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Tuesday, May 22, 2007
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
Amnesty by another name
by Cal Thomas
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I wish I could believe the president and those senators who claim their agreement on immigration legislation will "fix" the problems of open borders and illegal aliens. I can't, because the public has had no input into the measure; the last time Congress "fixed" the problem, it got worse; and it appears Democrats and Republicans care more about harvesting votes for their respective parties than doing what's best for their fellow citizens.

The bill would allow for the hiring of 18,000 additional border patrol agents, construction of 370 miles of fence and 200 miles of vehicle barriers, ground-based radar, camera towers and aerial vehicles. Employers would have to electronically verify new hires within 18 months and all existing employees within three years. The priority of border security first, legalization second sounds good.

Only after the border is secured, say the senators and White House, will the guest-worker program kick in. Again, I wish I could believe this, but when it comes to immigration, I don't trust either party. It's a safe bet that once the U.S. government legalizes the illegals, many will not abide by the conditions. What then?

The president can say the Senate measure isn't amnesty, but that doesn't make it something else. The fact is that many of those who broke our laws to get here will be allowed to stay.

A new immigrant category called the "Z Visa" will be introduced. Z-1 covers illegal aliens who got here and started work before Jan. 1, 2007. Z-2 is for parents and spouses of illegals who qualify under the Z-1 category. Z-3 is for the children of illegal aliens qualifying under the Z-1 category.

As the Heritage Foundation's Brian Darling has written, "Z Visa" holders can remain in their "Z" status indefinitely, meaning they never have to pursue a "pathway to citizenship." They'd also be allowed to get Social Security numbers and benefits from some welfare programs. And, writes Darling, "there is no cap on the number of amnesty recipients in the draft language." Z Visa holders can't vote, but who doubts that a liberal judge will rule such a ban unconstitutional? Only in America can one violate the law and then appeal to the law and the Constitution for undeserved rights.

The draft language requires illegals to return "home" for a year or two before applying for citizenship, but who will enforce that provision? No president is going to suffer the political fallout from a mass deportation of lawbreakers, especially after they've been on Oprah with their babies, crying their eyes out. Neither am I betting that imposed fines will be paid.

That this bill is hundreds of pages long and was mostly crafted in secret without hearings and without input from the public should also make us wary. So should Sen. Edward Kennedy's enthusiasm for it. Each time Kennedy embraces a Republican, the Republican usually gets his pocket picked. Worse, Republicans don't seem to mind.

Radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh predicted last week that if the Senate draft legislation becomes law "there is an 80 percent chance that Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the United States Š we are doomed in '08." He predicted this would be "the last straw as far as the Republican base is concerned in being able to trust Republicans that it elects to represent them."

Why do our elected leaders care more for noncitizens than they do citizens? There is no constitutional right to come to America; neither is there a right to become a U.S. citizen. Do we let robbers keep the money if they successfully break into a bank? Isn't this the message we have been sending to illegals: if you can get here, you can have all sorts of goodies previously reserved for people who abide by the law?

Former Attorney General Edwin Meese thinks the only way to solve the illegal immigration problem is for lawmakers to "uphold the principle that the rule of law requires the fair, firm and equitable enforcement of the law." He would avoid granting amnesty to those who've lived and worked in the United States illegally and ensure that any temporary-worker program is short term.

Meese knows something about the subject. He admits 1986 legislation that attempted to stem the tide of illegal immigration by combining amnesty with increased workplace enforcement of immigration law failed.

The stakes are enormous, for the country and for the future of the Republican Party. It's not worth passing this measure just so both sides can claim "victory," if the victory is a Pyrrhic one.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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Amnesty Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles,
Amnesty Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles, and Power Brokers Tap-Dance

Much to the chagrin of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, (D) NV, the Senate Power Brokers, and the White House, the push for Cloture by tonight and compromise by Friday is now no closer than June, if at all.

Carefully finding his words and trying not to show defeat of the arrogant power play; "It would be to the best interests of the Senate ... that we not try to finish this bill this week," said Reid, (D) NV, as the chamber began debate on the volatile issue. "I think we could, but I'm afraid the conclusion wouldn't be anything that anyone wanted."

The offices of US Senators including Sen. Reid’s offices were clogged with phone calls, faxes, emails in a groundswell of opposition to this most recent attempt to hoodwink the US public with a fast push and shuffle of the so-called Immigration Reform program. The Senate deal crafted by Liberal Senator Kennedy (D) MA and the once embraced as a Conservative Senator Jon Kyl, (R) AZ; now said by vast portions of the US public as easily seen through as an Amnesty program, custom made for illegal aliens being allowed to stay in the US or return to the US to work cheaply on a Z Visa.

Though there appears many different reasons by Republican and Democrats, Conservative and Liberals alike to not want this latest boondoggle, it is obvious that the absence of real cost projections on this legislative effort that could easily top the cost of the Great Society programs of President Lyndon B. Johnson (D) TX that swelled the public welfare roles to millions and expenses to taxpayers in the Billions of Dollars.

There is growing evidence of organized labor siding with taxpayers on this effort to block unwanted entry of illegal aliens coming by the millions to take the jobs of America’s workforce. Although with unions at a historical low-point in membership, the very thought of swelling membership with newly arriving unskilled laborers by forsaking multi-generation union worker families is not as attractive as once thought by the liberal DEM & GOP politicians who are pushing the Amnesty deal.

The basic principles of enforcing US laws to prevent unwanted illegal aliens, protecting lawful citizens, securing borders and preserving language and culture are among the topics of frustration and anger by millions of Americans who have earned their place in America’s structure, history and future. Even first generation immigrants are speaking of the unfairness of all these lawbreakers coming in and now instead of deportation are facing full pardons and jobs and welfare and the promises of citizenship, never having earned it lawfully like the immigrants before them.

With the Amnesty Cloture Choked and Debate Dangling for a time in June, watch and listen over the next few weeks as the old song and dance routine takes place.

Richard G. Shuster (from Rick’s Random Ramblings, Amnesty Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles, and Power Brokers Tap-Dance)


Great column, Cal.
If congress spent as much time, money, and effort securing our borders...

For those interested in the topic of illegal immigration, I've got a couple of links to Mark Steyn columns on the topic posted on my blog (just click on my name).

Amnesty, again
The S.1348 bill (Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007) probably won't pass, IMHO.

Too many people have PC's these days and 24-hour news channels are ever-vigilant for "breaking news".

The Congress got away with it 20 years ago; history won't repeat. I hope.

The idea, however, is to simply make all the illegals legal by giving them "Z" visas. That's like painting over the rust on a used car. After a while, another bill will be introduced to grant full amnesty to all the "Z" visa holders because, after all, they are here "legally".

I agree that enforcement of the "new" law won't happen any more than it did under the old law.

Sad day for America if this bill gets through to the president's desk.

How Do We Get Heard?
Cal's comment, "Why do our elected leaders care more for noncitizens than they do citizens?" really struck home. I write my representatives, I vote, and I keep up on politics and the news so I can be informed, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. My feeling is that the only thing that could possibly stop this runaway train is term limits. If the entrenched politicians were uprooted without lifelong jobs and huge retirement pensions do you think it would make a difference? Our system is flawed because those representing us no longer do and they care more for their own position and power than this great nation they supposedly serve.

I'm disgusted and alarmed.
This latest Amnesty is an abomination. The third in my lifetime and each one comes with promises that it will be the LAST one, but they never solve the problem. They make the problem WORSE. But I guess our Congress isn't very imaginative or resourceful, because here we go again! The definition of insanity is when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

First of all....who do these pompous Congressmen think they are? They are not kings, they are slobs we elected to represent Americans, not to represent illegal foreigners! But they come out like kings making their pronouncement (without the permission of the people and with no debate), that they are going to DESTROY 250 YEARS OF AMERICAN HISTORY by turning our country into the United Socialst Republic of North Ameximerica!

Secondly, why would any Republican go along with a plan that will ultimately reduce their party to irrelevance? I smell something VERY FISHY. Follow the money.

This plan is dangerous to national security, will be unbelievably expensive (illegal immigration is already killing our resources and they want to triple it??), will hurt cities already overwhelmed by this cancer, will increase crime in our cities (we can't deport gang members? I'd like to know the rationale behind that genius decision) and most of all...the plan is UNENFORCEABLE!

Who is going to enforce the NEW rules? The same people who couldn't enforce the old ones?

This Amnesty is a joke but Americans are not laughing. I have never seen such unbridled anger as I have been seeing from my fellow Americans since these Congressional kings announced their malignant vision for America's future. Many of us are changing our party affiliation over this abortion of sanity.

If these genii in Congress had any real idea (or care) about what people are saying, they would hire some illegals to build them a deep bunker because people want to tar & feather them. Starting with John McCain. He's about as Conservative as Elvis' Vegas costumes.

We need wisdom and common sense in government, but God knows there is none to be found on the hill today.

Disgusted.

Alienate the Aliens...
NOT the American citizens! The greedy employers say the workforce will disappear if our government does not give the Aliens Amnesty. BS If the government STOPPED ALL entitlements to the laggards in this country a workforce would appear overnight.

When you need food, clothing and shelter for yourself and/or your family you will take the jobs the illegal aliens are now taking.

If the government enforced the immigrations laws already on the books and SCRAPPED the piece of garbage crap up for a vote before it is even finished WE THE PEOPLE could deport every alien (loyal to another country) who is here illegally before any of the so called triggers are met!

ALL

Alienate the Aliens...
con't the stuff promised sounds great except there is NO FUNDING allocated for the stuff. How did McCain ever become a Republican? He asks, how does fining an illegal alien $5,000 and giving them a bunch of years to become a citizen or get a green card AMNESTY?

They do not give a rats@$$ about becoming an American citizen. They paid more than $5,000 to get here illegally. WHY do the ignorant politicians continue to think we're as stupid as they are? They are here ILLEGALLY. That's why it's amnesty, Senator McCain. DEPORT THEM! AND THINK ABOUT OUR COUNTRY LIKE YOU DID AS A POW...NOT YOUR EGO! I believe when you have shot yourself in both feet it's kinda difficult to run now.

How simple does it need to be for politicians to get it? IF THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE THERE IS NO REASON FOR THEM TO BE HERE. Got it?

THIS IS GOING TO BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR AND INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE!!!


Fix?
Cal, You're right....this is BS Grandmaster Ro

One Bill
All we need is ONE bill. That bill authorizes and funds a secured border (North and South). Stop the employers from hiring illegals. Nothing more and nothing less. Get this done NOW, then we talk about 12M who broke our laws. I would be for a migrant temp worker program but your not going to get the benefits of this country when you break the law.

WE ARE A COUNTRY OF LAWS. LAWS THAT ARE ON THE BOOKS SHOULD BE ENFORCED. IF THEY ARE NOT THEN "NO" LAW IS WORK THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON.

just waiting
on the sidelines for the rest of you to get as pissed off as I am.....

Here's the truth.
The truth is that the people claiming to represent its constituentcy is selling America down the immigrant hole. Why? The travesty is that their parents fought in World Wars to give them and us the way of life which we currently live...and now, these selfish basturds are approaching this issue with an attitiude I will not tolerate.
What attitude? Oh, the one that says I've busted my asss long enough, I won't be around for the true impact of letting these people into this Country.
Fukk my kids and my grandkids,and the sacrifices of my parents generation. I don't care,cause I won't be around.
Is it making you sick? It makes me sick every single time I hear the word amnesty and see the absolute disregard for the RULE OF LAW. These poeple need to GTFO. They care nothing for supporting and defending this Country,NOTHING. They care nothing for the legacy to be left behind, nothing. Why do ou think they deny terror exists? They don't give a shittt about anyone but themselves.
When will people really wake up? When will they realize? When it's to dammm late, that's when.

Not as long as Bush is President
We should not undertake any immigration reform until after another Presidential election. This President has shown his loyalties are not to American citizens on this issue. Personally, I believe we need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We have the laws, what we don't have is any enforcement. Without enforcement, laws are meaningless.

This new package will be no different than 1986. The borders could have and should have been secured September 12, 2001. But that would have disrupted the cheap labor express and the RNC could not disappoint its contributors. So the problem has doubled as enforcement went from inadequate under Clinton to nonexistent under Bush. Now they will try to jam another amnesty down our throats. The question remains, will we let them?


Who actually believes the President has any intention of building a fence? How will we enforce new laws when we won't enforce current laws? Will the people breaking current law comply with any new law? What will we do if they don't?
Who actually believes, that when George W. Bush delivers on his promises to citizens of other countries illegally in our country, that they will vote Republican? Another amnesty will result in Democrat majorities for decades. How stupid do you have to be to import voters for the opposition at the same time you alienate your own voters? If the GOP surrenders our sovereignty and abandons the rule of law, they may find in November 2008, that they still have their big money/cheap labor donors, but they do not have voters. GOP-RIP

Dear Mr. Thomas
I know this guy…….


who came to this country with his parents at age eleven. He remembers going with his parents to get their Visa’s after waiting a long time for it, because that was required in order to immigrate.

His father also had to have a job already lined up in the USA and a sponsor who was a US citizen prior to obtaining the Visa.

The voyage on the SS Italia was a lot of fun for an eleven year old boy and the eight days to cross the Atlantic Ocean was a great adventure. The excitement of going to this country was unimaginable and full of anticipation.

He’ll never forget the sight of the Statue of Liberty standing so proudly in New York Harbor and the majestic skyline on the horizon. It was a promise fulfilled as that of the land of honey.

It wasn’t long that he went to school and in six months had become fluent in the language of his new country. He absorbed everything around him and slowly transformed from a foreigner to an American.

At seventeen he volunteered for military service and spent the next three years (32 months were spent overseas) paying the dues he felt obligated to recompense for the privilege of living in a country where opportunities are abound if you are willing to work for them.

