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Tuesday, January 09, 2007
Cal  Thomas :: Townhall.com Columnist
House Democrats and ethics reform
by Cal Thomas
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When one is "converted," people look for changes in behavior that testify to a transformation of heart and mind.

The new House Democratic majority has announced its "conversion" on matters of institutional and individual ethics. Now comes the watching and waiting to measure the depth of their sincerity. Initial signs leave room for cautious optimism, or pessimism, depending on one's faith, in people who have created the problem to provide the solution. Liken it to how much trust one might place in an embezzler who is put in charge of bank security, or a serial liar who is asked to devise an honor code.

House Democrats touted their ethics reform package, which, among other things, requires lawmakers to attach their names to the "earmarks," also known as "pork," they slip into spending and tax measures. In addition, members would be required to reveal if they have any personal interest in the measure.

Suspicion as to whether Democrats, who have long engaged in bipartisan pork barrel spending with Republicans, are serious about going on the wasteful spending wagon were quickly raised when Charles Rangel (D-NY), the new chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, said, "You have to assume that everything we have done is subject to a revisit. These things are not locked in cement."

The earmark legislation is also tied to the Democrats' proposed "pay as you go" rule that would keep the House from adding to the deficit with new tax cuts or entitlement spending without offsetting them with spending cuts or tax increases. Republicans see that as stealth tax hikes.

The New York Times reported that the earmark measure "could prevent the kind of corruption that led to several big scandals in recent years, including former Representative Randy Cunningham's sale of earmarks to government contractors for cash, gifts and campaign contributions." Not exactly.

According to Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW), which has published a "Guide to Earmark Reform," "Projects such as digitization of Department of Defense manuals, which helped land former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham in jail, would not require sponsor identification because the funds were directed to DOD, not a specific company. In that situation, the company that eventually received funding for the project had bribed Cunningham."

This is not the only potential loophole in the ethics rules change. "The ultimate goal of earmark reform," says CAGW, "should be the elimination of all pork-barrel projects from the federal budget." That is not likely to happen, so CAGW proposes the ultimate in transparency and accountability in order to reduce the number and overall cost of such projects.

The new House rule defines a congressional earmark as a "provision or report language included primarily at the request of a Member, Delegate, Resident Commissioner, or Senator providing, authorizing or recommending a specific amount of discretionary budget authority, credit authority, or other spending authority for a contract, loan guarantee, grant, loan authority or other expenditure with or to an entity, or targeted to a specific State, locality or Congressional district, other than through a statutory or administrative formula driven or competitive award process."

Clear now?

CAGW says the House definition of an earmark falls short in two ways. In addition to the one mentioned above regarding the Pentagon and Randy Cunningham, "It omits projects earmarked for more than one state and those designated for federal agencies. For example, the fiscal 2006 Agriculture Appropriations Bill includes $6,435,000 for wood utilization research in Alaska, Idaho, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Washington and West Virginia. The House rules would not require the identification of a sponsor of this earmark."

Republicans will have little credibility advocating that these or tougher rules be placed in cement. They have been at the spending trough as much as Democrats. Neither will President Bush have much influence calling, as he has, for spending reforms, since he has refused to veto a single spending measure.

The Senate this week considers revising its ethics rules. Don't look for the "king of pork," Robert Byrd (D-WV.) to take the anti-pork pledge. That would be like asking Britney Spears to "convert" to responsible behavior. Any real reform will be up to "we the people." A good beginning can be found in the CAGW guide.

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About The Author
Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the book, "Common Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying America".
 
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If "Ethics Reform" is as effective as
Campaign Finance Reform, we are all in trouble.

Democratic Party/Ethic Reform? Now there's an oxymoron. And anyone who buys what the Lefties are selling IS a moron.

Mountain Rose
You took the words right out of my mouth! Talk about the Fox guarding the Hen House!

But it will be a success...
because the MSM will continuously tout it as a success, downplay or ignore totally any violations by the Democrats, and flog any Republican that may even have a hint of it. The politics of the Big Lie. If you repeat it often and loud, it becomes the truth.

Goshawk
It takes two foxes. One guarding the hen house
and one inside eating the chickens.

Radlad
Ya beat me to it.

Thanks to Red Nancy and her cabal of idiots for the best laugh of the day.

DRAIN THAT SWAMP!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Wish in one hand and crap in the other
And see which one fills up first. Yes America wishes for ethics reform, but it isn't going to happen until pigs learn to whistle and elephants fly.

When are many Americans going to stop being so pathetically naive? The same attitude prevails with terrorists, "If we just hug those big old mean terrorists a little harder they'll see that we're not trying to hurt them."

This fanciful dream world that many Americans are living in doesn't always have a happy ending like it does in Walt Disney movies. Dancing and singing Penguins isn't going to do jack squat, wake up you nabobs before Congress takes what little money that they are allowing to keep.
America will get ethics reform when Nancy Pelosi stops using illegal immigrants as cheap labor in her hotel chain that she owns.

Use Boortz's Idea
Neal Boortz talked yesterday about part of his upcoming book, saying there was a chapter about what he'd do if he became President. One of his ideas would be to have the 10th Amendment Committee go to work for a couple of years. This committee would be made up of some non-politicians (like CAGW personnel), some state legislators, and a few fed types. Their mandate would be to go over the fed budget and federal laws on the books and come up with a comprehensive list of all the crrrrrap that's unConstitutional according to the 10th Amendment. All that stuff would be immediately eliminated from the fed gov't.

conservativeman
Well, to answer your question, it'll be when it's too late. As long as shows like American Idol continue to spoon-feed pablum to the sheeple, they won't give a hoot.

BTW, Red Nancy Pelosiovich owns a winery that employs illegals. Check my blog (click on my handle) for the full gouge on the President of teh Progressive Caucus' doings.

The meaning of IS
To my dying day, I think politics was summed up by a sitting President who quibbled over the meaning of "is". That is only a two-letter word. Think of all the longer words and carefully phrased expressions and what you get is a lot of hot air and photo ops. In addition to that, we have "high courts" that re-define things on a regular basis, so it is impossible to pin down anything as to what it means -- other than another method of deceiving us non-politcian types

I do not trust ANY politician to change things if that politician will be hurt personally. I do not trust any political body to change things that will diminish its power -- only the power of "the other party".

