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Thursday, May 31, 2007
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
It Takes a Socialist Village
by Cal Thomas
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Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has unveiled her economic vision. Should she be given the power to implement it, we can say goodbye to the prosperity and opportunity we have enjoyed since the Reagan years.

In a speech at Manchester School of Technology in New Hampshire, Clinton said it's time to replace President Bush's "ownership society," which she called an "on your own" society, with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity.

Clinton said she prefers a "we're all in it together" society: "I believe our government can once again work for all Americans. It can promote the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none."

Doesn't such a society already exist elsewhere? It's called socialism, where government has sought to make all things economically equal and the only equality is that all are equally poor. Wasn't defeating such a society precisely why we fought and won the Cold War? Why does Senator Clinton wish to embrace the principles of the losing side?

Clinton has merely updated the old and discredited (except among socialist dictators) Karl Marx saying: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Clinton's remarks came before students at a school whose purpose is to train high school kids for careers in the construction, automotive, graphic arts and other industries. She told them, "We have sent a message to our young people that if you don't go to college . . . that you're thought less of in America. We have to stop this."

Her assertion is bunk, but it is the typical class warfare bunk that comes from rich white liberals who want to take money from one group of people and give to others who didn't earn it in hopes they will become loyal Democratic voters.

This is not the philosophy that made America what it is. This is not a land of equal outcome, but of equal opportunity commensurate with one's talents, interests and drive.

In his "The Wealth of Nations," Adam Smith wrote: "It is the highest impertinence and presumption, therefore, in kings and ministers, to pretend to watch over the economy of private people, and to restrain their expense. . . . (Kings and ministers) are themselves always, and without any exception, the greatest spendthrifts in the society. Let them look well after their own expense, and they may safely trust private people with theirs. If their own extravagance does not ruin the state, that of their subjects never will."

I am not robbed by people who have more money than me. I am robbed by a government that wants to penalize my industry and give increasing portions of what I earn to people who do not emulate my principles, morals and ethics.

What have we come to? We once taught our young people the virtues of hard work, saving, personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions, chastity before and fidelity and commitment in marriage, honesty, integrity and virtue - not to mention the Ten Commandments (especially the one about not coveting that which belongs to your neighbor). We now teach them entitlement, victimhood, class envy and rights to other people's money. When one robs a bank, it's a crime. When government takes our money, it's called a tax. Same result.

There is something else about Clinton's speech that offends. She suggested that students at a technical high school are inferior to those of higher social rank. This, too, is typical white liberal bunk. Has it occurred to her that many students prefer technical careers - and some make an excellent living at them - to the jobs held by the elites and that some of those jobs (like politician) fit them for nothing of value and turn them into professional snobs?

Senator Clinton should consider the wisdom of a former president, who said, "The collection of any taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to the public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. . . . The wise and correct course to follow in taxation is not to destroy those who have already secured success, but to create conditions under which everyone will have a better chance to be successful." (Calvin Coolidge inaugural address, March 4, 1925)

Now there's a real economic vision!

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Hillary
Wonder how she managed to forget to hide her true self?

Hey, merry...
Have you not mastered the shift key? Just looking at your all-caps comments makes my head hurt. Tone it down, boy. I couldn't even read what you wrote.

I'm not surprised........
That is rather unlike her to make a slip like that. I guess she figured that since these were a bunch of stupid government-schooled kids that she stood to garner too much praise for any negative ripple effect to be significant- and unfortunately it won't be. It'll be bantered about in Conservative circles for a week or two, then it will be forgotten.

Outside of the overkill with caps, Merry go boy was right; what we are experiencing in our present state of government is an influx of generational Liberals within both parties, just that each candidate is infected with varying levels of it. Every candidate running has some significant part of their platform that is left of center. So the challenge for the electorate will be to first decide what issue(s) are most imperative to preserving our republic then cut through the rhetoric to determine which candidate best suits that philosophy. As long as we can stop the deluge of invaders, I feel as long as we can keep breathing, we can fight the other issues as opportunities arise.

Proletariat
One of my many ex-brothers-in-law was a card carrying Communist. He used to complain all the time about the difficulty of establishing communism in America because "we don't have any Proletariat."

Well, looks as if Madam duFarge is trying to remedy that situation. Fortunately, speaking like this to people in technical schools is a waste of time; these are kids that are going to end up making a tidy upper middle class living for themselves if they are industrious and they know it; their dream is not "We'll take those away from them some day" but "I'm going to have one of those some day."

Ask anyone but the Victim Class in America to which class he or she belongs, and the vast, vast majority will say "Middle Class." You find very few people, even factory workers, who will say "Working Class" although that is indeed the foundation of America and always will be.

In a country where a good secretary can make $65,000 per year, the only hope for a French Revolution in America is to keep on inciting the detrius at the bottom of the barrel. Hillary better focus on rousing the only rabble the Country has left: the Unions. They are the experts at launching the national pity party that leads to revolution.

The only thing she is forgetting is that there is a huge group of middle and working class people leaning on their rifles, just waiting for her and her myrmidion to make their day....

Anyone who would vote for Hillary....
has rocks in their head....

commie slogans
Hillary's "politics of meaning" quip from years ago sums up her shtick pretty well. Hold no office and be a yo-yo; get elected for something and feel good about yourself. Politics is a way to assuage boredom for folks who think they deserve to rule the world.

The trouble with the slogan, "From each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs," is that neither quality is knowable.
Nobody knows what "ability" is until after the fact. Does so-and-so have the "ability" to score touchdowns, discover medical advances, labor mightily for 10 hrs/day without fatigue, etc.? Who knows, until you observe the results?

Needs are even less measurable. People don't "need" much more than basic nutrition and shelter from the storm. We could all get our vaccinations, live in barracks and eat nutri-pellets like chickens in coops and still expect our threescore and ten. That's essentially what prison inmates do. Most people have more imagination than that, however, and souls that are motivated by infinite desires. Wants have a way of ballooning into needs.

After ten thousand years of civilization with progress accelerating markedly in the last two hundred years, all of a sudden people seem to "need" eight room detached homes, one car per adult, a dozen major appliances & reliable electricity to run them, 17 years of schooling, good paying jobs, abundant amusements for the idle hours, heroic & costly medical efforts to assuage every ill, and on and on.

People with common sense and some degree of humility assess their own abilities and needs, then come to an accomodation about what they might realistically achieve. People like Hillary with an infinite hunger for attention and an insatiable desire to tamper with other people's lives know no such restraint. Her interests are best served by stoking other people's wants and suggesting that only she can facilitate the getting of them. In short, she's running as Santa Claus to the riffraff.

"If you don't have the (fill in the blanks) job, education, doctoring, self-esteem, race or gender status, etc. etc. that you feel you deserve, vote for me. I'll take it from the greedheads and give it to you. We can all mingle happily in our 'village' and be equal together -- with the exception of me, Mother Superior, doling out the bennies and receiving your adoration in return."

Out in the open.
Now Hitlary is out in the open. I just wonder how many people (voters) realize she is rattling off socialist/communist doctrine. There are so many people out there now who vote only according to what they're going to get out of it.
The government schools start teaching kids victim mentality and how to manipulate the system to further the victim mentality at a young age. Unless their parents teach them otherwise, they believe that tripe and vote that way. Hopefully, enough of us will be out there reminding people of what she's saying and relating it to the source.
I think maybe Hitlary is in competition with B. Obama as to who can promise more.
Obama came out with his universal health care system and says it will "only" cost us $2500 each. Remember, every govt. program grows exponetially after it's birth so that would go up considerably when the system would become ineffecient and more costly.
I hope these two continue the race to promise more and more govt. control over our individual, private lives so we can see them exposed for what they really are.
As for the other candidates, look at their voting records and ignore the rhetoric.

It Takes a Village...
to raise a fortune for the elites and Hillary et al think we who work are the idiots. If you've ever had a protracted conversation with a lib, their disdain for common folks would choke you like a chicken. John Edwards decries the "two Americas", implying that those who have can only have by taking from those who don't. Aside from the illogic of that premise-how can anyone get rich by taking from those who have little if anything to take?- the blatant pandering to the envy of anyone else who has more than I do reveals the shallow nature of their efforts. Adam Smith, who Thomas quotes also held that the most powerful force in economics is the enlightened, or not so enlightened self interest of the public as a whole.

pic
that picture of Hillery is how I will look if shes elected!

The City
If it truly takes a village to raise a child, what happens to the kids that live in a city or in the country?

BrianR, please grow a brain
BrianR wrote: "Hillary v. the Bald Hillary AKA RINO Rudy means there's no one to vote for. I'll just make other plans for the day. If the only candidates are two liberals, what's the diff?"

If Hillary runs against Rudy, and Hillary wins, I'll hunt you down and shoot you in the freakin' head.

Hillary would be a complete and utter disaster for our country. She would tear up the Constitution, join us up with the World Court, turn our foreign policy over to the UN, institute Soviet-style socialism, criminalize forms of Christianity she doesn't like, enforce speech codes against conservative speech, and initiate another wave of criminal activity in the White House.

Rudy, by contrast, might sign a gun bill.

See a small difference?

If Rudy runs against Hillary and loses due to SHYTE-headed purists like you, I'll start dumping my coffee on every one of you FOOLS I meet.

Hillary and Sam Walton!

Do you think Hillary Clinton’s as a board member of Wal-Mart profiteering off child, prison and slave labor is a legitimate issue in 08? Do you think Hillary commitment to U.S. workers, small business, and environmental standards due to her profiteering based on exploitation while on the board is a real issue? Do you think Bill Clinton was influenced as President by Hillary to support and expand on this trade policy that puts profits ahead of human rights and Americans via the relationship with Sam Walton?

GP-Read an official biography of the Senator and you’ll find her six-month stint on a child-protection task force. Yet you won’t find her SIX YEARS on the board of directors of Wal-Mart Corporation. She may have earned a Grammy for “It Takes a Village to Raise a Child.” But it takes a Governor’s wife to provide cover for Wal-Mart’s profiteering off systematic wage-enslavement of children in its factories in South America.

Sam Walton called Hillary, “My little lady.” Sam paid her an eyebrow raising sum for a director - equal to 60% of her entire not-insubstantial salary as a lawyer. By contrast, Wendy Diaz (her real name), a 13-year-old in Honduras, was paid 25 cents an hour to make shirts for the “little lady’s” label.

Hillary’s rake-in was made possible by Wal-Mart’s 100% union-free operation and out-sourcing of 100% of its manufacturing, some to prison factories in China. Now, you could say that Hillary couldn’t hear the screams of the kiddies in Kamp Wal-Mart in Honduras. After all, she relied on the intelligence provided her by the President (of Wal-Mart).

