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Friday, May 01, 2009
Brent Bozell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Opie Gets Ugly
by Brent Bozell
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When the conglomerates behind the viciously anti-Catholic book "The DaVinci Code" were looking for a director, Newsweek reported Ron Howard had a secret weapon: his aw-shucks child-star Opie Taylor likeability. "Ron is not a polarizer," said one. "We all knew the book was quite controversial, and we were ready for that. But we didn't want to add to it."

In that same article in 2006, it became clear that Howard wasn't going to make the film less vicious (or less filled with historical lies and distortions) than the book. There would be "no placating. It would be ludicrous to take on this subject and try to take the edges off. We're doing this movie because we like the book." (Emphasis his.)

This is where the aw-shucks routine goes out the window. It's one thing to say you like a good mystery with historical overtones. It's another thing to say you like a fiction book that paints the Catholic Church as an evil nest of lying murderers conspiring to protect the lie that Jesus Christ is God.

Then consider that "DaVinci Code" author Dan Brown repeatedly has claimed that his wild-eyed conspiracy theories are true. The book even carried the statement that "All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents and secret rituals in this novel are accurate."

Now "no-placating" Howard is back, pushing a new movie version of a Brown book called "Angels & Demons." In a nasty article on the Huffington Post website, Howard spat at William Donohue of the Catholic League: "I guess Mr. Donohue and I do have one thing in common: We both like to create fictional tales, as he has done with his silly and mean-spirited work of propaganda."

As the psychologists say, Ron Howard is projecting. That is a perfect summary of the Dan Brown novels: silly and mean-spirited works of propaganda.

Howard claims, "neither I nor 'Angels & Demons' are anti-Catholic. And let me be a little controversial: I believe Catholics, including most in the hierarchy of the Church, will enjoy the movie for what it is: an exciting mystery, set in the awe-inspiring beauty of Rome."

That's not controversial. It's insane. It's a tactic, just like Howard's partner Brian Grazer reacted during the "DaVinci" publicity tour in 2006, when Katie Couric asked him how the group Opus Dei would respond to its portrayal. They were dishonestly and ridiculously painted as a murderous cult, but Grazer said with a straight face: "I think they'll be happy with the movie, ultimately."

Howard complained that the Catholic League "accuses us of lying when our movie trailer says the Catholic Church ordered a brutal massacre to silence the Illuminati centuries ago. It would be a lie if we had ever suggested our movie is anything other than a work of fiction."

Check the "we" and the "ever" in that sentence. Howard is easily exposed as dishonest by a sentence on Dan Brown's own website about the book: "It is historical fact that the Illuminati vowed vengeance against the Vatican in the 1600s. The early Illuminati -- those of Galileo's day -- were expelled from Rome by the Vatican and hunted mercilessly." (Emphasis mine.)

The trailer lies exactly like that. The announcer introduces the Tom Hanks character: "He exposed one of the greatest coverups in human history." A woman whispers, "DaVinci!" Hanks explains: "The Illuminati were a secret society dedicated to scientific truth. The Catholic Church ordered a brutal massacre to silence them forever." At the end of the trailer, Hanks proclaims: "This is it. This is the truth!"

So who is doing the lying, Opie?

Movie watchers are going to think large chunks of this story are actual human history, and the trailer has no disclaimer about how this scientist-murdering-church narrative is pure fantasy. The real Illuminati originated in Bavaria in 1776 (long after Galileo died) and fizzled out a decade later. The Catholic Church never murdered a single member of the Illuminati.

A Catholic blogger who calls himself the Curt Jester ably underlined how audacious and ridiculous Howard sounds. He satirically proclaimed his own film project: "I am producing a movie on Ron Howard's family. In the movie based on my research I say his father was a drug pusher, and his mother is a prostitute, and that Ron Howard engages in S&M … I will present the Howard family as something totally based on lies, and question whether his parents really were his parents in the first place." And "of course this is just a movie, so people should not be upset about my portrayal of the Howard family at all."

He then predicted the Howard family would enjoy it as an exciting mystery. Ron Howard should read this and understand exactly what his cinematic versions of Dan Brown hate-speeches feel like to Catholics.

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About The Author
Founder and President of the Media Research Center, Brent Bozell runs the largest media watchdog organization in America.
 
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Boycott Him
I'm not a Christian but I still think Howard should be boycotted. Therefore I have put him on my "dreck list."
Howard is one of the quiet libs along with people like Harrison Ford, Kevin Costner and Tom Hanks. They don't rant and rave like lunatics like Penn, Clooney and Damon. However they were all good buddies with the Clintons and Costner, along with the other fool, Steven Spielberg, spent several hours sitting at the feet of Fidel Castro. (Spielberg allegedly said something to the effect that the time he spent with Castro was the best eight hours of his life.) Howard has been coming out of the closet lately and shooting his mouth off. I guess he wants to challenge Penn to an obnoxious, "who hates America more?" contest.
By the way, they don't even have to be stars anymore to propagandize the masses. I read that the actor who plays Capt. Kirk in the new Star Trek film couldn't be at an interview because he was out campaigning for Democrats. They start fast in Hollywood.

Tim, the crybaby
"Don't flatter yourself, even though I know you'd love to be successful insulting and inflicting hurt on others."

Don't dish it out if you can't take it, you big crybaby.

Harold
"I was into Holy Blood, Holy Grail & stuff like that, probably while Dan Brown was too young to get involved or interested."

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is hardly the truth. Much of that book has been debunked.

Pope Pius and the Jews - 2
In September 1945, Dr. Joseph Nathan —who represented the Hebrew Commission —stated: “Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

Dr. A. Leo Kubowitzki, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, came to present “to the Holy Father, in the name of the Union of Israelitic Communities, warmest thanks for the efforts of the Catholic Church on behalf of Jews throughout Europe during the war.”

In 1958, at the death of Pope Pius XII, Golda Meir, then Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, delivered a eulogy on behalf of the nation of Israel to the United Nations, stating: “We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the 10 years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

Pope Pius and the Jews - 1
The Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide concluded his careful review of Pius XII's wartime activities with the following words: “The Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII, was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.” He went on to add that this “figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined.” After recounting statements of appreciation from a variety of preeminent Jewish spokespersons, he noted. “No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews.”

At the Eichmann Nazi War Crimes Trial in 1961, Jewish scholar Jeno Levai testified that the Bishops of the Catholic Church “intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope.” In 1968, he wrote that “the one person (Pius XII) who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences, is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others.” In “The Secret War Against the Jews” in 1994, Jewish writers John Loftus and Mark Aarons write that “Pope Pius XII probably rescued more Jews than all the Allies combined.”

The Pope's efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

But it was entertaining...
No sane person can possibly believe that the protrayals in the movie were anything but fictional. It was an engaging murder mystery in which members of the catholic church were viciously manipulated by a non-catholic antagonist.

I grew up in a great parish with great priests, nuns, and lay persons. These folks were humble and not without humor. My love of the Catholic church runs deep.

Lighten up, Brent.

Sincerely,

A former altar boy

PS On the other hand, Opie is a bit of an idiot.

Da Vinci Reply 2
In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.

Da Vinci Reply 5
Hippolytus
"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Philosophoumena 10:33 [A.D. 222]).

Hippolytus of Rome
"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (Philosophoumena 10:34).

Clement of Alexandria
"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our wellbeing. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [ante A.D. 200]).

Clement of Alexandria
"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son." (Exhortation to the Greeks 10:110:1).

Origen
"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was, God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:Preface:4 [A.D. 220230]).

Origen
"While we have been sketching the proof of the divinity of Jesus, we have made use of the prophetic statements concerning him, and have at the same time demonstrated that the writings which prophesied about him are divinely inspired" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:6).

Cyprian
"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letter to Jubaianus 73:12 [A.D. 255])

Da Vinci Reply 3
Ignatius of Antioch
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God (Epistle to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit (Epistle to the Ephesians 18:2).

Ignatius of Antioch
". . . to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is (Epistle to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides
"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian
"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito
"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism; of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s, The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Da Vinci Reply 2
In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.

Da Vinci Reply 1

The author of The Da Vinci Code has claimed his book is factual. Many people no doubt will question many tenants of the Catholic faith even though the book and the movie are, by their own admission works of fiction. One of the basic assumptions of the book is that Jesus was not considered divine until the council of Nicea (325 AD). The first thing you need to know is that the Council of Nicea was called to combat Arianism. Arius proposed that if the Father begat the Son, the latter must have had a beginning, that there was a time when he was not, and that his substance was from nothing like the rest of creation. The result of the Council of Nicea is the Nicene Creed which we repeat at every mass.


We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten not made,
one in being with the Father [Greek homoousion to Patri] . . .

Arius did not believe that Jesus was not divine as the Da Vinci Code states only that he was created, not begotten.

So what did the early Christians believe about the divinity of Christ. I am including a partial series of quotes on the divinity of Christ showing a continuum of belief from the new testament up to the Council of Nicea.

Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

The Truth Is Worse
In my younger days I was in a new age cult.

I was into Holy Blood, Holy Grail & stuff like that, probably while Dan Brown was too young to get involved or interested. I don't know exactly how old Brown is because his book would bore me and I have no interest in such cover-ups to make the Catholic Church look good. And believe me such books as Brown's actually do cover up the truth.

DaVinci Code & similar titles are much more favorable to the Catholic Church than the truth is.

So don't gripe about the DaVinci Code, instead I'd suggest you learn the truth from some of the truly ancient writers.

Rewcovering Liberal

Truth
Rail as you all will,the Catholic Church is the longest surviving institution in Western Civilisation. It created the university, hospitals, science, and is the greatest sponsor of art and music,and it's architecture is world renouned. It will survive this ridiculous movie and Ron Howard. What upsets me is the sheer ignorance of many of the responents. JPII and Benedict XVI are world class intellectuals. The Catholic Church has produced many of the greatest intellectuals of our civilization. Has it made mistakes? It is a human institution here on earth, but it is Divinely inspired. The Curch proposes, you are free to refuse. I am shocked that Town Hall people are so filled with hatred and sheer abject ignorance. So sad when the facts are available.

Single minded approach to God
Mike, may I suggest that religion, not spiritual commitment is the creation of man and as the creation of man, most denominations are deeply flawed. I believe that now is the time to search for a body of believers who model themselves after Jesus and his teachings (not those crazy interetations of man and study the Bible dilligently. I can only relate our problems to those similar in political parties. If we base our beliefs on the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence we will be directed to those we should support. Forget the Republicans, forget the Democrats.

The Know Nothings prove that they are ..
correctly named. "Sol_Pitifus" is one of them. I don't need to waste time reading the others.

To Sophie
Remember that the Communists didn't just kill political dissidents; they purged every religion they could from their country. What's more is that no one was immune; if you didn't subscribe to atheist worship of the state, you were unorthodox and subject to a one-way trip to the Gulag.

Additionally, they got most of their justification for these atrocities from atheist philosophy. "There is no higher power than man - therefore man makes morality, and since we are in power, we make morality."

Does Christianity have its nasty moments? Of course it does. You can't go two thousand years without having bad eggs getting into power; the USA has been around for only two hundred thirty, and we've already seen Harding, Wilson, Nixon, and many others in power who were completely amoral. But like Christianity, our underlying motives are pure, and so like a ship in choppy waters, we return to stability again and again. Meanwhile, atheism is doomed to fail again and again.

The only person who truly understood this among the atheists was Nietzsche. He alone realized the implications of atheism, of how it completely destroys the concept of an external system of morality, and how it destroys Man's purpose. He went insane because of it.

Atheists don't examine their ideology closely for that reason. Their path ends in ruin.

I am a Protestant, although I have thought several times about converting to Catholicism. Protestantism is interesting in that it once stood for sticking with what the Bible taught - and then turned itself into a friendly nice-to-all "We'll change our doctrine like grass in the wind." As a result, Protestantism is dying. It's really too bad.

Respectfully,
Mike

Martin Luther vs. Joseph Smith????
KenUSA:"Some of the most vitriolic assaults on Mormons I have ever heard came from Protestants angry that Joseph Smith had the audacity to use the same recipe as Martin Luther to interpret scripture, namely, Scripture, Holy Spirit and individual believer."

I can't believe you'd even compare the two. Luther made a very in-depth, comprehensive study of scripture. Everything he proposed in his 95 Theses was scripture-based. Here is his response at the Diet of Worms when he was asked to recant his writings and faced martyrdom from the Inquisition if he didn't:

"Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."

In contrast, Joseph Smith claimed to have received golden plates from an angel named Moroni (using a "seer stone" to find them, conveniently, buried near his home) and created the Book of Mormon, which is most certainly not Bible-based.

/No, I'm not a Lutheran.

I'll show you courage
I wonder if the courage of Dan Brown and Opie Taylor would be strong enough to enable them to make a frollicking and fun mystery about Islam? You know, something to the effect that its founder married a very young child, was a mass murderer, and very much disliked disagreement and "science". Then, they could show how their followers for nearly 1300 years have been the bane of the civilized world, as they've killed many people advocating for the rights of women and homosexuals. And before you paint me as a bigot, remember, it's only fiction.

Yeah, I think that story would be one worth waiting for from the courageous Hollywood types. They'd think that movie was too offensive and antagonistic. I wonder: why the double standard, Opie?

Hollywood Elitists
We live in a society that love's its entertainment industry. Unfortunately we attach too much significance to the personal causes that these entertainers support. Many of these entertainers that were raised in the Hollywood environment have grown up with differing from ideas and values from mainstream working class America. When they take advantage of their media exposure to espouse these ideas they move themselves from the entertainment arena to the political arena. This might not be so bad if their public lives offered them up as role models of morality. As we all know, Hollywood is the farthest thing from morality as you can get. Obviously as a Catholic I am sensitive to movies that ridicule my beliefs and claim to be factual. Seems like soneone has an axe to grind. I wonder if Ron Howard would also take such license with the Muslim Faith. I miss the days of my childhood when I was taught to be nice to everyone and not ridicule their beliefs no matter how different they might be.

Howard's and Hank's agenda
Both of these guys, plus a slew of others, have been banned from our home (nothing of the "entertaining" field). Why bother? They have nothing to tell us that is of substance.

Ron Howard is just naive about poltics
His film's themes about the abuse of power should be something conservatives celebrate. Sure it's not not historically accurate, and he says it's a work of fiction. I see his as more interested in putting out a good movie with a good theme. The Church, and politicians throughout history have abused power and making people suspicious of authority is a good thing. Conservatives should support reducing the power of authroities and government in general, as power will be abused. Government should expose those who do abuse power. Didn't our founders severly limit the power of government and spread it among institutions to avoid its abuse?

It's sad that most people feel we have to choose between two evils (McCain, Obama, Bush, and Gore were all statists - all wanted to grow the government). I wish Howard was more intelligent on the subject and understood our founder's thinking. I for one will only vote for supporters of freedom. I've voted Libertarian in the last 2 presidential elections because I don't support Statism. If you vote for an evil, that's what you'll get and deserve.

Jaybird

Just more two-faced BS from the right wing "Christians"

WWJD?

I can name about 25 on this site that he won't be welcoming come judgment day . . .

Sure, this "moral stance" of Obama's.


Jack David writes in a nearby message: "And nothing is more beautiful than the New Testament, the example of the saints, the moral stance on torture that Barack has taken."

Right. That moral stance of his. Obama says we must treat our deadly enemies, captured on the battlefield trying to kill us, and who happily hack off our heads when they capture us, with compassion, at the same time that he signs into law bills promoting abortion, the murder of innocent babies at home and abroad, and seeks to deny aid to survivors of abortion so that the helpless little infants can die in misery and pain.

Yeah, this is one moral guy, this saintly Barack. Jack David, sorry, you're a fool.

Opie
My favorite show was Andy Griffith. With Opie and Andy both off the reservation in their support of the present administration and Opie's anti-Christian bias, they blend in with all the other left-wingers Hollywood has foisted on us. Somehow, I think the people of Mayberry would be sad.

Dissonance and Confusion
I am a practicing Catholic who is irresistibly drawn to things pagan--great works of art, for example. But they have to be truly great.

Anyhow, nothing can actually undermine the Rock that is the Roman Catholic Church.

Pedophilia, satanism, twisted homosexual ideology, jihadism--you name it. Nothing can faze Truth; nothing is more powerful than Holy Communion in its very specific and very universal meanings.

And nothing is more beautiful than the New Testament, the example of the saints, the moral stance on torture that Barack has taken.

Bobblehead
If Brown didn't claim that his historical events were actual facts, his work would be merely a mediocre thriller with a rabid anti-Catholic viewpoint. It's his claim of historical authenticity that makes his work especially despicable. I've had any number of conversations with people who believed what he said, and regarded my refutation of his 'facts' as inspired by religious prejudice. Facts don't bother me-- it's his lies that are doing the damage.

Ahem...
Seems that many of you are too thick to understand Browns claim of HISTORICAL ACCURACY. It would be one thing if he was historically accurate and wrote a work of fiction...but HE LIED about the accuracy, leading the ignorant to BELIEVE portions of the story, however fictional it may be. Fiction is an effective means to convey truth (parable anyone?) I do quite clearly recall that many of the viewers of the "DaVinci Code" repeated the historical LIES believing them to be true. And this was and is the intention of the author. I am also reminded of another work of fiction, "An Inconvenient Truth"...same story.

Tim
Oh my, a large part of your description of Evangelicals sounds an awful lot like today's Democrats: "like to think they're holier than thou, but will horde their worldly possessions and never reach out to help those less fortunate. And they seem to have a bit of a superiority issue--if you're not in lock step with what they believe--then you're going to be 'left behind.' " Are so many Democrats Evangelicals?? Is that why they feel that they must reach into MY pocket to help those less fortunate, while "accidentally" not paying their taxes and also refusing to donate to anything more basic than an art museum or opera theater?

