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Monday, February 11, 2008
Burt Prelutsky :: Townhall.com Columnist
J'Accuse IQs
by Burt Prelutsky
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Some people simply have an affinity for groups. They are those who like attending meetings and serving on committees. They enjoy being addressed as “Ladies and Gentlemen” and can even tolerate sitting through the reading of the minutes of the last meeting. I am not one of those people.

For one thing, once you join a group, somebody or other is going to wind up speaking on your behalf. Heck, I don’t even care to have the president of the United States, whichever party he belongs to, presuming to speak on my behalf.

That’s why I don’t even identify myself as a Republican. Instead, I call myself a conservative. True, I wind up voting for Republicans, but, more often than not, that’s because Democrats are so abominable. And I’m not just referring to Barack Abominable.

Some well-meaning friends have suggested I would be happier supporting a third party candidate, but third party candidates can only be spoilers. Thus, in 1992 and 1996, Ross Perot siphoned off enough votes from the GOP to help elect Bill Clinton; and in 2000, Ralph Nader returned the favor by garnering 2.8 million votes that would most likely have gone to Al Gore.

My disinclination to join groups is not a recent development that could be attributed to the cynicism of an aging curmudgeon. Unlike my old friend, Groucho Marx, who famously rejected membership in a certain country club on the grounds that he refused to belong to any organization that would have Groucho Marx as a member, I reject all groups.

In fact, as I look back over my life, the only group I ever joined was Mensa, and that, more or less, was an accident. It happened back in my 20s. I was dating an attractive young woman at the time. Apparently wishing to prove that she had more than good looks going for her, she decided to prove her worth by passing the Mensa test. That was okay with me. If other people wish to join groups, that’s their business. The problem was that she insisted that I, too, take the test. I guess the way she saw things, it would be unbecoming for her as an official member of the big brain club to be saddled with a knuckle-dragging nincompoop.

So, one Saturday afternoon, as I recall, we took the test. As anyone the least bit familiar with life as it is depicted in movies and TV sit coms could readily predict, I passed and she didn’t. Worse yet, I don’t think she believed me when I told her I didn’t think any the less of her. However, if our positions had been reversed, she would have obviously dropped me in a New York minute, and she clearly doubted my sincerity. That was that, except that I was now a card-carrying member, and I soon began receiving invitations to Mensa events.

Being dateless, I figured I had nothing to lose. After all, unlike some men, I preferred intelligent women. So off I went to a mixer for new members. Frankly, I’m not sure what I expected. But whatever it was, I was sorely disappointed. Never having been in prison or a mental institution, I’d never met so many embittered people in my entire life.

Having an IQ in excess of 140 or 150 or whatever the cutoff was seemed to ensure only two things. The first was having had one’s sense of humor surgically removed. The other thing, and obviously related to the first thing, was that, without exception, these people were convinced of their natural superiority to mere mortals. They all felt that their employers, their supervisors and their colleagues at work, were all a bunch of dumb clucks, and if only God, Himself, were bright enough to be a member of Mensa, He’d have seen to it that they were the ones in charge.

Thinking perhaps that I had caught them on a bad night and that I shouldn’t make any snap decisions, I went to a few other get-togethers. But it was just more of the same.

There and then, I decided that high IQs are highly over-rated, and that when it comes to evaluating a person’s worth, it makes about as much sense to judge them by their phone numbers or their zip codes!

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About The Author
W. Burt Prelutsky is an accomplished, well-rounded writer and author of "The Secret of Their Success: Interviews with Legends and Luminaries."
 
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high IQs
Your comment " Having an IQ in excess of 140 or 150 or whatever the cutoff was seemed to ensure only two things. The first was having had one’s sense of humor surgically removed. The other thing, and obviously related to the first thing, was that, without exception, these people were convinced of their natural superiority to mere mortals." is incorrect. First of all, the majority of people in MENSA have IQs around the cut-off point... from 130-138 and not higher than that. Secondly only a fraction of members of MENSA attend functions so to make a generalization from that is inane. And third, if you have ever known anyone "in excess of 140 or 150 IQ", you would know they not only have a well developed sense of humor but also couldn't POSSIBLY think themselves superior as people on a daily basis remind them how "oddball" they are. Suggest you do better research before making negative generalizations about any group of people.

Jim, thank you!
That was my experience as well -- plus the wonderful discovery back in the 1980s that men outnumbered women in Mensa by about five to one. The wry joke among us women was "Dumb men like dumb women. Smart men like dumb women."

However, if one attended a symposium on Venture Capitalism for the purpose of learning something, or for example to meet the gentleman who designed and built the Gyrocopter and flew it in a James Bond movie (Wing Commander Wallis) or to debate the Turing Test...or to present an electrifying paper on the difficulty of predicting language and communication in the 21st century (written in 1985) by presenting a pre-atomic SF story set in the "Far Future", which put painful circumlocutions in the mouths of people reduced to savagery to describe things that were commonplace in 1942 but totally unknown in 1985 ... or by analyzing the technology of Star Trek's 23rd century which, by the time it was cancelled, had fallen well behind 20th century advances ... well that was worth while. Also if you wanted a date with a spy. I have met two spies in my life. Both were Mensans.

Mensa (Continued)
Honestly, the biggest complaint that young people have upon joining a local group is that they are usually dominated by retirees who have been members for a long time. That can make it an intimidating group to join as a new, young person. But, younger members have, especially on a national level, taken great steps to offer more to younger people and to make the organization more appealing to new members since I joined.

But Mensa is much more than its local groups and the local groups are more than their monthly meetings. Perhaps the best decision I made shortly after joining was to attend the Annual Gathering that year. People from all over the country attend and they are tons of fun. Also, just about every weekend, there is a Regional Gathering somewhere in the country. There are also Special Interest Groups (SIGs) on every subject you can imagine with national and international online listservs and local SIG groups. We also host Colloquia on topics ranging from cosmology to humor.

What do I do with all this? Last night, I attended our monthly meeting and heard a local nuclear engineer speak about his business. Later this month, a group of us will be playing trivia at a local bar (other barflies who play trivia and recognize us hate to see us coming), and I'll be skiing in Jackson Hole with SkiSIG in a few weeks. In addition, I've made friends thoughout the country I often visit while traveling and I especially look forward the Annual Gathering.

Our organization has been called everything from "a support group for those who score in the abnormal range on certain tests" to "a dating service for dorks." In some respect we resemble those remarks, but I think that until you have actually participated in the organization on more than a superficial level (and the author clearly only participated on the MOST superficial level), you can't see the very rich set of social and intellectual rewards that the organization can provide.

Mensa
Let me start by saying that I am the recording secretary of my local Mensa chapter. I cannot speak for the organization, but can share my own experience.

I think that kindel's comments are very good, but I would take exception to the comment "Those full of confidence and purpose enjoying their lives are unlikely to congregate on such a narrow basis."

The plain fact of the matter is that people do tend to socialize more readily with people with whom they have things in common. Mensa is an opportunity to do exactly that.

I graduated from Vanderbilt on Navy ROTC scholarship some years ago and was soon stationed in San Diego on a warship. As an Ensign, I could not socialize with enlisted members or more senior officers. My fellow junior officers were my roommates and, while they were great guys, after enough time at sea, you're tired of looking at them.

I found myself in need of a good solid social outlet. More importantly, I missed the intellectual stimulation of bull sessions in dorm rooms you can get in college. I decided to give Mensa a try.

When I got to my first meeting, I must say that I was a bit bewildered, as, frankly, most people are at their first local gathering. I also think a lot of people (like the author) come expecting to be rejected or judged in some way -- and, consequently, paint their various prejudices on the organization quickly. That way they can reject the organization before it rejects them. I think that's what the author did, judging from the article.

To be fair, there are arrogant Mensans. But, there are plenty of humble ones as well and that's not the defining characteristic. As to humor, one of the greatest "aha!" moments that people often experience upon joining Mensa is that they're actually with a group of people who get their jokes! Some of the funniest people you'll ever meet are Mensans, although I confess we do get more than our share of bad puns.

"education" and "intelligence"
Bishop Fulton J Sheen once remarked that "it is easier for an educated person to rationalize and justify evil. Witness the evils of abortion and the justification that the "educated" elites make for it.

IQ
It's discouraging to see what's called the "tall poppies" phenomenon rear its head on townhall constantly - envy and the desire to cut tall poppies down to our own size. This is more appropriate to a leftist liberal site who have cookie cutter ideas about making people equal (except for a small ruling elite in which the millions of libs always see themselves).

We shouldn't console ourselves with imagining that beautiful people are necessarily dumb or smart people are socially inept etc. Some people win the genetic lottery and are beautiful, smart, generous and use their gifts to make a success of their lives. So what? We all have some gifts and our concern should be to make the most of them, building our own little hill instead of digging holes for others.

