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Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Brent Bozell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberal Smears Unchallenged
by Brent Bozell
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The general election season is under way, and the leftists are already displaying their hypocrisy. They've launched pre-emptive warnings against a Republican "swiftboating" of Barack Obama at the same time they're making up wild allegations about the villainous ultraconservative plots against goodness planned by John McCain. The supposed civility police in the media are emphasizing the Obama warnings of a right-wing onslaught, but not the nasty leftist attacks on McCain. Once again, Republicans are painted as the agents of character assassination, while Democrats are angels whose style is sweet civility and whose substance is the refreshing truth.

Obama's campaign is putting up its dukes with a new website called "Fight the Smears." It's topped by an inspirational quote from Obama's June 3 victory speech. "What you won't hear from this campaign or this party is the kind of politics that uses religion as a wedge or patriotism as a bludgeon." In the words of the Almighty Barack, Team Obama pledges to steer clear of negative personal attacks, and avoid seeing their opponents "not as competitors to challenge, but enemies to demonize. Because we may call ourselves Democrats and Republicans, but we are Americans first. We are always Americans first."

The Democrats and the media are going to take a holiday from demonizing conservatives and Republicans? Ridiculous.

Try this exercise. Sign up for Fight the Smears electronic "Action Wire" alerts, and you receive this message from Obama's fundraisers: "Now take the next step and make a donation to help push back on the petty and divisive methods of our opponents."

So much for not demonizing the opponents.

Already, Obama's army of left-wing slime merchants is up on the television airwaves running ridiculous commercials. Did you see the one from MoveOn.org? It features a quavering blond mommy talking about how her baby makes her heart pitter-patter fiercely, but she's gravely concerned the baby might be going to war. "John McCain, when you say would stay in Iraq for a hundred years, were you counting on Alex? Because if you were, you can't have him."

What a pile of ridiculously inaccurate assumptions. First, we have an all-volunteer military. Second, even if President McCain were elected, he wouldn't serve in office for 18 years so he could make sure all the liberal babies of 2008 are sent to Iraq. USA Today was one of the few media outlets to suggest this ad was a foul ball. The Washington Post declared it "dramatically and personally" illustrated McCain's open-ended approach to Iraq better than Obama had done.

Just as Obama's media allies are silent about the left's hypocritical approach to negative campaigns, so, too, are they silent about nasty left-wing videos on YouTube. Robert Greenwald's "Brave New Films" collective has a commercial suggesting that under John McCain, contraceptives would be banned in America. They call their campaign "The Real McCain."

The ad is set in "President McCain's Women's Health Clinic." When a woman asks the perky blond nurse about her contraceptive options, she's handed a list. When the woman protests it's a blank piece of paper and repeats that she asked about birth-control options, the nurse cheerily replies: "And at the McCain Clinic, you don't have any."

Then a graphic reads: "John McCain voted against requiring insurance companies to cover prescription birth control." The fallacious argument within is that if the government doesn't pay for contraceptives, or force insurers to pay for contraceptives, then no contraceptives are available. There's no "option" to purchase your own condoms or birth-control prescriptions? Where are the media smear-fighters on this obvious howler?

Or take a virulent campaign called "I'm Voting Republican" from a firm accurately called Synthetic Human Pictures. Their Republicans are synthetic caricatures. A male doctor proclaims, "I'm voting Republican because I don't really want a cure for AIDS and breast cancer. They're just gays and women." This video clearly isn't meant to be factual, just vicious. This video has 2.3 million views at YouTube.

Cynical liberals think that the only way Obama can lose is for conservatives to take their well-traveled "low road" with negative ads. They've utterly forgotten -- if they ever acknowledged -- the low road they've traveled with millions of dollars in harsh ads against George W. Bush in the last two election cycles. Negative campaigning doesn't always work. But the media always see negative campaigning as a game only Republicans and conservatives play.

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About The Author
Founder and President of the Media Research Center, Brent Bozell runs the largest media watchdog organization in America.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
It's like that old cliche:
"Have you stopped beating your wife, yet?" Republicans can't argue with these silly ads without getting all bogged down in the muck.

What's worse is to run across fellow Americans who BELIEVE this junk! I mean where does an average conservative even begin to combat this stuff?


So-called "Swiftboating"
The Swift Boat Veterans For Truth (SBVFT), as the name implies, told the unvarnished truth about Senator John Kerry's escapades in Vietnam and his disgraceful smearing of his fellow Vietnam veterans after the war as an "anti-war" activist, along with Jane Fonda and the "Winter Soldier" movement, up to and including assassination plots against government officials. Had the SBVFT told the complete John Kerry story, he'd have been impeached, run out of town on a rail, tarred & feathered and sent to prison! John, tell us again how Nixon sent you to Cambodia at Christmastime in 1968 (Nixon didn't become president until 1969!!)

It is a CROSS.

We have to bear it.

The media, and most of acadamia are Stalinists.

They are very stupid.

They will be the very first to be purged.

This is the only bright side of this disater.

I can see them smiling, and singing "Praise The New World Order", as they are rounded up.






There Isn't Going to be a Debate
Anybody who opposes Obama will be a Republican McBush Racist thru 2016&beyond: debate over.

He is the perfect frontman for the radical Marxist Leftist agenda whose race places him in a perfect political situation where it will be impossible to touch him.

His opposition: the bigoted Republicans.
Win the election or get used to it, you closeted racist bigots.

Besides, even if McCain wins, how will the whitest (almost bleach white)politician ever to run for the presidency not win without the perception of racism sticking to him. Just imagine the headlines: America's Not Ready!

But one thing is for sure: if there is a debate, I'll be surprised if there will be any real memorable substance to come out of it.





Barack Lies
Barak Obamas first general election ad says he passed laws that "extended health care for wounded troops who'd been neglected". The ad provides a citation at the bottom of the screen which reads, Public Law 110-181. The problem is, Obama "never voted for that legislation" The bill passed in January by a vote or 91 to three with six not voting. Obama was among those six absent senators. Don't believe me? Look it up!

Liberal projection
For the most part you can tell what a lib is up to by listening to what they accuse others of. It is a vast left wing conspiracy.

The definition of "swift boating"
All this amounts to is telling the cold harsh truth about a Democrat candidate that he, the media, and the rest of the Marxists in Congress don't want anyone to hear.

The definition of a bigot is anyone winning an argument with a liberal and/or minority.

Add to this O'Vomit's declaration of the laundry list of things you can't discuss. His FALSE black identity. The fact that he WAS raised a Muslim and attended Muslim schools (there is NO leaving Islam, you are an apostate and must be killed), his associations, his wife's college thesis, his wife, his lack of any experience, his rating among the most far left liberals in congress and so forth.

He has proclaimed himself both the Messiah and the "baby seal" of the election. Don't question the Messiah, just vote for him. Otherwise you're an evil racist Republican bigot beating up on the baby seal. Bring a barf bag to the polls.

Ray
NRA Life Member

Taking Campaign From Clinton Playbook
I know our political memories seem to be very short, but I remember Clinton in '92 or '96 constantly telling us what "they" were going to say about him.

This is Obama's tactic. The American electorate may have been fooled once, but hopefully, not twice.

I've seen this movie before and I didn't like the ending.

And BTW
"They" were right about Clinton just as "they" will be right about Obama. Know why? Because both Clinton and Obama were/are exposing their very faults to the public and mocking us for not believing them.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. NObama now or ever!

Living Down Baby Alex Image
I am having a vision of Baby Alex when he becomes old enough to have a life (assuming he ever gets loose from the clutching hands of his quivering Mommy). Can you imagine as he enters his profession and should he begin to show some success, every article and mention of him will end *He is best known as Baby Alex whose Mommy said that John McCain Cant Have Him for the military.* Likewise if he becomes a drunken, drug-addled rock star, a college drop-out, or a soldier.

Perhaps Alex would live a happier life if Mommie would hire a nanny and get herself a life that did not revolve so completely around Baby Alex.

my 2 cents
What Bozell is citing is just smart campaigning on the dems' part. Instead of tut-tutting he should be making concrete suggestions for how to fight back. It's not as if the ads are unpredictable - have a team ready to counter them. What is so difficult about that?

"This is what he said."

"Here are the facts" - cite sources.

This is NOT going to be a nice campaign.

"Fear The Liberal Democrats" Won't Work
This year, the GOP can't win with the old horror movie re-runs. Zogby is right, the coalition is dead, and Bush, not Hillabama, destroyed it.

As a conservative for 50 years, I mourn the morphing of the GOP into a junior partner of the Democrats. But frankly, conservatives like Brent should have been attacking BUSH long ago -- both to turn the tide before it was too late, and to be honest, and maintain credibility.

As for the war, I agree with the gal in the Move-On ad with regard to my family: because under McCain there WILL be a draft, and my kids ain't goin'. Iraq is an illegal, unconstitutional war, and McCain stands for nothing in refusing to oppose it.

Chuck Baldwin and Ron Paul are the only honest guys left. The rest are wallowing in the trough.