After returning, he found many things had changed. Three years is a long time when removed from such a dynamic country, and sadly some of his friends had died in the jungles of Vietnam, others had returned with serious issues, drugs or mental. He got a job, bought a new car, met his soulmate, got a second job, she got a job, bought a house and began living their American Dream.


All the while Politicians had betrayed them by not supporting them to win the battle/war. The people were treating them like crap, labeling them baby killers and throwing trash at their uniforms. Burning the very flag which symbolizes by its very colors what has made this country great and the history attached to it. It was the beginning of the downward slide that brings us to today.


The guy I know happens to be me…..and I felt compelled to share this.

It hasn’t taken long for history to repeat itself. The same political situation is now evident in Washington DC, the very people who supported the war in Iraq are now saying they were wrong to do so, and want to leave another unfinished job behind. For them to reverse the vote they extended initially is one thing, but to hold up funding to support our troops is unforgivable. When will we learn that politicians are just tokens of what once were great statesmen and who no longer have the desire to continue what our forefathers have started and what had been accomplished by that greatness by people full of character.


I say this now, and I mean it with all my heart.


One does not have to like one’s government to love one’s country.


I for one have Zero Faith in the elected officials of today; I can no longer stand by and approve of what they do. They are failures in what they have been elected to do and have mismanaged our funds to the point of no return. They are a force gone wild and no longer respect offices they hold. They are traitors of the worst kind in that they have the power by default to initiate and continue their treason.


They are allowing this country to be ravaged by people who do not deserve to be here. People who will never assimilate (they talk about “La Rassa”) and never become part of what has made this country what it is today. People who bring crime and illnesses, some we haven’t heard of in many years like polio, which still thrives in third world countries. They are like bloodsuckers and are bringing a pestilence instead of contributions that are worthy of living here in return. They fly their national flag in full view of us to mock us.


Yet these very same politicians have no qualms about sacrificing the best of the best because of their own political greed, and then denying them funding to continue a cause which if left unfinished will haunt us forever. They have turned our once great nation into a snake which is swallowing its own tail. They have developed and voted in laws which are destroying the very foundation of this great Republic, and they do it with lies, one after the other.


They need to be held accountable. NOW!

Congress not listening to us
It seems like right now all they're paying attention to are special interest lobbies.

toro
I know you as well. Thank you for serving our great nation as a warrior in Vietnam. B1/9, F2/9 and HQ/26th Marines. 1965-1968

Semper Fi,
Levi

What border security??
So they say they will fund more border gaurds??? Where do they think they will get them from? They keep putting all the current ones in jail for trying to do their jobs. Oh yea that's another thing the "new" citizens will be able to do...then they can let their buddies come on across the border!!! This is soooo "twilight zone"

The Legacy of George W. Bush

If he gets his amnesty, he will be remembered as the last Republican President. The GOP will go the way of the Whigs and whatever party arises to replace it will never dislodge the Democrat majority, thanks to his stupidity of importing voters for the Democrats. He may go down in history as the man who simultaneously destroyed his party and his country. Of course that would be in the underground English language history books. The official Spanish language history books will laud him as the man who delivered El Norte to La Raza. (the Race in English)

To those against this immigration bill
would you please give us your suggestions as to how to deal with this problem?

One question in particular comes to mind.

Exactly how does the u.s. govt go about rounding up 12 million illegal immigrants and deporting them?

Please explain.

Speed Up Citizenship
I have suggested to Senator Chambliss that the bill be amended to speed up the citizenship process. These new citizens should be able to vote in the 2008 elections. After all, if they can't vote for Chambliss and co, who will?


La Raza
Glad someone mentioned "The Race." If you can't see that we're in "Bizzaro World" right now, read this!

"Funding racist schools: Your tax dollars at work"
Posted: July 12, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Michelle malkin
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51019

Or this:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=153
some excerpts:

Founded in 1968 as the Southwest Council of La Raza, the National Council of La Raza (NCLR)...

NCLR’s major policy positions also include the following:

It supports access to driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants.
It opposes the REAL ID Act, which requires that all driver’s license and photo ID applicants be able to verify they are legal residents of the United States, and that the documents they present to prove their identity are genuine. According to La Raza, this law “opens the door to widespread discrimination and civil rights violations.”
It opposes the Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal Act (CLEAR), which would empower state and local law-enforcement authorities to enforce federal immigration laws. La Raza argues this would “result in higher levels of racial profiling, police misconduct, and other civil rights violations.”
It lobbies for racial and ethnic preferences (affirmative action) and set-asides in hiring, promotions, and college admissions.
It supports bilingual education and bilingual ballots.
It supports voting rights for illegal aliens.
It supports stricter hate-crime laws.
It opposes the Aviation Transportation and Security Act requiring that all airport baggage screeners be U.S. citizens.
It opposed President Bush’s signing of the "Secure Fence Act of 2006” which authorized 700 miles of new border fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border.
As columnist Michelle Malkin reports, La Raza seeks to inculcate young people with its worldview by funding a number of charter schools that advocate ethnic separatism and anti-American, anti-white attitudes.

In 2005 NCLR received some $15.2 million in federal grants, of which $7.9 million was in U.S. Department of Education grants for Charter Schools; undisclosed amounts were earmarked for get-out-the-vote efforts supporting La Raza political positions.

NCLR also receives funding from the American Express Foundation; the Allstate Foundation; the AT&T Foundation; the Bank of America Foundation; the Carnegie Corporation of New York; the Annie E. Casey Foundation; the Fannie Mae Foundation; the Ford Foundation; the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation; the Joyce Foundation; the W. K. Kellogg Foundation; the John D. & Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation; the Open Society Institute; the David and Lucile Packard Foundation; the Rockefeller Foundation; and the Verizon Foundation.

NCLR’s total revenues in 2005 were $25.3 million. Its net assets that year were nearly $52.4 million.

Yep... La Raza is funded by Federal Tax dollars (yours and mine). Can anyone imagine funding the KKK with tax dollars?

Illegals
A national data base to call or computer check the social security number of a potential employee is needed to verify for employment. Employers who break the law, give mandatory one year in prison, no appeal. This would stop 99.9% of illegal immigration over night.

compelling images?

[e-mail to the major media]

To: Selected National Media

re: ILLEGAL "immigration"-- compelling images?

Larry King had a guest panel discussing ILLEGAL immigration tonight. At the end of the program, a latino offered a bowl of fruit allegedly picked by ILLEGAL aliens as an example of their contribution to America-- "doing those
jobs Americans won't do."

In closing, Larry King turned to Congressman Duncan Hunter and asked if he would like to comment on that image. Congressman Hunter said, "Yeah Larry-- we recently visited a Swift Meat plant where a raid had caught 800 ILLEGAL aliens-- Swift replaced them immediately with Americans who GOT THEIR JOBS BACK."

Analysis:
Among the myriad myths perpetrated by the self-aggrandizing apologists for ILLEGAL aliens, this myth of doing jobs otherwise undone is especially egregious and unctuous. Miscreant employers do milk the "cheaper" labor, BUT the EMPLOYERS pocket the savings-- the end product/service is very little cheaper in price, if any... then American TAXPAYERS and society bear the substantial concomitant costs pandemically associated with undereducated, indigent, ILLEGAL aliens-- e.g., crimes, drugs, gangs, dropouts, illegitimacies, decimated schools and enervated social service delivery systems, balkanization, and barrio blight.

Furthermore, ILLEGALS ARE displacing Americans in quite a lot of jobs as they and their miscreant employers break our laws, including dodging taxes. Some might call the burglar who breaks into a home an "uninvited guest," but putting lipstick on the pig does not lessen the crime. We would be FAR BETTER SERVED as a society and economy if employers hired LEGAL workers at fair wages.


College Professor
Business and Economics
Atlanta, Ga.

Kool-Aid Anyone?
Pardon me for thinking that Cal Thomas and certain others are huffing and puffing into a windstorm. Here's what I just posted on my own blog. If you disagree, fine, but please have an alternative (other than our emulating the followers of one Jim Jones):

Note: Tuesday, Jack Kelly (cited on Sunday as a supporter of the Immigration Reform Legislation) informed me today that he is no longer backing the measure as proposed. He said "the devil is in the details," and he thinks the details are not good. Here's how I responded to Jack, a wonderful conservative columnist who should be regularly on TH -- but isn't for some unknown reason:

Jack: I like the proposal better than you do. In that regard, I regularly cite Alexander the Great. "The weak (Republicans) give what they must. The strong (Democrats) take what they wish."

I think this is the best we can get, hopefully with some modifications on enforcement. The alternative is for Hillary and Nancy to write the next bill. In the meantime, we could limp along with the present "policy."

There are 40 million Hispanics (legally) in the U.S. now. If we lose that vote -- as we've lost the Blacks and the women professionals -- we are cooked, and our views on immigration will become even more irrelevant than they are now.

In 1960, Richard Nixon got 32% of the Black vote. If Republicans were still doing that, you and I could run for Pres. and V-P and win big. We're still doing pretty well with white males, but not so well with anyone else.

As I say, it's like being at a Single's Bar after midnight: Angelina Jolie, Jennifer Hewitt, and Kiran Chetry are no longer available, so you look for the next best option. (I haven't been to a Single's Bar since 1985, but I do remember them.) :-)


Priorities
I think we all need to take a step back and consider what the rush to push this bill through says about the priorities of Congress and the White House.

Rather than working to solve the financial problems in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, rather than working on honest tax reform, rather than working to fix the problems in our healthcare system that they all constantly scream about, rather than working to solve the problems in our education system that they all constantly cry about, they are working overtime to make all of these problems worse by introducing 12 million more people who will be looking to collect from them.

Ask yourself: When you voted last November, no matter who you voted for, did you do so in the hope that they would come in and push for allowing 12 million illegal immigrants a pass on being here against the law?

When was it that Congress decided that it represents people who aren't even citizens of this country over those who actually pay their salaries?

Man the phones to Washington!

If I had any doubt that it is just one big
cluster xxxx up there in Washington, they have removed all doubt! Funny thing, though-- this thing is SO EGREGIOUS that it might be just what it takes to get Middle America properly aroused to rattle their cages in Washington. Fred Thompson is already saying that we should build the damm wall before even considering a bill. Mitt has dubbed it scamnesty-- these are good signs!

For those who want to join the fight to save America, please see my transfer post just below with a link that will take you right to your Senators' and Congresspersons' official phone numbers, web sites, e-mail addresses, etc.
_________________________________________________

Scamnesty: The Ultimate Largesse

Be afraid-- be VERY AFRAID! Congress, pushed relentlessly by the Conpiracy Of Evil, is poised to create a path to Scamnesty for 12-20 million ILLEGAL aliens. With "chain migration," that will mean MANY MORE millions of indigent poor-- and the permanent morphing of America into an entitlement government welfare state. The public trough will become a voracious, inexorable black hole devouring all that has made America great.

If you listen to the pro-ILLEGAL alien arguments by members of the Conspiracy Of Evil, they are like low-hangin' fruit to refute:

1) Disingenuous premises:
The "undocumented workers" are generally hard working, good people who simply want to feed their families and do those jobs that Americans won't do that America must have done.

Reality Check:
ILLEGALS are too often both poor and undereducated-- a formula for DISASTER if they are allowed to naturalize. We are simply allowing corrupt Mexico to dump its welfare problems on America. ILLEGALS drive down wages, and they ARE taking good jobs-- America does not save at all! A relative few hoteliers, contractors, meat processors, and other law-breaking employers milk them for lesser wages, then the TAXPAYERS GET STUCK with the crimes, barrio blight, drugs, gangs, sullied schools, ethnocentricity, and welfare costs. Bilingual education is a scam and an abysmal failure. ILLEGALS are at least 3x as likely as legal residents to be incarcerated for serious crimes:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

2) We should respect their "rights" and put those who have a job on a path to citizenship and require the payment of back taxes, learning English, and paying a $2,000 fine.

Truth Check--
HOGWASH! We owe them NOTHING! NO THING! We need to require a tamper-proof I.D. card ASAP for ANY non-citizen to function here period-- to work, get a license, attend school, rent an apt., pass go, etc. They will not really build the wall or otherwise crack down on employers-- the card radiates the cancer at its starting point. Make ILLEGALS repatriate to apply for it, then vet them thoroughly to see who might come back on an INTERIM basis to work. There should be NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between having been here ILLEGALLY and later gaining citizenship. Token fines and back taxes are a farce! Some would charge them a $2,000 fee when their ANNUAL cost to taxpayers (per Heritage) will be $22k just in net govt. services used alone for a family headed by an uneducated, poor ILLEGAL?!?!

Why is this such a vexing problem? Because different powerful users with ulterior agendas salivate over ILLEGALS --> the PC "elite" left sees poor, malleable voters (40 acres and a mule redux) who will assure big entitlement government for the Big Brother elites to control; miscreant employers see cheap labor that the taxpayers are forced to subsidize; the scandal-plagued Catholic Church sees replacement contributors; self-serving national pols see hispanic votes in key states; the well-heeled like their cheap domestic help-- and THEIR children will not have their private schools ruined by them; finally the latino groups quite simply indubitably seek the Reconquista-- the morphing of America into Mexicomerica.

Middle America MUST unite and stop Scamnesty which is again pending in Congress. You can learn more and/or get involved to save America at the sites below. First, an easy way to reach the OFFICIAL contact info for your Senators and Representatives to oppose the pending Scamnesty Bills:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

BOOKMARK IT AND BARK AT THEM OFTEN! It IS EASY-- just a few clicks!!!