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/hillary-and-sam-walton

AudiR10
Wrote: "The only thing she is forgetting is that there is a huge group of middle and working class people leaning on their rifles, just waiting for her and her myrmidion to make their day...."

I wish it were so, but it's not. I honestly don't believe our current America will rise up and defend itself against the soul-numbing pillow of socialism that Hillary will smother us with -- even if it brings with it multiple instances of SWAT teams breaking into homes of ordinary citizens to enforce Nanny-state laws, as it certainly will. We're already too used to socialism.

Maybe if it had happened 65 years ago...

Beware DNC plants, and stealth division
The DNC is certainly planting shrill fools on conservative blog sites. Beware anybody attempting to link "Marxist" with "Rockefeller Republican." That seems to be the assigned catchphrase today.

I don't like Rockefeller Republicans, myself... but they're not Marxists. Not even close. But the DNC certainly benefits from Republicans defecting from the party over possible candidates that are not pure enough conservatives to suit.

I don't like Giuliani's position on guns or abortion, and I don't trust Mitt Romney's conservative credentials, either... but I will RUN to the polls to vote for either, rather than accept the wave of blatantly anti-Constitutional legislation that we're ALREADY SEEING in Congress now that the Democrats have a slight edge in Congress.

Who buys this cr_p?
Ms. Clinton relies on the things that sound good to those who haven't studied any history or thought things through. Equality sounds like an ideal, until you really think about it (and never mind that it isn't achievable).

As for her statement about "the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none"...one has to find that most disingenuous from a liberal, who is all about special priveleges.

I do wonder to whom her claptrap appeals, and conclude that it can only be a) the very priveleged (who assume they will remain so--after all someone has to oversee the meting out of equality for the others) and b) the continual, perpetual victims.

AUDIR10: You are right on the money. So very well said. great post.

TK libertarian and BrianR
I keep hoping... analyzing... asking myself.. Is it wishful thinking or thoughtful consideration that leads me to beleive that some "real" conservative will come along and beat mccain/rudy/romney? This is one "social conservative" who'll vote for Rudy against Hitlery if it comes to it. Primaries are still a long way off though. Hopefully there'll be a better Republican choice.

You should note
Rudy cut welfare in NYC from 14% to 7% to 4%. That's not RINO liberalism.
He cut city taxes in NY and revived the tourist economy so the boom of the 90s was shared in NYC.
The city is the 4th largest economy in all the Americas. Of all candidates, he has the most solid record of leadership and executive experience.
He attacked "petty" street crime in order to address felonious measures more severely.
He was a fearless prosecutor of "the mob," something almost no prosecutor has done since.
For those "purist" conservatives who are waiting for Reagan to resurrect, you better vote Republican for whoever is the candidate or you will be responsible for the taxation for "national" healthcare, the complete bankruptcy of Soc. Sec. (which will start in earnest in 2010), and the humiliating military collapse in Iraq.
If any of you are old enough to remember, Vietnam's defeat brought high interest rates (the beginning of 18% credit cards), high unemployment (7-10%, which after 2 decades of near total employment will be a powerful shock), high inflation (8%), and low productivity (1-2%).
Presidents do not have all that much influence on social issues. Reagan never did. He proclaimed anti-abortion positions but did nothing to implement them. What Giuliani's abortion thought are become irrelevant in a national election.

Ms Clinton's welfare state
Fifty years ago, as a graduate student in Richmond, Va., I worked for the city's Welfare Department. I had a caseload of 150. Some of those welfare recipients were ashamed of it, and I constantly had to reasure them that it was no shame to be old, or sick and needy. But others, mostly Afro-Americans, were actually proud of it, and considered themselves as some sort of priviledge group, which indeed they were. Some of them were already third generation welfare recipients, and felt that it was the State's duty to support them. They made no effort to ever work again. I think government should indeed be involved in social action, but also it most make sure that such action doesn't destroy people, while attempting to help them. This is something which liberals like Ms Clinton should take in consideration. Welfare, and her concept of "one village", can be totally destructive of one's will to to work and to be on his/her own. God save American from people like Ms Clinton.

revenge
One small item that is often overlooked in this ongoing analysis of Mrs. Bill Clinton is her taste for revenge. If she is elected, the political landscape will be strewn with the those who had the temerity to stand against her. We all know that she will prevaricate until the end of time, but we sometimes forget her dedication to the destruction of those who oppose her. When the tally sheet of her destructive qualities is amassed, this bloodlust for revenge should be near the top.

inkling_revival
As one of those who is sick adn tired of voting for the lesser evil I decided 2-3 months ago that I would not go vote against Hillary, Obama, or Edwards. I will go vote for Hunter, Tancredo, or Paul. Anyone else on the ballot and I sit at home and drink on election day '08. Fred Thompson might be able to get me to go vote if he does enter and I end up liking him.

I would almost go vote for Hillary over Giuliani because I believe that 4 years of hillary with a demoncrat controlled congress would lead to civil war and the saving of this once great nation. Giuliani, Romney, McCain, etc will all just continue us twords the slow death we are already heading to.

The ONLY issues I'm looking at in this election is securing the border and restoring economic freedom. Once those are taken care of we can fight over the rest of the issues. Kill the IR$, put up a fence on the north AND south border, secure the borders properly, prevent people here illegally from being able to send money to other countries (Mexico and most European countries do this), when we find someone here illegal catapult them over the fence and fine their employeer $25K per illegal they are caught with. Cut off funding to sancuary cities. Cut federal spending and start paying off the national debt.

I'm soooo sick of hearing people tell me it would be cool to have a black/female/whatever President. It would be cool to have a GOOD President who understood his job was to look out for the American people, to protect them, and to improve their quality of life by making it more possible to achieve the American dream.

In the villiage.
Whenever I hear Mrs Clinton talkabout 'taking a villiage to raise a child', I keep thinking of the old 'Prisoner' televison series.
In this series, Patrick McGoohan plays aretired(not by choice)British secret agent, there after referred to as #6. He is spirited to a place referred to as 'The Villiage' populated by other retired agents as well as by their keepers. One of the problems #6 faces is telling the guards from the prisoners.
The Villiage is a total surveillence society,nd no dissent was allowed. You can almost see the beginnings of a similar society in Mrs Clinton's speeches.

her example
we can see by bill & hills trouble keeping their housekeepers that she actually puts her vision into practice. the media has run literally dozens of stories showing how the munificent sums they pay the "help" and their proclivity to give access to their media and bussiness contacts have raised the income levels of their "servants" to the point were they don't need the clintons to survive.
yes sir, we're all in it together and let me share some of this prosperity with you, I can hear it from good ole' hill.

Stang200s6

I agree. Just look what voting for the lesser of two evils brought us under Jorge. For example, yesterday he just promised 30 billion dollars for Aids prevention and treatment in Africa. How is throwing money at people, who believe having sex with a virgin will cure their HIV, going to solve anything? Unbelievable.

The only thing I disagree with you on is sitting home on election day. A more powerful message to send to our "leaders" is to vote for the Libertarian candidate, which is what I will do unless Dr. Paul gets the nod.

tomgee
tomgee...While I agree with everything you said in your post I think you missed something, ever notice that those that advocate the Marxist philosophy "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" the most are the ones that "need" more then anyone else?

The Socialist's Vision for Education
I was listening to a report concerning Shrillary's vision for education the other day, and it began to sound familiar.

Oprah Winfry recently opened a private girls academy in Africa, to the congratulations from the world, including from many on the right.

But why did it escape the conservative talk show hosts that the school is based on a promise she made to NELSON MANDELA? It does not seem to have escaped the MSM:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16435995/
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=2764436

The school keeps the children away from contact with their families, except for specified times, and reeducates them. Excuse me, but isn't this like the system in Communist China?

Now this might not be so bad, except that this is Oprah's vision for schools all over Africa, and yes, all over the world.

If Leftists take over such schools, as they have managed to do in all forms of education, then we have a serious problem. The Left knows that the only way to indoctrinate the next generation, and the next, is to get them while they are young. Since most of the children who likly to become leaders are born into conservative families (conservatives don't abort all their children), the Left feels a particular urgancy to get ahold of your children's hearts and minds at an early age.

If this is a concern for you, then it is essential that we stop Hillary from getting into the White House in 2009, or she will be bringing a whole new meaning to the notion of the "nanny state."

The Socialist Bogeyman
That's quite a leap there, Cal. Hillary talks about a govenment more focused on helping us reach shared goals, and you immediately conjure the socialist bogeyman. Hillary isn't even a liberal, much less a socialist. She's a corporatist Democrat. This socialist bogeyman stuff (and I see it a lot in conservative commentary) reminds me of what people said about FDR, who arguably headed off revolutionary impulses during the Depression and saved American capitalism by forcing it to be more accountable. His trust-busting cousin Teddy (a progressive Republican before that became an oxymoron) also did some of that 20 years earlier.

Billary
I believe that, while in college, Senator Clinton spent a great deal of time studying the methods of Lenin, Marx & Trotsky. Seems as though she had a plan.


Votes have consequences
Some of you who stayed home this last election need to rethink your strategy. If the republican candidate is a not a purist conservative, don't make the same mistake. There is still plenty of difference between the republican candidates and the democrat candidates. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot again.

Dems/Libs Are CAPITALIST...
This is another bs article by a far right relic that Democrats/Liberals are "socialist/communist" and "traitors" against the United States..what a load of horse manure.

Only in the minds of brainwashed repubs/cons could Ms. Clintons comments be construed as supporting some form of "socialistic/communistic"
government in the U.S.

Democrats are first of all free market capitalist. We love making money and pursuing the good life. Unlike repubs/cons we believe that the opportunities for sucess should be open for all americans not just the rich and priveleged. That is Ms. Clinton's message.

John
You have been in Oregon too long. Maybe you came from California. I don't want a government that is "more focused on helping us meet our shared goals". what a bunch of crap. The best government is the one that governs the least.

We lost the last election, (and I am not talking Republicans, but the American people) because on the idiots on this site and others that stayed home and didn't vote because they were mad about this thing or that thing, and we got Pelosi, Murtha, Hoyer and Reid. But that was well worth playing that extra round of golf wasn't it?

Stang, four years of the Hildabeast with the above clowns, not even a civil war will give us our country back. I for one, almost don't care who the Republican nominee is. We need to stop these people before we are living in the Soviet States of America.

John
"She's a corporatist Democrat."

