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Wednesday, February 06, 2008
Brent Bozell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Move On, Obama
by Brent Bozell
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There's one little three-syllable word that has been left out of most of the Democratic primary coverage on the TV: "liberal." We're constantly told by anchors and reporters how the Republican contenders are fighting over the "conservative" vote and who's more "conservative," and that's true. But exactly the same fight is taking place on the left side, with the Clintons trying to suggest Barack Obama's not sufficiently liberal (he praised Ronald Reagan!) and Obama trying to take Hillary's Iraq war vote and turn her into Rumsfeld in a black pantsuit.

But the news media cannot routinely bring themselves to say that word, "liberal." Obama landed a major victory in the who's-more-liberal sweepstakes. He's been endorsed by MoveOn.org, the screechy hard-left group that distinguished itself last year by taking out newspaper ads denouncing our commander in Iraq as "General Betray Us."

Not only did MoveOn.org endorse Obama, but Obama endorsed radioactive MoveOn, in glowing terms. "In just a few years, the members of MoveOn have once again demonstrated that real change comes not from the top-down but from the bottom-up," he declared in a statement. "From their principled opposition to the Iraq War -- a war I also opposed from the start -- to their strong support for a number of progressive causes, MoveOn shows what Americans can achieve when we come together in a grassroots movement for change."

So Obama supports the people who accuse our generals of being traitors to their country. That's "principled opposition." I'm sure this will make him look impressive to his commanders in Iraq if he gets the keys to the Pentagon.

Obama won 70 percent of the MoveOn member vote, and he's also winning 70 percent of the readers' poll at the Daily Kos -- the radical website whose founder Markos Moulitsas declared when four American contractors in Iraq were burned to death and hung from a bridge, "I feel nothing over the death of merceneries [sic] They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them."

You might not have noticed this turn of events. The news media barely did. That's because Obama's hard-left base is one of those uncomfortable facts that ruins the long-standing narrative that Barack Obama is running for national moderator, a centrist deal-maker prepared to manufacture "the audacity of hope" in fizzy two-liter bottles.

At the start of his Senate career in early 2005, Newsweek put Obama on the cover and lauded him as the "incredibly pragmatic" soul of civility who is "uniquely qualified to nudge the country toward the color purple" (merging the red states and blue states). He was all about "embracing our hybrid origins and transcending our often narrow-minded past."

That article did not display the audacity of hope but the audacity of phoniness, claiming something even the interns at Newsweek knew was untrue. Obama's record since then is about as centrist as Trent Lott's. Obama's lifetime American Conservative Union rating is eight percent conservative. Lott's is 92 percent.

Not every endorsement from the ultraliberal side went unnoticed. Obama's endorsement by Ted Kennedy was greeted by the media in ecstatic terms, as passing the torch of "Camelot." So much for the color purple.

As January ended, National Journal magazine reported its finding that Senator Obama was the most liberal politician in the Senate in 2007, 95.5 percent liberal. Both Hillary Clinton and Obama shifted further to the left last year to compete for the left-wing base. Obama's campaign reacted with sheer denial. Spokeswoman Jen Psaki insisted to National Journal that "he's the one candidate who's shown the ability to appeal to Republicans and the ability to appeal to independents."

Apparently, that's all it takes to put a lid on the Obama's-a-liberal talk. Once again, large parts of the "news" media didn't find any news in the National Journal ranking to disturb their bizarre centrist-Obama storyline. Newsweek did notice the ranking briefly -- in an item that touted allegedly "dedicated" Republicans who are switching to Obama, the "Obamacans." Why are the "Obamacans" important? According to reporter Richard Wolffe, "even small numbers of Obamacans can reinforce the candidate's unity message the friendly outreach may blunt the ferocity of GOP attacks."

Yes, especially if those small numbers of pseudo-Republicans are aggressively promoted by Newsweek, which they will be, if Obama's the Democratic nominee. Mark my words.

In every election cycle, the allegedly professional media elite deny the obvious truth before the electorate's eyes: that the Democrats are nominating a doctrinaire liberal. To in any way dissent from this media distortion is, in turn, reported as a "ferocious" partisan attack. It's going to be a long and frustrating year for conservatives. We're not only going to have to weather constant accusations of racism or sexism (or both) for opposing the Democratic nominee, we're going to be described as vicious for simply telling the truth about their ideology.

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Founder and President of the Media Research Center, Brent Bozell runs the largest media watchdog organization in America.
 
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Curiosity
It's very odd. I know many conservatives are proud of the fact they are conservative.

Why aren't liberals the same?

If you believe in liberalism, go out and be proud about it! It's just as valid as conservatism and should engender the same pride as conservatism should.

Honestly, I think democrats get too scared whenever some nutter in the GOP decides that "liberal" is now a swear word. It's not, just as "Conservative" never elided with "Terrorist" or any other nasty epithet.

What's This "National Journal" You Speak
...Of? Is It similar to "National Review", The Weekly Standard" or "The Nation"? I've never even heard of this journal before, but from what I've heard about it, it's pupose at this time of election year is to come out with who is allegedly the most "liberal" (should I call that an L-bomb from now on?) Apparently, in 2004, they came out with the most liberal senator in congress as, who else, the Democrat front-runner John Kerry.
It's kind of hard to believe that Barack Obama is the most liberal senator in the senate when you also have Bernie Saunders, who is an independent Socialist, or Russ Feingold, who with a certain adversary of yours created the McCain-Feingold bill.
If this is the best dirt you can come up with, then I think you and I are on completely different wave-lengths.

Nutballs
"This year will be a total blowout with the Dems. winning all 3 branches."

I didn't know we get to vote on the Supreme Court this year.

"The bottom line is that the average conservative - a 50 year old white male - will be long dead and forgotten before Conservatives are ever in power again."

Racist.

"I've never even heard of this journal before, "

That just proves you are an idiot.

"but from what I've heard about it, it's pupose at this time of election year is to come out with who is allegedly the most "liberal" (should I call that an L-bomb from now on?) "

In the same sentence you just reversed course 180 degrees. Have you heard of it or haven't you?

"It's kind of hard to believe that Barack Obama is the most liberal senator in the senate when you also have Bernie Saunders, who is an independent Socialist"

"Bernie Saunders" is not in the Senate.

In all sincerity do you think Obama wishing to bomb Pakistan is a good idea? Bombing a Muslim nation teetering on the edge of going crazy Muslim with nuclear weapons is a good idea?

Please understand that I'm not Republican or Democrat. It's unfortunate that "anti-war" voters found a home with a guy who will take us to war with Pakistan or Kenya rather than vote for somebody who really is anti-war and America First.

I suspect these liberals will soon find the virtue in wars on countries that have never attacked us. Never mind, they already did. They never said boo when we bombed the Serbs to the Middle Age setting up an extremist Muslim province in the heart of Europe in the process.

liberal racism
Excellent post by juschill

Liberals love dropping the WM bomb: white male. As staunch worshippers of group identity, liberals are inclined to separate groups based on victimhood. All of the ethnic and identity groupings liberals use are classified by victimhood, meaning all the groups liberals talk about play the role of victim somehow. Except for the anti-victim: white males. That includes all rich people, because according to liberals all rich and privileged people are white males. That is why the Left is so proud of itself this election, they found two candidates who weren't white males, filled them with empty liberal promises, and let the voting begin! Nevermind that neither has any leadership experience whatsoever. Nobody will think they're liberal if they neve call them out on it! Insteal they call them Progressive; it's been too long for people to remember that was a dirty word once, too.

I really think it's very sad and delusional that liberals think they win a debate when they call you a white male. Hit them with facts, and the "well you're just a priviliged white male" comes out, its automatic.

2 cents (inflation adjusted)
The salient fact about the MoveOn endorsement: the Clinton crowd _founded_ the group almost exactly ten years ago, during the runup to impeachment, to do hatchetwork on Bill's opponents. It outlasted its original purpose and became a force in subsequent elections, but it remained (with James Carville, CNN, and the _New York Times_) conspicuously loyal to the Clintons. The MoveOn key ring passed to Hillary as expected, but someone behind the scenes evidently changed the locks. Perhaps the group has finally outgrown HillBilly. Or maybe it's discovered that loyalty to the Clintons conflicts with their own ideals. Anyway, if Hillary can't count on support from MoveOn, she's in trouble.

How could the Fates top this turn of events? With an Obama fundraiser (Oprah as headliner) sponsored by the Reagan Library?

And...
Just for the record, I recall laughing when I heard the ABC News report on the radio reporting on the endorsement by MoveOn, describing MoveOn as an "anti-war organization". Clearly, there is no such thing as a "Liberal".

Generality
It seems to me the terms liberal and conservative differ in generality. Liberal is generic, conservative is not. You rarely hear anyone say he's a _fill_in_the_blank_ liberal the way many will say she's a fiscal conservative, social conservative, neoconservative. You rarely if ever hear someone exclaim she's a true liberal because it means many things, the way some say they are a true conservative, meaning something specific. Lumping labels are funny that way, meaningless, when we should be arguing, to use some early conservative movement terminology, whether someone is a statist or an individualist, terms which cut across party lines that have little to do with principles.

