Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, June 28, 2009
Bruce Bialosky :: Townhall.com Columnist
Kill the VAT Now and Forever
by Bruce Bialosky
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


The current rage amongst the intellectual elite is that we should join our European friends and put in place a national sales tax, commonly referred to as a Valued Added Tax (VAT). If we adopt this form of taxation, you might as well prepare for the death knell of both our economy and our freedom.

It should be noted that some smart people are in favor of this tax form and they have good arguments. A few years back, I saw Arthur Laffer give a speech to the California Republican Party where he whole-heartedly endorsed the VAT. If you are not familiar with him, Dr. Laffer is the creator of the Laffer curve and quite a brilliant man. He is also a wonderfully nice and personable man, especially noteworthy for an economist most of whom can be duller than the typical CPA.

When I went up to him, I told him he was dead wrong about the VAT. Instead of blowing me off, this internationally-known economist said he would love to hear my thoughts. What ensued was a series of correspondence between him and me. Laffer sent me these wonderful letters with charts and graphs explaining why the VAT made sense. There were arrows and square root symbols flying all over the place. I in turn sent him my thoughts. Despite the fact he is a lot smarter than I am, he was wrong and I was right.

The major issue is that the VAT is an invisible tax. You never see it. The rate can be adjusted and you would only blame retailers for the increased prices. Think of gasoline taxes. If you stand around the pump and asked people about the cost of gas, they would say things about oil companies which make their mothers want to get the nearest bar of soap. But if you state that the government is making a lot more on a gallon of gas than the oil company is, they are clueless. The oil company even posts signs on the pump delineating the taxes, but people ignore them.

Review your phone bill and see how you are getting raped. And this is not even a totally invisible tax. It sits in front of your face and most people don’t even see it. The VAT is totally invisible. You never see it directly in your cost unless you collect it. Therefore, it can be easily manipulated. For instance, the rate in Denmark has gradually been raised from 9% at its inception in 1962 until today where it is 25%.

Yet the Danes love it because when they go to restaurant, they pay the price on the menu for their meal. Included is the tax plus the service. In the U.S. the sales tax slaps you in the face and then you have the choice of what you may additionally leave for service (tip) based on the waiter’s performance. This is the difference between a socialist society where decisions are being made for you and a free society where you make your own decisions.

Every tax revolt in this society has been over transparent taxes. The two taxes most rebelled against are auto license fees and property taxes. The reason is simple: people write a check for these taxes and know how much they are paying. When they know how much they are paying, people realize they are not getting what they are paying for in taxes. Why don’t people revolt against income taxes more? The answer is also very simple. Most have their taxes withheld from their paycheck. The ones who really get upset are the ones who write quarterly checks. Unfortunately, when it comes to filing their taxes, even the smartest people don’t ask how much they are paying in taxes. They ask whether they have a refund coming. When that question is asked, you know that the taxman has them under his boot.

Dr. Laffer accepted this argument that in my mind is good enough to stick a knife through this evil incarnate. The biggest problem with Dr. Laffer’s arguments is that he wants to replace the income tax system with VAT. That will never happen. The crowd who wants to put this in place wants this to supplement the current income tax system with the VAT. They promise a reduction in other taxes, but do you trust Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi when they tell you that? Enough said there.

Lastly, you have to understand where this tax comes from to understand why it is so bad. First, it was invented by a Frenchman, Maurice Laure. Not everything the French have every done is bad. After all, there was Louis Pasteur and Lafayette. But do you see the French as a model for running a government? The Nordic states love it, but they are all on the edge of socialism and choice has gone out the window in those countries.

The big promoter of the VAT these days is Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of President Obama’s political henchman, Rahm Emanuel. Just what the world needs right now is another Emanuel fishing for our money. This Emanuel is a bioethicist who is advising Obama on nationalizing our health care system. He states he wants the VAT so they can have more revenue to pay for the health care system that needs all that new money that Obama will not be saving by nationalizing our health care.

The more taxes are transparent, the less people are willing to have their freedom taken away by having their money taken away. Politicians like invisible taxes which you don’t see or write a check for; thus they are not bothersome. The VAT would not replace our income tax system; it would just give more of our money to the power freaks in Washington. Kill this ugly tax before it gets off the ground and throws our economy into a tailspin.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Bruce Bialosky is the founder of the Republican Jewish Coalition of California and a former Presidential appointee.
VAT vs. "The Fair Tax"
Certainly, the American populace should be leery of the "VAT". It should also educated in the difference between the Fair Tax and the VAT. There's enough DISINFORMATION about the issue, and we obviously can't depend on the "watchdog media" to deliver truth. It necessarily falls to others to inform the public. Honestly! Thanks for this, but I hoope you will amend the information with the WHOLE truth about the "Fair Tax" and potentially the greatest transfer of power from government to the people in human history! Give us the WHOLE TRUTH!

VAT
Adding a value added tax on top of our current tax system is insane. We are in total agreement on that. I wouldn't trust 99 out of 100 people in DC politics as far as a 3 year old could throw them.