Tim
Your view of evangelicals is not supported by the facts. Evangelicals and devout Catholics are more likely to work with children at risk, either by foster parenting or adopting, particularly adopting special needs children. They are more likely to volunteer and to give to non-church charities than the general run of society too.
There are always exceptions, but the overall picture is one of people who truly care and truly help. Why does it bother you that we think a child's right to live overrules a woman's 'right' to choose death for that child?

Ken

Don't flatter yourself, even though I know you'd love to be successful insulting and inflicting hurt on others. How wonderful of you. I know plenty of evangelicals, and for the most part many are decent human beings. But the vocal percentage tend to be the hypocrites who rail against a woman's right to choose, yet will never adopt; like to think they're holier than thou, but will horde their worldly possessions and never reach out to help those less fortunate. And they seem to have a bit of a superiority issue--if you're not in lock step with what they believe--then you're going to be 'left behind.'

It's a great bit of brainwashing.

Easy to see how Scientology has gotten to where it is today--people are stupid, and gullible, and there's always someone out there ready to take advantage of the weak.

Brown Lies
I have a pretty good background in history, Church history in particular. Virtually every historical 'fact' Brown quotes is false. What I wasn't sure of I looked up when I read the book. It's all false, down to the little details. Just for starters, Copernicus dedicated his great work on planetary motion to the Pope and died in bed, not of assassination. The list is endless.
Now, if you are writing a 'historical' novel, and Brown claims his novels are actually historical, it's nice if they include a little actual real history. His don't. It's sort of like watching "Birth of a Nation" to understand what the Klan is all about, or reading the vague and dishonest generalities of Sophist.
You could write a true historical novel about the Catholic church (or anything or anyone) that made parts of it look bad if you worked very hard, but it would be nothing like Brown's work.
Forget this turkey-- not because it's anti-Catholic, but because it's a pack of plausible lies.

I DON'T WATCH OPIES' CRAP.
In fact, I don't watch much of anything the Hollyweirds put out any more. It's all garbage. Ron Howard was a cute little kid who grew into another Leftist Nutwad.

Remember The Flick
"Throw Momma from the Train"

The woman who played Momma always reminds me of Silly Sophie.

Bet they look alike, too.

sophist
Maybe you and Tim should gang up on me next time. Between the two of you, you might come up with half a brain. I doubt it, though.

Tim
I repeat, you made negative comments about evangelicals when you clearly know very little about them. That sounds pretty bigoted to me. Your lame insults suggest that I struck a nerve. The truth hurts, doesn't it?

ken

If I'm a bigot based on my post, then you're an insecure little loser who needs to get a life.

Have a nice day.

sophist
"You could claim the massacres by the communist soviets or chinese,"

I could, and I did.

"but that would prove your ignorance since we all know those were driven by communist idealogy."

I'm assuming you meant "Communist ideology." The purges were perpetrated by atheists. Why do you find that so hard to understand?

"Wanna try coming up with a real answer big man or do you prefer to harp on my typos?"

If you'd learn how to spell, I wouldn't harp on your errors.

The Romans were only the WEAPON!!!!
The Romans couldn't care LESS who they killed. I know about my own ancestors only too well. The Emperor had ears EVERYWHERE like the KGB under Stalin only much more secretive.

NOTHING of significance happened in ANY province or occupied territory without Caesar's knowledge and at least tacit approval.

Pontius Pilate was a moderately successful military officer too old for combat and got himself what he thought was a plum posting: procurator of Palestine. As a paper-pushing bureaucrat he was OK, but as an administrator he left much to be desired.

This worked FOR Caesar because Pilate was only too happy to let the "invisible hand" of Caesar rule Palestine and keep his hands clean. Escaping accountability was one of his greatest skills, see "I wash my hands!" for example.

The real culprits (leaving the sins of Mankind out for a bit) were the Pharisees and Saduccees, the Priess and Scribes who ran the Temple. Jesus really urinated them by whipping the money changers out of the place and calling them hypocrites. If there was ANYTHING He hated it was hypocrisy.

The leader of this "nest of vipers" was Joe Caiphus, a prototype of the Rev. Sharpton/Rev. Jacks/Rev. Wright "ministers" of today. He saw HIS power threatened by an itinerant preacher/rabbi who preached faith in God and adherence to God's Law over sacrifices and offerings. Can't have that can we?

You correctly state that they could not have executed anyone. They saw the huge rallies Jesus caused wheever He appear so they caught him alone and held a secret "trial" with a "rent-a-mob" (another Sharpton/Jackson tactic) to denounce Him before Pilate.

Thus a TINY group of hypocritical Jews IN NAME ONLY instigated the actual crucifixion but the Roman soldiers were like the guards as Dachau. They were "only following orders" and we now know what THAT defense is worth.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria

sophist
"Poof Ken?"

"Poof"? What exactly is "poof"? Or did you mean to say "proof"? You really should take a refresher course in spelling.

"Claiming that atheism has killed more people than christianity is a pretty wild claim!"

Not wild; just factual.

"Don't try to give me any soviet or chinese purges either!"

Why not? Do you support censorship?


Mini-Me's everywhere Bwahahaha!
Check it out folks. I either have more than one Mini-Me Wanna-Be running around or the first one is getting smarter. It is not posting on other threads as 13 Bravo (notice the space between the 13 and the Bravo; actually clever, makes me kinda proud) from Indiana. So make sure you know to whom you are responding if you see this individual. I am always 13Bravo, one word, from Indiana.

My Mini-Me isn't dangerous but it may try to gain carnal knowledge of your leg. Just a warning.

Isn't That Charming? Silly Sophie.
(@ 2:53 p.m. EST.)

She joins us by starting with profanity. No surprise there.

Many times a day here at TOWNHALL far-left liberals manage to degrade themselves. Sophie was more than up to the task. Could it be any sadder?


Ron Howard-fellow redhead
It may insult some to claim his film is historical, but Oliver Stone has been pulling this stuff for years.
I think the creepy pedophile priests have vindicated the Boy Scouts for disallowing gay scoutmasters.

Hey Melissa (post @ (9:40 a.m.)

"Places in the Heart" is the correct title. Somehow I wrote, "A Place in the Heart".

Excellent performance by left-of-center Hollywood actor, Sally Field. Also, hard left-winger, Danny Glover, is outstanding. I can't agree with their politics but they're a big part of this incredible movie.
........................................................................
I would also note the "The Apostle", the Robert Duvall film and the terrific gospel documentary, "Say Amen, Somebody".


Ron Howard is a vicious bigot
There is nothing soft and cuddly about this bald 'Opie' creep. He goes right to the heart of attacking Catholics and Christianity in general - and Hanks exists in and profits from the same sewage.

It's easy for these predatory scum to prey upon the docile and meek of heart because they believe in praying for, forgiving and turning the other cheek to their slanderers and persecutors.

TO HOWARD AND HANKS

I'd like to see you even attempt to try doing the same thing to the real vicious of like mind, the Muslims. Go ahead, Howard - and Hanks: make a movie about what the motivation is in Islam, ludicrously referred to as the religion of peace, that inspires Jihad, mass murder, mayhem, conquest, subjugation, etc. - ALL IN THE NAME OF ALLAH - and see how long you continue to live.

Ron Howard - and Hanks: you two represent the views of those who scream murder against any who express moral objection to (your) homosexuality by name calling (homophobe, bigot, etc.), agitating against and discrimination. But you reserve the right to maliciously malign the ancient, peaceful and heartfelt religious beliefs of others.

There is no behavior in the animal kingdom more loathsome because yours is CHOSEN.

I urge that ANYTHING you two amoral predators ever produce - that it never be patronized.

Vicious or idiot, you be the judge
I'm afraid "his aw-shucks child-star Opie Taylor likability" evaporated when I saw the ads, starring Ron & Andy, with little aw-shucks Opie wondering how anyone could say all those mean things about a nice man like Mr. Obama.

Much as I have liked Ron Howard in the past, I can no longer bring myself to watch "The Andy Griffith Show." It just makes my skin crawl.

I'm afraid making a nasty movie like this doesn't stretch Ron's principles at all.

One more thing
I and many other Christians are boycotting ALL movies made by howard, this studeio and Tom Hanks until they apologise.

The DaVinci Rube
and Dan Brown's sequel to it, although fiction are STILL attacks on Christianity. They are purposely insulting to Christians. I guess everybody in America is protected from attacks like these books present EXCEPT TRUE Christians. Write a fiction book (and do a movie) about how harmful homosexuality is to persons who engage in it and I can guarantee the backlash from the PC crowd would be vicious and unending. Write a piece of fiction that distorted facts about black slavery in America and the result would also be vicious and immediate. The PC "toleranec" police are only tolerant if you agree with the lefty-loser agenda.