Chris
It is Democrats who have been calling for a draft because of the supoosed gap between the poor and the wealthy sons going off to join the military. I asked my husband about the draft, he seems to think that the draft would be a catastrophe if only form the point of view that a true soldier fights for his brethren soldiers; while a draftee just wants to get his rear-end out of there and into the nearest hole as soon as possible.
I'm voting for None of the Above myself.

losing the debate
Both "swiftboating" and "McCarthyism" have a common thread: a central truth to the discussion that must be ignored at all costs. Obfuscation and outright lies are used against the messenger (the speaker who tries to explain this, not the vets) to prevent having to deal with the fact that history can be true or false, and in these cases the conservative side is demonstrably true, but the twittering side refuses to admit it.

wahhh!
"Mommy, them mean old Democrats ain't plaing fair"

I hope the Democrats and teh Republicans eat each other alive.
Maybe then, the public will awaken to the fact that neither of them have the country's best interests at heart.

We need a third party to rise above the childish fray.

Play in the dirt...
...and your gloves will get muddy; the mud will not get glovey.

Politics has always been a messy business, and increasingly reflects our Jerry-Springer-show culture. I don't like it, but it is a fact. Perhaps the McCain campaign should start a website called "StopTheLies".

Or, to be more in keeping with the spirit of this election, maybe "BiteMeBarack.com" would be more appropriate.

I don't have a horse in this race, but the audicity of the dopes is getting me mad enough I might actually vote.

And it definitely won't be for The Obamessiah.

king libwipe
It won't matter what poor little alex's mom wants. If NObama wins, and by the time poor little alex turn 18 we will be under sharia law and little alex will be off on jihad somewhere.
NObama will kill America.

Regarding the draft.
Republicans fear the draft because if everyone faced the possibility of losing a loved one in our forign follies, they would demand the USA have a saner forign policy.
That is what the neocons (and by extension, the cons) fear most.
As it stands, most Americans are content with the status quo, since their precious snowflake is not at risk.

Audi
You hit on an aspect of this ad that brought up the bile in the back of my throat. I thought it was caused by just the thought of NObama.

Obama will Solve Real Crime!
Obama never mentions the nearly 16,000 murders in America last year.

Obama never mentions the nearly 20,000 forcible rapes in America last year.

Obama will attack the real crime in America - 'hate speech'.

"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

THE BLUEPRINT FOR CHANGE
Barack Obama’s Plan for America
------------------------------------------------
Obama will staff the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department with lawyers who prosecute civil rights violations, employment discrimination, and hate crimes instead of political cronies.

Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
Obama will strengthen federal hate crimes legislation and reinvigorate enforcement at the Department of Justice’s Criminal Section.


Smearing Bush
How about the smears from MoveOn.org and Code Pink who accused President Bush of putting men and women in the Armed Forces in harm's not because Sadam Hussein was a threat, but because the President wanted to take people's attention off of domestic issues. I didn't see Obama objecting to that smear.

Smears Against Obama
FOX called Senator Obama's wife his "baby mama", which is a street term meaning that she is the unmarried mother of his illegitimate children. Right off the bat I can't think of a worse smear than saying Obama's person's born-in-wedlock little girls are bastards.

KingLib - a lot of noise makes right?
So the fact that a lot of people think the ad is wrong means it must be right?

It was a brilliant political move. Obama is a brilliant politician. All he has done for the last dozen years is run for offices. The problems here:

A) People in church circles are called hypocrites when they say that certain behaviors are evil in others and then act that way themselves. Obama is lauded for his hypocrisy.

B) For all his skill at running a campaign, the guy has yet to show any ability to run anything other than community organizing. I'd vote for him as head of the United Way, or my local PTA; but the Executive Branch is set up to be run by a person, not a committee of thousands. He DOES NOT have the experience to lead.

Democrats not as good apparently
So Obama has been accused of being a secret muslim, a black nationalist who was sworn into congress on the bible. McCain had an ad produced against him highlighting his claim that he is ok with our having a hundred year presence in Iraq, and another highlighting his vote on requiring insurance coverage of birth control. And these are supposed to be vaguely similar.

Do people here really not see the difference between making hay with people's actual view and just making stuff up?

Given the advent of independent groups which the candidates have little control over, I expected Bozell to be able to come up with some obscure group that was actually sliming McCain the way Obama has been. Remember back in 2000 the Bush people started a rumor that McCain had fathered an illegitimate black child. Now that is real sliming. But the examples that Bozell has come up with are just sad. I guess the Democrats are not as good at the sliming thing as the republicans are.

To Beckie
I love it that when you wanted to know what's what, you asked your husband. Is he omniscient? (Look it up, Beckie---or, no, ask your husband). Look. Obama, coming from political nowhere, organized the campaign, influenced the people, and raised the money that vanquished the powerful Clinton machine. Has your husband done something like that? And BTW Obama is not alone in wanting to equalize the pressures of this war, which are being disproprotionately borne by a relatively few families. If war is good, then it should be equally good for all of us.

BTW, tell hubby that the incidence of suicide among our current military volunteers has broken all previous records. Something isn't right if these kids are "choosing" their career and then opting out by turning their service weapons on themselves. My drafted husband served in World War II for four years @ $20 a month. His drafted brother got blown off a torpedoed ship; his skull was fractured in fourteen places; he survives with a metal plate in his head. Neither of them committed suicide.

Fantasy Election
This is like watching a fantasy. The media reports on conjecture, innuendo, and assumptions...this is supposed to be reporting? The democrats point fingers of blame and the media reports this as fact, the republicans then say mea culpa...and throw one of theirs overboard...i.e. McCain dissing the repubs any time he can. The media's elitism is evident in its reporting...dam the republicans and give the democrats a pass...same old, same old. txpoljldy

lilly
That is the best you can come up with? One (one!) FNC anchor makes a stupid and off-the-cuff remark, is punished and banished for it, and you say it's part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. The entire National Broadcasting Company and its various outlets make a conscious decision to become the official PR firm for Hoosey Obama's campaign and you applaud the fairness and justice.

I'm starting to worry about you.

Don't take my Alex
Unfortunately, with liberalism, poor little Alex would probably be in an abortionist's trash can before evil John McCain could draft him

Grow UP
People on the right disagree with Leftist policies which destroy liberty and freedom.

Leftists just think conservatives are evil.

Soap opera mentality is too vacuous to really address. It requires so many facts to disappear that you can't really cover it all in one sitting.

Here is a short list of the things lefties can't understand but are undeniably true:
1. Private sector works GREAT until government meddles in it. For an example see healthcare now versus the when medicare/medicaid started.

2. Dictators don't care how nice you are to them, the will take your carrot and then do whatever they planned to do anyway. For example see N Korea, Palestine, Iraq and Iran.

3. Capital gains taxes move investment overseas.

4. Estate taxes punish peoples kids to profit politicos.

5. Graduated income taxes keep people from growing their income over time to be financially independent; it basically keeps the middle class in its place.

For those still in their baby crib, stop asking the government to run your life and do it yourself.

Baby mama - get your facts straight
It was not Fox news that used that term. They were reporting a mantra that "outraged liberals" were chanting.

I don't think newscasts should report every stupid thing people chant. But Fox news did not call her that. Be truthful.

exWyomingite
I had planned on posting a response to King Liberal, but after reading yours, I find there is nothing more to say. Well done.

For DavidM
What I have seen consistently here at TH is the same mantra over and over again.

Obama and the Democrats want to install a marxist regime in the US.
They will tax us to death and tax our initiative away.
Taxes should be for defense only and nothing else.
Down with the death tax.

And so on....
What puzzles me is the fact that, to benefit from The conservative way of finance and government you have to be making $250,000 and up. Everybody else has lost economic power in the past 7 years. Take estate taxes. For a couple, estates less than $3.5 million are exempt. how $3.5 million to leave their kids? what tiny tiny percentage is that?
As for private companies and farms, that is a very big red herring. Farms are taxed under a completely different section of the tax code; and companies can and do employ accountants and lawyers who minimize, negotiate and otherwise lower the value of an estate, to minimize taxes. I know. For 15 years I valued private companies for estate and tax purposes.

Poor Alex
Baby Alex will be just fine in Iraq in 18 years. John McCain is not my first choice for President, but I support his idea of a 100 year presence in Iraq. Note: The United States still has a presence in Japan and Germany. Any wars there lately? Are those countries prosperous? It would be great if it turns out as good in Iraq.
People, do your homework before condemning a statement that makes perfect sense.

They're going to smear me
Just my saying so makes it an issue, and therefore I don't have to discuss real issues.

Uh-oh, the race talk is dying down, I must introduce it again.

Barrrraaaaackkkkk.

Difference between left and right wing 527 ads: the truth (swifboaters setting the record straight) versus propaganda (any moveon.org ad)

Smears are fun
They are meant to distract voters from the isuues because iether the candidate running the smear doesn't have any plans the voters will support or they are covering their own piles.

And sometimes it's just plain fun to poke fun. Cruel lies though are from a lack of understanding and just plain ignorance.

Libs are right
We should all be making the same amount of money. The government will tell us how much that is. Then things will be all better.

ex-wyo
"Becoming scrollable"?
That's like saying the sun is making a regular appearance on what seems to be a daily basis. A few more times and I'm going to call it a pattern.

King Lib
Please do me a favor and look up a little phenom called the "Bradley effect" before you post your next Obama leds McCain poll. Or better yet, just ask ex-Wyomingite, he'll tell ya.