The Mensa group are a self-selected unrepresentative group of people with high IQ's. Those full of confidence and purpose enjoying their lives are unlikely to congregate on such a narrow basis. Most attractive women don't go the beauty queen route either.

It's our job as citizens to encourage everyone to strive for self-improvement and to promote leaders on the basis of brains, character and ability to sell ideas. Those three don't often ride together. Instead of envying such people, we should be recruiting them to run the country.

can't afford 4 years of pure left
The world is at a tipping point with Western civilization on the ropes, weakened from within by leftist sappers and a large Muslim fifth column and from without by Islamofascist barbarians at the gate.

This is not a time to be "teaching a lesson" to RINO's by handing the most powerful office in the world to a leftist/Democrat. The USA itself cannot afford 4 years of a giant step to the left and it is the last bulwark against the socialists and barbarians who are dragging us all to a new Dark Ages of economic and social collapse.

Teach by voting for every Republican in sight but absolutely drowning them with demands that they take up conservative positions both before and after your vote! Don't pull the lever once and kvetch for 4 years among ourselves. Inform your congressional members and any candidate of your demands on an ongoing basis.

Tell McCain that he is receiving your reluctant vote only because you are voting against the Democrats and not for him in his present mushy state. Tell him that if he dares carry on his unreciprocated one-sided caving in to Democrats, he will be the most reviled President in U.S. history by his own voters!

Put them in but lean on them hard. Keep watching and insisting on border control, objecting to every piece of pork, demand rolling back of government control everywhere but national defence.

There's a big weakness in the Republican selection process that can bring such un-conservatives to the fore. FIX IT. Get real conservatives to run and vote for them. You'll notice Democrats are never in danger of getting anyone even approaching the middle. They keep going farther left and energizing their voters.

Jer: Use of stats
It is one thing to discuss the genetic aspect of intelligence. Is there a genetic difference between races in terms of intelligence? Maybe.
But what does that actually mean. And what does it NOT mean.

Granting that what you say is true (though it can definitely be contested) the data tells us absolutely nothing about any single individual and almost nothing about the vast majority of people. The top 50% of any group is likely to be more intelligent than the bottom 50% of any other group.








cleverness_of_me
It is what it is.

Identical twins possess the same DNA.

Such twins, when separated at birth and raised in radically different environments, had almost identical scores on i.q. tests administered to them years, sometimes decades, later.

Their environments were very different, not mere nuances of typical Scandinavian family environments.

Some families emphasized learning. Some did not. Some families possessed books. Some did not. Formal education between each twin differed greatly.

It certainly undermines, if not refutes, any contention environment or nurturing is as important in determining intelligence as genetic endowment

There is no burden of proof to meet.

The study is what it is.

I don't think anyone who is open-minded and willing to go where logic and empirical study takes him can assert there are no differences between groups, be they races or ethnicities, on the issue of intelligence.

Politically correct dogma sometimes casts a pall upon intellectual inquiry.

Mensa
As was written before, intelligence is not something earned, but something given. Like money inherited, it's dropped on heads at birth.

Intelligence is a tool. It depends on experience and acquired knowledge. It needs common sense like a bread recipe needs yeast.

Putting a high IQ into a situation which allows no growth is like trying to raise bread in a cold oven.

People with high IQs who are attracted to Mensa are intelligent people who are frustrated with the outlets they have in their lives.

The world, as it is, is meant for the mediocre. Looking at literature it is sure that life hasn't changed in thousands of years. The physical world around us has changed, but human nature hasn't changed.

Those who are intelligent are handicapped. Like all handicapped some are successful. Most are frustrated. Life is a lot easier for those who don't have to see the details in the life around them.

The Densa of Mensa
Mr. Prelutsky wrote:

"... the only group I ever joined was Mensa ...

"So off I went to a mixer for new members. Frankly, I’m not sure what I expected. But whatever it was, I was sorely disappointed. Never having been in prison or a mental institution, I’d never met so many embittered people in my entire life.

"Having an IQ in excess of 140 or 150 or whatever the cutoff was seemed to ensure only two things. The first was having had one’s sense of humor surgically removed. The other thing, and obviously related to the first thing, was that, without exception, these people were convinced of their natural superiority to mere mortals.

"... There and then, I decided that high IQs are highly over-rated..."


How true, how true !!! I too had similar experiences. Guess it just shows to go the top 98% are just like all the rest of us, people. With all the foibles attached thereto, albeit perhaps somewhat more 'concentrated'.

For those of you who might consider exploring the Janus-like nature of Mensa, I would suggest PhilosophyM and SillyM, and, for an 'international flavor'', MPositive; all on Yahoo! Groups.

L'Chaim,
Catskills John

PS. From someone who has both "been in prison" and "a mental institution", courtesy of riding the Occam's Razor's Edge of Mensa...


Let Me Explain
First off let me just say that, like Burt, I wanted Rudy Guiliani to prevail, most of my friends think I'm delusional because I envisioned a Rudy Guiliani/Micheal Steele ticket-
Okay they're probably right, but I can dream can't I?
Secondly, in my early post on this article I attempted a haiku, if you will, regarding Burt's Mensan travails and the fact that he's not a group person, I, in my foolish reverie after eating about half a dozen Mensan Weed Cookies and washing it down with a Fosters, in trying to make light of Burt's dilidalliances(spell check not used), I lost LATEBLOOMER and STEVE so let me take this opportunity to find them. Just so you gentlemen know, in the future I'm staying away from the Mensan Weed Cookies and Fosters-there's only so much delusion to go around. I tried, albeit unsuccessfully to make light of Burt being a Conservative and a Mensan and to add insult to injury, drawing from the fact that he wrote for the popular TV series M.A.S.H once; I interjected the Radar O'Reilly for President reference thus if you watch the show he was basically the glue that held the unit together by knowing everything including when wounded were coming, thus, the I hear Choppers reference.
Then, I found out I received an award for IQ Draining Screaming Irrelavancy and I did not have a speech prepared so I borrowed from Sally Field. Oh! at the end when I said "appologises", I meant appology's.
You're all probably wondering what this has to do with Burt's original article...Let me explain....

cleverness

The people who want to favor "common sense" over something we might call "smarts" are usually people who think they have common sense but know pretty well they are of average intelligence. They also tend to disparage the idea that the life of the mind is a reward in and of itself.

The fact is that 50% of all Americans are below the median in intelligence.


Mensa
How nice to find that someone shares a personal secret. Decades ago I also joined the High IQ Club because knowing I did well on IQ tests had been a security blanket in my insecure youth. The people I met were mostly nice but quite the same as described in this article. It was both a revelation and a humiliation to have my bubble burst, but I emerged more human and much the better for it. Too bad that so many people with good minds never get the message, my multiple-Phd brother suffered lifelong frustration and anger in consequence of his over- awareness of his facile mind.

jerabaub
Whether intelligence varies from race to race is has not been proven. Yes, there appears to be some co-relation between race and test-scores, but that does not prove that race is the sole factor.

Your "twin study" example is deeply flawed, because you have two people who, while separated at birth and raised in different communities, were still raised in comparable Scandanavian homes, properly nourished and cared for. The problem with twin studies in these instances is that the homes in which they are screened and defective parents are hopefully eliminated. Furthermore, adoptive parents WANT to have children.

Given the huge problems in some African-American sub-cultures, including an incredibly high unwanted pregnancy rate, illiteracy, and drug use, it is indeed possible that a child may not receive the early-childhood stimuli which can help with brain development. Nobody is ever going to put one of your twins into that kind of environment, because it would be unethical.

I am willing to consider the possibility that all races are not intellectually equal, but you have not even come close to meeting the burden of proof.

High IQ with common sense
While it is true that it is possible to have a high IQ and still have difficulties if you lack common sense, it is also possible to have both a high IQ and common sense.

Most of the high IQ people I know do not have so much common sense, and most of the common sense people I know do not have high IQ's. I suspect that the reason for this is that people with BOTH qualities tend to have security guards to keep the riff-raff like me from bothering them while they run their Fortune 500 corporations, or work to cure diseases.

CT
Agreed. Smartest guy I knew, my uncle, had neither. Could have done so much more if he also had those attributes.

One good reason for Mensa ...
...would be to identify those we don't want for political office.

Bouette
Just scanning the postings this morning, I ran across yours of 1:59 P.M. from the 11th.

Yours is an excellent post. I agree with your conclusions.

I have read alot on this matter, and intelligence is largely genetic.

You are also correct intelligence DOES vary among races, ethnicities, and other groups.

It is a fact.

It is not in dispute.

In the age-old argument between "nature and nurture", nature clearly is dominant.

Studies in a Scandinavian nation in which identical twins were adopted, placed in radically different environments immediately after birth(due to natural occurrences...and not due to this study)demonstrated that on intelligence tests these identical twins undertook decades later, individual twin scores were very close to each other...DESPITE being raised in very different environments where there were large differences in familial attitudes to learning, access to books, and where the twins exposure to formal education varied immensely.