Some say that it does no good to contact Congress... don't believe it! Middle Americans like you derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in the House last year! Congressman Peter King said he had NEVER seen such a revolt in the heartland in his many years in congress. BUT the Conspiracy Of Evil is determined to cram ILLEGALS down America's throats, so we MUST BE RELENTLESS in expressing our righteous indignation to stop Scamnesty. We won the first battle, but we MUST NOT LOSE THE WAR! Congressional staffers track the feedback... I get letters and e-mails back from Congresspersons who do not even represent me addressing my specific concerns. YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Other good sites are below... the first one is GREAT -- a well-organized group trying to save America from myopia... it has prepared e-mails addressing proposed legislation you can customize and/or just send to your elected representatives!:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=opposeamnesty&s_src=K0613&s_subsrc=olk0604&printer_friendly=1
http://www.immigrationcontrol.com/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/middecade/
http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200701/NAT20070110a.html

FOLKS, THE VERY SURVIVAL OF THE AMERICAN HERITAGE, RULE OF LAW, CULTURE, COMMON LANGUAGE, SOCIO-ECONOMIC STABILITY-- INDEED THE AMERICAN WAY IF LIFE ITSELF-- ARE IN DIRE JEOPARDY!

That "cheap" labor is nothing of the sort! Per Heritage, EACH household headed by an undereducated, ILLEGAL alien will cost taxpayers $22k a year in deficit taxes versus services used alone! And that is just the tip of the iceberg of their total costs (crime control, enervated schools, balkanized barrios)! GET INVOLVED TO STOP THE INVASION NOW FOLKS-- BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE! AMERICA WOULD BE A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!
______________________________________________

other perspectives:
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://www.libertygunrights.com/NAUFactSheet.pdf
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/NAU/
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/amnesty/index.shtml
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/immigration/index.shtml

Anti-American traitors
Treason! The US Congress and the President are guilty of TREASON! They are destoying America, selling us to Mexico. They all ought to be caught and hanged for TREASON!

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Still no real criticism of Bush?
It seems Cal Thomas, like most evangelical Christians, just can't bring himself to openly refer to Geo. Bush as a first class disaster. This whole immigration mess could be stopped in 72 hours if the president of the United States sent some troops to our southern border and closed it tight. If he did that he would be an instat hero with millions of Americans.

But he won't do that because he is committed to a North American Union which calls for the merging of the USA with Mexico, and we can't have that merging without the populations of each country merged. Thus, we have on Bush's part--TREASON. But we won't wait for Cal and the other evangelicsls to understand this. Unfortunately, they just don't have that ability.

Love the one you're with
and enforce the laws we have. No more illusions, no new laws to not enforce any more than they enforce the old ones.
Left angle, above, asked just how we thought 12 million illegals would be rounded up and deported?
The same way you do anything else; one at a time, for as long as it takes.
Life is not a microwave.

ready for the revolution?

feedback sent to Congress

You can all reach your people in Congress right here at their official sites:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Heck, contact LOTS of them in Congress!
NOW is the time for all good Americans to speak out-- while there is still an America to save!
As information, here is my letter I have just sent...

[note: credit is owed to Congressman Ron Paul for the basis of the outline below.]
_____________________________________________

Dear Committee on the Judiciary:

We would like to share our letter to Senator McCain with the Judiciary Committee since the relevant issues are under your auspices. We believe that this is BY FAR the MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGE FACING AMERICA.

Thank you for considering our views. We hope that your Committee will put the best interests of America ahead of the self-aggrandizing desires of limited interest groups. We will be watching your decisions with GREAT interest.
_______________________________________________

Dear Senator McCain:

While we agree with you on some key subjects philosophically, there is one issue
where we DISAGREE PROFOUNDLY: your support of ILLEGAL aliens. If you are to have ANY HOPE of winning the Oval Office, you need to change course on this according to 68% of the voting public:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

As a border state senator, you must be acutely aware of the problems these lawbreaking interlopers cause-- see the recent referenda issues passed in Az. which antithetically oppose the concepts of Kennedy--McCain Amnesty.

We know that the Senate is poised to debate Immigration reform and would like to share our summary thoughts. We understand the pressures you face and hope that you will not again cave to the pressures of the special interests when the very
future of America is at stake. We agree with the following overview goals:

Border Security and Immigration Reform

We must secure our borders NOW. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. Potential terrorists can dance across our soft underbelly border
or overstay visas.

1. We should FIRST physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country BEFORE we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals... no more Simpson-Mazzoli Scamnesty shell game reforms. Only willful neglect by our government could have allowed this crisis to devolve.

2. Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays his/her visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired
visas. A tamper-proof I.D. may be necessary for all NON-citizens to function while VISITING America TEMPORARILY-- to work, get a license, rent an apartment, go to college, seek emergency assistance, pass go, etc.

3. NO AMNESTY-- PERIOD. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are already in our country ILLEGALLY. Border crashing is only the first of what become lives of serial lawbreaking. There should be NO PATH TO CITIZENSHIP for those who have been here ILLEGALLY. It is a farce to speak of paying a token fine and back taxes when each ILLEGAL alien household is costing taxpayers $22k annually in deficit taxes versus social services used alone (Heritage).

4. No welfare for ILLEGAL aliens. Americans have welcomed LEGAL immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. BUT taxpayers should not pay for ILLEGAL immigrants who decimate hospitals, enervate schools, roads, and social services, and permeate illegitimacy, crime, drugs, gangs, and ethnocentric barrio balkanization. Public financial assistance for higher education for non-citizens should be prohibited.

5. End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong. We need to reinterpret the 14th Amendment as it was intended.

6. Pass TRUE immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal
immigrants from all countries should face the SAME rules and waiting periods.

We should emphasize EDUCATED, SKILLED immigrants who can make positive contributions, NOT chain migration of those who become net users of government services-- like most ILLEGAL aliens. America cannot be the lifeboat to all of the world's less fortunate, lest the boat founder for all.

Thank you for considering our views, and thank you for your service to America.

Left angle
L.A., with his usual inanity, posted, "Exactly how does the u.s. govt go about rounding up 12 million illegal immigrants and deporting them?"


The US government doesn't have to do a "round-up" at all. Your question is simply stupid.

To get people who have entered this country illegally to leave, prosecute the employers and give the officers of the business a 7-figure fine and mandatory minimum jail sentence of two years.

After a few well-publicized cases, no employer would be willing to even think about hiring illegals.

In conjunction with that, allow local municipalities the power to jail illegals at their discretion and to notify the ICE, providing I.D. info.

There is no immediate panacea, but eventually, all illegals would simply leave, or not come here illegally in the first place.

People can still come here legally which is something you can't understand, L.A. All they have to do is file the paperwork. People who DON'T do the paperwork and sneak in are criminals.

We already have a LEGAL immigration system in this country. It doesn't need to be reformed.



Who's Listening?
"Keeps" asked in an earlier post "what can we do to get heard?" I feel the same way; I've written to and called the politicians who are supposed to represent me, yet it turns out that they either support the bill or voted for cloture yesterday. Now what? When your voice falls on deaf ears, who's left in the government to turn to? Politicians apparently don't need my vote anymore. It's almost enough to make me want to give up, sell everything, move my family into a fortified bunker somewhere in Idaho, and say to hell with this country. I'm angry beyond belief, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.

Death Bell
This is the death bell for the republican party. I now fully expect Hillary to be the next president and the redistribution of income to accelerate till there is no more production from people who invest in America. This may well be the bill that puts people over the edge and armed militias start to grow. Thank You Jorge Bush for killing our culture.

Toro
A belated heartfelt Thank You and a respectful salute is owed you. I happily do both for your courage and integrity to serve this nation. You may have felt obligated to do so and we are surely grateful that you did. But the reception you got when you came back was wholly inappropriate and disgusting. My apologies to you, Sir, for that abhorrent treatment. I, for one, like many others in this country, will not follow that path. It is our obligation and duty to honor men and women in uniform for the willingness to sacrifice everything to protect us. I will do my duty, Sir. Thank you!

As far as this disgusting amnesty thing is concerned, again, thank you to you AND your family for coming here LEGALLY! Most thinking Americans (apparently that is lacking in Congress today-thinking Americans, that is) have no problem with legal immigrants. Like you, they come here through a legal process, assimilate into our culture, become productive and responsible citizens, and share their ethnic traditions with us. I think that is fantastic! I welcome that with open arms. But these illegals, these thieving disease ridden roaches, they are not welcomed here. They don't belong here! They have earned NOTHING!

When my disgusting senator, Lindsay Graham, R-SC, told La Raza that being American was just an idea that belonged to everyone, I nearly puked! I'd love to see him say that to our founding fathers who sacrificed EVERYTHING to escape oppression just to start this nation. I'd LOVE to see him explain to our armed forces that they aren't really fighting for a country they love but an idea. Unfortunately, at this time, he is not being opposed here. He comes up for re-election in 08 and we don't know if there will be anyone running against him. If I could, I'd run against him in a heartbeat!!!

jmag
Don't give up so easily! Yes, Republicans are co-conspirators in this travesty, no doubt. However, don't forget it was a DEMOCRAP that is pushing this insanity on us as well. THE SAME DEMOCRAP THAT PUSHED THIS HORRID IDEA ON US IN 1965-TED KENNEDY! I hope we Americans will not forget this come election time. Although this issue may set up a third party to take control (hopefully but I'm skeptical that will happen), there are still a few Republicans willing to stand against this nauseating bill. Tom Tancredo is vehemently anti-illegals. So is Duncan Hunter. IF Fred Thompson throws his hat in the ring, he, too, would be a far cry from Hillary. I think most of America is seeing that and, hopefully, isn't betting on any Dem, ESPECIALLY that nasty Hillary. She reallllllllllllly sunk herself when talking about giving soc sec benefits to illegals, she said she didn't think it was "fair" to take THEIR nesteggs from THEM. You just KNOW that little tidbit will come up somehow when she is on the campaign trail. It ain't over yet!

Z-Visa
Maybe we should start referring to John McCain as Senator ZVisa McCain.

Rudy, ZVisa, and Mitt.

Where do the candidates stand?

.....with the mood of the public definetly anti-illegal immigration all candidate for President should be queried on how they would handle the problem of porous borders and illegal aliens .....COLOSSUS

I wonder...
I am furious about this bill and I feel anger and sadness for the thousands who have been going about the process of immigrating to this country legally. They are getting the shaft, too. I wish we could hear from them. If they had taken the illegal route, then they could have saved money and time by paying the $5,000 fine instead of lawyers to get them here the right way. I don't know when I've been this disappointed in the President. It's hypocritical for him to tell us his #1 job is to protect the country and his #1 goal is this nation's security, but allow every tom-dick-jane and harry who wants to get into the US, to do who-knows-what, scurry over the border.

David Mac:The question is logical
for all those like yourself who think disagree with this bill it's remedies like yours that prove to be "inane". Not only that they are based in some fantasy lala land..

you stated:

"To get people who have entered this country illegally to leave, prosecute the employers and give the officers of the business a 7-figure fine and mandatory minimum jail sentence of two years. After a few well-publicized cases, no employer would be willing to even think about hiring illegals. In conjunction with that, allow local municipalities the power to jail illegals at their discretion and to notify the ICE, providing I.D. info. There is no immediate panacea, but eventually, all illegals would simply leave, or not come here illegally in the first place."

If anything is stupid its your answer. NONE of what you suggest is going to happen. In particular that last sentence of yours take the cake. NOW THATS STUPID...LMAO


Kevin
Kevin wrote, "Politicians apparently don't need my vote anymore."


That's why the pols pander to groups and not to inidividuals. Pols see Hispanics as a huge voting block, so they'll never address you, Kevin, as an individual.

It's a real problem on how to get your rep and senators to listen. Most people simply join an organization of like-minded people and let the organization speak for them. The NRA is very successful in legislative matters and in supporting lawsuits.

There's strength in numbers. The illegals know that, which is why they conduct the huge marches. It angers me to see criminals marching to obtain "rights", but not as much as my federal government failing to enforce the law. Can you imagine how quickly you'd be arrested if you started an organization called "White American Males Against Illegal Aliens" and marched down the street in a major American city?

National defense and law enforcement take a huge bite out of our tax dollar. For the federal government to fail to enforce laws or fail to attack America's enemies is malfeasance, at best, and traitorous, at worst.

Kevin, there are MILLIONS of us all over the country who are just as angry as you. Do what you will, but never give up.



Toro, Liberty, Kevin,
What did you think would happen when the two parties have total control over the election process? I have explained on this site many times how the two parties have no fear of being held accountable because they have us convinced there is no other choice, nowhere else to go.
The answer to this and the other issues confronting America can be found on my website,
JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG
I am the only candidate that offers a real position on these issues, and I show how we can reclaim our inheritance by restoring the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people as the principles by which we govern ourselves as a free people.
I am the only candidate that has a published Campaign Platform which lays out these principles and goals. I urge you to visit the site and see that for once we do have a choice, there is a difference, we can break the cycle of partisan power that the two parties have engineered for their own re-election benefit.
If we elect another Democrat OR Republican in 2008, we will only guarantee more big government and continued decline in personal freedom. We must absolutely secure the future of this great nation and of our children from these elites who with total impunity disdain the Constitution and pursue their own agenda with no regard for the will of the people.
This is the election, this is the time, now is our opportunity! If it isn't now, then I ask you, exactly when will it be the time? Exactly how many more times can we elect the same corrupt hypocrites over and over, expecting different results? Why should we trust the same individuals to fix the problems which they created? Immigration "reform" is the classic example, since these elites screwed it up in 1986, and now we should trust them to make it right? Visit my website, check it out, send me your comments pro or con, but let's not fall for the propaganda again. This is our country, not theirs! We own it, and we should be able to have it our way! I am the only candidate for President that is willing and able to accomplish it. I have no ties to their political machines. PACs, and corrupt lobbyist money. I will serve the American people first and not any other politician running will be able to do that! Not one! Thanks, Joe

Left angle
You've posted enough times for everyone to understand your stupidity.

