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Friday, January 09, 2009
Burt Prelutsky :: Townhall.com Columnist
Taking Sides In The Middle East
by Burt Prelutsky
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Just for the record, I am a non-observant Jew. That means that my mother’s father, Max Lashevsky, who kept kosher and attended an orthodox synagogue every day of his life, would probably have considered me a heathen, while Adolph Hitler would have exterminated me in a gas oven.

I want that to be perfectly clear so that when I declare my concern for Israel, nobody will simply assume it’s because I’m Jewish. I am on the side of Israel because it’s a western democracy, an ally of America, and because I regard her enemies as the scum of the world.

Israel’s foes believe in targeting women and children just so long as they’re Jewish or Christian. They are not only intolerant of the freedoms we take for granted -- speech and religion -- but they are polygamous, treat their women as chattel and encourage their children to achieve martyrdom as suicide bombers. Moreover, so-called honor killings are part of what passes for their culture.

In order to realize what a paternalistic society they have, you need only look at a photo of an Arab mob carting a corpse through the streets of Gaza; even when it’s the corpse of a child, I challenge you to find a woman anywhere in sight. So far as the Arabs are concerned, the mother, grandmother, aunts and sisters, are of absolutely no consequence.

Yet here in America and even more so in Europe, you will find millions of theoretically civilized people who find a moral equivalence between Israel and her sworn enemies -- and even more millions who favor the Arabs.

In a recent Rasmussen Poll, 62% of Republicans in America sided with Israel, while a mere 31% of Democrats favored Israel in the current conflict.

As you may have noticed, the world’s media rarely if ever remarked about the thousands of missiles Hamas fired into Israel over the past few years. However, once Israel finally got around to announcing that enough was enough, and went on the offensive, Condoleezza Rice and the European Union didn’t waste a second before crying “Foul!” and throwing a penalty flag.

This same pattern is followed each and every time that Israel responds to unprovoked attacks. You can invariably count on the nations of the world agreeing that Israel is out of line. While it’s nice they can agree on something, it’s a shame that “something” never seems to be Islamic terrorism, Arab barbarism or slavery in modern- day Africa.

Can you imagine anyone in his right mind 67 years ago claiming that America was over-reacting to Pearl Harbor? Would anybody but an idiot have suggested that once America had sunk an equal number of Japanese battleships or killed an equal number of Japanese soldiers and sailors that we should have ceased hostilities and turned things over to European diplomats, especially after seeing how well those fellows had kept Hitler and Mussolini in check?

The fact is, only Arabs would continue to call the human refuse of Gaza refugees. The only reason that there were any Arab refugees back in 1948 was because Egypt, Jordan and Syria, promised to exterminate the Jews and divide the spoils, not because the Israelites had exiled its Arab population. Once Israel fought off the invaders, no Arab nation would open its doors to the refugees, and to this day no Arab nation ever has.

But that was 61 years ago! Who ever heard of people being refugees for six decades? How can people who have never lived in Israel, whose fathers and mothers never lived in Israel, continue to lay claim to a place where they’ve never set foot -- and which, according to Arab textbooks, doesn’t even exist? They might as well insist they have a claim to Oz, Atlantis or Brigadoon.

Frankly, I marvel at Israel’s spiritual fortitude, at her reluctance to seek Biblical retribution. Even one missile would be enough to get me riled up. To absorb 10,000 missile attacks strikes me as verging on the masochistic. I honestly think Israel continues to be far too concerned with world opinion. After 61 years of hearing one’s enemies repeating Hitler’s plans for the final solution, collateral damage would be the least of my concerns.

I understand that civilized societies are supposed to worry about the deaths of women and children. But in civilized societies, parents don’t raise their youngsters to be suicide bombers and they certainly wouldn’t dance in the street when 3,000 innocent Americans were incinerated on 9/11.

There are still people who regret the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I am not one of those people. That’s because it’s estimated that if the bombs had not been dropped, if, instead, America had been forced to invade Japan, as many as a million lives -- Japanese as well as American -- would have been lost. Coincidentally, like the Arabs and the Muslims, the Japanese had their own version of youthful suicide bombers -- the Kamikaze pilots who sacrificed their lives by crashing their planes into American ships.

One of the young sailors who was in the South Pacific at the time, on his way to the planned invasion, was later to become a dear friend of mine. Last week, he died at the age of 81. Perhaps the reason that Joe X Price got to live those additional 63 years was because when it really counted, America didn’t overly concern itself with collateral damage.

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About The Author
W. Burt Prelutsky is an accomplished, well-rounded writer and author of "The Secret of Their Success: Interviews with Legends and Luminaries."
 
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ISRAEL
PROFESSOR WAGSTAFF'S THOUGHTS ON ISRAEL? HE DOESN'T TAKE SIDES, BUT HE GIVES A SIMPLE ANSWER. READ IT AT, http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com/2009/01/professor-wags taffs-thoughts-on-israel.html

Hey, we all know Israel is the same as
...Hamas. Actually, they're worse. Aren't they dailykuss, huffpo,dem-underground, etc?

We "know" this because, it can't only be hamas who joyfully huddles women and kids around rocket launch pads and other prime military targets so they can then run around carrying the bodies, of the innocents hamas themselves murdered, in a satanic and disgusting death-dance for their willing accomplices in the kgb-media....sorry, started feeling hate just now...not good for the soul.

Thank you hamas! And thank you to those loveable, never speak truth, lovers of mass-murderers, marxism and death in general:
the "news" media! Thank you all and see you in hell!

The Writer Stops By
Robert: One, your first three lines are jibberish; two,your response doesn't disprove my contention.

Moreover, let us not forget that in Gaza the people voted for Hamas, a group with a political platform consisting of a single plank: the extermination of Israel.

Burt Prelutsky

Twin..
I am in total agreement with your article. It is sensible and honest. ranger29's response in unintelligible...as is usually the case. But I always read his "contributions" trying to understand his point of view.

Robert,
practically everything you write is jibberish.

By the way, to which "wing" do you belong?

Everyone is wrong except you, right?

You need help son.

Fruit.

Oh my Lord in Heaven!
Now an author has taken to responding to it. Am I the only one who can discern between a post by a person w/ a legit argument and a post by a mental patient!?!

And so every reverse troll (ie; one who encourages trolls) is now officially validated by an actual "contributor" to Th to go ahead and fill this place w/ one inane, drivel infested post after another, ad infinitum, and what-not...oh geez, I give up. this place is wrecked and will never be more than a vomitorium for quarter wits and those who are (almost) twice as smart as them...

Burt
First of all,great read today.I marvel at the Israeli restraint sometimes but enough is enough.You were correct in stating "I honestly think Israel continues to be far too concerned with world opinion." Now,with a liberal about to take office,I'm afraid we'll also get stuck concerning ourselves with what the likes of the European union et al thinks.

Oh and secondly,responding to Robert is a waste of keystroke.His posts have approx 6hrs left to swirl in the bowl before getting flushed in the morning(what an idiot).

Five star essay today,thanks.

Robert,
I think you make a valid point occasionally.

Unfortunately your lack of civility keeps most of them erased by 8 am.

The Writer Stops By Again
Ralph: The Jews did not forcibly wrench Israel from the Arabs. Zionists had been buying up land since the 19th century from Arabs, and at inflated prices, considering that it was all desert at the time. The land wasn't simply yanked away by the U.N. and handed over to the Jews. All that happened in 1948 was that the U.N. recognized Israel as a nation. The only additional land the Jews ever got was as the result of taking it after being attacked. Such are the spoils of war. They have since given most of it back in the hope of achieving peace at long last. But its enemies don't want peace any more than the surrounding Arab nations want to have the so-called refugees on their turf.
As for being on the side of western civilization, I plead guilty.

Burt Prelutsky

I'm Torn.
I can relate to Burt's feelings re Israel, on the face of it.

Upon further review, I might still be torn, in my own circumstance. Yes, I was born of Irish and German heritage. Sometimes I think I'd like to return to the Black Forest of Deutshland, or however it's spelled, and worship Wooden, or Wooten, or whomever it is. and I'm torn because my Irish side thinks sometimes of returning to the Old Sod, and joining the Leprechans.

If I were to do either of these things, I wonder if the folks living there would object. I doubt it, highly. They might not even mind if I formed a government of Wootens and Leprechans.

Actually, I wanted Israel to be in Arizona. The Gila River might have stood in for the Jordan, and a little of California could have been given over, to provide a seaport. That would have been mighty nice, and I guess it's too late, now.

Oh well.

One Jew's Perspective
When will the world write a different story about the Jews? If we could choose one, it would surely not be this. I wonder if the Arabs in Gaza would choose a rewrite for themselves.

Failed States
Thanks, Burt, for bringing a little reality into the Israeli-Arab conflict. The basic problem is that Israel is a 21st Century nation while the Islamic states still think they are in the 13th Century. Only oil keeps these states flourishing. Once it is gone they will actually slip back into the 13th Century. The noble Arabs, lionized by Lawrence of Arabia and the U.S. State Department, are actually the last barbarians in the 21st Century. If it wasn't for their oil riches they would probably degenerate into squabbling murderous kingdoms like the states in Africa. They are desperately in need of cultural makeovers. They are still blithely killing each other as well as their women and children. Allah is a 13th Century god who should have been abandoned many centuries ago.

Something they forget
Hamas, Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad, Putin, Kim Jong Ill, Al Queida and ole Hugo Chavez seem to have forgotten that America still has the capability to repeat Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Problem is, they know we no longer have the balls.
Personally, If Ahmadinejad wants a nuclear weapon so badly....we should give em one!

Cultural Sensitivity
We should have the good taste to understand the Arab culture. Arranging for children to die in order to get bad press for the Israelis must be accepted practice within the Arab culture and who are we to find fault with it? It is apparent the Arabs would rather die than let the Israelis live.

RE: Burt's reply to Ralph at 3:14 AM
Burt's short history lesson is correct. Problem is that most people don't know the history of Palestine, especially 20th century. Instead most anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli posts are ignorant and biased, and refuse to educate themselves.
Read about Jewish purchase of poor land from Turkish and Arab owners, their cultivation of the land, Arab migration to work on Jewish farms, kibbutzs, British White Papers on Palestine, League of Nations mandate, Arab riots against Jews, Arab guerillas, UN decision (1948), 5 Arab armies' invasion in 1948, 5 Israel-Arab nations'wars(1948,1956,1967,1973.

Research Arab terrorist organizations(PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, Islam Jihad, Moslem Brotherhood, many others), Iraq's missile attacks on Israel in First Gulf War, Hamas 6000+ missiles fired in last few years into Israel, Hamas' takeover of Gaza from and murder of PLO(Al Fatah) there.

Consider Hamas' use of civilians as human shields, use of hospitals and schools for munition and defensive positions, use of women and children as suicide bombers, glorification of murdering innocent women and children.

These are Not the earmarks of a Civilized Society which respects human life but rather of Savages.

So before a person exposes her/his ignorance, learn some history of the Middle East.

I agree 100%

Burt wrote: "...I am on the side of Israel because it’s a western democracy, an ally of America, and because I regard her enemies as the scum of the world..."

So now Wobbie knows more than Burt
about the conditions in the Middle East and the reasons why this coflict is ongoing?

ROFLMMFAO!!!

The only thing Wobbie knows better than anyone is how to be a pompous, ignorant, and ARROGANT JACKASS.

But serioulsy Burt, it is a waste of your time to even try to engage Wobbie/wanger29.
He's clearly delusional and according to himself, has had more occupations, accomplished more, and knows more than EVERYONE else on the planet combined.