You're probably right... but the term fascist has so many negative connotations that few polite people throw it around. However that is a more accurate description of her intended brand of totalitarianism. She doesn't necessarily advocate gov't ownership of everything- just control of everything by gov't and her political party. The Clinton's famously provide economic advantage to their "friends" through political power... like the fascists did.

And yes, Hillary does believe in class elitism and that she and other superior beings have a destiny to rule over the rest of us fools to ensure we get what's best for us.

ROFL!! Dems/Libs "Capitalist"??
Joseph Goebbels lives on, and he is a card-carrying member of the DNC!

Riddle me this, DNC operatives:

If Democrats were so capitalist, why then are they trying to resurrect the anti-capitalist "fairness doctrine"?

If Democrats were so capitalist, why then did they oppose Social Security reform that included the ability to privately invest part of the SS funds?

If Democrats were so capitalist, why then do they oppose any and all measures that would allow parents to use vouchers for private schools?

If Democrats were so capitalist, why then do they systematically oppose any and all tax cuts while they have yet to discover a tax hike they don't like?

I could go on and on, but why should I? The notion that Democrats/Liberals are capitalists is so ridiculous that anyone who even ATTEMPTS to state such a notion aloud with a straight face is either DANGEROUSLY stupid or DANGEROUSLY insane, and, in either case, ought to be forcefully remanded to a mental institution out of public safety concerns.

arcman
We can never win the cause by placing so little value on the operating philosophy of the politicians we elect.

I will not vote for Rudy and doubt I will vote for Romney. I will vote for my GOP representative and Senator.

This is probably a moot argument though. Thompson is more than likely running and maybe even Gingrich. I will be surprised if Thompson doesn't quickly take the lead and put at least one of the current top 3 out of the race before the end of the year.

The bigger issue though is putting real conservatives back in Congress starting with the Senate... which will be an uphill climb unless Iraq improves significantly.

beowolfe: a question
how much money are the clintons worth?

beowolfe: another question
how much money is john edwards worth?

beowolfe: two more questions..
what is the personal net worth of Speaker Pelosi and Senate majority leader Reid?

RE: Left Angle
Question: How much money is Fidel Castro worth?

Another question: How much money is Kim Jong-Il worth?

Yet another question: How much money is Hugo Chavez worth?

Of course the wacko socialists at the top are filthy rich. That's how they can "afford" to be socialists!

Oh Johnny Boy (in Oregon)
Good old Cal Thomas is just telling it like it is. Hillary is not a socialist? Then why pray tell does she belong to a group called “Democratic Socialist of America”? Just another right wing conspiracy Johnny? No sir Hillary is indeed a member of DSA and is also a proud student of radical communist Saul Alinsky. "Schrillary" as I call her, is just another closet commie who can’t be honest without loosing votes in middle America. Wake up and smell the red diaper doper baby Jonny before she flushes this countries economy into the black hole of Marxism.

beowolfe:you said they are socialist..
The article is about hillary clinton and democrats per se...none of the people you mention are members of the U.S. Democratic Party.

you and the author accuse them of being socialist/communist..

Is say thats a load of horse manure...

their MASSIVE bottom line NET WORTH makes the CAPITALIST WITHOUT A DOUBT...

Anyone that cant see THAT IS DANAGEROUS STUPID OR INSANE!!!LMAO

RE: Left Angle
I pointed out the FACT that they are socialist.

"The article is about hillary clinton and democrats per se...none of the people you mention are members of the U.S. Democratic Party."

Uh, point being? The three people I mentioned are socialists, and very rich. You claimed that the socialist Democrats are rich meand they are not socialists. I countered by pointing out the FACT that worldwide, powerful socialists are UNIVERSALLY rich, just like the socialist Democrats.

That you are so blinded by that FACT means you, yourself, are, IN FACT, dangerously stupid or dangerously insane. Period. End of sentence.

Three kinds of socialists:
There are only three kinds of socialists on this planet today:

1) Those who favor socialism because they seek the power that having full control over the lives of others gives. This category includes every single elected Democrat, many elected Republicans, and a whole host of wealthy leftists like George Soros.

2) Those who are extremely poor and blame everyone else for their being poor, and they wish to use socialism as a means to make everyone else suffer as much as they are. This is provably the most numerous category, and includes most of those who vote for those in category number one.

3) Those who are too naive or stupid to realize that socialism is universally destructive, and are either ignorant or willing to ignore the 3000 years of human history and all semblance of logic and reason that proves socialism is a monumental failure.

Those in categories 1 and 2 see socialism as a means of destroying ones opponents and a way to make thenselves more powerful.

Those in the third category are simply morons.

beowolfe: youre contradicting yourself
you said the dems i mentioned are socialist/communist.

so they got filthy rich by NOT

beowolfe: youre contradicting yourself
you said the dems i mentioned are socialist/communist.

so they got filthy rich by NOT being capitalist?


correction:
The following sentence:

"This is provably the most numerous category...."

Was supposed to read:

"This is *probably* the most numerous category...."

How dumb are you, Lefty?
Seriously, did your mommy drop you on your head when you were a baby?

Name JUST ONE powerful socialist in the HISTORY of the world who was not rich.

What's that? You CAN'T find even ONE? Oops, so much for your moronic assertion that because Democrats are rich, they can't be socialists!

I guess that you can't figure this out on your own simply proves you are a category 3 socialist, I guess.

H. R. Clinton
She has always been a socialist. Nothing new there.

Free-market capitalism has worked well for America. Socialism would be a disaster.

The Chinese understood that Marxist Socialism was not viable in the long term. That's one of the reasons for the Sino-Soviet split in 1955.

The Chinese believed in market-socialism. while the government still controlled the economy and the people, there were looser controls over the extent to which people could engage in commerce.

The USSR, on the other hand, had insisted no one could even grow their own vegetable garden; all produce had to belong to the state. Later, of course, that law was rescinded.

Mrs. Bill Clinton believes in communitarian market socialism. A large minority of Americans believe in CMS, too. They are stupid.


beowolfe...answer the question..
how did these "socialist/communist get filthy rich by NOT being Capitalist.

Repulbican/Con=FASCISM
Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.


Does definition NOT FIT THE BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS? LMAO

Ok, I'll answer:
Hillary Clinton got rich through insider trading of cattle futures and ripping off poor people in a massive real estate/loan scandal.

John Edwards got rich by chasing ambulances and suing doctors who have done nothing wrong based upon long-debunked junk science.

Nancy Pelosi married her money.

Harry Reid got rich dealing with mobsters and real estate scams.

Thanks for playing, now.

Lefty gone over the deap end:
"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator"

Republicans favor fair elections and a divided government.

Democrats, on the other hand, prefer ignoring election laws when it conveniences them.

"stringent socioeconomic controls"

Republicans favor capitalism and free trade.

Democrats favor strict ecnomic control by the government.

"suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship"

Republicans favor free speech.

Democrats prefer banning speech 30, 60, or 90 days prior to elections, and support the so-called "fairness doctrine" that ought only be imposed in areas where left wing speech does not dominate.

"and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Republicans think everyone ought be treated equally, and, in fact, the Republican Party was founded upon that very principle.

Democrats favor racial quotas and support such historically racist notions such as the minimum wage and abortion.

"Does definition NOT FIT THE BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS?"

As I've thoroughly demonstrated, the answer is IRREFUTABLY no.

saul alinsky?
freedomslave writes "no sir Hillary is indeed a member of DSA and is also a proud student of radical communist Saul Alinsky."

excuse me, you spittle drooling reactionary, but claiming that Saul was a communist rather demonstrates the depth of your ignorance. he was a great american who taught many people how to effect change in a socially unaware society. next, i suppose you will equate, his good friend and fellow teacher, C Wright Mills as a commie as well.

finally, i haven't heard any comments about how the gop led by this adminstration is now openly protecting big corporations from competition ... the example of bush and company slamming a small meat packer to protect the mega packers doesnt count as market manipulation i guess ... at least not to nimrods who still think this gop is anything like the ood gop.

beowolfe: whatever
if the above mentioned people are socialist/communist why arent they renouncing or
"redistributing" their wealth to the system?

Socialism:

Political-economic doctrine that, unlike Capitalism which is based on competition, seeks a cooperative society in which the means of production and distribution are owned by the government or collectively by the people.


I dont see or havent seen anything near this definition coming from the Democratic party leadership..I think you are delusional and DANGEROUSLY STUPID OR INSANE..LOL

Why don't they redistribute THEIR wealth
?

"if the above mentioned people are socialist/communist why arent they renouncing or
"redistributing" their wealth to the system?"

Again, did your mommy drop your head when you were a baby?

These category 1 socialists favor the imposition of socialism on OTHER people, not themselves. They see socialism as a means of capturing more power.

This is why category 1 socialists favor the redistribution of wealth through confiscatory income taxes. Category 1 socialists are already filthy rich, and don't even need to earn ANY income to stay rich. But through confiscatory income taxes, they can keep everyone else from becoming rich and having as much power as they do.

Open up a history book then open your eyeballs and read about the history of powerful socialists throughout history. Get your mommy to help you with the multisyllable words you might encounter in your reading. Then return and we can discuss just who is and is not a socialist.

"I dont see or havent seen anything near this definition coming from the Democratic party leadership."

Then you haven't been looking, kiddo.

Clinton is a communist.
You are confused regarding Ms. Clinton's comments.

Socialism is a subset of communist.

Karl Marx was first and foremost a communist.

Socialism is just watered down communism.

Clinton has always been a communist.

Call her what she is: an anti-american communist.


R-Democrats
It doesn't matter to me if anyone thinks I'm a purist or not. There is no way, shape, or form I'll ever vote again for a democrat that claims to be a republican. I voted third party the first time Bush ran because I felt he was a new world order snake in the grass and therefore not much better than Gore. In fact that is when I changed my voter registration to independant. I voted for Bush the second time. Kerry was too much of a nightmare. Now Bush's true colors have come out and he is a complete nightmare. He should be impeached and locked up.

This time unless we have Trancino, Duncan, or Paul running I'll vote third party again. As long as the Republican party keeps backing Dems with Rs behind their name they will not get my vote. If I wanted a Dem I'd vote for a dem.

I'm beginning to think there may be something to allowing the voters to elect all Dems so we can finally get down so low it will be obvious to even the die hart dems. Then we'll have a revolution and clean house of all of them. That includes the RINOS. Until the day the PTB in the Republican Party quit tossing RINOs at us the hi-jacked Republican party dosn't deserve anything. If we allow them to get away with it we deserve our punishment.

Voting for a Rino is like putting the frog in cold water. Voting for a Dem is like tossing the frog in boiling water. Are we any less dead if we die slowly?