There is absolutely no disputing that intelligence is GENETIC, and to the extent some races or ethnicities have higher intelligence than others, is a fact of life.

It does not mean those with less intelligence are not worthy of dignity and respect.

But intelligence DOES matter, and it is a huge predictor in success in life.

Just remember,
a high IQ doesn't always come with common sense or wisdom. I see many intelligent people without a lick of either.

Obama?
World Net Daily has an article with a link to a Fox news video showing one of Obama's Texas offices. On the wall is a Cuban Flag with Che's picture super imposed on it. Great for the wannabe Pres. of the US. Guess it's a part and parcel of the earlier articles about him not wearing a flag pin.

What are we contemplating for our next Pres?

Wrong Side of the Street
When I was a kid, people judged people according to which side of 9th Street (the main street and highway running through our little town). Many of those living on the east side were deemed unworthy, while most of those on the west side were most popular.

Many kids from the east side went to college, earned degrees, advanced degrees, and administrative certificates. Most of those from the west side did not.

MLK said it best in his "I Have a Dream" speech - to judge on the content of heart and character.

Based on that idea, I will - for the 1st time in X# of elections - vote a "straight GOP" ticket. Why? I am thinking of those who are running for Congress, the Senate, and numerous local & state elections. These "lower grade" conservatives may subdue some of the sell-out of America by those rascalians seeking the two top jobs.

Zip and area codes


When I first read the last statement in Burt’s column, “ … it makes about as much sense to judge them by their phone numbers or their zip codes!”, I thought that many TH er’s would spread the word, that millions of people do that exact thing already. But at the moment, I think they have been mentioned just twice, up to now.

Just read the objections and the problems that occur whenever they change an area code. When they talked about changing parts of 213 and 310, and 818 to something else, people hollered that they would be thought less of, if they lost that number.

When I lived in 619, and they changed it to 760, some people went nuts, but by now, they are proud they are no longer in 619.

There have been stories about people refusing to buy a house in code 909, because that identified them as living in nowhere.

And for zip codes, one of the Beverly Hills zip codes was the title of a TV show, but since I never watched it, I don’t know what they were so proud, or so unhappy about.

Mensa and Brains
I am a member of Mensa and I joined it the same way Bert did: on a dare. One of my former brothers in law (my sisters are marrying fools) dared me to take the test(s) -- I took all three and got in. Then he would not take the test because he said IQ was bourgois. He was a communist. He probably would have qualified though.

I enjoyed belonging to British Mensa, and attended the annual week at Cambridge debating set subjects and presenting papers. I have met some fascinating people in Mensa. And yes, I have also met a lot of Joe Sixpacks and people who believe that it will somehow take the *taint* off their brains if they get roaring drunk, attend lingerie shows and go bowling instead of contemplating language and communication in the 21st century through science fiction pre-Atom Bomb, for example.

A common sneer at Mensans is *If you are so smart, why aint you rich?* and the common Mensa retort is *If you are so rich, why arent you smart?* The truth is we can get rich if and whenever we want to. THEY CAN NEVER GET SMART.

Cookie (re: Dennis Miller)
Cookie: "I'm sure Dennis Miller wasn't sent to the TV scrap heap because of his changed political views, right? Suddenly he's not funny or witty?"
-----------------------------
He became a caricature of himself -- the very kind of person he successfully made fun of before. Sad, really.

The schtick with the chimp was the last straw.

SOD
To bad I must leave, because I could have a field day on Obama Hussein and his Pocket Oprah.


Chelsea wouldn't
kill her father. Who does she look like anyway?

Cookie
Looks to me, she needs to be on her Crying Game #4 because Obama is sweeping the rug with her.

You're right, if a republican had those credentials, and there have been quite a few, what happens? They are MSM fodder for weeks, other republicans would turn their backs on them, and they would resign. Republicans do not celebrate, cheer on, or coddle other party members in office who go bad.

My leftist militant sister-in-law who was molested as a child even got furious with me when I spoke of Bill as a sexual deviant who needs to registor like any sex offender should.
She denied it up and down Bill ever diddled with other women, let alone rape, and that Monica was a hoax.

Sickness.

Bill and OJ
Just because someone is never convicted of a crime does not mean the we have to pretend that he didn't commit the crime. Broderick and Willey chose not to file charges against Clinton. That does not mean that their assertions about Clinton should be ignored.

You must consider that Kathleen Willey had a contemporaneous witness for her assault, who saw her emerge from Clinton's office with her clothing and make-up a mess. Willey then told the witness that Clinton had assaulted her. You must also consider the number of accusers who show a pattern of sexually aggressive behavior on the part of President Clinton.

So, Bill is innocent the way OJ Simpson is innocent. We do not have to pretend, regardless of the legal technicalities.

Shells, I feel like I live in...
in the Twilight Zone or an alternative universe when it comes to the Clintons. Any Republican with their past would have been forced off the stage by fellow Republicans or forced to by the MSM. Now that Ms. Accomplishment has cried 3 times, do you think anyone is buying it anymore? And if someone (Jack) does believe it, do they really want someone that weak to run our nation at such a crucial time?

jack writes
First student ever selected to give commencement address at Wellesly

Graduate of Yale Law School

Served as COngressional Counsel

one of two female faculty members at the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law

Listed as one the the 100 Most influential lawyers in the nation in 1988.

Elected Senator from New York twice

First women to have legitimate chance of beign elected president in the US.

Served on numerous coproarate and non-profit boards and organizations.

Now, you may not like her, but if your biggest claim to fame is that you have a lovely wife and kids, then you are in absolutly no position to be casting aspersions on Clinton's accomplishments.

Your self righteousness, absent any concrete underpinnings, astounds.

Thats fine and dandy...But what are her accomplishments in the Senate other than the biggest abuser of earmarks?

Shells
Could not have said it better. We live in reality and know our team has warts. Their team ignores it. However, if proven, it is almost a resume enhancer. Sure to get that democrat promoted.

Cookie
True, Obama isn't scum at all. He partied like most of us partied back in the day.

Rape is a different magilla all together, ain't it?

I'm not angry at the Clintons. I just find it absolutely surreal to see them move and exist through life unscathed and glorified by folks like Jack.

The thing is Cookie, even if Bill Clinton came down from the heavens and knocked on Jack's door, invited himself in, sat down and said to Jack, "You know son...ah did rape that woman, Juanita, and ah got away with it...."

Do you know what Jack would do? Still make excuses for him. That's the disease called liberalism.


I myself
have a genius level IQ and I work! One of my brothers has a superior IQ as well. The difference is he thinks his IQ means that NO JOB is good enough for him. Add the fact that he served 3 years in the military, (in a no-combat zone) and he uses it to milk the government for disability. His ONLY disability is his super-ego! He occasionally takes jobs for cash and gets away with it; he's an embarrassment to the family tree!

Great column! 5 stars!

If we could stop cronyism, we might live in a more peaceful society, it's similar to the “cliques” people belonged to in junior high. Will they ever grow up?

No Jack
Republicans have their eyes wide open. We know George did coke, just as much as Obama did, and also was an alcoholic. We can see this, accept it, and discuss it...never needing once to deny it.

We don't need blood samples, drug tests, google links galore, pictures and eye witness accounts from their grandmothers. Bush indeed did do coke and had an alcohol problem.

And Clinton raped a woman. Say it, feel it, let it roll off the tongue and taste that. Clinton raped a woman named Juanita.

If you feel the need to compare warts to prove who is an unworthy human being in opposing political parties, I'll take a reformed party-on-dude than a rapist any day.

Shells
At least Obama isn't the scum of the earth. I may not agree with his policies, but at least he isn't a piece of garbage like the Clintons. Thus, my venom is reserved for those who truly deserve it, and the morons who turn a blind eye to their chicanary.

The anger only comes out
when a numbskull like you hero worships two of the most despicable people on earth. BTW, did you approve of your battered heroine sending hairy knuckled investigators out after any woman her rapist husband either slept with, harassed, or raped? Jack, did you really believe Mrs. Accomplishment when she said she was shocked to find out that the Moinca story was true? Why am I asking? Only the gullible and stupid vote for them so I answered my own question.

Arrested
That would be a good start.

Shells
it is entertaining watching someone try to defend the indefensible. My favorite group is NOW, a group that would practically march on DC if an executive in the private sector would have "consensual" sex with a subordinate. In fact, they had a name for it-"Disparity of Power." Now tell me, when has there ever been a greater disparity in power than the president of the most powerful nation on earth and an intern? All of a sudden, when it was their boy, no criticism. So Jack, like Hillary said, you expect everyone to have a willing suspension of disbelief-oops! Even your heroine Hillary does not believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Shells and Cookie
I know someone who claims to have partied really hard with G.W. Bush back in the day. All unsubstantiated claims are equal, as far as I am concerned. If Bill CLinton is guilt of rape, then I suggest he be arrested, don't you?