Tim
"nor the Evangelicals who prey on the old and weak to build their mega-churches (which are nothing more than monuments to their egos), and pay for their lavish, excessive lifestyles."

Most Evangelical churches are not that large. You're judging them from the few you've seen. That is the essence of a bigot.

I'm no fan of Joel Osteen myself, and I'm having some serious doubts about Warren.

"As far as the DaVinci Code, Dan Brown and Ron Howard, they're all on the same fictional level as any of the religions out there."

More proof of your bigotry.

"Except they don't start any wars in the name of "God.""

Atheism has killed far more people than Christianity.

For Geoffrey in MN @ 12:56
Do "empty boycotts" (I'll explain the reason below) count?

Reasons:
(*) my wife had made a vow (sometime before our marriage) that she would not watch secular-themed films***
(*) although I am technically not subject to the vow, I also cannot annul it (as its existence preceded our wedding)
(*) for a married man, it's simply no fun to watch a movie alone.

***A loophole in it allows us to watch videos of 1956 "Ten Commandments", 1959 "Ben Hur" or 2003 Telugu short-film "Freakout" (version of Luke 15:11-31 but set in modern AP)

Oopsy
That first word should of been "I'm" sorry...

Sorry about that. my only excuse is that studying for finals while writing four papers is corrupting what little mind I have left.

Fiction on Fiction
I don't get it. Dan Brown writes fiction about the fiction of Christ, and people get all worked up. If "faith" is the only proof of God and Christ, then you can just a easily (and just as wrongly) apply your faith to Brown's "Good Books."

Apparently, the weakness of religion gives undo power to the imagination of one popular author. I guess you are right to be afraid.

Ken
Martin Luther took issue with the Catholic Church's policy of 'indulgences,' which was the acceptance of money in return for forgiveness of sins. This practice allowed the rich to buy forgiveness from temporal punishment, and filled the coffers of the Catholic Church.

Luther challenged the practice, as well as the spiritual mindset, which seemed to be being driven by payola.

To quash his voice of dissent, Pope Leo excommunicated him in 1521.

Bottom line, Luther has my respect, which I can't say about the Catholic Church, nor the Evangelicals who prey on the old and weak to build their mega-churches (which are nothing more than monuments to their egos), and pay for their lavish, excessive lifestyles.

Yeah, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, I'm talking to you.

As far as the DaVinci Code, Dan Brown and Ron Howard, they're all on the same fictional level as any of the religions out there. Except they don't start any wars in the name of "God."




Reasons?
Geoffrey

Also, refuse steadfastly to accept any of the new dollar coins from anyone. Why, because the cowardly, socialist elitists have removed from the coins the phrase "In God We Trust".

If that does not graphically illustate where this treacherous regime is taking us; I don't know waht does.

If you run across any of these coins without that phrase, I'll be glad to double your money for them. I'll give 2 bucks for every one of them you can send me. And I'll pay the postage.

Ken
Thanks for the clarification. I knew I had a better handle on the history than wbheff, but I wasn't sure on the timing of all of it.

Attention please
I sorry for going off topic, but I just want to let everybody know how proud I am. I have been cloned. That’s right I have joined the esteemed ranks with GunnyG; I have my very own Mini-Me Wanna-Be who calls itself (we haven’t determined the gender yet; I’m kinda afraid to touch it) 13Bravo. Only this 13Bravo is from California, while I, the original honest to gosh 13Bravo hails from the great state of Indiana.

So I would like to warn everybody to be careful when reading anything from Faux 13Bravo; first check which state the post comes from, next see if the words in the post are spelled correctly, then check to see if the rants make any sense (remember, I may be crazy, but I at least think before posting).

Finally please beware that Faux 13Bravo hasn’t been potty trained yet. It keeps going on the coffee table then rolling in it’s mess; we tried to rub it’s nose in the poo, but it actually seemed to enjoy that.

Thank you for understanding.

wbheff and Vman
wbheff writes: "All Protestant religions were established by men, rebelling against the Church, wanting to do things their own way, starting with Henry VIII."

As Vman stated, the Protestant Reformation began before Henry VIII. Luther originally did not intend to split the church. He only wanted to correct what he saw as doctrinal errors and abuses within the church. When the Catholic Church excommunicated him as a heretic, what else was he to do?

Vman, I do have to correct a couple of things in your post:

"Actually protestantism more or less started with Martin Luther a Catholic priest in charge of Biblical studies at the Vatican due to his command of the historical languages of the Bible (Hebrew, Greek)."

At the time the Reformation began, Luther was serving as a priest in Wittenberg, Germany, and taught at the university there.

"The Catholic church didn't like his interpretation of what he was translating."

Luther didn't translate the Bible until after he had split from the church. Things came to a head when Luther posted his "95 Theses" on the cathedral door at Wittenberg. This action was prompted by Luther's outrage over the sale of indulgences.

Goodbye Opie
Make the move, Curt Jester.

Ron Howard has sold himself and any principles he ever had to the Almighty Dollar.

Who wud a thunk it?
Opie from Mayberry, Ritchie from Milwaukee, Forest Gump from ALAMAMA and Astronaut James Lovell would all be flaming libs. Recreating history at the drop of a hat to further their agenda. Never mind that its a wrong-headed anti-American agenda. But you know its a tough road to Nirvana utopia and somebody's got to do it.

wbheff
Actually protestantism more or less started with Martin Luther a Catholic priest in charge of Biblical studies at the Vatican due to his command of the historical languages of the Bible (Hebrew, Greek). The Catholic church didn't like his interpretation of what he was translating. Although, he didn't intend to break away from the Catholic church, he just wanted to reform it. Henry VII took the ball in the direction he wanted as you say.

Boycott the movie
There is really only one thing to do in this case; boycott the movie.

Recall Mr. Howards political endorsement of the current regime.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Howard and most of his associates in Jollywood have chosen to lend such blind and un insightful faith to this narcissistic, Afro-Leninist, Golden Pharaoh and his merry band of God and family value hating, secular communists.

I don't doubt that it might be an entertaining movie; Mr. Howard is a fairly creative director. However, more than any time in history we are engaged in a battle.

For those who don't know or have forgotten the stakes; it is a battle for the survival of American sovereignty, our Constitution, our traditional way of life and Western Civilization.

At this point, these are minor battles; the great ones are yet to come. However, every attack against our Christian-Jew Dao values by an elitist and arrogant, socialist left, is one more piece of America that we lose. This Movie is such an attack.

So, I implore every patriotic American; every God fearing man, woman and child to BOYCOTT Angels and Demons.

Also, refuse steadfastly to accept any of the new dollar coins from anyone. Why, because the cowardly, socialist elitists have removed from the coins the phrase "In God We Trust".

If that does not graphically illustate where this treacherous regime is taking us; I don't know waht does.

LeftUSA
You believe so many things, and yet most of them are demonstrably false. Just a little example; "Catholic priests tend to molest children at a disproportionate rate," Actually, the rate is lower than the general population. The highest rates are among general laborers and teachers.
By the way, I'm not a Catholic, but I did investigate child abuse for four years.

History lesson
In re, "one holy, Catholic and apostolic church." The Catholic Church was established by God, in the person of Jesus, the Son. All Protestant religions were established by men, rebelling against the Church, wanting to do things their own way, starting with Henry VIII. The exception to that is Christian science, founded by a woman, Mary Baker Eddy.

I am a Christian.
And I read Angels and Demons as well as The Davinci Code. Darn good reads and very entertaining. I was not reading for religious instruction.

Timothy
It's a shame to see such a noble Christian name as yours used to attack the Lord's people. Paul wouldn't be happy.

Ken
Ken writes:

Vman
Um, no offense, but you addressed your last post to me. I think you probably intended that for "LeftUSA".

You're right. Sorry about that.

get real
oh are the christen up set that others are making them see the blood on there hands

Vman
Um, no offense, but you addressed your last post to me. I think you probably intended that for "LeftUSA".

LeftUSA
"You can't prove they're lies"

I can't, eh? Let's consider a few things Dan Brown said in "The DaVinci Code":

Brown said the Olympics were originated to honor Venus. FACT: The Olympics were in honor of Zeus, not Venus. Why would the Greeks have a festival to honor a Roman goddess?

Brown said Jesus was not regarded as God until the Council of Nicea. FACT: Jesus was regarded as God long before the Council of Nicea. Read the early church fathers and see for yourself.

Brown said Constantine made Christianity the "official religion" of the Roman Empire. FACT: Constantine only ended persecution of Christians. Christianity did not become the official religion of Rome until long after Constantine's death.

Those are just a few examples. Need more? I've barely even scratched the surface.

The simple fact is, Brown doesn't know what he's talking about. If you think "The DaVinci Code" should be taken seriously, then you don't know what you're talking about.


Ken
Regarding your #2 item to Ken:

Just because you refuse to belief the proof given doesn't mean it's not proven.