We, the People have been "on the take" since at least the "Income Tax Amendment" beceme entrenched with all its exemptions and exceptions and allowances and then along came "The Social Security Act" and all the things it has spawned.

I mean, as long as WE accept bribes for our votes at the polls, I wonder just why we get upset when the politicians who bribed US then accept bribes for their votes on legislation and spending.

WE are supposed to be guarding the hen house and yet we accept fried chicken offered up by the chicken thieves but complain because someone we don't like is getting some fried chicken, too.

I KNOW that no "governemnt" can put something on my plate that it did not take from someone else. So, if we choose to elect chicken thieves, our own chickens may end up stolen and on someone else's plate.

Well Cal,
Initial signs leave room for cautious optimism, or pessimism, depending on one's faith, in people who have created the problem to provide the solution. Liken it to how much trust one might place in an embezzler who is put in charge of bank security, or a serial liar who is asked to devise an honor code.
====================
That is why the country voted the republicans out of power, so the ones that brought us the unbridled corruption can be put in check- that is, the republican controlled congress.

But, go ahead Cal, lets here it- how did the democrats make the republicans so corrupt?
How did the democrats make the republicans commit so much fraud, waste, and abuse?

I know- Clinton did it. Is that right, Cal?



Lydia, haven't we been through this?
Lydia writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 9:27 AM
Baby killers want ethics reform?
REEEEEEEEEALLY????????????????????????????

Bizarro.
=======================
The republican rejected their opportunity to fix the abortion problems- they ignored it when they had full power and control of the government. The Republican baby killers were the unethical in all counts while in charge.

Now someone else gets a turn.

Ben
No, libs were corrupt long ago. Two corrupt scum bags like Huey Long and another by the name of Congritter Andrew May (D-Pa) spring to mind. This turd made money by war profiteering and fraud and was sentenced to prison. President Truman PARDONED him after seven months time served! Simply brutal.

Kudos to Al Gore for inventing the Internet. What an awesome tool for research.

Are you listening to yourselves?


vic writes:
GunnyG writes:
Lydia writes:
Radlad writes:
pineknot writes:
Goshawk writes:
Mountain Rose writes:
conservativeman writes:

Really, are ya‘ll stupid, ignorant, or just foolish?
Every word that was written by any of the above names- the words apply to the last 12 years of Republican control of the Congress.

So, ya’ll take it out on the ones that were not in charge. Ya’ll childishly call the dems names, and accuse them of the actions of the republicans over the last 12 years- before the dems even do anything?

Can any of you acknowledge that the republicans just ruled over the most corrupt, immoral, and dishonest period of our government?

What fools are ya’ll?

Get back to the future man
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 12:09 PM
Ben
No, libs were corrupt long ago. Two corrupt scum bags like Huey Long and another by the name of Congritter Andrew May (D-Pa) spring to mind. This turd made money by war profiteering and fraud and was sentenced to prison. President Truman PARDONED him after seven months time served! Simply brutal.

Kudos to Al Gore for inventing the Internet. What an awesome tool for research.

=========================
Huey has been dead a long time.




I dont' think you make sense.
Lydia writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 12:15 PM
BEN
The republican party has been commandeered by members sympathetic to the baby killer party. I don't know how many times I will have to tell you this, but I'm sure it will be a LOT.

It reminds me that Lincoln couldn't get congress to do the right thing either, so he had to go kill the low-lifes undermining the effort from below (the citizens). I trust it will not come to that because we have the baby killer fanatics on the run.

Also, the grass roots are becoming transformed as science and logic exerts unrelenting enlightenment on the minds of our young people who begin to clearly see the hypocrisy of the ruthless baby killer mentality and reject it.

Cheers!

Neo-conservatives
The neo-conservative movement and ideology are the only things that have taken over the Republican Party.

They destroyed conservatism and replaced it with moralist, corruption, and lies.

Lydia - almost correct
Lydia writes:

[It reminds me that Lincoln couldn't get congress to do the right thing either, so he had to go kill the low-lifes undermining the effort from below (the citizens). I trust it will not come to that because we have the baby killer fanatics on the run.]

You are close to correct here. Lincoln despised slavery from the first time he saw it. He understood that the abolitionist movement was morally right, but to force there wants entirely would have devastating effects on the south. To end slavery suddenly would send economic shock waves throughout our country and while Lincoln wanted to end slavery he had a responsibility to the entire country- not just one faction of it. Lincoln wanted to contain slavery and reduce it gradually over a period of time. This would reduce the economic crises to manageable proportions while “moving the country towards the moral direction.”

We should learn from Lincoln when addressing the abortion issue. If the country would have listened then, things may have been different. If we listen now, we could actually start to work on this issue rather than fight about it.

Detroyers of Republican party are
RINOs - libs masquerading as conservatives (Chafee, McCain, Owens, etc).

Picture Cal with a Lantern
I have long admired Cal Thomas, but to expect ETHICS from that bunch is just too much like spitting in the wind.
In my mind's eye, I picture poor old Cal doomed to forever wandering the streets of Washington D of C with a lantern looking for an honest man. Sounds familier somehow.

Cal, Cal, Cal there ain't none there.

only dems can be corupt
if a corupt politician is found in the republican side he is punished and ousted,but if your a dem then its time for promotion and a standing ovation ,even when they find marked bills totaling 90gs in your freezer, pelosi says this is going to be the most ethical congress in history, is she blind or still in a star struck fantasy world thinking she has won the oscar on the congressional podium.

my 2 cents
Plus ce change, plus la meme

You lot are beyond ridiculous
Even blaming liberals for the corruption, sleaze and greed that has engulfed the Republican Party. So blinkered, so self righteous, that you can't see what's in front of your faces. Ben is right, even if he does sound like someone out of the Dukes of Hazard.

Ben
My point being that liberals have been corrupt since the beginning.

Ever heard of the Copperheads? Dhimmicrats.

BTW, I see where Red Nancy Pelosiovich got the Cesar Chavez Award in 2003 from the United Farm Workers but that she employs ILLEGAL ALIENS!

Hmm. I smell something nasty.

Check my blog. I ALSO include a link on the WSFO reporter WHO WENT UNDERCOVER for the story.

BTW, Red Nancy has stood in the way of EVERY attempt to tighten up the border. I guess paying for cheap labor is better than hiring real Americans.