As to scrapping our current tax code and instituting a VAT or some similar fair tax being a good or bad move...

If properly written and executed it would be the single best thing we could do--if written loosely you are right it could be a fiasco. But give me a break, how hard would it be to have language that addresses the issue's that concerned you the most. Certainly there would be some unforeseen consequences as there would be in any new endeavor. However again the fix is simple-a simple one line authority to make corrections as needed

I'll Take VAT

If ALL other taxes and fees are abolished.

We already have
a de-facto VAT tax,in that every time a product is sold to each business on its' way to its' final destination on the shelf,the tax liability incurred of each business is passed on;ultimately to the consumer. Invisible indeed...

I say..
kill the tax on individual income and let supply side economics fix the rest. Supply-siders should should trumpet this concept as loudly as possible until we regain control from the idiots in charge now.

patriot one
How about a gas tax to pay for the war in Iraq?

L'Internationale - I
Arise, wretched of the earth
Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean
Masses, slaves, arise, arise
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common welfare
So that the thief expires,
So that the spirit be pulled from its prison,
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot


This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

The state represses and the law cheats
The tax bleeds the unfortunate
No duty is imposed on the rich
'Rights of the poor' is a hollow phrase
Enough languishing in custody
Equality wants other laws:
No rights without obligations, it says,
And as well, no obligations without rights

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

Hideous in their self-glorification
Kings of the mine and rail
Have they ever done anything other
Than steal work?
Into the coffers of that lot,
What work creates has melted
In demanding that they give it back
The people wants only its due.

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race


L'Internationale - II
The kings make us drunk with their fumes,
Peace among ourselves, war to the tyrants!
Let the armies go on strike,
Stocks in the air, and break ranks
If these cannibals insist
On making heroes of us,
Soon they will know our bullets
Are for our own generals

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race

Labourers, peasants, we are
The great party of workers
The earth belongs only to men
The idle will go reside elsewhere
How much of our flesh they feed on,
But if the ravens and vultures
Disappear one of these days
The sun will always shine

This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race



And, didn't it work out swell, especially since the Crème de la Crème made out like bandits.

They still do.


And, how is it that us anti-Feds agree with a lot of L'Internationale?

In hindsight ...
In light of the various things that have happened over the years in the US, perhaps a time machine needs to be built (reckon a tax payer funded grant could be put together?) to go back and tell the Founding Fathers to include a few extra things in the constitution. Perhaps, "No tax can be levied that is not obvious to the person paying it" would be a good start. I can think of a couple of others (Govt is never allowed to directly run anything except the army and law enforcement comes to mind).

I disagree
The reason people rebel against auto license fees and property taxes is because these are local taxes and local representatives are much more sensitive to their constituents demands.

There have been people who have tried, some with very valiant efforts, to rebel against income taxes all to no avail. The reason is because when you rebel against the income tax, you are dealing with the Federal Internal Revenue Service. These henchmen have more power than the President to ruin lives, and they are not the least bit intimidated by anyone.

Income tax is one of the most invisible taxes I can think of. Yes, the amount is displayed on your pay stub, along with city, state, and county taxes, deductions for health insurance, 401K, parking, life insurance and other deductions. With all those numbers and abbreviations, all printed in a space about the size of a postage stamp, it is very difficult to decipher how much is going to whom.

I would never agree to a national sales tax unless there was a Constitutional amendment permanently prohibiting an income tax because eventually, no matter what promises were made, the people would end up paying both.

With an amendment in place prohibiting income tax, I think funding government with a sales tax ONLY is a good idea. It gives people some control. If you think government is being careless with money, you cut back on all spending except essentials. You can call for a national boycott by taxpayers so that everyone reduces their discretionary spending.

It is certainly a better alternative than what we have now when all we can do is complain and the only response we get is more spending. With the income tax, people have absolutely no control over what they pay or how much is spent.

sciphi
Even if they added such lines. What would it matter. The income tax was unconstitutional. The constitution was amended to allow for income tax. So, it probably wouldn't have mattered what else they might have written into the constitution.

"The major issue is that the VAT is ..
an invisible tax."

If that's your beef (and I doubt it), then rail against withholding taxes. Think what writing a check every month for income tax (and Social Security and ....) would do! Tea parties? Millions in the streets more like it.

VAT is a consumption tax. As such, it is regressive (i.e. flat--it's great to have control of the vocabulary!). By taxing consumption, it encourages savings--an absolute requirement these days.

There ARE arguments against VAT. They're not in this article.

Bonjour Mon Ami, Mellor!

Of course, you make sense.

Why is it that I agree with a lot of L'Internationale?

The government screws us all of the time. Fiats, Politburos, Tsars, and a "King".

Give me Capitalism or give me DEATH!

Be careful what you wish for, Denise


For it won't be glorious, but (at this rate) in poverty :(

(Back from France. And on a diet :)

Mon Ami, Mellor
"Be careful what you wish for, Denise"

I only wish for liberty, freedom, no tryanny, and Capitalism. Alas, these are being denied to us.