But can't answer any questions about, or prove ANY of the claims he's ever made.

Obama's view is 'Dangerous'

"Islam can be compatible with the modern world. It can be a partner with the Christian & Jewish & Hindu & Buddhist faiths in trying to create a better world." Barak Obama 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

compatible = capable of existing together in harmony.
Islam is a 700 AD religion and has NO rights for women.

partner = to join as a partner.
Islam and the Jewish religion partners?
================================================
"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

Obama thinks Hamas and Iran can become partners with America and Israel?

“At the “World Without Zionism” conference held in Tehran in October 2005, as the crowd chanted “death to Israel, death to America, death to England,” the Iranian President Ahminajead said...with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt.”

Obama is talking about negotiating with the madman from Iran who has stated in no uncertain terms that America and Israel will be destroyed in Ahminajeads lifetime?


re: Ralph at 1:18 AM
Do you know anything about the rise of Islam and the various Arab empires starting in the 7th century? The invasions and conquests in the Mideast, North Africa, and Europe before the Crusades? Have you ever heard about the Arab crusades(Jihads)everywhere, the Battle of Tours, France or the Arab attacks on Constantinople, the Ottoman Turks' last attack on Vienna (1683? Or about the struggles between the Roman and Byzantine Empires versus the Arabs, and later Turks?

Outstanding article Burt!!
As a young man, I worked alongside a gentleman named Mr Wolf who survived the holocaust, his trevail haunts my memory even today, he was one of the nicest people I ever met despite the horror he had endured. He lost his entire family to the nazi's simply for being a Jew, this must never be allowed to happen again.

This conflict is pure anti-semitism, something I have never understood, the arabs are the scum of the earth, yet the politicians give them moral equivalency. They are everything Burt describes and more, a cancer on the world and a fifth column in our own country, but the pols cater to them with their PC rhetoric.
They hate Israel because it proves their inadequacy as a people, their "religion" keeps them in the 7th century and their desire to wreck the world because of it threatens us all, not just Israel.

What kind of people teach their children that they have a religious duty to kill Jews and infidels, certainly not a peaceful one, it's high time Israel says enough, threatens to nuke the capitols of every arab country that supports this genocide and if they don't change their tune, do it, the world will be a better place without these cockroaches.

Good article & Good Posts
Irrespective of which side that you are on, any country, or for that matter any person, has the right to defend themselves against mortal aggression.

As far as world opinion. Screw 'em! I'm sure that their view would be different if the opinion-makers were on the receiving end of a missle.

As Burt points out "In a recent Rasmussen Poll, 62% of Republicans in America sided with Israel, while a mere 31% of Democrats favored Israel in the current conflict." Then why do the majority of American Jews support the Dims?

That's a 2 to 1 reason for the Jews to support Republicans. Totally irrational in my view.


Please don't feed the trolls, Burt
I agree with your assessment of the situation in Israel.

How long would we take Cuba lobbing missiles into downtown Miami?

The Israeli's don't ask us to spill American blood on their behalf, just for our support for a free nation under attack.

This should be an easy decision on our part.

Some Relevant Comparisons
Arab countries: 22
Islamic countries: 40+
Jewish countries: 1

Estimates:
Arab population: several 100 million
Islamic " : 1 billion +
Jewish " : 18-20 million
Israeli Pop: 6 million

Jews in Arab countries: very few
Arab citizens of Israel: 1 million

Democracies in Mideast: 1 (Israel)
Arab Democracies: Zero

Developed economy
Arab countries: zero
Israel: 1

Contributions to Global society (exclude Oil)
Arab counties: zero
Israel: many

Treatment of women:
Arab countries: low - medium
Israel: high

Basic Human Rights:
Arab countries: generally low
Israel: high

Freedoms of Speech, Press; Right to assemble, petition govt
Arab countries: low to non-existent
Israel: yes

So why do many people and countries of the world (non-Arab, non-Islamic) want the destruction of Israel, the only functioning democratic, capitalist country in the Mid East?
And that is a very Important Question.

Who believes the media reporting?

We know the MSM is biased and reports everything with the slant of their view.

We are NOW supposed to believe everything they tell us about what is going on between Israel and Palestine?

I am reminded of the 'Doctored' pictures a few years ago that EVEN CNN reported on.

Watch this video from CNN - it is worth the time watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXy6q4cH4pw&feature=related

Find out for yourselves
Burt,

Your quoted 62/31 divide between D-R on support for Israel is a bit like Jewish voting patterns in the US -- but the other way around. Do you think American Jewry will awake to whom their true friends are before it is too late?

I urge everyone who wants to comment credibly on the situation to read the Hamas charter. I wonder how many of those 69% of Dems against Israel have actually read it. It's not long (36 articles), but it is frightening. Some pertinent points from the charter:

- All the land of "Palestine" is to belong to Muslims only and forever. (Articles 11 and 14) Burt mentions Jews BUYING the land of modern-day Israel. In 1935, some of the imams in the area issued a fatwah against the selling of land to Jews.
- All Muslims are called to fight to return the land to Muslim rule. This includes women (Article 12) and children (Article 15). Now you know why Hamas has no scruples using children as human shields.
- Hamas does not recognize any peaceful solutions. (Article 13) So much for them honoring a cease-fire.
- Hamas members are rather paranoid types, believing their enemies control all the media in the world, as well as the Freemasons, the Rotary Club, the Lions Club, and the UN. They were also responsible for the French revolution, the Russian revolution, WWI, pretty much every other bad thing that has happened to mankind. (Article 22)
- There is no role for a secular Palestinian movement. (Article 27)
- Christians and Jews may live in peace with Muslims, but only if they submit to Muslim rule. In fact, it is their "duty" to submit. (Article 31)




Burt
I am like you, a non-observant Jew who has the cognitive sense to know the history of Israel's right to exist and defend itself.

Regardless, no matter what pearls of wisdom you supply, even if you had written in blood signed documentation of true events, and even if you had video of all proof in the matters that support Israel...you will never ever convince or change the minds of those who disagree with you. Just like liberalism, anti-Semitism is a mental disease.

That's all it boils down to. Of course, since you attract every Jew hating lunatic, I will get a plethora of copy and paste links and vile propaganda attempting to disprove myself and you and anyone who support's Israel's decisions.

I can't wait to hear one of them say, and they will because they always do, that just because they believe that Israel stole the land and are occupiers of the poor innocent Palestinians, and that the Jews need to cease fire and not worry if Hamas lobs any more bombs at them or do suicide attacks anymore because it's within the rights of Hamas to do so--does not make them a classic Jew hater.

Anyhoo, fight the good fight even though it's futile. I'm off to work doing my patriotic duty so I can pay my taxes to support Fannie, Freddie, the UAW, and probably Larry Flint.

Toodles.

Great Article Burt!
Forget Wobbie, Burt. He is an ignorant idiot. His sole purpose here at Th is to disrupt the flow of information.

My own father fought in WW2 (pilot, 33rd Pursuit Group, P40's; North Africa, Sicily, and Italy) and one of his reasons for signing up before Pearl Harbor was he had figured out what Germany was doing to the Jews and other peoples in Eastern Europe.

Israel is totally within its "rights" in defending itself. In my opinion, Israel has shown remarkable restraint. I would have "nuked" the rest of the ME back to the "stone age" years ago.

aside to Valhalla
Thank you for making the point, to RALPH, in numbers that I was going to try to make in text. The "White Man's Burden" only applies if they want others to reach the level that they have at home. There are very few non-European (or predominantly settle by European) nations that are first world. The thing that most of the world needed (and that most outside the Anglosphere do not have) is a consistent application of the rule of law, realization that the leaders are not beyond the law (a la King John), and that political differences can usually be resolved without open warfare or genocide.

I'm glad to be living in a nation founded by ex-Europeans. It means I'm safer. Israel is the only first-world country in the area, and should be the model for others to follow, IMHO.

To Burt Prelutsky
Sgt Relic is right, Burt: please don't feed the trolls. Trying to have a serious discussion with Ranger29 is a fool's errand: I NEVER respond to any of his posts. And look what's happened now: as has become a daily occurrence on TownHall, his posts have now been removed.

I'm sure you must have noticed by now that there are plenty of others who come to this site just like Ranger29 - and they're even more addled than HE is, if that's possible. To call them "fools" is almost too kind. Again, you're wasting your time trying to have a serious discussion with them: your excellent brain cells can be put to far more productive use than getting into a food fight with many of the "useful idiots" on the left who clutter up this site with their on-line manure.

I'm Jewish by birth and a conservative Christian by faith. Both these aspects of what makes me me play into my support for Israel, but the latter isn't even because of what I believe about Israel's role in end-times Biblical prophecy: like Jerry Falwell and many other conservative Christians, we've come to believe that God meant what He said when he told Abraham in Genesis 12 that He would bless those who bless he and his seed and curse those who curse it. And like you, the fact that Israel is the lone friend of America and a western democracy in the sea of arrested development that is called the Islamic world in itself would warrant my support.

To revisit the issue of answering the trolls, since you've worked in the entertainment industry, I've got a quote for you. It's from Glen Campbell in the movie True Grit, when he commended Kim Darby for refusing to bandy words with a tipsy John Wayne by telling her, "You've done nothing when you've bested a fool".

Burt-
I am totally with you. Last night, I fell asleep with the tv on and the news was droning in the background all night. Can I tell you how damn sick I am of hearing how many children have died? I am not without sympathy, but Hamas brought it on themselves and the fact that our P-E COW is now going to open up dialogue with Hamas for F***"s sake makes me so angry, I cannot see straight.
NO DIALOGUE. We already did that in 2005 and you trolls are john f-ing carry stoopid of you think it will work.

THE ANTI LIBERAL ZONE
As promised, has an essay up excoriating the libvermin's cash cow...Social SUCKurity. Click on my handle to read it and review some little known facts about the Ponzi Scam.

This is why I read your column
Not only do you make sense most of the time. You also take the trouble to read and even respond to the comments.

You're right, of course. The choice between Medieval fanatics who yearn to kill us (and destroy our culture) and a stable, generally amiable (albeit regrettably socialist) Western-style democracy, picking a side is as easy as falling off a fence. Would that we supported Israel with less hemming and hawing.

Gray Ghost
"I would have "nuked" the rest of the ME back to the "stone age" years ago."

Carpet bombing would be the perfect perscription for the Gaza and the pali-vermin located therein.

Those who danced in the streets on 9-11 deserve not one iots of sympathy from us.

A Few Comments & A Question
You are right on again Burt. But:
“Israel’s foes believe in targeting women and children just so long as they’re Jewish or Christian.” – Islamic jihadists do not target. They murder indiscriminately by unguided rockets and other means, men and women of any age as well as children of any racial, ethnic or religious group. Considering the mixed demographics of Israel’s population and the people on the aircraft and in the WTC towers on 9/11 is more than enough to establish those facts – not targeting and indiscriminate murder - as truth.
“In a recent Rasmussen Poll … a mere 31% of Democrats favored Israel in the current conflict.” – Given the evidence of the Howard Stern, Zogby/Ziegler interviews, American Civics Literacy Test scores, Dr. Lyle Rossiter’s book about Liberalism as a mental illness, the Walmart Stampeders, the braying jackasses outside the OJ sentencing courtroom, and the obviously Lib Dem ignoramuses posting here are the anti-Israel, Israeli, Jew hatred and pro-Arab, Muslim, Palestinian supporters – those duped by the propaganda of the murderous Islamic jihadists – supposed to be a surprise to us?
“The world’s media rarely if ever remarked about the thousands of missiles Hamas fired into Israel over the past few years.” – I chalk up the majority of media reps as the Lib Dems that they admit they are – right in there with the 31% of other morons.