Obama and Infanticide
Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfL_H7zg1QI

Devel in the details
Obama can talk about unity and change all he wants but what matters is how is this gonna affect the average American. The reason osama obama talks about change is because he does not want the American people to know what is in store for them if he becomes POTUS. Any politicain who refuses to get down to specifics has something to hide. PS Obama is a Kenyan anchor baby.

Lily
The suicide rate is up for the military but is still less then the same age group of civilians.

Fred:Liberals have been successful in making "swiftboating" into a perjorative just as they have for "McCarthyism". When they do that, we know we have actually hit the mark.

Why Are We Still in Germany?
The threat of Soviet invasion has been gone for seventeen years.

roadkill58..so tell us
what does obama REALLY have in store for the u.s. if he becomes potus?

i want to hear this... please respond in detail.

Did you know Obama
Voted against making gang members eligible for the death penalty if (get this) they kill someone to help the gang. (2001) He opposed letting people use a "self defense" argument when using a handgun to defend their home. Gang members shouldn't get an unduly harsh sentence, however the homeowner that shoots them breaking into their home should. Wow!

American Political Memory
Seriously, people like Bozell and his compatriots have the political memory span of a tree trunk.

Politics has always included negative ads. (And that goes back to the time of the Greeks.) Has Bozell entirely forgotten the ongoing smearing of Bill Clinton? The Clinton death list still comes up from time to time. Has he not noticed the ongoing attempt to paint Obama as a Marxist? The ongoing effort to imply Obama is a Muslim? Someone here just called him a Kenyan "anchor baby." How about the "appeaser" claim?

Obama was wise to establish that web site. McCain should do so as well.

Did you know Obama
Supported higher taxes, raising more then 300 taxes and fees on businesses in 2004? Wow!

Sun
Even FOX NEWS said that the Swiftboat Liars accusations were "Largely Trumped Up"

Obama is a very wise campaigner by his preemptive moves against the GOP smear machine.
Remember, these are the guys who said McCain fathered a black baby and went insane during his captivity. They even went after his drug addicted wife. Classy !!!

To quote Chris Rock: "Bush has been such a disaster that he has made it impossible for a white man to be elected president this time around"

dbz77
Yes, the Soviet Union broke up. So what. What the hell has that to do with our continued presence in Germany? Bill (the philanderer) Clinton sure appreciated our bases there to launch his no-name war in Bosnia. Russia is still a threat! Generally, the Germans still welcome our presence. Europe is a stable region due, in part, because of the presence of U.S. troups.

Obama's Anti-Smear Smear Machine
King Liberal has it 180 degrees wrong when he writes:
"Obama's move was brilliant in that it gets ahead of the right wing smears and basicaly challenges the GOP to campaign on the facts and issues which is something that they don't know how to do anymore because of the Rove whiite house tactics of having the deck stacked with yes men so you have no oversight and can do whatever you want."

Not only does he tag a smear of Karl Rove and Dubya onto his point, but his point is wrong. What the Anti-Smear move does is allows Obama to smear McCain any time he wants in any way he wants and get off scott free, because it's all the Republicans' fault. Even if the Republicans haven't done anything wrong, he has already accused them so all he has to do is point to his own accusation to justify any mendacious behavior he wants in the future.

But he is right about one thing. The GOP must organize a zero-tolerance team to counter Democrat Party and media (but I repeat myself) baseless smears of Republicans and conservatives and turn the lies back on the Democrats who promote them.

Charles
Please post a link to your Fox News Quote. I'd like to see it for myself.

Sandcrabs
Well, SOME Germans appreciate American troops, especially those who offer certain services.

MDooog
That made no sense at all!

Mdogg
You know as well as I that fringe attacks like that are common on both sides. McCain has gotten everything from, "He sold out his fellow POWs" to, "He was never really in a prison camp."

For the record, everything you posted could absolutely be called an attack. Except for saying, "Obama is Naive". That is an opinion, albiet a negative one.



MDogggg
Since you commented on my one post, do you care to comment on the others? 11:43 and 11:49am

Obama Supports Total Handgun Ban
http://husaria.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/obama-supports-tota l-handgun-ban/

American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA, a front for anti-Second Amendment entities) is running an ad in Pennsylvania that says Obama supports the rights of hunters and shooters. “The Democrats and Gun Control” from the Wall Street Journal exposes Obama for the liar he is.

As a state senate candidate in 1996, Mr. Obama endorsed a complete ban on all handguns in a questionnaire. The Obama campaign has claimed he “never saw or approved the questionnaire,” and that an aide filled it out incorrectly. But a few weeks ago, Politico.com found an amended version of the questionnaire. It included material added in Mr. Obama’s handwriting.

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM43_080328_obama_iviquesti onaire_091096.html

MDogggg
I see you have no clue what the "Bradley effect" is. Yet you mock my post anyway? One thing I learded about you is you never let facts get in your way. Good for you.

Peacefrog
"But Ellis Henican, Newsday columnist and Fox News analyst, had another event that defined the biggest political moment of the year — the summer launching of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (search) campaign, which he said set Kerry on a course for defeat.

“It was a story that was largely trumped up, and it was enormously successful,” he said."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142967,00.html


MDogggg
Why the racist remarks?

Charles
Fair enough. Thanks!

Peacefrog
I think the dems learned their lesson form the 04 election. The Swifties pounded Kerry for 6 weeks and Kerry did not respond. To say that the Swifties were an independant organization is laughable. It was a Rove operation pure and simple. Rove's tactic has always been to go after your opponent's strength because everyone already knows their weaknesses. Kerry's strength was his military service so that is what they went after. The Swifties were run by the GOP - they even used Ginsberg as their attorney.

Re: What is truth?
Why is it that only when directed at a Leftist Elitist, such as Barry Obama, is the truth defined as a "smear"?

John
Do you mean "Truths" like he is a muslim?

Re: What is truth?
“It was a story that was largely trumped up, and it was enormously successful,” he said.

Then why didn't John Kerry-Heinz release his military records?

Facts
Rush has Audio of Michelle Obama calling Barack Hussein Obama, : My Baby’s Daddy”.

Liberals forget that The Swift Boat ads exposed THE TRUTH about Kerry.

MoronDog is a Gutless Coward.

Charles
You just may be right. In my opinion what really turned the stomach of the American public more was his vile attack on his fellow soldiers before congress.

lilly: Really?
"BTW, tell hubby that the incidence of suicide among our current military volunteers has broken all previous records."

The majority of said service members are committing suicide because their fickle, selfish wives are divorcing them & taking their homes, savings & children away from them while they are on deployment. Women apply for over 70% of all divorces & military wives are just as bad if not worse. Go tell it the female trail lawyers who actually invented "No Fault Divorce."

As a service-academy educated officer, half my personnel issues while on active duty dealt w/ negative effects of rampant selfish military spouse behavior (e.g., "wayward" wives) on the men under my command.

MDoggg
No official in the campaign has said any of the things you list. Don't confuse bloggers/posters on the web with the actual campaign.

As for Obama being naive or an empty suit--those are critiques, not smears. They're based on things like his comment that Iran is "too small" to be a serious threat. Or his insistence that talking with Ahkmadinijad will stop all this nastiness.

Neither have I heard that he or his wife "hate America." They have done/said things that (I think legitimately)have raised questions regarding the quality/fervor of their PRIDE in America.

Michelle herself said (as we have heard ad nauseum) "For the first time in my adult life I'm proud of my country." Laura Bush btw was gracious when asked about it, saying that on the campaign trail everyone says things they don't mean and that you have to "be so careful" because of how closely you're scrutinized.

Barack refused to wear a flag pin until he learned that the majority of voters did not share his convoluted view that wearing one would somehow be a lesser form of patriotism.

Do Sen. and Mrs. Obama expect not to have to take responsiblity for their own words and actions?

John McCain spoke out against an ad in which a state GOP used the Obama/Jeremiah Wright controversy against a Democrat opponent.

What has Obama said about the Baby Alex ad? Or the Why I'm voting Republican ad? (Paid for by Dem-leaning 527s)

The silence would be deafening--except that he hasn't BEEN silent. What he HAS said is that he is refusing public financing b/c the limits that will place on him will render him unable to fight the Republican 527 hate machines!!

If I submit to you that the man is just another disingenuous politician (which completely undermines the rationale for his campaign as an agent for hope and change!), you will no doubt call it a smear. In my book, it's a critique.

CORRECTION
I was busy typing away w/o the benefit of a spell/grammar checker

Subject: lilly: Really?
"BTW, tell hubby that the incidence of suicide among our current military volunteers has broken all previous records."

The majority of said service members are committing suicide because their fickle, selfish wives are divorcing them & taking their homes, savings & children away from them while they are on deployment. Women apply for over 70% of all divorces & military wives are just as bad if not worse. Go tell it to the female trial lawyers who actually invented "No Fault Divorce."

As a service-academy educated officer, half my personnel issues while on active duty dealt w/ the negative effects of rampant selfish military spouse behavior (e.g., "wayward" wives) on the men under my command.


