisors and trainers.

Robert-o
Why don't you just come out and admit it, you only like billary because she supported Scamnesty. After months of saying how stupid Bush was and that was one thing I agreed with her on, She turned tail and said how HONORABLE bush was for sticking to his guns on the scamnesty bill. She talks out of both sides of her mouth at the same time. Wake up or join your buddies down south.

Robert
I agree with you that the Democrats are pandering and would add that they are also prostituting. And maybe God knows what we should be doing in the Middle East, but I don't. However, since the first month of the Bush II administration, I have been alarmed by actions that seem always counter to what I learned in Junior High School Civics class: no rational person could fail to see that Bush and Cheney have placed themselves above the law and are running an extralegal outfit. And I have been astonished that Republicans, with all their talk of law & order and the Constitution, seem so willing to rationalize the most egregious ruptures of our laws as long as the outlaws are Republican outlaws.

I love this country, ...
but hate Americans. We are so stupid for gradually ruining such a wonderful thing. I tell my boys that the three things that made this country great are the Constitution, the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. Modern communication, travel and lack of border enforcement have weakened our isolation from stupidity. Our so called Supreme Court has decided to trust its own Solomonic wisdom rather than that of our founders.
Mr. Thomas says neither Democrats nor Republicans hold a monopoly on patriotism. I agree. The Democratic party supports godless socialism but panders to lawyers and corporations for money. The Republican party support soulless and borderless corporations but panders to large voting blocks, such as evangelical Christians.
Freedom is a "Catch 22". You are only truly "free" if you take responsibility for your actions. However, if you take responsibility for your actions you have to act ... well ... responsibly ... and so ... you are not truly free.
I am more than happy to allow others to "do it if it feels good", to "release their inner child", or to "get in touch with their feelings" if I don't have to pay for the consequences of their choices. Otherwise, I am in favor or trying to legislate, to impose if you will, my Christian morality. Get it?
When I demand a separation of church and state, I want government to quit doing charitable works; to quit trying to do God's work. Government "charity" quickly becomes an entitlement. You want to celebrate Independence Day? Me too, but you can forget about welfare. Forget about socialized medicine. Play by the rules. Study. Get a degree. Get a job. Drive sober. Be safe. Have sex when you are willing to deal with the consequences. As an engineer, use a large safety factor ... BE CONSERVATIVE.
You don't have to wave a flag or tote a gun to be patriotic (although toting a gun for your country is, definitely, patriotic). You just have to assert your own independence. That is ... work to pull your weight; to keep from being a burden on (ie reducing the freedom of) your fellow Americans.
Happy Independence Day! God bless us with the wisdom to trust the wisdom of our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

GeorgeTwin
" I have said before, America has open borders."

Oh it does, does it, George? Exactly where do you find that in your version of the Constitution, George, because I don't see it in mine!

You speak of Communism, well this is the biggest pile of Communist garbage I have heard since George Bush last gave a speech.

We have borders and immigration laws for a reason. The Executive Branch is refusing to protect our ports and borders, carry out the legislation that was signed into law to build the border fence and to enforce our immigration laws. They either need to do their jobs, or we need to give them a swift kick out of office. Every single one of them.

HadEnough37
"Actually it's lifelong Democrat, the now very powerful Independent Joe Lieberman, who is the strongest proponent for attacking Iran. He has even said he will support the Presidential candidate who is strongest on fighting terrorism and stopping Iran's nuclear weapons agenda."

Lieberman is thinking about becoming a Republican and no wonder. He and the other big government Republicans are on the very same page. You seem to be inferring that it is only Joe that wants to preemptively NUKE a country who has not attacked our own. Well, you must have missed the 3rd Republican debate. With one exception, and we all know who that was, don't we, ALL the candidates wanted to leave a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran, on the table. Yes, the Democrats are just as disgusting, if not more so, but the Republicans get no crown of glory either.

"Go figure. But then you'll say it's because he is Jewish and Iran has stated unequivocally that they intend to wipe Israel of the face of the earth. No lack of stated intention there is there? "

You're the only one that brought up that anyone was Jewish. I find it curious that you did so. Is that what you do when your argument has no legs to stand on? LOL.

As far as whether Ahmadinenutjob actually said that or not, there appears to be a difference of opinion on that, since all we know is how someone translated what he said. More than several Farsi scholars have stepped forward and said that no, he was quoting Khomeini and said..."like Communism and Fascism, Zionism would disappear as an ideology from the pages of time."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5bEhN7_abc&eurl=

I do realize it is much more attractive to want to go blow up some more people, but perhaps we might want to make sure what the man really said, before we go NUKE a bunch of men, women and children!

Patriotism

Patriotism is not roasting hot dogs, shooting off firecrackers, or even waving American flags. Nor, is it going along with whatever the President or Congress wants to do, when their actions are contrary to the Constitution and thus, against everything our country was founded upon.

We were told this once by Teddy Roosevelt. Did we not listen, or is it that we did not hear?