Communist to the Core
To paraphrase a famous quote:
"The Greatest lie Hillary Clinton ever told was convincing The World she wasn't a Communist!"


communists all around
Hillary is an out of the closet communist. RINOs are just communists hiding in the closet.

Take you're pick.

Here'sa good way to judge the difference
While I maintain that there's hardly a dime's difference between the two major parties, there still IS a slight difference. Look at the amount of new legislation that is voted into law each year. 75%+ of it comes from democrats. Seems pretty socialist to me.

beowolfe: you are full of bs...
Democrats/Liberals are Capitalist who love making money and the pursuit of happiness.
We as a party do not seek to U.S. government.

For you to sit their and on one hand say that the democrat Congressional MILLIONAIRES I mentioned are socialist/communist in political philosphy and yet on the other hand didnt achieve their wealth thru capitalism is perposterous as is this statement by you:

"Category 1 socialists are already filthy rich, and don't even need to earn ANY income to stay rich. But through confiscatory income taxes, they can keep everyone else from becoming rich and having as much power as they do."



There is a not a single democrat among our leaders or members of Congress who advocates
any of this:

Socialism:

"Political-economic doctrine that, unlike Capitalism which is based on competition, seeks a cooperative society in which the means of production and distribution are owned by the government or collectively by the people."

We as a party do not favor converting the U.S.
government to any of this. You are a complete fool if you think so and yes republicans are by
nature FASCIST.

Inkling_Rev: If you're going to
hunt me down and shoot me, you'd better bring a big gun, and make your first shot count. It's been tried before, and I'm still here.

As to your dismissal of Giuliani signing a gun bill, no, there is no difference. I don't care who's trying to take away my rights, nor which right they're trying to steal. They don't get my vote.

Left Angle
"beowolfe...answer the question..
how did these "socialist/communist get filthy rich by NOT being Capitalist."

Like I said, Hillary is more of a fascist on the general spectrum than a socialist since she doesn't really want to nationalize everything... just control everything.

However, socialists get wealth and power the same way old south plantation owners did. They own and control the labor of others as a resource and allocate it as they see fit... to include providing themselves with a lifestyle they believe fitting their position.

A big difference between Hitler and Hillary is that he was a nationalist who in his own sick way did have a high regard for his people... She's just a powermonger who uses people with very little if any genuine benevolence.

Left Angle
BULL!

I own my own company. Every year it is more and more B.S. by government decree. It's getting very close to the time that while I might still own it..... it's the government that runs it. And the crap has grimey Dem hand prints all over it.

Left Angle
This is Hillary and the Dems to a T:

"Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,"

Liberals believe in centralization of power in big gov't, big labor, and very subtly in big business. Conservatives believe in small gov't and decentralization of power with the primary holder the indiviudual.

"stringent socioeconomic controls,"

That is what liberals have done for about 70 years through the "progressive" income tax and tax system in general as well as gov't regulation.

"suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,"

Ever heard of the "Fairness Doctrine"? Who in fact dominates mass media and the education establishment? Hint: It ain't conservatives.

"and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

It is liberals who make a practice of dividing people by class and organizing those with a gripe against those seen as "privileged" whether they be whites, Christians, conservatives, "the rich", or whoever.

"A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control."

That is liberalism in a nutshell.


"Does definition NOT FIT THE BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS? LMAO"

Laugh ignorantly all you want but it only applies insomuch as they abandoned principle to agree with liberalism. FTR, why not give us a few examples where Bush has done any of those things much less holds a political philosophy of government that requires them. Hillary DOES and makes no bones about it.

Moreover
"suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,"

Who is it demanding that certain people be excluded from influencing gov't policy because of their conservative convictions that they openly acknowledge as religious in origin?

beowolfe: Top five socialist/commies
you stated:

"Those who favor socialism because they seek the power that having full control over the lives of others gives. This category includes every single elected Democrat.


The top five millionaires in Congress

1.John Kerry(D-Mass)senate $750 million
2.Herb Kohl(D-Wis)senate $243.15 million
3.Jay Rockefeller(D-WV)senate $200 million
4.Jane Harman(D-Calif)house $172 million
5.Darell Issa(D-Calif)house $140.86 million

You'll notice they are all Democrats..so youre saying all the above are examples of people who are advocates of this "socialistic" philosophy you state?

HILLARY..and power
ANY system which places more power in Hillary's grasp is the system she will support.. Imagine, this same Hillary, speaking AGAINST special privlege,when, without any elected athority, or any official government title, ie sec. of state,or treasury,(and without any formal knowledge of medicine or the health care system,except like John Edwards having sued some doctors)assumes clete control and athourity over the entire health care delievery system in the US..(about 17% of our entire economy!!!)
Imaginewh she would do with just a small amont of political power...IMAGINE IF SHE CONTROLS THE WHOLE ENCHILADA

Neofascist Democrats

Democrats want to take my money. (and they do!)
Republicans want me to have more of MY MONEY.

Democrats want to ban foods they don’t like and limit peoples choices.
Republicans don’t give a hoot about what you eat.

Democrats want to take my gun so only the criminals are armed.
Republicans want ME to decide if I am mature enough to own a gun.

Democrats want to limit my free speech and only allow the Media to decide what speech is acceptable.
Republicans want the constitution to decide what free speech is acceptable.

Democrats want to decide who is chosen for a job by their race, or by their gender or by their chosen sexual proclivity.
Republicans want the businesses to decide who is chosen for a job by their experience and by their education.

Democrats want to stop arresting people they like who break the counties laws because liberals should get to decide what laws need to be obeyed and who exactly needs to obey them.

So exactly is the Fascist again?

sjt: The Iraq War...
and the way the bush administration reacts to its critics, the way he governs as a dictator rather than president.

Left Angle
You should get into the habit of conceding defeat whenever your illogical, ignorant and absurd arguments are unequivocally shattered. As, beo demonstrated, fascism is more in line with the platform advocated by liberal Democrats. True conservatives believe in MINIMAL government, a concept that is an anathema to all totalitarian ideologies. The funny thing is that you were stupid enough to cite the definition of fascism. In doing so you confirmed what we are saying about Clinton, which is that she’s a socialist (fascism is a kind of socialism).

Left Angle Confused
.5.Darell Issa(D-Calif)house $140.86 million
That should be an R instead of a D, but I suspect you know that.
5 of the next 6 are Republican but that doesn't fit your trope as well does it?
Left Angle confused, not likely. Dishonest, almost certainly.

Left angel
Left angel...Stealing and cheating for your wealth is NOT capitalism despite what you may think.

Hey Left Angle
You seem to be having a basic understanding of what Beowolfe is trying to tell you.

Read Slowly.

It makes no difference how they got their money as to what their political philosophy is.

Take John Kerry for instance. He got his money by marrying two very rich women.

He has his money, and intends to keep it, while taking money from people who work for it and give it to folks who will vote for him.

The Clinton's didn't really get "rich" until after they were in the white house. They got their money from many places, not all of it from hard work and industry. Pedaling political influence can be very rewarding financially.

Also, I would bet that the richest man in Cuba is Castro, the richest man in the soviet union was at one time Joseph Stalin, the richest man in china at one time was Mao. The richest man in Iraq at one time was Saddam. Just having a gob of money does not mean that you are a capitalist.

It is what you want to do with other people's money that defines your political philosophy.

Those in power
Remember, socialism serves only those in power and exempts those in power from the socialism forced on the rest of the population.

If you notice, all of those proclaiming socialism, although avoiding the exact term, are those who also covet personal power.

Does Castro need a bigger house, better food, more cigars or indoor plumbing more than a sugar cane cutter? Is Hugo Chavez going to live in the conditions the majority of the population lives in? Do the Chinese leaders need more benefits than those who live in the outlying areas?

I rest my case.

RE: Left Angle
"For you to sit their and on one hand say that the democrat Congressional MILLIONAIRES I mentioned are socialist/communist in political philosphy and yet on the other hand didnt achieve their wealth thru capitalism is perposterous"

Uh huh. So you believe it is a capitalist endeavor to achieve wealth by marrying into it, committing fraud, conspiring with the mob, or accusing doctors of acts they did not commit? Perhaps THAT is why you think Democrats are "capitalists".

That Democrats fit PERFECTLY into my definition of "category 1 socialists" is not preposterous. It is IRREFUTABLY TRUE!

Take, for example, Ted Kennedy. He is one of the leading advocates of the "death tax". It just so happens that he, himself, is filthy rich ONLY because his parents were able to stash away their wealth in ways to avoid paying and estate taxes upon their death. Ted Kennedy wants to prohibit OTHERS from doing EXACTLY that, though, but simultaneously refuses to give up any of his wealth.

Nancy Pelosi (married into her wealth) claims to be a big supporter of the environment and the poor, yet at the same time the golf course she and her husband built is in total violation of a series of environmental regulations, and is also in violation of the agreement they signed that required a certain percentage of public passes to their golf course.

Again, the list goes on and on. The IRREFUTABLE, UNDENIABLE, and DEMONSTRABLE fact remains that while these people all support socialism as a means of gaining more power, they themselves REFUSE to live on the same principles they wish us to live under. Repeat "Nuh uh!" all you want. No amount of "Nuh uhs!" can EVER change facts.

"There is a not a single democrat among our leaders or members of Congress who advocates
any of this:"

Incorrect. Your repetition of "Nuh uh!" doesn't change that FACT.

"and yes republicans are by
nature FASCIST."

It's just too darn bad that accoding to your own definition, you can't come up with any evidence whatsoever of this, yet I had previously proven that Democrats, though, are fascists.

"You'll notice they are all Democrats..so youre saying all the above are examples of people who are advocates of this "socialistic" philosophy you state?"

Yes.

Left Parabola
Left Parabola, The Honorable Mr. Clinton went into Haiti with 88% of the American people opposed to the action. He also backstabbed the Serbians in Bosnia with 65% of the American people opposed to it. The only reason you are opposed to the current president fighting terrorists is Iraq because the media plays you like a violin. Were you sir, opposed to the action prior to our initial invasion? (We had 88% of the American public in favor of attacking Iraq) if you were and now you are not then you are a weak minded marionette with the media pulling your strings to dance. If on the other hand you sir, were part of the 12% of American hating traitors who wouldn’t allow the country to defend itself under any circumstances then I admire your conviction. Your side has done a marvelous job of undermining American security, committing treason (without a hint of prosecution) and helping our enemies. Well done sir, well done.

Cal: No difficulty at all..
I understand exactly what beowolfe is saying.
I dont think he understand what I am saying.

He calls EVERY Democrat in Congress a socialistic communist..

I say to that he is FULL OF BS...