"For it won't be glorious, but (at this rate) in poverty :("

Poverty for all except the elites.

"(Back from France. And on a diet :)"

Sorry about you leaving France, but a diet does a body good. Me? 5'6" and 101 pounds.

But, I DO love you!

Then there is but one solution

"Poverty for all except the elites."

Become a member of the elite :)


Me? 1m70 and 67kg (gulp!)

Against the VAT
As a business owner, I can see customers reacting very negatively to the higher price of goods that would obviously be charged. Even if the rise in prices is solely due to a higher tax rate, the result is a higher-priced product. Customers would have to be constantly reminded that that the govt is collecting all it's taxes through the products consumers purchase, but it still boils down to the fact that the products I sell seem very expensive all of a sudden. Believe me, most products that people buy are price elastic -- meaning that as prices go up, they will buy less of it. If that designer purse doubles in price do people buy less of it? Most likely.

taxes
VAT and flat taxes are regressive taxes which tax the poor more than the rich in relation to their respective assets. Tiered or progressive taxation is more equal for people in all levels of the economy.The more you make,the more you pay.

Mellor at 1230
I disagree. The fact that VAT is a hidden tax is enough in itself to disqualify it. Nothing further needs to be said.

I repeat, David

"If that's your beef (and I doubt it), then rail against withholding taxes."

VAT vs Income taxes
Bruce Bialosky compares apples to oranges when he compares a "Fair Tax" proposal or VAT in the US to what is going on in Denmark.

In Denmark and Germany they have both a high VAT and high Income taxes

QUOTE "Young Danes, often schooled abroad and inevitably fluent in English, are primed to quit Denmark for greener pastures. One reason is the income tax rate, which can reach 63 percent."

Source = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/business/worldbusiness/0 5iht-labor.4.8603880.html

a VAT of as high as 25% would be lower then many peoples income tax rates.

Also becuase corporations pass on the cost of corporate income taxes to the consumer there is already a hidden tax cost in each item we buy.

With the corporate tax removed from the price it would not neccesarily mean higher prices to add the VAT in plus we would all keep more of our pay and by adjusting spending and saving habits could adjust our individual tax rates.

As to people not knowing how much they are paying in VAT taxes that is a bogus arguement because number would be public for those that care and how many know what their income tax rate is? How many people think they are better off getting a large income tax return without understanding that they gave the Government a tax free loan of their money all year to get that return?

However, I agree with Ms Kelly that posted earlier that I would only support a VAT or Fair Tax plan if the 16th Amendment was repealed first. Otherwise we WOULD end up like Denamark and pay both.

Rob




Mellor
Apples to Oranges to some degree, at least regarding the transparency issue. We do have an accounting once a year on our total withholding, and many do pay attention to it.

I'm not a defender of our current tax policies, but the idea that what we have now is supremely flawed (which it is) then means that we should enact addition flawed policies is a non-starter to me.

It doesn't take a very vivid imagination to envision the mischief that could be created by our politicians given this new toy.

You say "you doubt" that's my real beef with VAT. I'm curious what you think my real motivation is, and how you devined that from a two sentence post?

VAT
What we see in Portugal, where IVA has gone from 11% to 16% to 17% to 19% to 21% under alternating Socialist and Social Democrat governments, is wholesale evasion.

Any workman, mechanic, builder, will give you a price for a job, but if you want an invoice, he will either turn down the job or charge a much higher fee. Tax evasion is a passtime throughout the EU because of the high taxes and fees levied on business.

We have 42% income tax, 35.5% withholding tax and 20% IVA, and the more they raise the rates, the bigger the deficit gets.

Fun, ain't it?

13th Amendment vs 16th Amendment
The 16th Amendment does allow for taxation of income but the 13th Amendment says:

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So when a businessman is forced to collect tax money for the gov, and pay the expense of collecting that money (i.e the accountant fees for payroll deductions etc)is not that person forced to "involuntary servitude"?

David, David, David

"You say "you doubt" that's my real beef with VAT. I'm curious what you think my real motivation is, and how you devined that from a two sentence post?"

No.

I quoted my previous post that referred to the author of this misleading article, which was rather longer than two sentences, eh?

I am in complete agreement with Joel and
tinsldr2...the gov't gets into every aspect of our lives when they have the ability to tax.
As Jefferson said, "the ability to tax is the ability to destroy".

Why for instance should a state collect a sales tax on a used car sale between private parties?
It was taxed once already, the tax is supposed to be collected by a dealer, it's not any of their business what you and I agree to AND they'll set an arbitrary price as well.

That is a form of VAT and it hurts us NOW, why add another cut in the slow death of the nation?


Mellor
Point taken - reread your post.

Your idea, for instance, of requiring a monthly check in lieu of witholding would focus the mind - I don't doubt that. But that's not what we have.

