Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, December 05, 2007
Bob  Burney :: Townhall.com Columnist
Christianity and Islam: How Common is the Ground?
by Bob Burney
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



As this column goes to press, hundreds of presumably Muslim protestors in Sudan are shouting for the execution of a British school teacher. Her offense? Insulting Islam because her class of 7-year-olds named a teddy bear Muhammed. According to the New York Times report:

The protesters, some carrying swords, screamed, β€œShame, shame on the U.K.!” and β€œKill her, kill her by firing squad.” They were calling for the death of Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced on Thursday to 15 days in jail. Under Sudanese law, she could have spent 6 months behind bars and received 40 lashes.

It’s events like thisβ€”and similar ones around the globeβ€”that add to my skepticism about the value of a recent exchange pleading for peace between Muslim and Christian leaders.

Last September, 138 of the world’s most prominent Muslim theologians, scholars and leaders sent an β€œopen letter” addressed to Christians worldwide. The document titled, β€œA Common Word Between Us And You” is an extraordinary communication from the Muslim world. In it the Muslim leaders plead with Christians to recognize in two of the world’s great monotheistic religions their essential β€œcommon ground” namely, love to God and neighbor. Only by recognizing this common ground, the letter submits, will Muslims and Christians learn to live in peace. (Of course, by the very existence of this letter, these Muslim leaders are assuming Christians are not at peace with Islam.)

Ecumenicists around the world have undoubtedly leapt for joy at the offering of this β€œolive branch” to Christianity from Islam. As expected, there were quick and positive responses from the Vatican, the Archbishop of Canterbury and several mainline American denominations.

In response to the β€œCommon Word” document, Yale Divinity School drafted its own β€œopen letter” to Muslims on behalf of Christians everywhere. (While most of the signatories of the Yale letter are a β€œwho ’s who” of today’s theological left, there are a number of evangelicals on board.) The letter titled, β€œLoving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to β€˜A Common Word Between Us and You,’” heaps praise on the representative Muslim scholars for their efforts to bring about peace among Muslims and Christians. In addition, the letter agrees that the essential β€œcommon ground” between Islam and Christianity is love to God and neighbor. A closer analysis of both documents, however, should give Christians pause.

The Yale-drafted response begins by begging for forgiveness from the Muslim community for the evils of the Crusades and the β€œexcesses of the war on terror.” Can someone explain why American Christians are responsible for the Crusades? And as far as the β€œexcesses of the war on terror”—when did the Christian world get together and vote to kill a bunch of Muslims in the name of the war on terror? (It is naΓ―ve at best to think that a group of Christians β€œadmitting” that the war on terror has been at all motivated by hatred toward Muslims will somehow help pacify the hard-liners within Islam.)

This blatant political statement is followed by paragraph after paragraph of ecumenical jargon about β€œour common ground,” β€œyour courageous letter” and β€œour common good.” Most concerning, however, is the following theologically unsound statement:

It is therefore no exaggeration to say, as you have in β€œA Common Word Between Us and You,” that β€œthe future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians” … The future of the world depends on our ability as Christians and Muslims to live together in peace. If we fail to make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony you correctly remind us that β€œour eternal souls” are at stake as well.

The future of the world and our eternal souls depends not on interfaith dialogue, but on the sovereign plan of God (cf. Psalm 115:3, Isaiah 46:8-11; Ephesians 1:11). Our confidence is not in our ecumenical efforts, but in the finished work of Christ.

In addition, while the Muslim document is filled with quotations from the Qur’an proudly proclaiming that their god is the one, true god and indirectly attacking the deity of Jesus Christ, the Yale document uses almost no Scripture and omits a clear proclamation of the deity of Christ.

Finally, in the light of recent global events, it seems reasonable to question whether or not the heart of Islam really is love to god and neighbor in the same sense that Christianity teaches love to God and neighbor. True, the Muslim document does say that β€œMuslims, Christians and Jews should be free to each follow what God commanded them” and that justice and freedom of religion are a β€œcrucial part” of love to neighbor. However, whether or not this sentiment is pervasive in the global Muslim community is vigorously debated today.

No true Christian desires conflict between Christians and Muslims. A Christian who follows the directives of the Bible will love Muslims and respect themβ€”and seek to tell them about the saving love of God in Christ. They will not, however, compromise the truth of Scripture to start a dialogue, for to do so would not demonstrate love to God or love to our Muslim neighbors.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Bob Burney is Salem Communications’ award-winning host of Bob Burney Live, heard weekday afternoons on WRFD-AM 880 in Columbus, Ohio.

Be the first to read Bob Burney’s column.
Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.
Sign up today
just, you are beyond ignorant
justpaul writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 11:46 AM
Here We Go Again
Great. Just what the world needed. Yet another dimwit Christian whining about other dimwit Christians who have failed to cite his preferred biblical passages as fact to refute the Muslims use of their own scriptures as fact.

Has it occurred to you, Mr. Burney, that citing psalms to those who do not profess to believe in the truth of the Bible is beyond stupid? It is potentially an insult to these people,
_____________________________________________

just, what is beyond ignorant is your saying that Burney is citing psalms to mohammedans: HE WAS CITING PSALMS TO THE READERS. And, I hope the mohammedans do get insulted by what Burney and the other anti-islamacists say about islam: It is dangerous and there is only one way to handle them, and that is to eliminate them, at least from the US.

scout
JimmyJones. The only mistake I made was in responding to any of your tripe to begin with, will not happen again.

I'm deeply saddened....!

But you see here again, scout, there are a number of inaccuracies which I feel obliged - my Christian duty and such - to bring to your attention.

First, my name isnt "JimmyJones".
Second, when you say "the ONLY mistake" it is as if you merely made one. Almost every SINGLE thing you have posted here... is a "mistake." As I have pointed out in my previous responses to you.

Third, "tripe" is a matter of "opinion." Not a matter of "fact." You are quite entitled to that opinion, though I suggest - respectfully of course! - that it isnt based on Christian love!

You may recall I closed my previous posts to you with a little advice. I suggested you refrain from posting late at night when you are upset. I also suggested that IF you had a conscience, you would regret it later. I mean, calling someone you have never even MET names like "sleezeball" and stuff is hardly Christian behavior.

Well, it seems you are sadly lacking in the conscience area too. I suggest that you acquire one, and then go see a good Christian minister about becoming a Christian. A conscience is a kind of precondition... if you like.

Also, though of course I'm not in the least bit surprised given your obvious lack of character - what happened to:

"Want more, just let me know"????
And what about my "medicine"????

You know - your previous bluster? Oh yes. That of course is what it was. Empty bluster.
Heh. Who's "whining" now? And not even cutely - "like a girl" - but like a cry-baby.

Only if you are a rapper
.

Rich D.
Sorry, hit the wrong key. The sun went down and I should turn on the lights.

Ricj D.
"No, the Law was given for three reasons...."

Yes, aware of that. I'm not arguing Christians adopted Judaism lock, stock and barrel, but depended on, in the sense of borrowed from, which you have corroborated.

"Jesus came and reduced the number to two...."

Which are the two in Romans 13:9 "For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"It is one story."

To Christians, yes, to Jews, two.


Merry Christmas! Ho ho ho (or is that politically incorrect? the ho?)

One glorious story! II
We are not concerned with culture "borrowing", but our relationship to God. No other faith has had a continuing personal relationship with its "god". When the Children of Israel borrowed, they suffered mightily.