READ the definition of SOCIALISM..

I dont believe a single democrat in congress
advocates any of that..

his and cal thomas argument is total bs..

samesame whatever
You all are getting too wrapped around the axle over ism’s and economics. Hildabeast is just plain bad news. To me she represents yet another corrupt politico, drunk on money and power, out to grift me of what little I have for the betterment of others, namely her buddies and herself, when my own margin of survival is too slim to afford yet another thief nibbling away money.
Fred Thompson is correct in assuming people are growing cynical of the two parties’. I can tell you that out of the dozens of people I regularly interact with, not a single one trusts Hildabeast, the Democrat party nor do they trust the Republican Party. The common theme I hear is “NOT ANOTHER PENNY!” This doesn’t bode well for grand schemes of wealth redistribution or a socialist utopia.
The person who promises to starve the Federal beast, render it down and reduce its meddling including non governmental powers running it, showing respect to the individual will in turn receive respect and the presidency. Hildabeast represents more of the incompetent, gluttonous, meddling nanny state. Her election to the presidency would only mandate a continued march to greater corruption, a more deeply entrenched parasitic managerial elite, increased divide and conquer social engineering and meddling via anarcho tyranny and yet another step towards the eventual enslavement of the lower classes.
America desperately needs to back away from this 70 year experiment with the dead end of corrupt neo-feudal socialism.

Fascism is prevelent in corrupt individuals. It's in the nature of the corrupt to use those philosophical tools that best gain them more power. Only a fool cannot see that the Democrat party also contains within it the corrupt, therefor, Fascists.

Lesser of two evils
It is said that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

That may very well be true.

The thing to consider, though is the magnitude of evil that either one is likely to perpetrate on us and how long it will take the country to recover from the depredations that either is likely to inflict.

If you are an average middle class income or upper middle, you can expect that with Hillary in office, after taxes you will be a lot worse off than you are now.

If any of you folks are old enough to remember what Jimmy Carter did to the economy, just substitute Hillary and you will be close to what it will look like.

She has already stated her intentions to raid corporate profits to fund her social programs.

One of the things that her an Bill were contemplating while Billary was still in the white house was for the government to periodically levy 10% taxes against pension and 401k funds to generate more tax revenue.

So, you have managed to save up 2, 3, 4 hundred thousand in your 401K or combination of pension and 401k accounts, and along comes Hillary every 4 or 5 years, as needed, and 20, 30, or 40 thousand dollars.


beowolfe...opinions as facts..
you stated:

"Uh huh. So you believe it is a capitalist endeavor to achieve wealth by marrying into it, committing fraud, conspiring with the mob, or accusing doctors of acts they did not commit? Perhaps THAT is why you think Democrats are "capitalists".

That Democrats fit PERFECTLY into my definition of "category 1 socialists" is not preposterous. It is IRREFUTABLY TRUE!"

i would argue that you really have a hard time distinguishing fact with YOUR OPINIONS..you need to reread YOUR interpretation on how YOU THINK THESE PEOPLE ACHIEVED WEALTH...they are OPINIONS NOT FACTS...LMAO

Hey left angle
Please explain what capitalist activities were used by John Kerry and the Clintons to achieve their wealth?


On treason:
"committing treason (without a hint of prosecution)"

Treason, for all intents and purposes, does not exist as a convictable crime any more in the US.

This notion roots way back to some ridiculously narrow definition of treason by Cheif Justice John Marshall.

As you may know, Vice President Aaron Burr murdered Senator Alexander Hamilton in a duel.

What you may not know, though, is what happened after that infameous murder.

Following the murder, Aaron Burr fled prosecution. While on the run, Burr began plotting an attempt to annex either parts of the western territories or New Orleans (no one is 100% positive exactly what he was up to, but we do know it involved an armed takeover of part of the US). Luckily, one or more of the people he was conspiring with got cold feet and turned him in.

Even though Burr was actively plotting an attack against the United States with the stated intent of annexing part of the country, Cheif Justice John Marshall refused to consider such actions treason.

Since then, there have been only about a dozen attempts at charging someone with treason, virtually none of them resulting in convictions. This is, of course, why the Rosenbergs were charged with, convicted of, and hanged for espionage, and NOT treason. Espionage is a crime that is possible to get a conviction for, whereas treason is not.

On a not unrelated note, it is interesting to note that the origins of the modern day Democratic Party can be traced directly back to Aaron Burr himself.

Aaron Burr was one of the most influencial people at a social club known as Tamany Hall, in New York City. Burr transformed Tamany Hall from just a simple social club for the elite into a political machine. Tamany Hall was the most powerful political organization in New York, and was even responsible for Thomas Jefferson's and Aaron Burr's presidential and vice presidential victories. It was influence from Tamany Hall got elected every single president that was a member of the party that eventualy came to be known as the Democratic Party up until about the 1960s, when it finally lost its political clout.

So one could say that the Democratic Party was founded by a murderous traitor. Is anyone actually shocked by this? I know I'm not.

RE: Lefty
"i would argue that you really have a hard time distinguishing fact with YOUR OPINIONS..you need to reread YOUR interpretation on how YOU THINK THESE PEOPLE ACHIEVED WEALTH...they are OPINIONS NOT FACTS...LMAO"

Oh really? I don't have to state my opinions on this subject. I have FACTS -- you know, those little things that make dolts like you quiver in your boots? -- to back me up.

What do you have? Nothing but a series of "Nuh uhs!"

beowolfe: what you have
is a serious misunderstanding of the definition of the word SOCIALISM means and a very obvious hatred of Democrats and liberals..and as a matter of FACT I would would argue by your tatements in here today that you are very IGNORANT as to what they stand for and furthermore you dont know what the h*ll you are talking about in reference to either.

Have a nice day...

beowolfe
Re. Treason conviction.

Wasn't one of the women known as tokyo rose during WW2 an american citizen of japanese descent who was in Japan at the out break of WW2 and was forced into her famous radio role.

After ww2, I believe that she was, in fact, convicted of treason and given a fairly hefty jail term. I believe that a recent president eventually gave her a pardon.

left angle
I think that your problem is that you don't understand the difference between how much money a person has, how they got it, and what their political philosophy is.

These extremely rich folks, Clinton, Kerry, Edwards, Soros, Kennedy, and most of the lefities from hollywierd have a different view of socialism than probably you do.

These folks see socialism as them being the ones deciding who they will take money from and who they will give it to. They don't envisiage that their personal money will be in jeopardy, because they will be in control.

To them, they see a "robin hood" society, where they take from the rich and give to the poor, less about 75% for handling fees.


Boiling the frog
The discussion: Hillary is the greater of two evils. If she's elected we're doomed. A RINO candidate is acceptable if nominated.

Here's the problem. Hillary, if elected, could sponsor lousy programs that would revulse the American people (remember Hillarycare?), and later be reversed by following elections.

Elect the RINO candidate, and you'll have incrementalism set in, the rights still disappear, and people will have nowhere to turn, because the RINO IS the supposed alternative. The GOP continues its leftward drift, and the bus still ends up going over the cliff, only a little more slowly.

The frog just sat there while it boiled to death.

And still he returns!
"is a serious misunderstanding of the definition of the word SOCIALISM means and a very obvious hatred of Democrats and liberals..and as a matter of FACT I would would argue by your tatements in here today that you are very IGNORANT as to what they stand for and furthermore you dont know what the h*ll you are talking about in reference to either."

Oh, the irony!

So while the Pelosis and Kennedys and Reids of the world can all be screaming for ever higher taxes to pay for their ever expanding series of "free stuff", you can stand there and yell "they're not socialists!!!!!!!!"

And you're saying that **I** don't know what I'm talking about? I think I hit the nail right on the head (no pun intended) when I asked whether your mommy dropped you on your head as a baby.

Here's a little fact for you to nibble on:

When Nancy Pelosi (you know, the one you are claiming ISN'T a socialist) took over as her party's leader in the house, she was a ranking member of a group called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus is an all-congressman branch of the Democratic Socialists of America, which, in turn, is the American branch of Socialist Internationale, the world's largest socialist organization.

So tell me how you can resolve your kooky notion that she isn't a socialist when she, herself, openly admits she is a socialist by belonging to a socialist organization?

Like I said, facts make dolts like you quiver in your boots. That's why I like sharing them with the likes of you.

No Worries
Friends I have no worries about Hillary Pig In a Pant Suite Clinton. She and Obama are not electible. I don't care what the polls, or the media, or beltway, or pundints, or columists, say she is not electible. Her tired dry socialistic message is not going any where with most of the American people. And yes, I happen to know what socialism is thank you very much.

France's election over immigration and government tax/spending reform should be of great comfort to us in America. I'm not worried. Fred Thompson or Rudy can clean her clock. Clinton is part of a liberal rich elite which includes the RINOs.

Oh a note on the RINOs, they are not that huge a part of our party. They are very small and just happen to comprise a number of our key representatives. Lets through them out at the primaries and national elections.

RE: cal
I never said NO ONE is ever convicted of treason. I merely pointed out that it is, for all practical intents and purposes, a virtual impossibility to get a treason conviction regardless of the acts committed. Occasionally some slip through, but they are about as rare as a rational Democrat.

Right now there is a couple of people awaiting their trial for treason -- people who conspired with known terrorists, who were plotting massive acts of terrorism. They haven't made too many headlines yet, but eventually when the cases get under way they might get reported on more. I can guarantee, without any doubt whatsoever, that they will not be convicted no matter how massive the pile of evidence against them is, no matter how many witnesses testify to their actions or whether they even confess in open court to their actions (the Constitution requires either the eye witness testimony of 3 people or a confession in court for a treason conviction).

BrainR
I absolutly agree. A RINO if nominated will be prefered to the socialist Hillary. I am going to support Rudy if Fred does not run. But since I am sure that Fred will, he is my first choice and the one I will support in the primaries. But hell to keep the Democrat/socialists from the White House I'll vote for who ever the GOP nominates.

Let's see
Hillary give up her riches, howeve ill gotten they are, to the poor. You gotta love how she stands up there telling people all the "programs" she will have going if elected. Its easy to make promises if someone else has to pay for them.

Drew: Wow!
You totally misinterpreted my post!

No WAY do I vote for Giuliani, not ever, not for anything. He's WORSE than Hillary, because he's the kind of candidate that nudges the entire GOP leftward.

I thought my post was clear; obviously I was wrong.

Cheap labor begets illegal immigration
It is attitudes such as Cal Thomas' that prevent our lawmakers from devising and implementing solutions to curb illegal immigration. As long as business needs inexpensive labor, which is driven by demand for inexpensive goods and services, illegal immigration will prosper and US jobs will continue to be shipped to China. Now THERE is a good economic policy, Mr. Thomas.