Liberals can't be honest.
If they were, they'd have to admid their socialist ideologies, their plans to take all your income and make us all slaves to the state. They know they can't win if they are honest about who they are. Thus, they are duplicitous in all their ways. Sometimes I wonder if they even know the truth.

The Grateful Dead
have endorsed Obama. That created great merriment in our office, where there are more people the age of the Dead than of Obama, who recall the horrified looks on their kids faces when they found out Alice Cooper is older than their mothers (and that was 15 years ago).

Every time some old fading group of hippies endorses Obama, he loses more credibility. The old hippies are turning him into a family pet. Do you really want your cat to be Commander in Chief?

Which is worse? An old, fading hippie and her flower child husband -- or a pet of the old fading hippies?

The double standard lives on.
I still find it hard to believe that with our war against radical Islam(yes it is real)and the very survival of the West at stake as Islamists wreak havoc and violence around the globe, an obscure, inexperienced senator with a questionablr background seems to be the darling of the left. David duke was skewered(and rightfully so)upon his attempt at politics for his white supremacist views. Well, Obama belongs to a church that espouses loyalty to Africa, and bestows and award on the racist Farrakhan. His Half-brother in kenya(with whom he has contact)is a rdaical Muslim whom wishes to establish Sharia law. Obama attended a Muslim school in his youth. The Media didn't find any of this cuase for investigation...hmmm.

LeishaC writes: Liberals can't be honest


Exactly right!

Except that their not just "socialists," they are quickly becoming the "Orwellian" party, and that should scare everybody who has two functioning brain cells.



Wacky
The reason the Liberals don't want to be called Liberal is that since the Democrats hijacked the word in the 40s, what used to mean "in favor of personal liberty" has now come to mean "leftist", at least in the minds of the people. And the People don't want a leftist in power. They proved that in 2004 when they reelected George Bush over John Kerry.

No way, man
Will writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 2:32 AM

"Let us join hands. This is a happy moment. We are one. We are all proud liberals now. The fog has lifted & here comes the sun."

I'll be damned if I'm going to join hands and sing Kum-ba-yah with a bunch of airhead liberals. Not even if I'm the last true conservative left in our nation. I'll go down fighting first.

The Election
I think I've reached the point where I'd even rather have Rudi Giulianni in the White House than Obama or Clinton.

And that's saying something. Rudi used to be tied with them in my mind.

Liberal vs Conservative
There you go again, suggesting that "conservative" is normal and "liberal" is aberrant. In fact, half of this country is "liberal". We liberals are not warmongers. We believe that a nation should live cooperatively with other nations, relying on diplomacy before threat. We believe that government should attend to the needs of its people. We believe that government should restrain business from exploiting and badly serving the people in the interest of personal and institutional greed. We believe that science-based progress should not be controlled by the ideology of religious extremists. We believe in education. We believe in social tolerance.

The United States has two political parties. In many regards, the hold opposite views of how this nation should be run and how it should live in the larger world. Since 1980 the only impediment to conservative takeover was the Clinton administration, otherwise for 27 years now we have seen steady progress toward the conservative ideal: war, unfettered market, destruction of government, privatization of government services, destruction of the middle class, and the imposition of a radical-right social agenda on all Americans. Now it's time for a change.


lilly
What "radical-right" social agenda are you referring to? The one where judges require parents to submit their children to homosexual indoctrination in public schools? The one where judges, including the Kansas Supreme Court, block attempts to enforce existing laws regarding the performance of abortion? The one where reading biblical injunctions against homosexuality are now considered "hate speech"?

Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

Poor lilly... Needs a crash course in

the CONSTITUTION! I doubt she's ever read it!






"PEACE IN OUR TIME"
George Orwell, author of 1984, one of the 100 Most Important Books Ever Written, said "Pacifism is fascist. This is elementary common sense. Any time you hinder" one side, you support the other.

Liberals don't get it because they just want power, no matter what they have to do to get it, even if it means destroying America in the process.

Class warfare, race warfare, hatred, intolerance, and lies are their weapons of choice.

Any group who would continue to promote the butchering of the most innocent humans on earth, unborn babies, is clearly capable of anything.

I am liberal; I KNOW liberal...
The modern Democrat Party and Obama and Billary are not liberal, they are socialist... and corrupt... and dangerous...

God help us all...

Please pay attention to Lilly
Her post is honest to the point of giving me the creeps. Rarely has anybody expressed the horrors of the left-wing vision for America with such unvarnished clarity. And at the same time, she’s proud of it.

God save us.

Anne vs Lilly; Lib vs Cons
Anne, You struck the cord in one sentence, "read the constitution". Lilly must be one of the Code Pink (Pinkos)out in Berkley who are defacing and harrassing (nice way of putting it) the Marine Recruiting office. How's that working for you liberals? Whatever happened to common sense, decency, equality and such? Not with the rad libs. Remember Pinkos is what we called Commies back in the 50s and 60s. Lilly must be pink and not white.

You might be a socialist/liberal if . .
you think the government is the most capable entity to offset market inefficiencies.

you think the Constitution is irrelevant today.

you think curtailing one person's freedom enhances another's.

you think Cuba's healthcare system is the ideal model.

your higher power is "Government."

you worry that the states might actually govern themselves.

you like to be considered "progressive."

you think government should control all the money and you should control the government.

your definition of a right wing nut, a bigot, a hawk, or an antigovernment extremist would include Ronald Reagan, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, or Abraham Lincoln.

you think 35 hours is an ample work-week.

you view the United States as a rogue nation.

you believe it's our own fault that our enemies hate us.

you actually believe violence never solved anything.

you think wars are best ended by treaties rather than victory.

you have ever uttered with sincerity the phrase, "Give peace a chance."

you believe that anyone who owns or carries a gun will inevitably kill someone.

you think banning guns from honest citizens enhances public safety.

you think a citizen defending self and family with deadly force should be criminalized.

you think Rush Limbaugh is a shock jock.

you agree that Walter Duranty deserved a Pulitzer.

your opinion won't fetch a plugged nickel on the AM dial.

you look to Europe for all enlightenment.

you think your enemies will have a change of heart after sufficient dialogue.

you think the United Nations is the answer to all the world's problems.

you believe humans can control the weather.

you think "The Day After Tomorrow" is plausible.

you think Algore is a credible environmentalist.

you are more worried about what might possibly happen in a few hundred millenia than what islamist extremists might do tomorrow.

Brent, you got it!
Yep, we conservatives are damned if we do and damned if we don't. No matter who gets nominated by the Dems, we will be branded sexists or racists. So what else is new? Bring it on!! Stand up and be counted, Cons!!

Libs are mortally afraid
to disclose their true agenda for they know that that agenda is not acceptable the the voting public. The Dem candidates run from the liberal label because they know it is a losing label.

Isn't it interesting that we have the Republicans in a bitter battle over who is the most conservative, while the liberals are doing anything but arguing their core beliefs?

If you are a person of principle (bear with me, Libs) wouldn't you demand authenticity? Or, is your purpose to win at any cost, including your soul?

The answer for many of us conservatives is to win or lose based upon what we believe and who we put forward to represent those values. That is why McCain is despised by so many and Romney and Huckabee are distrusted by many others.

If Republicans were like Democrats, we would rally wholeheartedly around any candidate who we thought might win.

Obama will be the next President because the core of the Rep party is unhappy with each of our candidates. No enthusiasm=no money and no voter turnout. This election will be a crucible event in our party, forging a strong candidate next time.

Enjoy the moment.


No thanks
Yes, Obama supports those who call our military "traitors".
He's a Soros guy.
It's not instinctive to him to salute the American flag.
He vows to "change America and the world", and conveniently leves out the details of that vision.
He has no experience (which means he will make his mistakes where it really has an impact).
But he has soaring rhetoric.
No thanks.