Jeremiah 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Jeremiah 33:14 'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the good word [read Gospel] which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Ezekiel 37:26 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.

Hebrews 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM"

There are no more temple sacrifices because there is no more Temple - the sanctuary is now within us ("in their midst") in our hearts and minds.

Merry Christmas to all!

One glorious story! I
lonestarblues writes: Thursday, December, 06, 2007 9:11 PM

LSB: You are, of course, free to believe that, but you contradict yourself:

Verb: "He was the fulfillment of the Jewish Law."

LSB: So Christianity depends on Jewish Law, the NT on the OT. And Judaism borrowed from other cultures.

No, the Law was given for three reasons: That we know what right and wrong are, that we know when we are breaking the law, and to maintain an ordered society. The original Law was ten, and Moses added 603 more. The Pharisees added many legalisms to avoid getting close to breaking the Law to the point that the average Jew was unable to keep all of them. This kept the sacrificial system going, but did not result in any lasting redemption. To see this, read what the temple sacrifices were for. Jesus came and reduced the number to two, and fulfilled (completed) the law by being the perfect and final redeeming sacrifice (the unspotted lamb). All prior sacrifices were archetypes pointing toward what the prophets had been saying all along to deaf ears. It is one story.

There will never be
Any reconciliation with islam and truth, justice, faith or righteousness.

islam is based in the lies of a false prophet and an Anti-Christ.

The entire book is Anti-Christ and mohammed was devil possessed.

Inspired of God Himself are these Words.

1Jo 2:22 - t
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And here is what the Anti_Christ mohammed preached.

Qur'an:
[ 112:1-4] Proclaim, He is the One and only GOD. The Absolute GOD. Never did He beget.

"The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle . . . God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!" (4:171)

"Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack..." (19:88)

"They say: 'God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!' " (19:29-)

------
JimmyJones
The only mistake I made was in responding to any of your tripe to begin with, will not happen again.

The shame of islam
Soon people will tire of the childish antics of muslims and realize one startling fact. MUSLIM'S ARE NOT LIKE ALL OTHER PEOPLE. To be muslim means that you must leave morals behind. Born of a pedophile, commanded to lie, cheat steal, murder, rape, commit pedophilia all in the name of this prophet would destroy any persons soul. I am sorry to say the truth after living in a muslim country. They are sick in ways we cannot even begin to understand. They can have sex with children. Sex with animals is OK. Murder??OK. Pray for muslims everywhere to repent. Read the koran yourself so they cannot lie to you. Then pray that you never meet one.

Verbivore
Hi, why so angry?

"Christianity did not BORROW from Judaism."

You are, of course, free to believe that, but you contradict yourself:

"He was the fulfillment of the Jewish Law."

So Christianity depends on Jewish Law, the NT on the OT. And Judaism borrowed from other cultures.

Interesting
that what every decent religion rejects (lust, drunkeness, lasciviousness, infidelity) is a heavenly reward for muslims.

There is NO common ground.

Christ: "Love your enemy"
muhammed: "Submit, pay the tax, or die"

nuff said

scout
scout: "and whine like an emotionally unstable little girl"

I dont know what it is you have about "little girls." You are beginning to creep me out though. Little girls are CUTE. I most certainly am NOT.

scout: "when you get slammed back with your own sorry attitude, punk."

Actually, I suspect your "attitude" and mine are at complete VARIANCE. So this comment is yet anOTHER untruth. I dont want to say the word "lie" but there is no way round it.

scout: "I am done taking crap from idiots like you. Want more, just let me know"

More what? I COULD do with some Christian love... though I doubt I would find much of that in your direction. Other than that, I cant think of much else I want. But I will let you know though. If I think of anything.

scout: "You turned it into personal attacks bonehead."

Actually... You have lied a number of times in your rant against me. And this is another one. The FACT is that the FIRST reference EITHER of us made to the other came from YOU.

You quoted me to criticise what I said. I defended the point. And your criticisms were "idiotic." And people who write idiotic things are open to be charge of being ACTUAL idiots. Nothing personal. Just descriptive. Nothing like the words you directed towards me. But that's ok.

Finally. A little bit of advice. Dont post late at night when you are upset. You always - if you have a conscience - regret it in the morning.

scout
scout: "What you want is.."

How would YOU know what I "want" or dont want? More prideful delusions of course... Claiming to know what you cannot possibly know.

scout: "the christian of your own creation,"

And of course... completely WRONG! I dont want this at ALL! Heh. Just when I was thinking I might learn what I want... from YOU!! I dont even know what I want mySELF!! But I will let you in on a secret. I would LOVE to meet a REAL Christian some day. The world is in extreme short supply at the mo.

scout: "the one who takes your smart aze and suffers what ever insult you want to dish out,"

What "insults"? Slimeball? sleezeball? Punk? sleezebag? bonehead?

OOPS. Confused again. Their YOURS!! By the way, arent "slimeball" and "sleezeball" sort of the same thing?

svirk...I only wish....
100 million (est) Followers of the Koran DID NOT also disagree with you!

aurorawatcher writes:
> The Koran gives its adherents the right to
> kill anyone who does not believe in Allah.

That is exactly the sort of ignorant Islamophobic nonsense too many townhall.com posters are nodding their heads up and down to. What is the matter with people when they resort to teaching each other outright lies on the right-wing "Apocolyptic Blogosphere"? Are humans so easy to brain wash and fill with hate?

The Quran preaches exactly the opposite of aurorawatcher's claim.

"It is the truth from your Lord; therefore let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve." [Quran 18:29]

"Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth for all mankind; so whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul and whoever errs, he errs only to its detriment; and you are not a custodian over them." [Quran 39:41]

"And if your Lord had enforced His Will, surely, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Will you then force men to become believers?" [Quran 10:99]

Man must have freedom of conscience and be free to believe as he wishes.

Peace,
Saqib Virk



scout
scout: "but then turn right around and use the Bible to take cheap shots as if you all of a sudden believe the book."

I didnt take a SINGLE "cheap shot" as you call it. Merely made some observations... rather obvious ones... regarding the disjunction betweeen what you CLAIM to believe and PRETEND to be... and how you ACT. Your attitude towards Sophie was nothing short of disgraceful. I note you are rather free with the word "hypocrite" in her direction too... I think you have unresolved "issues" in this area. Projecting or something??

scout: "Talk about a phony, do not start something you cannot handle, understand?"

Something I "cannot handle"?? Like what? You? LOL! Delusions of grandeur... Yes. I suspected "pride" alright. The worst sin of all. This is why you are SO angry and unable to take correction. But it is something you can work on. God "hasnt finished with you yet"... as the saying goes. At least I HOPE He hasnt!!

Willie writes:
> Jesus died on the cross for the sins of
> mankind,

So, according to Christian myth, God created man with the capacity to sin and knowing full well that man would sin. Then when man sinned God took at as a personal affront and one that could never be forgiven. Now God would have to burn everyone in hell forever. What a conundrum. Whatever would God choose to do? Solution: He would place himself in the womb of a woman and then be born on earth as His own Son. Then God Almighty, after having his diapers changed, would walk around for 30 or so years, deliver a few sermons and then commit suicide. Those who accept this suicide/sacrifice enter God's good graces.

Did I get it right and if so, how anyone can accept any of this blasphemous belief?

Peace
S Virk



scout
scout: "Listen up sleezeball, you came to start an argument with me,"

Would you use a word like "sleezeball" in Church? I wouldnt. Just sayin'... again!

scout: "and now whine like the little girl you are when I give you what you looked for."