Regardless, if the issue is how much you hate Bill Clinton, then great. Welcome back to the glory days of the Republican party circa 1998. The rest of us will just slide on into the 21st century.

Does it really feel good to carry around all that old anger?

Cookie
You are very vocal today, it's nice to see you swinging.

I enjoyed Jack's predictable retort regarding Bill being a rapist and a sexual deviant,

"You can make any claim about Bill Clinotn you want. It is perfectly obvious to me, for example ,that George W. Bush was raging cokehead through much of his life and participated significantly in smuggling coke through Nicaragua. Happy now? "

Deny, deflect, BUSH is baaaaaad!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, it's like painting by numbers.

Jack
Too bad you had to make stuff up to counter what everyone knows, Bill Clinton is a rapist. You just can get your mind around the fact that you support such a scumbag and his abused wife, so you try to deny it. Whatever gets you through the day.

By the way, Arkansas went from 48th to 49th in education with your heroine involved. What an accomplishment. Better yet, Bill Clinton used this in his list of his wife's accomplishments. What chuzpah! Not surprising though. Most rapists have a lot of chutzpah by definition.

And I'm so sorry I didn't use the word "reform" after healthcare. I thought someone of your giant intellect could infer the obvious.

Jack
You said " To continually refer to her husband as a rapist is kind of Un-american, don't you think. Innocent until proven guilty? All that stuff? I would think it a mark of character to refrain from such attacks."

Bill is a rapist. Never heard of Juanita? I guess you need to read real news instead of being spoon fed glorious happenings of the Clinton couple.

But keep talking. I enjoy watching liberals rationalize the Clinton's behavior.

Vic
You might not have enough money left to purchase that 2 by 4. Or you may be dead because the liberal president tried to "reason" with people who want to kill us. But, you'll still have your principles, 6 feet under or not.

Note the Capital Letter
in "He" Jack. I wasn't responding to you. I stand by my saying she has accomplished very little for a person running for president. And to repeat my SUBSTANCE that you missed. The 3 things she did run, The Rose Law Firm, Healthcare, and Education Reform in Arkansas were a disaster-which is being kind.

I do enjoy that it tweaks your conscience when I call Bill Clinton what he is, a rapist. However, at the very least he is a serial abuser of women. That's proven. So stick that in your flimsy pipe of an argument and smoke it.

BTW, I graduated law school and innocent until proven guilty is a legal term for the courts. As an individual, I have every right to state the obvious. However, if the rapist feels he was slandered by Juanita Broderick, I'm sure he will sue her very soon. Just as soon as OJ finds the real killer.

Cookie

In the first place, had Hillary Rodham not married Bill Clinton, we do not know what other accomplishments she could lay claim to. There is no reason I can see to suggest she would not have accomplished equally significant things. We could as easily say that

Regardless, she did marry Bill Clinton and she accomplished what she accomplished.

Why are you now trying to shift the issue to character. I thought we were talking about accomplishments.

Furthermore, unsubstantiated charges should always be identified. To continually refer to her husband as a rapist is kind of Un-american, don't you think. Innocent until proven guilty? All that stuff? I would think it a mark of character to refrain from such attacks.

Burt
This election cycle was rigged from the start by the Republican elites to get RINO Rudy or someone like him elected; in other words, a liberal. What we had was 3 liberals with name recognition, one who seemed popular, one who was not popular, and one who had a small chance. Well, the expected one, your candidate, made a monumental mistake and delayed campaigning until Florida. He had already lost by then. That left Romney and McLame to duke it out for the liberal votes. In addition, one left wing religious zealot was added to draw off votes from the real conservatives.

The liberals in Iowa and New Hampshire have always been known to hand out a stick in the eye and they did. They handed us Huckleberry who ran Arkansas more liberal than Clinton. The New Hampshire not being stocked with religious zealots handed us good old stick in the eye McLame. So there the momentum was on. We only had two or maybe three real conservatives in the race to begin with, two of which had virtually no chance (Hunter and Tancredo). With Huckleberry taking votes from the legitimate conservatives Mclame got slightly more votes. IN those States that he barley eaked out a win with roughly 30% of the vote, he got all the delegates.

Look at what is happening now that almost everyone has dropped out. All the anti-mcLame votes are going to Huckleberry and he is wining.

The system is set up to giver us the worse candidates possible and it is succeeding in that.

Cookie
Everyone should vote their conscience. I look at this like I have been voting "against" the Democrats since BushI and I stated way back in the beginning of this race that I was NOT going to do that anymore. BushII has been a liberal disaster. Although he was better than Albore or Traitor Kerry he was still bad.

Each election the Repubs drift further to the left trying to capture that illusive undecided independent voter. Each time the Repubs move left, the Dems move further left. Folks we just do NOT have much room left to move any further left. If we do NOT take some action to straighten out the Republican elites pretty soon we will be voting for a socialist in order to vote against the communist the communist. That may sound like hyperbole but we are not very far from that already.

I will not vote for McLame and there are a lot of people like me out there. The idea is to take back the party. Burt is right about one thing. When hit in the head with a stick in 2006 the party bosses did not get the message. They thought “it’s the war”. If it was the “war” why is Mclame doing so good?

What I say is, if the stick didn’t get their attention, perhaps two-by-four on the order of a 50 state loss will.

Cookie
Well,

Disappointment is that feeling you get when you ahve no reposne to the issue at hand. But you are probably used to that.

I tolerate nothing but...
strong women in my life. Treacherous women are another thing completely.

Jack
Second half of your list is due to being married to the rapist. Does character mean nothing to you?

Gosh, somehow I...
thought He would be more clever. Disappointing.

Jack
Ouch! You showed me. Thanks Doc.

Jack writes:
A lot of better women out there doing good works and have not committed a criminal act! Find a new heroine!

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=956&title=Vietn am_Veterans_Against_McCain&vpkey=62acaf320c

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean
Write in a name folks, it is still a free country! Well, until McQuack comes up with more ideals on how to kill free speech.

Cookie: List of accomplishments
First student ever selected to give commencement address at Wellesly

Graduate of Yale Law School

Served as COngressional Counsel

one of two female faculty members at the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law

Listed as one the the 100 Most influential lawyers in the nation in 1988.

Elected Senator from New York twice

First women to have legitimate chance of beign elected president in the US.

Served on numerous coproarate and non-profit boards and organizations.

Now, you may not like her, but if your biggest claim to fame is that you have a lovely wife and kids, then you are in absolutly no position to be casting aspersions on Clinton's accomplishments.

Your self righteousness, absent any concrete underpinnings, astounds.




Care to list...
those accomplishments? As far as having a faithful spouse and great family life, I've accomplished way more than her. My wife and sons are my greatest accomplishment and I dare say, my priorities are much more in order.

Mensa anteater
was considered a malcontent, insubordinate, rebel by most of his co-workers UNTIL the day he took a lower IQ Anteater ( the company gossip ) to the shooting range with his AK-47 and Micro UZI. Happily, Mensa Anteater does not experience much conflict anymore with upper management and is afforded a much greater respect and wider berth at work.

Conclusion - IQ doesn't amount to much without an UZI.

Burt
Thanks for stopping by. I hope your logic will sink in to others here.

Hope springs eternal!
If McCain gets elected and pays at least some heed to the efforts of Conservatives to hold him to a Conservative tone in his administration, maybe those Dems with middle-of-the-road to Conservative tendencies will vote for him for a 2nd term!

This would give Conservatives time to find a palatable candidate to replace McCain in 2016.

A guy can dream!

IQs
Bert, you're alright. That was a great article.

Herein Lies the Racism
Allow me to explain. I will accept, for the purposes of the argument, the data that Boutte provides regarding IQ. (We could argue that out as well, but we do not need to here)

In any broad statistical distribution like that, the differences within a population will be grater than the differences between populations. For (a basic) example, Jews may have an average IQ advantage of 3 points over Asians, but there are certainly Jews with IQ's of 85. Or 50. Or 20. Just as there are certainly Asians with IQ's of 220.

When Boutte jumps from average IQ to this claim: "It is therefore a great handicap to our collective future that so many brown and black folks are being let into the USA and breeding faster than the cleverer races" he is ignoring several crucial factors.

A) THose being let into the US may or may not be similar to the population upon which his data is based

B) Even if the populations are the same, those being let into the country may or may not be representative of thier own population.

To generalize from the data posted to the conclusion about the "brown or black folks" is actually to ignore the data, and the issue of intelligence, and to revert instead to characterization by race of individuals who may or may not match the data.

That is racism.



Cookie
Hillary did amazing things for the Rose Law Firm; she generated a lot of legal fees from the Arkansas Government without wasting any office time doing any actual work. Is that not impressive?

Boutte
A lot of people are going to call you nasty names, and not face your argument head-on. I do not want to make that mistake, so here is my reasoned response.

You are right that IQ can be a very useful tool in predicting success, and the bell-curves are not politically correct.