You can LYAO all you want, but you never refuted what I wrote.

Because you missed my point, here it is: To get rid of people who entered this country illegally, make it economically unfeasible to remain here.

That's the bottom line, kid. If illegals come here for economic reasons, remove those reasons and the illegals will leave.

Keep up the ad hominem attacks, it demonstrates your ignorance very well.

Re-reading some posts in here...
I am finding a few posters in here that have no problem handing over our country to foreigners. Some seem to justify the thievery by saying, "Well, what can we do about it?" I say there is PLENTY we can do about it! Round 'em up and deport them? Sure. Why not? Other countries would gladly do the same if it were masses of Americans invading their countries illegally.

Come down hard on businesses that employ illegals? ABSOLUTELY! How many Americans are 'laid off' so that illegals can snatch up those jobs? LOTS! No jobs = no motive to come here.

Cut off taxpayer funded benefits to illegals? IMMEDIATELY! Someone recently asked me, "But how do you KNOW they are illegal?" OH, cmon now! It ISN'T that hard to figure out! Trust me on that one! When a family of twelve applies for welfare and none of them speak English, it's a pretty good bet they are not American.

Make ENGLISH our FORMAL, NATIONAL LANGUAGE! No more printing government documents in more than one language. Gee, how much money would that save in the long run??? Anyone opposing that would most likely be illegal. Hmmmmmmmm.....there's lots of ways to determine who is and who is not here legally.

GIVE OUR BORDER PATROL AGENTS AND NATIONAL GUARD THE AUTHORITY TO DO THEIR JOBS! PERIOD! Even if it means using deadly force! Putting them on the border then telling them to run in the opposite direction when illegals approach them with less than honorable intent isn't doing these men and women justice. LET THEM DO THE JOBS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO! And STOP PERSECUTING THEM WHEN THEY DO DO THEIR JOBS! FREE RAMOS AND CAMPEON IMMEDIATELY! Protect agents when they face a lawsuit against them from foreigners who are only looking to rape and steal from us. There are a few agents who have lost their homes, their dignity, EVERYTHING because they had the audacity to do their jobs.

GET THAT WALL UP NOW! Stop twiddling our thumbs on this and GET IT DONE!

I'd send Mexico a bill for all the services they steal from us. Not that I expect Mexico to actually pay their dues to us but I'd send it anyway.

baseballdoc
It's NOT "illegal immigration". That's an oxymoron.

It's about people entering this country illegally. Immigration pertains to those who emigrated from their home country in order to enter this country LEGALLY and become American citizens.

Illegals have no intent on becoming American citizens, although they will lie about it in order to stay here.

When was the last time you heard an illegal say "I want to be an American"?

Your one of the smartest posters on TH.com. Why you insist that these people are "immigrants" is beyond me.

Toro
I too would like to thank you for your service in Viet Nam. I was in Viet Nam in 1968. Not as a service person or anything, but as a D.O.D. entertainer... I saw devoted men over there, doing their duty for their country..They guarded us as if we were gold...They loved their country,and I felt so priviliged to be among them.......I didn't actually say it at the time, I thought it was understood. Now I realize it wasn't, so I'm saying it now, THANK YOU1

Amerika the new northern state of Mexico
That is what will be within 10 years if our pres and his congress have their way with this immigration bill. But more than likely either that will happen or we will be in the middle of a civil war and there will be no more "American" culture.

These new and past illegal immigrants arent interested in becoming americans. They are not wanting to learn our customs, nor learn our language. That is evident in having muli-cultural laws and having to have everything printed in english and spanish as well as even recorded phone messages in both languages. All of it forced down the throats of LEGAL citizens.

I am tired of this. I am tired of MY American culture taking a back seat to every other culture in this world. Yes, we are a melting pot. But that doesnt mean that our culture is to be irradicated in favor of the culture of a bunch of illegals. Many cities in this country now celebrate Mexico's independence day. WHY?

I am sick of our politicians wanting to hand our country over to illegals and their apologists.

baseball
I agree wholeheartedly that all candidates should be publicly questioned as to their standing on this issue. Unfortunately, the msm is reluctant to give this issue serious air time. Not surprising since the msm is more or less Democratically controlled. Fortunately, and much to the angst of the msm/Democrat party, there are other ways to get information on candidates. The internet is a wonderful thing, ain't it??? :D

This is awful
I just saw an interview of an illegal alien on Fox. He's all excited about this bill because now, he can get his family over here. Lord, where does this all stop?

I voted for this president. Now, he's giving my country away. He is acting like the worst kind of Liberal moonbat. I can't believe it.

Wake me when it's over!!!!


David Mac: I'm in awe of your brilliance
Let me tell you..I have shown some of the rather "brilliant" ideas posted here in TH to friends and associates of mine and they like me shake their heads in disbelief at the utter bizzareness of conservatives.

you stated:

Because you missed my point, here it is: To get rid of people who entered this country illegally, make it economically unfeasible to remain here.That's the bottom line, kid. If illegals come here for economic reasons, remove those reasons and the illegals will leave.

Let me ask you with all due respect.

Do you actually think anything you posted is going to be implemented by the U.S. government in regards to solving the immigration problem?

It is called the North American Union
THAT is what this is all about.

Do you folks think I'm just kidding when I say that? Do you think there's not enough proof to substantiate that claim, or what? I ask, because I truly am confused why hardly no one here talks about this.

Now, I'm not inviting attacks, but if you must, knock your socks off. I'm asking the question because I'm truly perplexed.

baseballdoc
I'm aware of only 3... Paul, Tancredo and Hunter.

Left Angle: Here's how you round 'em up
First of all, just because you can't capture every lawbreaker doesn't mean you simply give them all amnesty. How about murderers and robbers? We don't get all of them, either.


As to rounding up the ones we can: Every time they show up at the emergency room, put 'em on a bus back south. Kids in school? Bus 'em south. They're grouping together for another of their street demonstrations? ICE rounds 'em up and puts 'em on the bus south. Raids like the one in Arkansas. No more "catch and release". Enforce the 1986 law and give their employers jail time. Stopped for a traffic violation, jail and deport 'em. This is the only law on the books that isn't enforced when you're stopped for a ticket; see what happens if you have an outstanding warrant. Check the status of all the day workers hanging around the hardware store.

Pretty soon, you'll have rounded up a LOT of them, and made the environment so hostile they'll start self-deporting.

Sounds pretty effective to me.

hipybikr
Since you named me in your post, I will respond to you. You should know well by now who I am supporting. I am supporting him for many of the reasons you state. I agree with you that the majority are bought and sold, but I have known this man long enough to know that he is not.

Liberty
I think you can add Newt to your list.

BTW
Click my name to read my on-topic essay "The Bush Legacy"

Shameless self-promotion, but why not? I'M here legally!


DavidMac
You're writing some good stuff. I do wonder where Left Angle is coming from. Is he lost in wishful thinking? Is he taking a knee jerk leftish stance merely because it is the PC left wing position of Kennedy et al? Does he have a financial consideration he is defending? He say employeers will never be fined for breaking the law. How can he be so sure? If a few legislators who are leading the charge to prevent enforcement of the law lose the next election, it may well get enforced. The GOP RINOs who turned their back on the voters who elected them took a pasting, and more to come. I wonder how Specter and Graham will do next time. As for hastening the self-deportation of the illegal aliens, i advocate internment of those arrested, rather than deportation which usually only lasts until sunset and their next try to sneak in. As you say, we wouldn't have to arrest them all. A few thousand sent to Alaska to build roads by day and sleep behind razor wire at night will make being an illegal alien quite unpopular.
Just heard some of the provisions of this new law. It will be at least 10 times as expensive to enforce as deporting aliens. Can you imagine administering a point system on illegal aliens? Its absolutely positively insane, and anyone who supports it in any way has some other agenda than correcting the illegal alien mess.

Brian R: In response
I'm gonna ask you the same thing I asked David Mac.

I fully understand what both of you suggest as
solutions to the illegal alien problem but once again,

realistically speaking how much of what you suggest do you think the U.S. and state governments are going to implement in response to the problem?

I hate to say it but in my viewpoint:

NONE OF IT.

Also, Left Angle
When someone asnwers your question with a plan, and your only answer is along the lines of "The government will never do THAT", well, that's not an answer; it simply highlights exactly what the problem is. So why should we believe one thing we're promised about this ridiculous bill other than it's just another and huger round of amnesty?


Left Angle
Looks like I just answered your question while we were both writing at the same time.


Loribme
I think you have a near perfect prescription for how to deal with the problem. If we'd immediately cut out the free handouts and penalize companies who hired them, can't you imagine how many would self-deport, not to mention the attraction for coming here to begin with would dry up?

I would add... NO BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP... to the list though.

nanna
Ok, but he's not announced, has he?

Left Angle
That's a puzzler, isn't it?


Brian R: a response.
ok lets say what you, david mac and other conservatives opposed to this bill are logical solutions to the problem, however from what I am reading their is a huge resistance at the federal and state levels to implement the things you mention. would you care to speculate as to why that is?

Left Angle has
no interest in considering whether cracking down on illegal aliens would work. He merely says it will never happen. It certainly hasn't happened over the last 20 years. If he is correct, discussion of possible solutions that will never be implemented is futile. So the real solution is that voters must punish politicians that prevent enforcement. Bush is the executive, so he obviously is number 1 miscreant, followed closely by all the legislators buying campaign money by interfering for their constituencies. Once again, if the voters permit it, it will occur and increase. In the final analysis, the buck stops in the voting booth. Heads must roll before the pols pay any slightest attention to the voters. The current 95% re-election rate enables the pols to do what's best for them and to heck with the voters, the country, and their oath of office.

Now to really make you angry
The amnesty of 1986 was supposed to be a "one time only" amnesty. Yet since 1986, Congress passed a total of 7 amnesties for illegal aliens:

The Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA) Amnesty of 1986 - the "one-time only" blanket amnesty for some 2.8 million illegal aliens.
Section 245(i) The Amnesty of 1994 - a temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens.
Section 245(i) The Extension Amnesty of 1997 - an extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994.
The Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty of 1997 - an amnesty for nearly one million illegal aliens from Central America.
The Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA) of 1998 - an amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti.
The Late Amnesty of 2000 - an amnesty for approximately 400,000 illegal aliens who claimed they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty.
The LIFE Act Amnesty of 2000 - a reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty to an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens.

h/t RJ at http://newsbusters.org/node/12918

It is clear by the track record that neither ICE nor the Congress have any intension of enforcing the law, just papering over their failures! Build the Fence NOW!!!!!!

Left angle: No, I would not
care to speculate, because it's irrelevant. The salient point is that we have laws on the books that you yourself point out are not being enforced, laws we were told in 1986 were the justification for giving amnesty to 3 million illegals.

It was a flat-out lie.

So now we're being told we should give amnesty to another 12 - 25 million, and we're promised yet ANOTHER round of laws that will "solve the future" problem. Let's face it, we all know the only real effect of this new law will be the amnesty, with all the promised changes again going by the boards.

Fence? Never happen. They'll just refuse to appropriate money for it. Same with new BP agents. Who's going to enforce the "Z" visa provisions? Why should we believe any of it? It's all a great big lie, just like in 1986.

I heard all this before, in 1986. It was a lie then, and it's another lie now.


liberty
ty i missed one anchor babies frankly i think that should be retroactive at least 30 years not that im holding my breath on that one but yeah cut that insanity out too

gently 99: Its all about the Benjamins$$
IMHO the reason none of what you guys who oppose the bill will happen is because of M-O-N-E-Y.

It's my belief that large and small corporations are addicted to "cheap labor". There are jobs of a menial variety that americans simply will not
take and if they do it means at a higher wage rate.

you say fine and jail the employers who hire illegal aliens and without economic incentive the illegals will just go home? a logical assumption, but totally unrealistic in practice and execution.

I say that will never happen
because these large and small corporations
are the biggest donators of $$$ to BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES and I think its THEM who are lobbying the federal and local govt.for passage of the bill because it ENRICHES THEM THE BOTTOM LINE. (PROFIT).

in other words BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE INVOLVED and being made of the backs of the illegals and they dont want the laws enforced as you suggest
nor will they be enforced as you suggest.

I'm just passing this on....
This came from a group called "Downsize DC" that I get email alerts from. It was started by Harry Browne. It's a pretty good group, IMO. Here's what I just received:

--------------------------

Here's what's at stake . . .

The immigration controversy, and the legislation it has spawned, has become a Trojan Horse for imposing the REAL ID Act on all Americans, and entangling all of us in a bureaucratic nightmare of apocalyptic proportions.

Think for a moment about all the problems there have been with the terrorist watch list. Think about all the innocent Americans who have been placed on this list for no discernible reason, and the trouble people have had getting off this list. Now . . .

Imagine this same kind of bureaucratic nightmare expanding to entangle every job and business in America. This is what the REAL ID provisions of the new Senate Immigration Bill (S. 2611) will bring about.

The offending section is Title III which will require . . .

Every employer in America to pre-screen every worker for every job they're ever offered for the rest of their lives, regardless of the size of the business, or the job.

The cost to the federal government ALONE is estimated by the feds themselves (so you know it's low) at $11.7 billion per year.

The costs to businesses may be even higher. This will raise the cost of hiring new people and foster unemployment. But that's only the beginning of the trouble.

Every American will have to produce a Real ID license to get a job—no exceptions. I think we can see where this is going . . .

Proving our identity, and proving that we are innocent, is about to become a requirement for living.

Taking this approach could certainly solve the problem of prison over-crowding, because under REAL ID deadbeat Moms and Dads, drunk drivers, jaywalkers, and anybody else who does anything wrong at any time, can all be punished simply and quickly, without prison, and perhaps without trial, simply by turning them into a non-person in terms of the required employment background check.