Satan And Hatred
Satan laughed out loud as he murdered millions in Southern Sudan and Darfur. The world was deaf to his laughter as children died in pain. Satan and his Jew haters are now condemning Jews trying to defend themselves against attacks by Gazian rockets. Jew haters are also asking Satan the killer of a million Christians in Southern Sudan to join them in a new Jew killing crusade. The victory of David over Goliath has to be repeated if the Jews can survive this twin onslaught

The American Liberal -> hater of Good

The American Liberal waits for the day that they have lived for and trained for their entire life - to attack and defeat, America and its citizens.

Joseph was a Bedoin also
Historicaly the sons of Issac lived in what is now Isreal/Palestine. Both are peoples are decended from the same stock of Abraham, Issac, and sons.

Technically the first ethnic cleansing occured when the Isrealites came out of Egypt, and destroyed the Midianites, who lived in that region. Numbers chapter 31

The equation is simple. Hamas stops lobbing missles into Isreal + Isreal stops their ground attack = People stop dying

The UN needs to shut up, and continue doing what they do best, nothing.

God's promises to Israel.
I have studied the Covenant that God made with Abraham. The land holds the promise. Israel cannot just make any land their country. The promise is tied to Abraham's descendants and the land of Canaan. Israel was meant to be a blessing to all of the nations. Of course Christians (Jews and Gentiles) believe that the seed of David has come. Many Jews rejected Him as their Messiah. In the end Israel will be surrounded by their enemies and their enemies will be destroyed by the Messiah, not as a man this time, but as God come down with His heavenly hosts. Not as a sacrificial lamb but for judgement. God has not forgotten Israel.

Bad Place
Burt, per your description,Israel sure is located in a bad neighborhood, bad mistake, I'd move. Americans can't keep paying the $$$ forever and there is no hope in sight for resolution, per your description.

What They Should Do
Human beings, and groups of human beings, can generally be expected to get focused and show their will to live when confronted by danger or death. I should hope that Israel is doing so now with its offensive. It has to know it is truly alone, that America is deserting it regardless of all the empty talk by our rulers of their support.

The smart thing for Israel to do now is open up a major war and force America and the West to take sides, really show which side they're on.

If it once again uses the Bush/McCain war strategy of surrendering when the enemy is defeated, Israel will allow the Muslims time to get stronger while America pulls more of its support, and the rug, out from under Israel's feet. It will then have to give up more land and more security.

And when it is later overrun and all its citizens killed or enslaved, Israel will be left with our UN ambassador's expression of "deep regret" and "outrage".

What happened to "Never Again"?

Speaking of taking sides
it looks like ACORN is getting THEIR come-uppance!

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_60617 3.html

Theft, voter fraud, etc. In other words, typical liberal actions.

incredible
That some socalled "patriotic Americans" would advocate a foreign nation embroiling us in war on its behalf against an "enemy" who never attacked us.

This same nonsense was apparent when Saakoshili of Georgia attempted to manipulate us into a confrontation with Russia, due to his taking seriously the blatherings by Bush that we would stand with the Georgian nation.

It seems some who deem themselves patriotic Americans will not hesitate to cede American sovereignty over to foreign interests intent on having the U.S. do their bidding.

I finally got a Democrat to agree...

Yes, one of my (card-carrying) Liberal Democrat coworkers agreed...

"It won't end until somebody WINS"

And No, my friend did not think Israel should be the Winner (Mainly because his education level is far superior to mine).

I'm pretty certain that PhD's are awarded on the basis of how well one can string (rarely used) words together - to 'A'ffect and confuse the emotions of one's listener.

Burt
"Moreover, let us not forget that in Gaza the people voted for Hamas, a group with a political platform consisting of a single plank: the extermination of Israel."

Great point and one that liberals STRENOUSLY work to avoid!

What should scare the h*ll out of American Jews is that Clueless O aka barack Obama, is a pro-palestinian nimrod.

This time, Israel needs to take the gloves OFF and go for broke.

2spothipshot
"Oh my Lord in Heaven!
Now an author has taken to responding to it. Am I the only one who can discern between a post by a person w/ a legit argument and a post by a mental patient!?! "

Well put, as they say at the zoo ,please dont feed the animals. In this case ignore the trolls

Reality check...
Of all the violence going on in the world at the moment, why does an action by Israel against crazies in the Gaza area gain so much outraged writing and whining by conservative columnists?
The fact must be pointed out again and again -- support or lack thereof for Israel has NOTHING to do with conservatism.
--------------------------
TH posters: Feel free to cut and paste the above onto every thread on the Gaza situation.



Gunny
It was Bush who pressured the Israelis to permit elections in Gaza...in keeping with his blatherings about democracy.

Well the Israelis did permit elections.

Hamas won.

And when Hamas won the elections that Bush himself had insisted upon, Bush threw a temper tantrum and cut off aid to its government.

What a guy, huh.

Which only goes to demonstrate how feckless and incompetent is the current administration policy in the mideast.

I doubt Obama can do any worse.

Moral Equivalence and Proportional Resp
Great article and exactly right. The attempt by the liberal media and liberals in general to give moral equivalence to the terrorists in the world is not surprising however. In order to judge morality, one must have morals, and I have yet to see any evidence to indicate the presence of such in the left-minded. Sorry if that offends anyone, but I can't accept the opinions of anyone who in one breath condemns the "genocide" of the Palestinians and in the next breath lobbies for federally funded and subsidized abortion. There are far too many examples of this type of schizophrenic thought in existence to list, but I see it day after day.

As to the media and UN calling Israel's response to Hamas disproportionate, I close with a quote I came across recently that I think sums it up nicely.

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your tactics suck."

Supporters of Hamas and Gaza
often refer to how occupants of Gaza have to live without freedom of movement. Does no one remember before checkpoints how suicide bombers and a freeflow of armaments to Gaza plagued Israel? Supporters say in defending Gaza, Gaza is compelled to resort to rockets and tunnels in order to carry on their fight against Israel. Following their reasoning, is the US justified in attacking Cuba if they send rockets to Florida?

WHO KNEW
that Jimmy the Dhimmi would be back in spades...

on the side of Hamas and Islamofascism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/0 1/07/AR2009010702645.html

Now I know why Carter abandoned the Shah for the Ayatollah Khomeini so quickly and so easily.

Burt's Burps
"As you may have noticed, the world’s media rarely if ever remarked about the thousands of missiles Hamas fired into Israel over the past few years. "

They mention this all the time, if, they are covering it at all. CNN, did a very good job,and mentioned his all the time, and interviewed the Israeli Ambassador and former IDF generals. Lies are not going to get us anywhere but into deeper holes.

Also, the reaction of people against this slaughter, isn't anti-Israel so much as it is , "What the Hell do they think they're going to achieve?" You can't deny a large population a homeland and blockade them, and starve them, and deprive them a means of living. This fact, is actually the one I have yet to hear on the news. And then , I thinks its 200 children now, slaughter them like ducks in a pond, and not make the world ask, "Do you really think we're going go for this massacre?"

Burt's Facts...

The facts of life for Muslims (Particularly Women) are atrocious. No sane-minded American would accept such ruthless dictatorial rules and limb-chopping sharia laws. Nor would we accept genocide as a source of National pride (Patriotism).

Which begs the questions...

What is it that the Leftist Democrats find so compelling in the Hamas Muslim argument?

Do the Democrat Leftists support Sharia Law?

The Abuse and stoning of women and children?

The Jailing and Stoning of Gays?

The Genocide of the Jewish community?

Do the Leftist Democrats have any morality 'left'?


Where are the liberal feminists?
You'd think that they'd be burning their bra's over their "outrage" over Muslim treatment of woman. But alas they are more worried about loosing their right to abort babies and stalking conservatives.

Taking Sides in the Middles East
This entire issue has nothing to do with Israel per se. It has to do with the idea of Israel and the West. When we talk about "provocation" of the Arab World or the Moslem World we are talking about provoking these folks by our actual existence.

I know the Mid-East very well (both sides) and I continue to maintain that if the Moslem world didn't have Israel and the West it would be in deep trouble by not having anyone to blame for its own depredations.

LW

Left
Has no morality - only narcissism.

A MARINE'S OPINION

A Marine who had recently gotten out the the service and had served in Iraq vehemently agreed with this sentiment:
' I am dismayed by the rhetoric from US politicians and pundits to the effect that “if the US were under rocket attack from Mexico or Canada, we would respond like the Israelis”. This a gross insult to US servicemen; I can assure you that we would NOT respond like the Israelis... Israel has indeed taken a small number of casualties from Hamas rocket fire (about 20 killed since 2001), but we have taken thousands of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, including many civilian personnel. Hundreds of American casualties have occurred due to indirect fire, often from mortars. This is particularly true in or near the Green Zone in Baghdad. This fire often originates from densely populated urban areas.

Americans do not, I repeat DO NOT, respond to that fire indiscriminately. When I say “indiscriminately”, I mean that even if we can precisely identify the source of the fire (which can be very difficult), we do not respond if we know we will cause civilian casualties. We always evaluate the threat to civilians before responding, and in an urban area the threat to civilians is extremely high. If US servicemen violate those rules of engagement and harm civilians, I assure you we do our best to investigate -- and mete out punishment if warranted. There are differing opinions on the conflict in Iraq, but I am proud of the conduct of our servicemen there.

With that in mind, I find the conduct of the Israeli army in Gaza to be brutal and dishonorable, and it is insulting that they and others claim that the US military would behave in the same way. follow similar rules of engagement rings hollow; I see little evidence for this claim I know the Israelis are operating under difficult circumstances, but their claim that theygiven the huge number of civilian casualties they have caused from indirect fire. '

It's the same old "morals"....
"laws" BS that you hear from "conservatives" or excuse me religious/racist nuts. You keep hearing the "laws" argument or "morality" argument for everything, except that laws can be enacted by any powerful majority or minority community in any part of the world. Was it moral to be a Christian and support slavery in big way, especially in the South? Ofcourse, religion in this country like any other part of the world was used to support economic/political causes.

There is a clear distinction between the human rights abuses involving women, minorities etc in the Arab world, and this whole-sale slaugter in Gaza and Lebanese massacre two years ago. Whoever said that, just because you condemn the Israeli behaviour that you approve of what's happening to minorities, people of different faiths in the Arab world, we condemn it unequivocally as well. But, they different things, and two wrongs doesn't make one right, we need to carefully analyze to read the situation and side with where the truth is.

Leo
AMEN!

All it would mean if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow is that the governments in the Muslim world would no longer have their favorite scapegoat to blame for the depredations in their OWN countries brought about by their own misrule. So those governments would have to find a NEW scapegoat. And we all know who THAT would be: Uncle Sam.

At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration. But that time ended centuries ago. Today, the Muslim world is a backwater that NOBODY seeks out anymore: it's become a place where dreams go to die. It's a place people want to ESCAPE FROM, not GO TO. And the Muslims know all this very well, too. These days, their solution to try to re-gain their prominence in the world isn't to elevate their OWN culture to become something that once again draws people seeking inspiration and enlightenment but to try to drag the rest of the world down to their 8th-century level.

Stands
"At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration."

Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic.



jerabaub
"It was Bush who pressured the Israelis to permit elections in Gaza...in keeping with his blatherings about democracy.

Well the Israelis did permit elections.

Hamas won.

And when Hamas won the elections that Bush himself had insisted upon, Bush threw a temper tantrum and cut off aid to its government.

What a guy, huh.

Which only goes to demonstrate how feckless and incompetent is the current administration policy in the mideast.

I doubt Obama can do any worse."



You keep posting this stupidity over and over again. STFU! Having election makes little difference. Those idiots supported Hamas regardless of an election. An election legitimized them which makes them, the people of Gaza, accountable. Bush gave Gaza the chance to do the right thing and they blew it.

I cannot find any sympathy

for the side in this conflict that endorses crucifixion for being a traitor to islam. Monotheism on display as absolute power corrupting absolutely. Hamas is no more than a street gang.




Taft
Everything you post is pure garbage and just plain stupid.

So tell me those 20 lives were not valuable. Tell me they should just let Gaza go on indefinitely and claim more lives. Tell me Israel should just go on indefinitely and let not only property but life be indiscriminately destroyed. Tell me that just because one is Jewish they have absolutely no right to peace in their lifetime ever.

Your an idiot.

Lolo1
" Bush gave Gaza the chance to do the right thing and they blew it."

Its not that simple.

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

When Bush came into office, and I've posted it 3 times now at T.H., his view was to unleash the Israelis and forget peace and negotiations.

""Sometimes a show of strength by one side can really clarify things,” Bush philosophies.

Bush is a bad man.




Standinghisground and Leo
If we had a government with any guts they would just sit down and shut up and let Israel do what they need to do.

Taking Sides in the Middles East
We must never forget that the Moslem world has its own slant on things and it is insulting (to them) to try and bother them with facts. I remember once sitting in a restaurant in Cairo blandly discussing the '73 war with Israel ( this was an otherwise well educated Egyptian). According to all the facts he had, Egypt had actually won that war and had really kicked *** on the Israelis. I didn't even mention the Egyptian 3rd Army debacle where some generals were subsequently executed. And he wasn't curious to hear any facts I had. Its a cse of the blind will not see and the deaf will not listen.

U.S. liberals are curiously like that also.

LW

Taft
""Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."


So? That means Israel learned that you can't buy love but at least they exhausted all possibilities first. Bush is correct, and posting what you think is philosophy without stating what your objection to said philosophy is beyond ridiculous. I also find it absolutely self defeating and beyond stupid that the left of this country espouses they are the party of human rights and yet supports Hamas, and any other hater, that puts human rights at the bottom of their list. You are not only self defeating but your choices show you are self loathing as well.

As to your crank comment...I won't debate with a moral relativist idiot whose is totally unarmed in a battle of wits.

Taft...one other thing...
You remind me of the rioters in Oakland defecating in their own bed.

Taft
"Stands
"At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration."

Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic."



More stupidity from a so called school teacher. The Middle East is not called the cradle of civilization for nothing dumb dumb.

re: Taft 11:02 AM
Another example of a person who does NOT know about World History yet wants to comment on it.

Standshisground's comment is TRUE and Not anti-Semitic. Taft is wrong and Ignorant.

"the Arabs fused the Orient & Hellenistic intellectual legacies in the centres of Islamic civilization(Baghdad,Damascus,Cairo,Mecca, Samarkand) and made the result the basis of an Islamic science which reached its apogee during the 9th & 10th cent. and influenced the Christian West, reaching Europe especially by way of Spain.
Spain experienced a period of great flowering under the Omayyard Dynasty (755-1031)."
Source: Penguin Atlas of World History, Vol.1

A glance at other History books will provide details about how Arabs transmitted Greek philosophy and dramas to Western Europe in the centuries after the Fall of Rome in 476AD and the Dark Ages. European students studied at Arab universities, even Timbuktu in current Mali (West Africa) had a famous university. Western Europe was in the "Dark Ages for centuries (intellectually,politically, and militarily) while Arab Islamic societies were Beacons of Light and knowledge. Western Civilization owes an Intellectual Debt to Arab Islamic civilization for Saving & transmitting ancient (Greek, Roman)knowledge to the West.

Nowadays the direction is reversed with Arab societies being so backward, primitive, and savage. But that does change the historical facts.

So Taft should consult some World History books before exposing his ignorance and prejudice.


Lolo1

I, nor any liberal, has condoned Hamas. Quite frankly, you are just over the top today. You obviously hate the Palestinians, or anyone who would defend them, with blind hate, and that is why I'm angry with Bush. Two sides who hate each other so much, need our influence to try, however we can, to broker peace. Try to have a good day, nothing I say matters, the press in on Israel's side and nothing will change.

Lolo1
Taft said of you, "I won't debate with a crank".

Funny, I take that exact attitude toward HIM!

That's why I'm not going to answer his post to me. Or any OTHER post he makes. I have absolutely no idea what he was saying in his response to me: the "reasoning", if you can call it that, of most liberals is clear only to them. The line by Glen Campbell from the movie True Grit that I quoted to end my 8:25 am post describes how worthwhile it is to debate the vast majority of the trolls who come to TownHall - especially the NEW crop we're now seeing, such as Chloe. That line I quoted from True Grit, in fact, I first used a couple of months ago on Left Angle in responding to a post of his answering his inane belief that I must be getting great satisfaction in believing I had accomplished a great victory for the conservative cause, at a time where supposedly we're starved for victories, by thinking I had clobbered him in debate on this board.

It's not for nothing that other conservatives on this site, when they address his posts, refer to Taft as Daft. In fact, to read his posts lately, it looks like he's been taking classes in the Mario School of Debate.

Regarding YOUR point, I totally agree that the U.S. government should just stand aside and let Israel do what it has to do. One thing that heartens me is that it looks like the Israeli government is standing firm, at least right now, in its determination to finish the job it started, given that it is consistently rejecting cease-fire demands. I get the sense that the Israeli government wants to try to finish the job of eviscerating Hamas' control of Gaza before Obama is sworn in - or at the very least, push it so far along while Bush is still in office that there won't be anything Obama can do to impede it once in office.

So, GO ISRAEL!

Mark
Thanks for your input. This conflict is so old, so long, so convoluted it's difficult for a Catholic girl to come away with as much understanding as I would like in order to be conversant on the subject. But, I have to say, you and Burt have simplified it for me. I hope Israel will finally be ready for the all-out. Take one American liberal, send him/her off to hold the hand of a palestinean (boy that's hard to choke out) and blow them all to kingdom come. God will sort them out. That's His promise.

Being a former grunt......
...with the 101st Airborne Division in Nam (67-68), I can tell anyone that a "disproportionate" response is a wonderful thing when you're in a fight for your life. Can't beat it, better than sliced bread, tasty, inspiring, GRATIFYING, battle-winning, and, well, the absolute right thing to do.

On two occasions during my tour my company was up against a battalion-sized NVA infantry and mortar unit, and we were, quite frankly, getting clobbered. Then we called up a tank; just one. In both cases the tank crews brought armageddon on the bad guys - big time, and then we went in for the kill (literally).

Then there were times we ended up surrounded, high in the mountains. As it happens in battle, things got dicey so we called in some heavy artillery. "Arty", as we grunts referred to that branch, made all things much more than equal. Sorry to be a little gross here, but few things are more gratifying to a foot soldier in a scrap than seeing the enemy's body parts on the ground, and hanging from trees and bushes.

Listening to Democrats and liberals in general is repulsive enough, but when these social hemorrhoids mention "proportionate response" in regard to an enemy, the words "beyond stupid and delusional" come to mind.

Go for the enemy's jugular, Israel, and don't let up!

The pro from dover
God bless you for your service to this country, sir!

A lot of these "social hemorrhoids", if THEY were ever put into the uniform of our country, would probably immediately throw down their weapons and surrender at the mere SIGHT of the enemy. Or run like hell! That is, if they hadn't managed to off themselves beforehand in basic training by shooting themselves in the course to trying to master their own weapons.

.
" "At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration."

Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic."

This is actually true, though it was hundreds of years ago and somewhat irrelevant to the discussion. When Europe was in its Middle Age period, the Middle East flourished, both scholarly and economically. As an example, the only reason we have the Iliad and the Odyssey is because at one time Muslim scholars translated it, and during the Renaissance we translated it back.

Lolo1
You claim that I keep posting "stupidiy", but seem incapable of refuting the points I made.

Which only goes to prove that when you cannot refute an argument, cast aspersions upon the one making it.

If elections make little difference, why then did Bush pressure Israel to permit them in Gaza?

Bush displays an ignorance of the mideast nearly as extensive as yours.

re: Taft 12:21 PM
Addition; in my last sentence "does" should be "does not". (my mistake)

"I know for a fact that you are wrong"

Your response is confused.

You made a historically incorrect comment which I exposed with historical information with Source notation. You also called the other poster's comment "anti-Semitic" which it was not.

So if you have some "historical facts" then present them. Your opinion about history is insufficient. History is based on historical information not just ignorant opinion.

Secondly, what is my "using Nazi logic to condemn a race"? What "race" are you referring to? Jewish race? Arab race? Islamic race?
Sorry to inform you but none of these entities are "Races". Jews and Arabs are both Semitic peoples and considered both to havedescended from Abram(Abraham)thru Isaac and Ishmael.
Source: Old Testament in Bible.

So explain what you mean by "Nazi logic" if you can.

So if you know for a fact that I am wrong then prove it with something more than just your words.

Taft @ 11:57

Taft wrote: "...nothing I (Taft) say matters..."

First thing you have said that I agree with.

Taft
"I, nor any liberal, has condoned Hamas. Quite frankly, you are just over the top today. You obviously hate the Palestinians, or anyone who would defend them, with blind hate, and that is why I'm angry with Bush. Two sides who hate each other so much, need our influence to try, however we can, to broker peace. Try to have a good day, nothing I say matters, the press in on Israel's side and nothing will change."


Last post to you because Standinghisground is totally correct about you and the other libtards, and what happened to not debating a crank anyway?

You are right...I despise terrorists.

Moonkeeper
I had brought up the history of the Islamic world centuries ago, as a place of allure to non-Islamics at one time, simply to provide a little framing of my response to Leo's post of 10:33 am.

But now you see why I didn't answer Taft's response to that. All he did in that response was to show his utter ignorance - which is par for the course for him.

One conservative poster on this site said a few days ago, "Never debate with someone that you first have to educate". Therefore, debating Taft would have been a fool's errand.

jerabaub
What part of stupid do you not understand stupid?

Are you telling me Bush gave teeth to Hamas by having an election? Hamas already had teeth, hence the reason why they won the election! So it made little difference. What he did do was take steps to give the Palestinians a country. Do you understand the what that means both the positive and negative? Apparently not.

As to his temper tantrum...look stupid Hamas was breaking their agreements at mach 5, plus we have a policy in this country about not supporting terrorists. Palestinians made their bed and need to now lie in it.

And what was that aid we gave them last year when they signed the cease fire agreement that they promptly broke? What was and is the aid and food going in there from the UN? Who supports the UN and continues to pay their bills and why do we do so?

We support the UN goober because if we don't they will crumble and all their decisions both good and bad will be no longer legitimized, that includes the formation of Israel. It will cause an all out world war otherwise.

jerabaub...continued
"Bush displays an ignorance of the mideast nearly as extensive as yours."


How many times have you been to the Middle East?

Me, I lived there for three long years!

Et tu?