Boiling the Frog
Your approach is just a little too simplistic.

Hillary care only went in the crapper because there was a republican congress.

With a Hillary presidency and a democrat congress, it would not make a difference how revulsed the populace at large would be, the damage would be fatal

Even a RINO president can only incrementalize for 4 years, then maybe we get a choice of a real conservative.

With a Hillary presidency/democrat congress, I guarandamntee that the voter rules will be relaxed to allow illegal alien aliens, convicted felons, and dead democrats to vote as often as they like.

Once you have at least 51% of the voters on the dole, it won't make any difference how good of a conservative comes along, the Democrats will have a lock on the govt forever.

Cal: Cart before the horse
Why was there Republican congress? Because of Clintonista policies and the Contract with America.

As to incrementalization with a RINO, it only will work in one direction: leftward. That's what I mean by boiling the frog. Hillary will boil the water first; the frog will jump out.


Cal: BTW
Your last para is spot on. That's why amnesty must fail. Now!

"When the people awake to the fact they can vote to themselves the largesse of the Treasury, democracies fail". Tytler.


Rino's
Bush is not a conservative by any means or any stretch of the imagination.

That said, had Algore, John Kerry, Hillary, or John Dean been in the oval office during the last 6 years, the country would be a hellofa lots worse off than it is now.


Brian,
My prediction is that amnesty will NOT fail. The newly minted citizens will vote for as much of a handout as they can get, and the deal will be done.

The frog may jumb out of Hillary's pot, but it will only land in the fire.

Cal: No doubt
I voted for Bush twice, and don't regret it.

However, he also stood up for the 2nd Amendment, credit where's it's due.

That's my litmus test.

Hillary's New Village
As to "special priviliges for none", does this mean Hillary and Bill will return their excess pensions above what Social Security would have given them in retirement? Dismiss their Secret Service security details? Fly commercial?

What a lot of oxen night soil.

Hillary's vison, as Mr. Thomas says, has been tried...and tried...and tried...FAILED, FAILED FAILED. Zimbabwe is the latest poster child for Marxist theory, and Venezuela will get there when the oil runs out, or maybe before if the pressure from the collapse of the remainder of the economy destabilizes the country so badly even Chavez having all the guns will not be enough.

Karl Marx' best idea was to die. Unfortunately, he didn't think of it soon enough.

Cal, I'm thinking
it's DOA in the House.

The Founders in their infinite wisdom (Thanks, dead white guys!) made the House face election every time. The Southern Dems who gave the majority all ran against amnesty. I don't think they want one-term careers.


As soon as amnesty is a done deal
both parties will fall all over themselves trying to buy their votes with your money. The Democrats will make a better offer, only because republican candidates will be under some criticism from their constituency.

The Democrats will be under no such burden.

I don't like this scenario, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it will play out that way.

For those guys that said they would be leaning on their rifles, Janet Reno will be called out of retirement to burn down your homes.

BrainR
Sorry about that, I did not mean to misrepresent you at all, my apologies. To be honest I am really uncomfortable with Rudy, I do think he is a bit too liberal. I just really no that we won't have any hope under Hillary and I would want the lesser of two evils. Believe Thompson is my guy. And if Hunter or Tancrato had the money and name recognition to get the nomination I would support them too over Rudy.

I only mention Rudy as a very last ditch and expreme effort to keep the extreme left from the White House. Though I don't want the GOP to move in that direction.

Brian,
I hope you are right on amnesty, and I am wrong, but I'm not holding out any hope.

Either way,
If Hillary gets the nomination, the liberal media will immediately paint her as a right leaning centrist.

Joe and Jolene average, who don't actually understand anything about politics will fall for the meida hype hook, line, and sinker.

Cal and BrainR
I believe that the amnesty bill won't get out of the Senate that enough real conservatives and some labor union tied Democrats will stop it. But if it makes it too the House I think it is dead there for sure.

I would hate to have a RINO president again but like Cal said I would prefer it over Clinton and the Democratic Congress, the damage would be unimagenable. We lived with Bush this long, and I too voted for him when faced with the alternatives. I hate to make those choices but at the end of the day what can you do. But if we start early in the primaries and put up guys like Thompson we'll do far better.

bewolf: This statement is false
and i would challenge you to prove it to be correct.

"The Congressional Progressive Caucus is an all-congressman branch of the Democratic Socialists of America."

One thing for sure about Hillary
I would bet dollars to doughnuts that your 2nd amendment rights would be in the dumpster by the end of her first week in office.

beowolf: a question
you stated:

"So while the Pelosis and Kennedys and Reids of the world can all be screaming for ever higher taxes to pay for their ever expanding series of "free stuff", you can stand there and yell "they're not socialists!!!!!!!!"

Can you produce statements of the above calling for "higher taxes" to pay for their ever expanding series of "free stuff"


is anybody here actually for Hillary
besides left angle?

Drew/Cal: You think it was bad
under Bush?

Wait and see what a Giuliani presidency would be like. These will be the good old days. You'll be wanting to slice your wrists.


Cal: Guns gone under RINO Rudy,
too.

That's why I'll never vote for him.


BTW, other "supporters"
of the 2nd Amendment:

John Kerry
John Edwards
Al Gore
Chuck Schumer
Dianne Feinstein
Barbara Boxer
Sarah Brady
etc etc etc

They have ALL made statements saying they "support" the 2nd Amendment.

So does RINO Rudy.

Big deal. His actions speak volumes.

Left Angle -- Too Easy

Democrats call for higher taxes

Lets start with John Edwards


http://newsbusters.org/node/12435

John Edwards, on the other hand, must think that the Clinton Administration and the congress at the time raised taxes too little, because he said on Sunday that he wants to go beyond what was done in 1993 (link requires registration; HT Colorado Right):

Democratic presidential hopeful John Edwards said yesterday raising taxes for higher-income families back to their levels under the Clinton administration is a floor, not a ceiling, and he would consider even higher tax increases.

"What I believe is the starting place is to go back to the Clinton levels," Mr. Edwards told reporters after addressing the 2,000 delegates to California's state Democratic Party convention.

Brian,
Rudy would have to make a deal with, at least, the NRA to get their supprort. He would be restrained more so than Hillary would.

With Hillary, your rights are gone for sure.

He'll never get NRA support
Evwery GOP presidential candidate has won the election whenever, and only if, they have the endorsement of the NRA.

The NRA hates him.


Qualify
Every GOP candidate since 1980.

Case in point
NRA supported Papa Bush's first run and he won. They refused to endorse hios reelection bid, and he lost.

We gun nuts vote our guns, and we make a difference. Even Bubba Clintoon credited us with Gore's loss.


If Rudy wants to win
He will have to make a deal with the NRA.

I don't think that rudy is ideologically opposed to guns, like many politicians are. I believe that being the NY politico that he was, it was part and parcel with the job, his neck was not on the line if he voted against 2nd amendment.

I think that Rudy is smart enough to know that he cant win without 2nd amendment supporters, and not being ideologically opposed, I don't think that he would renig, particularly if he wanted a 2nd term.

Hillary, on the other hand, I believe, would send Janet Reno's replacement around to your place to burn it down.

cal: a resonse..
I asked beowolf to provide proof of what he charged against democrats pelosi, reid and kennedy and thus far he hasnt answered.

what you posted about edwards doesnt answer the above either about "raising taxes for free stuff"
as beowolf put it.


Bush 1 didn't realize what it would cost
him to irritate the 2nd amendment crowd.

I think that any new GOP hopefuls realize what it costs to cross them.

Left Angle
How old are you?

How many elections have you voted it?

Left Angle
You would have to be born yesterday, and not have read anything serious about hillary to not realize that she is a socialist with serious communist leanings.


Choices
Hey BrianR, you are right about one thing I do not want a RINO worse than Bush but I'm not sure Rudy would be worse than Hillary. Rudy would lower taxes, and fight the war. We know Hillary the Horrible would not. Also Rudy talked about strict constructionist judges and that the border laws on the books including that fence act from last year need to be enforced.

I heard him speak on guns, abortion, and gay marriage. Case in point he said that those are issues that have to be left up to the states to decide, by way of federalism and that the federal government had no business in them.

Still, I support the NRA and their oppinion is important. Rudy in many ways makes me extremely unfortable. That is why I am with Fred Thompson all the way. I am positive and with no doubt that he will run. Then we can put these so called front runners out of our minds. I hope.

Cal & other repubs/cons
I would like you to respond to the following:

Please define the words:

liberal

socialism

in YOUR own words.

Definitions
Liberal: any person being to the left of the political spectrum, one who favors larger government regulations and control of private acitivities such as business and property rights. Is also favors more extensive government planning on the federal level and who opposed to reduction in the government beauacracy.

Socialism: political ideology left of the center of the political spectrum. It advocates the authority of the state (federal not state or local). Works towards the redistribution of income through the tax system and seeks to errode personal property and individual rights of the citizenry. Favors all anti-religious efforts and seeks to eliminate gun ownership. All in all it works to serve the state and its continued expansion and growth.

Happy Left Angle?

left angle:

For a better definition of a socialist who is in lock step with the Democrat party, read up on Bernie Sanders of Vermont. You can Google him for the information.

bama

Please Google Saul Alinsky. He has taught the Socialist party line for decades.

Why do you think otherwise?

Left angle
"In a speech at Manchester School of Technology in New Hampshire, Clinton said it's time to replace President Bush's "ownership society," which she called an "on your own" society, with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity"

In an ownership society, you own your house, your business, you decide where you want to live, work, etc.

Hillary says that she wants us to live an a society with shared responsibility and prosperity, not an ownership society"

She does not want you to own your own house, your means of livlihood, and own the fruits of your labror. She wants to take the fruits of YOUR labor and distribute them as she sees fit.

Of course, since she will be among those who are "more equal" than others, she won't be participating in sharing her stuff with you.

Just as I thought..
What repubs/cons have done is basically taken the words "liberal" and "socialism" and butchered them into a totally negative connotation/meaning that has little to do with what the words actually mean.

from Websters new world dictionary:

Liberal:

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.


Socialism:

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


RE: Left Angle
I was told once never to teach a pig to sing...it wastes my time and irritates the pig. Arguing with Left Angle is similar...wastes time, but it this case it’s the little swine doing the irritation with his inane squealing.

I was also told once not to argue with an idiot. ‘Nuff said.

Hey left angle
What is your definition of Socialism?

Are you for or against socialism?