Demosthenes
Wow, that makes me sick in the stomach! Maybe we should pass some kind of law stating if you start devorce procedings against a spouse while the're on deployment, you get nothing.

exwyominite: please explain
you stated:

"As always, an addiction to feel-good drivel, especially the decrepit old liberal saw about "fairness," blinds you to reality, and leads you to embrace policy that actually harms your client constituencies."

exactly who are you referring to as being democratic "client constituencies" in this passage?

Charles: Spare Me
"The Swifties were run by the GOP - they even used Ginsberg as their attorney."

Spare me. Kerry never publicly refuted a single FACT cited by the “Swift Boat Veterans.” Kerry at that time refused to submit his USN medical records for public review since said records would shed light on “Battle wounds” Senator Kerry supposedly suffered which resulted in three (3) Purple Hearts. Kerry and his fellow “Winter Soldier” veterans did in fact fabricate the “war crime” stories they conveyed during Congressional interviews.

Please drop the innuendo and show a single piece of evidence that the infamous "Darth Rove" had anything to do with the SBVFT organization.

lilly
Actually it was Michelle O which announced her husband as her "baby's daddy" in a campaign speech, which is the real reason of the clip you mention.

Its funny you can't talk about issues like an adult and must instead distort and smear by parroting half-truths and talking points.

And just to add
Demosthenes
Location: VA

Reply # 81
Date: Jun 25, 2008 - 1:03 PM EST lilly: Really?

While unlike the other wars, the VA wasn't keeping as close tabs as they are now. BTW, your experience hits home with me as well.

Swiftboating
Ann Coulter brilliantly (and accurately) defined the term swiftboating as "providing irrefutable proof that a democrat is lying".

Pretty much says it all then and now.

Now if we could just get an accurate definition for "McCarthyism".

Peacefrog2r: OK
“Peacefrog2r Location: PA
Reply # 84
Date: Jun 25, 2008 - 1:12 PM EST
Subject: Demosthenes
Wow, that makes me sick in the stomach! Maybe we should pass some kind of law stating if you start devorce procedings against a spouse while the're on deployment, you get nothing. “

OK. In a society that currently holds a pathological aversion to holding any women accountable for their behavior (e.g., CAPT Nowak, Mary Winkler, Andrea Yates, Debra LaFave, etc.) do you really think that the female-chauvinists and their chivalrous enablers in Congress will allow such a law to pass? Boy, are you naïve.

This issue has existed for years & has only been exacerbated by lengthy overseas deployments. Additionally, after 10 years of legal marriage, regardless of moral tepidity or behavior, spouses are entitled to 50% of all retirement benefits.

Inexperienced Obama
I still would like to know who sought this man out and groomed him for the Democrat nomination.Is it the Soros Machine? Who is Soros fronting for? Inquiring minds want to know.

Barack Hussein Obama,according to Cherie Jacobus,a spokeswoman for the Republican Party,had spent a grand total of 143 days in the senate when he announced for the nomination.

He came in straight from Trinity and Wright,the anti-American,anti-white pseudo-pastor. He had no credentials,to speak of. Look it up.

Did Farrahkan and his militant followers see the potential of this empty suit? Did they know they could so mesmerize the Democrats that they would turn a blind eye to all his negatives?

If the MSM turned on him suddenly,he would drop like a lead balloon,but they are in the tank with Soros,Farrahkan,Ayers and all the other Marxist wannabes.

Is Bozell Looking For Pity?
It is clear that Bozell is playing the victim here on behalf of the GOP and conservatives.

Is Bozell saying, "oh horrors of horrors, Republicans, "never, I say never ever say nasty things about Democrats?"

Are we, on the basis of his article, to feel sorry for the GOP? Are we to feel outrage that a pure and innocent party has been set upon by the evil liberal dogs of spin?

The next time you conservatives are about to say that some group of liberals are promoting victim-hood, you should shut your mouths real fast as you recall this blatant whine of victim-hood by Bozell.

Proud Lib
I think what Bozell is saying is the Dems. cry about being smeared, but have no problem doing the smearing. You know, the old "do as I say not as I do" ploy.

Re: What is truth?
"Do you mean "Truths" like he is a muslim?"

Exactly! He is the product of a black Moslem man from Kenya, Barrack Hussein Obama, and a white atheist woman from Kansas, Shirley Ann Dunham. They met at the University of Hawaii in Honolulu. That is why his middle name is the same as Saddam’s: Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. His first name is taken from the Islamic term in Arabic for “blessed,” baraka, used in the Koran.

His father deserted the family when Barack Jr. was two and returned to Kenya. His mother then married another Moslem studying at UH, Lolo Soetoro from Indonesia. He moved with his mother and stepfather to Jakarta when he was six, where he attended a Moslem medressa (religious school). That makes him a Moslem.

There is no dispute among either ancient or modern Moslem scholars that under Islamic law, a murtadd, “one who turns his back on Islam,” an apostate, must be put to death. Irtidad, apostasy, is committing treason against God, and traitors deserve to be killed.

Should Obama deny he ever was a Moslem, it will compound the problem in the eyes of Moslems.

John Acton is racist
Please stop your racist BS.People like you are the reason we are probably going to lose the presidential election. Please get yourself into therapy or talk to a priest or whatever you have to do to find out why you are so unhappy and frustrated. The problem with the world today is YOU!Fix it.

King Liberal
You are either ignorant or just blinded by your adoration of the DNC.

You miss the point. You call yourself King Liberal, but you are all about indoctrinating the public into a way of thinking. Otherwise you would find the medias blatant one sided reporting as offensive as we do.

Essentially, you are advocating this behavior so long is it conforms to your world view. If it benefits Obama it is brilliant, but if it leans to the right it is offensive.

I say again for the 100th time; fine, say fox news is a right wing organization. Does that even remotely balance out the decidedly left lean of CNN, ABC, NBC, BBC, PBS, NYT, CBS etc.

To date, McCain has been much more about campaigning on policy than has Obama. But the media is far to enamored of the messiah to report that.


John Acton
Muslim, not moslem. What's worse is the post you were arguing against gave you the spelling.

Blanco
What? I've read everone of John Actons post. Please show me where the man said one thing even remotely racist.

JMind
Both spellings are correct!

PeaceFrog2r
I can't remember the name of that former GOP national chairman who was a rock musician. I was reading an article in Politico this morning about the movie about him. The article said this guy is credited with initiating attack ads, going negative and, of course, carrying on the Republican tradition of dirty tricks.

One of the problems I see is the distinction between assumptions between conservatives and liberals. I heartily take offense at the suggestions (or outright declarations) by Republicans that Democrats are traitors to America. (Which from my perspective is a smear, by the way).

I would think that conservatives understand that liberals want what is best for America and show respect for that, but acknowledge that we differ in what we think is best.

However, I do understand - largely as a result of Town Hall - that conservatives start with different assumptions about life and reality than liberals and on the basis of those assumptions I can see where you truly think liberals are traitors.

However, I still find it difficult to believe that conservatives are not aware that different assumptions lead to support for different policies and on that basis preserve respect for liberals who only want the best for America.

This is not the case, however. The case is that conservatives smear liberals up one sidewalk and down the other as "traitors."

It leads one to wonder about the character of conservatives.


Peacefrog2r/John Acton
Well, unlike most liberals I know, I am willing to admit when I am wrong. John Acton please accept my deepest apologies.

Just Can't Stop Themselves
It seems like right wingers simply can't stop themselves when it comes to smearing their opponents. They talk about being honest, but when push comes to shove, a John Action merely repeats a completely discredited smear about Obama. He writes:

"(Obama) moved with his mother and stepfather to Jakarta when he was six, where he attended a Moslem medressa (religious school). That makes him a Moslem."

Obama did not attend a Madrassah. He attended a general school that had no particular religious tone.

See http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/

Furthermore, attending a particular school does not make one a member of that religion. I attended Catholic schools and I pretty much despise the Catholic church.

The reason Obama needs a smear debunking web site is that right wingers abandoned any sense of honesty or fairness years ago during the Clinton debacle.

I do give big credit to Blanco for being one rightie who will challenge the smear process.





Note to JMind
Islam isn't a race, idiot.

King Lib
The term traitor, is over the top I agree. I whould just like to see a democrat admit it's both partys who smear, not just Rep/Cons. Thats all.

John Acton
OK So how does that make him a Muslim? I doubt that you believe that makes him a Muslim but you nevertheless repeat it, making your post an attempt to smear.

Do you not have an evidence based argument to make against Obama so that you have to resort to smears?

By the way, I must be a right wing fundamentalist Republican because I was raised as a right wing Republican and went to a fundamentalist school

JMind
Nice lecture to King Liberal. However....a point of process.

I notice that you use the word "messiah" to describe Obama. Now, I don't know what first used the word messiah to describe Obama, but I do suspect that it was not Obama, himself; I suspect it was not a supporter of Obama; I suspect it was not a liberal who first used that word.

I suspect it was a conservative who first used the word "messiah" to describe Obama. And, I suspect in the very next second every conservative in the United States independently thought of that word, which is why you are all using it today.

But the point of process (which I suspect conservatives are unaware of). Conservatives coin the allegation that Obama thinks of himself as the messiah and then criticize Obama for thinking he is something that he really does not think he is.