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Teddy Roosevelt

We are currently living in very interesting times indeed. Our borders have been overrun by illegal aliens, some of which believe a great part of our country belongs to their nation of Aztlan. Mexican flags have been hoisted above the American flag in at least one location in California. There is a town in Texas, whose official language now is Spanish. Our schools and hospitals are inundated with illegal aliens. Americans are killed daily on the border and elsewhere in America, by these illegals. Still, our government sits idly by.

Our President has made it quite clear he wants open borders with Mexico and damn well plans to do it, regardless of what we think. He continues to move forward with this Security and Prosperity Partnership with Canada and Mexico to merge the 3 countries into much the same as the European Union. Only a blind man cannot see this is what is happening, yet many Americans don't seem to care.

We have a President who misled us into one war and is getting ready to do it again. This same President has used the tragedy of 9-11 to push through all kinds of legislation that erodes our long-standing system of checks and balances, giving government the ability to spy on law abiding American citizens, with no judicial oversight.

We have sat idly by why habeas corpus has been stripped from American citizens. Yes, the Military Commission Act does apply to you too. Biometric National ID cards are on the way. Illegal searches and seizures. Check points. The list goes on and on.

Recently, our President issued a Presidential Directive (51) that looks like he believes he has the authority, rather than Congress, to declare martial law, for just about any reason he wants to. What that means, is we will have a defacto dictator, complete with troops in the streets. I wonder if they will be ours, or the UN's.

On this day, July 4, we should give praise to those who went before us, who gave everything to stand up against the oppressive King, and fought for our independence and our liberty. Men who risked everything to write the Constitution to create for us a Republic and to restrain the new government from becoming tyrannical. They left us with many words of wisdom. Some of which told us to not ever stop being vigilant of government. To watch our liberties and not trust anyone that might take them away. Too bad we didn't listen.

After we give praise to these people, we should then hang our heads in shame. Yes, SHAME. Because we have almost allowed our country to be totally destroyed, from within. I can't imagine what all those brave soldiers who fought and died in WWI and WWII, for our Constitution and our freedom, would think of us now. I would imagine they would ask us why we have allowed this to happen. They didn't die for us to be lazy, chicken-livered wusses, who watch our Constitution being dismantled before our very eyes and our government allowing our country to be sold out to the highest bidder.

It is NOT patriotism to watch your country die without a whimper. And it certainly IS NOT patriotism to cheer them while they kill it.

Hey Lilly....
Stop abusing illegal drugs. They're affecting your judgement....

American Values of the Founding Fathers
Cal,
I enjoy hearing you on different programs. I am a retired businessman who began to research how the Founding Fathers might have reacted to the terrorists' attacks of September 11th. Having written many American Values in pamphlet form since then, I have found that the radical, terrorist, politician, entertainer, etc cannot withstand the simple, rock hard values of the Founding Fathers. If someone on your staff will send me your email address, I will add you to American Values.

Ron White

Baby Boomer mentality
Being a member of the Baby Boom generation, I find it hard to swallow Mr. Thomas' latest column. Many of my generation, which is the generation now in power, were formally educated by America-hating Marxists, and iconoclasts of all stripes. As a whole, the Baby Boomers are not a patriotic group, but are the purveyors of, and the true believers in the "counterculture", which sprung to life during the mid-late 60s. The counterculture was egged on at the university level, using the conflict in Viet Nam as a lightning rod, resulting in mass, anti-war, pro-hedonism demonstrations throughout the nation.

The prevailing thought among many baby boomers, particularly those who received their anti-American indoctrination while at college, was that no war has even been worth fighting.

Like today's Democrat Party, and the national mass media, which has chosen to politicize the well being of our fighting men and women to their own advantage, the young baby boomers were also invested in the overseas defeat of the United States of America's military forces. People who invest in their country's military defeat, and who decide that the lives of the citizenry of the enemy in war are more important than the lives of our military personnel, and whose words and actions impel their defeat, are traitors, not America lovers.

Likewise for those who refuse to safeguard our country from illegal invasion, ignoring the popular mandate to do so at once, are not America lovers, but traitors.

Mr. Thomas needs to realize that the baby boom generation is in the process of imposing the hedonistic, moral relativist, pacifist, counterculture of the 60s upon our nation, not as a group of lunatic radicals, thrown out of the Democrat party convention in Chicago----but as those who now control that Party, as well as most of the communication media.

Johnny Tango
What a barrage of tired cliches you trot out in support of an ideology that only the most rabidly jingoistic could agree with. I suggest you re-read Thomas's article with an open mind, if that's possible.

History changes
Cal is a great patriot and tries to be so nice to the Left today. Historically, it seems that the Nam War and even some of the lefties that we read in our history books from the 1930's, which propagandized the students of the '60's simply changed the meaning of patriotism. To the Left, it was always blame America as Jeanne Kirpratrick avered. Yes, WWII, in which my dad fought and I wrote letters to during that horrid war , was our greatest generation where Dems and Pubs knew that totalitarians were evil. Today, the Left cannot describe what evil is either morally, culturally, or internationally. Oh wait, Global Warming, Right Wing Christians, Pubs, Reagan-Bush. So it is not easy to generalize what patriotism means today even though Cal is trying to be soooooo tolerant on this wonderful day of freedom and liberty. Today, the Left uses Howard Zinn as the describer of what a real American is. Others still look toward the Declaration, the Constitution, and the many letters, statements of Americans over the last 200 plus years plus those valiant warriors who are facing Islamofascism today. Oh that I wish all Americans really thought America was still a light on a Hill for all nations. Sadly, the Left doesn't.