There are a lot of issues we have with tax policy in this country, and I doubt we'll fix most of them. A VAT would make things worse, in my opinion, and that is not changed by the bad policies we have now.

Those may be relevant if there was any chance of a VAT replacing something else - and anyone who believes that is a prospect could then debate the pros and cons.

I'm of the belief that a VAT, if enacted, would be a supplement rather than a substitute for our current schemes, so in my mind it must stand on it's own. I think it's terrible as a free standing idea, specifically for it's lack of transparency issues.

withholding & hidden taxes
If the concern is with taxes being "invisible" then the current system of withholding taxes is far, far worse than having an itemized receipt that (by mandate of law) has a single, separate line item saying "federal taxes: $XX.XX". Most folks I know don't don't even look at the tax component on their pay-stub because they don't want to know what kind of car they're buying the government this year. That's the equivalent of their payroll taxes, but because they never see it, "it doesn't exist".

When Canada introduced the GST (Goods and Services Tax) several years ago there were a large number of complaints from folks who didn't want to see the amount of taxes that they were paying. The GST replaced hidden taxes that varied by item with a flat rate tax that had to be listed after a subtotal of all relevant items. The only place in Canada where I regularly find the GST included in the overall price is at gas pumps, where they are still explicitly listed on the receipts.

Oh, and Canada's Conservative government campaigned on reducing the GST, (the Liberal party before they had campaigned on it's removal). The Conservatives kept their promise, and the former 7% tax is now down to 5%. Any tax is raisable by a government that wants to do so, but I've heard a lot of positive comments about this highly visible reduction.

secondary
I would have have a consumption tax like a VAT than a production tax (like income tax - especially graduated income tax). If someone wants to save up their money then why should the government take a tithe off the top?

I agree with David that having individuals send in their withholding tax directly wouldn't work (unless one wants the IRS to be 10 times bigger than it is now and have more policing powers), so I'd rather replace some of the incentive to not earn as much with an incentive to save.

Mellor

They keep moving the elitist goalposts. Now, you just have to be a member of the Politburo.

caArchitect

If consumers knew that they would pay no other taxes and fees (State & Federal), don't you think that they would agree wholeheartedly to say a 20% VAT?

I sure as Hell would.

THE ANTI LIBERAL ZONE
RIPS a new lie from Comrade Barry and in the spirit of Affirmative Action (how barry became potus BTW), the ALZ RIPS the eight traitors of the GOP and has NEW INFORMATION on Judas McHugh of NY.

Click on my handle to check it out.

Fair Tax Vs. Income Tax
To be specific the proposed Fair Tax requires that the 16th Ammendment be repealed. Second, the Fair tax has a prebate referenced to the "Poverty Rate". That is to say each person, with an SSN, would receive a check or direct deposit to their bank account by the government. Third, Sales Taxes are a state tax instead of a federal tax. Fourth, the Wealthy would pay their share of the taxes since they would have the most events that would cost money. Fifth, the proposed Fair Tax only is concerning new items. That is to say if you purchase a new houe you are charged the sales tax but if you purchase an old house there is no Federal Sales tax. Sixth, it still charges the illegal aliens, the people that are being "Paid Under the Table" and those that are here as a tourist the Federal Sales tax. If you need more on this subject there is a book by Neal Boortzs and John Linder on this subject.

Tax reform we need
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the only ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects it, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
You cannot convince a person or corporation to start a new business or expand an existing business, increase jobs, and hire new employees, when you tax away the capitol he is using to operate his PRESENT business
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.

FairTax vs VAT
The FairTax is nothing like the proposed VAT, except that both are based on consumption.

Where the VAT is a hidden tax, the FairTax is designed to be "in your face", where the true cost of government can't be concealed from the public.

Where the VAT is easily manipulated by corrupt politicians and their lobbyist supporters, the FairTax is a single-rate, national tax that would be almost impossible to secretly change or to use in social engineering projects favoring one group over another.

Where the VAT is applied at each stage of the manufacturing process, getting larger with each step, the FairTax is applied only at the retail level, and is paid by the consumer.

Where the VAT is highly regressive, falling on the poor in a disproportionate fashion, the FairTax provides everyone with a prebate to offset the taxes on purchases up to the poverty level. In other words, under the FairTax, no one, rich or poor, pays taxes on the necessities. Under the VAT, the poor pay a largest percentage of their income in taxes then the rich.

Any attempt to equate the FairTax with a VAT is sheer chicanery, and either indicates an abhorable level of ignorance, or a deliberate attempt at obfuscation.

Still, anyone who wants to "kill" the VAT can't be all bad!

All Things Not Considered
When one considers any government policy, one must contemplate all factors. This requirement does not extend to hack columnists as Bialosky so eloquently demonstrates.

One thing he blatantly leaves out is the effects on trade. Now U.S. goods are shipped to Europe where they are sold, and a VAT is paid. Then the corporation pays U.S. income tax. Meanwhile European corporations ship their goods here, pay little to no tariff and no VAT, and they pay no income tax on their profits. This puts U.S. companies at a considerable disadvantage. Replacing income tax with VAT would eliminate that disadvantage.