What do you have against little girls? I would certainly NEVER compare YOU to one! And just 'cos truthseeker and Hilary are FAR more "man than I" doesnt MAKE me the SLIGHTEST bit feminine! Heh.

By the way, the "whine" is the sound you hear... from your own keyboard. You are confused. Nothing new.

scout: "Quit your whining sadsack, and just take your medicine."

"sadsack"?? Would you use that expression in Church? I wouldnt... but I think you should be beginning to get that idea now.... What "medicine" do you have in mind?

scout: "You are a great example of the hypocrites all over the internet."

On what do you base THIS particularly "Christian" observation? This is the second time you have FALSELY accused me of "hypocrisy." Personally, I dont see myself as an example of ANYthing in particular. "Great" or otherwise.

scout: "You are not a Christian,"

How do YOU know whether I am or not?

scout: "do not believe the Bible"

How do YOU know whether I do or not?

scout
scout: "Happy to see I made you mad"

Actually, you didnt. But IF you had done so, I dont see how - as a "Christian" of course - it should make you "happy."

scout: "You hypocrite."

On what do you base this particularly "Christian" form of address?

scout: "I done it intentionally due to your slimeball attitude at me."

You mean you DID it intentionally?? Doesnt that make it a sin? You know. To deliberately SET OUT to do something bad to someone else? And the fact that you didnt succeed doesnt lessen the sin. OOPS. By the way, would you use a word like "slimeball" in Church? I wouldnt. Just sayin'...

touj
Islam believes the Koran is their inerrant word from Allah and Christians believe the Bible is the inerrant word from God. Why is that a problem? It isn't. It's about the only thing Islam shares with Christianity and as the two books do not teach similar things or direct their adherents in similar ways, it shouldn't be a problem for you either. I'm suggesting that you stop equating the two because the two are not similar.

The Koran gives its adherents the right to kill anyone who does not believe in Allah. The New Testament does not do the same. You can refer to Willie's quote of my earlier post because it's just two comments up. That's what evangelical Christians believe about non-believers in a nutshell. So why do you keep equating evangelicals with Muslim extremists?

Re: But What is Reality?
"Perception is reality. While he shrugs off these actions, the Muslim Arab World lives by it."

Who do suppose occupied the lands of North Africa, Eastern Europe up to Austria and Western Europe up to France, and Central and Eastern Asia through Mongolia and the Indian Sub-continent, prior their conquest and capture by the Caliphate in the 7th and 8th Centuries and Timur Lenk in the 14 and 15th Centuries?

While the Roman Empire battled invasion of the barbaric pagan hordes from the North and East, the followers of Mohammed laid waste to the Christian formerly Roman outposts in Palestine, Egypt and the rest of North Africa and the Mediterranean and Asia Minor.

aurorawatcher at 5:23pm

Jesus Vs Allah
This was the best input I have seen on this thread today!

I think that it summarizes exactly what the following of Jesus Christ is all about. And it is done without any malicious word towards anyone...especially those that want to bash followers of Christ...just because they are followers of Christ.


"Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind, even those who choose not to believe in Him or obey Him. Although this choice keeps some outside the doors of heaven, the invitation to accept Jesus' ransom is always open to everyone. Christians are called to tell other people about Jesus, but nowhere in the Bible are we told to convert anyone by force or coersion. Christianity is a voluntary entrance into a relationship with Jesus Christ. As death prevents someone from coming to Jesus, death of a non-believer is something to be mourned, therefore, killing people in an attempt to force conversion is not a Biblically-based doctrine."

That, my friends, is what it is all about. Thanks Aurorawatcher.

For Rich D
I actually looked at (Marmaduke) Pickthall's translation of Koran much prior to becoming a Christian (actually, at the time I had no interest in doing so) and found it to have more contradictions than Villi-puthur's version of Mahabharat; a student taking a passage from that work, translating it to English and handing it in as story-essay (for even grade-9 English/"Language Arts" class) would be very lucky to get a D-.

lonestar
Regarding Christianity and Judaism. you say,of Christianity, "the borrowing from others..."

You still don't get it. Christianity did not BORROW from Judaism. Christianity, or rather, Jesus the Christ, is what all the centuries of judaism led up to. He was the fulfillment of the Jewish Law.

The New Testament builds on the old. It doesn't borrow. It is one continuous story.

One doctored manuscript
full of contradictions, variations, errors, misstatements of Biblical fact, no mention of Jesus by his name, fables from the Talmud, such a fraud proposed to be the perfect word of allah is used to abase women and to kill.

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/quran.htm#F1

Oh, yes, we have common ground - we are buried in it, but after that...

Re: The Big Difference
"HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM IS TOTALLY BOGUS"

Christ's tomb is empty. Mohammed's tomb is still occupied.

Re: The Great Christian Heresy of Islam
According to Hilaire Belloc in his 1936 study of Christian heresies entitled "The Great Heresies", Mohammed, an illiterate pagan bedouin camel driver corrupted Roman and Eastern Catholicism in forming his Moslem religion. Apparently learning Christianity from contact with Christians in his vocation with trade caravans, Mohammed created a simplistic caricature of the Christian religion, retaining the concept of one omnipotent God, heaven, hell, and good and evil, while rejecting the Trinity, and the Incarnation and Divinity of Jesus, the Christ. In this, the Islamic heresy is similar to the earlier Arian heresy.

Like many of the Christian heresies of the later Reformation, Mohammed, did away with most of the Church's structure and all of its Sacriments. Like Calvin, Mohammed's hersy was also strong on fate and predestination. Islam also took from the Jews many of the Old Testament's Dietary Laws and Customs.

Finally, in order to obtain financial support for his cause from the merchants of Mecca, a pagan pilgrimage site involving worship of the "Black Stone" going back Centuries before Mohammed, Islam retained as one of its 5 Pillars, the requisite pilgrimage to Mecca and the site of the Ka`abah Stone. To this day Mecca, during "Haj", the annual Islamic pilgrimage period, remains one of the World's largest bazaars.

How very sweet of you
Ron
------

Ron writes: 11:01 PM
Truthseeker's seeking is done...To soon
And seeks not to win over...by giving no room
only vanity shown and knowledge misspent
be NOT sure of where in the end you'll be sent! :)
--------
Truthseeker uses plain words that leave no need for questions in telling others how he sees them.

Plainly he says they are children of hell, and you smugly chide him for that and just use subtile speech to tell him exactly what he is saying to others, but with cunning words.

And take the side of the anti_Christs against him using the very same attitude you think he will be/could be in hell over.

So lets see if I got this right.
Its likely his salvation is in jeopardy cause he tells the anti-Christs they are lost is from evil.
But when you do that to him its a-ok and kosher.

I find that extremely hypocritical myself

svpallava
"You made a serious mistake with the assumption that Islam derives from Judaism. In reality, it derives from a syncretisation of:
"(1) original tribal religions of Arabia
"(2) contact with Zoroastrians (and chain-contact this way with Hinduism)
"(3) late-end contact with some non-practicing Jews (in Medina)"

OK, thanks for correction. I realize I was overgeneralizing. These details are interesting.

"Christianity, on the other hand, DOES derive from Judaism--expanded to reach Gentiles...."

Yes, and therein is its syncretisation, the borrowing from others, the many sun gods of that day, and the Greek later on.

"To say that Allah is the same as Yahweh..."

I didn't say that. To say the Chritian God is Yahweh is just as wrong.