But let's say you don't ever do anything wrong, but you still end up with a black mark next to your name anyway, just like what has happened to people with the terrorist watch list? How long will it take, and how much will it cost, to get your name cleared?

And what if you can't get your name cleared, simply because of bureaucratic inefficiency, like with the terrorist watch list?

Will you starve because you can't get a job? And what about your family? Your kids?

Meanwhile, under these provisions, the black market gets a further government "price support" for fake IDs. Anything can be faked. If a thing can be made by government it can be forged by criminals. This includes birth certificates and other documents required to obtain a so-called REAL ID.

Politicians who talk about tamper proof ID cards are idiots babbling nonsense.

But it gets worse. The federal government is trying to box in the states that have rejected the REAL ID program by making all of the citizens of those states effectively illegal persons!

Plus, new federal funding for state programs will only be given to states that comply with REAL ID. The Feds are trying to both bribe and coerce the states into complying.

What's worse, most of the Senate may not even realize these provisions are in the immigration bill, or what their impact would be. The bill is huge, and complicated. As of this writing it hasn't even been printed yet, and it's very unlikely the Senators will even read the bill before they pass it into law.

You've been warned. If you want to heed the warning please send a message to both the House and Senate telling them to strip out all REAL ID related provisions from any immigration bill they are considering.

left angle
you are wrong again! states ARE implementing anti-illegal bills! 13 at last count as far as I know including my own state, SC. we just need to get that turncoat Graham out of office. also, currently, 100 LOCAL municipalities, INCLUDING MY OWN, have or are trying to implement ordinances against illegals. if there are enough towns and states telling the federal government enough is enough, it could tip the scale in our favor.

Left angle: I'll make this easy for you
Split this proposal into two different bills.

One a straight security bill, providing for the border fences, beefed up BP personnel, fast deportation of illegals, employer sanctions, funding, other enforcement mandates.

The second bill would be the amnesty provisions, with the silly "Z" visa.

See which one gets popular support.


loribme: that may well be...
but if coporate america wants this bill passed it will be passed because of the MONEY involved as i stated above.

those anti-illegal bills youre speaking of when passed into law are subject to lawsuits that could very well end up in the USSC.

All i can say is good luck because my belief is the side with the MONEY is gonna win without a doubt.

LA, gotta laugh
I see you've elected not to answer my earlier post responding to your question about speculation.

I understand.


Left Angle
Now you are talking. Of course its money. My posts have mentioned the problem of non-enforcement has been created by legislative pressure in response to campaign financing. But there is a cure. The voters can throw out politicians who benefit the few, themselves, and ignore the rest of the country. Their whole goal is re-election. If it means defeat at the polls, no employer could buy non-enforcement. We get the govt we want. If more voters want illegal aliens in numbers which are diluting and if continued will submerge the current culture of the United States, then this is what we will have. I don't want this to happen. I will vote against it. What about you? You don't ever discuss the pros and cons, just say enforcement won't happen. This is what you want, right? A United States the works just like Mexico, or China, or Albania at providing economic opportunity or law enforcement not totally dependent on La Mordida.

Brian R: Sorry about that,,,lol
I had to step away for a minute,but actually i agree with you except read my post to gently99.

like I was telling him, IMHO its all tied into
MONEY as to why none of the enforcement of existing laws is happening. thats what I trying to get you to speculate on.

SECURE THE BORDER????
HOW CAN WE SECURE 2,000 miles border with 370 mile fence????????????????
Illegals will walk around it like we walk around a pile of sh*t on the road.....
Elected gods still think we are total idiots!
Just remember:
crossing the border illegally - a federal crime
falsifying documents - a felony
I would like to pay $5,000 fine and not to pay taxes for several years.
WHO REPRESENTS US?
USA -RIP - 1776-2010.
(signed/buried in Waco, TX, March 23, 2005)

solutions.....
How would President Crawfish handle this mess? Glad you asked! (what? You didn't? Must be them little voices again.)

a) First step is to secure the border. A few battalions of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, heavily armed and with orders to prevent any unauthorized incursion into our sovereign territory by any and all means necessary (deadly force authorized and encouraged), ought to do the trick. A couple of months of bodies piling up should discourage further encoursions. If the Mexican armed forces attempt to assist the invasion, toast 'em.

b) Immediately end all social services to non-drybacks. If ya ain't legal, ya gets nothing.

c) Immediately end the anchor baby interpretation. Make a federal law that a child born in the US only gets auto-citizenship if the parents are here in a legal status.

d) Any business that's caught with illegals working for it shall immediately forfeit all assets to the federal government and the head of the company and the head of it's personnel department shall be imprisoned for a minimum of 10 years (that's minimum assuming good behavior, etc.).

e) All monetary transfers from banks in the USA to accounts south of the border shall have a 35% fee placed upon them by the federal government.

f) Any illegal who is picked up on any crime shall not be released before the court date. All illegals who are convicted of crimes (state or federal) shall be sent to a new federal prison to be erected in Death Valley. No air conditioning for anybody but the guard staff. No activities for recreation at all. No TV. No radio. Space for each inmate is to be equivilent to that in E-5 and below berthing aboard the now decomm'd USS John F Kennedy. Sheriff Joe's Famous Bologna Sammiches three times per day. Upon completion of sentence, the inmate will be loaded aboard a ship and dropped off in Acapulco. If the Mexicans don't like it, we'll drop 'em off off-shore.

g) Any municipality, county, state, etc, that declares itself a sanctuary for illegals shall immediately lose ALL federal funding for ALL projects. All contracts with said city/etc shall be null and void, as shall all contracts for businesses within that area.

h) All federal government documents, including voting ballots, etc, shall be in ENGLISH ONLY unless they are for tourist and/or customs/immigration business. Why make voting ballots in English? Because that's the language the campaign info is distributed in, the language that the debates are in, the language of the speeches, and the language that you're required to be proficient in to get citizenship.

If the Mexican government complains, my response is...."Too bad. If your government wasn't so screwed up you'd have one of the best economies in the world. As is, your people would rather not be in your country. Fix your own mess!"

I'm a libertarian-leaning conservative who believes the law of the land needs to return to being the CONSTITUTION. The views expressed here are my own. If they have hacked off anybody, I don't care.

gently 99: MONEY Talks..BS walks.lol
Look, I understand where you are coming from on principal, but I'm telling you that if corporate america wants this bill to pass (and they do) it will get thru and Bush will sign it,
because he KNOWS the hand that feeds him.

the republican party is PRO-BIG BUSINESS, its their largest donor $$$ pool and if they are making a killing of off "cheap labor" by illegal aliens they arent going to be pushing for enforcement.

with the democrats, heck yes they benefit from it also in terms of a potential voting base.

lets say its a 50/50 split for the hispanic vote in the next major prez/congressional elections
if this bill passes. I'd say they both win.

Personally, I believe in diversity and legality, but the logistics of deporting 12 billion people isnt practical, so in a way I'm still looking at both of sides to come up with some type of logical compromise.

LA: Sure
That is certainly part of the problem, but that's no reason to support doing the same thing again.

As Einstein observed, insanity is repeating the same action while expecting a different outcome.

This bill must not pass, and for exactly these reasons.

Do we actually agree on this?

Letter to the RNC

.....REPORT FROM THE FIELD
>
>
> .....The mood is dark and rebellious ...
>
> .....Have your staff read the articles on
> Townhall.com
> ...they are almost exclusively about Illegal
> immigration and amnesty ...
>
> .....The comments range from Bush is a traitor and
> is
> selling us out to Mexico ...Bush is Ted Kennedy's
> sock
> puppet and Kennedy is the de facto President
> ...passage of the Bill will be the straw that breaks
> the back of the American Republic and destroys the
> Republican Party as a political force forever ...the
> RNC has betrayed the principles of the Conservative
> base ...the illegals will all vote for the Democrats
> and the Democrats will destroy free enterprise and
> give us Socialism ...
>
> .....It's all doom, gloom, misery and despair and
> talk
> of betrayal and revolt in the ranks ...
>
> .....COLOSSUS

We don't want ILLEGALS here
rounding them up & sending them back works; it can even happen in the moonbat state of swine Kennedy & fop Kerry, yes despite a 90% liberal control of the state and objections by the moonbat governor for being too rough on the ILLEGALS...a bunch were recently rounded up at a sweat shop & sent home...one ILLEGAL woman claimed, had she known this might happen, she never would have come...next day American workers showed up to get these jobs the ILLEGALS had taken...
Lessons learned: 1) Don't come here ILLEGALLY or you'll be sent home
2) Slam the sweat shop owner with a monstrous fine for giving these ILLEGALS the incentive

Hopeless situation
Curing the illegal immigration problem is hopeless as long as we have the present Congress and President. If the President signs this Bill if it gets that far this will be his legacy, as was the "read my lips" legacy of his father. Apparently the genetic pool of our Politicians does not include any gene's related to Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin or Ronald Regan. It is sad that so many young and old Americans died during prior Wars so that the idiots in Congress can contribute to the downfall of America as it used to be.

Brain R. : put it like this...
I agree with you on the pricipal of law and order. I just dont think your solutions are realistic or practical. If you throw 12 million people out of the country, beccause they are here illegally, they WILL find a way to get back in legally or otherwise. It's a complicated issue that has to have some sort of compromise.
What does it say on the Statue of Liberty? Doesnt that come into play?

Furthermore you can say MONEY is PART of the problem, but i think its has to do with everything BEHIND the problem. and like I'm saying if coporate america wants this bill to
pass, it will pass thru intense lobbying efforts. Your stand is admirable on principle, but in the end MONEY rules the day.



DESIGNED TO DESTROY THIS NATION
IF YOU CANNOT CONCIEVE A BLATANT ACT OF TREASON, THEN YOU HAVE JUST WITNESSED IT'S TAKING PLACE BY A GROUP OF CONGRESSIONAL ROYALS AND A LAME DUCK ADMINSTRATION.

THIS FARCE CALLED AMNESTY BY ALL BUT THOSE WHO PERPETRATED IT WAS A MALICIOUS ATTEMPT TO BRING DOWN THIS COUNTRY AND THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. THIS WAS AN INENDED ACTION PERCIEVED AND EXECUTED BY SOCIALIST LIBS, RINO'S AND MARXIST REPRESENTING ILLEGALS (CRIMINALS). MORE THAN LIKELY IT WAS FINANCED BY EVERY FORIGN ENTITY THAT WISHES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HARM, I DO NOT SAY THIS LIGHTLY AND I AM SERIOUS AS TO WHAT I SAY JUST TOOK PLACE.

NOW THAT OPEN WARFARE HAS BEEN DECLARED BY THE SOCIALIST, LIBS AND THE RINOS AND THEY MAKE NO BONES ABOUT IT, NOW IS THE TIME TO RESPOND TO THAT PHRASE WE ALL KNOW, "WHEN IN THE COURSE OF HUMAN EVENTS......" IT IS TIME FOR THIS NATION TO UNDERGO AN UNPRECEDENTED POLITICAL ENEMA TO REGAIN THE DIGNITY AND PURPOSE OF THIS NATION...ASAP

One more time S L O W L Y
We as Americans like LEGAL immigration.
If we enforce the laws we have against employers the illegals will go home.
Wages will rise for American workers.
No welfare for illegals.
No rentals to illegals.
No school for illegals.
THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY!


Left Angle
We agree on the money, which buys action in DC. Do you agree that no amount of money can buy influence if the politician who takes the money is voted out next election? Corporations have bucks, but they don't have many votes. As an optimistic conservative, i vote for policy i believe will benefit all Americans. Perhaps you have other motives. I ask again, do you want the current illegal alien situation to continue and worsen? If so, your posts make sense, you are trying to discourage opponents. If you would like to see a solution, but merely and cynically think opposition is futile, why bother to post? Can't possibly make any difference.

LA: Riddle me this
If my proposals aren't practical, what is going to magically make the current proposals practical?

And if they're not -- as you seem to posit -- then why don't you simply admit that the new proposals aren't going to be enforced any more effectively than the old ones were, and the new bill is in reality a plain and simple amnesty?

And don't try to put lipstick on the pig about some paltry fine that's meaningless. How many potential illegals would happily pay the few thousand bucks to get here?

The question is very simple. You are saying that the only meaningful aspect of the current proposal is the legalization of the illegals, right?

BTW, LA
No, the Emma Lazarus quote on the Statue of Libert has nothing to do with this. I don't recall a single line about breaking the law to get here.

The Welcome mat at the front door of my house doesn't mean you can enter without permission.


Amnesty

Where did this notion come from that we can't send all these criminals back home?

President Hoover did it during the great depression & President Eisenhauer did it following WWll.

Conservatives should see that it is done again as Liberals don't want it done as they figure on the criminals voting their way.

Behold the "War On Immigration"
Kuwald writes: "Left angle, above, asked just how we thought 12 million illegals would be rounded up and deported?
The same way you do anything else; one at a time, for as long as it takes."

I see. In other words, you want to create a no-win "War on Illegal Immigration," analogous to the no-win "War on Drugs." We will just keep arresting, arresting, arresting, arresting, year after year, with no end in sight.

That approach has NEVER solved a major social pathology:

Rousting drug users has not stopped the use of illegal drugs--the War on Drugs has been a colossal failure that dwarfs Iraq and Vietnam combined.

Rousting prostitutes has not stopped prostitution--we've tried that for TWO THOUSAND YEARS, without success.

Rousting pornographers has not stopped pornography.

There was a time in this country when we tried to roust producers of alcohol--Prohibition--and that didn't stop alcohol abuse either.

Now your solution to an endless supply of illegal immigrants is just to sic cops and troops on them.