Read for yourself
The problem, as I see it, is that too many people have no idea what the Bible says. They have never read it, have never attended a church that teaches the truth, and they take the word of an author who calls fiction fact. They almost have no choice, but to believe what Dan Brown writes, because they don't know any better.
I'm not Catholic, I am a Christian. I was raised hearing the Word of God and have studied it on my own. I was taught never to take a preacher's word on what the Bible says, but to search it out for myself. So many out there don't know the truths of God's Holy Word and they listen to the likes of Brown and Howard.
I would tell them to read the Bible and find out for themselves.
The Truth is out there.

The History
of Christianity is marred with atrocity. To deny this is lying to ones self. Brown's books are fiction, but to say they are void of some truth is stepping out of bounds. Scientist were persecuted by the Church for disproving what the Church had held as truth - Galileo was a perfect, historical, example of that. Soem of the sentiment put forth by Brown and other authors such as Khoury is plausible and should be given consideration in a logical matter. We must remember that religion is of Man and is fallible, that does not disprove or discredit God - only Man.

Ken
1) You can't prove they're lies

2) You can't prove Jesus was God. That's why it's called "Faith"

3) If you can't prove it, you can't call positions contrary to it "lies" and remain credible

4) When I say "respect", I mean it from a Constitutional point of view, not a moral or emotional one. It's interesting that I have to make this distinction to you; you DO have to respect it, meaning respect the other person's constitutional right to take the position, if you want to live in this country. Whether you have personal respect for the person does not interest me at all. It isn't any of my business.


LeftUSA
"Lastly, if this movie is seen by someone who hasn't decided about whether or not to become a Catholic (which I highly doubt) and it serves to inform their decision NOT to join the church, then I respect that person's right to make that decision."

If they made their decision based on "The DaVinci Code", then I most certainly do NOT respect it. Why should I respect a decision that's based on a pack of lies?

And
to think, I was happy when Opie learned to talk.

To m.a.
One man's "propaganda" is another man's "entertainment".

It is not a requirement that a movie "educate". Nor is there any prohibition on a movie being "propaganda".

I don't believe Jesus was God. I think the Catholic Church has done more harm than good over the centuries. I think Catholic priests tend to molest children at a disproportionate rate, due to ridiculous enforced celebacy which started in the 11th century because the Catholic Church, Inc, didn't want to pay the surviving families of priests who died.

Because of these views, I'm more inclined to go see this movie, and more inclined to be entertained by it.

I understand that your views are different, and I respect that. I understand that this movie would offend you, and I respect your right not to see it. Lastly, if this movie is seen by someone who hasn't decided about whether or not to become a Catholic (which I highly doubt) and it serves to inform their decision NOT to join the church, then I respect that person's right to make that decision.

I won't call you names because you believe in something that I don't. Bozell has called me "insane" because I'm likely to enjoy this film. He bandies about the word "liar" like it's ketchup on fries; well, Brent, I'm quite sane, thanks, and I liked the book and will probably like the movie. That makes you a Liar.

Your morality, religion, and sensitivities do not belong anywhere near public policy. So complain, whine, decry the moral downfall of the country all you want. But don't assume you know anything about my state of mental health. It's better than yours.

it's a movie of a book...
"In that same article in 2006, it became clear that Howard wasn't going to make the film less vicious (or less filled with historical lies and distortions) than the book."

How dare he make a movie adaptation of a book that stays true to the book and not the desires of Townhall columnists! How ballsy of Howard.

Chuck
I believe and have faith in roman catholicism not merely because of its existance but why it exist.

LeftUSA
I think your last post makes Mr. Bozell's point quite clearly.

Chuck
You split an interesting hair I have to give you that but I have to say that all roman catholics are christian and not because of their enrollment in the church, they are enrolled in the church because of their faith in Jesus. Its the only reason to enrolled. Jesus clearly gives us direction as to what we are to believe.

Blacklisted?
I didn't read anything in the article or the posts that suggested blacklisting, or anything denouncing Hollywierd making money. Most people, unfortunately even most Catholics, due to poor catechesis, do not understand what the Church teaches and believes. The posts here are simply trying to educate about the Church. Dan Brown's movies and books do not educate, they propagandize.

Brent, stuff your morality. Stuff it.
It's one thing to say the movie offends you. Fine. You have a right to be offended; Ron Howard has a right to offend you. But it's quite another to say that anyone who enjoys what offends you is "insane". Perhaps you're stopping short of suggesting that these people should be killed. But other than that, you sound like you just saw a few Danish cartoons. How much different is it to say that someone who is entertained by what offends you is mentally ill?

Bozell: I remind you, again, that you are not required to see this movie. I also remind you that if Ron Howard and Dan Brown are visciously anti-Catholic, and want to write books and make movies to further that position, they are completely within their rights to do so. You are completely within your rights to whine about it and lament the good 'ol days of saddle shoes, bobby socks, and (guffaw) teen abstinence. But when you call me insane because I enjoyed the DaVinci code (book and movie) and will probably enjoy Angels and Demons, then I've got a two-word answer for you. And it isn't "Happy Birthday".

Expensive lesson.

If main-stream America learns but ONE thing... it is this.

VOTE WITH YOUR WALLETS!

That in itself would be a good start.

But already, many of the screeching far-left activist types in Hollywod have felt the sting of "disappointing" box office receipts... as Americans have been turned off and have simply choosen to go see something else.

Granted, if money "only" talked in Hollywood, there would mostly be one kind of product made over there... family films.

But ideology rules, and feelings run deep. And so we're bombarded with a relentless parade of unbelievable trash... much of which puts both us and America in a bad light.

However, even the far left in Hollywood will not continue to make films that keep loosing money.

But most important, they will not keep banking on "stars" who for some "umexplained" reason... have suddenly become box office poison.

Wallet power.


Well
"If there is any Roman Catholic who has singled out the Jews as being responsible for Christ’s death on the cross, he should look in the mirror, because he also is guilty of sin, and Christ died for Him too."

My Daddy [RIP] was a Jew, and when I was a kid, Italian Catholic kids used to routinely taunt us with the accusation that the Jews killed Christ. Daddy told us not to blame them for it, because they were only repeating what their parents said, but to remind them that it was the Romans, in point of fact, as the Jews themselves admitted that they were not allowed to kill anybody.

Oh, and those same Catholic kids used to chant, "Jew, Jew, Dirty Jew! My Grandmother hates your Grandmother, my Mother hates your Mother AND I HATE YOU."

I am now a Catholic myself and if I ever heard a kid of mine talk like that I would slap him right off his feet.

lilly
You're the only one talking about blacklisting, so that means you must be a liberal!

KenUSA and n
Same to you, my friend.

n, then we are in agreement in spirit. I am firmly convinced that there are many Christians in the Roman Catholic church, but not because they are in the Roman Catholic church, but because of their faith in Jesus.

Howard is right, Brown is irritating
I haven't read either Brown book or seen the first movie, and am not likely to see the new one. But that is because I don't like conspiracy theories, and the trailers do drive me nuts with their conspiratorial ahas.

That said, Howard is right that works of fiction can be entertaining when they play with the facts. Brown's pretense that his stuff is factual is tiresome and deserves criticism. But I don't see anything equally problematic in Howard's acknowledgement that he is producing fiction. And the fact that a fictional character within the context of the fictional story claims that things are true does not really undercut Howard's point.

lilly
we again find ourselves in agreement. See my reply #38

Opie Gets Ugly
Come on Brent, many movies are just entertainment. How about Oliver Stone and Micheal More.
Besides the Catholics have long dark periods in their history.
Take it for what it is, "It's Only a Movie"

To Billk9
Hollywood is out to make money? Making movies is a business? Damn. I thought it was a charity.

Hang on a minute. Today on townhall there's an article criticizing Obama because he has pulled the reins tighter on credit card companies that suddenly increased their interest rate from 10% to 20% on customers who were NOT in arrears. And we've heard this argument before on townhall, for years---that the business of business is business, to make money, to bring in profit---the argument that business HAS no social responsbility but to make money.

Is it fair and balanced to say that VISA is OK just making money no matter what, but MGM (or whatever movie company) can't concern itself with profit? Is there some consistency here to strive for?

Deja-Vu
So: A major film director should be blacklisted if he directs an anti-Catholic film.

Why is all this sounding familiar? Oh yes, I remember now. It was something about a Dutch film-maker making an anti-Muslim film. I think something bad happened to him. In Holland, remember? He got killed by offended Muslims?

In the last few days, townhall has been roaring about freedom of speech applying to the violence-inspiring anti-homosexual rhetoric of some fundamentalist preachers. Let them say what they like, write townhallers. It's a matter of freedom of speech.

If that's so, then the same freedom of speech should apply to a film that presents the Catholic Church in an unflattering light. Unless it's OK to say negative things about gays, in church, but not OK to say negative things about church, in film. Not fair, not balanced.