Your knowledge of the ME is what the Communist News Network tells you.

Taking sides...
Excellent article, as usual, Burt.
As the son of an Iwo Jima, Guam and Bouganville USMC veteran I identify with your comparison to the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland in 1945. My father, still with us thank God, at a feisty age 86, was slated to be in the first wave of Operation Downfall on November 1, 1945. His 3rd Marine Division was to be part of the 5th Amphibious Corps that was to hit Kyushu on X-day. Estimates of American casualties ran as high as 50% and thus I stood a 50-50 chance of not being born had Pres. Truman not made the decision to use our atomic weapons.
Israel needs to "kick a** and take names", world opinion be da*ned...and they'd better do it before January 20th when Obama's brand of "diplomacy above all" becomes U.S. foreign policy.

Standinghisground
"One conservative poster on this site said a few days ago, "Never debate with someone that you first have to educate". Therefore, debating Taft would have been a fool's errand.

I will add that "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!" In other words you cannot educate those that insist on being stuck on stupid. I am tired of the sheer lack of common sense here on TH. Valhalla is absolutely correct in his history but one does not need ancient history to apply common sense and just plain old right and wrong.

Lolo-GunnyG-RGeek-Others
Israel should take WHATEVER steps are necessary to change the name of the place from GAZA to CRATER!

The pro from dover
Well said as always and thank you for your service.

What these self hating liberals want is war without end. In their minds Israel has no right nor claim to any peace ever. Easy for them to say since they don't actually have to live there and deal with it. Makes the Cold War look cheap doesn't it?

If someone were to punch me in the eye, I guarantee I wouldn't simply just give them a proportional response back. As far as Israel goes the response has been proportional since they haven't exactly dropped a nuke on them either.

Georgetwin

"Lolo-GunnyG-RGeek-Others
Israel should take WHATEVER steps are necessary to change the name of the place from GAZA to CRATER!"


I agree.

Standinghisground

Subject: The pro from dover
God bless you for your service to this country, sir!

"A lot of these "social hemorrhoids", if THEY were ever put into the uniform of our country, would probably immediately throw down their weapons and surrender at the mere SIGHT of the enemy. Or run like hell! That is, if they hadn't managed to off themselves beforehand in basic training by shooting themselves in the course to trying to master their own weapons."


These guys would never do such a thing since that job is for the uneducated with no other options to do. Didn't you get John Kerry's memo?

lolo1
You say "Hamas had teeth..which is why they won the election".

So presumably there is support among the Palestinians for Hamas.

Which begs the question as to why Bush would pressure Israel to hold elections in Gaza if the result was a likely victory for a terrorist organization.

Oh, wait a minute, I forgot.

Bush's rhetoric about universality of liberty and freedom was supposed to convince Palestinians to repudiate their decades-old resentment and hostility over what they view as Israeli occupation.

But it appears Bush was mistaken.

And rather than own up to accepting the consequences of his own rhetoric, he punishes the Palestinians by revoking financial assistance because of their exercise in democratic governance(elections)...which he himself advocated.

If I am wrong, explain why.

Lolo1
""Lolo-GunnyG-RGeek-Others
Israel should take WHATEVER steps are necessary to change the name of the place from GAZA to CRATER!"


I agree."

---

You are sick.

Foreigner Agendas !

This is a Foreigners' Fight.United States National Interests trump the National Interests of both these Foreign Parties.

It appears that the lion's share of the mouth fighting here is between Neoconservative Israel apologists and Liberal Palestinian apologists.

Jerabaub’s Mideast Solution Is……
Blame Bush. WOW! What an utterly unique and unheard of solution. You are absolutely an intellectual titan. In liberal circles, I’m sure you are a god among mere mortals.

My wife got her car stuck in the snow today and the reason was not apparent, now it’s clear BUSH.


Burt, Burt, Burt,
"Scum of the world"


I'll attribute those kind of comments to your 61 year old adolecences.

If you try hard someday you might understand.

Lolo1
Actually, regarding the "social hemorrhoids" winding up in the U.S. military, I was thinking in terms of such people being DRAFTED, not enlisting VOLUNTARILY, since that is something liberals rarely do anymore.

The return of the draft, by the way, is anything but a remote possibility once Obama becomes president, since it is his party - led by Charles Rangel - which talks about reviving the draft and ending the volunteer military. If this happens in Obama’s first term, wonder how many of the young voters - especially young MALE voters - who were so gaga for him in 2008 would stick with him in 2012.

Although of course, a lot of these "social hemorrhoids" would probably immediately hot-foot it to Canada or Europe if their draft number were actually called. I was thinking of the ones that for whatever reason would actually wind up reporting for basic training.

You're right about trying to have a discussion with those who insist on being stuck on stupid - which seems to be an ever-increasing proportion of the leftists/liberals we're seeing on TownHall. The undisputed king of being stuck on stupid we see on this board these days HAS to be Mario - and given the competition he has to beat out for THAT distinction, that takes a LOT of doing!

I have nothing whatsoever anymore I'm going to say directly to Mario, Robert (Ranger29), Left Angle, Taft, koolmuse, (although I've NEVER submitted a post directed to him personally), and many others. There ARE liberals (not a lot, admittedly, but a few nonetheless) who come here who can actually make a cogent argument: I notice JMO51 has gotten a lot better in this regard. Even Mod Mark, when he decides to be serious instead of a clown. Libs who at least try to make a reasonable argument for their point of view, even if we disagree with that point of view, should be given the reward from us conservatives of respectful debate. The ones too far gone with BDS are simply best ignored.

Try some intellectual rigor
Taft said:

"valhalla


Let me get this straight, you want me to provide evidence that Muslims..?

'At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration. But that time ended centuries ago.'"

Obviously not, Taft, because that isn't what you said. What you said was this:

"[Stands:]
'At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration.'"

[Taft:]
Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic."

But even that was not what you were being asked to "prove with facts" (not provide evidence for.) This was what you were being asked to back up with facts:

"I know for a fact that you are wrong"

Which was a response to valhalla's references to the Islamic enlightenment period. Valhalla asked for facts, a completely legitimate request, and you accused valhalla of using "Nazi logic." As I recall of "Nazi logic," it was rather tortured and pretty easy to refute. If you really believe what you said, and aren't being merely dishonest and trying to avoid the subject, then give that refutation a try.

One of the best things that could

happen to the world is the elimination of the current middle eastern arab/muslim culture.

Whatever advancements the muslim culture of the middle ages may have provided civilization, the current concepts of the arab/muslim axis is barbaric and evil.

They will remain in their abject misery until they acknowledge the rights of all human beings are equal to their arab/muslim rights.

They are to be pitied for their ignorance and depravities. Prayer may be the only way, short of annihilation, to rescue them from their misery.

If the Palestinians are 'entitled' to
lob missiles into Israel by virtue of their claim to the land - by this same reasoning the US ought not retaliate if Mexico decides to start sending missiles over the Mexico/US border into California, Arizona, and New Mexico.

They wouldn't try Texas because Texans would take matters into their own hands and 'motivate' Mexico to cease and desist.

Yeah... that makes sense...

Ahenobarbarbus


If you want to mark me as "dishonest" that's your right.

Israel should kill members of

Hamas until they agree to an unconditional surrender. Of course, I realize that this means they will have to kill all of them, but the world will be a better place without people who think and act like Hamas' leaders and proponents.

lepanto
Did I say I only blamed Bush?

The mess in the mideast existed before Bush was president, and will exist after he leaves office.

The discussion I was having was in reference to the elections in Gaza which heralded victory for Hamas.

And Bush did bring pressure to hold such elections.

He should be man enough to accept the consequences of the actions he advocated...instead of punishing a group of people who exercised the very activity he himself advocated.

.




I'm For Israel
Anyone with an ounce of brains or historical knowledge understands that Israel is correct in its battle against Hamas. The Palestinians have no legitimate clain to the state of Israel. They are the ones provoking this. Israel has the right, no the obligation to stike back.

I really don't give a crap about international opinion, U. S. citizen opinion, and certainly not the corrupt and incompetent United Nations regarding this.

No, I am not a Jew. I am an American Christian of Armenian descent.

Taft,

if you prefer the current situation, there is nothing for anyone to do since doing nothing ensures the continuation of the current situation.

You may find something redeeming in a culture that believes in using their women and children as propaganda props. I do not.

I think your mistake is in not realizing that if you cut off the head the snake dies. That is what Israel is trying to accomplish now.

I personally believe there are workable solutions to the problems of the middle east if the civilized world were willing to implement them. However, the parochialisms of western europe, china, russia, the U.S.A. and India are currently preventing any solution.

A united front by the above five parties could end this overnight. Sadly, such union will most likely require an act of God.

Taft,

are you saying the culture of the aboriginal Americans should have won out over western culture?

Standinghisground
Responses do no very little good - I think that they come here just to yank chains, or because there is no intelligence displayed in the Huff'n'puff sites. The latter is the best compliment that I can give.

At some point, we have to ignore them or laugh at them. I will chose the latter in the next few posts.

jerebaub
Some of the conservatives on this board undoubtedly consider YOU one of those "stuck on stupid", but for now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not at that stage yet.

Regarding what you said about Bush and his "responsibility" for the actions that Hamas is engaged in right now:

Just because a range of choices is allowed doesn't mean there's an obligation of acceptance of ANY AND ALL choices therefore made as equally good and acceptable or of moral culpability for bad choices made.

In America, a person is allowed to choose the type of work he wishes to make a living by. Does that mean, therefore, that if a person chooses to make his living by committing armed robberies, our society is obligated to accept that choice with as equal affirmation or value as those who choose to make their living being accountants? And does that mean therefore that our society, and all of us who are a part of it, are morally culpable for the fact that some people in this society choose to make their living by criminal means?

I think Bush was right to press for the Palestinians to be able to have the same right to vote for their own leaders as we do. He gave the Palestinians an opportunity to take direct responsibility for their betterment. The fact that they didn't is THEIR fault, not his. All that the present conflict since Israel withdrew from Gaza has shown is that the Palestinians at present are incapable of forming a functional self-governing society. Who's responsible for THAT? Not Bush.

jerabaub: Don't Worry
President Elect Obama is appointing that Intelligence giant Leon Panetta to head up the CIA. I’m sure Hamas, Hezbollah and all the other assorted bad guys are disbanding out of sheer fright.

Seriously, I don’t believe it will be very long into the Obama Presidency when we find out what a great job President Bush did in keeping us safe post 9/11. That includes his handling of the Middle East.


Dodging the Issue
Taft said:

"Subject: Ahenobarbarbus

If you want to mark me as "dishonest" that's your right."

That's your entire response? Consider it done.

Oh Taft...
That's all I can EVER say in response to your inanities.
Burt, I agree with you. I kind of wish you were an observant Jew, because as a Christian I too believe God's promise regarding the Jews. I believe he will curse those who are trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and I relish the thought. Meanwhile, here on earth, I say GO ISRAEL, take them all out if that's what needs to happen for you to be safe. There is no hope for the ME ever changing and becoming decent HUMAN BEINGS. They will never, as Golda Meir said, "love their children more than they hate Jews." So there isn't much left to do about them, is there? Other than what Israel is doing and must continue to do until the war is won.

Tafty Duck

Tafty Duck

The was an old poster named Taft,
Thought to be exceedingly daft.
He runs fore and aft,
In his left-listing craft,
Not noticing the broken shaft.

Tafty Duck


Tafty Duck

The was an old poster named Taft,
Thought to be exceedingly daft.
He runs fore and aft,
In his left-listing craft,
Not noticing the broken shaft.