And, of course, conservatives don't make decisions (or allegations) based on emotion. It's all pure intellect with you guys.

Vicious Truths
Naive Obama supporters either ignore or fail to understand the nature of his past (and present) association with anarchists (Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn), radical leftists (Frank Marshall Davis, Cornel West), "Black Liberation" theologists (Wright, Pfleger, Farrakan), Socialist organizations (ACORN, Chicago's New Party,Gamaliel Foundation) and embezzlers (Tony Rezco).

Shrewd Obama supporters understand and applaud those associations, but realize their influence on his politics should remain in the shadows, so they attempt to make them appear to be benign and/or inconsequential.

Charles said...
"Kerrys strength was his military service." No wonder he lost the election. Kerrys' lies about his fellow soldiers and throwing his medals away at a protest were really impressive.

Proud LIberal
I too wonder what it is about the conservative mind-set that leads them to see those who disagree about what is good for the country or who question the wisdom of policies as as "un-American, America-haters, traitors, blame America firsters, socialists" etc.

How can you have productive debates about the future of the country with conservatives when one is immediately branded in the above fashion. It appears to me that this kind of name calling or labeling is borne out of an inferiority complex or perhaps just fear.


Make up your own mind
Nedra Pickler of the AP reports that "documents showed Obama enrolled as a muslim while at a Catholis school. Kim Barker, Chicago Tribune, confirms " Obama was listed as a muslim at the Catholi school. Barak Obama was registerd ander the name Barry Soetoro, serial number 203 and enterd the Franciscan Asisi Primary School 1 Jan. 1968 and sat in class 1B... Barrys religion was listed as Islam.

MDogggg
Good your back! Why the racist remarks earlier?

Proud Liberal
How does this quote grab you:
"I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. … I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal … "

Gee that sounds like a lesson in Humility doesn't it.

Its funny you are proud of promoting government power and control(modern liberalism). That freedom and liberty thing in newspeak really means 'I have been provided everything from my masters'.

I guess Castro, Mussolini and Kim Jong Il are proud too, since they sit at the end of the road you are 'proud' of.

Peacefrog2r
Why do you keep repeating this? Do you really believe that because his father registered him as a Muslim when he was six that means he is a Muslim by choice today? You must subscribe to the Muslim belief that being born a Muslim makes on a Muslim forever. This kind of thing only makes you complicit in a smear. Do you not have any real arguments that will withstand examination?

As I said above that would make me a fundamentalist right wing Republican which I can attest to as being totally false.


JPH
Produtive debates? Please tell me who are the ones shouting down speakers and throwing pies in their faces at universities? For once i'd love to see one of you Libs admitt when it comes to smear tactics you guys run with the best of them.

Yes, it no doubt was
"I suspect it was a conservative who first used the word "messiah" to describe Obama"

But why do you suppose? Could it be the blind adoration we still see from his flock of worshippers?

JPH
I'm just stating a fact! Since when does a fact become a smear? Explain!

JPH
I chould care less what religion he belongs to. Look at my 11:43 and 11:49am post and come back and try to change my mind. Better yet come back and try to defend his possitions!

Peacefrog2r
When liberals do that I would say the same about them. I disagree with John McCain but I have not resorted to smear tactics such as trying to brand someone (Obama must be a Muslim because when he was six he was listed as such in his school) as something both you and I know he is not.


JPH
I beleive my post started with "Make up you own mind" I never said he was and never said he wasn't. Personally I chould care less.

We actually agree on something, Mdogg
"I agree - Kerry running as a military guy was an embarrasment"

As far as the swiftboaters go, didn't you hear one of the swiftboat leaders offered a one million dollar reward to anyone who could PROVE that they had lied? Just send him your proof and then you could be one of those evil rich people Obama keeps warning us about.

Oh, I forgot, liberals don't do proof. They just keep repeating there allegations in the media in the hopes there are uninformed people who will believe them.

Peacefrog2r
You said:

"I chould care less what religion he belongs to."

If so why do you keep repeating this other than to try to establish that he is a Muslim.

I am perfectly willing and able to defend those positions but you are trying to change the subject. You are attempting to smear Obama by implying that he is a Muslim. That kind of smear only supports the argument that I was making above that lack confidence in your positions.

JPH
I believe he believes in black liberation theology. He was a member for 20 yrs. Once again I chould care less since he's not getting my vote due to political diff.

JPH
Now that you know what i think he believes, lets debate his above positions.

Ind Observer
Are you aware that the PEOPLE ACTUALLY ON THE BOAT WITH KERRY submitted documents to the leader of the swiftboaters that refute their allegations. So far they have received no response.

Obama
I think this is richly ironic that Obama is making a "pre-emptive strike" against potential Republican smears.

Who has really brought race into this? Well, the 42nd president implied that Obama's SC primary win was due to his skin "just like Je$$e". The smartest woman in the world said that Obama just couldn't win WV and KY due to racism and that the party needed her, which in code means, "someone a few shades lighter".

Meanwhile, has McCain uttered a word about his opponent's race? Not that I've heard. But like a good liberal, Obama is ignoring real problems (the Clinton tribe) and preparing for imaginary ones ('evil' Republicans).

That reminds me of the way liberals handle all problems...Iraq, Iran, and militant Islam are not problems, but 'global warming' is. What a hoot. Did the onrushing high tide knock down the WTC?

Democrats have won on two issues
Issue #1: the definition of swiftboating. The accepted definition of swiftboating is this: to lie about and defame a political candidate, especially about his military record.

Issue #2: Not Alex. The way one can tell that the ad is effective is by the howls from McCain supporters who do not like its message. If it wasn't effective, McCain supporters would say: show that ad, over and over again, PLEASE! Instead, McCain supporters are all upset and blustery about the ad.

One reason the Alex ad is so effective is that the civilian leadership over the past 8 years has consisted of individuals who can be called "chickenhawks", i.e., they are all for the war in Iraq, as long as neither they nor their children have to serve in Iraq. (See: George Bush; Mitt Romney; also, see: commentators like David Frum and Jonah Goldberg; the list of chickenhaws in this administration is very long). Not Alex merely adds Alex to the list.

AZPhil
Think Obama was disappointed that no on one the right has used race in trying to refute his many lies and flip-flops?

Since it wasn't happening,he had to bring the subject up thinking he could get some traction with it.Ho Hum...no takers.

The Democrats at every turn have tried to invoke race and got nowhere with Republicans.I, for one don't give a whit what color a person is. I do care if he does not to what is good for my country.

Peacefrog2r
What is it that you want to debate--that he took those positions or the wisdom of them? I think they are both positions that I would defend, however, I do not know the particulars of either bill. I think he probably voted against the gang member death penalty because he is against the death penalty which an increasing number of American are. It is not equitably applied nor is it a necessarily a deterrent. On the second, I think it is a bad idea to give legislative endorsement to shoot anytime that someone shows up at your door that you feel threatens you.

Rowly
"Think Obama was disappointed that no on one the right has used race in trying to refute his many lies and flip-flops?"

Of course he was, but he and the fawning liberal media will make sure the national debate is framed like this:

McCain: "My opponent was only in Congress for two years and is too inexperienced to be president."

NY Times: "McCain makes racist smears"

AZPhil
I do not know any liberals who do not think Iraq, Iran and militant Islam are problems. Most just have a different idea on how to deal with those problems than McCain or Bush.

Will The Real Obama Stand Up
This very righteous presidential candidate has said one thing one day ("I never heard Rev. Wright say those sermons") and on another day ("I may have heard one or two of these sermons"). He states he's visited "all 57 of our states" getting his own country mixed up with the number of Islamic states.

One question: What religion was he before he was baptized a Christian by Rev. Wright?? Was he Jewish, Hindu, Aetheist, or as his school record showed Muslim? Or, maybe he was just nothing? Which is my opinion of him.

JPH
Shows up at you door? Thats classic! How about climbs thru your window!

AZPhil
NY Times: "McCain makes racist smears"

Can you give me the specific citation for that quote?

MDoggg
And yet you lie again.

Bush never went AWOL.

By the way, have you ever heard of Dan Rather?

Peacefrog2r
Shooting someone, even if he or she is climbing in you window, is serious business. I or anyone else who does it should be have to justify it. There are too many misunderstanding etc. that could lead to the shooting of an innocent person. Your kid might be coming home for the night when you thought he or she was already home or perhaps not even coming home. Even if it is a dumb 15 year old who thought you weren't home coming in to burglarize your home I don't think we should shoot them. There will probably be more innocent people killed by such a law than guilty ones in any case. Even without such a law juries are inclined to give the homeowner-renter the benefit of any doubt if charged which probably wouldn't happen unless there was clear reason to do so. This is one of those types of legislation that more about making gun owners feel good than addressing any real problem.

JPH
"I do not know any liberals who do not think Iraq, Iran and militant Islam are problems. Most just have a different idea on how to deal with those problems than McCain or Bush."

And what are those ideas? Slick Willie had to notice, between BJs, that we were attacked on the Cole, at the WTC the first time, and in East Africa, and he did nothing except when he was about to be impeached. His VP did mandate ethanol to drive worldwide food prices and starvation up, I guess. And he did send guys with AK-47s after Elian Gonzalez, and investigate Bill Gates while ignoring bin Laden, on the plus side. Obama wants to talk nicely to Ahmadinejad because that always works with maniacal dictators.