Chuck
Agreed on needless and unfruitful confrontation.
I used "My Utmost For His Highest" as a daily for years. What I enjoy most about Chambers is his absolutely unyielding bias toward what is true. Difficulty and discomfort meant nothing to him.
Have a great day Chuck

Chuck
Are you certain of your belief in Jesus? I am certain of mine, in the practice of my faith which was given to us by Jesus

Dopey Opie
Just another reason to dislike 'Opie'. Remember the dopey 'Opie' commercial he ran pleading with America to vote for Obama? Talk about playing the race card! "Gee, Pa, I wonder why white folk don't want to vote for a black man?"

KenUSA
Wishing to avoid a needless and unfruitful confrontation, allow me to simply say, make sure that your faith is in Jesus and not in your belief about Him.

Oswald Chambers said,"When we become advocates of a creed, something dies; we do not believe God, we only believe our belief about Him."

Even in the Protestant Church there are church-going moralists who think they are saved.

Ken Location: VA

"It's fiction"???
I've read some of the posts on this site, and they've given the same lame defense of "The DaVinci Code" that I've heard countless times: "It's just fiction."

In the first place, that claim is not strictly true. Dan Brown claimed his book was based on historical fact, and it clearly is not.

In the second place, many skeptics tried to use "The DaVinci Code" to discredit Christianity - until the book was proven to be a pile of garbage. They had to resort to the "it's-just-fiction" routine to keep from looking like complete idiots. In my opinion, they were too late.


Thank you, Ken! I couldn't have said it better myself!!

bburt
Right on.

Mrs. Paddy
"I see no difference between DaVinci Code and the Indiana Jones movies (Raiders etc) that nobody got upset about."

If "Raiders of the Lost Ark" had depicted Nazis as a bunch of nice people who weren't really anti-Semitic, and who were only avenging injustices committed by Jews, I think you'd have seen an outcry.


Hi Chuck
"one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"

Word by word, I understand it like this...
"one" Mk 9 The apostles came to Jesus saying"Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us."
39
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
40
For whoever is not against us is for us"

"holy" See Catechism of the Catholic Church article 813 on
"catholic" universal
"apostolic" Mathew 16 "Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Jesus did not say this to the masses on the mount, but to one man, in front of others.

Many , maybe most, Protestants and Mormons have taken the truth they have and have fashioned Godly churches and lives that have born much good fruit for Christ, just as many Catholics have wasted some of the truth they have been given and produced much bad fruit.

I'm sorry to have posted such a long reply, but I thought your sincere question deserved a sincere reply.




"It's fiction"???
I've read some of the posts on this site, and they've given the same lame defense of "The DaVinci Code" that I've heard countless times: "It's just fiction."

In the first place, that claim is not strictly true. Dan Brown claimed his book was based on historical fact, and it clearly is not.

In the second place, many skeptics tried to use "The DaVinci Code" to discredit Christianity - until the book was proven to be a pile of garbage. They had to resort to the "it's-just-fiction" routine to keep from looking like complete idiots. In my opinion, they were too late.

For TC: Some more Christian films
Did you get to see "Amazing Grace?" It was about William Wilberforce and his decades long struggle to end slavery. Wilberforce and his allies are accurately portrayed as devout Christians. This was a very good film that unfortunately, didn't find a big audience.

Also, you should see "Places in the Heart," with Sally Field. It's not an overtly Christian film, but in the end, there's a beautiful scene where . . . okay, you have to go and see it.

Also check out "Bella." Not overtly Christian again, but definitely pro-life.

Mrs. Paddy
What you say is particularly true regarding "The DaVinci Code." So many people tried to use that book to discredit Christianity. Some of them were academics who should have known better. They really looked foolish when the book was shown to be a pile of bunk.

Jesus GAVE the clergy their authority!
Read the passage about the "keys to Heaven". Whatever Peter (or his successors the Popes) rule on Earth holds in Heaven. That is all the authority they need. To be a priest (even a Pope) requires a servant's heart.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Anti-Catholic? Much more....
The Da Vinci Code is much, much more than anti-Catholic. Since it's pre-suppositons strike at the core of the Christian faith as a whole it is profoundly anti the entire Christian faith.

Consider the following recognition by one of histories great thinkers on the LOGICAL outcome of 'getting rid of the Christian faith'. That is to say, faith in the Christian God:

"When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. This morality is by no means self-evident: this point has to be exhibited again and again, despite the English flatheads. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one’s hands. Christianity presupposes that man does not know, cannot know, what is good for him, what evil: he believes in God, who alone knows it. Christian morality is a command; its origin is transcendent; it is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it has truth only if God has truth—it stands or falls with faith in God."

Know who wrote that? That arch athiest, Friedrich Nietzsche in his Twilight of the Idols!

Those like Ron Howard, et al, who wish to have 'no God mucking about in the world, MUST of necessity give up any claim to those moral truths that keep both him and his family safe. Throw away the God of the Bible and His son Jesus the Messiah and you toss away also all claim to any expectation of goodness that they offer.

Brad Burt, 2009

Another thought
We, as Christians, can use these kinds of controversies as opportunities to witness and educate, or as speech that must be squashed and censored...I choose opportunity.

Mrs. Paddy
"Perhaps something in the book or film will inspire someone to investigate further and discover the Truth"

Well, that is the one bright spot in all of this. At least it gets the non-believers' attention away from the daily grind enough to, perhaps, question the really important issues.

Holding breath
As a Catholic, I could care less about the movie. I read the books and thought they were okay...it's fiction.

But, I'm with paleocon: I'd really love to see the lefties out in Hollywood take the same tack with a movie about Islam.

I'll hold my breath.

Wow
Lots of you have really gotten into the weeds here. I read DaVinci Code and Angels and Demons. I never got my self all worked up over the books because they are FICTION. I see no difference between DaVinci Code and the Indiana Jones movies (Raiders etc) that nobody got upset about.

I am a Christian, too, and I appreciate some of the posts here that are trying to clarify God's Word on the matter. God Bless you for witness.

I never read or listened to Brown espouse his vendetta against Christianity, and may have backed off on reading his books had I known, but an entertaining book is an entertaining book. I thought the movie version was terrible, but that's the fault of casting and direction.

As far as Catholicism goes, there are plenty of issues with the Church that many question, and I'm sure we will all know the straight story someday. Some religious sects and prophecy scholars even believe the anti-Christ could be a Pope, and the description of the seven hills etc., found in Biblical accounts of end times certainly Could fit Rome.

People love mysteries. I don't think that a story that has just enough plausibility to make it intriguing is a threat to the Very God. Only the followers of Allah seem to have a difficult time trusting that their supreme being can handle a little controversy and must depend on mankind to defend him.

In the end it is between you and God. Ask and He will show you the way. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except by me."

God is perfectly able to use even Dan Brown and Ron Howard to His own ends, if He so desires. Perhaps something in the book or film will inspire someone to investigate further and discover the Truth...I believe that could happen, because I trust My Lord and Savior.

Commodore
"And that's what they are. FICTION!"
________________________________________________

You are able to make that distinction. Others are not.

That should concern both you and the author, if he and you are, as you say, "professed Christian(s)".

Hey Richie
Sit on it!

Sol_Invictus
Trying to elevate the Jewish brand...or diminish it?

Oh, why not?
KenUSA, being a former Catholic myself, I wonder at your criticism of Protestants (of whom I am not) for rejecting the teachings and practicing of Mormons and Mormonism, when the Catholic Church teaches that it, exclusively, is the "one, true, Holy, and Apostolic" church.

Can't have it both ways. Either you agree with the Protestants that Mormonism is a false religion or you disagree with the Church of Rome.

*Shakes Head*
There is so much disinformation out there about Dan Brown that it's not even funny. Ladies and gentlemen, you'll know from my previous posts (I don't post often) that I'm a staunch conservative and a professed Christian. That being said, this hogwash about Dan Brown is just that: hogwash.

If you have read his books, and I've read all of them, you'll see that he is a conspiracy theory author. He writes about conspiracy theories. He made one about the NSA finding an unbreakable code. He made one about finding aliens. He made one about the Knights Templar and Priory of Scion. He made one about the Illuminati.

Oh no, he's threatening the Catholic Church. Horse-hockey! What organization has been around the longest and is subject to many conspiracy theories? The Catholic Church, of course. It's just obvious that he would write books on those.

And there's nothing like publicity. If I wrote books about conspiracy theories, I'd claim they were true in publicity statements too. It sells books.

If you check wikipedia, you'll find that Brown, too, is a professed Christian. I enjoyed Da Vinci Code. I enjoyed Angels and Demons. I enjoyed Deception Point. I enjoyed his book about aliens. You know why? I love fiction thrillers. And that's what they are. FICTION!

Thanks Brent
As is plain from this thread, Catholics take a pounding from all sides in every debate.

"Sola scriptura" ....closes the door on "idolatry, etc..." (paraphrasing). It OPENS the door to Jonestown, Haile Bop, etc. Some of the most vitriolic assaults on Mormons I have ever heard came from Protestants angry that Joseph Smith had the audacity to use the same recipe as Martin Luther to interpret scripture, namely, Scripture, Holy Spirit and individual believer.