But, as any statistician will tell you, correlation does not prove causality. Blacks tend to skew lower on IQ tests, but this does not prove that the lower scores are caused by their race. Parenting during a child's formative years has an enormous impact on brain development. If you have a large black sub-culture that does not read to their children, this could lower the average for everybody. My personal experience tends to back this up, with the educated blacks I know having very bright children, whereas the drug-dealers I found myself in a shared housing situation with (long story) had very stupid children.

So, while it is ridiculous to expect to have blacks properly represented at Harvard when the data shows that there just aren't enough brilliant black people at this time, more data is needed before we start using the very broad strokes of IQ test to label entire races inferior.

Boutte
Those numbers can be somewhat misleading. Even granting your premise, if there are a few very distant outliers in the lower groups, or a few very high outliers in the higher groups, the numbers could be very highly skewed and say less than you claim they do.

Of course, that is not to say I agree with either your premise or conclusions, just saying that your conclusions do not even follow if your premise is granted, as those low numbers may be the result of a skewed set, which means there are a lot fewer to "leave behind" than you claim.

Jack Jack Jack
Do you really think she would be in this position but for her marriage to the abuser/rapist? She couldn't pass the DC bar. Everything she has attempted to run has been an abysmal failure. The Rose Law Firm, Education in Arkansas, and Healthcare are proof. I do like Obama personally, he just has no experience. Hillary, is a despicable human being-understandable given the abuse she has lived with. Hardly qualifications to run our country.

Boutte
Speaking the truth will get you in trouble. We are called racist for opposing things like bi-lingual education. I have a rational, non-racist reason. All this does is put hispanic kids further behind the head start my kids have. A lead they may never make up. And judging by your IQ stats, this is a further handicap/gap they cannot afford.

Cookie, such condescension

You may think that liberals have a superiority complex, but serioously...

You reduce Hillary Clinton, Senator, First Lady, Yale Law grad to "an abused wife" and think that you do NOT have a superiority complex?


Burt, always a thrill...
to hear from you. My apologies for wandering off from your topic. Unfortuneately, idiots and those history revisionist need to be corrected every now and then. When they start it, we'll finish them off.

Jack
Agreed. However, my point was that liberals have a superiority complex and I was pointing out how shallow their field of candidates is. Surely the party of "genius" can do better than a 2 year Senator (admittedly clean and articulate), an abused wife, and an ambulance chaser with zero credentials.

Mr Prelutsky
Thank you! I have been saying the same for a long time on my blog pages. Much as I dislike McCain, he is still a tiny bit better than the alternatives. I know it won't help "move the party to the right", but neither did sitting out 2006. And that can't be a concern right now. My main interest right now is in doing the least harm I can with my vote. it isn't inspiring, but if the choice is the horror of Hillary or Obama, or the lesser problems of McCain, then I have to support McCain to reduce the harm.

And if you think Hillary or Obama won't do a lot of harm, recall that we are still dealing with policies set by Wilson a century ago, not to mention FDR and even Carter. Nixon's price controls gave us our dependence on middle eastern oil, Carter's bad policies gave us modern Iran. Carter shows very well, how even one term of a bad president can still cause a lot of harm.

So, much as I hate it, I am voting McCain (unless some miracle gives us a brokered convention and a real candidate, of course.)

Cleverness
Well said. BTW, the next catch phrase for ill informed liberals is "Swiftboating." Kerry has proven nothing concerning his accusations about them while the Swift Boat Veterans have proven Kerry a liar several times. Senator Kerry stands to receive a million dollars if he proves just one allegation false. What is he waiting for? Senator Kerry, sign the release and allow us to review your complete military record. That would prove you honest and the Swifties liars, right? Right?

Typo
Should read "maybe they sided with Loki".

The Writer Stops By, but only to set the
record straight. Some of you think I am backing McCain and some think otherwise. The truth is, as I wrote last week, that Newt Gingrich would have been my first choice. But he wasn't running. I was for Giuliani for reasons I have already gone into, but he bowed out. I then voted for Romney in the California primary. Now I will vote for McCain because, unlike Ms. Coulter and Mr. Limbaugh, I happen to find him preferable to Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama.

When the GOP lost the House and the Senate in 2006, the party was supposed to get a wake-up call, so that in 2008 we would have a true conservative heading up the ticket. Well, it doesn't seem to have worked out that way, but it's not the fault of the RNC. For one reason or another, an overwhelming number of Republican voters seem to prefer McCain to all the others. The people have spoken, and in this country that's supposed to count for something.

If you believe that McCain would be as awful as the anti-military Socialist he'll be facing in November, that he, too, would appoint ACLU-approved left-wingers to the Supreme Court, I may think you're a darn fool, but it's your right to stay home. And good luck trying to convince yourself that your conscience is more important than your country.

Regards, Burt Prelutsky

Shells
Troll G-d? I don't recall that one? I know the giants had Surtr, but the trolls really had no one. Maybe the sided with Loki.

I wonder how he can type while being tormented with dripping venom?

Wow, I have way too much free time, don't I? Or maybe I should just stop reading all those norse and icelanic sagas and find something more prosaic for my spare time.

Jim
Exactly right

McCarthy
I am not sure how we got onto the subject of McCarthy, but it is essential to liberals that McCarthy remain as a symbol of paranoia and hysteria, regardless of the facts.

We hear about all of McCarthy's victims, yet I have yet to hear a single name, identifying an innocent whose career was ruined by McCarthy.

As to the hysteria, the Venona documents show that there were MORE spies working for the federal government than McCarthy estimated.

These guys were working for STALIN, and getting paid for it. Some were decorated by the KGB. They weren't just "liberals in a hurry", they were helping a man who had deliberately starved 8-10 million people to death.

Nobody complains about the anti-KKK hysteria when HUAC was formed in the 1920's to deal with a bunch of inbred yokels. Reagan even starred in the film "Storm Warning", which was about a detective sent to bring down the Klan in a small town, which won him rave reviews. Yet when he identified members of an organization that was seeking to eliminate democracy, and was in league with one of history's worst mass-murderers, he was vilified.

But we have been subject to the myth of McCarthy for so long that the facts no longer matter. But I wonder what we will be finding out about the current war when today's documents are declassified.

Cookie Tackling GOD
Cookie, you must not argue with the Troll God.

The Troll God is the God of All Who Must Troll.

He is all powerful and He is all knowing.

In His human form, The Troll God is a petite man, unable to grow chin hair, and lives in his mother's basement.

Respect Him.

Fear Him.

He is Liberal.

He is Troll God.

Amen.

Gunny-Nam-Burt
I went to 1 MENSA Meeting. I said Hello to a couple of people and they were stuck for an answer. I turned around and walked out!

Garbage in, garbage out
IQ is an effective means of measuring a person's raw intellect. If you test below 100, you will probably never understand quantum physics.

But your conclusions are only as good as your assumptions. Reagan's IQ was above average, but much lower than Bill Clinton's. But Reagan's assumptions were much more accurate: the Soviet Union will not be around forever, people can spend their own money better than government can etc.

This is why you see the A-students growing up to work for the C-students. The C-student can never do the mental heavy-lifting of the A-student, but he knows what needs to be done and why.

Personally, I am in that Saliari-like position of not quite being a genius, but being just smart enough to be able to recognize and appreciate genius when I see it.

Beastie Boy
You were "drafted" for elected office, hang out with federal judges, have done stand up, what else?

You don't happen to be a pilot do you?

Your posts here are starting to sound just a little Robertesque.

Cookie
The fact is that everybody who wants to be President has something seriously wrong with them.


McCarthy is a hero


GOxxxxxxxx writes: Monday, February, 11, 2008 12:50 PM
McCarthy
mass hysteria he created that took years to overcome.
===========

As if you need any more proof as to the stupidity of that writer. The mass hysteria was from his predecessors, who were found to be Communists, and who were, and some still are, trying to overthrow this beautiful country.

And McCarthy’s efforts were not counter productive, this is still a Democracy, not Communist as this other poster would prefer.

In 1951 I was a secret spy for the FBI, looking for members of the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg spy ring at Ft. Monmouth, NJ. The Rosenbergs had worked at Ft. Monmouth, and had stolen some sensitive information while working there in the 1940s. The Government thought there might still be some Russian spies at Fort Monmouth, in addition to the Rosenbergs.

Sounds like an exciting story, but all my weekly reports mailed to the secret FBI PO Box number in a phony town name, said, “Nothing to Report.”

And Your Presidential...
candidates have next to zero experience and zero qualifications to run a small company, much less the most powerful country in the world. All those intelligent Liberals, so superior, and this is the best you can come up with?

Hillary is great at being able to take more sh*t publicly than anyone in history. That sure is a sign of strength, right? Or is it political expediency? Yeah, I want someone so power hungry as to allow herslf to be humiliated beyond belief.

I've been a Mensan for...
eeek!! it's over twenty years! I should have bought that Life Membership years ago. Shows how dumb I am.