Fourth of July
May all of you, on the anniversary of the birth of our great nation, Have a wonderful day. May God bless ALL of you with peace and heartfelt love for the U.S.A. I say this and include Robert and Irish Eddie also.

Thank you Cal Thomas
for your words of undeniable wisdom. As you can see from the posts people have made, many people in America have a long way to go before they realize we all love our country, and vociferous disagreement on policy(s) means only that Americans are doing their duty, and dissenting over what they view as wrong. If there was no dissent, we'd be in sad shape as a country, and our founders would be turning over in their graves.
-
But hopefully people such as yourself will prevail in these troubled times of national division based on political party lines, because that's the only way we beat back the troubles and problems our country faces at this time in our history. Again, thank you for trying to reach through the rhetoric and name calling, for the betterment of our nation as a whole. Happy Independence Day :-)

Forgot to add
that at this time in our nation's history, voices of reason such as yours portray a hell of a lot more courage than do voices that call people derogatory names. Your courage shines.

The Ruling Class little Secret
“Rich White Males” was the first Minority Group in America.
They had a dilemma, How to make sure that the Majority (Poor/Middle Class Whites), do not turn against them. They had to think of the best way to control the majority? Hate and/or Fear. But just in case the people were smarter than they expected and did not fall for their fear/hate tactics, they introduce Greed into society (you can be Rich just like us if you work hard).

They first focus majority of the people hatred toward the British. After the British were defeated, they had to find another group for the people to hate/fear. We have the American Civil War. Hundreds of Thousands of Poor/Middle Class Whites are dying. White Southerners are fighting for their way of life, for their Dream to one day be a member of the Rich White Male Club. But their dreams are crushed, slavery is abolished.

It’s funny that nobody hates a Slave, but a free man is always hated. The Ruling Class in America was losing control of their society. The poor/middle class whites are having resentment toward the ones in power. The majority hatred was focus on a new group “Black Americans”.

In current day America, blacks are not hated at the same degree as they were in the past. There are some small right-wing groups, like the KKK that harbor hatred toward blacks and other minority groups.

“Hating People” is not political correct anymore so now the Ruling Class use fear (Fear of Terrorism) to control the majority of people.

Isn’t it funny that the Ruling Class “Corporate America” was so much for Comprehensive Immigration Reform (Cheap Labor). Thinking that their old minority hating tactic did not have any more affect on the Majority, that poor/middle class white people would be okay with them legalizing 20 Million Brown people.

Americans, Please Wake Up

Stop letting the Ruling Class use you, and take back America.


Agree - for once
It is rare that I agree with the opinions of Cal Thomas. He is a chickenhawk. What makes it worse is that he often cloaks his extremist ideas in 'Christian clothing'.

But this column I like. He shows an attitude of tolerance generally lacking among partisans on the far right or far left. We certainly hear from plenty of haters, crackpots, and bigots in these postings.


They only chickenhawks you'll find are..
....huddled around the Agents of Dempar looking for new ways to appease Jihadists....

....and that's on both sides of the pond.

Confusing patriotism with volunteerism
Cam writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 11:07 AM
"patriotism
Mountain Rose:
Did you notice that your definition of patriotism included only symbolic efforts that do nothing to move our country forward?
Patriotism means volunteering in schools.
Patriotism means donating blood.
Patriotism means reducing our country's dependence on oil imports by carpooling, taking mass transit, and installing solar panels.
jg:
This liberal Democrat has been teaching Sunday School for more than a decade. Your blanket characterization of all liberals as atheist is not only Holier Than Thou; it's bearing false witness."
***************************************

According to Miriam Webster:
patriotism: love for or devotion to one's country
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism

Patriotism and volunteerism are not the same thing.

A person can hate their country, and volunteer out of globalistic or humanistic feelings, which often happens with those of the Leftist persuasion.

More about Cam's confusion of terms
Cam was confused about the definition of patriotism, yet you will notice that she is teaching children.

"Moving America Forward" is a nice phrase, often used by conservatives, but now taken over by a liberal, which is typical.

Leftists like to confuse terms so that they can monopolize the debate with their failed ideas.

By redefining patriotism, and changing the definition of "moving America forward," she can pretend that her Left Wing ideals are the traditional ones.

Just like Hillary Clinton redefining "traditional values" to mean socialized medicine, and homosexuals redefining "family values" to mean gays adopting children, Cam redefines "patriotism" to mean whatever SHE happens to be doing.

I suspect that if I sat in on her Sunday School class, I would find that she is redefining most of the tennants of the Christian faith.

And regarding moving America forward: if you are pointing your vehicle toward a precipice, moving it forward is the wrong idea.

Mountain Rose
"And regarding moving America forward: if you are pointing your vehicle toward a precipice, moving it forward is the wrong idea."

I agree. And this is exactly why we should get the heck out of Iraq.
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