To Ben
You have obviously not been reading all the posts. Yes the Neocons have taken over and in a lot of cases don great evil. But what are the Neocons? They are liberal Democrats who did not like the anti-military policy of the Democratic party that has been prevalent since the 1970's. They became liberal Republicans. And you say that Republicans controlled congress. If that were true there would be no Bush appointees awaiting confirmation, the tax cuts would be permanent, and SS would now be at least partially privatized. Really, are you stupid, ignorant, or just foolish? Seriously, we cn do without the flame wars.

gunner writes:
gunner writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 12:47 PM
only dems can be corupt
if a corupt politician is found in the republican side he is punished and ousted,but if your a dem then its time for promotion and a standing ovation ,even when they find marked bills totaling 90gs in your freezer, pelosi says this is going to be the most ethical congress in history, is she blind or still in a star struck fantasy world thinking she has won the oscar on the congressional podium.
===================
You have this so backwards. The dem leadership removed Jefferson when they learned his was under investigation- the governor of Louisiana one line item vetoed all monies budgeted for any organization associated with Jefferson.

What did the republicans do when Tom Delay was under investigation? They changed the ethic rules so he would not have to stand down from his position. The Foley scandal was covered up for years- with a final report of the recent investigation, performed by the ousted republicans, saying, “um, yea, this is messed up, but not one to blame- to one is accountable.”

You can have your own opinion- even if the facts don’t support them.

Go read all the above flame wars
Seriously, we cn do without the flame wars.

========================
I asked a question, left the reply up to each of the posters.

But lets see where the flame comes from, shall we?
======================
Mountain Rose writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 12:50 AM

Democratic Party/Ethic Reform? Now there's an oxymoron. And anyone who buys what the Lefties are selling IS a moron.
-----------------------
Radlad writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 6:22 AM
dimocraps ethics? one word repeated.....
.........HA! HA ! HA! HA! this may take awhile..............
--------------------------------
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 9:23 AM
Radlad
Ya beat me to it.

Thanks to Red Nancy and her cabal of idiots for the best laugh of the day.

DRAIN THAT SWAMP!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
------------------------
Lydia writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 9:27 AM
Baby killers want ethics reform?
REEEEEEEEEALLY????????????????????????????

Bizarro.
-------------------------
conservativeman writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 9:40 AM

When are many Americans going to stop being so pathetically naive? The same attitude prevails with terrorists, "If we just hug those big old mean terrorists a little harder they'll see that we're not trying to hurt them."

America will get ethics reform when Nancy Pelosi stops using illegal immigrants as cheap labor in her hotel chain that she owns.

MY NOTE: If this is true of Nancy- the republicans would be screaming it from the rooftops- since they are not- I find it really hard to believe.
----------------------------------
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 10:20 AM

BTW, Red Nancy Pelosiovich owns a winery that employs illegals. Check my blog (click on my handle) for the full gouge on the President of teh Progressive Caucus' doings.

NOTE: more unfounded attacks-
----------------------------

If you want to make a standard- apply to all equally.


Ben
Let me be the first to restate my premise.

I come here to hold discourse with my fellow CONSERVATIVES NOT liberals. If I wanted to hear moonbats screeching, ala the Screaming Monkey Syndrome, I'd go to DU/DailyKoS/Huff. This is a CONSERVATIVE site and why TH doesn't ban you loons like DU bans conservative posters is beyond me.

That said, when a liberal posts here, I consider them free game. Sans the "f" bombs (I was exiled to Siberia for that) I verbally abuse liberals. Your ideology sucks, your stances suck, your leaders suck, and every time a liberal has a thought, they weaken America. You're the Fifth Column and stink worse than a Frenchman in August.

Now, did I miss anything?

Vic
Vic writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 12:55 PM
To Ben
You have obviously not been reading all the posts. Yes the Neocons have taken over and in a lot of cases don great evil. But what are the Neocons? They are liberal Democrats who did not like the anti-military policy of the Democratic party that has been prevalent since the 1970's. They became liberal Republicans. And you say that Republicans controlled congress. If that were true there would be no Bush appointees awaiting confirmation, the tax cuts would be permanent, and SS would now be at least partially privatized. Really, are you stupid, ignorant, or just foolish? Seriously, we cn do without the flame wars.
===========================
Again, I am going to say we have to get back to the future. I know the history of the neo's. I put a great link showing the history on the site a few weeks back- written by the Christian Monitor.
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/index.html


But where are they now? That is the main question. And they are in power now- through the Bush admin. They are the power structure behind the failed policy in Iraq. They are the power structure behind all the moral attacks on anyone that doesn't believe exactly like them.

They use insidious methods- reference the RNC campaign adds against Max Cleland.
Reference the label of traitor to anyone who objected to this war or dared to disagree with this admin.

Hell, just listen to President Ford.

The neoconservative movement attacks our system of government- the Constitution- if it stands in their way. Reference the Terri Schiavo case. Reference the concept of unitary executive.

It doesn’t matter that once upon a time they were democrats. What matters is that they are wrong in their ideology, their methods, and their tactics.



Gee, you guys don't trust Reed & Pelosi?
Who do you trust in our Government?

I heard there is a new proposal for our Congress to hold closed door sessions with no voting record kept.
We are to have a secret Government now?
So how will we know who to vote for or against.

Some cities in the East are already using TV cameras and microphones to listen in on private conversations just like they have in England.

Sometimes I think they have some kind of device in my house.
How else would they know to have the recorded message call me to try and get me to subscribe to a newspaper while I am in the shower with soap in my eyes?
They have to have some way to know that.

You are a coward- GunnyG
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 1:23 PM
Ben
Let me be the first to restate my premise.

I come here to hold discourse with my fellow CONSERVATIVES NOT liberals. If I wanted to hear moonbats screeching, ala the Screaming Monkey Syndrome, I'd go to DU/DailyKoS/Huff. This is a CONSERVATIVE site and why TH doesn't ban you loons like DU bans conservative posters is beyond me.

That said, when a liberal posts here, I consider them free game. Sans the "f" bombs (I was exiled to Siberia for that) I verbally abuse liberals. Your ideology sucks, your stances suck, your leaders suck, and every time a liberal has a thought, they weaken America. You're the Fifth Column and stink worse than a Frenchman in August.