There are other factors also that Bialosky ignorantly fails to consider. Meanwhile Biolosky complains about incompetents in Washington.

By repealing
all the hundreds or thousands hidden indirect taxes before enacting the VAT, we MIGHT come out equal to what we have now, because govt needs only one tax to fund its legitimate costs. Any additional tax is for illegitimate use.

Dave
You didn't read the entire article as that very "rebuttal" was covered. Corporate income taxes won't go away or get cut (too many will cry about giving corporations special breaks), all that will happen is a VAT will be added right on top of it. So, what, we remove the VAT on exports and we're right back to where we are today. Some progress.

The biggest reason the VAT will be a disaster for America is that the VAT is biased against products with long lead times. It will accomplish little more than giving foreign competitors a major boost in our markets as now they're competing against an even more expensive American product. The USA is a major exporter of heavy machinery and computer electronics, both of which have lengthy production schedules. A VAT adds a tax for each "value" added in each step. The more steps you have, the higher your tax goes. This is why you don't see much manufacturing going on in Europe, the VAT wiped them out. When the VAT goes up, the domestic sales decline and it increases costs overseas due to the loss of economics of scale. Fewer units = higher per unit costs. The last thing the US needs are fewer manufacturing jobs and more imports.

The only way the USA can function under a VAT system is if we either eliminate production jobs or dramatically reduce our salaries. The sad reality is you can't have a prosperous and wealthy society and high taxes at the same time. You have to chose which one you want, high taxes, low salaries and central control or low taxes, high salaries and no control.

Rubbish, Justin

Amongst several egregious errors, Justin falsely claims "The more steps you have, the higher your tax goes."

Nope.

I sell a product for $200 from primary inputs worth $100. If the VAT is 20%, I collect the tax on the $100 value I added: $20.

If I instead add $50 of value and sell it to you, I collect $10 in tax for the guv'mint. If you then add another $50, for a total value of $200, you also collect $10 for the guv'mint.

Total value added $100. Total tax $20 (@ 20%).

Number of steps? Irrelevant.

Obama and the VAT
So the Duce wants to impose a VAT along with the other taxes he wants to lay upon the people. To all you Obamistas out there I ask, is this the "change we can believe in"? If you believe that, then there is an expression popular down in the islands that would be appropriate: Hey, mon, you be smokin' some pretty good stuff!

Joel-De Oppresso Liber - Fairtax Part I
Normally Joel, I agree with your work. However, you do not have all of the facts straight here.

"The Fair Tax proposal involves a prebate. This is based on "average monthly consumption" as determined by some D.C. drone."

The average monthly consumption is determined by the federal poverty level. People under the poverty level are currently not paying taxes anyhow, but there are a number OVER the poverty level that are not paying them.


"For any tax to be Constitutional, EVERYONE in the nation must pay it. Everyone here benefits from the protection our military provides, ergo, everyone needs to pay."

Everyone in America WILL be paying it whenever they pay for something. Everyone in America will also be getting back an amount equal to the taxes they would pay up to the poverty level.

Joel - FairTax II
"Your so called 'Fair Tax' only taxes products, not services, and even then it makes exceptions for certain products. They want the rate to be at least 23%. Not only is this unConstitutional, it is politically untenable."

YOur first statement is COMPLETELY incorrect. THe Fair Tax is assessed on services as well as goods. The only thing currently listed as exempt from the Fair Tax is educational costs, i.e. college tuition. The rate of 23% was determined to be revenue-neutral to equal the share of what the government receives. Also, according to one of the primary studies the Fair Tax was based on, between 18 and 26% of every dollar spent on all goods and services RIGHT NOW goes to pay the tax burden of someone else. As for the "UnConstitutional and untenable" part, in relation to the fact that the government receives that level now, we are in full agreement.

Joel - FairTax Conclusion
"Any changes to our tax system must be done by Constitutional Amendment. If the change is done by passing a law, the next batch of liberals will just change it to make it worse. You will NEVER get 2/3 of this nation to approve a Constitutional Amendment to tax their purchases at 23%."

The Fair Tax agrees with you: one of the key proposals involved repaling the 16th Amendment.

As for the 2/3 needed, the prevailing theory of the Fair Tax is that once enacted and no further income taxes are charged (and the aforementioned embedded taxes are removed), retail prices will drop to a degree that assessing the 23% Fair Tax will be inconsequential compared to the facts that: Americans will get more money back in their pockets with every paycheck; businesses without the regressive costs of the payroll tax will be able to hire again; trillions of dollars now in offshore tax havens can comeback since the taxing that sent them there will be gone; businesses from other countries will be flooding here since we will now have the least-damaging tax base on earth; and those who avoid paying anything into the tax system now (criminals, illegal aliens, tax-dodging of all types and stripes) will be adding to the tax base every time they go to the store.