"So (as I stated twice before), there is NO common ground between Christianity and Islam."

That, too, is an overgeneralization. Both do have roots in Judaism, as well as other beliefs, and hardly original in thought, other than, as I pointed out, Christianity being a personal religion. Both, depending on who in particular you talk to, reject much of science.

Re: Conversion Versus Extermination
"Fundamentalist Christians have more in common with fundamentalist muslims than either group has with it's more mainstream counterparts."

Actually, a open-minded reading of history would suggest that fundamentalist atheists or pagans and fundamentalism Moslems have more in common when comes to dealing with non-believers than any of them has in common with fundamentalist Christians.

In the 20th Century atheistic Communists Mao Zedong and Iosif Stalin accumulated 60 million non-believers killed between them. In the 13th Century Pagan Mogul Genghis Khan accummulated 40 non-believers killed. And in the 14-15th the Moslem Timur Lenk accumulated 17 million non-believers killed.

continues from previous post
"...Surely therein is a Sign for you, if you are believers. 'And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden unto you, and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear God and obey me; 'Surely, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship him - this is the right path.'

And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, 'Who will be my helpers in the cause of God?' The disciples answered, 'We are the helpers of God. We have believed in God. And bear thou witness that we are obedient;" [Quran 3:43-52]


svpallava writes:
> So (as I stated twice before), there is NO
> common ground between Christianity and Islam.

[Quran 3:43-52]
"O Mary, be obedient to thy Lord and prostrate thyself and worship the one God with those who worship Him.' This is of the tidings of things unseen which We reveal to thee. And thou was not with them when they cast their arrows, as to which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor was thou with them when they disputed with one another. When the angels said, 'O Mary, God gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honored in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God; 'And he shall speak to the people in the cradle, and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous. She said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me? He said, 'Such is the way of God. He creates what He pleases. When He decrees a thing He says to it 'Be,' and it is; And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of Israel with the Message, 'I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird; then I will breath into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of God; and I will heal the night blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead by the command of God; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses...

continued in next post by me

Re: Reading is Fundamental
"TH seems to have turned into a fundamentalist Christian website, with columists who more interested in sermons than politics or culture."

"I'm off to read a book."

Hopefully it will be a book that accurately describes the how Judeo-Christian beliefs were the foundation of our Nations politics and culture from its inception.

For lonestarblues
You made a serious mistake with the assumption that Islam derives from Judaism. In reality, it derives from a syncretisation of:
(1) original tribal religions of Arabia
(2) contact with Zoroastrians (and chain-contact this way with Hinduism)
(3) late-end contact with some non-practicing Jews (in Medina)

Even scripture shows this, in Gen 21:21, which describes Ismail: "And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT". Although this is not much-expanded-upon, later examples (Esau, Solomon, Ahab, Jehoram of Judah, ...) all show evidence that the choice of a spouse greatly impacted religious/spiritual choices.

Christianity, on the other hand, DOES derive from Judaism--expanded to reach Gentiles, which are now the majority of Christians (how many references to OT do you find in NT--simple answer is "oodles").

To say that Allah is the same as Yahweh is contradicted by former Muslims (both became Christians) as Peter Iqbal of India, and Ergun Caner of Turkey--I've heard it PERSNONALLY from Iqbal's lips.

http://lefi.org/library/iqbal.htm

So (as I stated twice before), there is NO common ground between Christianity and Islam.

Burney Dosen't Get It..
Burney Writes; "A Christian who follows the directives of the Bible will love Muslims and respect themβ€”and seek to tell them about the saving love of God in Christ".

My interpretation:

We are Christian Americans, therefore we are good. They are Muslims, therefore they are bad. Our Job is to convert the bad people to Christianity so they they too can be good...

The difference in action between Ameican Christians and Muslims is a matter of degrees (albeit sometims large degrees) influenced by cultural needs. But fundementally they think the same.

Burney's Post is completely defensive lacking in any understanding of the Muslim view. Instead of being defensive about our War on terror and the Crusades, he should try to understand the Muslim perspective. WHile Burney seperates American Christians from other Christains (not responsible for crusades)..THe Muslim World groups all Christians together. They make no distinction.

Perception is reality. While he shrugs off these actions, the Muslim Arab World lives by it. Burney's view purely ethno-centric American.

In the end this is not about religion Christanity vs Islam, but politics and historical interpretation. America versus the Middle East. We just hide behind our religion.


let us compare
My God sent his Son to die for me.Allah persuaded a rug merchant to form a hate group.God directs me to love my enemies. Allah demands Muslims to kill theirs.
God tells us everyone must come to him through his word in his time through free will.Allah says kill anyone who disagrees with you.
God has unlimited power and glory. Allah is not powerful enough to deal with his enemies so Muslims must go out and kill them for him.
God promises a heaven so awesome man can not even imagine it's rewards. Allah promises you will be outnumbered 72 to 1 by women you have treated like dirt their whole lives.
God brings inner peace and contentment. Allah makes hatred and poverty a way of life. We worship God and Praise his Son for dying for our sins. They pay lip service to God and worship the man Mohamed.
Did I miss anything?

GOD VERSUS ALLAH (THE ANTI – GOD)
GOD VERSUS ALLAH (THE ANTI – GOD)

ISLAM IS THE TEACHINGS OF THE EVIL MUHAMMAD NOT OF ANY GOD. BEING THE CREATION OF MUHAMMAD, ISLAM IS TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY BOGUS – A SHAM AND A FRAUD.

THE KORAN IS A BOOK OF EVIL – A BOOK FILLED WITH VIOLENCE AND HATE WHICH BLASPHEMES, IS A VERY GREAT SIN AND OBSCENITYAGAINST GOD. IT MAKES A MOCKERY OF EVERYTHING GOD STANDS FOR.

MUSLIM MEN WHO FOLLOW THE EVIL TEACHINGS OF THE KORAN ARE NOT GOING TO ALLAH'S DEPRAVED PARADISE OF BIG EYED, BIG BREASTED VIRGINS BUT WILL LOSE THEIR ETERNAL SOULS AND JOIN MUHAMMAD AND HIS MASTER SATAN IN THE FIRES OF HELL.

By:
Larry Houle
http://www.godofreason.com
intermedusa@yahoo.com

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM IS TOTALLY BOGUS

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM IS A TOTAL SHAM AND FRAUD

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ALLAH NEVER EXISTED

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT MUHAMMAD NEVER RECEIVED ANY REVELATIONS FROM ALLAH

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM WAS CREATED BY MUHAMMAD

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE KORAN IS NOT THE WORD/TEACHINGS OF ALLAH

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE TEACHINGS OF THE KORAN ARE THE TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD NOT ALLAH

HOW DO WE KNOW THAT MUHAMMAD WAS ALLAH (THE ANTI – GOD)

FOR A DETAILED ANALYSIS OF EVIL IN THE NAME OF GOD - go to: http://www.godofreason.com



Happy to see I made you mad
You hypocrite .
I done it intentionally due to your slimeball attitude at me.

---------


JimmyJoe writes: 12:58 AM
TALENT Scout
In the interests of truth, justice and the American way, I think you should drop "talent" from your handle. Now, I really am whacked. Good night. You moronic phony "Christian."
----------
TS:
Listen up sleezeball, you came to start an argument with me, and now whine like the little girl you are when I give you what you looked for.
Quit your whining sadsack, and just take your medicine.

