CT: Where are we on missile defense? We have rogue nations like North Koreaand now Iraq threatening with possible nuclear missiles.

DR: When we came in (2001), the president wanted to proceed with missiledefense. Even the proponents didn't agree with each other. Some wanted land,some wanted sea. And the opponents were viscerally against it. It was callednational missile defense so our allies were against it. To the extent wewere successful in defending ourselves, they felt they would no longer beprotected. So we had many meetings. We ended up calling it missile defenseand not national missile defense and our goal was not to separate ourselvesfrom our allies and friends.

Second, it meant the concept of a perfect shield, which is the way PresidentReagan's proposals were characterized by people who wanted to be dismissive.We decided to say that the reality is that this was in an early stage. Wewanted to do the developmental work to see what was possible and what madesense and what kinds of capabilities might be developed. That requiredgetting out of the ballistic missile treaty, which the president stepped upand did, to his great credit. That permitted us to do the necessary researchand development. We have been proceeding to do that.

I've always believed the way you get something is not by sitting aroundtrying to develop it full blown before you put it out there, but you testit, use it, play with it, evolve it, and that's what we've been doing. Wehave evolved to the point where we have an initial missile capability toshoot down a missile from a rogue state. We've not had to do it yet, but weare prepared to. Each month that goes by, additional elements add to thatcapability; whether it's an additional radar here, or a sensor there, anadditional interceptor, or a ship that can help triangulate and addinformation, or whether it's the development of information about thecapabilities of others Š all of that adds to a growing body of knowledgethat gives us increasing confidence we will continue to evolve thiscapability at a pace we believe is appropriate to the threat.

You'd like things faster, I suppose, but the North Koreans put thatTaepodong-2 (missile) on there and it didn't work. What we have to do isrecognize there is a threat to our country and there will be a growing treatto our country and we have to invest and evolve this capability, as we havebeen doing. We're now discussing things with European countries as to ways we could add radars and interceptors and various sensors that would improvethe capability to intercept an Iranian rogue missile.

CT: What are you most proud of in this, your latest, service in Washingtonand what is your biggest disappointment?

(Rumsfeld's aide handed me a stack of papers, in which Rumsfeld outlined his career high points, which included the liberation of 50 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq, which led to elections in Afghanistan and Iraq,capturing, killing the senior leadership of America's enemies, the shapingof forces for asymmetric warfare and humanitarian efforts, such asassistance for victims of hurricanes Katrina and Rita, the modernization offorces, organizational transformation, and moving toward a more agileinstitution.)

DR: We've achieved a number of accomplishments and a number of initiatives.We face risks down the road from things like cyber attacks, given our highdegree of vulnerability. Given our free way of life, we face risks fromchemical, biological as well as nuclear devices.

CT: Biggest disappointment?

DR: It's the inability to help the free people of the world to understand that this new century and the struggle we're engaged in is real, is terriblydangerous to their safety and regrettably, it is not going to be as easilyseen in terms of pitched battles.

CT: Will it take another 9/11 to make people wake up?

DR: There are people who have written that this administration is a victimof its success, due to the fact that there hasn't been another attack insidethe United States. I remember shortly after Sept. 11, I met with the Sultanof Oman in a tent. It must have been 150 degrees. We were perspiring throughevery piece of clothing we had on. He said this terrible thing that'shappened might be a blessing in disguise. It may be the thing that will wakeup the world to the danger these extremists pose, before those people gettheir hands on chemical, or biological or nuclear weapons where they couldkill many multiples of what they were able to kill on Sept. 11.

This was a man sitting in a tent in the desert with that perspective andunderstanding of the dangers of extremists. It did for a short while, butthen that threat diminished in their minds, whereas it not only has notdiminished in reality, it has grown because of the advances in technologies.Look at the Johns Hopkins exercise with small pox called Dark Winter. It wasput in three airports in America. Something between 800,000 and 1 million people 'died' in some number of months, or a year, from a disease people areno longer vaccinated against. So there are things that can be done. There'sa tendency for a lot of people to be dismissive of this and to ridicule it.

Churchill's phrase about the gathering storm - there was a storm gathering,but there were people in Europe who didn't believe it and who didn't takethe periodic storm clouds and the squalls as a real threat. They thoughtthey were transitory and, of course, paid an enormous penalty in treasureand life for their failure to understand the nature of that threat. I worrywe are in a gathering storm and we do not, as a society, accept it. Many ofthe elites of our society, the key opinion leaders, are unwilling or unableto accept what an awful lot of people believe to be the case. The penaltyfor being wrong can be enormous.

CT: Gen. MacArthur said, Œold soldiers never die, they just fade away.' Whatabout old secretaries of defense? A book?

DR: I don't know. I haven't given any thought to it. There are a lot ofpeople who think I should write a book and I may very well. Life's been goodand we feel very, very fortunate to have been able to be here and to beinvolved in something as important as this. Its' been an enormouslychallenging time for the country. I feel so fortunate to have had this veryintimate relationship with these amazing people in uniform - the young menand women who volunteer - who represent the best led, the best equipped, thebest trained, the most capable military in the world. They're motivated.They're proud. The people who are dismissive of them don't understand what'sgoing on in our society.

These are terrific people and they are doing a superb job. The fact thatit's tough; the fact that it's long; the fact that it's hard; the fact thatit can be ugly at times should take nothing away from what they're doing.They're doing everything a military can do.

Health care for Iraqis and Afghanis and prisons for criminals is not the jobof the military, all of those things are the tasks of other elements of ourgovernment and coalition partners and they take time. I read where someonewas saying this is longer than World War II. Germany didn't even have agovernment until 1949, as I recall. And you were dealing with a verydifferent environment in Western Europe than you are here. So the progressthat's been made in these countries, when the uniform personnel look backfive, 10 or 15 years from now, they're going to know that they helpedliberate 50 million people. That is a big thing. It is historic. They'regoing to know they've given these folks an opportunity to succeed in anenvironment that is not a repressive political system, but a free politicalsystem.

Is it easy to get from where they were to that? No, it's hard. It's darnhard. But is it worth it? You bet. People said the Japanese could never havea democracy. It didn't fit their culture, they said. Well, the Japanese aredoing pretty well with the second biggest economy on Earth. I feel thesefolks can be darn proud of what they've done and what they're doing.Fortunately, the history won't be written by the local reporters who arelooking for bad news to report because it's newsworthy. It will be writtenby history over time and with perspective.