I am a supporter of the Fair Tax, and though I still see some flaws in it that I would like to see more fully addressed before sending it into law, I think it CAN BECOME a way to rebuild our economy.

VAT
V--VERY
A--AGGRESSIVE
T--TAXATION

NOT TO REPLACE INCOME TAX
BUT
TO BE IN ADDITION TO ALREADY EXISTING TAXES

Stop to think what it would be like for a Country's government to take ALL money from it's people and then that government issues 'coupons' (food stamps sound familiar?) for only what government decides each individual can use them for.
Never happen? Who would have thought that in 6 months a government would put their Country and their taxpayers in TRILLIONS of taxpayer dollars of debt, run the financial industry, the auto industry, soon the energy industry and the health care industry, cut Military Missle Defense while Iran and North Korea are building nuclear weapons, disregard the Country's Constitution by 'unlawfully' seizing the monetary compensation spelled out in LEGAL contracts, unlawfully fire an Inspector General because he was investigating a friend of the Country's president?
AND next up, for the next 6 months that would Never happen--But will. VAT (Value Added Tax), which is actually Very Aggressive Taxation, Reparations, another 'Stimulus' Package, Mandatory (volunteer) Service and a Domestic Security Force (to keep the government and politicians safe from the 'fed up' taxpaying citizens.
GO AHEAD----STOP AND THINK---NEVER SAY NEVER

St. Denis

"I'll Take VAT If ALL other taxes and fees are abolished."

When that happens, butterflies will pour out my butt when I fart.

The federal government has lost all pretense of fiscal responsibility. It exists for one thing and one thing only: to buy votes with taxpayer money to keep greedy, power-hungry politicians in office.

Productive citizens - you know, those who pay the taxes - exist for one thing only: to support the ever-increasing population of "victims," parasites and illegals - you know the ones who pay no taxes and who vote for politicians who promise them a litany of wonders and goodies at the expense of others.


Bob_C

Of course, the Government (on all levels) will not give up their "right" to tax the living Hell out of us, the producers. Further, they want to create a two-tier level of taxation: Non-union workers would be forced to pay taxes on their medical benefits, but UNIONS? No way! They are exempt, but are they really? What about the union steelworker, who is married to a non-union legal secretary? They want to tax the HOUSEHOLD. This will hurt the Middle Class most of all and be a complete abdication of Obama's "95% will pay no new taxes" campaign pledge.

HA! We told them so last year!

By the way, it is completely unconstitutional and violates the 14th Amendment.

The VAT is insidious!!!!
It's invisible because it is added on at EACH transactional level. From raw materials, to manufacturer to distributor to wholesaler to retailer to consumer. A "tiny" VAT ends up being a big bite.


-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!

VAT will effect the retired
At a time when all of the baby boomers have paid and paid and paid income taxes, AND they are getting ready to retire so that they will not have income to be taxed, what pops up?????
The VAT!!!! They want you to pay until you die. They just keep changing the rules so that you will always pay.
Get rid of the bums. They are stealing from us all.

You failed third-grade math, Wrat?

The mind reels. The stomach heaves.

"It's invisible because it is added on at EACH transactional level. From raw materials, to manufacturer to distributor to wholesaler to retailer to consumer. A "tiny" VAT ends up being a big bite."

Almost as inane as, who was it?, Justin?

End it
Put an end
To tax, borrow, and spend!

Joel-With All due respect
OK, your assessment of a "DC drone" is true -- after all, it is DC bureaucrats who set the federal poverty level. Your assertion about "Equal Protection" is your assertion and will be your assertion regardless of my belief on the matter.

As for the "services" aspect of the FairTax, that's in Neal Boortz's and John Linder's books and all the pro-FairTax info you want can be found at Fairtax.org. Also, since 18-26% embedded taxes is found on every retail dollar spent for goods and services now (also in the book and at the site), and some pay as much as 1/3 to 1/2 of their income towards taxes, why is 23% such a ridiculous number? I find it unattractive, but not comparatively unacceptable.

In the CURRENT political environment? I wouldn't even recommend it because 23% wouldn't pay for what these idiots have already jammed down our throats, let alone what they still have in mind.

Those 50% wouldn't love the idea of more money in their pocket with every paycheck, getting a prebate check each month, and never having to go to H&R Block ever again except to check their investments?

The ones who will fight this will not be the 50%. It will be the less than 1% whom the current tax code benefits -- those in Congress (because the convoluted nature of the current tax code benefits their agenda), the lobbyists (because tax-code-based favors are a lot tougher to grant under these conditions) and the media (because we deign to take money from their hand-picked leadership). Unfortunately, those 1% have the loudest voices.

You're right about the fact that a revolution would have to take place, but the revolution will involve informing minds about what is possible -- and also, what is REALLY happening.

Fair Tax
The problem is it is way to complicated. America can and should operate on a flat 5% on all purchases of goods and services at the point of sale, no goofy prebate nonsense, no special provisions for certain goods and services, just a flat 5% fire and forget. Whatever it brings in is what is used for operations. If it isn't enough, Congress just needs to come up with a priorities list and work from the top down, cutting everything below that point.