Seriously, every Mensa chapter has it's own personality and culture, just like any other group. I've seen people drop out because we weren't "intellectual" enough to suit them. Others, after being raised in families where being smart, interested in intellectual pursuits, and using 3+ syallable words are frowned on, finally find a "home."

Whether or not someone chooses to join Mensa depends a lot on what their interests are and whether they get enough intellectual stimulation at work.


And Liberal Senate KKK leader...
named Robert Byrd is also one of your elder statesmen, your standard bearer. Oh, and he used the "N" word twice on TV just a few short years ago. Once again proving my point that the MSM will cover for even the most aggregious offenses of a democrat vs. the transgressions of a republican. See the treatment of George Allen and "maccaca" vs. Mr. Senate leader, KKK member, "N" word spewing liberal Robert Byrd. Can't wait to see the MSM honor him when he dies. Will probably be bigger than the honoring of Congressman Gerry (molester) Studds.

And Liberals
hold up Ted Kennedy as some sort of standard bearer for the party. Yeah, you guys are brilliant. I can hardly see from the bright light of your brilliance.

Read a book
and find out that McCarthy has been proven right on almost every aspect of his investigations. He was doing God's work.

libs and demos are stupid beyond


Goxxxxx writes: Monday, February, 11, 2008 12:28 PM
(I refuse to address anyone that dumb, with that name.)

Which goes to show conservatives have no sense of humor.
==========

The fact that some idiot will mis-use that name, and make such a statement, proves without a doubt, as if proof was needed, that libs and demos are brainless, dazed, deficient, dense, dim, dodo, doltish, dopy, dotterel, dull, dumb, dummy, foolish, futile, gullible, half-baked, half-witted, idiotic, ill-advised, imbecilic, inane, indiscreet, insensate, irrelevant, irresponsible, laughable, loser, ludicrous, meaningless, mindless, moronic, naive, nonsensical, obtuse, pointless, puerile, rash, senseless, short-sighted, simple, simple-minded, slow, sluggish, stolid, stupefied, thick, thickheaded, trivial, unintelligent, unthinking, witless.

And stupid beyond the ability of the English language to describe them.

And you
elected a rapist who claims to support women's rights. Wow. You dems sure are smart.

I did attend some meetings

Oh my, just after posting the previous comment, I remembered that a few years ago, before my Sweetie became overly ill with dementia and Alzheimer's, I conducted a monthly meeting on Travel in Europe, at the local Senior Center.

Well, you see I was in charge, I was the center of attention (my Sweetie was always the center of my attention), so I was there each and every month for a while, until Sweetie suffered more, and more from those terrible diseases.

I just hope you never learn this on your own, but the thing worse than having Alzheimer's, is being the caretaker for a beloved Sweetie who suffers from that terrible disease.

Beastie & Shells
I'm sure Dennis Miller wasn't sent to the TV scrap heap because of his changed political views, right? Suddenly he's not funny or witty? Proves the point that liberals have no sense of humor, especially about themselves and that liberals are more than happy to "blacklist" people in the proud tradition of their biggest enemy, Joe McCarthy. Dennis Miller has the best show on the radio. He just mentioned the Mary Jo/Ted Kennedy incident. He told a listener that there is evidence that Mary Jo was alive for 4 hours after the crash surviving on an air pocket. Proving a previous point of mine that a the MSM will hound a republican out of office for the slightest transgression, yet not do the same for a liberal democrat. In fact, they honor those deserving no honor. Beastie, you can have Kennedy. I'll take Dennis Miller.

too dumb to know how smart I was

My US Army entrance test in 1946 would have qualified me for Mensa, but a fire in the Army records depot in St. Louis, MO in 1973, destroyed those records.

Later in the 1970s, at my Sweetie’s insistence I spent a day taking tests at University of So. Calif., and received membership in Mensa. A Mensa card and a dime won’t even buy a cup of coffee, but then I don’t drink coffee anyway.

I received a couple of phone calls from ladies who invited me to a meeting, but I am more anti-meeting than Burt.

Just to prove that fact, the only meeting of any kind I have attended for the past several years, was Burt’s book signing recently for his new book “The Secret of Their Success.” I was neither the last there, nor the first to leave, but … … .

When I was about 7 years old, my five older brothers and sisters were going to have a Sunday School Picnic on our farm. Where would you expect a 7 year old to be? Well, during the picnic my mother found me hiding in the hay mow.

During my 30 years in the computer business, I was known for the fact that after my speech, or my other participation, I disappeared from sight. If I wasn’t the one in charge, or the one getting all the attention, I was not there.

Since I went from milking 50 cows morning and night as a HS Sophomore, to ten years later (with no formal education in between) teaching rooms full of college grads (including PhDs) about computers at the RAND Corp., my brother, a PhD Professor for 50 years, said I was too dumb to know how smart I was.

BHL
Yeah, us knuckle-dragging right wingers. We just run almost everything in the private sector, which makes this country work. "Smart" liberals go "work" in government and academia because they can't cut it in the real world. One might say, they don't have the requisite intelligence to survive without artificial support. Those who can, do. Those who can't, work in the government or teach. My oldest son asked me once how I could correct his teacher (who had marked something correct when it was wrong-math). I asked him if it ever dawned on him that I was smarter than his teacher. Great first step. Wish someone had told me the same when I was 10. Now he doesn't necessarily swallow all the crap spewed in the schools, like you obviously did.

Shells
Though are vote is meaningless here in IL. One more thing. If that mythical conservative did emerge, the MSM would destroy him. Look at George Allen. Said a dumb thing, the MSM made it its mission to destroy him. I can list a few dozen horrid statements by dems that are swept under the rug and called "old news" by the MSM, and their careers go on. Our senior Senator, Dick Durbin, a prime example.

Intelligence and the right
Gee, an oxymoron right off!

While your all are applauding yourselves for being smart, but not Mensa smart, how does it feel to be second best and not be able to do anything about it?

Seriously, I've always said conservatives were intelligent, just not intelligent enough. Darn it, there I go again.

I love the bell curve, it is cruel and unyielding. Mensans are what, the top 1 or 2%? An IQ of 140 and a dime will get you a cup of coffee, the same as a person with an IQ of 100 and a dime (I'm dating myself, but please bear with me). The difference between the two is that person with a 100 IQ will need a calculator to make change.

Like conservatives, there is no reason for Mensans to be any nicer, more sophisticated, or have better social graces than the general population. They get together so they can talk to people and have their ideas understood. Any voluntary association is the same.


Shells, Don't sell yourself short...
IMHO...
You are at least...a triple threat :)

Gunnyg, Nam and Cookie
On principle, I absolutely agree with GunnyG and Nam that it's a terrible injustice for us to hold our noses as we vote.

I keep hearing we survived Jimmy Carter and we should be able to survive Obama/Clinton.

The thing is, I was probably 7 years old when Carter screwed America. I didn't own property, I didn't pay taxes, I didn't pay for my own insurance, I didn't have to pay for gas, I didn't have to buy food, I didn't have to work.

Life is a lot different now, harder even, despite all the wonderful advancements in our luxuries. I own property, I pay taxes (up the wazoo!), I pay for gas, food, my insurance, and I have no choice but to work every day---I truly don't think I alone could survive this country going to crap with Obama/Hillary, just so we can thumb our noses at the current republican party.

And face it now, and you KNOW this will be the TRUTH: You state that we can have 4 terrible years with dems in office ruining this country and they have no one to blame but themselves? Your're so wrong.

Why? Because anything bad that happens in this country for the next 20 years will be blamed on Bush and Bush alone. No matter what Obama or Hillary may do that screws us up, will be Bush's fault alone--that is what they will say and that is what the MSM will claim.

So that theory of letting them damage this country so they get blamed instead of the republicans will be false. They will never take blame on anything. It will always be Bush.

There will be no spectacular republican emerging from the mystic waters to save us in 4 years. It's not going to happen. I wish it were true, but I'm a realist.

So, as Cookie agreed with me, we're both voting for Mccain. I'm not taking a chance.

Beast Boy
Communist voters, like yourself are idiots----educated or uneducated.

Vic & Gunny
Continued. Take that scumbag Hillary as an example. If she were a Republican with the same past scandals and issues, the MSM would have shamed her off the stage long ago. Instead, what do we get? We get the "willful suspension of disbelief" concerning her character and past. Just the fact that she used that phrase and the MSM didn't jump all over her for the hypocrisy, I believe proves my point.

Shells 8:51
Nice retort. These comedians have everything scripted for them, even their ad libs. Heck, the genius Letterman could not do his show without writers. I'll grant you, some are quick on their feet with a comeback. That, to me, doesn't mean intelligence. It just means that person is a smart-a*s who doesn't care what people think. Heck, that's easy.

beast
"Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone."

The truth I dare not know I muffle with a jest."