Why do we do these things to ourselves? We do these things because it soothes us emotionally to use force, and it enables us to avoid facing up to the very real underside of our "civilization," even though intellectually we know it doesn't work.

The real problem underlying immigration is that in an increasingly globalized world, our economy now depends on cheap labor and cheap foreign goods, even though minimum wage laws prevent our own workers from working for such low wages. We like paying low prices for fast food, in restaurants, in hotels, in supermarkets. But we also like to pay our own workers a minimum wage which prices them out of these low-paying jobs.

The reason the war in Iraq and the energy problems haven't created stagflation like the 1970s is entirely due to such globalization holding down rising costs. Replace globalization with nativism and watch both inflation and economic stagnation get worse, just like the 1970s.

You can't fix that structural problem with cops and troops.

One more thing. The nativist streak I see here is also disturbing--"preserving our culture" and whatnot. Apparently folks here are genuinely afraid that the GOP has nothing to offer immigrants anymore--that all these Hispanic immigrants will forever vote Democrat. What has become of the GOP commitment to upward mobility and entrepreneurship and empowerment? Aren't those things that all minorities would aspire to?

If the GOP has really devolved into a nativist "Christian White People's Party," then it deserves to decline into permanent minority status. It's not the Republican party that someone like Teddy Roosevelt or Ronald Reagan would have approved of.

my 2 cents
left angle - good question

There is not really anything that can be done about illegal imimigration - if there is a raid and illegals are taken into custody the next story or in the same story is the effect that it has on their kids, local clergymen stand up in protest, etc.

And the beat goes on

The bill does nothing but provide political cover for everyone concerned. The right hates it because of the holes in it and because it has kennedy's name on it, I have no idea why the left hates it but I feel that they probably do. If everyone hates it it must be ok and therefore it provides

political cover

our reps wanted to get this out of the way asap so they can get back to their usual bs. I originally thought it was going to get pushed through but now it looks as if someone in washington has suddenly grown a backbone and the latest is that it's not going to get pushed through asap. The debate should be interesting.

And the more interesting it gets the gooder left angle's question gets


Left Angle: You're right
It's about money and cheap labor. RealClear
Politics is reporting today that political donations, especially for Republicans, are drying up. I'm hearing more and more people, Republican an Democrat, saying that they are re-registering as unaffiliated independents. Party registration has been in decline for over two years as it is.

As to cheap labor, their is always big demand for slave labor. We had a civil war over this issue once too many already. If our politicians get any less popular, we may be headed that way again. Remember, the biggest victims in the amnesty bill will be the poor people who are barely making it now. And we are going to flood the marketplace with ever poorer people for them to compete against? That is alot of angry, desperate if you ask me.

Lindsey Graham: Hard workers wanted
You people in South Carolina remember what Lindsey Graham called you yesterday. When he was booed while making his case for amnesty at the SC Republican convention, he called the audience “bigots”. So, according to Graham, if you are concerned about illegal immigration, you are a bigot.

One other thing. I am sick and tired of hearing how hard these illegals work. You know the old line, “We are not criminals. We just want to work.” That old line doesn’t work anymore with common sense people. I personally have relatives overseas who are hard workers and have been waiting for their turn for years. They, too, only want to work. They cannot get in, because these slime-bag illegals, who jumped in front of the line, have taken their place. There are literally millions of people who are applying to enter this country “legally” and work hard. So, don’t give me anymore of this crab about how hard illegals work!!

Hard working?
29% of them are on welfare and how many more are in prison?

Bucking supply and demand
Left Angle writes: "If you throw 12 million people out of the country, because they are here illegally, they WILL find a way to get back in legally or otherwise."

I agree with you.
The problem is that the vast majority of Americans, together with a bunch of cynical politicians, have forgotten the economic law of supply and demand. Most Americans don't understand it, and politicians try to use government power to suppress it.

But despite all the attempts by both the Left and the Right to legislate it away, it stubbornly won't go away.

And that law predicts that a government's attempt to interfere with supply leads to rising prices. Rising prices then become an inducement to other suppliers to increase supply once more.

That's why the War on Drugs has failed.

That's why treating any social pathology--drugs, prostitution, pornography--as a criminal problem has failed. The law enforcement agencies just end up playing "Whack-a-mole" with drug pushers, pimps and pornographers--arrest a few and a dozen more spring up elsewhere. And it goes on, futilely, year after year.

Now conservatives are proposing to fight illegal immigration the same failed way we fight drugs--playing "Whack-a-Mole" with migrants sneaking across the border.

Conservatives, who should understand better than anyone else the law of supply and demand that drives any economic market, will likewise ignore that law when it gets in the way of one of their pet social concerns--just like liberals do.

SteveL: You're right
We can't enforce any of our laws 100%, so let's just make everything legal! Then we'll also have a 100% crime-free society, since there won't be any crimes anymore!

Don't like your neighbor's dog? Shoot it! Neighbor objects? Hell, shoot him, too!


Who Are The Bigots?

A word about The National Council of the Race (La Raza in Spanish). I use the English translation for clarity as most do not know what it means. Before anyone wants to call me a racist, I did not name the organization, the organizers did. For me this issue is not about race at all. I don't care where an illegal alien is from, it is the fact that they entered our country illegally that motivates me to oppose amnesty. I know and like people from everywhere.

"For those of the Race everything. For those not of the Race nothing!" (Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada).

This is the motto of The National Council of The Race

Hound dog
Good reminder. There is nothing illegal aliens are doing that can not be done by legal residents. If enforcement of immigration law produces a shortage of workers (highly doubtful) open the legal quotas. If wages below the idiotic minimum wage are beneficial, lower the minimum wage, or provide for a lower minimum wage for non-citizen aliens. Every argument i've seen for the status quo is a straw man or a non-sequitur. Any politician who supports any new law purporting to be a solution has some agenda other than solving the problem. Non-enforcement IS the problem and a new law is worthless without enforcement. From the little i've heard the 800 page law is a tangled mess which would require easily 10 times the effort and money that deportation would incur. And immigration law enforcement would make deportation unecessary.

Since when was it legal..
...to profit from a commission of a crime (government aside)?

If aliens are Here illegally, then their entire "paycheck" should be confiscated. They could work for free or go home.

Let's not mention that racist Abe Lincol
The only slaves he wanted to free were the black slaves! What about the others? Shouldn't the white, Chinese, Russian and eskimo slaves have been freed too?

Right Mind
Who in their right mind wants to be a border patrol agent, thinking of Ramos and Compean moldering away in prison? For that matter, who wants to be in the military and fight under the auspices of political correctness and an eye out for "world opinion?" Patton must be turning over in his grave.
We are now living under the rule of the most unresponsive government in our nation's history. Republicans and Democrats both don't give a rat's behind what the people think or care about on any issue. We can hold their feet to the fire, dump them like we did the Republicans last November and then realize quickly that we have only put in worse people.
We are runnning out of time. The question should be ... at what point do we pick up our guns and do what Thomas Jefferson said we had the right to do. It's on his monument in DC.

REAL reform.
I do NOT particularly think building a "Berlin wall" type of fence is the answer to illegal immigration, though it could help some. The REAL solution lies elsewhere: Assessing HUGE penalties against those who employ illegal aliens and not rewarding the illegals' law breaking with repeated (every few years) offerings of "amnesty" IS the key to a FINAL solution to the immigration problem.

http://OsiSpeaks.com or http://OsiSpeaks.org

The reason this immigration fiasco
is on the fast track

Politicians of both parties want it in place well before the 2008 elections for several reasons.

1. Business interests have invested heavily in bribes, (campaign contributions) to both parities.

That would be primarily folks that provide services to the hotel and entertainment industry.

Labor unions also are pushing this, as they believe that they will be able to unionize large numbers of these newly minted citizens.

2. If this is a done deal before the end of the year, then it is not a campaign issue for any of the incumbents.

Nobody can run against them by saying that they would oppose this legislation if they are elected, because it is already a done deal.

-----
"We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. "
H. L. Mencken



Check this out
Get this: ICE would have ONE DAY to process clearance requests, and the default would be to grant applications unless ICE issued a hold. ONE DAY! They take coffee breaks longer than that!

Cal
"If this is a done deal before the end of the year, then it is not a campaign issue for any of the incumbents."

Wrong, Cal. If a candidate votes for the bill, regardless of whether or not the bill passes, he will have a target on his back. The voters have never been more incensed by any issue like this one. They will vote against him, no matter who the opponent is.

Hound Dog
I understand your reply, but that part is not relevent.

Billions of dollars are at stake for the people pushing congress to pass this trash.

If it gets passed prior to 2008, it will be done and can't be undone. The congressmen who will be voting for this will be compensated quite nicely by lobbyists pushing for this, and won't particularly care one way or another if they get bumped out.

If it doesn't get passed prior to 2008, then it will become a campaign issue that will give any challanger a leg up by pledging to vote against anything this blatently wrong.

polls of adults
Polls of adults on the immigration issue include the preferences of illegal immigrants. That is maybe more than 10+ percent of all respondents. That biased miss sampling skews the results substantially.

That bias may be suppressing the poll numbers of Romney and other anti immigration types in favor of Hillary, McCain and Rudy. It would be like giving Hillary an extra 10 points on top of what she actually polled in head to head match ups.

Only polls of likely voters with tight likely voters screens should be given credence.

fence
A fence stopped the suicide bombers in Israel. It can stop the illegal immigration if done right.

Insult
I've always considered it an insult to hear a mealy-mouthed politician utter the phrase "Jobs Americans won't do". This phrase insults many HARD-WORKING FAMILIES in America. My family worked stoop labor in the seventies.

I'm not talking about the current technical farming. I'm talking about the old way, where tomatoes and okra (to name two) are planted by hand in hundred acre fields. Where the same are worked by hand with the greatest technical tool being a hoe. Where you spend endless HOURS with your butt higher than your head as you prune and pick. Where you pick okra wearing gloves and the okra tears through the gloves and your hands until blood is mixing with the crop being picked. From sunup till sundown, seven days a week.

I joined the Army to escape the very drudgery of this life. I literally laughed at the other guys in Basic training when they whined about how hard Basic was. I volunteered for Ranger training and found it to be a breeze too. I came back home, bought a hundred acre farm and the ONLY vegetables that are grown are in my small kitchen garden out back.

These people who "Do the jobs Americans just won't do" have NO idea about long, hard work for short pay. I've seen them at the local grocery store cashing checks that I could have only dreamed of. I've seen them in Wal-Mart spending money like there is no tomorrow. I've seen them at the bank sending drafts for more than I could have made in a month to Mexico.

I'd like to see ONE of these wussie congress-critters do the things I did, for the hours I did them, at the age of twelve. They would probably keel over and die.

This bill needs to be trounced and thrown out with the trash that it is along with any congress-critter who votes for it.

You fail because you haven't the will
SteveL writes: Tuesday, May, 22, 2007 1:54 PM
Bucking supply and demand
Left Angle writes: "If you throw 12 million people out of the country, because they are here illegally, they WILL find a way to get back in legally or otherwise."

I agree with you.
The problem is that the vast majority of Americans, together with a bunch of cynical politicians, have forgotten the economic law of supply and demand. Most Americans don't understand it, and politicians try to use government power to suppress it.

But despite all the attempts by both the Left and the Right to legislate it away, it stubbornly won't go away.

And that law predicts that a government's attempt to interfere with supply leads to rising prices. Rising prices then become an inducement to other suppliers to increase supply once more.

That's why the War on Drugs has failed.

(snip)

Conservatives, who should understand better than anyone else the law of supply and demand that drives any economic market, will likewise ignore that law when it gets in the way of one of their pet social concerns--just like liberals do.
-------------------------------------
No on both counts. Mostly the war on drugs fails because the Executive and Congressional branches of America do not have the fortitude to do what is necessary to counteract criminal behavior.

Amazingly enough, the same is true for illegal immigration. We have groups actively breaking the law in southern California. Public Schools lie daily about not knowing the nationality of their students. The 800+ people a day that Chula Vista SSA office processes are intimately instructed in Spanish how to get the most benefits out of the government. San Diego cops ignore obvious traffic violations by Mexican commerce in support of NAFTA while American truckers are required to comply explicitly with vehicle codes.

The actions of responsible authority only are placed at the feet of citizens who then have identities, benefits, and employment opportunities removed by the introduction of slave labor.

Place me in charge of governing the implementation of federal law and there would be a lot of law breakers deported and jailed, tomorrow. I could easily plow through all 20 million in a year. I guarantee that illegal aliens would not be working as employers who did not comply with federal law would be in jail. Them, their grandmas in federally funded nursing homes, every single one would be ousted in favor of citizens that obeyed the law instead of making continual excuses why they had to follow supply and demand.

Politicians
"A good politician is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar. "
H. L. Mencken

TO THE PRIMARIES
Friends and fellow Conservatives, we must not allow the RINOs to take over the party. They do not have complete control but we need strong conservative leadership. IF WE STAY HOME IN 2008 WE WILL LOOSE EVERYTHING!!! That tired old stratagy does not work not now or ever. It sends no message to our representatives and it emboldens the Democrats. I promise you if the Democrats get in this time they will twist this country and mess her up so bad there will be nothing left to save. We must go vote!!! And there will NEVER be another third party independent that can capture the conservative vote. Remember 1992 and Bill Clinton. All you will do is divide our base and allow the Dems to conquere. But there is HOPE, we can retake the party. We must go to the primaries with conservative canidates and do whatever it takes to run the RINOs out. Let them changes parties. The Republican party is OUR party and Reagan's party. He showed us the way. We have a great history but we have lost our way. Write Congress and tell them we won't take this and then get your butts in gear and find out how to start grassroots efforts to win primaries. That is where the battle must be won. Do it today.