You are a great example of the hypocrites all over the internet.
You are not a Christian, do not believe the Bible but then turn right around and use the Bible to take cheap shots as if you all of a sudden believe the book.
Talk about a phony, do not start something you cannot handle, understand?

What you want is the christian of your own creation, the one who takes your smart aze and suffers what ever insult you want to dish out, and whine like an emotionally unstable little girl when you get slammed back with your own sorry attitude, punk.

I am done taking crap from idiots like you.
Want more, just let me know

You turned it into personal attacks bonehead.

Go join truthseeker
at a prayer meeting. "Where two or three are gathered in my name I am with them"... exCEPT if they happen to be scout and truthseeker.

Scout
In the interests of truth, justice and the American way, I think you should drop "talent" from your handle. Now, I really am whacked. Good night. You moronic phony "Christian."

Scout
NONE of what you just posted matters one WHIT. It is just MORE BS. But you ARE "too stupid to deal with Jimmy". ONE thing you got right.

You are WRONG to refer to me as a "troll" though. As you SHOULD know.

Sophie was referring to her "queen of the universe" reference. Duh. Big deal. Jezz. You really ARE embarrassing.

Also, you completely do NOT understand what "turning the other cheek means". Which makes you an idiot. Or you DO understand and PRETEND not to. Which makes you a fake. I cant stand fakes. Life is too short. Who on EARTH are you trying to fool????

So what is the dang point in posting biblical references to people you insult willy nilly??? Are you completely STOOOOPid????

Just too stupid to deal with Jimmy
I will just say good bye troll.
And Sophie, how about finding the word Metaphor for me in the entire bible.

Not used a single time.
The word Allegory is used, but it is used where it defines exactly what is an allegory.
And Jesus defined exactly what a parable was.
Like I said, you do not know diddly squat about the bible, or early America.

One place the word allegory is used.

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all

scout
"Kids I TAUGHT." Excuse mispelling. Getting very tired. Good night.

By the way, Scout
I like meeting NICE people here too... Like Sophie!!! She's WAYYYYYYYY cuter than you will EVER be!!

You are a total embarrassment to the Conservative cause.

As for your response to Sophie at 12.27am??? A pure illustration of nothing but your OWN ignorance. Of scripture. And what it MEANS.

"Turning the other cheek" means NOT responding in KIND. Whether to the insult or whatever. Not JUST a PHYSICAL slap on the cheek. You really are a dingbat. Jezzzzz.

By the way. I spent the best years of my life teaching Catholic HS. I'm retired. So dont give me any more BS. Never had time for it. Have less time now. But KIDS I thouhgt would put you to shame. You THINK you know - but you know NOTHING.

scout
scout: "Dingbat I will rattle your cage, until I do that, take a long hike off a short pier.
Or go play with your dolls."

Hmm. You will pardon me for shortening your name to "scout." I cant bring myself to put "talent" there.. at ALL.

Second. The very thoughts of your "rattling my cage" indicates your TOTAL disconnect from REALITY. I post for FUN. The more people like you - with your head up your a-- I meet, the more I like it! You, Touj, and truthseeker. THREEEEEEEEE in one night!!!!!!!! LOLLOL!!!

I cant tell which is the more obnoxious though. Probably truthseeker. Followed by YOU. Two "Christians". Hmmmmm. Then Touj. Who is TOTALLY harmless by comparison to BOTH of you!!

Go Get a Bible
Devout Agnostic writes: 11:14 PM
Talent Scout
Go get a dictionary and learn the word metaphor.
-------

And show the word metaphor in this scripture.

Matthew 5:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Slap me just be be nasty or to be a thug and I will knock you out.

I do like Jesus said and watch for thugs and thieves to stop them from spreading their misery around.
And then say Hallelueyah, Glory ain't God Good.

scout
Scout quoting JimmyJoe:
"It shows NOTHING of the kind. Except your OWN ignorance. With "conservatives" like you and truth seeker... I'm beginning to think that "liberals" like Touj and Gestell HAVE a point after all... when they make broad sweeping statements about "conservatives".
------
Scout's response: "Nah, you do not bother to even think. You react like a highly emotional little girl."

Is there ANYbody out there who can see the connection between what I SAID and scouts response??? I cant.
---------

Scout quoting JimmyJoe:
"By the way. Are YOU a "decent" Christian????"
--------
Scout's ressponse:
"All Christians are decent people you silly little girlieman."

Again. Note that Scout's response had NOTHING to do with my QUESTION. Which makes him either a TOTAL FAKE or TOTALLY DUMB.

MOST people are "decent People." I asked you (check above) if you were a "decent" CHRISTIAN!

Either you cant read - which makes you dumb - or you DELIBERATELY distorted my question. Which makes you a complete FAKE.

In addition, the fact that I think Hillary and truthseeker are more "man" than I does NOT qualify me as a "girlyman"!! They are more "man" than MOST men!! Inc YOU!

Scout
Scout: "Just when I take time to respond to such stupid people like you Jimmy."

What IS it with you? Why the UNwarranted personal attack? OOPS. "Christianity" in action!!!!

Scout: "Do not even give it a moments thought that you can teach the bible sonny boy.

And I suppose YOU think YOU are "teaching the bible" to Jon... Heh. Your previous post to Sophie makes you LOOK like a bible teacher who forgot to put on his trousers!! RIDICULOUS!!

Scout: "I take no instruction from fools."

I see no "fool" giving you "instructions."!! I suspect that pride is at the root of your present difficulties though... and remember, scout. That is the worst sin of all. I fear for your very soul.

When I want to hear from you
JimmyJoe writes: 11:53 PM
scout
Imagine posting such high falutin' "Christian" stuff to Jon... while remaining so OBVIOUSLY clueLESS to your own TOTAL LACK of Christian Charity to Sophie. Wow. Talk about total disconnect... from "reality." Jezz.

You wouldnt recognise Christ if you tripped over Him!
-------
ts
Dingbat
I will rattle your cage, until I do that, take a long hike off a short pier.
Or go play with your dolls.

Where do you ding bats come from?
JimmyJoe writes: 11:19 PM

scout
scout to Sophie: "Let me clue you into to something Sophie. Its impossible for anyone to be slapped over the internet, making it moot to "turn the other cheek".
--------

JimmyJoe writes:
Are YOU an idiot too?? "Turning the other cheek" isnt JUST about taking a PHYSICAL blow to the cheek. Sheesh.
-------
ts
Just when I take time to respond to such stupid people like you Jimmy.
Do not even give it a moments thought that you can teach the bible sonny boy.
I take no instruction from fools.

---------


Scout: "Showing once again you do not understand anything from the bible or the real world."


JimmyJoe writes:
It shows NOTHING of the kind. Except your OWN ignorance. With "conservatives" like you and truth seeker... I'm beginning to think that "liberals" like Touj and Gestell HAVE a point after all... when they make broad sweeping statements about "conservatives".
-----

ts:
Nah, you do not bother to even think.
You react like a highly emotional little girl.

----------
JimmyJoe writes:


By the way. Are YOU a "decent" Christian????
--------
ts:
All Christians are decent people you silly little girlieman.


scout
Imagine posting such high falutin' "Christian" stuff to Jon... while remaining so OBVIOUSLY clueLESS to your own TOTAL LACK of Christian Charity to Sophie. Wow. Talk about total disconnect... from "reality." Jezz.

You wouldnt recognise Christ if you tripped over Him!