This only works if every other revenue source is eternally shut down. No more borrowing, no more printing, no more taxes from any source other than the flat 5% at the register purchase.

That's how we, in the real world, have to live, so should Congress.

VAT allready passed by House
The cap and trade bill is even more punitive than a VAT conceptually. C&T taxes everyone who uses, manufactures, travels or ships, plus consumers of all products and services that involve production, use or consumption of fossil fuels directly or indirectly. Prices for all goods, services from the producers and refiners of crude oil, natural gas, and coal will be absorbed and passed on to the ultimate consumers.

VAT, fair tax, is a myth. C&T will operate as the largest and most inclusive tax increase in history.

Worse, follow the money to discover who are the beneficiaries from this most corrupt government action. It is the usual suspects, key Democrat supporters and corporations that will get windfall profits from this measure.

If C&T is passed and implemented, it will produce the largest transfer of wealth from the US and its citizens to global competitors and advocates for trans-national governance.

Imagine for a moment
Just how low would the percentage be, or either VAT or Fair Tax, to support the Federal Government, if said government spent money ONLY on Constitutionally mandated functions. THAT'S what we need to be looking at.

VAT/Fair Tax
I am not the one to defend the benefits of the Fair Tax verses the current income tax. The Fair Tax would be a amendment to the constitution which would eliminate the current income tax code. Also, corporations do not pay income taxes, they merely add the anticipated tax into the cost of manufacturing the goods. Also Billions of dollars earned by corporations are continually invested overseas as to bring them home to the US, the income, previously taxed in the foreign location, would be taxed again in the US. Under the Fair Tax, those funds can come home and be invested here. Also Foreign corporations can locate here, providing jobs without corporate taxes.

The current Fair Tax Bill, I believe has a cap built in and cannot be increase without a 66% majority.

Thanks for listening.

CA Architect
You state you would have to price your services higher. If the Fair Tax/VAT eliminates your income tax, along with payroll taxes you withhold or forward to the government, eliminates your cost of preparation of your tax return (you already send the state your sales taxes) then you price your services on a level playing field. Your competitor might have received a grant to get established. This puts you on a level playing field, true capitalism, compete and win. Price your services.

Taxes and Amounts
I read an article by an economist a couple of years ago that opened my eyes about taxes. Take the "Flat Tax" for instance. At that time, the economist said that a flat 11% tax would cover all existing government expenses - two years ago. The "Fair Tax" could do the same at about 12-14%. Both taxes are meant to replace ALL tax money the Federal Government now collects from all sources.

But the government then stated that the "Flat Tax" requirement was 17% or the "Fair Tax" was 25%! In other words, the Federal Government was willing to consider these taxes IF they were allowed to collect 50% to 100% more money from us, the taxpayers!

The VAT is a similar rip-off. Actually it is simply another tax they can raise until they fear that the taxpayers will be willing to commit murder to get away from it. Then they will think up another 'new' tax to do the same thing.

Incidently has anyone heard of the new 'road tax' they care considering in Mass.? It would tax you based on the total miles you drive every year rather than on the amount of gasoline you buy. This is supposed to force drivers of alternate fuel cars (electric) to pay taxes too. But they aren't talking of replacing the gasoline tax - just adding another new one. And Congress is seriously considering this new tax too.

Cut back on Spending?
Is that like cut back on using water, then the water company raises the price because you are using less water? That equals "spend less to save on paying taxes", and the tax rate will rise to get more of your money.

There is no such thing as Fair Tax, taxing is all the plan to take as much from us as they want to spend, and our greedy government never knows when to stop taxation.

Jefferson said the power to tax is the power to destroy, and we are being destroyed. If we do not get rid of Obama as our President, our nation will cease to exist by 2012. Look for 100% inflation as we had in 1975, and more ways to tax the poor, to enable the very rich to enjoy their billions. You could have elected Don Cordell as your president, you still can if we recall Illegal Alien Obama, and have a President that will Restore, not Change America.

Joel et al -- 16th amendment does not do
what you say it does. It does not make income tax constitutional, and repealing it does not make income tax unconstitutional. It only deals with a technical administrative detail of how the income tax is applied. There are two tax rules in the constitution. Direct taxes use the rule of apportionment. Apportionment was more important at the time of our country's creation because you had the 3/5th's rule for apportioning slaves. (Note also the constitution provides for "Indians not taxed" and it is not true that taxes must apply to EVERYONE to be constitutional.) The other rule is the rule of uniformity for "duties imposts and excises". The 16th amendment effectively overturned a supreme court decision that said that a tax on income from dividends or rents was a direct tax that had to use the apportionment rule. The 16th says that the rule of uniformity is used on taxing income from whatever source derived.