The Cardboard Mind

The Cardboard Mind

A leftist who calls himself Mario,
Has a mind that comes straight from the barrio.
He tries to incite us,
With pearls of detritus ~
We obviously judge them hilario.

Back to taking sides.
If Toronto Canada was lobbing missles into Buffalo New York, what percentage of Democrats would side with the Canadians? Siding with Hammas is just a variation on the theme "Hate America First".

Taft
1. The Israeli attacks have been very specific. They have hit, almost with no exceptions, the targets they were after.

2. Several unbiased reporters on the ground have discovered that many of the dead civilians were not killed by Israeli fire. They were supporters of Fatah who were killed by Hamas. The majority of reporters mistakenly blamed Israeli air-strikes for the civilian deaths.

jerebaub
You say that Bush is upset that the citizens of Gaza elected Hamas after he pushed for free elections.

What is your problem with that? Do we stop helping nations achieve democracy because we are afraid they will elect someone we don't like?

We always take that chance.

In 1781, the British did not believe the Americans could survive as a country, electing their own leaders. So far, we have proven them wrong.

Husker2

What news source is reporting this?

Who really wants peace
Israel should not stop its operations in Gaza until the leaders of Hamas publicly recognize Israel’s right to exist and apologize for the rocket attack.

And it is insane for the Palestinians, to expect Israel to abandon the settlements on the west bank, after all the historical violence that Palestinians have perpetrate on Israel. After all these years, the Palestinians are going to have to be satisfied with a gradual Israeli pullout, as they(Palestinians) prove they can live in peace, with Israel. The March 2008 Israeli pullout from Gaza was a golden opportunity for the Palestinians to do this, but they said no to peace and launched rockets.

So until the Muslims of the region become more tolerant of other religions, and consider the Jewish state and people, as family, there will never be peace in the Middle-east.

I know Israel wants peace, because I have seen Israel give land to Egypt for peace. I have seen Israel negotiate peace with Jordan. I have seen Israel give back the Gaza strip. What have the Palestinians given or done for peace?????

Husker2

How democratic was the election and what choice did the Palestinians have. Fatah was corrupt and was falling apart. In any event Hamas, won by a narrow margin. As noted earlier, too, their was a lot of Israeli involvement in the creation of Hamas. Elections in a civil war are always messy.

none
"Top Israeli Officer Says Tactics Are Backfiring
By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, October 31, 2003; Page A01


JERUSALEM, Oct. 30 -- Israel's senior military commander told columnists for three leading newspapers this week that Israel's military tactics against the Palestinian population were too repressive and were fomenting explosive levels of "hatred and terrorism" that might become impossible to control."



Hypocrisy
Where have all you wailing libs been while Hamas and Hezbollah sent thousands of rockets, bombs, and grenades into Israel over the past 10 years or so? Nothing but silence. The Israelis shoot back and the whole world condemns them. I call that hypocrisy.

The Israelis should take back Gaza and the Golan Heights and drive out every last Palestian. They will probably still not have peace but there borders can be better defended.

The savages on the planet.....
...always seem to have someone who will speak in their behalf, or to demand others to treat their clients fairly as the latter goes about killing others. They're lobbyists for savages.

Today's lobbyists for muslim savages are demanding a "proportional" response from Israel. What a case study in psychosis.

Imagine the thought processes of these national and international liberal mouthpieces:

"Yes, Israel, you've been attacked for years without regard to specific military targets, and your non-combatants are killed regularly because your country is getting rocketed at random, but you must not respond to these attacks in a fair and balanced way".

When black savages in America exercise their perceived right to riot because a black thug was killed by police, or when a jury decision doesn't go the way they demand it must, the lobbyists for the savages come out in force demanding that the rioters not be harmed in any serious, let alone lethal, way. Heaven forbid a cop shoots one of them while he or she is killing someone or destroying their neighborhood.

From what planet do these chaos junkies emmigrate? Who spawns these mentally ill, inbred bottom-feeders in fancy clothes who speak for the savages?

Then again, why do so many take them seriously or even publish their comments?


Burt, A Question
Burt I see you answered one of Robert's posts.I sometimes sink that low myself. So I understand.

Why do we at a conservative site have to contend with people who have only one thing in mind : agitation? Robert is one of the worst. He has changed monikers as many as two dozen times to keep from being deleted.

Now to the subject at hand,I heard a newscast on CBS this afternoon and they were telling about the rockets raining on Hamas in Gaza. Also,how many had been killed. Then almost as an afterthought,they told about the rockets that had fallen on the Israeli's.

The MSM has made their choice of who is right and who is wrong. Just as they have between the Republicans and Democrats.

A man in my church said many years that the Bible says God would look favorable on America as long as we protect Israel. I always remember that statement.

Taft
I know this is long:

Several papers, including The New York Times and The Washington Post, have reported that among the “civilian dead” in Gaza in recent days are Fatah supporters executed by Hamas in hospitals, schools and other locations. (Unsurprisingly anti-Israel media in Britain, France and elsewhere have misled readers and viewers to believe they are part of a death toll Israel is responsible for.)

For example, here buried in one Washington Post report from Gaza is the following: “On Sunday, doctors said, men believed to be Hamas fighters grabbed a patient, accusing him of being an Israeli collaborator. The gunmen shot him dead. ‘They took revenge,’ Khalaf said.”

And this New York Times report, for instance, mentions Hamas killed six people in one Gaza hospital alone in a 24-hour period:

“Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way. In the fourth-floor orthopaedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head. Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel.” (This is catch-all excuse Hamas uses to justify the murder of all those who dare voice public criticism of it.)

Khaled Abu Toameh, chief Palestinian correspondent for The Jerusalem Post, who is himself a Palestinian ... and who has excellent sources in Gaza, reports that on Saturday and Sunday alone, Hamas executed 35 Fatah activists and shot around another 75 in the legs. Others had their hands broken or were placed under house arrest.

Democracy

More thoughts on Hamas.

"Hamas must derive enormous encouragement from our vacillation. We set conditions; Hamas rejects them and continues to practice its "resistance"; so we drop our conditions in the name of some strategic master plan (e.g., "democracy," the "peace process"). This happened during the Bush administration, when Hamas was allowed to run in Palestinian elections without meeting any of the conditions of an earlier Israeli-Palestinian agreement, which banned "any candidates, parties or coalitions... [that] commit or advocate racism or pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or nondemocratic means." Hamas came into elections strutting guns and preaching incitement—and won. Why should they drop any of their cherished principles, when they see their adversaries seriously thinking about dropping their own? We insist that they reconcile with the PA. What if they don't? Why shouldn't they imagine we'll eventually dump that condition too? "


.

Taft
You wrote: "How democratic was the election and what choice did the Palestinians have. Fatah was corrupt and was falling apart. In any event Hamas, won by a narrow margin. As noted earlier, too, their was a lot of Israeli involvement in the creation of Hamas. Elections in a civil war are always messy."

And your point is?

Do we deny the citizens of Gaza the right to vote because we are afraid of who might win?

Because we encourage free elections (even though they are messy), are we required to support, with our money, the winners?

Hamas
Another writer on Townhall had the perfect description of Hamas. I find it hard to believe that there are peace-loving, freedom-loving Americans who support this group:

"Hamas, one of the most virulently nonintellectual, illiberal, bellicose, misogynistic, hateful and violent brand of religious fanaticism on earth."

(I know, I know, many will say they don't support Hamas; they are just against Israel's crushing onslaught. The question then is, "Just how is Hamas to be stopped?")

Husker2

What a hell hole! Thanks for that post.

The civilian death toll, obviously won't be sorted out for some time. The largest number of civilian causalities though, are from the IDF.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/09/2462040.htm

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/960338.html

Husker2
There are laws that are made that are good, like the one listed in a previous post, that said, a party like Hamsas, shouldn't be allowed to run. Israeli leaders and Fatah leaders were against letting Hams run. How to get rid of them, I don't know, but I'm pretty certain, killing so many people, and destroying so much of their homeland, will lead to even more hate, as related in another earlier post, (by Israeli commanders). I mention Northern Ireland, as an example, and got my head chewed off.

Lastly, I hope we can debate civilly, like this, as I am a very big Husker fan.

What Americans don't like to think
Most Americans don't like to think that war can be permanent. Most of us believe that wars begin, are fought, won, and end. That is not the experience of Israel. From its very beginning, Israel has been the object of war, the target of its Arab neighbors who have not, and, as far as I can see, will not acknowledge ISrael's right to exist. What will satisfy the defenders of Hamas and the Palestinians is nothing less than the destruction of Israel and the Jews with it. Any time Israel has tried to generate peace by tradiing land for a diminution of hostilities, the results have been fatal to Israelis.

I am a liberal academic and know many people in my world who really believe that if Israel yields enough land and ceases to be a Jewish state, peace will result. The peace that will result will be the peace of the grave, for these mesasures would mean the destruction of Israel.

I have Israeli friends who have lived with the hatred and violence of the surrounding Arab world all of their lives. It is an experience few Americans can really grasp. Long before the intifadas, a late Israeli friend of mine would tell me about raising her children within range of enemy bombs and mortars, keeping her weapons handy. That is the life the enemies of Israel have imposed on Israel. This action against Hamas is necessary, although it is only one round in the never-ending conflict.

Punchin' Themselves Out !

It's a rough neighborhood,where one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

United States National Interests in The ME supersede those of either The Israelis or The Palestinians.




Taft
You and I agree on that point: "What a hell hole."

As always, innocent people caught in the crossfire suffer.

Gestell
Thank you for your comment.

I believe this may be the first time I have read one of your posts with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Complaint
Once again, I voice my objection to the removal of certain posts.

Reading the first comments on this article, I again see that many posts have been deleted.

Unless a post contains vulgarity or is in some way threatening, I don't feel it should be removed. (Trolls or not)

On many liberal sites, including the kos and huff, all or most conservative writers are routinely removed. Townhall needs to stay above that.

Gestell

A respectable view, but, isn't it myopic?

.

Hmmm - one twice, the third not at all?
.

The Mangled One


The Mangled One

A lib by the name of Left Angle,
Doth brag on the cant of his dangle.
He talks himself silly,
And just like Slick Willie,
His tap has been crushed by the mangle.

Conflict between Israel and Hamas
I agree 100% with your article about the conflict between Israel and Hamas. I am a 100% practicing Catholic and I thank God Israel is where she is. I'm old enough to remember when Israel won their war for independence. When the arabs controlled Jerusalem no one but the arabs could worship there. When Israel controlled Jerusalem, Israel allowed every religion including the muslims to worship.
Another point you mentioned was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How, today 'americans' complain that we shouldn't have done that terrible deed. Well, on the day President Truman authorized the bombing, I was on a troop transport headed for the invasion of Japan. I know because when the bomb was dropped and
Japan surrebdered, the captain of our troop transport opened his orders and told the servicemen aboard the news. I thank God that the bomb was dropped. Not only I but millions of Japanese were saved that day. We didn't have 'disproportional' war then.

Husker2 and Gestell
Husker2:

Regarding your 5:43 pm post:

AMEN!

I feel the exact same way. I have NEVER flagged a post no matter how far down toward the bottom of the barrel in terms of taste or content it scrapes. You're right: censorship is the hallmark of LIBERAL websites; I've actually seen posts in the last couple of months on this site from LIBERALS lamenting the lack of serious discussion on leftist sites (in fact, Gestell himself just posted such a lament the other day on another thread). And I'll be darned if I'M going to become just like what we decry.