Fivo
The law of supply and demand is indeed powerful and i would be the last to ignore it. But life and death is more powerful still, and draconian punishments work. Enforcement of our existing immigration laws kept the problem of illegal aliens to a reasonable level for a couple hundred years. I believe enforcement would do the same again. If not, the law of supply and demand can be invoked by punishments that make the chance of better wages financially unsustainable due to the fines incurred. Huge fines on employers would trump the law of S&D that makes aliens so attractive. No employers, the demand for illegal aliens disappears. Internment at zero wages -- the prospect of other wages becomes less attractive.

Help us and take action
I have tried writing emails, faxing and even calling. I visited both my senators' office (Chambliss and Isakson, who helped craft the sell out of our country). Apparently, they are not listening.

For those who say "We can't deport 12 million people" and "We can't build 2,000 miles of fence" - yes, we can but those who were entrusted to honor our wishes and protect us have sold out to business. If we cannot deport or build a fence, then how in heaven's name could we enforce all the provisions of this crazy legislation? And if we can deport and build, then why do we even need to consider this crazy legislation?

Band together - meet us in Washington DC for the March for America, which will be conducted in State Capitals all throughout our nation on June 16. Organize mass pray-ins for the return of our country and enlighten the blackened souls of our legislators and traitor in the White House.

So get going - lets all band together. That is where the illegals have their power - they are united and are willing to take to our streets and make demands.

Check this out and start making arrangements in your state: http://www.lframerica.com/march2.html

Consider joining the Minuteman group - your country needs you more than ever.

Out with both parties
Get every single democrat and republican out of office, else kiss the country good-bye.

I will never again vote republican and have never voted democrat anyway.

In fact I suggest all to leave both parties and elect anyone but a democrat or a republican.

I have joined the Constitution Party and its Military Veterans.


gently99: let me ask you this..
I'm not sure what area you live in but is immigrant population going up or down?

I'll tell you this, in the area I live in the Hispanic populations has quadrupled in the last
10 years to the point that they have taken over
certain areas in the vicinity. It appears to me
that entire villages of young people from below the southern border are getting the heck out of
their poor situations in their home countries and when they get here they are calling back and telling those left behind how to do it.

and although the hispanics represent the highest percentage of what i observe coming here, it's hardly just them. It's native Africans, Ethiopians, Indians, Arabs, Koreans and Chinese.
you name it, young people of ALL culures are coming here in DROVES like I have never seen before in my lifetime.

From what I have read, if this trend continues in the next 20 years WHITE AMERICANS WILL BE THE MINORITY RACE IN AMERICA.

you can talk about enforcement all you want, but
i believe that as long as the abject POVERTY that most of these people live in in their native lands exist, massive immigration legal or illegal gonna be a the status quo rather FOR YEAR TO COME.

Virginia Patriot
Yes and Alberto Gonazales is a member of La Raza.

Drew
I agree, but I think what we have going on is a setup. The 3 front-runners are every bit as socialist as the Democrats. We have a few good ones in the 2nd tier, but they're not getting much air time. I think the plan is to get Hillary elected, if you ask me.

And so it goes.
The number of unemployed in America is about 1/2 the number of illegals - depending on if you think the number is 12 million. If you think its' 26 or 30 million, then its even less. Throw them all out - then we have 100% employment and five or six million jobs available. Assuming the unemployed are all laborers. However, many are from other fields - and the liklihood they'd mow lawns, pick fruit, work as construction labor, wash clothes, clean floors and the like isn't very high. So, if we don't think these other types want these jobs, then we'd have even more labor type jobs available. Some illegals may work in meat packing plants - but most don't. Further, the generation following this one will have fewer workers because their parents had fewer kids.

This entire issue would be no issue if we had border security and a system to track those coming back and forth. Seasonal visas would work, and those working would then go home. In sum, they would not come here to live - merely to work.

2 years is silly. They should have the same visas we give everyone else - six months. Then they can go home and reapply. If they want to immigrate they should follow the rules.

50 years ago when I was a boy growing up on an Idaho farm, that's how it worked. We needed summer labor - and when the summer was over - everyone left. But don't pretend that we could've sent a bus into town to get labor - because hoeing weeds, cultivating sugar beets with a short handled hoe, picking potatoes, etc., is not something city folk like to do - and their weren't remotely enough people in the towns to do the work when the crops came in.

We obviously have surplus day labor work in this country - but we equally obviously don't have any obligation to give someone citizenship simply because they come over here to work as a day laborer.

How absurd it all is. We have a border we won't adequately police, which is an open invitation to people from poor countries to come on over. So, we close our eyes, let them come, and then argue as to their status. They have none. That's the point, is it not.

At the same time, we don't have to hate them for coming simply because they are desperately poor and we don't enforce our own rules, and then stay because we don't track the visas. That's our problem - not their's. Nor, do we have to get angry at them or employers because we have more laborer jobs than laborers.

We get what we deserve. Right now - we deserve this invasion from the South, because we refuse to police the borders and track the visas.

And as far as a fence, we can do it electronically as well as with bricks and mortar. Throw 2000 guard posts along the border, and do the rest electronically. Then station 100 or so choppers for rapid movement if anyone tries to come in.


Left Angle
The USA has been a goal of poverty-stricken foreigners for centuries. The problem has been created over the last 30 years when illegal aliens began their free ride. After WWII, the world was a shambles and millions wanted to get here. Law enforcement kept the problem manageable. The draft helped. People like you who sit and cry we can't do anything were in rather short supply back then. If people like you do what you are doing, and there are enough of you, your prediction will become self-fulfilling. If enforcing the existing laws do not stop the influx, increase the penalties. I am not ready to throw in the towel. In the final analysis what you think makes no difference until you act upon it. What actions are you contemplating? I ask again, do you want to see the USA submerged inb a sea of illegal aliens?

How to deport 20 million illegals?

.....I posed this question to my computer and here is the answer ...

.....PRINTOUT
...Step one ...deport one illegal family ...
...Step two ...repeat step one until there are no more illegals ...
.....END OF PRINT OUT .....COLOSSUS

Hound dog
I'm an SC'er, hon. Lindsay Graham is a pos. He lost my vote when, after sending him a lengthy letter over a year ago about how my mother died of tuberculosis she got from illegals, he wrote back saying the legislation he supports (amnesty) would be a PLEA BARGAIN with those who break our laws. Sadly, we aren't seeing anyone yet willing to step up and unseat that traitor. If I had the time and money and name recognition, I'd do it-in a heartbeat!

Oh and just to let you know, I was at the Republican debate in Columbia. Afterward, guess who crossed my path? Uh huh...Lindsay Graham. Tempted as I was to confront him, I'm glad now that I didn't. He was quickly being escorted to a private room by special agents. Apparently, he got a death threat. He is not well liked in SC anymore!

geez
and I thought my earlier post was bound to stir up sumthin'....
I'll swim back to my Swamp.

Sickening
This bill is sickening. Members of Congress who support this bill, and George Bush, are traitors. They took an oath to uphold the laws of this land - instead they are doing everything in their power to give the country away to people who have flagrantly broken this country's laws. I expect this behavior from Ted Kennedy but not George Bush. I've tried hard to support George Bush as he fights the war in Iraq but he has even messed that all up. Bush - you just lost my support. And as far as I'm concerned the Republican Party is a part of history. You don't get another chance from me. My sole aim in the next election will be to see the removal of incumbents who have supported this travesty in any way. Regardless of party affiliation.

Left Angle: Wrong equation
In your post you say: "massive immigration legal or illegal gonna be a the status quo rather FOR YEAR TO COME."

You make the usual liberal mistake of equating border jumping with LEGAL immigration. We control the flow of LEGAL immigrants with quotas, etc. Too many coming in? Cut it back.

But you're right about border jumping. If we don't control it, we're doomed. I've read that worldwide the are a BILLION people who would take their chances here as illegal aliens. We'd BETTER damn this up quick.


Freudian slip: "dam", not "damn"
Or maybe not.

How do we deport 12 million invaders?
I hear that question over and over and over again, ad nauseam, as if deportation is the only solution to the problem of the illegal invasion of this country by 12-36 million foreign criminals. There is a much simpler and less costly answer to the problem. One that will actually pay for itself!

All our government need do is arrest 1,000 CEO's of the largest companies using illegal labor and throw them in a "Sheriff Joe Arpaio" style tent city jail along the US/Mexico border in Arizona. The military base on the border should work just fine. Then have the perps working in chain-gangs picking up all the used TP, Kotex, trash, clothing, used condoms, et cetera, that the invaders left along the border as they invaded our country.

Have the Media cover the perp-walks, with the CEO's in orange jump-suits and shackles during their trials. Then take the Media down to the border to watch the CEO chain-gangs working in the desert cleaning up all the contaminated garbage left by the invaders. Before the CEO's get out of their tent city jail, they are required to forfeit all their assets derived from their illegal activity. Publish all the seizures and asset forfeitures on the nightly news.

Then do the same thing to the landlords of the illegal invaders. Then the money laundering bankers and Church clerics granting "sanctuary" to alien criminals with deportation orders. In six months time, the invaders won't be able to find a job or a place to live anywhere in the USA and they will go home on their own dime. It is called self-deportation, you don't have to round up anyone but the criminals already in our jails and they aren't all that hard to find.

Then militarize the border with Mexico to keep out the narco and other types of terrorists. Anyone crossing the border who doesn't go through a port of entry will be shot on sight, no questions asked, and their bodies thrown back across the border for the Mexicans to take care of. And, there you have it, the solution to the problem of illegal immigration -- no "round up" necessary.

SteveL
SteveL posted, "conservatives are proposing to fight illegal immigration the same failed way we fight drugs--playing "Whack-a-Mole . . ."


No, L. What most of us are proposing is to bring enough pressure on employers (sanctions, fines, jail time) in order to present an illegal with two options: stay here illegally and maybe go to prison or go back home.

Deportation and catch-&-release don't work; neither will a fence (unless we guard it 24/7).

The War on Drugs would end in a week if people stopped doing drugs. In a free country, we can't stop people from drug use or using alcohol or hooking.

The illegals are different, though. We can't simply open our borders to everyone, but we can make the reason they come here to diminish.

Arresting and jailing the boss who hires illegals is a start. If the boss's company goes broke because he's in prison, that's tough. If it's a large corporation, the loss of the boss will only result in a promotion opportunity for some V.P.

When other bosses see what happened, other bosses won't want to make the same business decision.

That will dry up job opportunities in America for ILLEGALS. It will open up job opportunities for LEGAL immigrants and Americans.

Comprehensive / Bipartisan / Compromise

I am bothered by the word “comprehensive”. It is used to encapsulate everything conservatives like me do not want included in any immigration bill and with one word it attempts to make a pig smell like a rose. It is intended to allow the advocates of the plan to dispell all criticisms as a single criticism and deflect the many poor sections of the proposal.

There is another word, “bipartisanship” that is intended to project something good when it is used to justify bad legislation as though it is always preferable to no legislation. It is as though our representatives feel a need to do something and stalemate is not something that they are willing to accept.

I object to “bipartisanship” when used to create legislation like the “comprehensive” immigration package now being discussed because it involves another word, “compromise” that traditionally, for republicans is not compromise at all but “capitulation”. I would love John McCain or Lindsey Graham to explain how this legislation is a compromise when it still moves in a direction that I do not want to go. I want to go in the other direction.

1. I want to seal the border AND enact criminal penalties (yes, jail) for anyone who knowingly hires or helps an illegal alien remain in this country or secure anything but emergency services.

2. I want to expunge the academic records of anyone found to be matriculating in this country illegally.

3. I want to deport anyone found to be in this country illegally. It may make no more than a small dent in the problem but isn’t this the current law? Just because there are many murders in this country does not mean we stop arresting and dealing with murderers. Why should this be any different?

4. I want to forbid the transfer of federal funds to any state or local government that offers itself as a sanctuary to hide from any federal law, especially immigration.

5. I want to remove the recognition from any church that provides sanctuary to an illegal alien, force the payment of back property taxes since the church’s inception and place the head of that church in jail.

6. I want to forbid any and all taxpayer services from illegal aliens with the single exception of emergency services.

7. I want to require emergency service providers to immediately be required to report the illegal alien to immigration services and I want that person deported.

8. If the deportation of an illegal alien would result in an unsupervised minor or the lack of a bread-winner to a family here with the alien, I want that family to go home with that illegal alien. We can always let the citizen back into this country when he/she achieves majority.

9. I want to freeze the bank accounts of anyone found to be here illegally and I want those funds confiscated and used to offset the costs we incur annually because of the invasion of illegal aliens into this country.

10. More importantly I want this influx of illegal aliens to be treated as an invasion. I want the military placed on the border and I want all physical and technical barriers to be used to stop them from crossing our border. If they are able to sneak across, I would personally not object to mine fields being laid as a further obstacle. I want our military to treat illegal aliens the same way I would treat an illegal burglar who attempted to enter my house. I want them to shoot at them.

Now, there is my best scenario. If our representatives wish to “compromise” by giving me only half of what I want without my having to give up anything, then I am willing to accept that “compromise” as long as the compromise includes sealing the border. This can be bipartisan. This idea can even be called "comprehensive". But as my note witnesses, my definitions of these words are totally different than what is moving to the floor of the Senate.


Supply and Demand
If we enforce laws against employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants and sentence these folks to time in jail, the demand for illegal immigrant labor will decline. As the demand declines, so will the supply. Most of those here illegally will return home as their advantage to be here will have been eliminated.

This will not effect the overall labor demand, only the demand for cheap labor that comes here illegally. Labor rates will rise and/or we truly may find there are jobs that "Americans won't do." We have no way of knowing until those laws of supply and demand have their affect. If there is no demand for fruit or vegetables at the price that consumers would have to pay to enable the grower to hire people to pick the crops, then yes, maybe we will have to develop a guest worker program. But, I am not ready to do this until we have completed step one, sealing the border and providing encouragement for those here illegally to go home through the loss of their labor advantage.