In good news, though, sea level has only risen by .000000001" since WJC left office.

"NY Times: "McCain makes racist smears"

Can you give me the specific citation for that quote? "

Of course not - that was a FORECAST, not a report of something in the past.

So libs- defend these:
"I will debate John McCain any time any place"
(Now- not so much)

I believe in public campaign financing because it is special interest free and it is fair. I challenge John McCain to join me in committing to it"
(Now, not so much)

"Did they mention I'm black?"
(Apparently they're not mentioning that so I have to)

JPH
"Shooting someone, even if he or she is climbing in you window, is serious business. I or anyone else who does it should be have to justify it."

That's true now. The law is pretty specific in most cases, if the homeowner shoots someone just for fun, he will go to prison. But if the investigation shows an imminent threat (like the intruder is found with a gun or knife), then self-defense is normally declared and the homeowner.


Sunthe1
""I will debate John McCain any time any place"
(Now- not so much)

I believe in public campaign financing because it is special interest free and it is fair. I challenge John McCain to join me in committing to it"
(Now, not so much)

"Did they mention I'm black?"
(Apparently they're not mentioning that so I have to) "

They don't need to - they have the MSM doing it for them. Owlgore uses 20x more electricity than a normal house? YAWN. Stuart Smalley cheats on his taxes and defrauds Air America? YAWN. Michael Moore's movies are hogwash? YAWN.

MDogg
"I believe the rich guy is T Bone Pickens - or something like that. A number of people have accepted his challenge - but he keeps changing his tune"

You are correct - several people have taken him up on that offer and he keeps moving the goalposts.

Pickens is a TX oil man and had a lot to gain from Bush being re-elected. He is making a LOT of money from these high oil prices.

As far as the "Reporting for Duty" thing, as someone who voted for him it made me cringe as well LOL.

It was truely disgusting though to go after his record when Bush used his family connections to avoid the draft. What was even worse was when these "Patriotic" GOP Chickenhawks wore the purple band-aids to the convention. That is an insult to all Purple Heat recipients regardless of political affiliation.

DBZ77 - Yes, I have heard of Dan Rather. The documents were not proven to be falsified or genuine, but the info in them was correct. If it were not for Rather, Charley Wilson might not have helped in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan. He reported the Soviet atrocities from the war zone.

Charles
It's T Boone Pickens. T-Bone Pickens sounds like some sort of blues guitarist.

"The documents were not proven to be falsified or genuine".

Um, the documents were printed from a computer using Times New Roman font, which was not available on typewriters in the 1970s (if ever).

By the way, I have the ORIGINAL Gettysburg Address that Abe Lincoln himself printed in Times New Roman 12. I'll sell it to you for $20,000,000 if you like. It's authentic.

JPH
You miss the point! he's opposed to letting the homeowner use a "self defense argument" under ANY circumstance, if said owner uses a handgun. Also, what does a 15 yr. old become when he's breaking into your house? A criminal!

Peacefrog
"he's opposed to letting the homeowner use a "self defense argument" under ANY circumstance, if said owner uses a handgun."

This is utter nonsense. Now we can't protect our own homes? Or are we just supposed to use golf clubs or roling pins?

JPH
Basically he's trying to take away your right to defend home and family, unless your using a fork to do it!

AZPhil
I kid you not!

Peacefrog
"Basically he's trying to take away your right to defend home and family, unless your using a fork to do it! "

I heard steak knives were okay, too!

AZPhil
What are those ideas?

There have been so many screw-ups in our Middle Eastern policy in the last seven years that it will take a long time to deal with them. In fact one could write a book in response to the mis-perceptions and simplifications in your post.

Let me just address the issue of Iran. In 2001 we were on good enough terms with the Iranian that they offered to help us in Afghanistan. Instead, we branded them as part of the "Axis of Evil." They were the most likely Middle Eastern power that we could have perhaps induced to support us in tracking down terrorists. They, after all, were and still are hostile to Sunnis and Al Qaida. But no, we labeled them as part of the Axis of Evil with the clear implication that they would be next for invasion after Iraq. What an inducement to pursue nuclear weapons!!! We instead supported Pakistan who then had nuclear weapons and was selling them to North Korea and who had supported the Taliban in Afghanistan. What brilliance??? I am not arguing that we should have branded Pakistan as part of the Axis of Evil too but the stupidity and aggorance boggles the mind. Now we are trying to intimidate them when we have only a weak stick at best to back up our threats. They must be laughing at us and thinking that there is no way the the U.S. could do anything about their nuclear program given how overstretched our military is.

We have to find ways to talk to them although admittedly it will be difficult. We have to end the Iraqi war and begin to assist Afghanistan if it is not already too late. We have to mend fences with allies and potential allies in the Middle East many of whom we have alienated by our arrogance.

What is McCain suggesting? More of the same. Wow, that surely has been a disaster!!


I would also like to hear you defend you view that Elian Gonzalez should have been kept from his family. It can't be those vaunted Republican family values.

Hmmm
I guess Obama was right - Republicans ARE interjecting race into the campaign:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/25/nader-cri tical-of-obama-for-trying-to-talk-white/

Oh, wait - Ralph Nader IS a Republican, right?

AZPhil
While a Illinois Senator, Obama opposed letting people use a self defense argument when using a handgun to defend their home. It's a fact!

JPH
If Bush's policies haven't been perfect, Willie's sucked (no pun intended).

"I would also like to hear you defend you view that Elian Gonzalez should have been kept from his family. It can't be those vaunted Republican family values."

You can argue the Gonzalez case, but I don't think it was necessary to send in a SWAT team to "arrest" a five-year-old. Then again, Janet Reno proved at Waco that subtlety was in her character about as much as wearing thongs.

Did you want to buy the Gettysburg Address, because I have otehrs interested as well?

If I break into your house (which I wouldn't), would you feel bad if I threatened you or your wife/kids (if any) and then you shot me? Because Obama won't have that, you know.

Peacefrog2r
Do you have the reference to the proposed legislation. As I have understood this kind of legislation elsewhere, it does not change the current practice but instead wants to grant a complete right to shoot without having to justify it. If this bill would have done otherwise, I would like to see the propose bill.

JPH
"As I have understood this kind of legislation elsewhere, it does not change the current practice but instead wants to grant a complete right to shoot without having to justify it"

This is simply nonsense. Anyone could darken the house and shoot his/her spouse any time he/she wanted. If you think a shooting death will not result in a police investigation, I believe you are seriously misguided.

Charles: OK
"DBZ77 - Yes, I have heard of Dan Rather. The documents were not proven to be falsified or genuine, but the info in them was correct. If it were not for Rather, Charley Wilson might not have helped in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan. He reported the Soviet atrocities from the war zone."

OK. Actually, the documents were verified as being poor forgeries & the info contained therein unverifiable. That's why he and his producer were fired.

Additionally, the only verifiable military service deception is Mr. Rather's: he has consistently characterized himself as a former US Marine. Reality: Mr. Rather flunked out of US Marine boot camp and later spent time in the US Army Reserve.

Having actually read the book "Charlie Wilson's War" years before the movie, I don't recall any substantial homage to Mr. Rather's reporting.

All This Twaddle
merely shows why Bozell is wrong in the original article.

There have been a number of posts regardign the law which Obama supported, but not a single reference to the actual law. The hisotrical record would tell me that the actual law is far, far different from that described by the right wingers here.

I might be wrong, but I find all the discussion and indignation to be a bit overblown absent any actual facts. But that process, i.e. setting up some vague or untrue premise and then just repeating it ad nauseum, has become the modus operandi of the right wing.




Demosthenes
"Additionally, the only verifiable military service deception is Mr. Rather's: he has consistently characterized himself as a former US Marine. Reality: Mr. Rather flunked out of US Marine boot camp and later spent time in the US Army Reserve."

Of course the forged docs that wouldn't fool a 10-year-old were just that - forged. But I never knew the USMC/Army Reserve thing about "Devil Dog Dan". And to think - when I woke up today, I didn't thnk I could respect him any less, and you have helped me with that as well:)

MDoggg
"he most recent was his desire to see the minimum wage raised "not every ten years, but every year."

woah! - that's pretty damn extreme! If that keeps up, poor people might not be so poor...run that past most Americans and they might exchange 'extreme" for "fair..."

Run that past most Americans and they would think you don't have a clue. Are you really from NE? Embarassing.

JPH: OK
“Let me just address the issue of Iran. In 2001 we were on good enough terms with the Iranian that they offered to help us in Afghanistan. Instead, we branded them as part of the "Axis of Evil." They were the most likely Middle Eastern power that we could have perhaps induced to support us in tracking down terrorists.”

OK. This is essentially the same Iranian government who financed the terrorists who bombed the Marine Barracks in Beirut back in the 1980's- killing over 200 Marines. This is same govern who is currently financing terrorists groups in Lebanon. Iran is a documented supporter of terrorism and had been since the overthrow of the Shah.

"Mend fences with our allies"
"Hammer" Canada.
"Invade" Pakistan.
Those are Mr. Obama's apparent starts on allies.