As another conservative poster to this site said on this same subject a few months ago in voicing your sentiment that we should allow even the most vulgar of leftist trolls to be heard on this site, which took the words right out of my mouth, we should let the world see in unmistakable starkness in these posts EXACTLY what kind of people constitute today's Democratic Party - and the outrageous posts of the trolls serve as a garish warning that screams "THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON LIBERALISM!"

Gestell:

I second Husker2's sentiments regarding your 5:29 pm post - although I won't go so far as to say that, for me personally, it is only the FIRST time I feel I can wholeheartedly agree with one of your posts.

See, we conservatives aren't all the mindless, nasty, subhuman creatures so many of the trolls (starting with Mario) have convinced themselves, and constantly tell the world on this site, we are. Submit something on this site that shows some effort at serious thinking or at least a genuine desire for real debate and not merely an on-line food fight, even if we disagree with it, and we'll acknowledge it.

Stands
Ignores my posts now, but, his last post was b.s. I made the point, that to say all Muslims were practically neanderthals was basically racist. It seems to be a common ideology.

WOW Burt
"...One of the young sailors who was in the South Pacific at the time, on his way to the planned invasion,...Perhaps the reason that Joe X Price got to live those additional 63 years was because when it really counted, America didn’t overly concern itself with collateral damage..."

We always concerned ourselves with collateral damage that is part of the reason we went to daylight bombing. Look, Israel has practised assasination, needless invasion, allowed massacres of innocents all to get rid of Palistanians; it didn't work. Hamas cannot be eliminated by military means. Want to eliminate Hamas? Then treat the Palistinians with respect and justice. Make no mistake, I do not in any fashion support HAMAS, a pox on both their houses. But I am tired of paying for Israel's wars etc they are like the conservatives' "welfare mom" and keep coming back for more and more welfare, enough

Taft you are very wrong
"Date: Jan 9, 2009 - 6:17 PM EST Stands
Ignores my posts now, but, his last post was b.s. I made the point, that to say all Muslims were practically neanderthals was basically racist. It seems to be a common ideology. "

It is NOT "basically racist"; it is racist. These folks just seemed full of hate and minus brains. If we want to defeat these terrorists, Israel's failed tactics against Hezbohalla and Hamas making those folks stronger are hardly a successful example. Perhaps we should be asking the UK how the brought peace to Northern Ireland?

10 years to go
The truth of the matter is that whether you like it or not, this country cannot afford to continue to support Israel, Europe, Korea, Taiwan, Darfur, or any other place where unjustice is being dished out in the world. Furthermore, we don't have the will to support these causes. Just look at how the public turned on Bush as soon as Iraq turned out not to be a cakewalk.

That's the way the wind is blowing, that's the way our country is going. Little guys like Israel and Taiwan will go first. Then, once the bad guys smell blood, Eastern Europe, South America. Finally, Mexico and our Southern border.

Israel is the canary in the tunnel, and I'm afraid they are not going to last another 10 years.

Words have meaning
We have let others define the word "Palestinian". The original land before Israel became a state was called Palestine for many years. Those who call themselves Palestinaians and agitate for a Palestinian state would have had to find other ways if we hadn't let them usurp the title.

The Israelis would have been able to say "We are Palestine" and the agitators would have to have chosen another name with less political clout.

The agitators are the Arab nations who are fomenting the conflicts by supporting the torrorists. It is necessary for them to maintain the unrest to keep the mis-named "refugee" populations occupied with some enemy other than the local oppressors who are keeping them down and poor.

Rich D,Words Do Have Meaning !

That would be like Jewish Agendists usurping the term "anti-Semite" ?

Hal Donahue
I'm glad you've decided to jump in here, since you and I still have a little unfinished business.

It's regarding the question I asked you the other day that you dodged as a "trick question". All right, I'll try to add enough clarification to allow you to give me an unequivocal "yes" or "no".

You said that the World Court in The Hague couldn't try to exercise jurisdiction over a matter for which the person it wanted to indict had already been tried for in his own country, which is why you said you opposed Bush's impeachment, as according to you it would have eviscerated the World Court's option to try him for whatever crimes it may have believed him guilty of (I presume because you'd be arguing that this would constitute "double jeopardy").

All right, then: let's assume the Obama Administration itself declines to indict and put on trial in the United States for war (or any other) crimes the top generals (such as Ricardo Sanchez and David Petraus) who have lead America's war effort in Iraq and Afghanistan under George Bush in connection with that war effort, yet the World Court decides that the actions those generals undertook DID constitute war crimes and issued indictments of them for same.

My question to you (again) is this: since the forcible extradition by the Obama Administration of George Bush to The Hague were the World Court to issue an indictment against him for war crimes is totally acceptable to you, were the World Court to issue the same indictment against said generals above, would you have an objection to said generals likewise being forcibly extradicted to The Hague by the Obama Administration?

Hal Donahue Strikes Again
Probably one of the most inane comments on Townhall today:

"Want to eliminate Hamas? Then treat the Palistinians with respect and justice."

There we are! Just talk to them! Be nice to them! "Why don't we all just try to get along!"

Mr. Donahue, please read Gestell's comment above, post #134. As experienced as you are in the military, you might learn something.

Where, oh where

has Mule Cooz gone? Musta been a vermin sweep on the streets of Berkeley.

Husker2
Hal Donahue has had so many inane comments over the months - and with so many inane comments on all the different threads on TownHall today from the full complement of leftist dim bulbs - that they're all just kind of starting to blend into one another and are almost impossible anymore to separate.

Hey Standhisground! You are
on "all fours" with your comments about "the pride of Scranton, PA" and his merry flock of "walkin'eagles". It's getting to the point that it's hard to distinguish between the leftist dim bulbs. The "pride" especially never makes any sense with his inane and mindless drivel. Too many tumbles from the many bar stools in the Scranton watering holes.

De ole Korean War Vet

Why?
Only 31% of Democrats support Israel and Jews generally vote for them.

Jews were disarmed and almost exterminated in Nazi Germany, and Jews generally support gun control.

Jews are astute business persons and generally vote for government monopoly welfare.

Jews are a frequently oppressed minority but they generally support the recently popular concept of a democracy (mob rule) over the constitutional republic (government of laws) mandated in Article 4, Section 4.

Jews have a rich heritage but support government monopoly indoctrination of their children over the freedom of choice offered by vouchers.

Jews are bright, but they somehow perceive a distinction between left wing tyrants like Stalin and right wing tyrants like Hitler.


Husker2 & Hal
To answer your question, Hal expects the world to reach the state of total "koobayaism" if we just talk to them.

Don't give ol' Hal too much credit, either. He is poseur of the first order, and would have had to live 10 lives to do all the things he has told this forum.

Re: Taft's original post
"At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightment and inspiration." [Stands]
"Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic."
[Taft]
------------------------------------------
"Standshisground's comment is TRUE and Not anti-Semitic. Taft is wrong and ignorant." Historical information to suport my assertion.
[Valhalla]

"I know for a fact you [Valhalla] are wrong, but what's more insidious, is your using Nazi logic, to condemn a race." [Taft]

"You made a historically incorrect statement which I exposed with Source notation. So if you have some "historical facts", then present them."[Valhalla]

"you want me to provide evidence that Muslims..?
'At one time in world history the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration. But that time ended centuries ago.'
The request strikes me as demeaning, and I said as Nazi logic. I won't justify it with proof because the question it self is wrong." [Taft]

So there it is. Taft said Stands' statement was untrue and anti-Semitic.
I said Stands was correct and Taft was wrong.
Taft said I was wrong, I was using Nazi logic, refused my request for historical information to support his accusation against Stands and said that the question was wrong. Taft did not provide any historical information to support his original statement & tried to shift the focus to my so-called "Nazi logic". He relied on an ad hominem attack and emotional language (Nazi, demeaning request, wrong question) in trying to shift the focus to me.

As someone mentioned, it is difficult to debate with soimeone you must first educate. This is a Prime Example of a Liberal attempt at debate.

valhalla
Actually, I was the one who mentioned that it is difficult to debate with someone you must first educate - although to give credit where credit is due, I was merely quoting another conservative poster who posted that nugget of wisdom within the last couple of days.

You're right, the exchange you've had with Taft IS a prime example of a liberal attempt at debate.

And your exchange shows why I refuse to address Taft directly. And a whole bunch of the other trolls just like him, some of whom I named earlier. How are you going to be able to have an intelligent debate with people who are "stuck on stupid" - and insist on REMAINING stuck there?

I think a lot of liberals have decided that everything they need to know in life, they learned in their dumbed-down public school education. And whatever they need to know in the future to fill in any gaps, they'll leave to their liberal information feeders to supply - without investigating anything on their own.

One of the things I find most amusing about these trolls is that they perfectly exemplify the principle of projection: assuming about others what is actually true about yourself. But like a beast of the field totally oblivious to its own stink, they are also totally oblivious to the fact that all the ugliness they shower upon conservatives they are drawing from their OWN wells.

Hal Donahue scribbles
""Want to eliminate Hamas? Then treat the Palistinians with respect and justice

Yea your logic is absolutely brilliant. Treat the same fanatics would love to kill you with respect and justice. Your a piece of work. Your ignorance of human nature is beyond recourse. BTW- Hamas stands for
Hide Among Mosques And Schools

sheepdog
Let's hope the liberals don't manage to totally wreck the state of Pennsylvania the way they have so many OTHER blue states. Otherwise, one day Hal Donahue may decide to relocate to Utah.

Yeah, I'm sure his reaction to that thought would be, "I'll settle in such a medieval enclave about two days after it can be determined that hell has frozen over". I'll bet all the Californians who have beat tracks for Utah in the last several years were also saying the same thing, too - right up to the day that "medieval" Utah suddenly looked better to them than "progressive" California.

One thing for sure.

If Palestians don't want to be attacked, all they have to do is stop attacking Israel.

The pattern of the Palestian leadership is refusal to abide by agreements. Making an agreement with a liar is no agreement at all.

Since this pattern of lying is embedded in the culture, one can only conclude that for some reason, Palestinians believe the Koran teaches lying.

Col.
What makes you think that all the civilians in Gaza, believe in the Koran, or believe that its ok to lie? The Jewish religion believes its ok to lie too. There are also many Christians in Gaza.

ONLY TWO ULTIMATE SOLUTIONS
The conflict between the Israelis and the Islamists will end only when they all become Christian or when one or the other of them is annihilated. There is no possible way to honestly negotiate peace between the two. The Islamists have proven many times over many years that their insanely irrational hatred renders them totally incapable of honorably keeping a treaty or agreement with Israel.

Until Israel faces up to that basic, fundamental reality about these people and exterminates all of them without mercy, the Israelis will never be able to dwell peacefully in the land God gave them thousands of years ago.

Israel should do to the wicked Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere what Jehovah God, the God of love, ordered the ancient Hebrews to do to the incredibly depraved Canaanites after they crossed the Jordan into Canaan. Had they obediently followed God's orders then, they might not have to do the same thing now in a far more dangerous age, world opinion be damned. Long term, it is the only real solution.

Read about it in the Old Testament. You might be amazed.

Colin
"There is no possible way to honestly negotiate peace between the two. The Islamists have proven many times over many years that their insanely irrational hatred renders them totally incapable of honorably keeping a treaty or agreement with Israel. "

What about Oslo? They both have "insane hatred."