Useless Conventional wisdom
Every pundit and analyst assumes that 2008 will be the same as the recent past, a divided electorate. The pollsters build these assumptions into their samples, and, viola, they come true. Worse, they project them forward in predicting the general election.
I am a historian and I lived through the 1968 that activists are trying to recreate. If you look back to that, you will make different predictions. Then, too, we had people in the streets, as we have had. Anti war protests were accompanied by race riots. In the end, however, Nixon appealed to the silent majority in 2 landslide victories.
I think that is what will happen, again. If we pay too much attention to what the political junkies who go to caucuses and primaries are doing, we may miss what the larger general public will do. Dick Morris observed that 35% in SC said that the country is not ready for either a black or a woman president. This opinion has no outlet now in Democratic primaries and may be one reason for the strong showing of Huckeberry yesterday. Identity politics and analyzing the vote by demographics ad nauseum misses them, too. Like Reagan Democrats and the silent majority they will defy the conventional wisdom.
History indicates the high probability that the 2008 election will be a Republican landslide like the blowout against the antiwar McGovern and the shelacking of the tax raising Mondale. Because Hillary holds both positions that do not win, I predict that she loses 96 states. Those who presume to predict should at least allow for this possibility, so that conspiracy nuts don't assume that Diebold and Haliburton have stolen the election.

a few points
The National Journal survey probably works fine except for senators running for president. Because they spend so much time campaigning they cast relatively few votes, and tend to miss the more centrist votes, but to return for the more divisive ones. The result is that everyone knows that this rankings gives a slanted view. (I believe that the Journal itself points out that it is not reliable in this case.) But that doesn't stop dishonest people from pointing to it if it helps their case. So Dole was the most conservative senator and Kerry the most liberal until Obama took over. In reality of course none of that is true.

If you look at Obama outside of the election year, I think he came in 12. More interesting is that Clinton, even with the election year slanting, does not come out among the most liberal. This seems to mostly be a matter of her wanting to look tough on foreign affairs. (It was her vote on Kyl-Lieberman along with a lack of other votes that made her appear moderate).

Bernie Sanders moved from the House to the Senate in 2006. He is clearly more liberal than Obama.

The Greatful Dead played a reunion concert in support of Obama on Monday. I think that probably counts as an group endorsement.

On Bozell's argument
The problem with Bozell's argument, as with most of his argument, is that it requires cherry picking evidence to portray a misleading picture.

The reason that the media has been playing up the Republican candidates attempts to woe the conservative movement is that the conservative movement is openly unhappy with their choices, and the republican candidates have been openly wooing them. That is to say the reason for the media painging that picture is that the picture is accurate.

By contrast, there is no comparative pattern on the democratic side. Obama has won the MoveOn endorsement, but that had to wait until Edwards dropped out since he was running as the candidate of the left. Obama has also won the endorsements of most of the moderate democratic officeholders in red states.

Obama can use the Clinton vote for the war against her because 70% of the country now recognizes that that was the wrong side to be on. That is an appeal to every faction of the democratic party (except Lieberman). And Clinton has attacked Obama for once having suggested a preference for a single payer health care plan, that is to say she has attacked him as too conservative in some cases and too liberal in others.

There simply is no pattern on the democratic side that mirrors that on the republican side. It is silly to fault the media as biased because they don't invent a story on the left that mirrors the one on the right.

Anne-ncephalic babbled....
"Except that their not just "socialists," they are quickly becoming the "Orwellian" party, and that should scare everybody who has two functioning brain cells."
-------------------------------
At least, they still have them ... sadly, you are a trifle short in that department.

Check out this short (and hilarious) series of vids: http://therealmccain.com/

I love it!
The right wing noise machine is already gearing up for a battle with Obama. As an Obama supporter that's very encouraging.

I love this propagandistic gem:

"So Obama supports the people who accuse our generals of being traitors to their country. That's "principled opposition. I'm sure this will make him look impressive to his commanders in Iraq if he gets the keys to the Pentagon."

This is a rhetorical tool called "guilt by association". And it's a cheap trick, but I guess Bozell figures it will work well enough with the rightwing rubes.

But think about it for a minute or two and I think most of you will be able to see why it's a lie. It's logically no different from saying that McCain supports the Marines, the same people who raped and killed a bunch of innocent people in Haditha. What kind of a man would support people who could do something like that?

Pretty sick stuff, huh?

Oh well, that's Brent Bozell and the Republican noise machine for you.

And that kind of rhetorical cheap shot is precisely what Obama wants to change. When people ask what Obama wants to change, this is what they are talking about. He gives his opponents the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't go out of his way to demonize them. And he doesn't lie about their positions. And that's why so many people are coming to his side.

Go Obama!
Yes we can, change America.

Phylo out.

Ling Lib
Re: your statement that "The time of the far right dictating terms is over"...
The FAR right has never won out, or dictated anything. Most conservatives are fairly moderate, which is a bitter pill to those who are VERY conservative.
I'm sure that moderate liberals are a vexation to the FAR left as well. Cindy Sheehan is quite put out with her party.

Jetpilot
You forgot another one used in conjunction with "Liberal". That would be "unhinged". But, since you chose to demonstrate it all on your own, you can be forgiven.

I savor the irony of your fulminating about right wing hate as our supposed exclusive property. How progressively tolerant of you.

Yet more irony comes in the form of you claiming that right wing pundits are afraid of free speech by liberals, on a website RUN by those same right wing pundits. Lo and behold, your post is here for all to see. Were I to go to Democratic Undeground, or DailyKos and submit a post supporting conservative ideas, it would get deleted outright within a few minutes. How then are the RIGHT wing pundits afraid of free speech when you are free to post all you wish here when the converse on the left is demonstrably untrue?

In fact, your entire post is sufficiently ironic as to have been written by Loyal Democrat after a 6 month cocaine bender.

It frightens me that someone as illogical as you is operating in the national airspace. I sincerely hope that is a callsign and not a profession.

acceptreality/ true BO agenda
You wrote: "Libs are mortally afraid to disclose their true agenda for they know that that agenda is not acceptable the the voting public."

I agree. it's sad, but I think that most Obama supporters don't want to know the details, because that would ruin the feel-good part they get from him.
He will certainly not disclose the details, for the reason you state.


If you want to know what he stands for, I guess you'd have to read up on George Soros' philosophy.

King Libiot, Lilly, et al
You see the world as Libs=good, Cons=evil. As a result, you look at your goal as the conquest of good over evil. Naturally you would see the turmoil in the Republican Party as a battle between the 'redeemed' vs. the unwashed. Further, you think the enlightened moderates will triumph.

What in fact is happening is a healthy inner conflict over the core beliefs of conservatism. We have an infection (if you will) of those who think conservatism is a philosophy that can be fine-tuned. That cannot happen. One is either a conservative or not.

Goldwater, Reagan and Gingrich were not successful in transforming our political landscape by espousing the Rockefeller, Ford, Spector, Snowe and Chaffe wing of the party. Conservatives won the hearts and minds of voters by offering a core belief in Patriotism, democracy, strong military, low taxes and limited government; in direct contrast to the core principles of the Dem party (which libs do their best to obfuscate).

Conservatism goal is not focussed on winning elections, it has the longer term goal of transforming people's view of what works and what does not. Unfortunately, liberalism is a natural side effect of successful conservatism. Affluence is an opiate that fogs ones recollection of how it is acquired.

That is why God created liberals; it is called 'Cold Turkey'.

lilly
So half the country is "liberal." Well, half the country is not liberal. And those of us who aren't are not warmongers either. We believe that nations should live cooperatively with other nations, relying on diplomacy before threat. And, our non-liberal leaders have done that. But--since the United Nations, which the liberal half of our country believes in so fervently, does not intervene when nations do not live cooperatively and, instead, relies on our country and any others strong enough to do so, is it your belief we should pass? We, the other half, believe that the government should restrain itself and the people should attend to the needs of their own, but that requires the will to do so, which seems not to be found among those who wish the government to do it. Individuals are much better at charitable work than large organizations--especially governmental organizations. We believe that ethics are most important in both business and science. We, too, believe in education, but we do not believe it is the place of education to indoctrinate, rather to present all sides of issues and actually allow our children to form their own opinions. (I was a public school educator for 20 years. Never once did I present my political viewpoint to my students. Today is completely different. My grandchildren have told me of teachers that said they would move to foreign countries if George Bush was reelected. Not only is that unethical, but ignorant. And they didn't move either. Too bad!) And--tolerance is overrated. "Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."--G.K. Chesterton. "Tolerance is another word for indifference." Wm Somerset Maugham Besides which, "liberals" are only tolerant of liberal thinking. They show no tolerance for ideas that do not fit their world view.

Liberals like "Progressive" now
Whatever the label we need to focus on keeping Hillary or Obama out of the Whitehouse. Supreme Court nominees could tilt the court left for generations.
And remember.......

"It's not that liberals are ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."---Ronald Reagan

Liberals and L.S.L. News
The acronym I have for these people is L.S.L. News, which is Lying Secular Liberal News.

We have people in the media who have duped a lot of those in society into drinking the liberal Marxism kool-aid, a la Jim Jones and his followers. They can do this because we have a lot of people who are still ignorant of the whole political process, and more to the point, the real history of the democratic party.

As an African-American it saddens and frustrates me when I see someone like Obama or Clinton (either one of them) show up to a predominately black church or other event like it, and the blacks stand up and cheer, shout and clap like dumb seals not even realizing that it is the dems who have held us down all the years. I was told a long time ago that the easiest way to control people is to make them dependent on you, and that is exactly what the dems do to the poor, disenfranchised, and downtrodden; they want to make it seem like you cannot live without their help. When is the last time --or first time for that matter--you heard a dem tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work to make your life better instead of depending on the government to do it for you? Easy answer...never!