Which allies are we talking about here? If it's Europe, our fences are just fine now that their people threw out the scum who were leading them (and lining their pockets with saddam's money).

Jack
"But that process, i.e. setting up some vague or untrue premise and then just repeating it ad nauseum, has become the modus operandi of the right wing. "

Like the National Guard forgeries? Like LBJ's daisy ad? Like Carter/Mondale's efforts to portray Reagan as senile? Like the media clinging to the "Bush is stupid" mantra even after they found out he did better at Yale than "The Marrying Man?" Like Michael Moore (and others) insinuating that Bush destroyed the WTC AND the levees in New Orleans? Like Owlgore saying Bush wasn't "green" enough while his home uses enough electricity to power Portugal? Like the "vague, untrue" (your words) allegations about Halliburton, which had contracts long before 2000?

AZPhil
I don't think we are in disagreement on that point. But as I understand the proposers of this kind of legislation, they want to change what is already law so that shooters need only show that they felt threatened to justify their shooting whether or not they were. Like other legislation things like tis are sometimes proposed to be able to make points with some constituency. But I would like to look at the bill we are debating to verify that.

JPH
Are you even aware of what the swiftboat group said? I have read that some swiftboaters on that particular mission stated they don't recall any enemy gunfire but some of Kerrys crew say they do remember it.

Are you aware that the swiftboaters debunked Kerrys Christmas in Cambodia claims? Are you aware that naval maintenance records and testimony from his crew prove that his ship was nowhere near Cambodia on the night Kerry claimed he was on a secret mission?

Are you aware that a major news network sent a crew to Vietnam to try and prove the Swiftboaters wrong? A swiftboater had stated that Kerry had shot a half naked, scared, teenager, but the news crew wanted to prove the man was a Viet Cong soldier. The swiftboater then appeared on a national radio show to discuss his allegation about the half naked teenager. He then explained that he was not personally on the scene but had taken his description of the event from John Kerrys own book "Tour of Duty" So the swiftboater didn't lie, he was simply quoting a liar.

Are you aware of the lies Kerry told about his fellow soldiers? Are you aware that left wing anti-Bush groups spent far more on ads to smear Bush, than the Swiftboat group spent on their ads?

Personally I didn't care what the Swiftboaters thought of Kerry. I reviewed his record and his own words to decide.

Jack: OK
But that process, i.e. setting up some vague or untrue premise and then just repeating it ad nauseum, has become the modus operandi of the right wing.

OK- "...setting up some vague and untrue premise" is vocation hardly monopolized by the Right. Does being a self-loathing male grant you your tone of condescension?

Jose Wales
What is so extreme about setting a minimum wage and indexing it to wage increases in general, for example. I don't know if that is what he was proposing, but that would not be an extreme position.

JPH
"they want to change what is already law so that shooters need only show that they felt threatened to justify their shooting whether or not they were. "

I'd have to see it myself. However, and I'm no expert, but I think most homicide investigations are longer than this:

Cop 1: Did you feel threatened, sir?
Shooter: Yes.
Cop 1: Okay.
Cop 2: Ready to get some donuts?
Cop 1: You go get them; I still have to call the coroner.
Cop 2: Yeah, I always forget that part.

JPH
"What is so extreme about setting a minimum wage and indexing it to wage increases in general, for example."

Nothing, by itself. It's the fantasies that Democrats are all about helping the poor when in fact this does the opposite.

How many ADULTS do you know who work for minimum wage? Answer: Not many.

But democrats always trot out the tired old "you can't raise a family on minimum wage". Well, no sh!t. You can't have a vacation home or fly first class on a $55,000 salary. You can't afford to buy your own island if you "only" make $350K, either, but what does any of that prove?

Most minimum-wage earners are teens. Raise the minimum wage, and employers like McDonald's simply cut the jobs, raising teen unemployment, and particularly black teen unemployment. This is how Democrats "help".

JPH
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics

AZPhil
I know of no evidence that a reasonable minimum wage depresses employment.

Actually there are quite a few adults who make minimum wage. Would you compare making a basic living with buying an island. You obviously don't know many people who are trying to make living at the lowest wages or you would not make light of it.

I just returned from Australia and New Zealand where the minimum wages are respectively ten and thirteen dollars. That has to be adjusted for currency differences but they are considerably higher than here. Both economies appear to be booming with low unemployment.

Furthermore, if it is a big factor states that have raised the minimum wage above the federal level should be suffering from higher rates of unemployment and I don't believe that is happening.

Ohmigosh, I'm so sorry, right wingers!
I didn't realize you folks were so easily hurt. Everyday TH columnists find every way under the sun to smear Obama, and everyday TH readers recycle everything they've ever imagined about Obama: he's a Muslim, a communist, a racist, anti-America, pro-terrorist--you name it. Now you guys will reply: But all that's true--that's why we say it all the time! Well, turn about is fair play, as people used to say, and so I conclude that you poor, vulnerable, emotionally dependent conservatives can dish it out, but you can't take it. Spare me your hypocrisy.

Gestell
What are Obamas positions! You know, what are his policies?

Gestell
"everyday TH readers recycle everything they've ever imagined about Obama: he's a Muslim, a communist, a racist, anti-America, pro-terrorist--you name it. "

Ok, I will. I have read comments that Obama is a crack addict, a gay trade, and the anti-Christ.

But in conservo-world these are just part of the alternate parallel conservo-reality. It's not slime, it's breakfast!!

Sophie
I think Bozell is making a point! Dems. are complaining about being smeared at the same time they're smearing McCain. I mean. come on now, you can't havr\e it both ways.

Gestell
I'm not sure who you are apologizing to since I don't know if anyone is offended by your silly remarks, but let me respond to your allegations about the thoughts of right-wingers:

He's a Muslim: Who Cares? I'm not interested in his religion.

a communist: Okay so you don't like that word. How about he's a socialist.

a racist: the jury is still out on that one. Just because he hangs out with racists and attended a church for over 20 years with a pastor who made various racist remarks doesn't necessarily mean he is one.

anti-american: He certainly believes in a different America than I do. He thinks government should give me free health care, raise my kids, pay for my expenses whether or not I work etc. I believe in taking responsibility for my own actions.

pro-terrorist: I disagree with this one. Just because terrorists are pro-Obama does not mean that Obama is necessarily pro-terrorist.




disasterbabe
Do me a favor! Go over to daily kos of huffington post, then come back and tell me how civil they are when talking about McCain. I'll wait.

GeorgiaGal proclaims:
"... The accepted definition of swiftboating is this: to lie about and defame a political candidate, especially about his military record."

That may be accepted definition in the Democrats playbook, but this one's more accurate:

Swiftboating: exposing the lies, deceit and fraud of self-glorifying public officials or candidates for office who exaggerate their military service by lying about their feats of heroism and combat wounds.

In a 2006 Veteran's Day interview, John O'Neill, spokesman for Swift Vets and POWs for Truth commented on the term's usage: "I think that's a word people will use for however they want to. I have always thought that having left wingers go to bed at night, and put their little children to bed, and [saying] Be good little children or the Swiftboats will get you!... "


AZ Says:
"Of course the forged docs that wouldn't fool a 10-year-old were just that - forged."

Right Phil - like you and EVERY 10 year old are EXPERTS in 1970's-era TYPE FACES! Those documents were not forged PHIL - they were COPIES - the evidence against Bush was so OVERWHELMING that the right wing had to attack the veteran newscaster on the AUTHENTICITY of the documents (which they based on type faces) - and Rather should have verified - but to suggest that those documents somehow were untrue - or that Bush was not a LAYABOUT and a bum - while guys like John McCain were being tortured - now that's a nice work of forgery. The most unfortunate aspect of the whole story - which was, of course, the main idea behind the right wing attacks on Rather and those documents, was that the Bush AWOL story got buried - a story that had been floating around for years by texas newsmen and the national media and a veteran and excellent newsman - who made a big mistake, was turned into a pariah by the likes of YOU and eventually canned by CBS - not because of Rather's mistake - but because the White House LEANED ON CBS with threats of less presidential access. So you can have your documents - Rather has a better job now as an independent journalist on HDNet - and he is pretty ancient, and his lawsuit goes on - but nothing - NOTHING - will change the fact that Bush was AWOL from the guard and got PREFERENTIAL treatment and all the other charges I can't be bothered to remember. There's a reason Bush and Republicans are so despised.

It's because he/they suck...

Send 'em to the "Naughty Chair"?
"I do not know any liberals who do not think Iraq, Iran and militant Islam are problems. Most just have a different idea on how to deal with those problems than McCain or Bush."

Or maybe all hold hands for awhile, then pass a joint and get real mellow, man. Later on, sit in a circle and sing songs like "Kumbaya", "Imagine" and "Blowin' In The Wind". Yeah. That oughta do it.


JPH says:
" I know of no evidence that a reasonable minimum wage depresses employment. "

There is evidence that raises in the minimum wage can hurt teen employment - though most of them are not sole bread winners.