Now, did I miss anything?
=========================
Just like you ran the other day when your intellectual inferiority was exposed, you are a coward now.
Any one can sing to the choir, but you- you need to coddle with them. To support your ignorant views. You scream names wonderfully, but your ideas are stupid in every since and I suspect that is why you cower here. Because they can’t stand the test of reasonableness, practicality, or in any sense- constitutionally.

I’ll take my ten years in the service to what ever you have- boy.
What have you done for your country today?

You are simply a coward.

Oh come off it Gunny
You welcomed me back with open arms when I said happy christmas on your blog. You're all tough exterior but underneath I reckon you're a right softie...

Ben
Squirting tears or what?

Just laying it out plain and simple so that you could understand it.

When did this event happen? You expose my intellectual inferiority? Yeah, not on your best day little man.

But then again, you're protected since the Corps taught me NEVER to fire an unarmed person and in a battle of wits, believe me, YOU ARE UNARMED!

Have a nice day.



To Ben
Point by Point:

Flames: Almost all of the flames I have seen here in the postings have general flames against a political party or a polititian, not personally against a poster.

The other points:

1. Again, I am going to say we have to get back to the future. I know the history of the neo's. I put a great link showing the history on the site a few weeks back- written by the Christian Monitor.

I have only recently been reading comments on this site and posting replies so I haven't seen anything going back past a few days.

2. But where are they now? That is the main question. And they are in power now- through the Bush admin. They are the power structure behind the failed policy in Iraq. They are the power structure behind all the moral attacks on anyone that doesn't believe exactly like them.

The point I was making is that they are liberal Democrats except on military and foreign policy. I actually agree with most of the military decisions.

3. They use insidious methods- reference the RNC campaign adds against Max Cleland.

I haven't seen anything that was said about Max Cleland that wasn't true. It may have been considered cruel, but as a politician you can expect that. And by the way, when I went into the Navy in 1970 it was from Georgia so I have no great animosity to Max Cleland other than my normal scorn for liberals; Democrat or Republican. Nothing was said about Max Cleland that was said about G. W. Bush.

4. Reference the label of traitor to anyone who bjected to this war or dared to disagree with this admin.

I have never, repeat that never, heard any member of the current adminstration call anyone who disagreed with their policy a traitor. Can you point to an actual instance of this??? As a matter of fact, I haven't heard them call anyone a traitor, including the traitors at the New York Times who print classified information that harms the war effort.

5. Hell, just listen to President Ford.

The neoconservative movement attacks our system of government- the Constitution- if it stands in their way. Reference the Terri Schiavo case. Reference the concept of unitary executive.

I have a hard time listening to and responding to president Ford. He is dead.

6. It doesn’t matter that once upon a time they were democrats. What matters is that they are wrong in their ideology, their methods, and their tactics.

Again, you missed the point. They are liberals. That is the position of most of the posters here.

GunnyG
While I find it in our past discussions- try this one on for size- it fits perfectly.
-----------
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=a_comedians_sigh,_the_4th_commandment,_and_a_better_new_year&ns=MichaelMedved&dt=12/28/2006&page=full&comments=true#3d516680-458f-43b0-a070-961d01c405de
--------------

Amadei writes: Thursday, December, 28, 2006 10:15 AM
GunnyG
What does your mother feed you for breakfast?
Bullets. You sound like a hateful, condescending right wing blow hard to me. All you do is write nasty comments about people who don't believe like you. And, Lydia, the big bible thumper jumps on the bandwagon. That sure show christian thinking. Is that what your bible fiction teaches you to make fun of people that don't agree with you?

You don't practice christian beliefs. You just throw them out to look holy. You are just a charade but easy to see your heart is black with hatred.

GunnyG
Ben writes: Wednesday, December, 27, 2006 3:30 PM
Gunny
GunnyG writes: Wednesday, December, 27, 2006 3:16 PM
Ben
Whatever.

I'm not into Kofi's desire to slap a global tax on my income to skim a profit on.

You can't point to ONE success that the UN has enjoyed, you disregarded the various scams, and ask ME for a solution which I gave.

DISBAND THEM. What good are they? About as good as a condom with the tip cut off.

==========
I didn’t disregard anything. The Food for oil program abuse 1) involved American companies and 2) is extremely minor compared to the over all charter and responsibility of the UN.
And, to the rest- they were alarmist writings- taking the most minor point and turning it into a major oh my god- the world is falling down around me craziness. (So, yea- I did disregard that. )

How do you disband them? Are you that daft that you don’t understand the UN is just the fricking world. Disband Russia- now- let me see it.

Disband China, Asia, Japan, etc. HOW?

Dude, we are all on this planet. We can either talk with them or fight with them. We can do it around a table or on a battle field. But either way, when there are major differences- they will be worked out.

And, as you can see in Iraq- the war method isn’t always that good.
War is not cheaper than the UN.
War is not cheaper than diplomacy.

Email It | Print It | Flag as Offensive

Ben writes: Wednesday, December, 27, 2006 4:05 PM
That is what I thought Gunny
You can moan, cry, (b)itch, whine, but when asked to offer up a solution.... nothing.

You are part of the problem. Name calling, alarmist, mantra driven bs is all you had to offer up to the discussion.

Your ranting is irrational. You make no sense. You ignore anything that doesn’t support your opinions.
-----
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=of_debts_and_deficits&ns=BruceBartlett&dt=12/26/2006&page=full&comments=true#967c886b-652f-4916-ab70-87a302a9f5bf
-------------------------

And you still have not explained how to "disband" all the other nations. You can disband the 'united' but you cannot disband the 'nations'.

Do you think it is fiscally responsible to wage war rather than meet at the table?

common sense man...common sense.


Huh?
Okay, Ben, you have made your point, the Neo-Cons have ruined the good old US of A. I agree. I believe, though, that the point of the column was that Democrats really have no room to call the kettle black. Try to expand your frame of reference beyond the past 12 years, okay?

From my perspective, having ANY legislators create new laws to cause "Ethics Reform" is moronic. I'm not talking about the purely illegal stuff, but the unethical stuff (hence "Ethics Reform"). All of the pork that both parties wallowed in was grossly disgusting and a betrayal of the public trust (again, hence "Ethics Reform").