The old saying that if you say something loud enough and long enough and get enough peole to do the same is so true when it comes to the Marxists.

There are people I know and work with who complain about governement control and intrusion into their lives, but they vote dem all the time. When I ask them why they vote the way they do, it's usually explained that they just liked the candidate for the dems better than the republicans. How sad. What we have is a classic case of the running of the lemmings; the blind following the blind to destruction.

You are a thinking man
And I have read many of your posts.
Some of it well written, some not simply because your well spoken thoughts have come from a false basis to begin with.
Like this.
----------

Proud Liberal writes: 11:26 AM
Cons untruthful about liberalism
Conservatives successes may have killed the golden rooster. Conservatives are to blame for demonizing liberalism to the extent that most liberals run from that label. They run from the label not from being ashamed of being liberal but because of the conservative lies they would have to spend their time rebutting. And the MSM shares guilt with conservatives. If the MSM was doing its job it would factually and persistently point out the fallacies, lies and sophistry that has been used by conservatives to demonize liberalism.

-----------
It is you who does not understand true liberalism.
It is you who do not understand who has demonized it meaning today, perverting the once HONORABLE Liberal Founders who Sought the CHANGE from a government by Royalty to an Independent REPUBLIC.

Now the liars of socialism have adapted the once honorable title in calling all their perverted Marxism as liberal.

We Conservatives who WANT TO KEEP THE REPUBLIC UNDERSTAND THIS WELL.
And is why we have aptly called the twisting of words by socialists calling themselves liberals, demons.

LILLY

.....In other words you are a card carrying COMMUNIST ...

.....Your ideas are not new LILLY ..they are old and stale .....you believe in slavery by Government as long as you are one of the beneficiaries .....COLOSSUS

Proud Liberal should be ashamed
Proud Liberal writes: "...most liberals run from that label. They run from the label not from being ashamed of being liberal but because of the conservative lies they would have to spend their time rebutting."

Liberalism is socialism: raise taxes; more government regulation; more spending; nationalized healthcare; limit/punish corporate profits; limit CEO compensation; down-size the military. Liberalism is anti-American.

Mainstream Americans know what liberalism is. That's why liberals run away from the label.

Rebutt that, Proud Liberal!

BOZELLE

.....Read my lips ...it will be Hillary vs McCain in November .....COLOSSUS

Bro: What conservatives know
that isn't so.

Someone had a link on another thread the other day to a time article about whether Reagan's tax cuts or Bush's tax cuts "paid for themselves," with a quote from Mankiew that they didn't.

Reagan increased government levies by raising fees on various things and not calling them taxes.

The Laffer theory did not work during Reagan's presidency (and is in fact a full-employment theory as a Keyensian subset) and will only work during a full employment equilibrium.

Conservatives think they know about tax cuts, but they know the wrong thing.

Doc W
Iraq had been at war with the United States since the 1991 Gulf War in Saddam's estimation. This was revealed in the 60 Minutes interview with George Piro of the FBI, who had spoken with Saddam. Maybe you've forgotten, but the US Air Force was being fired upon often while they patrolled the no-fly zone after the Gulf War. If that isn't a declaration of war, I don't know what is.

Secondly, a member of UNSCOM said in April 2003 that shortly after Baghdad fell to U.S. forces, an Iraqi biological scientist called to tell him that part of Iraq's biological program (read: WMDs) had been moved out of the country and part of it had been destroyed just before Operation Iraqi Freedom commenced. Satellite imagery showed a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria just before the American invasion in March. The New York Times reported this. It seems everyone has forgotten! So--the lie that Bush lied continues! How convenient!

The TRUTH about the Reagan tax cuts
After twelve years of liberal policies in Nixon's two terms and Carter's one term, we had double-digit inflation, double digit interest rates and near-double-digit unemployment (not to mention, an insidious national 55mph speed limit - just a personal pet peeve).

After eight years of Reagan, we've had over two decades of low inflation, low interest rates, low unemployment rate and expansion of the economy that continued IN SPITE of Bill Clinton's tax increase. Thank God for the Bush tax cuts that brought us out of the Clinton recession in 2000-2002.

That's the truth.

beastie boy (10:34am)
Actually, nothing to do with President Bush. Kind of a stretch for you to bring him into it (symptom of BDS: reaching).

If American citizenship "isn't worth anything anymore", and you feel "Europeans have more basic liberties" (such as?), I think you should go live there.
I expect your sentiments mirror those of your candidate. I think he should go live there too.
I want a president who actually loves America.

Wow, lilly
Try getting to know a few common conservative folks. Insularity breeds demonization.

Conservatives shouldn't be hard for you to find. Research the percentages who voted for 'defense of marriage' initiatives in the various states that have gotten them on ballot. Only ultra-radical conservative fascists would be against gay marriage, right?

There's sure a LOT of them war-lovin', unfettered-market favorin', government-destroyin', services-privatizin', middle-class annihilatin', radical-right social agenda-imposin' monsters out there!

Half or more of the population, in fact. You must really hate it here in America, lilly.


Obama vs Hillary on Tax Increases
Obama’s tax proposals target wage earners making over $100k, whereas Hillary’s proposals focus on wage earners making over $250k. Two examples illustrate the difference. Obama wants to raise the long term capital gains tax rate to 28% from 15%. Hillary limits her increase to 20%. Many upper middle class families will feel the impact of the additional tax through the sale of stocks, bonds, and other capital assets. Obama wants to completely lift the cap on self-employment taxes for all wage earners, which essentially places an additional 12.4% tax liability on everyone earning salaries above $100k. Hillary proposes an exemption for earnings between $100k and $200k, so the additional 12.4% self-employment tax increase only affects those making over $200k. Hillary often highlights the situation of her constituents with household earnings between $100k and $200k, particularly in those families where both spouses work in full-time occupations.
My family’s financial situation is a legitimate voting priority. I re-calculated my 2006 income tax liability using just the Obama adjustments noted above and discovered that my tax liability increased by $21,000. And that does not factor in Obama’s proposals for increased marginal tax rates. Our household income exceeds $250k, so I know my family will pay more tax under a new Democratic regime. I accept that. Nonetheless, I appreciate the fact that Hillary focuses on the wealthiest top 1%, where household income generally exceeds $500k or $1 million annually, a much more logical and lucrative target than upper middle class families earning $100k to $250k. Minimally, I credit Hillary for differentiating between the wealthiest 1% and upper middle class families. That being said, I still have my fingers crossed for a Republican victory in November.

phileo: on liberalism...
the truth of the matter is that the way conservatives define the word: liberalism has absolutely nothing to do with what the word actually means. in other words you repubs/cons have twisted into a very negative connotation in todays politics to the point the word now means exactly as you (a repub/con) define it.

what's really odd is that the word "conservative"
is taking on the exact negativity you spin on the word "liberalism".

Hate Choice?
"We're not only going to have to weather constant accusations of racism or sexism (or both) for opposing the Democratic nominee, we're going to be described as vicious for simply telling the truth about their ideology."

Well, guess what, Brent. I will vote for neither this woman nor this black. That is my personal choice. That is still allowed, isn't it? Or is this now called "hate choice?" If the liberals don't like it, so what?

King Libiot,
I appreciate that you cannot engage in discussion without disengaging your brain.

You write: "conservatism cannot be fine tunned."

response: That remains true (BTW,it is also true that it cannot be fine TUNED.). Look at the losers who have tried. They get their posteriors kicked whenever they make they swerve to the left. Even Chaffe could not win against a liberal.

You: "You must be one of the over 60 crowd of boomers who are incapable of seeing that a "CHANGE" IS OCCURRING WITHIN YOUR OWN PARTY."

Response: Please re-read my post. The underlying angst in the Rep party right now is that we have NO viable candidate who remains true to conservatism. Candidates are free to offer any message they wish. And while there are certainly GOP voters who will support the ticket under any circumstances, it does not mean that that particular candidate or his message is being embraced. Conservatism is not changing.

Yes, I am a dog who has seen many many fashions come and go. No matter how unsettled I am by this RINO trend, it is just another bump in the long road to conservatism. Save your pity for your own 'Pity Party' of victims.

Libs will never empower their constituencies because it would only result in the party's demise. Who needs liberals when there are no victims?


Lilly
Thank you for your sober (yet passionate) comments on the state of contemporary american politics.

If the conservative party doesn't marginalize the militant "social issues" wing of the party soon & rein in the neo-cons, this political consortium will become less & less relevant.

The conservative party MUST BE INTERESTED IN MORE than casting out imaginary "demons" in the american bloodstream (pro-choicers & gays & atheists) & it must have greater intersts than sitting around contemplating the "Rapture".