Do you prefer to own the fruits of your labor, or do you think that the government has the right to tell you how much of what you earn you can keep, and they will take the rest.

Would you prefer to own your own home, or would you prefer that the government tell you what kind of quarters you can live in and how much rent you must pay.

Cal please...
you are distorting Sen. Clintons words into something she ISNT saying..and youre doing it by design..Because you HATE her...it's nothing but more "fearmongering" from the right wing.

How in the heck do you think Hillary Clinton on her own is gonna covert the U.S. government and society to a socialist/communist? GET REAL DUDE and COME BACK TO REALITY..LOL

If Hillary Clinton was elected President I dont have a doubt that she would would govern IN THE CENTER just as her husband former President Bill Clinton did while he was president.

left angle:

Darrell Issa is the Republican representative from the 49th District in California.

He made his millions the "old fashion way". His web site is www:issa.house.gov for more information.

Sooner: do me a favor...
go take a loooong jump off a short pier...

anyone that buys into the lunatic right wing nonsense going on in TH needs to have their brains checked out..

you people are clearly delusional and out to lunch...

yeah, I enjoy coming in here because it's entertaining. I cannot believe some of the stuff you right wing lugnuts ACTUALLY believe to be true...too funny.

left angle: your post at 4:25 PM

In a war you fight to win.

Yes, CIC will do whatever they think is necessary to win given the circumstances they find themselves in.

They do that so our country can continue to have freedom.

As soon as the war is won, the Patriot Act will no longer be necessary.

Down the Way to the Social Way
If Cal Thomas has read the comments posted to his essay, he must be very happy at the discourse he started. He's correct in his analysis, of course, but the true import of what he says seems to be in the diverging sentiments posted to the thread.

Beowolfe and LeftAngle had a spirited exchange. No one can doubt that. Beowolfe did an excellent job cutting LeftAngle to pieces. The trouble is that LeftAngle can't accept it due to a non-understanding of what's going on. Sorry Beowolfe, but you'll never get through to LeftAngle with logic and facts. Even a hefty 2x4 won't do any good. When a philosophy like Liberalism/Socialism defies logic and refuses to accept facts, any adherent to it won't accept either in an argument/discussion.

In any case, you did an excellent job. Kudos to you.

Mr D, don't expect Merry_go_boy to change in anyway. Just try to ignore him. I do. He likes to capitalize [the cyber way of shouting] nonsense in numerous threads. With luck, he'll fade away with the evening Sun.

Professor Chin, if you agree with Merry-go-boy, I suggest you move your comments over to the Daily Kos or the Huffington Post where they're bound to receive a friendly reception.

Gabby, please do some study on the terms 'socialist', 'socialism', 'communist', 'communism', 'capitalism', 'free market', 'freedom of---you name it.' I think you need a real in-depth study in order to recognize the error of your ways. Many of the other posters have an excellent grounding in the meanings of these terms, and their comments prove it. Your comments prove you don't.

Freedomslave, you posted an excellent point.

I might add a few sentiments on corporate profits. Many people over the years have invested in the stockmarket, corporate paper---whether bonds or stocks. These people are average Americans, and a lot of them are retired and depend on their dividends. We all know that Social Security is not sufficient---in fact it's doing exactly what it should do in regards to these people. It provides a supplement to their own retirement income.

Anyway, these people depend on corporate profits. Most of them don't have high investments, but they do participate. And when socialists like to grouse about 'obscene' corporate profits, they're really grousing about all the little guys around the Country getting their small portions. Hillary's power grab attempt includes the almost complete confiscation of corporate profits to fund her programs, thus hurting the little guy again and stifling the economy in a big way. This goes to prove that all socialist policies are going to hurt the little guy, no matter how they're clothed.

left angle:

Previous post of "4:25 PM" should read "1:25 PM"

Cal: a response
I am a left of center democrat/liberal in the classic sense on social issues.. actually more to the right on fiscal matters. I am a free-market capitalist.

Liberals and Socialism
I am going to make this really easy. Today's modern liberals are socialists here is why. Their freedom from traditions and dogma means that they have no moral absolutes and are as I said anti-religious and they do not like traidional ideas of patriotism. They are internationalists.

The progressive reforms include our modern massive welfare state. This is the redistribution of income via taxes. Another idea of progress is government regulation and control of businesses, all profit, private proerpty, and cultural social norms. This all leads to control and planning of the economy, a collective control of property, and loss of individual rights because the state must ensure everyone's so called equality.

That said it is pretty clear that American liberals are socialists of various degrees, and I do know Senator Sanders, he most offen votes with Democrats.

By the way I don't like liberals are open minded and tolerant. Not when conservatives or moderates are around.

Well lefty,
It is not the conservatives/republicans who have butchered the definition of liberalism or socialism.

For starters, there is really nothing "liberal" about today's democrat party/liberal philosophy.

"Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; "

This is a hoot, today's liberals are tied to the same failed ideas of minority set asides, welfare, nanny state ideas.

They refuse to talk abaout school vouchers, even though they are better for children and families.

"free from bigotry."

This is nothing but a laugh. Today's liberals are bigotted against the judeo-christian culture that formed this country. The ACLU is bigotted against any traditional conservative values



""Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.""

Another hoot. The liberals have not had an origial idea since 1960.

Today's democrat party has absolutely nothing in common with the dictionary definition of liberals.

There is nothing progressive about them either

Today's so called liberals are actually the antithesis of true liberalism as espoused by such thinkers as our founding fathers.

Today's liberals have in fact become the epitome of closed minded bigots.

Long jump, short pier
Wow, guess I got told!

Re: My previous post...QED.

tommccoy: oh yeah he cut me to pieces
with idiotic statements like this:

"Those who favor socialism because they seek the power that having full control over the lives of others gives. This category includes every single elected Democrat"

dude please...

I Give Up
You can't have a debate with someone who had been so throughly brainwahsed with left-wing propaganda.

tommcoy: he cut me to pieces alright..

some of beowolfs "facts"or (what I call flat out lies,idiotic/stupid opinions and distortions.)

"Those who favor socialism because they seek the power that having full control over the lives of others gives. This category includes every single elected Democrat."


"The Congressional Progressive Caucus is an all-congressman branch of the Democratic Socialists of America."

"Of course the wacko socialists at the top are filthy rich. That's how they can "afford" to be socialists"

"So while the Pelosis and Kennedys and Reids of the world can all be screaming for ever higher taxes to pay for their ever expanding series of "free stuff", you can stand there and yell "they're not socialists!!!!!!!!"

"So tell me how you can resolve your kooky notion that she isn't a socialist when she, herself, openly admits she is a socialist by belonging to a socialist organization?"

"I pointed out the FACT that they (all dems) are socialist."

"hillary Clinton got rich through insider trading of cattle futures and ripping off poor people in a massive real estate/loan scandal.

John Edwards got rich by chasing ambulances and suing doctors who have done nothing wrong based upon long-debunked junk science.
Nancy Pelosi married her money.

Harry Reid got rich dealing with mobsters and real estate scams."


oh yea tom mccoy..i am royally humbled by this
a** whuppin...lmao




Hil's socialism should unite the wings
Since the Purists in the GOP are hell-bent on allowing the Dems to win in '08, Cal's great exposure, Rush, Sean, and others have done it too, even the dreaded Rudy, what will it matter? The GOP is so fractured by its purists and RINO inanities and Bush weariness, that the Dems should waltz to victory in '08. So what is one more scandal or accusation against Hil? The Purists in the GOP will stay at home, smoke cigars, do something else on Election Day because Rudy, Fred, Mitt are not just their boys. They would rather go down on their vaunted principles and allow Hil and the Dems to corner all 3 branches of Govt., and keep power for a generation than allow Mitt, Rudy or Fred a chance to unite the fractured Party, forget the W disappointments, and try to understand that no conservative idea will ever see the light of day under Hil and BO, the ticket dujour. That the USA would lose to the Islamofascists, really lose the SCOTUS battle, lose on all those issues that the Purists wail about with socialist pacifist leaders like Hil doesn't faze them. No,they say, I held my nose for Bush, no more. Now I will allow the nation to really collapse and go home with my values and ideals in tact behind my walled off home. So illegal immigration gets worse under Hil, so what, it was W's, RINO fault and the future doesn't really matter as long as we get revenge! And that is what it would be. REVENGE. Taking their ball home while Hillary turns this nation even more Left and 'nurtures' the cradle to the grave mentality that according to Gallup, nearly 45% of Americans now crave. Yeah go home and allow Hil to win since that will punish the GOP. Yeah that will work for our national security, border protection, free enterprise system, and for our kids and grandkids.

Not Over Yet
Don't worry friends, its not over yet. Hillary the Horrible is not electible and I don't can what anyone says. Its is very early so lets wait and see what happens.

Left Angle
I wonder how the masses will take it once I request a copy of Hitlery's Master's Thesis, now OUT from under lock and key, and I post her praising scribblings about Saul Aulinsky, noted radical commie puke?

It'll cost me a few bucks to get it copied but well-worth it.

Technical Jobs
I am not exactly sure what is meant by "technical" jobs these days, but at one time these included jobs like plumbing, carpentry, electrical work, etc.

Funny, I do not look down on those jobs as Chairman Hillary suggests others do (and some of her friends probably do). One of the things that people miss is that such fields are in desperate need. Also, it is really hard to "outsource" a plumbing job. So these jobs are perhaps the safest in the American economy.


Hitlery's quotes
What do these quotes have in common?

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all." [Nikita Khrushchev , February 25, 1956 20th Congress of the Communist Party]


"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all." [Vladimir Lenin, as quoted in Not by Politics Alone]


"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993]


"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." [President Bill Clinton, 'USA Today' March 11, 1993: Page 2A]

Seems like Bubba and Hitlery got a real good brainwashing when they visited Russia in 1970.

Left Angle
"sjt: The Iraq War...
and the way the bush administration reacts to its critics, the way he governs as a dictator rather than president."

The way he reacts to his critics? When exactly was it that he shut down the press because of their overwhelming negative reporting of him? We can certainly see the results as his approval rating hovers around 30%. He reacts badly to his critics for a fairly good reason... he doesn't believe the press has given him a fair shake... and he's absolutely right. The Iraq war has been reported on negatively from the very start. Virtually no good news or progress at any point made it through the editing room. His "critics" as in Dems were given a microphone and camera every time they had a new "Bush lied, people died" chant to take up.

He's had a bunker mentality for a very good reason... he's been the object of non-stop artillery barrages.

He isn't governing as a dictator by any stretch. The president is the constitutional officer empowered to conduct foreign policy and act as commander in chief. Dems have attempted to subvert that role a la the Pelosi trip to Syria.