I don't know the answer, since only the legislators are legally allowed to pass new laws. Probably the only thing we can do is keep them honest by cleaning house every so often.

Can someone please draft a petition that clearly spells out how we (of "We the People" fame) expect these people to behave? Maybe, just maybe if we get 100 - 200 million signatures on this thing, we can convince the thieves in three piece suits that we mean business.

Vic
To Ben
Point by Point:

Flames: Almost all of the flames I have seen here in the postings have general flames against a political party or a polititian, not personally against a poster.

--------------------------------

Accusations of treason or being called a baby killer are personal. You can claim you wish to limit that the just the dem leadership- but it is applied to all that either support the Dems or do not support Bush.

You (not intended towards Vic) start off with accusations of either and I am not going to play patty cake with you.
I have put ideas out. I asked if they were stupid, ignorant, or foolish? And, it was a serious question.

Everything being heralded, in these comments today, applies more to the Republican leadership of the last 12 years. While I defiantly believe we should watch what any leadership does, we should also allow them to work before the viciousness comes out.

To do otherwise is to declare that nothing will change.
Then all should be content with watching our country decay- because the ones posting today are a major part of the problem.


Ben
Are you obsessing on me? Just don't go gay on me, I'm already spoken for and the missus don't share, more's the pity for women everywhere.

Thanks for posting that stuff. Yep, I stand by every word.

The UN sucks. Nothing but a scam foisted on us by commies in the Truman Admin. Dean Acheson for one.

I'm not a believer in religion. Never said I was. I'm a believer in an eye for an eye...nothing less.

Born and raised a Catholic but dropped out after I saw how corrupt they are. In fact, their stance on abortion is a JOKE seeing as how they permit abortion-lovers like Hanoi John/Ted Kennedy/Red Nancy to take Communion.

Vic
3. They use insidious methods- reference the RNC campaign adds against Max Cleland.

I haven't seen anything that was said about Max Cleland that wasn't true. It may have been considered cruel, but as a politician you can expect that. And by the way, when I went into the Navy in 1970 it was from Georgia so I have no great animosity to Max Cleland other than my normal scorn for liberals; Democrat or Republican. Nothing was said about Max Cleland that was said about G. W. Bush.
========================
It was insidious to run commercial with his picture between Saddam and Bin Laden. There was not truth to it.

Then you haven't been listening
4. Reference the label of traitor to anyone who bjected to this war or dared to disagree with this admin.

I have never, repeat that never, heard any member of the current adminstration call anyone who disagreed with their policy a traitor. Can you point to an actual instance of this??? As a matter of fact, I haven't heard them call anyone a traitor, including the traitors at the New York Times who print classified information that harms the war effort.
================
My reply to answer 3 was the RNC running adverts claiming Max Cleland was a terrorist.

And, do we really have to play ignorance? No, President Bush has not actually spoken the words- but we both really know how politics is played – don’t we? The RNC and DNC put out their talking points- The RNC’s are run through clearing houses such as Rush Limbaugh and the Fox- I really don’t know where the libs go.

And we all know Carl Rove all to well..

Ben
I'll bring your comments to Herr Overlord Rove's attention at our next VRWC meeting.

Yep, he SURE is worse that that Gollum lookalike, James Carville. You remember him don't ya? Velcro-Fly Clinton's number one attack dog and enabler who covered for Bubba's rape of Juanita, Gennifer, and Paula.

I believe his quote was:

"Drag a $100 bill through a trailer park," he said, "and there's no telling what you'll find."

Nothing like slamming thousands of Americans in one fell swoop.

Vic- we should listen to Ford
While he is dead, he was also from a different era. The neo’s now in control were just juniors then and he expressed a lot of doubt in their leadership style.
Another group to be listened to is the Reaganites. Prior to invading Iraq, those on Reagan’s admin not associated with the neo’s wrote a wonderful letter in protest to this admin and the war on Iraq. It was all but ignored in the conservative media.
======================
And to point out- Carter was from the same era. And he has a lot to offer too...

But the neo's don't like diplomacy- they confuse it with appeasement. Without recognizing that brute force without a coherent strategy is worse than appeasement.

Vid
6. It doesn’t matter that once upon a time they were democrats. What matters is that they are wrong in their ideology, their methods, and their tactics.

Again, you missed the point. They are liberals. That is the position of most of the posters here.
-------------------------------

No, they are not. The originals were, but like the CS monitor points out, the new generation are the ones that have drug it down to new lows. And, those are not liberals- nor are they conservatives.

To All
Since Ben and I have reached the point where we will just have to agree to disagree I'll use my last post in this thread to provide a short Bio since I am new to Town Hall.

I was born and raised in the South but have lived all over the country while in the Navy. Have also been to most of the countries in the far East and a few in the near east and Africa.

Made two cruises to Vietnam in the Combat Zone. I got out of the Navy in 1977. I was a Machinist Mate (Nuclear).

I currently live in South Carolina. I am married and have 1 daughter and 3 grandchildren.

I retired last year after 28 years with a public utility.

Politically you could call me a Randian Objectevist without being an athiest. I hate socialism in all of its forms. I believe in the smallest government possible. I am ashamed to admit that I voted for Jimmy Carter in 1974 via absentee ballot. (he was from my home state). I was saved though because the state of Georgia returned by ballot saying that it had not been scrunched by a notary even though it had been scrunched by JAG officer. (At least that what I remember the reason was).

Thank you all - Vic

Do you ever say anything worth reading?
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 2:20 PM
Ben
I'll bring your comments to Herr Overlord Rove's attention at our next VRWC meeting.

Yep, he SURE is worse that that Gollum lookalike, James Carville. You remember him don't ya? Velcro-Fly Clinton's number one attack dog and enabler who covered for Bubba's rape of Juanita, Gennifer, and Paula.

I believe his quote was:

"Drag a $100 bill through a trailer park," he said, "and there's no telling what you'll find."

Nothing like slamming thousands of Americans in one fell swoop.
=====================
Kind of like calling someone a baby killer?
Or a traitor? Or any of the crap you spew out all day?

Again, two standards…

Ben
I was merely replied to your comment that you know Carl Rove all too well.

Ol Evil genius Carl. The root of all of the liberal's problems of the masses not voting for them. HOW DARE THEY not vote for Al? For that Champion of truth, justice, and the American way, Hanoi John.