La Raza
La Raza means "the race" and the race they are talking about is Mexican/Indian. La Raza is nothing more then the political arm of the mexican mafia. Our politicians have sold out to the mexican mafia, American is on its way to becoming another narco-state thanks to our legislative and executive branch of government.

Thank you
To Toro Thank you for your service also. You weren't alone, none of you who served when many of the electeds we now have the misfortune to
rule us, were demonstrating against you. My husband is a Navy vet, '58-64 and we will never
forget how you were treated. We were praying for you all, and weren't silent about your mistreatment. Your post got me a bit teary eyed,
I'm the daughter and granddaughter of English immigrants but they had to learn the language too since they spoke a dialect you wouldn't recognize as English. My grandfather served in the British Army in WW1, it took over 10 years for him to bring his family over, sent his eldest dau. to be raised by a cousin because of
the war interruption. It took another 8 for him to become naturalized, and before he ever got a visa he had to have confirmation that he had a job in the mill, a place to live (mill housing) and a sponsor, his cousin. He then sent 2 of his sons to war in WW2. My Dad's family were immigrants from England also, but came as children.
Your story is the thread that weaves the American fabric and Bush and Company are feeding it to the moths.
There aren't any words that can express my deep contempt for this government, I pray they will all be ripped out by the roots and
AMERICAN Patriots take their place.
Thank you also Levi.
dittos Loribee
Dr. N I am an Evangelical and I have been distrustful of Bush for years, and I no longer
trust him for anything. If this NAU is true and it seems to be, then he deserves impeachment and
I will support it, in fact I'm at the point where
I'd support it anyway. He should be impeached just because of the Border Agents kangaroo trial, it's been said he demands total loyalty from his stooges and Sutton is a good buddy of his.

Bush Derangement Syndrome
AKA BDS. We The People can no longer sit idle while our executive & legislative branches of government give away our country. Clear your calendars on June 14, 15, 16. We must March on Washington DC and let our voices be heard. http://www.lframerica.com

Actually,
what this is about is treason. Bush, and every politician who is pushing this amnesty should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed.


There is cursing and gnashing of teeth in the Senate now. Have you seen the pictures of Kennedy raving in frustration because they couldn't sneak this thing through? What is funny to me is that they are so out of touch with reality that they actually believed that this would work for them.


These people are so arrogant, and apparently have so much invested in this, that they did not expect this level of outrage. That creep Graham was booed in South Carolina. He stated that the "bigots should be left behind". They should have dragged him off of that stage, tarred and feathered him, and rode him out of town on a rail.


I have been calling these so called lawmakers and expressing my perception of what they are doing. I have refrained from profanity, but not from absolute frankness. Surprisingly, some of the staff members I spoke with do not seem to resent my comments. I wonder if they feel the same way I do.


No matter how this turns out, every politician who participated in this is going to pay a price. They may be looking for work.


Skip
You are right. The politicians who have supported this insulting fraud must pay. vote the rascals out. You have doubtless noted that most candidates abstained on the cloture vote. Nail those weasels too. All of them.

Be Smart
Friends, I know that we are all terrible upset and conflicted right now. But I want you guys to think about something with me for a second okay. Here goes, we were all including myself, very angry last November. Most of us stayed home, I did not because I know that stratagy does not work. We were successful in riding the Congress of DeWine and Lincoln Chaffe and a few other RINOs. But we guess what, we throw out Jim Talent, Rick Sandtorum, and Allen from Virginia, certainly not RINOs. McCain and Graham did not go home and they are still making trouble with others liek Sessions and Hutchison and others fight despartly to stop this.

Stay home folks is not the way and I am very sorry but it is time to grow up and live here in the real world, there will never be a third party. Period the Democrats and Republicans won't allow it. And we can not change that. What we can do is retake our party, the Republicans. Bush has messed things up, fine. I agree totally. But don't just be childish and walk away. If we do, we do what the media wants and we are no better than the Dems. They are creating most of our problems today. At least the RINOs agree occationally with us. But I digress.

We needs to happen is that we need to withhold our money from the GOP till they change their ways and then go out and support real conservatives against the RINOs in the primaries. I believe that very soon Fred Thompson who is waging the smartest campign ever, will jump in. However, if we have to take Rommney, or God in heaven no, Rudy we had better hold our noses and damn well go vote. I will hold the base accountable if Hillary Clinton becomes president since we stayed home.

You all say you love America and would die for her, I believe you, I would too. All of you had better love her enough to keep Clinton out the White House because friends the USA can not survive the Clinton presidency. It is that simple. At least Rudy or Rommney would fight the war and possible listen to us. With her, we can kiss you know what good bye. The Dems and the media are counting on us to stay home. It is up to us to save America so lets get it together GOP.

Nee
You zeroed in on some good truths. Aside, but not excluding those in our military today, most of us remember family members who served in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps. They gave their time and efforts to preserve our freedom.

There's got to be something seriously wrong with any American who advocates the ruination of our country. That they're perfectly willing to pass on their self-centered, political mistakes to children and grandchildren, etc. is nothing short of despicable.

We don't want these traitorous bums representing us!

What has Ted Kennedy, for example, ever done to deserve the nation's admiration? Obviously the majority of Massachusetts voters have a different view.

Time to Wake Up, America
Let me get this straight. We have illegal invaders marching in our streets under foreign flags demanding to be made citizens. And the American people who overwelmingly oppose this are told that we must do this and we better damn well like it.
Why?
Because big business wants cheap labor.
Because the Democrats want 12-20 million ignorant, illiterate new voters.
Because the Republicans are, for the most part, a bunch of pathetic, gutless cowards.
Because the liberal news media sympathize with these invaders and basically despise this country.
and
Because our President has seemingly taken leave of his senses.
Perhaps its time the American people just take their country back.

To: GPC007
I am exercising my second ammend right to own a gun tomorrow. I have always had a gun owners permit, but never used it before to purchase a gun. I think its time to reconsider that.

The founding fathers knew that if the British had sucessfully seized the amories at Lexinton and Concord, the Revolution would have never happened. There is nothing else that will force elected officials to obey the will of the electorate than thousands of guns pointed to their heads to make them comply.

If there is a coming revolution, I want to have a say in who comes into my home and robs me of a job, my social security benefits, and takes my home from me because I can't afford to pay the real-estate taxes that will be used to pay for the illegal immigrants.

Close the borders in less than 24 hours.
We could close our souther border in less than 24 hours by issuing a shoot to kill order for anyone approaching them outside of an approved border entry point. With sniper rifles every 2000 yards about one every 2/3rd mile, you could easily guard the entire 2000 mile border with 3000 troops. With three 8 hour shifts, and one extra shift to cover leave of absences, 12,000 reservists is all we would need.

We would not even have to shoot anyone for real. A few well placed warning shots, is a universal language to about face and march in the other direaction. If we aimed for and killing just a few of the coyotes leading the packs in, the first night would send a loud and clear message that the infiltration of unwanted illegals is stopping NOW! America has the right to defend its borders from invasion, and we can do it cheaply and instantly if we only had the will.

Drew
Using Hillary as the boogeyman won't work this time. We heard the same things with Gore and Kerry. What did that get us? Eight years of a moronic, treasonous DICTATOR! Sorry, but if the Republican Party nominates another GLOBALIST TRAITOR to run in '08, I won't "hold my nose" and vote for the him.

The Republican Party has become TREASONOUS by pushing forward anti-American candidates with the hope that we will be too afraid of the other guy. Have we all become the Party of Cowards? Well, I am done playing that game and so are millions of other Americans!

If the Republican Party doesn't wish to join the Whig Party on the ash-heap of history, it had better stop listening to the Corporate fascist welfare queens and had better start listening to We the People!

If the "American Genocide Act of 2007" passes out of the Senate because the Republican Party Senators refused to filibuster it to death, I will NEVER vote for a TREASONOUS Republican Party member again so long as I live! The Republican Party will have declaired WAR on We the People and only some sick and sorry spouse would take that from their abuser and ask for more!

Table this turkey!
Bush refuses to enforce the laws he is sworn to uphold. We'd better get a Mexican President to replace him? No, but we'd better hobble his gait.
The Senate and House should embargo any action on this mis-named Immigration Reform Bill until after noon on January 20th, 2009. If Bush does as he should in the meantime, enforce the Duncan Hunter Double Security Fence Law and all other Immigration laws on the books; the new Congress and President will have a chance to pass much less costly and more reasonable "reform".

By the way, Duncan Hunter's Fence between San Diego and Tijuana was well-researched and planned before it was built. Here's my understanding of what it is and how it works: A double fence runs roughly East and West. Between each fence is a 'road' patrolled 24/7.
That short portion of fence reduced smuggling and crime in the San Diego area by a huge percentage. It is not a Berlin Wall, in fact it has humanitarian aspects. Duncan Hunter's official website is easily available and you can check out the Security Fence details with the campaign. Hunter has a small staff and a huge hill to climb, as Charley Reese might say. But he is the most qualified candidate for President since Ronald Reagan. He is one who explains himself, situations, and solutions in a knowledgeable, nuanced fashion. Sound bytes and cute remarks are not his forte'. He has fought "Immigration Reform" his whole career. He opposed the Simpleton-Mazzoli fraud and has consistently done everything he could to right our Illegal Alien problem. He and Chuck Yaeger are in South Carolina even now, I think. Hunter will be in Florida over the weekend, too.

By the way, it looks like Lindsay Graham has come out of the closet as the ninny legislator he really is.

Duncan Hunter is who he is, comfortable in his own skin and highly effective. He's not Ronald Reagan; but he's the person we need for President in these troubled times. Duncan Hunter 2008.

Minutemen and Senator Graham
The Minutemen have some folks in D.C., going to each Senator's office about this AMNESTY bill. Listen to this 1 minute audio of what they had to say after visiting Senator Graham's office.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/cloture/SC_Graham.mp3

They have some other interesting things in this I would like you to hear.

Take the Party Back
Listen all, I am sorry that I have come off a bit strong here but like all of you I love America and I am frustrated. We are all tired of being ignored and we want to see some changes. I know that most of you are mad at the Republican party, I am too. But just listen to me for a sec. I think it was great that conservatives stayed home in Ohio and RI and sent DeWine and Chaffee home. But I think it was dump to send home Talent, Allen, and Santorum. Conservatices in Missouri, Viginia, and Pennsylvania did not have to do that.

There is no third party to the resuce and we do not need one. We have a hand full of RINOs that are working with Democrats and creating problems for us. The party is off course too because of George Bush. But we the people and the conservative base have a lot of power. We have the ballot box and we have money. We need to take this party back. Send home RINOs in the primaries and withold money from the RNC to get our point across.

There will, unfortunately, always be some RINOs and moderates in the party. Can't be helped. However, we can keep them to a minority and our leaders need to be strong enough to scare them back into line if they get cocky. McCain would have been toast if Reagan was in the White House.

Now I don't want to vote for RINOs either and I am not trying to use Hillary as a scare tactic but the Democrats are dangerous. If we stay home, this is what we get: abortion on demand, 50 million illegal aliens, the loose of a national culture, 80% income tax, a healthcare system run the government no better than the post office, collapsed social securty, destructive welfare, gay marriage, God ran out of every public forum, $5 to $6 per gallon gasoline, and the list goes on and on. I will not live in the United Socialist States of America and I will do whatever it takes to keep the Dems out of power. They sure as hell won't listen to the people, they laugh at us on a daily basis. They have even gone so far now as to ignor our Constitution, the law of the land. They simply can not be entrusted with the nation.

No party will ever be perfect, I understand that. And I don't like it when, every once and a great while, we have to put up with a RINO. The fight to take back the party will not be easy nor will it be quick. But we must stay strong and united as a people. Win things one primary, one election at a time. Defeat RINOs without giving the Dems victory. This is still our party and I will not abandon Senators like Jeff Sessions and Congressmen like Tom Tancrato. We must take the party back and we can do it, we are the people, anything is possible. Don't let a few ruin us. I know that I will fight every night and day until we have retaken the Republican party and we must start today.

the flash
What the hell is a "gun owners permit"? Why would you need one to buy a gun?

It's Bad but not Unfixable
I do agree that the bill the way it looks now is amnesty, or at the very least, that it will lead to amnesty. But I do think this bill can be fixed. The criticism of the current Immigration Bill is not realistic in that it drives toward one solution: mass deportation.

Don't get me wrong: I believe all illegal aliens are just that--illegal. As a matter of principle, all of them should be arrested and deported without exception. But with 12 million plus of them around, our slow bureaucratic system simply doesn't have the manpower to do that. It's just not going to happen.

But that means the problem remains: a host of illegals causing trouble, either directly (because they are criminals) or indirectly (basically good people who are being squeezed by society because they are in legal limbo). This needs to be fixed.

One thing that ought to be changed, IMHO, is the law that gives citizenship to children born to illegals in the US. Only children with at least one citizen parent should receive automatic citizenship. All other immigrants should be required to go through the regular naturalization process.

As for the rest, we should focus on enforcement of existing laws first. Once that is taken care of, I'm not in principle against making a loophole for hardworking people who are currently here illegal. Provided two criteria are met: (1) they admit they broke the law and pay for it (a much higher fine than now proposed), and they pay it themselves--and not have their employer do it for them; and (2) such a legalization would not be easier than the normal process. In other words, any "loophole" must be a real burden to discourage those who want a quick way in. No, it should be a real burden even for the illegals, to the extent that it would be easier for them to leave the country and apply for a legal visa from their home countries.

I believe that such an approach would really discourage illegals (because it provides no quick way in) but it would provide a solution for those illegals who have been here so long that they have set roots in the US and would rather remain illegal for the rest of their lives than go back home.
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