ANSWER TO TAFT
Hamas, the political organization in control of Gaza, has never accepted the Oslo Accords, nor has it accepted Israel's right to exist because exterminating Israel is in its constitution.

The Israelis have no great love for the Palestinians, however, they could live with them were they to refrain from shooting rockets into Israel continually as they have done for the last five years or so. It is well beyond my comprehension to understand why Israel waited so long to retaliate. I would have obliterated them after the first of 10,000 rockets.

By their own admission, the Arabic people live by irrational hatred. When they have no one else to hate, they hate and try to slaughter themselves--different Islamic sects, different tribes and even members of their own families are often targets of their insane, irrational hatred. This leads me to believe that there is a strong demonic element to their form of insanity.

The Israelis, on the other hand, are very peaceful by comparison. They just want to get along with their neighbors without conflict. Their military apparatus is entirely defensive in purpose while the Arabs are entirely offensive in the way they use theirs.

The Palestinians seem to have one supreme goal in life and that is to utterly destroy Israel by any means and murder every single Jew in the entire world. It all makes one wonder why each and every peaceful little Jew is such a terrible threat to those sub human slime.

Another Reality Check
Let's pretend Hamas was in Canada, and they were set out to bomb specific areas along the Michigan border...

What would the US military do? They would evacuate all civilians from the area, bring them to safety and out of harms reach in order to counter strike. We would avoid having innocent US civilians being caught in the middle of the attacks.

Hamas, as we can clearly see, chose to nestle themselves amongst their civilian populations on purpose and for one purpose: To gain sympathy around the world from those morally challenged idiots who believe that Israel should not exist. They love the fact people cry out for the children and the women who get killed by the Israeli's as collateral damage.

If Hamas truly cared about the survival of their people, and wished to live happily and in peace and thrive, they would protect their civilians as we would and as the Israeli's do.

Their only purpose is to destroy Israel, kill every Jew in their wake, and forcibly hide behind civilian shields in hopes that the so-called innocent deaths will turn the world against Israel.

Hamas, Hezbollah and any Islamic radicals are low life barbaric murdering souless animals. They need to be destroyed, and not for Israel's sake, but for the world's sake as well. If you think they will stop at Israel, you are also an idiot. Let Israel do the job they are capable and morally right to do. They are doing us all a favor and your children's children.

Lobbyists for savages...
...have always been with us, and they rise to positions of authority in all free countries.
Read the following short article from David Horowitz's website, frontpagemag, and you'll get an idea of the perfect sociopath's "work".

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=E9B793B E-9D2F-480F-B413-441B65AE22CE

That someone can criticize Israel for FINALLY defending itself is beyond belief. Then again, there have always been sociopaths among us.

berts article
bert you are dead on right. Women are treated beneath dignity in islam, problem is most of us think terrorists are the problem. I think differently. Islam has hijacked and embraced terror. Who voted Hamass into power? Not americans or Israelis? Who put up with the corrupt Yes sir your a fart all those years? Who started the crusades? Who invaded the Eastern Roman empire? who were the barbary pirates? Who attacked Israel in 1948? in 1967? Islam is the problem. Over 2/3 of all moslems in the USA support the IMPOSITION of SHARIA LAW. Even COMMUNISM isnt that blatant. Personally, we should throw every Moslem out of the USA and not allow moslem immigration. Moslems have historically used immigration as a form of INVASION. They dont invade with traditional armies. Rather, they emigrate in small numbers, have large families and demand changes from the inside. Just look at Europe today. Even some of our own cities, like Minn-StPaul, have essentially been taken over by ISLAMIC SUPREMACISTS(i.e. Kieth Ellison). Time to stop calling them TERRORISTS AND START CALLING THEM SUPREMACISTS. Thats what they are.

...........................
------ "Want to eliminate Hamas? Then treat the Palistinians with respect and justice."……….Senile Hal-------

Hal, it’s this type of pollyannaish naiveté that has brought us to this point. I would like you to read the following quotes from palestinian and arab mainstream voices and comment on them……………

“We are waging this cruel war with the brothers of the monkeys and pigs, the Jews and the sons of Zion The Jews will fight you and you will subjugate them. Until the Jew will stand behind the tree and rock. And the tree and rock will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”........— Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi/Palestine Authority TV

"We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relived of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew."..........Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris Palestinian Authority (PA) TV.

“Hamas will keep its weapons in its hands and will defend any part of the homeland....Our national problem is not related only to the West Bank, Gaza, and al-Quds...but to Palestine, all [the territory of] Palestine.”.......-Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar
al-Hayat al-Jadida

One thing for sure.

Conservatives support Israel. (A Democracy)

Liberals support Hamas. (A facist Political Party.)

Israel
Burt,

Another great essay. It amazes me how anyone can actually take the side of terrorist organizations and radical Islam over a democracy like Israel. It's par for the course for academia, the media and liberals in general to side with the Palestinians.

However, why would Jews continue to vote for democrats? It's the Christian conservatives who back Israel!

To Burt
Amen, Brother!

Like minded people stick together
Not all protesters and professors who side with Hamas are foreigners, a lot are Americans. The fact that they are Americans means nothing to them. They are all linked by ideology and a hatred for Israel. Many Americans who hate Israel have never been there, but the collective mind to see Israel destroyed is strong no matter where they live. If the death and destruction caused by Hamas seems like it's overlooked by their supporters, thats because it is. No matter where like minded people live they will always show support for the collective mind. Which is the destruction of Israel. Example of this can be seen every time Hamas attacks Israel. Israel retaliates and Hamas is the victim. Humanitarian efforts whitewashes everything Hamas did and condemns Israel. It's not a matter of taking sides based on if Israel is good or bad. Or if anyone can see Hamas is just a terrorist organization who uses the legitimacy of the United Nations to condemn Israel. It's about like minded people who are stuck where they are born and regardless of knowing right from wrong, will always side with the collective mind based on their ideology.

Re: Husker2
Its kinda surreal to be reading replies to my post ... but ...there's no post! Its been removed.

Since when is quoting lines from a poem by Rudyard Kipling, Nobel Prize winner for Literature in 1907 deemed to be offensive.

The English poet is well known for his poem "The White Man's Burden"
which I quoted.

Its been around for 110 years now and is a classic in the annals of colonialist and neo-colonialist writing.

But TH finds it offensive!

THANK YOU BURT!
Thanks to you Burt, for putting it so clearly.

Maybe the Left-wingers will realize how silly they sound defending murderers whose very written oaths (their s0-called constitution) include the genocide of every Jew, American and Westerner who does not agree with thier sick religion.

Rowdy Boots

Rowdy
Yeah, that's exactly what the situation calls for...an objective observer such as Burt.

Maybe ole Burt could tell us exactly what Israel has ever done for our nation, the United States of America and why we owe anything to Israel.

Or, absent finding anything on that front, perhaps Burt could at least tell us why Israel was so harshly punished for what they intentionally did to the USS Liberty.

Wow
Your grandfather would have loved you with all his heart. Perhaps, you are the one who knows how the Beis Din Shamala will adjudicate your your choices.

It's sad that you would rather defame your grandfather than admit to a reckless use of a Jewish Neshamah.

Heart breakingly sad.

Be constructive!
Maybe if both sides were less eager to blame and point fingers ate the enemy, this ridiculous conflict would be finally resolved! Palestinians need to realize that Israels is here to stay and they need to accept that there will be no return to the pre-1948 borders; further, they need to cease with the attacks on the Israel proper and move on.
On the other hand, Israel needs to allow the Palestinians to organize into their own state, because until that happens, there will be no peace. I am not talking about piecemeal solutions a la Bantustans in South Africa, but full blown statehood without walls, blockades and such oppressive means.
The biggest risk Israel faces is not crude weaponry Palestinians have, but the demographic trends: if Palestinians abandon their drive for 2 states solution and start working on their equal rights within Israel, world's rejection of current Israeli politis will accelerate tremendously and ultimately Israel will lose its Zionist identity.
Better smarten up Israel, before Palestinian womb conquers what jihad could not.

tom from WI

Tom the answer to that question has already been provided you. The fact that you are still asking indicates its not the answer you wanted to hear or you are ignoring the facts.

Playground one sided garbage
Jeez some growing up needs to take place here.

This conflict is the result of BOTH sides doing wrong.

This idiocy that you cannot point this out without being called an Israeli- hater is very very juvenile.

Hamas are terrorists and kill innocent Isreaulis, the Israelis have blockaded Palestine into poverty and submission and now and again indiscrimately bomb and shoot palestinians.

They are both wrong. And this blind eye you americans turn to Israels part in this is as sick and wrong as the muslim world turn a blind eye to Hamas.

Go away and let Europe who have the full picture and are not isn eithe Israels or the muslims pocket sort it will ya!

Mentally Ill
Savage says "Liberalim is a mental disorder." If thats true, (and I think it is,) there is n group more disturbed than my fellow Jews. Jews are the only group that go out of their way to do everything to assist those that would like nothing better than to kill them and murder all of their fellow Jews. Witness the sympathy that so-called Jews like Alan Colmes and Jon Stewart have for Hamas and their beloved Palestinians.
But its not only Hollywood liberal Jews. 78% of American Jews voted for Obama, a man supported by anti-semites like Wright, Farrakkhan, Khalidi, Hamas, etc. These voters were not elitist movie stars or college professors. They were average Americans. As a politically conservative American Jew, the 78% Jewish vote for Obama has convinced me, once and for all, that theres no hope for the American Jewish voter.

Burt
I agree with you completely. In a larger context the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict exemplifies the on-going struggle between the destructive forces of barbarism which have never left the planet and the creative forces of civilization. Nothing better illustrates this than the Israeli gift to the Palestinians when the Israelis vacated Gaza of thousands of very productive greenhouses which were promptly destroyed and sold for scrap. What I don't fully understand is why these conflicts quickly become defined as a political left vs. political right issue with the political left with the help of the "international community" consistently supporting the slide toward barbarism, destruction, and dissolution. The history of Rhodesia-Zimbabwe is another example. The left and the international community act as they were totally blameless for the current suffering there, although they are completely responsible what has happened. Israel was a rock-strewn desert occupied by a few goatherders until the Jews turned it into an oasis. It would quickly become a rock-stewn desert again if they were to leave.

Framing the debate
Taft said:

"... Ahen, Like I give a r@t's @ss what you think."

Thank you for identifying your level of debate and your ability to debate. I certainly couldn't have demonstrated it any better.

Returning to your original objection:

[Stands]:
"At one time in world history, the Muslim world was a place people went to seeking enlightenment and inspiration."
[Taft]:
Not only untrue but rather anti-Semitic.

Your problem with this statement is hazy, but I presume that you find offense in the suggestion that the Muslim world is NO LONGER a place where people go to seek enlightenment and inspiration. If that is the case, then Stands's statement is not anti-Semitic. You can claim that Stands brought it up for anti-Semitic reasons (which would assume that you know what is in Stands's heart,) but the statement itself is not anti-Semitic. It is either true or untrue. If it is untrue, then it can be proven untrue with relevant facts, for which you were asked. It was a legitimate request, to which you responded with the overused term "Nazi" -- specifically, "Nazi logic." I see this tactic, and it is a tactic, used routinely -- throwing out loaded terms like "Nazi," "Hitler," and "racist" in an attempt to delegitimize your opponent in the hopes that everyone involved will agree that his opinions should be simply ignored. This very likely works in the left wing blogosphere, but it won't work here, where everyone involved sees this tactic for the cynical ploy that it actually is.
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