Nope, it's not their socialist stance, their constant tax raises, their imposition of their agenda via activist judges (gay marriage in Mass for one), their demand for universal health care, cost be d*amned.

Yep, it's all Herr Overlord Rove's fault.

Vic- nice meeting you.
I enjoyed the conversation. I can agree to disagree with anyone. As long as the topic being discussed has more intellectual capacity than name calling. I think ours had.

While I do not play patty cake in my conversations, I much rather a reasonable discussion to childish bickering.

I too spent time in the Navy- ten years. I was in desert Shield and Storm on board the USS John F Kennedy.

I too have kids- two daughters- one of which reads these posts- in amazement at some of the sort sightedness of the posters. My other daughter’s fiancée is currently signing up for the Navy.

Since leaving the service, I have attained two degrees- Accounting and business management. I too believe socialism to be inferior to capitalism. But, also, that capitalism is not practiced by either political party- no bid contracts. Neither economic philosophy is either all good or all bad. Both can be used in sinister ways.

Good luck to you Vic. Hope to see you again.
Ben
Louisiana

Gunny- your just a fool- that is all.
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 2:10 PM
Ben
Are you obsessing on me? Just don't go gay on me, I'm already spoken for and the missus don't share, more's the pity for women everywhere.

Thanks for posting that stuff. Yep, I stand by every word.

The UN sucks. Nothing but a scam foisted on us by commies in the Truman Admin. Dean Acheson for one.

I'm not a believer in religion. Never said I was. I'm a believer in an eye for an eye...nothing less.

Born and raised a Catholic but dropped out after I saw how corrupt they are. In fact, their stance on abortion is a JOKE seeing as how they permit abortion-lovers like Hanoi John/Ted Kennedy/Red Nancy to take Communion.

CTjaeger
ctjaeger writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 2:04 PM
Huh?
Okay, Ben, you have made your point, the Neo-Cons have ruined the good old US of A. I agree. I believe, though, that the point of the column was that Democrats really have no room to call the kettle black. Try to expand your frame of reference beyond the past 12 years, okay?

From my perspective, having ANY legislators create new laws to cause "Ethics Reform" is moronic. I'm not talking about the purely illegal stuff, but the unethical stuff (hence "Ethics Reform"). All of the pork that both parties wallowed in was grossly disgusting and a betrayal of the public trust (again, hence "Ethics Reform").

I don't know the answer, since only the legislators are legally allowed to pass new laws. Probably the only thing we can do is keep them honest by cleaning house every so often.

Can someone please draft a petition that clearly spells out how we (of "We the People" fame) expect these people to behave? Maybe, just maybe if we get 100 - 200 million signatures on this thing, we can convince the thieves in three piece suits that we mean business.
----------------
I agree with this.
And, somewhere above I said to the effect- to make all the accusations before they even take office is ridicules. But, yea, if they start to do the same things- then we howl and get them out. But not before. The republicans are responsible for the leadership of the last 12 years. In the last six, the dems have all but been neutered. The increase in pork, the sheer number of earmarks, the massive increase in spending (without including the war cost) was all republicans..

All I am saying is acknowledge the systemic corruption in the Republican Party before you start lumping all the blame on the dems…

Ben
You're a real master of cut and paste.

Yep, I'm just a tool of the man. Evil Herr Rove's bodyguard and offical cattle-prod in the groinular area of liberals guy.

Gonna do the blog thing here? I'd love to read your thoughts. You should be able to cut and paste them from DU/moveon.org, etc

Oh GunnyG
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 3:17 PM
Ben
You're a real master of cut and paste.

Yep, I'm just a tool of the man. Evil Herr Rove's bodyguard and offical cattle-prod in the groinular area of liberals guy.

Gonna do the blog thing here? I'd love to read your thoughts. You should be able to cut and paste them from DU/moveon.org, etc
==============
The smile I have knowing that you are steaming.

You are not an original type. You like to brag about you feats with the evil liberals- but your intellectual capabilities prevent you from ever having a real conversation. Its okay- everyone wants to believe they are great.
Tear down this evil _________- apply what ever the current evil structure is. Never understanding that the real evil comes after you tear it down. When you replace it with nothing. Just like you want to do with the UN.

You have no idea it’s origins. You have no idea it purpose. You have no idea what it’s absence will bring- just tear it down- cause, who, Rush- Bill Oreilly, told you too.

Good for you Gunny. Call some names- it is easier than thinking.

Teddy *urp* Kennedy wants to do to Iraq
the same thing he did to Mary Jo Kapechne.

Leave it to drown.

Apparently, his suggestion is to pull out now.

I wonder if he did that with her too? Or are the rumors true?

Dittos the UN is the Beast of Revelation
We should get out of the UN, it is the most useless, corrupt organization on the planet.

The UN is the beast of Revelations. I was (as the League of Nations) was not (dissolved by war) and rose out of the ashes (Re-invented as the UN).

The Dems. cannot address ethics reform, as they HAVE NO MORAL COMPASS!

And yes, they are the baby killers, and the RINO's their willing accomplices

ben
how did the dems remove jefferson when he was just on tv at the ceremony for just elected congressmen and they called his name and he rose up waving to clapping and cheering for him it looks like hes still in and getting an ovation for it,and sure there have been republicans caught for coruption ,but we dont hear a republican house speaker that says we are going to be the most ethical congress in history and then have this crook jefferson be part of her ethical congress still be in it ,she said it was going to be ethical so why isnt he out and in jail or on his way there,i guess 90gs of marked cash isnt enough proof that this man is not an ethical dem and therefore should not be in congress if they are to be the most ethical congress in history,you need to get up to date info ,as shown he is still in office and getting standing ovations from the other full of sh*t dems.

Where were the Democrats' ethics
when Cynthia McKinney slapped the cop??? They were all silent. The DEMS and their leadership ALL SAID and DID absolutely nothing about her despicable conduct. The black caucus danced around her behavior. Only ONE Republican had the common decency to call for censuring her behavior, which doesn't say much for the gun-shy GOP either, who wouldn't know a set of nuts if it hit them between the eyes. The DEMS NEVER had ethics before; they invented corruption and perfected it to the political art it is today because they are the only party in DC with an exclusive license granted by the Liberal MSM to practice corruption.