Let me make a comment here Jon
Jon writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 9:40 PM
Speaking of the Holy Spirit
Washington, Jefferson and Madison, as Presidents, when speaking to Native Americans referred to God as "The Great Spirit" -- the Native American's title for God. Arguably, this is NOT the Biblical God. At least Allah claims to be the God of Abraham. "The Great Spirit" makes no such claims. I once debated someone who thought perhaps these Founders meant "The Holy Spirit," but that doesn't wash, look at how Madison put it:

"It is in your power to be like them. The ground that feeds one lodge by hunting, would feed a great band by the plough & the hoe. The Great Spirit has given you, like your white brethren, good heads to contrive, and strong arms, and active bodies........ "
http://www.wcu.edu/library/cherokeePhoenix/Vol2/no19/pg1.ht m
--------

First thing to be said is there is only One God.
What men know about this ONE God is where the differences come from.
Not from many different Gods.
Just one God.
Who has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ, the PERSON of Jesus Christ, a man.
The Son of David, the Son of Man, the Son of God.

The only person of the Godhead.
God is a Spirit, and He had no person UNTIL the Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
From whom God Himself revealed Himself to this world.
He revealed His Nature in Jesus Christ, and done so to reconcile ALL men to God.

2Co 5:19 -
To wit, that "God" was "IN Christ", reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Now this same God is the God of nature.
The only God the American Indians knew of, and called Him the Great Spirit.
The very same God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Whose VERY LAWS are the Laws of Nature.

All over the world.

To repeat, a Spirit is NOT a person.
The One and ONLY person of the Godhead is Jesus Christ the man.

scout
I note your "silence" on the question. Good. You should REMAIN silent more often. A silent man may be thought wise, whereas when the fool opens his mouth, he is KNOWN to be a fool.

ANY Christian who would describe himSELF as a "decent" Christian is certainly NOT a "decent" one. Paradox. Very likely to be guilty of the greatest sin of all. PRIDE.

But ANY Christian worthy of the name Christian has a FULL knowledge of his/her ONW sinful nature before God and would NEVER describe him/herself as a "decent Christian."

truthseeker describes people she has NEVER met as her "enemies". No. Her GREATEST enemy is her OWN bitterness and anger. And the ONLY REAL "war" we must fight is the war against our OWN false egos. Not rocket science.

Let me make a comment here Jon
Jon writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 9:40 PM
Speaking of the Holy Spirit
Washington, Jefferson and Madison, as Presidents, when speaking to Native Americans referred to God as "The Great Spirit" -- the Native American's title for God. Arguably, this is NOT the Biblical God. At least Allah claims to be the God of Abraham. "The Great Spirit" makes no such claims. I once debated someone who thought perhaps these Founders meant "The Holy Spirit," but that doesn't wash, look at how Madison put it:

"It is in your power to be like them. The ground that feeds one lodge by hunting, would feed a great band by the plough & the hoe. The Great Spirit has given you, like your white brethren, good heads to contrive, and strong arms, and active bodies........ "
http://www.wcu.edu/library/cherokeePhoenix/Vol2/no19/pg1.ht m
--------

First thing to be said is there is only One God.
What men know about this ONE God is where the differences come from.
Not from many different Gods.
Just one God.
Who has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ, the PERSON of Jesus Christ, a man.
The Son of David, the Son of Man, the Son of God.

The only person of the Godhead.
God is a Spirit, and He had no person UNTIL the Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
From whom God Himself revealed Himself to this world.
He revealed His Nature in Jesus Christ, and done so to reconcile ALL men to God.

2Co 5:19 -
To wit, that "God" was "IN Christ", reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Now this same God is the God of nature.
The only God the American Indians knew of, and called Him the Great Spirit.
The very same God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Whose VERY LAWS are the Laws of Nature.

All over the world.

To repeat, a Spirit is NOT a person.
The One and ONLY person of the Godhead is Jesus Christ the man.

Scout
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice...

What is Islam?

For kissing a boy, some stone 13yr old girls to death. Some give her a mere 40 whacks from a bearded man's bedroom whip. Some just let all the townsmen gang rape her, and then send her out of town.

Gays are drawn and quartered. None believers are sometimes beheaded, and then dismembered by joyous school children. Shoplifters lose their body parts to a rusty axe.

And others just pull-the-pin in the neighborhood restaurant, shouting Hee-Haud.

Even after explaining the good points above... I still wonder what Islam "is".





scout
scout to Sophie: "Let me clue you into to something Sophie. Its impossible for anyone to be slapped over the internet, making it moot to "turn the other cheek".

Are YOU an idiot too?? "Turning the other cheek" isnt JUST about taking a PHYSICAL blow to the cheek. Sheesh.

Scout: "Showing once again you do not understand anything from the bible or the real world."

It shows NOTHING of the kind. Except your OWN ignorance. With "conservatives" like you and truth seeker... I'm beginning to think that "liberals" like Touj and Gestell HAVE a point after all... when they make broad sweeping statements about "conservatives".

By the way. Are YOU a "decent" Christian????

Here we have the proof

Sophie does not know what a Christian is, she just "knows" she is queen of the universe. lol
-----------



Devout Agnostic writes: 10:33 PM


And for the decent Christians on this site, rest assured that I know Sanity Seeker is not representative of your religion!

Especially the kind Ron & JimmyJoe!
-----------

JimmyJoe writes: 10:38 PM
Sophie
Appreciate that you THINK I'm a "decent Christian" - but in fact I'm NOT!! And I would loathe for you to think of me in ways that I am not!! I find that NOT being a "decent Christian" frees me up to say things I couldnt say if I WERE a decent Christian!!! LOL! See you around!!
--------
ts
Let me clue you into to something Sophie.
Its impossible for anyone to be slapped over the internet, making it moot to "turn the other cheek".
Showing once again you do not understand anything from the bible or the real world.

Go play "queen of the universe" lol.

truthseeker
Tell me.. do you shave twice a day.. or does once only suffice??? LOLLOL!!

truthseeker
truthseeker: "bet hillary is more of a man then you are"

You are dead RIGHT! And you know something else?? YOU are "more of a man than I am" too!!!!

Ron
Wow... a gifted wordsmith!!

Truth Seeker
truthseeker: "bite me"????

I'm "not man enough"! I'd be afraid - terrified in fact - of catching something!!

Truthseeker's seeking is done...To soon
And seeks not to win over...by giving no room
only vanity shown and knowledge misspent
be NOT sure of where in the end you'll be sent! :)

So do we all
Jon writes: 10:14 PM


Talent Scout. With all of my heart I support liberalizing Islam to be as tolerant of other religions as possible.
------
ts:
This is the point about islam.
That is not possible and follow the koran.
The koran will not tolerate, or brook any dissension, question or reason concerning allah or the man mohammed.
And even men of God in the Bible could ask of God anything that bothered him.
Read Davids questions in the 77th Psalm.
Read the Book of Job.
Its there in plain text, men of God have questions and doubts themselves.
But the koran does not allow for any such real human emotions.


----------
Jon writes:
Islam needs a Paine and a Voltaire.
-----
ts
That is starting with a non sequiter Jon.
Be easier to get them to listen to a sodomite than to an athiest.
No, what they need is to get rid of the koran altogether and free themselves from the bondage of a 7th century thief, murderer and rapist.

bet hillary
is more of a man then you are

jimmie
i know you were left wing scum after reading you posts. you would look good in contrast to ... what nothing comes to mind, oh maybe hillary..

enough
fighting with satan's children on earth for one nite. all of you that i had harsh words with tonite- bite me. ever read posts on your left wing sites. they are ten times worst then anything i said unless your a liberal, then its mainstream talk.

truthseeker
LOL! You really ARE a crackpot!! I thought Sophie looked pretty good beFORE Ron and I showed up!