In effect, the influence of evangelicals has cheapened the authentic conservative philosophy (think pre-1970) & turned it into a quasi-biblical holy-roller "Big Tent" revival movement.

my 2 cents
The dems always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. In 2004 I might very well have voted for Richard Gephart but he was gone after the first primary, howard dean's stupid face was all over the place and then the dems nominated john kerry, a man whom I and many of my fellow Vietnam era and Vietnam veterans (I am a Vietnam era vet) consider to be nothing less than a liar a coward and a traitor.

Now they are gonna do it again. Hillary's negatives are skyrocketing and when the press really digs into bo they'll find some beauts and then that comes out and they've done it again. And bo's endorsement from the kennedys is kind of silly too - this camelot revisited routinne is silly. The dems have a genius these days for picking candidates that really polarize john and joan q average voter, both of whose votes are just as good as ours, the elite, intellingentsia, etc. (just kidding folks!)

It'll never happen but I said about a year ago that the best man the dems could nominate is Evan Bayh from Indiana. I stand by that. But as I said it'll never happen.

To Left Angle
"the truth of the matter is that the way conservatives define the word: liberalism has absolutely nothing to do with what the word actually means"

Is this a suprise?
Consider lilly -- to her, 'conservative' means someone who hates mom, America, peace, prosperity and apple pie!

Hillary vs Obama on Tax Increases
Aside from variances in health care proposals, the largest difference lies in their respective approach to tax reform. Obama, ranked the nation’s most liberal Senator, hopes to re-distribute the wealth of America by increasing taxes on upper middle class earners and above. Obama’s tax proposals target wage earners making over $100k, whereas Hillary’s proposals focus on wage earners making over $250k. Two examples illustrate the difference.

Obama wants to raise the long term capital gains tax rate to 28% from 15%. Hillary limits her increase to 20%. Many upper middle class families will feel the impact of the additional tax through the sale of stocks, bonds, and other capital assets.

Obama wants to completely lift the cap on self-employment taxes for all wage earners, which essentially places an additional 12.4% tax liability on everyone earning salaries above $100k. Hillary proposes an exemption for earnings between $100k and $200k, so the additional 12.4% self-employment tax increase only affects those making over $200k. Hillary often highlights the situation of her constituents with household earnings between $100k and $200k, particularly in those families where both spouses work in full-time occupations.

Hillary focuses on the wealthiest 1%, where household income generally exceeds $500k or $1 million annually, a much more lucrative target than upper middle class families earning $100k to $250k. Minimally, I credit Hillary for differentiating between the wealthiest 1% and upper middle class families. That said, I still have my fingers crossed for a Republican victory.

Talli2long: a response...
I beg to differ but in todays political lingusitics, i would say cons have redifined the word "liberalism" into a negative connotation far more than libs have done to "conservatism".

conservatism" is still seen by and large as a positive by a majority of the american public at its base value, however with the advent of
Sen. John McCain as repub prez front runner that is rapidly changing as he attracts more moderate/liberal republicans to the process.

To Doc W
"And just how much of a threat do we face from the radical muslims? Hijackings and suicide bombings are the weapons of the weak. The old Soviet Uniion had tens of thousands of nukes, ICBMs, missile subs, millions in arms--there was a threat."

Which is more dangerous to you -- a high-capacity rifle wielded by someone who doesn't want to go to prison for murder, or a razor blade wielded by a psychopath?

Tell me, how many people were killed by terrorists on 9/11? Now, how many Americans were killed by Soviet military forces from 1945 to the Collapse?

It wouldn't take an ICBM to kill your loved ones -- or mine. A grenade in the mall would suffice. NEVER discount someone who wants to kill your sort, just because they don't have satellites and aircraft carriers.

To Left Angle
"I beg to differ but in todays political lingusitics, i would say cons have redifined the word "liberalism" into a negative connotation far more than libs have done to "conservatism"."

Better visit Salon.com, neighbor. There's an AWFUL lot of liberals just. like. lilly.

"conservatism" is still seen by and large as a positive by a majority of the american public at its base value"

And liberalism is not? Might that have something to do with the changes we've seen in American liberalism in the last several decades?
The problem with American liberalism is that (in order to remain liberal) it must constantly be finding new issues to be liberal ABOUT. Consider: contrary to the hyperbole of folks like lilly, the vast majority of conservatives don't want any rights taken back from women or minorities, nor do they want homosexuals to get thrown in the clink just because of their sexual preference. So, the basic, traditional notions of equal rights are no longer exclusively 'liberal' territory. So how to prove that you're liberal? Well, raise the bar: start arguing that kids ought to be more independent of parents -- you know, getting abortions without parental knowledge or consent, that sort of thing. Start arguing that public schools are under no obligation to notify parents when potentially-objectionable material is going to be presented to their children. Start claiming that pornography and public obscenity is protected speech just like Patrick Henry's oratory.

You know the sorts of things.

Hey, maybe the reason 'liberal' has developed a negative connotation is because liberals have finally pushed the boundaries beyond what most Americans can abide, in their endless search to be the Liberators.

To phileo
As I recall, Pres. Kennedy succeeded in stimulating the economy with tax cuts. But then, much has changed in the Democrat Party -- starting with the current ambivalence toward "Ask not what your country can do for you..."

Clinton/Obama alignment
There isn't much to argue about on the "liberal" side of the ledger - Clinton and Obama would both do a 180 degree turn from Bush policies, which slight differences. The real debate this year is the conservative split with the "ideologues" against the "pragmatists". McCain is fighting to enlarge the Republican tent while the social conservatives still have a narrow focus and want to impose the usual litmus tests on all the Republican candidates. McCain knows that if the Republican's want to retain control of the White House he has to get the independent vote, hence his more moderate views. If he ran as a Bush conservative he would be destroyed in the election. The Republican's are likely to lose anyway - Iraq and the economy will sink the Republican's and rightfully so. They have not been good stewards of our country. Politics too often got in the way of competence.

Huh?
I thought the only word left out of this campaign was "Bush" on the republican side.
Ron ROTFLMAO

There is a two
syllable word that describes leberals: Traitors.

Wacky
We should remember that liberals were the defenders of civil rights in the McCarthy era, the defenders of rights for criminals and accused people and I can't remember how the "soft on war" came about.

But conservatives have been very successful in claiming that liberals were soft on communism, soft on crime and most successfully soft on defense. In reality the liberal positions on communists and criminals are but continuances of our theory about the equal value of every human being and of our resistance to the power invested in the status quo.

Conservatives have also seized the high religious ground, basically claiming that they've persuaded God as to the rightness of the Republican political platform. They attack the foundations of knowledge, which is secular knowledge, the area in which conservatives are doing the greatest harm to the fabric of America.

Liberals say, and I think there is merit to this, that our positions are more nuanced and can't be reduced to "smaller government, less taxes and strong defense" that conservative beliefs are reduced to.

It's really quite a shame that conservatives can be proud of being able to condense what should be a complex view of a complex world into three words.

I hope Obama wins the general election
We have become a bunch of squabbling tribes, from sea to shining sea. Because Obama is such a coward, it will be the best chance for people like me, who think secession will be better for all of us, to form separate countries, and be confident Obama is such a coward, he would not respond with the military.

Lily
We tried living peacefully with the terrorists. We were attacked by them four times under Traitor Bill Clinton, who did nothing to them, and once under Bush who stopped them from attacking the US. Or, have you forgotted that?

Democracy isn't accomplished yet
What seems not to be recognized in these discussions is that democracy was an unrealized ideal upon the writing of the constitution.Voting is just one area, but in 1830 only 5% of adults in America had the right to vote. People opposed this status quo and fought long and hard to expand democracy, with liberals in the vanguard.

One poster complained about liberals finding new things to champion and the fact is that there are things to champion, both old and new, that frustrate the accomplishment of a complete democracy.

Bozell
You read my mind. I was just thinking same thing last night while watching the coverage on PBS. I was in the bathroom and wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to the coverage, so I wasn't looking for anything unusual. But, I kept hearing the C word over and over again until I couldn't help but noticing. Then, it occurred to me. Not once did I hear the L word, not one time. Why are liberals so afraid of what they are? Come to think of it, I did not hear the P word one time either. There is no media bias. LOL

Ron
Be very specific about what Bush did, personally, to stop terrorists from attaching us.

Activating the functions that any president has at his disposal doesn't count as something that Bush himself did.

Remember, specificity.

Proud Liberal
The year was 1863 when Republican President Abraham Lincoln read the Emancipation Proclamation which freed the slaves; and the other year was 1864, when Democrat nominee George McClellan campaigned by saying that if he is elected President, he will rescind the Emancipation Proclamation.

Ron's ...Seems like three now..or is..
Ron ROTFLMAO just having some fun? :) -RonM

(ref 2:07 vs 2:14 & 2:25)

Proud Liberal
Clinton had four reasons to activate those functions, and didn't. That's why we were hit five times.

Only one of me.
If Bush and co. had thwarted an attack on the magnitude of 9/11 I think we would have heard something about it, no?