Here's why Phil hates the minimum wage: the breadwinners on that wage are mostly uneducated single mothers - and Phil has no use for that low form of life. He doesn't care that without a minimum wage it will be a race to the bottom, because Phil doesn't care if people are paid 2 bucks an hour - or 50 cents an hour, nor does he care that employers - particularly in hard times, would make their workers PAY for the privilege if they could. He cares not about a long history of exploitation and abuse - I'm sure he despises unions, worker protection laws - and just about any law that might ease the burden of the great unwashed - even a little. At the end of the day, neither I nor Phil will need minimum wage. But if it costs me a few extra dollars at the store to help those less fortunate - I'll suffer.
Not Phil...

Let them eat cake...

TrueRed says:
"Or maybe all hold hands for awhile, then pass a joint and get real mellow, man. Later on, sit in a circle and sing songs like "Kumbaya", "Imagine" and "Blowin' In The Wind". Yeah. That oughta do it."

The only process I've seen in the middle east in the last 40 years was Egypt/Israel accords - which exist to this day - brokered by Jimmy Carter. This idea that Iran and Iraq need/needed military destruction at the hands of America - as a CURE for militant Islam - which is about 1000 times less militant than Uncle Sam (based on things like our military bases, numerous warships and nuclear subs - not to mention our complete domination of the sky and endless military budgets) - as opposed to diplomacy backed by strength, is why we have 4000 dead soldiers and 30000 wounded, and no particular American interests served...

But you'll show 'em...

Mdog, you poor sap.
The Bush AWOL story died because it was proven false. Everyone with a brain knows that. That story was proven false back in the 90's when he was running for governor. Bush released his military records. (unlike his opponent) The only people still clinging to this story are those who suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome.

I'm just curious. Are there any psychologists out there? Is BDS a permanent condition or will Mdogg and others return to rational thought at some point after Bush leaves office?

MDogggg
Do yourself a favor. Do a web search Dan Rather gate, read the report of the Independent Review Panel, then come back and apoligize for beong a factless, racist, Jackass! Yeah I didn't forget about your 12:47pm racist post.

Facts is facts, Sophie...
And your reference actually states them from both sides of the story. What these facts tell us, however is another matter entirely. Ironically, the last sentence of the article reads. "At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth."


So Mdogggggggggg
Just where is it you think the "strength" part comes from? Could it be "...things like our military bases, numerous warships and nuclear subs - not to mention our complete domination of the sky and endless military budgets"?

Maybe you'd like to volunteer to go talk about how we should all just get along with some of those peace-lovin' "Freedom Fighters" in Iran/Iraq/Pakistan?


Obama on National Security
"Islam can be compatible with the modern world. It can be a partner with the Christian & Jewish & Hindu & Buddhist faiths in trying to create a better world." Barak Obama 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

compatible = capable of existing together in harmony.
Islam is a 700 AD religion and has NO rights for women.

partner = to join as a partner.
Islam and the Jewish religion partners?
================================================
"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

Obama thinks Hamas and Iran can become partners with America and Israel?

“At the “World Without Zionism” conference held in Tehran in October 2005, as the crowd chanted “death to Israel, death to America, death to England,” the Iranian President Ahminajead said...with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt.”

Obama is talking about negotiating with the madman from Iran who has stated in no uncertain terms that America and Israel will be destroyed im Ahminajeads lifetime?


Obama Will Eavesdrop and Wiretap
Democrats have complained bitterly about illegal eavesdropping and wire tapping.

So the Democrats made it legal!

Republicans tried to get a bill passed legalizing warrantless eavesdropping and telecom amnesty, but was unable. They had to wait until the Congress was controlled by Steny Hoyer, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to accomplish that.

Nancy Pelosi explained that it was necessary to pass the bill for political expediency:

"The congressional Democratic leadership explains that sacrificing the Fourth Amendment and the rule of law is necessary to win some more swing seats."
================================================
Now Satire:

Obama-Messiah and his glassy eyed followers can sing: 'Trust and Obey there will be no other way'

Now Obama can listen to anyone talking about him and charge them with hate speech.

Democrats say they will look at this issue at the end of the 1st Obama presidency to determine what else should be added.

Michelle Obama on Racism
"There is no doubt in my mind that as a member of the black community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the black community first and foremost". Michelle Obama

Obama and Diversity
The core of racism is the notion that the individual is meaningless and that membership in the collective -- the race -- is the source of his identity and value.

'Diversity' entails exactly the same premises as racism -- that one's ideas are determined by one's race and that the source of an individual's identity is his ethnic heritage.

'Diversity' doesn't bring unity - assimilation brings unity.

Democrats Want $10 a gallon gas
Keep electing Democrats!

ANWR Exploration
House Republicans:91%Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Coal-to-Liquid
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 78% Opposed

Oil Shale Exploration
House Republicans: 90% Supported
House Democrats: 86% Opposed

Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) Exploration
House Republicans: 81% Supported
House Democrats: 83% Opposed

Refinery Increased Capacity
House Republicans: 97% Supported
House Democrats: 96% Opposed

175 Members of Congress Have Pledged to Increase U.S. Oil Production. Only One Is a Democrat!


Guiliani and Swiftboating
Last summer, a federal employee union ran some anti-Guiliani ads. Guiliani himself -- the Republican -- decried the "swiftboat tactics" of the union. Over at Lucianne they took Guiliani to task for using the term "swiftboating" as everyone in America except conservative Republicans use the term, instead of using the term "swiftboating" the way that poster TrueRedHead wish it to be used. Sorry, guys, the Dem's have won the war on the term "swiftboating". Be interesting to see what Webster's dictionary says.

Webster's sez
The word swiftboating does not exist. That's because it is merely a political term. As such, the "accepted" definition depends upon how it's used. I guess it's kind of like saying one is "pro-choice" instead of "for abortion" or being "Lewinskied" for... well, you know.

Point is, it's primarily used (mostly by Democrats and the leftie media) in a pejorative manner by those who were embarrassed by the what the Swift Boat Veterens and POW's For Truth exposed.

Peacefrog says:
"Do a web search Dan Rather gate, read the report of the Independent Review Panel, then come back and apoligize for beong a factless, racist, Jackass!"

I agree that the documents weren't AUTHENTIC - I believe they were copies - regardless, I believe the FACTUAL INFORMATION within was ACCURATE - and know for a fact that Rather could've tossed the documents and easily made his case - like I said - when Rathergate broke - it wasn't over the FACTS - just like the Reuters smoke cloud incident wasn't over the facts either - both incidents were seized upon by right-wing droolers like yourself to COVER UP the truth. Bush's AWOL status is not even debatable - except to people who obfuscate and lie - you know the type - see the mirror for a clear definition. As to my racism, i assume you mean the white trash comment. That's not racist. Get it into your reptilian brain: Racism is a system of discrimination codified by law and based on - you guessed it, race. In America the laws have changed but the system is STILL changing - thus, hillbilly, using the term white trash is rude, and crude and nasty - but it's not racist. Just remember, even the lowest white man in America - i.e., White Trash, carried more power not that long ago than the most educated or wealthiest of black men.

Deal with it...

MDogggg
Thank you for explaining racist to me my lazy/black friend. And just think even though your shifty/black thats O.K. with you to. Who whould have thunk it? Thanks

AZ says:
"By the way, I have the ORIGINAL Gettysburg Address that Abe Lincoln himself printed in Times New Roman 12. I'll sell it to you for $20,000,000 if you like. It's authentic."

Phil - the documents were not authentic - though that's NOT been proven - the information WAS TRUE. Just like your copy of the Gettysburg address would dutifully remind us that Four-Score and Seven years ago...

Your cheap tricks won't work: Bush was a yellow coward rich boy who laughed at dopes like John MCcain while drinking beer in Texas. How McCain can stomach (which we know he can't) being anywhere NEAR Bush is testament to the kind of LIES he casually tells...At least Clinton honestly dodged the war, and protested it, instead of using the military to avoid real service and make believe he had/has any respect for a man in Uniform - remember - he thought guys like McCain were SUCKERS. At least Clinton saw them as VICTIMS...
SUCKERS...
John McCain can't raise his arms - but Bush raised about a million beers while McCain suffered...
And Bush laughed...
That's your hero!

MDoggg/Slappy
By the way your still wrong about Rather!

Really,
what kind of nitwits would even take one of those ridiculously exaggerated propaganda commercials seriously anyway? Only idiots would. If there are actually enough of these nincompoops to elect Obama, then the country deserves what it gets.

for AlphaOmega
Stop posting rational facts to these debates. People here need to be able to demonize someone in order to help them in their daily lives. Literte and intelligent thought only makes their brains get warm and start smoking.

MadDoggg, you're a trip!
You are dead wrong about the Rather documents being direct/accurate copies. If they were so, all the erroneous things in the "copies" would not have been there. E.g., the wrong header(s) information, and the Times New Roman typeface WHICH DID NOT EXIST on typewriters in the supposed time that they were generated.

All credit for detecting these things which nullified the validity of the documents goes to the online bloggers which are often persons which have a lot of experience with the technologies of the past decades. Your denial of the obvious belies your inexperience in this area. Being a engineer/technologist myself for 49 years, I had to readily agree with their findings as I evaluated those documents which were publically available.

Don't let the facts get in way of your own biases regarding Bush and Republicans. You'll have to rise above your Democrat/black opinions to be able to assess the MAJOR faults of your party's presumptive POTUS candidate!

Last Ray of hope....
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