You know. Bishop Fulton Sheen had a statement that a pleasure to be TRULY enjoyed has to be taken in conjunction to a degree of deprivation. Easter comes AFTER Lent. Christmas comes AFTER Advent and so on. The CONTRAST... so to speak.

But you know what? I think that Sophie looks really REALLY good... in CONTRAST with...... and you may fill in the blank yourself. Use your imagination!! (Ok. Hint. Second person singular!)

Sophie
Appreciate that you THINK I'm a "decent Christian" - but in fact I'm NOT!! And I would loathe for you to think of me in ways that I am not!! I find that NOT being a "decent Christian" frees me up to say things I couldnt say if I WERE a decent Christian!!! LOL! See you around!!

sophia stupid
thats cus ron and jimmie are horses behinds and leftist plants here to make you look good. your scum and they are scum. not one of you 3 are real children of God.

sophia
please, please. i don't want to burn you at the stake. i've never said that. i want to feed you to the alligators.

I feel like
I'm at a geek show.

'Night, everybody.

truthseeker - first opportunity!!
Sweet!! She can wear my pants ANY time!! Heh. Hope you arent "scandalized" by your OWN suggestion!!

As for Sophie being "a bigger threat" than a muslim (terrorist)???? Sheesh!! VERY "truth" seeking statement indeed!! She doesnt somehow strike me as the kind to blow herself up and take a bunch of innocents with her.... But you DO know that, dont you?

LOL! By the way I went "BACK TO" turning the other cheek" AFTER I unloaded on you. Find a SINGLE comment AFTER I said this that WASNT "cheek-turning" and I will give you at least the credit of being able to READ.

And just calling me "dumb" and "brain dead" and stuff doesnt really get you very far.... except to PROVE how very "Christlike" you are... I dont think. Heh.

Touj. writes:
"Too bad
TH seems to have turned into a fundamentalist Christian website, with columists who more interested in sermons than politics or culture."


DUH! In case you might have missed it, most Christians are conservatives and this is a Conservative site. See, didn't I tell you? Willfully ignorant.

ron
bite me

I wouldn't consider
those wimps who drafted that document to be Christians. Those who cannot see the huge differences between Islam and Christianity are willfully ignorant and no amount of argument or reason will change their closed-mindedness.

truthseeker seeks NOT...
... what name would imply
attaks one whose name... which one should ally.
are you blind to sublime?... or not teaching your crime?
Know not virtue of whom in those name thou trys shine?


lonestarblues
My pleasure.

Talent Scout. With all of my heart I support liberalizing Islam to be as tolerant of other religions as possible.

Islam needs a Paine and a Voltaire.

jimmie joe
you call that post turning the other cheek. man you really are dumber than a box of rocks. i've been trying to tell you your a self righteous oaf, with no talent or brains, but instead of listening to your betters you run your mouth and show every one what a hypocitical dunce you are. you and sophia would make a good pair. she has the balls and you have an empty head so she can wear the pants in your family.

ink , meet Rich D.
with reference to Rich D. post which said "The theological gulf is way too wide to bridge. The Koran contains serious inaccuracies about Biblical figures, and is self-contradictory, and was written down in several versions long after the fact. Textual criticism is disallowed. Ishmael was not heir to the covenant, and not the founder of the Arabic tribes.

Muhammed was a false prophet; therefore anything attributed to him is false. Allah is not God, nor another name for God."

That's a long excerpt, but I think I'll just defer - Ink doesn't think your point of view exists.

ID a possible bridge b/t civilizations
2 December 2005
Under God or Under Darwin?
Intelligent Design could be a bridge between civilizations.
by Mustafa Akyol
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol200512020813.asp

Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1 %40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1 %40individual.net

trailers for forthcoming movie "Expelled"
http://expelledthemovie.com/video.php

sophia stupid
i'm in your face , baby. you ain't a christian and don't pretend like you are one. i'm not a useful idiot like jimmie. you are my enemy. and you are a bigger threat to america than the muslims cus you have a vote and can undermine america with your other leftists. jimmie on the other hand is just a bean-brain, with just enough intelligence to make him dangerous to america also.

Stray Thoughts on Topic
Christianity and Islam are both monotheistic and while they derive from Judaism they diverge from that point theologically as much as both do from Judaism. If the great contribution of Judiasm was monotheism, the great contribution of Christianity was a personal God, or relationship with Him, which strayed until revived during the Reformation. Islam is, however, a throw back to social religion, where there is little or no difference between the affairs of church and state. As such it does appear more violent because you cannot separate the two in the Middle East, especially, as you could, debatablely, for example, the Catholic from the Spain in the New World, or as you can now, fortunately, a Christian society in a secular state like our nation. In short, these days, the religious differences are less important than the political milieu in which, in a Hayekian sense, they have evolved as institutions.

Right guys..
Been a pleasure... but I have been here FAR longer than I planned. Cheers. Dont worry though. I'll pop back at the first opportunity!!

Its too bad

Franklin or Jon has no influence with the muslims to allow Christians and Jews into their public square to preach or speak openly and freely.
Maybe some of you could use your energy in Saudi Arabia and get them to do what you think or might think Christians should do.
I do believe Christians who Founded America are much more open than the mohammedans.
Anyone disagree with that?




Jon writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 9:17 PM
Another heresy

Franklin thought it appropriate for Muslims to preach Islam in Christian Churches:

"Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service."

http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/bfongw.htm

How many Christian Churches today would be willing to share their pulpits with Muslim preachers?
(as he fails to read it is not a Church)

Sophie
"Satanic" or otherwise... sweet post! I take issue with ONE thing though!

Sophie:" You even attack those on your own side if they stray a little."

If you are referring to her little outbursts against me - its even worse than that. I didnt even "stray" a teensy weensy little bit. At ALL!! Heh.

truthseeker
Yes. I HAVE the "nerve" to call you "Unchristian." Doesnt require much though. It's pretty obvious.

By the way, I actually TRIED to give you an "out" in my last post, but - dumb as a post - you failed to see it. "Blind guide"!!!!

"All white on the outside but inside full of dead mens bones and ALL kinds of corruption"!!!

I'm sure - as someone who claims to be "Christian" you recognise those words...

By the way, you are no more of a "truthseeker" than the cat. More like an angry old prude.

That's ok. I'm going back to turning the other cheek now again!!

One other thing. I dont "hate" touj. I think she is a silly phony woman. She has NEVER done anything to me to warrant my "hatred." I post here for entertainment!!! She has provided me with LOTS of it!!

But. I DO "hate" her FAKERY. Just as I "hate" yours. You know. "Hating the sin but not the sinner"??? I know you are unable to make that distinction, but dont project your OWN motives falsely on to me.

IF Touj dropped her fakery, she and I could be friends INSTANTLY. IF she can learn from my criticisms of her posts, then I will have done her a GREAT service. Likewise with YOU. (Mind you I'm not holding my breath in either case!!)

truthseeker
I'm glad I "make you laugh"!! More progress!! But of course you miss the WHOLE point as usual. There is NOTHING "hypocritical" about my treatment of Touj and Sophie.

I am NOT attacking ANYone's "political" views. At ALL. I have NO interest. I dont care what YOURS are either. Though we probably vote the same way!

What I AM attacking in Touj is her F_A_K_E_R_Y. Get it? Fakery!!