Ron ROTFLMAO

Oh and don't forget
Bush had OBL cornered in Tora Bora in Dec 2001 and let him slip away. If that wasn't dereliction of duty, I don't know what is (actually i do know, that was falling asleep while he was supposed to protect our country 8 months after taking office).

Ron ROTFLMAO

Liberal Ron ROTF...I have posted just...
Twice today...always with a :) after my comments.
It seems like ANOTHER Ron is posting...Not that I disagree with the new guy...
Who posts no subscript.
Or is that you... having fun :)

Liberal/Democrat
There are only two types of liberals/democrats:

1) Women
2) Eunuchs

It's true - I saw it on the MoveOn website.

There are two of us
Clinton had OBL who was in custody offered to him and refused. Bush let the people who were familiar with the terrain go in to try to catch him. Bush wasn't offered OBL as a prisoner and refused to accept.
when Clinton did send out the military, it was to HELP the MUSLIMS who attacked us all five times.

Only one type of conservative:
Moron

Koz'isms writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 3:27 PM
Liberal/Democrat
There are only two types of liberals/democrats:

1) Women
2) Eunuchs

It's true - I saw it on the MoveOn website.

OK pal,
Put your tin hat back on. Whew!
Ron ROTFLMAO


Ron writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 3:29 PM
There are two of us
Clinton had OBL who was in custody offered to him and refused. Bush let the people who were familiar with the terrain go in to try to catch him. Bush wasn't offered OBL as a prisoner and refused to accept.
when Clinton did send out the military, it was to HELP the MUSLIMS who attacked us all five times.

Too Good For 'em
Calling them "liberals" now is too good for them. They've gone so far left they've become socialists, fascists, and communists now. Rather than build someone up, they want to destroy someone else. Rather than debate, they want to silence. Rather than personal freedom, they want government control. Rather than peace through strength, they want subjugation through diplomacy.

McCain is liberal, Obama and Clinton are socialists. I haven't decided yet if I'd vote for McCain just as a stop-gap measure until we can get someone better, someone right, in 2012.

Socialism sucks!

Wow. Sean Hannity continues to trash
McCain today. Can't wait to see how Hugh Hewitt spins the McCain victory (after the non-stop 3-hour Romney commercials called the "Hugh Hewitt Show").

How does the conservative party move forward? With each passing month, there is more fracture, more recriminations, less cohesion, talk of mutiny.

Dems are equally divided between Hillary & Obama, but there is no bad blood. When either ends up getting the nomination, the party will enthusiastically unite. There's an incredible sense of optimism.

But what happens to the tens & tens of thousands of "I will NEVER vote for McAmnesty EVER" voters? Are the large-scale implications that if McCain were to actually win the presidency, the republican base would re-align itself with different factions & (essentially) morph into a party of "moderates", say (John, Rudy, Arnold)?

We are going to witness a fundamental re-grouping of conservative priorities when all is said & done. There is no way around it. A fundamental re-structuring of what is called the conservative "base". And my guess is that the marginalization of the "social conservatives" (under John, Rudy, Arnold) will help to re-define the party & the influence of "conservative talk-radio" will progressively decline. "Independant" conservatives will recast the mold.

Don't call me a liberal
Liberals shun the L word because liberalism wants to take care of everyone and everything. The poor, the young, the elderly, the uninsured, the disabled, the whales, the polar bear, the spotted owl, the starving third world countries, the environment, the handicapped, the homeless, the oppressed minorities, illegal aliens. Liberalism is also income redistribution from the haves to the have-nots. The concept of liberalism is a noble one. But, in order to do all these things, it takes money, lots of money. And since money doesn't grow on trees, it must come from taxes. The poor doesn't pay any taxes. The rich will always have enough clout to get loopholes legislated in their favor. So, as always, it is the middle working class who foots the bill. Since most voters are from the middle class, it would be political suicide for a Democrat, or Republican in the case of McCain, to call himself a liberal. While all the Republican candidates are telling the voters "I am the true conservative", you will NEVER hear a Democrat candidate say "I am the true liberal". The bottom line is Democrat candidates must lie to the voters or use smooth talk in order to gain their support.

Ron and Ron
I like this dual personality thing you got going on. It reminds me of Billary and Obama laden.

Better get used to it!
They are gonna be the next president!
Ron ROTFLMAO

Koz'isms writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 3:41 PM
Ron and Ron
I like this dual personality thing you got going on. It reminds me of Billary and Obama laden.

tallil2long
You're ever the voice of reason.

Once there was a stoppered bottle
which held the ideas of equality, justice and freedom. The bottle was guarded by a few self-annointed elite who wouldn't let anyone else have access to the ideas within the bottle.

Then one day a little mouse knocked the bottle over. The stopper was knocked loose and for a few precious, terrible seconds trembled on the brink of being sucked back in, but then, miraculously the stopper plummeted to the floor and the ideas of equality, justice and freedom whooshed out into the very air, where everyone, be he freeman or bonded could examine and exlore these ideas; and everyone who examined, thought about, tried out these ideas put his own personal stamp on the ideas, so they could never be the same again, nor the same for any two individuals.

The elites, who had held these ideas for themselves, seeing that they no longer had control of these ideas retreated to a discarded clam shell, crawled inside and pulled the clam shell over their heads. But not before they had stenciled on the outside of the clam shell, "conservatives."

We feel compassion for the less well off
and understand it takes money, which you say "doesn't grow on tree's." But, since the last Democratic administration left a budget surplus, I think we understand the responsibility of handing the peoples money, that certainly can't be said nowaday's, can it?

Ron ROTFLMAO

Gambler5112
The poor do pay taxes.
They might not pay the income tax, but they pay all the hidden indirect taxes which are about 1/3 of the price we all pay for everything. The cost of government could be greatly reduced by repealing all those taxes and removing them from the price. This would be much better than increasing the minimum wage. That's why the dems won't do it.

Liberal Democrat Candidates
Brent, we all know the reason the word "liberal" is never used in the main stream media; they don't believe Obama or Hillary are too liberal, the media believes the democrats like them are moderate middle of the roaders. The media doesn't see itself as liberals, they see themselves as moderates. For example, FOX is considered right-wing conservative but CNN is considered to be main-stream moderates.

Proud Liberal
You had me there for a second. When I read "bottle", I thought you were talking about Ted Kennedy.

Dr Moon
What political bent do you see Fox News?

Ron ROTFLMAO

Proud Liberal: Specific #1
You wanted to know when it started as far as dems conceiving a desire to hold down blacks and the poor. You asked: "give me a year, month and day that this happened for all Democrats simultaneously."

I'll start with this, and then you can let me know if you want more: The official Democratic party platform on slavery in the years 1840, 1844 and 1848, in their own words and I quote:
"All efforts by abolitionists to abolish slavery have the inevitable tendency to diminish the happiness of the people and endanger the stability and permanency of the union."

Wow! What love and warmth from the dems way back then. I'm sure it must have made my ancestors feel warm and fuzzy on the inside. Not!
Is that specific enough for you?

Gambler5112
its funny, your comment made me think about George W Bush driving over the sidewalks and through the shrubs of Kennebunkport drunk.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Dr Moon
Point well taken. Many of my liberal friends turn red in the face when I call them liberals. They would always correct me by saying "I am a moderate".

Cable networks, conservative or liberal?
Fox is right of center. CNN is left of center. C-Span is in the middle. Can we agree on that much? Is the answer is no, then you are a certified partisan and can't be objective. You would be surprise at how many liberals I have met who told me C-Span is a right-wing network.

Umm Tee
The democratic party (Jacksonian Democracy) of the first half of the 19th has absolutely no relevance to the party today, none whats so ever. You should read a recent book about the period in question "What hath God wrought" it will explain quite clearly the differences in political philosophy from then to now. I mean heck, the Republican party in the 1860's wanted to befriend the blackman.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Speech Code
It seems that the MSM observes a self-imposed, agenda-driven speech code applicable to their political reporting. In light of this, Americans can no longer assume that the MSM serves their interests, that is, reporting the truth about government, politicians and their political philosophies. This imposes a burden on Americans to reject MSM spoon feeding and conduct their own search for valid information and truth.

Are Americans up to bearing this burden?

RonROTFLMAO
RonROTFLMAO "I mean heck, the Republican party in the 1860's wanted to befriend the blackman."

Thanks, bud, I really appreciate this great recognition for the Republicans! That's right, we believed in FREE blacks...We went to civil war for that ideal. You can not say the same about liberals - Dems wanted them to remain "interned".

Today, Republicans still believe and fight for individual freedoms. Wow, quite a track record of 150+ years of "staying the course".

Oh, wait, Dems/Libs, too, have such a track record! One of trying to take away personal freedoms. I am sure you can tip your hat to that.

Ummm Ron
Please explain the differences bewtween then and now with the dems and their philosphy.

It is rare that I agree with Hillary or any other dem, but she was right in that Pres. Johnson had a lot to do with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. Taking nothing at all from Dr. King, he was a great man, but had it not been for the republicans who voted in favor of passing the Civil Rights Act it would have failed agin.