Last chance for the America we love!
Well, here we are AGAIN discussing usurper Obama, as if he were a REAL PRESIDENT, when in fact he doesn’t even meet the basic ELIGIBILITY requirements to BE president (not born on American soil). It’s not a small matter of him not providing a real US birth certificate when asked by the American people, it’s that HE DOESN’T HAVE ONE TO BEGiN WITH because he was BORN IN KENYA.

Which by the way, makes every bill Obama signs and every THING he DOES acting as president, iLLEGAL. And pretty much means if we let this go on we are breaking the law right along with him. CONSTITUTIONAL CRISES!

Come join me and help put up another billboard around the USA:
“WHERE’S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 102329

CLICK HERE TO HELP DONATE MORE BILLBOARDS ACROSS THE USA (you know, the country that requires a president be born on U.S. soil?)
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/%E2%80%A2-la test-update-on-obama-birth-certificate-case/

Sales Tax
I keep running into a problem in understanding the meaning of what people think is a VAT versus what is a "Sales Tax"

I know very well what a VAT is and the fact that it is applied at the source of the product, ie manufacturer, importer, wholesaler (in some cases), service provider etc.

The "Sales Tax" I have always understood to be a tax collected at the "Point of Sale". In most cases at a retail outlet but could just as easily be your barber shop or your doctor.

These are vastly different in concept and application. Is there something I am missing here?

PC is Thought Control
LEE

leeswolf

You're almost there.

VAT is applied at _each_ step of production. See my post 41 at 09:52.

I have a question.
Not having studied the VAT or the "Fair Tax" in depth, I don't know the effect either would have on my weekend business. I go to renaissance faires and other festivals, etc. I take people for rides on giant rocking horses, that I make myself. I understand that either system would tax me on the tools and materials that I use to make my horses, but would either one require me to collect a tax on taking people for a ride. I charge per rider, and have not had to pay sales tax so far, since I am providing a service, not selling anything. How would these two different systems treat me?

Kill the VAT--indeed!
I have not read all comments yet, but I do want to point out what Bruce failed to point out: the VAT is cumulative in nature, accruing additional percentages to total "price" wherever ANY value is added.

Ore is mined by a company and sold to another for refining; VAT. The refined metal ingots are sold to a firm which melts them into large sheets; VAT. The rolled sheets are sold to another company which cuts the sheets into thin strings to make wiring; VAT. The sell huge rolls of wiring to a firm which spins the wiring into coils and add other parts to make electric motors; VAT. The motors are sold to another company which uses them to make toothbrushes; VAT. That's five times the same copper molecules are taxed by VAT, and we haven't even added the state (and soon Federal?) sales taxes.

That spinning toothbrush you buy now for $10 (I'm guessing because I don't use those brushes), under a VAT system would sell for what? $15? $20? $30? Because it's not JUST the motor that costs more, it's EVERYTHING that makes the product costs more.

There is very little that we consume in today's world that is made by one business entity--from beginning to end of the manufacture of raw resource to finished product. Most finished products go multiple phases of manufacture by firms which specialize in each phase. Each phase of manufacture is a separate business transaction, hence another bite by the VAT.

It's like going to a high school where all the teachers are vampires; in each class you attend, the teacher drains yet another pint of blood. You'd never make it to day two.

Drive a stake through the heart of the VAT!

i

i

Nice handle. Quite clever.

But your analysis of VAT is WAAAAAAY off. See mp post £41 at 09:52.

Writer should do some research
This article proved one thing, the writer knows very little of the Fairtax. He missed the part where it repeals the 16th ammendment which gets rid of income tax. He mentioned nothing of no tax on buisness to buisness sales, only final products, for you guys doing the copper example. Really I find the credentials of this writer suspect and all he proved was he didn't read or understand anything about the Fairtax. For all of you who are unfamiliar with the Fairtax I urge you to dismiss this factually inaccurate aritcle and find out for yourself at Fairtax.org. Fairtax gets rid of your income tax and you don't pay sales tax on used goods. So when you buy a car or house the sales tax is paid only by the person who bought it new. Not to mention it gets tax revenues from folks not paying income tax or not claiming it like over a million immigrants, or any tourist visiting and criminals. At any rate this article is completely inaccurate. That seems to me to be more a tale of fiction and opinion than anything empirical. Don't be a sheep read about the fairtax yourself go to Fairtax.org it"s fully explained there.

You're pretty much right Michael
about the misconceptions. I actually LISTENED when Neil Boortz was proposing the solution to all our woes. The problem is that the part of the Fair Tax that makes it work will NEVER happen- abolishing the onerous income tax system.

TOO many people have too LARGE a vested interest in maintaining it. Tax preparers are just the tip of the iceberg. The social engineers know that by rewarding unwanted (by our standards) conduct and by punishing wanted behavior (again by OUR standards) they can turn society on its head and have done so.

Also to FAR too many the tax system is a great "leveler" because there are too many people out there who effectively pay NO income tax and think the "rich are robbing the poor" so Big Daddy government must get even with them. The fact that not a cent ends up in THEIR bank accounts never occurs to them.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.