Sophie isNT a "F_A_K_E." So regardless of her views, she gets a pass. PLUS. I find her highly entertaining. Touj is a complete BORE. How DIFFERENT can they be?? YOU are FAR more like Touj than Sophie is.

Now. How many MORE reasons do you need?

On top of which. When "strong words" ARE required, Christ Himself had NO hesitation in using them. He used them on the PHONY and the FAKE. But NEVER on the LOST or the misguided.

inkling_revival & jon
Thanks, both, for the informative read and insightful debate. Having read both of you before, it is not surprising. I could join the debate in that spirit, disagreeing on a few minor points, but not with matching depth of knowledge.

inkling, you are right about some on both sides.

Feline Devout Agnostic
Would you allow me ...to imagine your Purrrrr!

Ah, not a church Jon
It was a public building, just like we have today where anyone can speak in a town meeting.
Just public speaking back then was mostly about religion.
You just seem to not be able to make such distinctions.

Learn the difference in what the word "church" means and a public building.
It will greatly aide your understanding of historical America.

-----

Jon writes: 9:17 PM
Another heresy
Franklin though it appropriate for Muslims to preach Islam in Christian Churches:

---------


And it being found inconvenient to assemble in the open air, subject to its inclemencies, the building of a house to meet in was no sooner propos'd, and persons appointed to receive contributions, but sufficient sums were soon receiv'd to procure the ground and erect the building, which was one hundred feet long and seventy broad, about the size of Westminster Hall; and the work was carried on with such spirit as to be finished in a much shorter time than could have been expected. Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/bfongw.htm
-------

Note this part


Both house and ground were vested in trustees,(not a Pastor) expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general

Madison cont.
The problem is the Holy Spirit is not God the Father these are two distinct persons in the Godhead. But stating, as Madison did, "The Great Spirit who is the father of us all, approves them," if speaking of "The Holy Spirit" would utterly confuse the different persons in the Godhead by conflating them. No, Madison was stating that the Native American's "Great Spirit" is the same God he worshipped -- which suggests he believed most or all religions worshipped the same God, or that God goes by different names to different folks -- "Allah" to the Muslims, "Jehovah" to the Jews, the "Father" to the Christians, the "Great Spirit" to the Native Americans, etc. etc.

Speaking of the Holy Spirit
Washington, Jefferson and Madison, as Presidents, when speaking to Native Americans referred to God as "The Great Spirit" -- the Native American's title for God. Arguably, this is NOT the Biblical God. At least Allah claims to be the God of Abraham. "The Great Spirit" makes no such claims. I once debated someone who thought perhaps these Founders meant "The Holy Spirit," but that doesn't wash, look at how Madison put it:

"It is in your power to be like them. The ground that feeds one lodge by hunting, would feed a great band by the plough & the hoe. The Great Spirit has given you, like your white brethren, good heads to contrive, and strong arms, and active bodies. Use them like your white brethren of the eighteen fires, and like them, your little sparks will grow into great fires. You will be well fed, dwell in good houses, and enjoy the happiness for which you, like them, were created. These are the words of your father to his red children. The Great Spirit who is the father of us all, approves them. Let them pass through the ear in to the heart. Carry them home to your people; and as long as you remember this visit to your father of the eighteen fires, remember these are his last and best words to you!"

http://www.wcu.edu/library/cherokeePhoenix/Vol2/no19/pg1.ht m

jimmiejoe
you make me laugh. weather you think it was unwarranted or not is irrelevant to me. i will talk to her any way i deem necessary. i don't need to convince you otherwise because i was not talking to you nor do i want your opinion on anything.... you don't get to decide whats warranted or unwarranted. and your a hypocrite because sophia espouses the same political views as touj and i've seen you love one and hate the other. i've read how you talk to touj. and you have the nerve to call me unchristian.

No common ground
Touj. writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 2:44 PM

"Nick said, "There is no common ground between Islam and Christianity"

Well, they believe in the same Jewish Old Testament God for starters."

Not really. The theological gulf is way too wide to bridge. The Koran contains serious inaccuracies about Biblical figures, and is self-contradictory, and was written down in several versions long after the fact. Textual criticism is disallowed. Ishmael was not heir to the covenant, and not the founder of the Arabic tribes.

Muhammed was a false prophet; therefore anything attributed to him is false. Allah is not God, nor another name for God.

truthseeker
Your attack on Sophie - reGARDLESS of any past history of exchanges between you - was completely UNwarranted.

I didnt set OUT to treat you with less than proper respect. But I couldnt let that go. Simple as that.

I know you feel justified in what you wrote. But I dont believe you were. Nor can you convince me otherwise. And yes, I DO like Sophie. I like when "liberals" post here because I dont like having all of us sit around here all day long agREEING on everything.

truthseeker, I have nothing against you. It is very easy on this forum to write more harshly in the heat of the moment than we might wish to have done in hindsight.

I go back further
And as I am a purist in reading Primary Sources of history so hold the same method in the Bible and use it only to understand what the words mean.
The Bible explains everything from its own pages.
All that came after used it themselves for their comments.
Which is fine, but to really understand the scripture, I have taken the advice of Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul.
To read it and study it for myself.
--------------

inkling_revival writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 8:49 PM
Holy Spirit as Person (talent scout)
A) I'm seriously not interested in a theological discussion with you regarding details of Christian theology.
---------
ts:
Then explain this post and all the following "details".

--------
B) Nobody else is interested, either. This is a thread about common ground between Islam and Christianity.

C) If you have difficulty understanding the meaning or accepting the theological underpinnings of the notion of the Holy Spirit as a Person and an active member of the Godhead, you need to take that up with the Council of Carthage, convened somewhere around the end of the 3rd century, and with every major Christian denomination since, since the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and His inclusion in the Godhead, has been an article of Christian orthodoxy since that time (and probably about 200 years BEFORE that, in fact.)

D) Be careful about applying 20th century English definitions to theological concepts that have their originals outside the 20th century, and in languages other than English. Dictionaries are helpful, but can also be a source of error if applied where they don't have any real bearing.
-------

You take care of you, and I will take care of me.

Another heresy
of America's key Founders is they believed, contra orthodox Christianity, that most if not all religions were valid ways to God and thus "sound religions." Valid religions included not just Christianity but Unitarianism, Deism, Islam, Hinduism, Native American Spirituality and pagan Greco-Romanism. I've got quotations to prove all of this. But here is one from John Adams asserting Jews, Christians and Muslims all have "religion" or all worship the same God.

β€œIt has pleased the Providence of the first Cause, the Universal Cause, that Abraham should give religion not only to Hebrews but to Christians and Mahomitans, the greatest part of the modern civilized world.”

– John Adams to M.M. Noah, July 31, 1818.

Franklin though it appropriate for Muslims to preach Islam in Christian Churches:

"Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service."

http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/bfongw.htm

How many Christian Churches today would be willing to share their pulpits with Muslim preachers?


Touj
And what precisely is that which would make "Christians heads explode"? More nonsense and fakery from you. True to your (lack of) character.

Your FIRST post about how you dont want to engage in the "same tired old arguments". Objecting to THREE articles which HAPPENED to be on religion. NONE of them warranted your contemptuous dismissal.

Then, inSTEAD of going to "read a book" as you SAID you would, you proved yourself a TOTAL fake by hanging around and "debating" that VERY thing you said you had no interest in.

WHy could NOT you say you LOVE talking (and arguing) about religion? That isNT a crime you know.