Vic, Gunny vs. Shells, Uncle Max
Vic & Gunny, I always enjoy reading your posts. However, I have to side with Shells and Uncle Max here. 4 years of rampant liberalism could be a disaster. Our whole healthcare system could be changed forever-too hard to turn around once started. Higher taxes will stall the economy just in time for a republican to take office and get the blame.

However, my biggest argument is your assumption that a disaster from a liberal president will be portrayed as such by the MSM. They covered for Clinton at every turn-and I don't mean the Monica nonsense. They trumpeted every good piece of economic news while burying it in this administration. For goodness sake, the women's groups even blocked and tackled for that abuser and raper of women. Jimmy Carter is treated like a king whose every word we should hang on and take as gospel. As opposed to the nit wit we all know he is.

So I will vote for the person likely to do the least irreversible harm the next 4 years, McCain. Name me a government program or a government agency that has been abolished once in place.

The definition of irony...
The dumbest money I ever spent was on my annual dues to join Mensa. Burt's observations are spot on, in my experience anyway. A bunch of bitter sociophobes whose sole purpose seems to be to complain about not running the lives of those lesser folk with fewer years of education. It's kind of like joining the DNC, only with entrance requirements other than a checkbook!

Avoid Mensa like the plague
dcalf: "But the individuals I have met who claim Mensa membership tend to resonate with your experience."
------------------------
I couldn't agree more. Don't just walk, but run for the door.

I think it was Twain who said (rough paraphrase and even rougher memory), "Everyone I meet is in some way superior to me; from that, I learn."

Carlin
Shells: "On a side note, George Carlin is the ultimate piece of crap. I saw him in Vegas, paid a lot of money for the pleasure of really good seats and a good time. Turns out, Carlin came out with a script. A script."
-----------------------------
That's shocking. I haven't seen him in years. In his prime, there were few better.

Yes, I have a Mensa card and three earned college degrees. I don't put a lot of stock in either when it comes to raw intelligence.

Not only
can't they see us hold our noses, they deffinitely won't see the lack of a vote.
Votes for anyone else they will see.

Get that gun out of your mouth!
Gunny: "'Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone.'

SURELY you JEST! haha. None of the above have experienced critical thinking sicne the day they left diapers."
------------------------
If you haven't tried stand-up, you don't know how hard it is.

One of the funniest things was when Dennis Miller became a born-again conservative, and HBO would run his old monologues. The old Dennis would constantly and brutally skewer the new one, which is why he has been relegated to the scrap-heap of television.

Research is the key
Shells: "Oh, BeastieBoy? You said the smartest people you know are comedians like 'Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone.'

We all learned recently they can't think much without their writers."
----------------------------
To get to that position, they had to pay their own dues and write their own material. But then again, Russell used to say that he had the best comedy writers on the planet: the United States Government. :)

Stewart is razor-sharp, but good political comedy requires MONDO research. Colbert is beyond brilliant, as he showed at a recent Bush-roast, but "the Word" takes a lot of work. Rickles was amazing, and totally off-the-cuff.

engineering
Doodle and C Minor are both right on. Went to vocational high school for machine shop/tool and die making. I was miles ahead when I went for mechanical engineering. When I started work as an engineer, I found that a lot of good ideas came from the shop floor. Eventually went to law school. After 30 years in practice as a patent attorney, I am consistently amazed by how many basically useless people with high IQ make it through both engineering and law schools. Most can't read a drawing or write a paragraph. Stock up on canned beans, gold and shotgun shells.

Burt
Burt,intelligence,mixed with an equal portion of common sense, is unbeatable. Unfortunately,we seem to not see much of that these days. As to the "presumed nominee",sorry no can do.

If you want to find the 'normal' people
in Mensa, don't waste your time at the meetings. Go straight to the SIG's. That is where you find the best of Mensa.

I have never gone to a Mensa meeting. In light of all the bad anecdotes I have heard over the years, I doubt I ever will. But I have found several great people with which to debate/discuss issues of common interest in the Special Interest Groups.

IN my experience, Mensans are the same as everyone else, and the distribution of wisdom seems to me about the same as everywhere else. Witness that my informal survey of Mensans shows that about 5-10% support Ron Paul, therefore about 90-95% of Mensans are idiots, just like in the rest of this country.

engineering
C Minor is right on. Daughter went to Caltech in engineering and mathematics, then worked as prototype machinist for three years to learn what could really be done. Understandably, she's leagues ahead of more senior colleagues in engineering, all because of her practical experience. No interest in Mensa, though.

Gunny G is ...
...absolutely correct,Shells.The reason we keep getting the candidates that we do is because too many Republicans "hold their nose and vote".

When we vote,the political parties cannot see us holding our nose.All they can see is a vote,which sends a message:"We like what you are doing.Keep doing it".

I have NEVER held my nose and voted for anyone!

Question
BIGbelly writes:

Monday, February, 11, 2008 6:44 AM

"Thank you so much, you like me you really really like me, I'd also like to thank the academy for believing in and upstart neoconservative non-mensan who like Burt hates group meetings and took the test on a dare and failed, thus my IQ draining screaming irrelavance which is just me being jealous....appologises."

Um, exactly who or what are you referring to?

Flawed premise
You are implicitly assuming, Mr. Prelutsky, that members of Mensa are representative of high-IQ people in every regard. It is an easy intuitive argument to figure otherwise, however; that they are a self-selected group comprising people with 1) insufferable egos, 2) serious social wounds leading to a desire to segregate themselves, or (most likely) 3) both. In short, Mensa is a sample of high-IQ people that is skewed by self-selection.

There are probably some Mensa members who are delightful people and simply enjoy the company of others who are quick mentally. I certainly know people who would likely be eligible for Mensa, if they cared for that sort of thing, who are delightful people. But the individuals I have met who claim Mensa membership tend to resonate with your experience.

I don't know,but...
...it has been my observation that the most intelligent teachers and professors I had in school also were the most humourous.Since then,I have noticed that professional comedians,when discussing other subjects, were the most intelligent.

I think the two are closely related.

Shells
The main point of my not voting for McVain is that if he gets elected and then proceeds to do the RINO-thing, or Democrat-lite, as he will, (his track record proves it), the WE get the blame from the liberal media. If Obambi gets elected, HE does the damage and the LIBS get the blame. If we survived Jimmy Carter, we can survive Obambi, but whether the libs survive it is the question!

I respect your choice but until we STOP holding our noses and voting for these pusbags, the RNC will keep sending them to us. The RNC learned NOTHING from 06.

GunnyG and Burt
With all due respect, because you and I are on the same side of life here, I'm letting you know I've decided to vote for my party, warts and all, on election day.

I'm choosing to vote for McShame and give him a 4 year probation period to see if he indeed will do as he is now saying: Building a fence, cut government spending, making tax cuts permanent.

I figure it won't hurt giving him a try. If it doesn't work out, we don't vote for him for the remaining 4 years. If he's good on his word, all the better for us, right?

If we allow Barak Hussein to be POTUS, say hello to the fairness doctrine, say hello to high taxation, say hello to every entitlement program known to man, and say goodbye to our military, say goodbye to our triumphs in Iraq, say goodbye to us being a world power. We will be weak, poor, pissed, and in danger.

I'm giving McShame a try, as much as I dislike to, because one can only hope for a better circumstance with him. You can't with Barak or Hillbillary---and the damage may be too grave to recover.


Beastie Boy
"Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone."

SURELY you JEST! haha. None of the above have experienced critical thinking sicne the day they left diapers.

Leftists out think anyone! bahahahahaaha! Yeah, they've really come up with new ideas for government huh? Socialism and more mandatory taxation/redistribution programs.

I'm waiting for that last liberal collective brain cell to die from loneliness.

148 IQ Here, And Sticking To It
However, I took the test again a week later and I got a 114. Then I took it again a month later and got 124. I don't hold much water with tests like that.

Oh, BeastieBoy? You said the smartest people you know are comedians like "Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone."

We all learned recently they can't think much without their writers.

On a side note, George Carlin is the ultimate piece of crap. I saw him in Vegas, paid a lot of money for the pleasure of really good seats and a good time. Turns out, Carlin came out with a script. A script. He said to us, "Vegas audiences are the scum of the earth and a simply a test market. I will be reading my material for my HBO special coming up, and if you don't like it, F*CK YOU F*CK YOU F*CK YOU!!!"

He sat on a stool for an hour, reading from a script. Pure friggin genius, right?

Oh and the 911 Truther, Rosie, is smart? I have to wonder Beastie, what's your IQ?

BTW ALL
Just posted the Top 10 most corrupt politicians in 2007.

Of course, 70% of them are Dhimmicrats and William "Freezer Money" Jefferson did not even make the list.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/

We're filleting liberals at the Anti-Liberal Zone! (Actually, they're too afraid to show up! haha)

Uncle Max
Actions speak louder than words.

McShamnesty is a Democrat in GOP clothing. There IS little difference between him and the Hildabeast.