If you know your history you will see that whenever the dems in that period which was just a little more than forty years ago, controlled congress and the senate, during that period they squashed any hint of civil rights at every turn.

Get your facts right before you even think you know what you are talking about.

Ummm Ron
Please explain the differences bewtween then and now with the dems and their philosphy.

It is rare that I agree with Hillary or any other dem, but she was right in that Pres. Johnson had a lot to do with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. Taking nothing at all from Dr. King, he was a great man, but had it not been for the republicans who voted in favor of passing the Civil Rights Act it would have failed agin.

If you know your history you will see that whenever the dems in that period which was just a little more than forty years ago, controlled congress and the senate, during that period they squashed any hint of civil rights at every turn.

Get your facts right before you even think you know what you are talking about.

Kozism
What personal freedoms has the Democrats tried to take away from you? I am not missing any myself, but maybe that is just me.

Study your history jack, the political parties as they stand are almost 180 degrees different from whence they started.
"In 1948 Democrats alienated white Southerners in two ways. The Democratic National Convention adopted a strong civil rights plank, leading to a walkout by Southerners. Two weeks later President Harry Truman signed Executive Order 9981 integrating the armed forces. From 1948 onward, southern whites looked for political accommodation for their views. After passage of the Civil Rights Act most Southerners accepted the integration of most institutions (except public schools). With the old barrier to becoming a Republican removed, traditional Southerners joined the new middle class and the Northern transplants in moving toward the Republican party" Wikipedia

Ron ROTFLMAO

Proud LIberal: Specific #2
In 1856 the Democratic controlled U.S. Supreme Court led by Roger Taney, ruled in the Dred SCott decision that blacks are not even human, get this according to the constitution. I have read the constitution and I have yet to see that part about us not being human.

Hmmm.
Republicans controlled the house until the beginning of JFK's term, after that D had control of both, Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, you guessed it in 1964 when the Democrats controlled both houses of congress.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Tee writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 4:32
Ummm Ron
Please explain the differences bewtween then and now with the dems and their philosphy.

It is rare that I agree with Hillary or any other dem, but she was right in that Pres. Johnson had a lot to do with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. Taking nothing at all from Dr. King, he was a great man, but had it not been for the republicans who voted in favor of passing the Civil Rights Act it would have failed agin.

If you know your history you will see that whenever the dems in that period which was just a little more than forty years ago, controlled congress and the senate, during that period they squashed any hint of civil rights at every turn.

Get your facts right before you even think you know what you are talking about.

Tee
I meant to ask you for liberals not the Democratic party. Plus, there is a contradiction in what you invoke. I believe you declared that liberals want to hold blacks down so that blacks will have to be dependent upon government. I don't believe there is anything in the opposition to abolition which also includes dependence upon government.

In usual conservative-speak liberals start trying to keep blacks down in the 1960s with passage of the civil rights act, voting rights act, all those measures in which the police power of the federal government was invoked to win equality for blacks and which conservatives consistently characterize as, from that point on, making blacks dependent upon government, breaking up black families, etc.

Teee
Don't forget the South had more political power than the north due to counting slaves as 3/5 for apportioning purposes. I can't say it enough, but you are comparing apples to oranges in terms of party philosophy of today and yesteryear.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Tee
I agree. As a famous actor once said, "You can't handle the truth."
The truth is, generally speaking, the current Republican Party is the party of the haves, while the Democrat Party is the party of the have-nots. In order for the party of the have-nots to stay in control, the key word control, the politicians need them to stay as have-nots. It is not in the best interest of say Jesse Jackson to have every black person become middle class or better. You keep them poor and toss them a few crumbs at election time, and you stay in power. God forbid, they ever become middle class, want less taxes and start voting Republican like Michael Steele and Dr. Sowell.

Ron
The only differnece I can see between now and then with the dems is that way back then they wanted nothing to do with us and now they just want to patronize and enable us, and make it look like they are helping us.

I thought the repubs
were more of the party of rednecks myself. They neither have or have not since they don't know the difference and just beleive what conservative republicans tell them 24/7 or rightwing hate radio.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Ron
Then I respectfully ask you: What is the dems party philosphy of today?

Why I am a PROUD LIBERAL
(explained with the help of my faithful dictionaries)

LIBERAL:

favorable to progress or reform

free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant

open-minded or tolerant; free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, value, etc.

Not limited to or by established, traditional orthodox or authoritarian attitudes, views or dogmas; free from bigotry

Favoring proposals of reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas & behaviors or others; broad-minded

OBSOLETE: Morally unrestrained; licentious

Favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties

given freely or abundantly; generous

not strict or rigorous; free

synonyms: progressive, broad-minded, unprejudiced, charitable, openhanded

antonyms: reactionary, intolerant, niggardly

Willing to respect and accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience

A political party believing in or allowing more personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society


To Chas:
Now that Fred is out of the picture, I find no viable true conservative candidate left for me to vote for. (I did vote for Fred delegates on Tuesday anyway as I could not hold my nose to vote for the other choices).

I might as well change parties and truly hope Obama wins. This country will elect it's first mulato president who will turn out even worse than Jimmy (American held hostage day 283) Carter. Inflation will be over 50%, upper tax bracket at 80%, entire corporations will move offshore to avoid mandatory health care covereage for their employees, and the Obama chant "Yes We Can" will be replaced with "Never Again". We need to relearn the sad fact that a novel skin color is no replacement for experience.

Obama has absolutely no relationship with the civil rights movement, although he has effective taken advantage of his skin color, even if not its pedigree, to move up the ladder. Harvard law review was an affirmative action appointment, and last night's Illinois acceptance speach sounded like Jesse Jackson wrote it for him.

The stock market thinks a dem will be elected too. That is why everyone is getting out now and its tanking before the big tax hikes.

Beastie Boy @ 10:16 AM

Do you EVER have ANYTHING of SUBSTANCE to post?

Ever? Just once? And it doesn't even have to have a LOT of substance... just a little tiny bit would do...






Hey Tee
Read Flash at 5:05pm below me, that is what we are not-ignorant.

isn't it mere family planning ?
Of course; Democtats are just trying to provide health coverage. After they raise our taxes.

But if an abortionist in her hospitals screws up, and the "fetus" manages to get born intact (fat chance), the doctor (so-called) has that happy option of plunking down that living infant on a shelf nearby, where it'll stay until it dies a horrible, lingering death.

And when Pro-Lifers managed to us forth the bill banning this barbarous procedure (never mind partial-birth abortions) who voted NO on that bill ?

Why, Obama did ! "Nope, can't allow it; woman's chioce, y'know. Let the critter just lay there & die."

Now; if Hillary wants to jerk Barack around a little in the upcoming debate;

Why not accuse him of complying in the wanton murder of little babies ? That might win away some votes from that charismatic dude ! Go, GIRL ! Tell it like it is, Hillary !

will
LIBERAL:

"favorable to progress or reform
free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant
open-minded or tolerant; free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, value, etc.
Not limited to or by established, traditional orthodox or authoritarian attitudes, views or dogmas; free from bigotry
Favoring proposals of reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas & behaviors or others; broad-minded
OBSOLETE: Morally unrestrained; licentious"

All these virtues can only come from the hearts of man, not government imposed.

"Favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties"

No argument here.

"given freely or abundantly; generous"

Charity is great. I do it all the time.

"Willing to respect and accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience"

Tolerance must be taught. Acceptance must be earned.

"A political party believing in or allowing more personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society"

Talking out both sides of your mouth. Personal freedom is taken away when wealth is forcibly taken by the government and redistributed to other people who did not earn it.

Will and tolerance
Just curious. If you guys are so tolerant and open minded, why do you have a fit, say, when we want prayer in schools, want to stop abortions, want to be free from socialism? Don't want same sex "marriage?"
Do not call us intolerant, and then say we can't have what we want. At least I will admit, that yes, I am intolerant of some things. Can you say that?

Tolerant Will:
Liberals are extremely tolerant, (of everything and anything except they are 100% intolerant of anyone who opposes their views that is).

Universal tolerance is the hallmark of a society that stands for nothing.

To be truly liberal, you would have to be tolerant of bestiality, child pornography, wife-beaters, drug dealers (hey they have to eat too), etc.

You would have to abandon all laws as each law restricts or inhibits some behaviour that some intolerant society tried to restrict. You would allow suicide bombers to blow us up at will in the name of tolerance and acceptance of their religious views and your tolerant view of separation of church and state would prevent you from intervening in their "right" to practice their religion.

You would have to allow a Muslim husband who slept with his neighbors wife the right to stone his concubine to death for adulterty.

Your version of liberalism is found in the dictionary, under the term "anarchy".

the flash..Do you pis* in your kitchen..
sink?
cause your post kind of just said that :)

Gambler5112
Amen to you! What little I have I don't want just given to the "less Fortunate." Work for it like I had to.