ONE WORD
CLINTON - NEED I SAY MORE???

max cleland
mc was and is a grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat
big pile of dog crap .
his war injurys (sp?) were due to
his lack of competence , which continued
as a U.S. Senator .
his association with kerry is enough
to make one re-gurgitate .

Kennedy didn't just drown Mary Jo
He also cut off funding for the Vietnam War leading to the incarceration of 1.6 million Vietnamese in concentration camps and opening the way for the Communist-allied Khmer Rouge Regime to kill over 1.1 million Cambodians. KENNEDY, the 70's Peaceniks, THE LEFT, AND SO MANY IN OUR BRAINWASHED COLLEGE YOUTH have the blood of countless American soldiers, 30 million innocent babies, and over 1 million Cambodians and many Vietnamese all over them and they just keep on killing. So many in the Democratic party deserve to be arrested. It is the party of MURDER and TREASON! Same Sh&t, Different Day! Where were all the Peaceniks when Clinton bombed the daylights out of Kosovo killing many innocents on the ground just like all the Iraqis that have been killed??? WHERE WERE THEY?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? NO DAMN WHERE TO BE FOUND!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING BUT AMORAL POLITICAL ANIMALS!!!!! To expect anything ethical from an amoral party that would freely practice human sacrifice of the American military and American security to say nothing of the countless murdered unborn on the altar of their wanton lust for lost power is the definition of insanity!

ETHIC REFORM?????
DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY JACKASS PARTY FOLKS WOULD BE IN JAIL OR OUT OF OFFICE IF THERE REALLY WAS ETHIC REFORM? THE NUMBER OF ELEPHNT HUGGERS WOULD BE RUNNING A CLOSE SECOND FOR INFRACTIONS.

DO IT!!!

Ethical Democrats
Ethics is a strange word to apply to Democrats. After all this the party that brought us such memorable ethical lapses as:
1. Willie "Cool Cash" Jefferson. "Gee, I don't know how that bribe money got in my freezer."
2. John "Abscam" Murtha. "Just make cash donations to my favorite "charities"."
3. Teddy "Lets go riding in the car" Kennedy. "(Hic)occifer i, uh, uh, (hic) wasn't uh, drunk (hic) when i drove off that bridge."
4. John "Honey, take my kids to school" Conyers. "I didn't know it was unethical to use government employees to run personal errands."
5. Willie"I never ever had sex with that woman" Clinton. Enough said.
6. John "Why don't you rent one of my buildings" Monaghan, Democrat co-chair of the House Ethics Committee.
7. Tom "Meet my wife, the lobbyist" Daschle. "She has no undue influence over me."--yeah, right.
8. Patrick "Lets go riding in the car" Kennedy. "A chip off the old block."

There are many more examples of Democratic "ethics".

Democrat Ethics 101
1.) Abortion. Even the talk show apologists' darling,
Joe Lieberman, supported Partial Birth Abortion, a.k.a. infanticide. Clinton forced American taxpayers to pay for abortions worldwide when he was President.

2.) Gay marriage. DEMS consider gayness as a sign of "enlightenment", an indication that one is definitely avant garde. See also Gerry Studds' marriage below in Massachusetts in 2004.

3.) The Clinton's FILEGATE, MONICAGATE, CHINAGATE, WHITEWATERGATE, FOSTERGATE, RONBROWNGATE, PAULAJONESGATE...ad infinitum.

4.) a love for TREASON - Vietnam, Iraq, and Peaceniks

5.) Barney Frank's gay prostitution ring. I guessthey call this "free enterprise" or the Left's version of "capitalism".

6.) Debauchery comes naturally with no shame whatsoever: i. e., Gerry Studds' gay relationship with a 17 year old page... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/people/Gerry+Studds

7.) They love Communism and Socialism - They especially love dictatorships and the likes of Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, and Ahmadinejad. Carter never misses an opportunity to buddy up and rig an election like he did for Chavez. Chavez is on record as having already given a donation of $1,000,000.00 to none other than al Qaeda, yet Carter and whackjob, Cindy Sheehan, think this man's the bomb.

8.) They always oppose Israel. Carter's recent book gives Palestinians a free pass and so immensely distorted facts that his longtime friend and Democrat who was the overseer for the Carter Center here in Atlanta resigned over irreconcilable differences after Carter published this book. Clinton and Carter spared no accolades for Yasser Arafat, their favorite terrorist and Jew killer. DEMS went ecstatic when Carter got the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts at appeasing and encouraging terrorism and committing TREASON against his homeland.

9.) Lies, lies, and more lies. THESE GUYS ARE ALWAYS LAWYERS. Sandy Burglar comes to mind when he lied profusely about where and what was on the stolen National Archive documents and why he stole them in the first place and also his boss comes to mind, who is still trying to figure out what the meaning of "is" is. Then of course you have Dan Blather who had to fabricate the truth to try to rig an election for Kerry, the man who could have been Supreme Traitor-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces. Hillary Clinton said, "The END justifies the MEANS," which apparently explains why she and countless other DEMS lied repeatedly on the stand about the whereabouts of FBI files on her political enemies in DC.

9.) They oppose GOD and all organized Christianity - DEMS have a PC army called the ACLU that is hellbent on removing all vestiges of GOD in the public forum and in ALL of society.

10.) Legalism - The DEMS keep an army of lawyers on hand to immediately lock up any Conservative legislation passed by Conservative Representatives duly elected by the American People, yet the DEMS who can't get elected unless they lie profusely about who they really are and what they plan to do, see nothing wrong with immediately challenging legislation with a lawsuit in court to put a hold on the enforcement of the new law until it runs through in many cases the entire legal system in an attempt to never let the legislation ever see the light of day. THIS IS ABUSE OF OUR SYSTEM AND OUR CONSTITUTION BY DEMS WHO ARE ALMOST OVERWHELMINGLY LAWYERS. They even have LIBERAL JUDGES who have the unmitigated gall to make the AMERICAN TAXPAYERS pay for the ACLU lawsuits now. Liberal judges run for office with Liberal lawyers' campaign money, and we just sit back and wonder why the system is so corrupt. THE LEGIONS OF CORRUPT DEMOCRATIC PARTY LAWYERS CREATED THIS GOOD OL' BOY SYSTEM to thwart the intentions of our Founding Fathers to make this a democracy of the PEOPLE.