To completely ignore 300 years of actual, accepted practice and standardized ritual (the Mass, which by the way, is 100% scripture, nearly 50% old testament) and includes the writing of the books that make up the Bible, is like accepting a biography of a man written by his son, but rejecting any commentary the son makes at the book signing.





Robert 6:38AM, reply #19
"As for the DaVinci Code movie and book, I enjoyed them for what they are: Fictional entertainment.
Of course, since I am not Catholic, my ox wasn't being gored in this instance,"

________________________________________________

Wrong on both counts and extremely naive.

First, it is fiction, but hardly entertainment. The author, Brown, has made it explicitly clear in numerous interviews that his intentions are more nefarious than that. He is a non-believer who intends to undermine Christian faith through his "art".

Secondly, the average non-believing movie goer, being Biblically ignorant, cannot distinguish between Roman Catholic fallacies and Biblical acccuracy, and conflate the two. Being eager to justify themselves rather than seek Truth, anything they can get that will convince themselves that Jesus is not who He says He is and therefore they do not have to give up their sin, they will eagerly grasp at as legitimate.

That is the spirit behind this series and it does its job well.

The increased boldness and ubitquitous nature of the deceptions about, should alarm every Bible believing Christian in the West and get us to take our Faith much more seriously than we do. While we have the time.

"Night comes when no one can work" Jesus


Galatians 5:7-10
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

When judgment time comes, I don't think the defense "but it was just a crackerjack good fiction yarn" is going to fly.

I agree that Hollywood will never take on Islam in the same way it takes on Christianity...people like Brown and Bill Maher are basically cowards. They only strike out at Christians because they know we're commanded not to respond with violence--besides, we're confident that God can take care of Himself (see Galatians reference above).


Tired of Hollywoods fantasies and lies
I didn't read the book because from what I had heard it was anti-Christian. I'm not catholic but I am a Christian and it bothers me when such people go to such lengths and lies to try and say bad things about the church. But what bothers me far more is when they say the Gospel is a lie. So when then the movie came out, there was no way I would pay my money to see it. And when I saw that Ron Howard directed "Angels & Demons" ........ I knew it would be a waste of time to go see it. God said.....vengence is mine and as Christians we are not suppose to retaliate. I don't feel there is any harm in writing an article exposing the "untruths" that were promoted by the book and movie, but other than that.....we as Christians are suppose to let God take care of it. He is very merciful so I'm sure he will give Ron Howard and the author of these books plenty of room to repent for the things they have said. And I pray that they do.

Opie Gone Bad
As a Christian who also happens to be Roman Catholic, I will pray for the souls of Ron and Dan. I grow weary of the attacks against Christianity but I believe Jesus told us they would come and we must pray for strength in these troubling times.

Sublime Target
The very fact that Ron Howard and Dan Brown can beat up on the Catholic Church and continue their lives untroubled by any serious backlash negates their theme of Roman Catholicism as villain.

What I would like see is Brown write a novel about Mohammad and how his theology led to the death and torture of millions throughout history and Howard could make a movie out of it.

Yeah, right! They would have to hire bodyguards to nursemaid them for the rest of their lives!

The Roman Catholic Church is the greatest brand in history and no other institution has survived for over a thousand years of human history. Danny and Ronny can play their games and mock it but they will be gone in the blink of an eye and the Roman Catholic Church will still be here, still strong after centuries of battering by the unbelievers and still propagating the great, sublime message of Jesus Christ.

Jake (reply # 21) on indulgences
Thanks for the more complete explanation of something I had only heard the worst about!
Very good on recognizing the wrongness (and ceasing!) the sale of such things.

In part, though, your reply nibbles at the core of my stated objection to Catholic practices: The idea that any earthly person has any authority to grant another person a different after-life experience.
Nope. The Bible makes it clear that God is NO respecter of persons, and that we ALL (even the POTUS!) occupy the same "pay grade" vis a vis our standing before Him, with the only exception being the "saved vs lost" state.

Please note: I have NO "axe to grind" with Catholics per se, nor am I a seminary-trained theologian, or an expert in ancient languages (though I DO have an interlinear bible, which gives the direct translations of both Greek and Hebrew), so I don't want to launch a lengthy debate on these issues, which would be a definite "hijack" of the thread.
Just stating my own beliefs as I understand them, and welcoming anyone else to do the same.
Bob

The Roman Catholic church...
...has been around for 2000 years or so.I think we can survive the 7Sticks! :-)

Palecon, BillK9

The bashing of Christianity, unabated with very few exceptions* since the mid-sixties, will only continue. Hollywood loves mocking Christians.

As for Hollywood mocking Islam? Yeah, right. Like that's going to happen. There's a better chance the three of us will co-star in a Angelina Jolie flick.
.....................................................................

*exceptions: "The Trip to Bountiful", "Chariots of Fire" and "A Place in the Heart"

Bob
To you and all non-Catholics who speak about indulgences, please try to understand what indulgences are before you go complaining about them.

An indulgence is nothing more than taking years off your stay in purgatory. There are two kinds, Plenary (which means complete) and partial. Theoretically if I go to confession today, then complete some separate act of either spiritual enrichment or charity tomorrow, avoid all sin, particularly of the mortal variety, and die (not through my own fault) on Sunday, I will go straight to heaven. Skipping the indulgence (the act of charity or spiritual enrichment), I will have to spend time getting purged before actually getting to heaven, but I'll get there eventually. If I don't go to confession, I take my eternal life into my own hands, and that's not such a good idea.


Indulgences haven't been sold since the Middle Ages, and modern Catholics, including the clergy, know and admit the wrongness of that behavior. In the Middle Ages, when the Church had a degree of civil authority, not just spiritual authority, indulgences were used to reduce or eliminate the earthly penalty imposed by the Church (Punishments imposed by the king were not covered by indulgences). That's why they were sometimes bought and sold. Again, the wrongness of that act being self-evident nowadays.

Sticks
To borrow a quote from Dr. Leonard McCoy of Star Trek fame, from the episode entitled "Friday's Child": "What [7Sticks] says is unimportant, and we do not heed his words."

Howard, movies, Catholicism, etc.
I liked Howard in "Happy Days" as Richie.
That he has found success in Hollyweird, no one can deny.
As a Christian (Protestant), my primary issue with the Catholic church is their insertion of ANY person as an additional mediator between man and God, in clear violation of scripture, which says that is the role of Jesus, and Him ONLY.
I don't even really have an issue with the basic premise underlying the Catholic practice of "confession",(where someone admits their sins to another Christian, expresses remorse over them, and states an intent to cease from them, and is assigned an often somewhat meaningless task of making recompense), since the priest is not really granting forgiveness of the sins (which he has NO authority to do!), but simply informing the penitent of what the scripture says:"If we confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
Now as for the practice of the selling of "indulgences", well, that's another matter! :-)
As for the DaVinci Code movie and book, I enjoyed them for what they are: Fictional entertainment.
Of course, since I am not Catholic, my ox wasn't being gored in this instance, but I CAN empathize with the Catholics in that regard.
From my perhaps simplistic view of things (based on the Christian Bible), it appears to me that God only recognizes two states of man, whether you want to call them religions, denominations, lifestyle choices, or whatever.
You are either "saved" from the inevitable consequences of your sins, or you are not.
ANYTHING else is simply an artificial means of setting one group of people at odds with another, and only serves to make reconciliation (NOT the political perversion!) more difficult.
Bob

7 Sticks can STICK IT!!!!
Scott,

One of the priests who taught us religion in HS was part of the Assisi Underground. They risked their lives smuggling Italian Jews to safety in Switzerland. The Pope knew and endorsed this scheme. Remember it was only the fact that Hitler needed Mussolini that kept him from shipping all the Catholics to the camps.

He HATED Catholics almost as much as Jews. He kill ELEVEN million civilians, 6 million Jews represent the largest single group.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

I can't wait
for Ron Howard and Tom Hanks to offer an exciting mystery set in the awe-inspiring beauty of Mecca. And no, I won't let them hide from the fatwas at my house.


Roman Catholics and Jews
As a Roman Catholic (convert of 16 years) I am always distressed to know that there is such deep misunderstanding of and animosity toward what people perceive to be the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. Certainly, many people in The Church - from Popes to laity - have committed grievous sins against all kinds of people throughout its 2000+ year history. That is the broken state (from the moment of the Original Sin) of all mankind - and The Church is made up of people, broken in nature just like all people. What The Roman Catholic Church has not done is to waver in its Christian doctrine which was laid from the Teachings of Our Lord Jesus, who came not to absolve the Covenants God made with the Jews, but to fulfill them and perfect them with His Life, Death, and Resurrection. He handed to his disciples - the men called The Apostles - His Authority for preserving, spreading, and bringing to Fullness of Light His Commandment of Commandments: to Love. That is the Tradition and Guiding Principle of The Roman Catholic Church, and what authentic Christian of any flavor could deny that as the basis for their Faith, if truly authentic? We do not 'believe in'.'worship', nor attribute 'magical powers' to any objects, but, rather employ art-work (icons, images, music, decorations, symbols, even clothing we call 'sacramentals') to stimulate and focus our natural senses to aid our attention on The Divine. We believe we are in Brother- and Sister-hood with the Jewish People, based on our common foundation of Faith laid out in the Old Testament, and given us in Full by God in His Beloved Son. I pray for Healing of all wounds among all people, yet knowing that perfection is not of this world, but of Heaven. Pax vobiscum.