Please follow our reasoning here. Many of us would rather see "Barack Abominable" (GOOD ONE Burt!) get elected and pull a Jimmy Carter. That gives the GOP four years to shed the bottom feeding RINOs and put up a REAL Conservative ticket. NO MORE RINOS

I agree...
with your assessment Burt. I am one of those folks who, the minute you tell me to be somewhere at a particular time, always has something better to do.

Support groups are a pet peeve of mine and during the time I was going through treatment for breast cancer, my doctors just couldn't understand my unwillingness to be "helped" by one.

Dwelling on the negative and/or being reminded of it is not the way I choose to deal with life's trials.

Now, that being said Burt, are you trying to send a subliminal suggestion that some of us out here are just joining a "Maverick" group of conservatives because we want to be heard by the party that used to represent our political views?

Not the case Burt, at least for me. It is a matter of self respect. I cannot vote for someone just because the really "smart people" tell me it is the right thing to do.

it's how a person reacts to his high i.q
I think people who must advertise their I.Q.s, and join groups such as mensa, are a bit too full of themselves.

Now, I am not here to dismiss the importance of intelligence, cognitive ability, or I.Q. scores.

They matter. They matter alot. Intelligence may have a number of attributes. People talk about "emotional intelligence", as well as what most view as "traditional intelligence", which some may broadly define as ability to understand concepts and the application of them to specific situations and problems.

Intelligence is important. But, as a previous poster recognizes, character also is important.

What is intolerable are those who think their high intelligence is something they themselves created.

They had nothing do with it. It is a blessing, a gift, something they were born with. Intelligence is largely inheritable...genetic.

Such a realization might make those few among them who have a childish need to "lord it over" their less fortunately endowed brothers, to be a bit more modest.


yes Burt
Mensa meetings had proven again that female intelligence is inversely proportional to looks :)

the IQ trap
My field of Engineering is a bastion of the "I have intelligence, what do I need wisdom for?" thinking.

It's hard to train out of new engineers. If someone has been running a piece of equipment for 20 years don't tell them what to do: tell them what you want done and then listen as they tell you the way they'd do it. It's probably not the first time they've seen the job. But try to convince a walking calculator of that...

Oh yes, and I learned this the hard way too. Fortunately there are enough operators in my family that I had most of it out of my system before I graduated.

the fact remains that
facts are stubborn things

And if those of you who are so deeply offended by the fact that Sen. McCain is the presumptive Republican candidate for President decide to sit out this election in protest the presidency will probably go to a man who has the enthusiastic endorsement of an organization that has publicly called General David Petraeus a traitor.

Hold your nose and cast your vote

please

Third Party Effects
Burt -

You refer in this article to the fact that twice in the last four elections a third-party candidate has achieved enough of a vote split to elect an opposing candidate. This can be avoided by Instant Runoff Voting, as is done in Australia and in a few American cities. It makes a lot of sense, and well thought-out approaches are presented on at least two websites:

http://www.fairvote.org/?page=185
http://accuratedemocracy.com/c_irv.htm

It amazes me that, with all of the time and energy millions put into political pursuits, so little is done about a problem that frequently subverts our entire election system. I've written to two other columnists - Sowell and Will - but haven't seen any writings on this. So, Burt - please step ahead of your peers and follow through on this!

Resemble that remark?
Phd/JD: "Academics are the absolute worst -- no common sense and superiority complex."
------------------------------
Unintentional humor, from someone with THAT nym. :) "I don't mean to brag, but I have more letters after my name than I do IN my name!"

Academicians are expected to think the unthinkable and say the unsayable, which to me is intellectually stimulating.



The brightest people I know
are comedians. Ann Coulter barely qualifies, as she is more of an inadvertent one.)

Maher, Colbert, Stewart, Carlin, Rosie, and the legend Mark Russell can out-think just about anyone.

Insufferable
BP: " There and then, I decided that high IQs are highly over-rated, and that when it comes to evaluating a person’s worth, it makes about as much sense to judge them by their phone numbers or their zip codes!"
--------------------------
I judge people by the content of their character, which is why I despise Shrillary, Don Juan McCon, and pretty much any and every politician I can think of.

Ivy league grads have attitudes installed by a proctologist. Bush got his at Bendover.

Let your "yes" mean yes and your "no" mean no. Ron Paul.

I hate holding office
The only time I've held public office is when I've been drafted. My standard stump speech is, "If someone else wants this job, I'll be happy to stand down."

I suspect that that's why I keep getting drafted -- in politics, the best person for the job is someone who doesn't really want it.

I can't even give away my precinct chair job. :(

Ann has made A CAREER out of going
too far!

John Konop: "Did Ann go too far?"

Screamboat Annie makes a living by saying what most folks would only say behind the cloak of Internet anonymity. The difference between prostitutes and lawyers is that the former still has something like a sense of shame. :)

The Mensa experience
Still have my Mensa card somewhere. What a waste!

Basically, it is a group of people who need to have their egos stroked because they did better than the peons on a standardized I.Q. test.

If you think they are bad, just try hanging out with federal judges (see this one for a particularly good laugh: http://www.knowyourcourts.com/Nottingham/Nottingham.htm).

Burt has yet to learn that lesson, I fear. He still has an ego the size of a Third World country.

Latebloomer
Thank you so much, you like me you really really like me, I'd also like to thank the academy for believing in and upstart neoconservative non-mensan who like Burt hates group meetings and took the test on a dare and failed, thus my IQ draining screaming irrelavance which is just me being jealous....appologises.

Coulter Hitler and mcCain?

Unlike McCain, Hitler ‘Had a Coherent Tax Policy,’ Coulter Says

Did Ann go to far?

CNS-In a speech at the Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washington, D.C., Friday, just down the hall from the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), author Ann Coulter said that the primary difference between Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Adolf Hitler was that Hitler “had a coherent tax policy.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/unlike-mccain-hitl er-had-a-coherent-tax-policy-coulter-says



The cure for bitter
people with high IQ's is to get into fields like engineering, where pretty much everybody is pretty sharp. There is nearly always someone around who is smarter in some way than you are. I was eligible for Mensa, but am not a joiner. I have an unaccountable dislike for having my time scheduled, and going to a "meeting" is the worst. My sister joined, but quickly de facto dropped out. Some folks enjoy being a member, though, and more power to them.

And so early in the day, too
Then award for IQ draining screaming irrelevancy goes to...Bigbelly!

So
is the plural of a mensa, menses? Burt, maybe you just caught them at the wrong time of the month. It's a bit rude of you to rag on them so much though.

Fear and trembling, however, at the good ship P.M.S. Hillary looking to dock at the White House.

I know, pretty crude, but I tried to resist, really I did.

IQ is overrated
Academics are the absolute worst -- no common sense and superiority complex. Character is much more important.

Burt The Conservative Mensan
Dude, I'm so "stoked" that you're a "Conservative Mensan", I've decided to vote for Radar O'Reilly for President man. He knows everything man, woooooo! wait I think I hear chopper's man...Dude these Mensan weed cookies are amazing man.

Vic
What are dems?
That party doesn't exist anymore. It is now the Socialist or Communist party!

I am a conservative and NOT a
Republican. Bravo, people need to be repeating that to the party hacks who are screaming that we will let the Dems win by not supporting McLame.

when i was younger
i thought there was nothing greater than high intelligence. then life happened, and i started noticing that the higher the conceit of high intelligence in a person, the bigger the blunders committed by those with that conceit, highly intelligent people can do shockingly stupid things, usually because of their too arrogant to realize just how fallible they can be. i also noticed that the higher the intelligence, the greater the propensity for cunning, blind cruelty, deception and self-deception, so the higher the IQ in a person, the more careful one has to be around them.

i now think there is nothing higher and rarer than true goodness of heart. true goodness is the rarest of qualities in people, it can't be faked and it sparkles like sunshine and makes you love humanity again when you see it. although usually the truly good and kind person is not quite as bright and intelligent as one wishes she would be.

Burt wrote:

"There and then, I decided that high IQs are highly over-rated ... "
*****
Burt: Right on -- and write on!

I feel better now.

Five stars!

...
though your conclusion is partly correct (see below) your sample is biased. many people with high iqs never try to joing mensa, and only the most desperate seek to socialize with other mensa members. though i handily qualified for mensa when i was a high-school freshman i refused to join it (yes, you can take the test without joining) let alone attend the meetings.

as far as iqs are concerned, that characteristic is for the most part uncorrelated with other personality characteristics (there is a lot of research on this topic). that being said, people with high iqs are on average happier, have more money and stuff like that.

I like that line:
'let's judge people by their phone numbers.'

You didn't say area codes, (breathe a sigh of relief - that would be as bad as zip codes!)

But which part? 111-2222 the 1s or 2s?

I kind of like the 2s myself. More egalitarian.

Besides, if we did judge by the 1s, we get all those television snobs with 555- !!!!
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