Who else but the DEMS
would elect and esteem a former uber-racist Klan Wizard like Robert "KKK" Byrd who has said the n-word so many times now and been given a free pass every single time by the MSM? The DEMS see nothing wrong with keeping an entire race of Black Americans on the Democratic Party Welfare Plantation with race-baiting lies all in the name of getting elected. Again, in the words of the Hildebeast, "the END justifies the MEANS!" When have they ever really cared about putting blacks in their administrations??? They just want blacks in the voting booth and on the plantation government dole in their back pocket where they prefer blacks belong. They do not care one iota about the genuine welfare of black people. They only wish to further enslave Black Americans. It is covert racism.

Isn't it interesting...
...and ironic that the folks who think government needs "ethics reform" are the self-same folks who claim you cannot legislate morality?

Robert E Lee said it best...
NUF SAID!!!

Yeah Ben
You did not reply to gunner; He is right about Jefferson getting welcomed and Jefferson even got a standing ovation.


You chastise "right wing" posters for name calling , but give a pass to others , Please apply ethics equally.

The point is if you run on a clean up the swamp platform, you need to be sure to be free of corruption. Trying to put Murtha, Hastings, and Jefferson in positions of authority violated one of the oldest rules of ethics: you must avoid even the APPEARANCE of wrongdoing.

gunner
gunner writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 6:47 PM
ben
how did the dems remove jefferson when he was just on tv at the ceremony for just elected congressmen and they called his name and he rose up waving to clapping and cheering for him it looks like hes still in and getting an ovation for it,and sure there have been republicans caught for coruption ,but we dont hear a republican house speaker that says we are going to be the most ethical congress in history and then have this crook jefferson be part of her ethical congress still be in it ,she said it was going to be ethical so why isnt he out and in jail or on his way there,i guess 90gs of marked cash isnt enough proof that this man is not an ethical dem and therefore should not be in congress if they are to be the most ethical congress in history,you need to get up to date info ,as shown he is still in office and getting standing ovations from the other full of sh*t dems.
====================
They removed him from his seat on the ways and means committee. He is no longer on any committees.

The voters did put him back in office- that is not the national leadership power. And that had more to do with 1) a weak candidate running against him and 2) Gerrymandering.

Gunner
she said it was going to be ethical so why isnt he out and in jail or on his way there,i guess 90gs of marked cash isnt enough proof that this man is not an ethical dem and therefore should not be in congress if they are to be the most ethical congress in history,you need to get up to date info ,as shown he is still in office and getting standing ovations from the other full of sh*t dems.
=====================
Neither the dems or the repug controll the FBI. The FBI has not brought charges. What does that have to do with the Dem. leadership?

Say More
Take Back the Government writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 6:59 PM
ONE WORD
CLINTON - NEED I SAY MORE???
====================
Over 70 million spent.
Multiple investigations.
No laws broke.
No fraud found.

Starr's witch hunt was about sex... NO one could have been investigated more and had less found.

That investigation proved that Clinton was not corrupt. You can hate Clinton all you want. I don’t care.

But if you want to compare the policies of Clinton to those of Bush- Bring it on…

Take Back the Government
Take Back the Government
Where were all the Peaceniks when Clinton bombed the daylights out of Kosovo killing many innocents on the ground just like all the Iraqis that have been killed??? WHERE WERE THEY?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? NO DAMN WHERE TO BE FOUND!!!! THEY ARE NOTHING BUT AMORAL POLITICAL ANIMALS!!!!! To expect anything ethical from an amoral party that would freely practice human sacrifice of the American military and American security to say nothing of the countless murdered unborn on the altar of their wanton lust for lost power is the definition of insanity!
=========================================
I will be more than happy to debate a comparison of the Kosovo war- which was planned and executed with competence against this current Iraq war which has been one big incompetent mess.

Anytime..

Take Back the Government writes:
Take Back the Government writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 8:20 PM
Democrat Ethics 101
=================

I'm sorry, after reading this; I realized that you are just an idiot...

I would bet that you and GunnyG get along well in the crazy a.s.s. world you live in..

One where facts distort to what ever we want them to be....

Packrat writes:
Packrat writes: Wednesday, January, 10, 2007 8:02 AM
Yeah Ben
You did not reply to gunner; He is right about Jefferson getting welcomed and Jefferson even got a standing ovation.


You chastise "right wing" posters for name calling , but give a pass to others , Please apply ethics equally.
====================
what are you talking about? GunnyG was acting like a little brat- i treated him as one.
===================================

The point is if you run on a clean up the swamp platform, you need to be sure to be free of corruption. Trying to put Murtha, Hastings, and Jefferson in positions of authority violated one of the oldest rules of ethics: you must avoid even the APPEARANCE of wrongdoing.
===========================

I have already answered the question- many time on jefferson.

Murtha, how dare he, was caught on tape NOT accepting a bribe- evil evil man.

As for the rest I don't care- My point is, and has been since yesterday:
1) Acknowledge the republicans are corrupt
2) Everything the posters (still) are saying about the possibility of the dems unethical behavior has already been happening with the repugs for the last 12 years.

I understand that we should continue NOT to trust the dems blindly. I never would, but I have not seen one person acknowledge the pure corruption of the repug party.



Take Back the Government writes:
Take Back the Government writes: Tuesday, January, 09, 2007 8:39 PM
Who else but the DEMS
would elect and esteem a former uber-racist Klan Wizard like Robert "KKK" Byrd who has said the n-word so many times now and been given a free pass every single time by the MSM? The DEMS see nothing wrong with keeping an entire race of Black Americans on the Democratic Party Welfare Plantation with race-baiting lies all in the name of getting elected. Again, in the words of the Hildebeast, "the END justifies the MEANS!" When have they ever really cared about putting blacks in their administrations??? They just want blacks in the voting booth and on the plantation government dole in their back pocket where they prefer blacks belong. They do not care one iota about the genuine welfare of black people. They only wish to further enslave Black Americans. It is covert racism.

==================

This is overt insanity. Talk about a fanatical conspiracy theory.

Ben

Actually I was talking about the dealings Murtha had with lobbyists outline in the Dec 25 issue of the Washington Post, and as outlined there it does have the APPEARANCE of impropriety.

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