Hollywood
Hollywood is out to make MONEY! Directors such Howard cares nothing about truth or accuracy. They could care less that they insult Catholics because they know their is no retribution. Lets see if they ever make a movie over Islam where Muhammad turns out to be murderer. Don't hold your breath America.

Hollywood
Hollywood is out to make MONEY! Directors such Howard cares nothing about truth or accuracy. They could care less that they insult Catholics because they know their is no retribution. Lets see if they ever make a movie over Islam where Muhammad turns out to be murderer. Don't hold your breath America.

Hollywood
Hollywood is out to make MONEY! Directors such Howard cares nothing about truth or accuracy. They could care less that they insult Catholics because they know their is no retribution. Lets see if they ever make a movie over Islam where Muhammad turns out to be murderer. Don't hold your breath America.

The7sticks - Part 5 of 5


The7sticks writes: “Whether it's the evildoers who are actively slandering President Obama for attending Notre Dame's commencement ceremony or the diabolical evil ways of the Catholic League of Fascists.”


It has always been a curious thing that so many Jews embrace the Left, when it is the Left that more often than not despises the Jewish religion, and certainly the nation of Israel, often aiding and abetting Israel’s enemies.

The word “diabolical” is an interesting choice of word; it implies a belief in at least some Scripture. I would certainly welcome a discussion of your Jewish beliefs, both about Judaism and Christianity, within the boundaries of Scripture. I believe many Christians would welcome such an opportunity. If you would care to elaborate on your beliefs, we can compare the things you say to God’s Word, and then we can all see for ourselves, whether those things are so. And we might all learn something from one another, and from God’s Word, in the process.


~~~


The7sticks writes: “You want us dead, then we want the Vatican to burn to ashes if we are to ever be safe in this world ever again. We must stop these evil doers at all costs.”


That’s more than just a little bit over-the-top, don’t you think? Without providing any kind of substantiation to back up your claims, such statements strain credulity to the breaking point. How can that be helpful to your cause?


If you have a legitimate case to make, then you should make it, and let the cards fall where they may.

But if you don’t, if all you have is wild, unsubstantiated accusations, then why should anyone take you seriously?

Please, if you have one, make your best case. This is your opportunity.

Carpe diem.


The7sticks - Part 4


The7sticks writes: “Because of that, the Catholic Church is the biggest threat to everyone and anyone we hold dear, even more so than Islamo-fascist terrorists.”


That cannot be true. That can only be hyperbole of the highest order. The fanatical Islamo-fascists openly and proudly call for the destruction of Israel. Given the opportunity, and based on the ongoing evidence of their murderous deeds, I am convinced that they would do it.

To think that the Roman Catholic Church would do such a thing, to even compare the RCC to the current track-record of fanatical Islamo-fascists, is simply not credible based on the facts in evidence.

It is so far beyond credible, that it casts a shadow over your other claims, and throws them into doubt as well. Whatever else you may believe or have allowed yourself to be convinced of, how can portraying your argument in such a way that your credibility is undermined be helpful to your cause?


~~~


The7sticks writes: “Nothing will convince us Jews that the Catholic Church has truly repented it's evil ways, so we need to take more steps than just slandering the Church.”


How does slandering someone else redound to your own benefit? What I mean is, as a strategy, how does that improve your lot?

Besides yourself, for whom else are you authorized to speak, and what evidence can you provide to support your claim?

If you have determined in your heart that no amount of reason, logic or evidence will persuade you otherwise, then your eyes and ears are shut, and your heart is hardened.



The7sticks - Part 3C


[continued from previous post]


“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. [37] Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Act 2:36-38)


If man had not sinned, Christ need not have died. But we are all sinners, and every one of us is in need of Salvation.

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23)

We are ALL guilty. So He died for every one of us who would believe in Him and be saved, according to the plan of Salvation determined by God and revealed to us in His inspired Word.

If there is any Roman Catholic who has singled out the Jews as being responsible for Christ’s death on the cross, he should look in the mirror, because he also is guilty of sin, and Christ died for Him too.

And if there is any Jew who thinks there is a conspiracy among Roman Catholics to despise Jews and hold them singularly accountable for Jesus’ death on the cross while absolving themselves of sin, those Jews should know that it is a practical impossibility that any such conspiracy exists. Individuals may think whatever they like, and odds are that some small number do, but nearly a billion Roman Catholics worldwide could not keep such a thing a secret if there was any such widespread conspiracy or teaching.


The7sticks - Part 3B


[continued from previous post]

Then there is also the matter of the show trials, and these *were* the doings of the Jewish leaders. And when Pilate sought to let Jesus go, finding no fault in Him, the Jews chose to have Barabbas, a murderer, set free instead:

“But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. [21] The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. [22] Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? [They] all say unto him, Let him be crucified. [23] And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. [24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it]. [25] Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children. [26] Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified.” (Matthew 27:20-26)

Clearly, the Jews, God’s own people chosen above all others, played their part. This need not be denied, nor should it be. Some of the Jews who were in attendance on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two were certainly present among the multitude who cried out for Jesus’ death, and when they knew the truth, they understood the magnitude of their error, asking “men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

And Peter told them what they must do.


[continued next post]


The7sticks - Part 3A


The7sticks writes: “They have been virulently anti-Semitic since they think we were the ones who crucified Jesus.”


This seems to be a misunderstanding that I have heard Jewish people express on other occasions. This really is not so complicated.

God knows the end from the beginning:

“Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:” (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God’s plan of Salvation was decided, by God, before the foundation of the earth was laid. He knew that His creation, mankind, would sin; and He knew that His creation would need a remedy for sin, in order to be reconciled back to Him.

It was God’s plan that His Son would die on the cross, the Lamb of God, the perfect and spotless sacrifice, to accomplish what the blood of bulls and goats could not (cf. Hebrews 10:4); to pay the debt for us that we could not pay ourselves, that those who would believe on Him might have life everlasting:

“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” (John 20:31, cf. 1 John 5:13)

So it was God Who determined that His Son would die on the cross, and what God has determined to do, no man could prevent. Thousands of years of prophecy were fulfilled by Christ, going all the way back to Genesis 3:15, in ways that no one besides the Messiah could do. And Christ was obedient to His Father, even unto death on the cross.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)

[continued next post]


The7sticks - Part 2


The7sticks writes: “They make no qualms about it.”


I have debated many Roman Catholics right here on this Forum, and I have never heard any Roman Catholic make any such claim or admission. What evidence will you provide to substantiate your claim?


~~~


The7sticks writes: “Their pope during WWII (Pope Pius XII) actively aided Adolf Hitler in not just tracking down, but aiding in the murder of us Jews during the Holocaust.”


I do not claim to know the whole truth about what happened regarding the Roman Catholic Church and Germany during WWII. I have heard claims, and I have seen some interesting and troubling questions raised (on the History Channel, IIRC), but I am not aware of any evidence to substantiate such claims, at least not yet beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you have any real evidence, now would be a good time to present it. If the evidence is compelling, some Roman Catholics might not believe it anyway, but some will. Present your evidence, make your best case, and let every one decide for him or her self.


The7sticks - Part 1


I am not an apologist for the religion of Roman Catholicism, but I am intrigued by such a bold and uncompromising statement. Instead of unsubstantiated assertions and hyperbolic rhetoric, why not engage in a sincere and respectful discussion, with the object being the honest seeking of the truth, whatever it may turn out to be?

Generally speaking, it is unlikely that you will change the minds of the people you debate directly, and it would be difficult for many to admit error even if they were to discover some inconvenient truths, but if the truth is on your side, the “public” at large will see it.


The7sticks writes: “First of all, the Catholic Church is an evil organization that is bent on wiping out all of us Jews.”


I have seen this charge made against Christians in general, as well as Roman Catholics in particular. You do realize that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was Himself a Jew?

In the genealogical line of David?

“So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.” (Matthew 1:17, KJV)


Do you understand that it is anti-Christian, against Christ, for a follower of Christ to want Jews (or anyone else, for that matter) to be ‘wiped out’?

One thing a Christian should hope is that those who are not Christians would come to a knowledge and understanding of the Truth of God’s Word, recognize their lost spiritual condition, and learn about the remedy Christ provided so that we can be forgiven of our sins. Once learned, I hope that such a person would then avail himself of the remedy, obey the Gospel of Christ, be baptized for the remission of sin, and remain faithful.

Please note, none of this has anything at all to do with wiping anyone out...

Dear 7sticks
What a load of hogwash, historically and factually.
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