Worst Post of the Day Award
"the flash" writes: "This country will elect its first mulato president who will turn out even worse than Jimmy Carter.... has effectively taken advantage of his skin color to move up the ladder.... Harvard law review was an affirmitave action appointment...."

----------------------------------------------

I know we all get a little queasy when liberal bomb-throwers such as myself toss around the word "bigot", but can we all please resoundingly agree to call Mr. Flash a bigot? Sometimes the word precisely applies.

Gambler 5112
So you are saying that your personal freedoms are being taken away from you because you pay taxes? What makes you think all your taxes go to people who did not earn it? You make it sound like you are getting a knock on the door at 3am, sheesh.
Ron ROTFLMAO

To Answer Ron:
I find it odd that you are so concerned with my bodidy functions and how I so choose to live in the confines of my own home, which is irrelevant to the content of my post. Rather than ad hominem attacks on the messenger, how about dealing with the issue of the post that suggests there is a lot in common between a BHO presidency and the JEC disater.

(When the illogic of liberal thought is exposed, the owner of that thought will universally resort to name calling. That is how you know you've won the argumment).

I am not the Ron you speak of...
...but my mother told me to never argue with a crazy man.
Ron ROTFLMAO

he flash writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 5:33 PM
To Answer Ron:
I find it odd that you are so concerned with my bodidy functions and how I so choose to live in the confines of my own home, which is irrelevant to the content of my post. Rather than ad hominem attacks on the messenger, how about dealing with the issue of the post that suggests there is a lot in common between a BHO presidency and the JEC disater.

(When the illogic of liberal thought is exposed, the owner of that thought will universally resort to name calling. That is how you know you've won the argumment).

Liberal Ron ROTF...just some info
Sometimes taxes are created to subjugate a population...
I think it was in Africa that the gov levied taxes just so they could take the land...and mineral rights away...from those whom could not pay...no hard currency to pay them...go figure.
also was it Lenin who said Taxes and Inflation were the means to subjugate the masses?
It was one of those commy idiots...anyway think about it some more :)

Bigot is so underrated
Why stop at bigot, when there are so many other terms like racist, KKK member, honkey, redneck, etc? But, let's face facts, Barrack is about as black as Tiger Woods. He's a mulato who is hoodwinking the blacks in this country who did suffer under slavery, Jim Crow, and now affirmative action, into thinking he is one of them. Still, we should give him a chance NO?

WHen 80% of blacks vote for Obama because he is "black", how is that also not bigoted?

Ron
"So you are saying that your personal freedoms are being taken away from you because you pay taxes? What makes you think all your taxes go to people who did not earn it? You make it sound like you are getting a knock on the door at 3am, sheesh."

The tax collector might as well knock on my door at 3:00 AM. What do you call it when the IRS audits you twice in three years. That happened to me. They found nothing either time and suggested that they will try again. Is that freedom to you?

the flash...And Ron RoTF
Flash...So I was right...

Ron ROTF...what do you care I am policing my own! :)

Obama
Yes, I am a bigot. Let me ask everyone this. Back in 2004, when Obama was an unknown, never ran or held public office, was selected to be the keynote speaker at the Democrat convention. Do you think his skin color might have something to with it? Just asking.

Progressive Ron
"What makes you think all your taxes go to people who did not earn it?"

Where did I say ALL my taxes go to people who didn't earn it? I know that a substantial portion of the population, black and white, get welfare checks, food stamps, etc. Where do you supposed the money comes from? As I said, money doesn't grow on trees. I pay over 40% of my income in taxes. I am supporting these losers. And, if Obama or Hillry gets their way on socialized medicine, I will pay 50% in taxes.

Yea, I remember...
That was the talking point when Larry Craig was arrested for soliciting a homosexual act, all the right could say was barney frank is still there and we throw our own guys out. Last I looked Craig was still there.

Ron ROTFLMAO
would you do me the courtesy of using my whole signature, you gave me a hassle to have one, now I do, so please use it, thank you
Ron writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 5:43 PM
the flash...And Ron RoTF
Ron ROTF...what do you care I am policing my own! :)

Paranoia
>What do you call it when the IRS audits you twice in three years. That happened to me.<

I call it red flags, which is directly tied to your return, not any IRS conspiracy to get you. Any competent tax preparer could probably tell you what's sending up those flags.

You said it right here
I am sure you will now parse this.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Gambler5112 writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 5:18 PM
"Talking out both sides of your mouth. Personal freedom is taken away when wealth is forcibly taken by the government and redistributed to other people who did not earn it."

Liberal Ron ROTFLMAO ..ok..
Then I leave it to you to defend or correct the FLASH...
I may be strtching here but I am thinking that you do not pis* in your Kitchen sink :)

Gambler5112
I think Obama served in the Illinois legislature, the usually stepping stone for higher office.

Ron ROTFLMAO

So Ron, hows the policing...
going? Its funny but sad, all the right wants to do is exert authoritarian control over everybody. Its reflexive as they always deny that that is their intent.

Ron ROTFLMAO

"Ron ROTF...what do you care I am policing my own! :)"

More about Obama
I have a theory about the candidacy of Obama. The Democrat Party had all along figure Hillary would be the nominee. They had no doubt. It was her turn, as they say. With such a concrete nominee as Hillary, what better time for the party to play its "inclusion" card. After Rice and Powell, the Dems were losing their label as the inclusive party. Obama was the right color. They could kill two birds with one stone, i.e. get some inclusion points and at the same time get their favorite Hillary nominated. What they never anticipated was Obama overshadowing Hillary. I believe Hillary will eventually win the nomination, and the party will put Obama back in his place, the Democrat plantation. Next time, the party will be a little more careful in making their token selection, like picking a black man who is not as charismatic as Obama.

Liberal Ron ROTFLMAO
Yes maybe you are right...
when one of MY conservative friends goes too far...I try to bring them back..
NOT something you LIBS ever do...
maybe I offended you with my post to the FLASH...
I guess you too PI** in your kitchen sink! :)

No but,
those are the people you want in your party so badly? You can have them.

Ron ROTFLMAO

Ron writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 6:16 PM
Liberal Ron ROTFLMAO
Yes maybe you are right...
when one of MY conservative friends goes too far...I try to bring them back..
NOT something you LIBS ever do...
maybe I offended you with my post to the FLASH...
I guess you too PI** in your kitchen sink! :)

RonROTFLMAO...lol
liberal = champions of censorship. That is "authoritarian control".

Ron writes: Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 6:12 PM
So Ron, hows the policing...
going? Its funny but sad, all the right wants to do is exert authoritarian control over everybody. Its reflexive as they always deny that that is their intent.

Ron ROTFLMAO

"Ron ROTF...what do you care I am policing my own! :)"

Liberal Ron ROTFLMAO..I had
higher hopes for you..but anyway..I'll take a large fries and a coke with my big mac thank you :)

Defeat Obama
I dare say Hillary is preferable to Obama. His campaign is built on rhetoric, no substance. Jimmy Carter II, I'm telling you.

HermieMO writes:
Wednesday, February, 06, 2008 10:35 AM
"...It is our duty to hold the light to any who would lead our great nation. Our children and their children deserve an America that forever stands as "One Nation, Under God, Indivisible, With Liberty And Justice For All". Obama, the Soros socialists and the pathetic liberals in our country will do everything they can to change all that. We must expose them for who they are.

Join me in supporting whoever is nominated by the GOP. That person still believes in the foundation of America."

+++++++++

Count me in - and be sure to VOTE FOR REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN & WOMEN! We MUST regain the majority in Congress to prevent any further deterioration of our country.

From the first debate I watched, I said I'd be satisfied if any one of the candidates was the final choice - and that was when Tancredo and Hunter and Thompson (my choice) were still in the running. ANY Republican would be better than either of the two Democrat candidates!!!!

And could someone
please tell me what we did to the Greeks that Soros and Kos hate us so much????

Obama
Thanks for reminding me. I am so disappointeted in McCain and hate Hillary (we need New faces) I said yesterday I would vote for Obama over McCain but whe 2 far left (craxy) organizations support Obama that says it all. Too bad cause I like the guy. Where is Romney? He is the only anti amnesty canddate. Are people that stupid?

David Lewis

for you compassionate liberals
You libs think it is a good idea to steal one half of my income and give it to someone who is not doing ANYTHING! How does that help them or me. Tell me you are a lib and I know two things. You want my guns and my money. Government is other people telling ME what to do. The government who robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul! Libs are only tolerant of those who AGREE with THEM! Ted Nugent for President.

Typical political hypocrisy
From the article:

"In just a few years, the members of MoveOn have once again demonstrated that real change comes not from the top-down but from the bottom-up," he declared in a statement.

I'm sorry, billionaire contributors like Linda Pritzker and George Soros represent bottom-up change? Who knew?
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