Further, even the controversial wiretaps received congressional and judicial approval. You may not like the call but the process was followed.

If you have an example, please post it. I'm interested.

The war funding btw was a classic case of our system at work. He acted on his prerogative to not pass legislation that tied his and the military commanders' hands in Iraq. He could not have been more right and the Dems couldn't have been more wrong.

International problems

The next president has a number of serious issues to deal with:

1) What will the outcome of the ME situation bring? Will our country be directly struck with terrorism as threatened by the Islamofacists?

2) How will the next president handle the military build-up in China? They now have a significant number of "silent" nuclear armed submarines currently roaming the Pacific Ocean, one which recently caught the Kitty Hawk completely off-guard.

China also has a lasar capable of disarming the entire U.S. defense system depends upon by knocking out our satalites out of the skies.

3) Mexico is running out of oil from which U.S. gets about 15% of its oil. When they start laying off those workers - which is their #1 industry - they and their families will no doubt be heading North.

4) The current economic situation in the U.S. is precarious. The current world-wide derivitives amount to around 2 quadrillion dollars. Anyone who doesn't think this is serious just doesn't understand the implications of what a downturn in the real estate and mortgage markets will bring.

5) Inflation is skyrocketing. Gold has risen considerably and is projected to rise even more in the future.

6) How can Putin be contained? He is preventing the U.S. from putting up a missile shield for the protection of Europe. He is in bed with Iran and is a willing supplier of munitions and arms to them. Meantime at home, he is oppressing his people more and more.

The Democrats who are talking about universal health care will be placing an additional burden on the tax-payers that they will be unable to pay because their earnings will not support it. Oil is currently 65 dollars a barrel and some experts believe - because of "Peak Oil" - it could go to $150.00 a barrel.

The Democrats are talking about cutting back the Bush tax cuts which are the very thing which has enabled the economy to be where it is today.

How much of an influence will George Soros be if a Democrat is elected? He is already funding activists who are making themselves heard in the Democrat party.

How close to a Castro-type government will the far-left push a Democrat president? Too many far left supporters have praised what Castro is doing. For Michael Moore to come out with a film - Sicko - praising the Castor health system is ludicrous.

There haven't been any candidates in either party who are willing to discuss the issues I think are critical to the survival of this country. Too much pontificating and not enough substance for me.

Who am I going to vote for? At the moment, I couldn't tell you. But as far as Hillary goes, you have in her the comsumate light-weight. Absolutely no executive experience and has not been tested under fire. I don't want her finger on the nuclear device. She hasn't shown that she has the temperment for the job. Obama, same thing. Two years in the Senate isn't going to cut it when push comes to shove for a presidential candidate. Edwards? A one-term Senator with no significant legislation to his credit. Has the show, has the dough, but he should stick to lawyering.

Well, we can hope the "right" man will step up and maintain the values which got America to where it is, not take it some place thought to be a "Utopia".

Sonny
You forgot the major deed that needs doing. Re arming the military after Bush's disarming of the Army. Marines and reserve forces. Is it possible?

not limited to or by established.....
read: "never picked up a friggin history book, ever".

You all shouldn't panic too much
over Hilary Clinton. When Republicans controlled all three branches, I fully expected social security, medicare and medicaid to be abolished or at least left to the states to fund; no federal funding for public schools and abolishment of Dept of HEW, FDA. Instead they seemed intent on bankrupting the country. I guess that would shrink the federal government considerably.

Drew: Sorry for the delay in answering
Spending some quality time with my daughter.

Well, the thing I'll say is that we obviously don't see eye to eye on it, and that's okay. It's why we ultimately have real elections.

I'm not really much of one to call people names or anything just because we disagree. Not to imply that you did; you didn't. Great convo.

But once I'm King of the World, and the only Qualified Voter in national elections, I promise you things will be different!





Cal: Re NRA, sorry
Giuliani can't just "make a deal" with the NRA. There's no Monty Hall at the NRA. They rate and endorse candidates based on their record, not promises. Giuliani's record SUCKS.

The NRA will never endorse him. He's dead in the water.



NRA on RINO Rudy. Some links

mgrgreen
You are close with your definitions.

Communism is a theoretical collectivist society, classless and stateless, which was to have evolved from the interim socialist state. A Communist state has never actually existed.

Socialism, in many forms, has and still does exist in many countries. China (PRC) subscribes to market socialism. Cuba and North Korea use a more totalitarian form of socialism. Vietnam uses a variant of market-socialism (after starving for a couple of decades).

The main advocates of American socialism, Clinton, Pelosi and Kerry, advocate market-socialism, strictly regulated by a powerful federal government.

Many ignorant Americans see socialism as the panacea for all their troubles: free health care, guarenteed income, redistribution of wealth (from the evil rich to themselves), guarenteed housing, cradle-to-grave nanny-state, etc. The price for this isn't very much. All they have to do is give up personal property, freedom and responsibility.

So true
"Communism is a theoretical collectivist society, classless and stateless, which was to have evolved from the interim socialist state. A Communist state has never actually existed."

So called Communist states have never been able to progress from the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Funny that ... I suppose the party representatives don't want to relinquish power.

The Communist state would abide by Marx's doctrine of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." as quoted in the article.

What I have never been able to understand is what the Communist economic model would be.

Once the dictatorship had been disbanded, you would not have a state to collectively own property. However, neither would you have private property.

Suppose that your anarcho-syndicalist collective had a bad harvest and had no "each" to share out, regardless of anyone's ability.

Would it be acceptable to specialise in making lots of baskets and then trading these with other anarcho-syndicalist collectives?

Acting on behalf of the collective of course, since the baskets wouldn't actually belong to any one individual.

Erm ... isn't that the dawn of trade? Wouldn't that mean that achieving your communist dream had been a collosal waste of time?


Hal Donahue

Obviously, the rearming of the military is a presidential decision.

Going back to the Clinton years and with Rumsfeld attempting to invade Iraq "on the cheap", I can only assume lack of prepardness in the 1990's meant inadequate forces in the 2000's.

I think the question you are asking should be asked of the candidates.

The point of my post at 6:04 PM was that we wouldn't be asking as many questions as we are if the TV commentators wouldn't be wasting time in forums with questions like, "How many of you believe in creation?"

Our political dialogue seems to be more concerned with the "micro" instead of the "macro". It is almost as though there were no problems outside our shores when it seems to some of us that we are like the guys at the Alamo or with General Custer. We are surrounded by enemies and there is no calvary coming to rescue us. And we spend time and energy on Rosie???

Sonny, a quibble
Rearming of the military is not solely a Presidential decision. That takes bucks, and the House guards the purse strings.

Sonny BINGO!!
You hit it exactly. Obvilously military readuiness was pretty damn good as we defeated both Afghanistan and Iraq in record time.

We are not surrounded at all this administration is trying to teach us fear. We can and HAVE kicked their butt. You want guarantees sorry no can do

BrainR
No worries, I don't even think Rudy will be an issue. Plus I have not decided to support him yet, just looking at some options if Thompson does not run. However, with him quiting law and order today I think he will and in my mind, he is the right man for the job.

Oh and in case anyone was interested I saw a poll today (not that I put too much stock in them mind you) that Thompson is leading 30 points in Tennessee. Go Fred!

Drew: Right on!
Betrayed my Vietnam era roots.

Fred's the mensch.

He is the "almost" perfect candidate, the right man for the time and issues, a Reaganesque figure.

The only reason I wrote "almost" is that I feel my own candidacy would be "truly" perfect, and of course I have no intention of running. Further, I think my own candidacy is the "perfect" one for every era!

Further... (please, stop the applause)... I have no intention of accepting the nomination if drafted. If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve.

Wait! Someone already used that line!

Ha Ha
That made me laugh BrainR. I must say Fred does have a Reagan like quality to him. When Reagan ran in 1980 the nation suffered from teh terrible leadership of Jimmy Crack Corn Carter. Inflation was bad, Iran was a mess, there was an energy crisis, you know the rest. Reagan brought us back with the principles of federalism.

I see Thompson in the same light. We have in 2008 Iran still a mess, another impending energy crisis, immigration woes, threats to our economy from tax hikers, terrorism abroad, and of course Hillary. In comes Fred with conservative, federalist principles and well the rest we'll just have to wait and see.

By the way if you do run, I have never minded the VP spot, you know, no real responsibilies and a nice title, lol.

Communism/Socialism
I don't care what dictionary definition you use Communism and to a lesser extent socialism is nothing more then self induced slavery on a national leval.

Drew
Yep!

You nailed it!

Cheer Up Everybody!!
It won't be so bad if Hillbillary gets elected and we become a socialist society...

First thing I'll do is quit working, and why not? I will be living just fine off of other people's burdens and responsibilities! Since we have to redistribute the wealth all around and level the playing field...well...I'll just be a bench warmer!

In fact, we all can be living off of the work and sweat from our 12 million illegal aliens because they're going to do the jobs I guess we don't really want to do. They won't be paying taxes, but hey, we're all equal and someone is going to have to take care of ME because it's the government's job to do so!

As far as housing goes...well, I hope John Edwards doesn't mind roomates! He shouldn't have more than me or you, and since we level the playing field and will become how communist Russia was, we can fit dozens and dozens of families into his house! I hear he's got a nice pool, so I'm totally there!

Ok, enough sarcasm, I will literally puke and sock my money in my mattress and buy a gun if Hillary gets elected. If you're not scared about this, buy Atlas Shrugged and read it before this happens.

Chilling!
In Hillary's world, everyone will be equal, although of course some will be more equal than others.

Hilliary
Is not one tenth as scarey as the knowledge she is being shoved forward by some very rich and powerful people here and abroad.

And here folks thought communism was dead.

The new communists using the stage name democrat, or better yet, Social Democrats are having a communist resurrection.

She is as red as Lenin himself

LA
"Liberal:

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry."

That is a "classic" definition on the political spectrum that has nothing to do with modern American liberalism. Conservatives are more liberal by this definition than leftists.

For instance, liberals are very much authoritarians in our nation. Their views are traditional and orthodox in the sense that they believe that rights belong to the gov't and the people are subject to the ruling elites. Leftists in America are hardly free of bigotry. The most comparable attitude of bigotry among non-leftists compared to the left's hatred for conservative Christians is the white supremicists views of blacks.

"Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism."

We favor the reforms advocated by the founders... a novel idea in the historical perspective that individuals, not gov'ts, are sovereign and own God given Rights.

Liberal ideas for progress are for progressive enslavement of the masses through dependency. Leftists are not tolerant of ideas and behaviors... they try to impose their views through gov't action.